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Israel Is GUILTY of Crimes Against Humanity

World  (tags: Gaza Blockade, Israeli State Terrorism, Zionist Gangster Ideology, Talmudic Tyrants )

- 3008 days ago -
"Israel's blockade on Gaza is illegal and a crime against humanity which the world can see. Individuals in the zionist Israeli government can be charged for war crimes and crimes of ethnically cleansing a race/group of people. . ."


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Matloob ul Hasan (81)
Friday June 25, 2010, 11:58 pm
Noted, thanks.

Yvonne Mendes Siblini (218)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 1:11 am
wats new?

Mack David (100)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 1:22 am
I could only stand 10 seconds........
The German Nazis treated the members of communities they wanted to exterminate better than this!
In the sense,
that the camps had shelter!!!
Not a piece of fabric for elemental protection............
The persecution of the Palestinians is greater in many ways than the atrocities of wwII.

. (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 3:22 am
noted~ Thanks Dave!

Past Member (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 6:10 am
Ethnic Cleansing in progress... the Auschwitz camp of the 21st century!

Whatever happened to the promise "Never Again?"

Or does that only apply to some?



Mack David (100)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 6:17 am
Exactly ATW:
"Never Again".
very heart-breaking!

Ashley N (17)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 10:47 am
Same old, same old (unfortunately)

Past Member (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 10:49 am
Thanx for this good post........

indian astrology

henry sena (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 12:22 pm
hamas has asked for this. i donot blame israel as they fighting for their life. all hames has to do is reconize that israel can excist and stop sending rockets every chance they get.

Yvonne Mendes Siblini (218)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 12:41 pm

Past Member (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 12:49 pm
Another friendless ignorant commentator!


Michael L (2)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 1:01 pm
Quit sending this lying swill out to the world, the land is Israels....

Aletta Kraan (146)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 1:12 pm
Really , and who said so ? they are taking away land that does not belong to them !!!

Stuart L (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 1:12 pm
How dare you use the term Holocaust! Have you ever seen photos of the emaciated Jews liberated from the Nazi death camps? None of the Gaza inhabitants look like they have ever missed a meal. I could say that this propaganda video assumes were are stupid, but it is a very valid assumption, being that most Americans know little about the persecution and threat that Israel has been living under since 1948, constantly being attacked by Muslim aggressive neighbors, to this day. The Holy War, jihad, vowed for years to push Israel into the sea. Your propaganda video did not even mention the Hamas takeover of Gaza. Israel gave up Gaza, and is now threatened by being rocketed daily by Hamas. If the blockade is not allowing anything in, as you say it is, where are the rockets and war materials coming from? The deaths on the one flotilla were only because hostile, non-humanitarian, aid was being transported on that one flotilla. How come the other flotillas met inspection and were able to go through, without incident? Where was the world when Israel was attacked in three wars by their Muslim neighbors?
If you value the United Nations now, why don't you value their decision to establish the State of Israel in 1948?
How can you believe people who persecute women, who kill their own sister if she has been raped, to restore "honor" to the family??? People who are so sexually depraved that they violate young boys, yet their spiritual reward for martydom is 72 virgins when they get to the other side of life. Wake up, Americans, and do your goddam homework instead of relying on 30 second sound bytes for your current events.

Shirley H (49)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 1:18 pm
:( :( :( So Sad.
Shirley H.

Vivien Green (153)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 1:18 pm
Noted Thank you Dave. Hoe many times I ask my self the question Why the Jewish people who's family members and friends were victims of "the Holocaust " in the second world, do not have empathy with the homeless and dispossessed Palestinians. They have Israel why deny people their ancestral homes.

Past Member (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 1:21 pm
Michael... I think the statement reflects on you! Palestinians shall be free!


Past Member (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 1:23 pm
Stuart, please stop making me laugh. Have you ever seen the photos of Palestinian kids massacred ON PURPOSE with shots to their heads? The Israeli Terror Forces are worse than Nazis!

Besides, it was Israel behind the Palestinian Holocaust!

Take that to the bank!


Past Member (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 1:26 pm
Here is what one Auschwitz Survivor said about Israel:

Auschwitz Survivor Slams Israel


Stuart L (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 1:33 pm
Atw Orld: How about a few documented facts based on your great knowledge of history.? If you are going to refute me, show me some documentation. Just because the man got out of Auschwitz 60 years ago, does that make him an expert on Palestine and Israeli self-defense? How about answering my points instead of adding emotional, non-documented fantasies of your own.

MarieAnne Duhem (93)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 1:52 pm
One day Israeli and Palestinians will have to yield, both of them. I hope to live long enough to see that happen and that a peace treaty is being made.The problem is, the two people are the same..., long time ago they have the same forebears... Unfortunately one can avail of more money than the other.

Past Member (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 2:13 pm
Stuart, you are a piece of "art" minus one letter! So you hate your own for speaking the truth? Pathetic.

But we're here to provide you with a few details bud... read these for starters.. and plenty more coming if you actually read.

Israeli Soldiers Speak Out
New Height of Racism
Israel Court Rules Shooting Palestinians OK
Completely Immoral
Jews Funding Nazis to Kill Jews
Snipers trained in Israel

P B (4)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 2:43 pm
This thread is filled with lies!!!
It would be uplifting IF you could ever be open to the truth and that is doubtful!! View this clip from NBC. All media has ignored Israel's compassionate work in the world, so this one was a surprise. NBC NEVER airs anything positive about Israel, so they should be commended for FINALLY showing the truth, unlike the DOCTORED junk the antisemitic posters on this thread enjoy repeating. Posting fabrications really shows the hatred toward Jewish People in some sectors!! Tiny minds filled with hate are really pathetic!!! Try to watch and understand what took place here. Dr. Snyderman and Brian Williams would NOT be part of a lie as are many of the posters in this thread. From January, 2010!!!

This is a great short clip about Israel's remarkable medical relief efforts in Haiti.

Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 10:39 AM
Subject: NBC News story on Israeli's helping in Haiti

Amazing what Israel is doing to help the people of Haiti. Take a look at this short news story from NBC Nightly News.

See the truth!!! >>


Mack David (100)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 2:48 pm
My question truly cis based on one feeling and thought.
How can any one of You disputing this issue( in various posts).
In Our times,with history to back Us ,Let a brother and sister be treated like this?
It is incredibly sad.
That it is debatable.
Are You blind?

P B (4)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 2:50 pm
Stuart L. Don't waste your time trying to educate the uneducated! I rarely return to a thread such as this because of the ignorant rants from bigoted individuals. I don't know why I wasted my time with this one. Just thought that perhaps "ONE" of the above might be open to the truth instead of fomenting hate!

Mack David (100)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 2:58 pm
Di- You should look for the definition of ignorance .Your rants and raves usually depict a voice needing to be heard that has no true information ,or anything productive to offer.
I think you should practice what you preach.
Since You wear peace like a banner you are perhaps,
Judgmental and could be hypocritical.
Persons carrying banners usually are.

Scott Freewheeler (45)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 3:14 pm
Thanks Dave, I would have preferred something a bit stronger given the circumstances but it is a good start. Many people that are under the media influence of the USA and Israel have no idea what is really going here on so any unbiased information is positive.

linda b (186)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 3:22 pm
This video trully upset me, to actually see how my dear friend in Gaza and his people are forced to live is heart breaking. This should never have been allowed to hapen. God Bless Gaza and may she and her people have freedom and peace.Thank You Dave.

Stuart L (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 3:26 pm
Di B. You are entirely correct about the futility of coming back to these threads. But there are informed and open people reading this as well. I do not expect ever to reach the intellectual level of ATW orld whose answer to me is so profound that he writes:>>Stuart, you are a piece of "art" minus one letter! Now, that is brilliant. I asked him to refute me. So he cannot put anything into his own words. Instead, he gives me 6 biased references that I do not have time to read. How about using your own words, atw orld, instead of biased references? Then, because I do not value the opinion of someone witing against the Israelis, and his only credentials are that he left Auschwitz 60 years ago, atw orld tells me>>So you hate your own for speaking the truth? Pathetic. " My own? Now he assumes that I am Jewish because I have sided with Israel? Such logic! I have seen fat-ass parents sit home and send their 12 year old boys in Palestine to throw rocks at Israeli peace-keeping forces. That is cowardess.
And, Marie-Anne. The Jews and the Muslims do not come from the same ancestors. The two religions are very different. Jews do not hunt down to kill (fatah) people who speak against the Jewish god, or their heroes. Remember Simon Rushdie? Jews do not fly into the United States to crash planes into buildings. Jews took a small strip of land in the desert and built beautiful cities, while the surrounding areas remain barren. Jews do not kill people because they belong to a different religion. Jews do not force people to convert to Judaism, or else kill them. atw orld, refute my points in your own words. Show the people on this blog that you have a brain of your own.

Stuart L (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 3:33 pm
Linda. Do those people in the video look starving to you? Better see that video again, Linda. By the way, Linda. Your words seem so compassionate. Do you feel compassion for the Israelis, being rocketed daily from Gaza by Hamas?

Past Member (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 3:42 pm
Mack D... Linda, I guess Goldstone, IDr. Finkelstien, Dr. Sholomo Sand and Rich Forer (ex AIPAC member) and even the Israeli soldiers - are all wrong and this friendless person happens to be right!

What a joke!



Scott Freewheeler (45)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 3:46 pm
Good grief Stuart, are you so hopelessly deluded? Where on Earth are you gathering this information from? I LoL'd when I read "Israeli peace-keeping forces" (inside Gaza presumably?). Have you seen film footage of Gaza? I suppose that is just a stage set like the Moon landing? In places Gaza and the surface of the Moon have dreadful similarities.

I guess you are from the USA or Canada because the news is very different evidently everywhere else in the World but I am even surprised that it is as bad as that. Do you not wonder if your sources are not lies when so many others have the opposite impression of events?

Dave C (867)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 3:49 pm
It's blatantly clear and blindingly obvious from the comments of the brainwashed Care2 Zionist Murderers Supporters Club here, that the old saying is perfectly correct - 'There's None so Blind as Those Who Will Not See'.

Paige Boily (4)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 4:15 pm

Deborah M (8)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 4:34 pm
Maybe the Hamas should stop bombing the Israeli's. I do not feel sorry for these Palestinians. You have no respect for human life. Look at how you treat women. Well, change your ways. Try being a little civilized. You want me to feel sorry for you-don't think it will happen. How do we even know this tape is real? Sorry but I have seen many Jewish people do so much good and I just can't think of any Palestinian that jumps into my thoughts of being a loving, caring, compassionate, giving person---and yes, I am from The United States of America.

Past Member (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 4:52 pm
stuart l a lot if not most of those emaciated bodies rescued from the camps were catholics. the world chose to move on and also not to get into situations where they are reviled. thank the zionists for the continuing friction. aim your remarks at your own people. their present course is leading to a repeat of history.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 5:00 pm

I am asking you -- PLEASE -- not to segregate, nor minimize -- the UNBELIEVABLE HORRORS of the Holocaust.

As a young child, I learned of them -- and to this date, I cannot find the forgiveness within me to condone, nor forgive, them. (and the nightmares and visions of such an existence still continue).

BUT, I will not accept any verbiage that minimizes the tragedy.

That does NOT mean that Israelis have "free reign" to replicate the atrocities; in fact, it makes it even LESS FORGIVABLE.

But, I cannot sanction any words that lessen the real horror.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 5:01 pm

Thank you for posting this, Dave.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 5:13 pm

Please respect this horrific chapter in European history . . . much the same as the attempted genocide of MY OWN ancestors -- who were this nation's inhabitants at the time of the European incursion.

An ugly chapter cannot be erased merely because it was uncomplimentary to the "conquerors." (To do so, is to deny an entire people the due respect of their true history.)

Past Member (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 5:17 pm
excuse me, are you saying that by point out that all the victims were not entirely jewish minimizes the tragedy?? the capo's were all jewish. a man named Richard Zaharsky, a polish catholic, lost his whole family to the actions of a capo. he later found this man, now a diamond merchat, living in London,(in an apartment adjacent to roger moore) he hid in the mans closet and that night killed him. it was dubbed 'the james bond murder on account of roger moore. Richard with his tatood number was sentenced quietly when it was learned that he was catholic.

Cindy B (61)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 5:19 pm
Stuart L, I do agree with you that the behaviors of certain Arabs are egregious -- killing of family members, intensity re religion, etc. Still, I feel that's just a small percentage of the population. I certainly am against oppressive regimes such as the Taliban and the, ah, less than stellar treatment of women in the Middle East across the board. However I've lived in Israel and witnessed for myself -- witnessed repeatedly and copiously! -- the intensity of the Jewish personality. The Jews were often rude and harsh, quite bursting with the great meaning and importance of BEING JEWISH -- but the Palestinians were not so in kind. If I stood in front of a Jewish stand in the market to take a picture, I'd often be yelled at and told to "move on! You're blocking my stand! (NO, I wasn't!) Never anything like that with the Arabs, so sweet, pleasant and laid-back. I'd often be wooed INTENSELY by a Jew, insisting I move right into his flat -- right now! -- when we'd known each other 5 minutes. The Jews dance in the streets so hard, and pray at the Wall so hard, you think they're going to have a coronary! There were just SO many reasons I chose to hang out with the Arabs -- though, mind you, I'd always had a great fondness for Jews and had even wanted to BE one as a kid. So this wasn't just selective perception.... Anyway, I've always respected Jewish intellectuality -- but I have to say: surely they know that the whole world is watching. Surely they know the Gaza blockade is causing terrific hardships of every kind! Surely they know we all are aware they're inflicting MUCH more damage and death on the Palestinians than vice versa! Hubris or no, for heaven's sake, surely they should be able to see what horrible press this makes for them, not to mention fomenting the hatred that only leads to more of the conflict they so decry. Yet they refuse to see any of it, even razing more Palestinian homes when they're under the most world scrutiny, as if to say NYAH, NYAH, NYAH. Smart? NO!!!!!! And perfectly in keeping with everything I personally witnessed about them. So NO, they may not throw acid on their wives and daughters, but in their own ways they are allowing themselves to become as repugnant in the eyes of the world as if they did.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 5:22 pm

I sincerely hope that YOU, with your simple-minded "logic," are not challenging me (in particular, with your nonsense, about Roger Moore, adjacent apartments, tatoos . . . OMG, give me strength!).

I have neither the time, nor patience, for any more of your rambling.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 5:23 pm

(Last remark directed to Laurence.)

Past Member (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 5:27 pm
yes cindy, in Los Angeles the southern part of La Cienega is made up of car dealers. buying from the israeli dealers expect to be lied to and stolen from. their view of a succdesfull deal is getting the better of the customer, go further south and all the dealers are arabs here i was treated very well, the dealings were fair and the goal was definetly win win. In miami the attitude of the israelis is 'well i've done it now, so what? they build without permits, only honour debts if forced, no hanshakes here

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 5:28 pm

WTF are you talking about, Laurence?

ALL Israelis are the SAME?

Bigotry IS bigotry.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 5:29 pm

BTW, I lived in Los Angeles for over 25 years.

Marcheal G (6)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 5:31 pm
Why can't people get along.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 5:31 pm

La Cienega is a big street. And all Jews are not alike.

(On this issue, I happen to be pro-Palestinian -- but I DETEST stereotypes.)

Retire your caricatures.

Past Member (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 5:32 pm
richard zaharsky sits in prison for killing a jewish capo who murdered his family. all the capos were jewish, yes a simple fact, the other victims didn't want the job.
now israel is, again, guilty of crimes, a simple fact

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 5:33 pm

I'd expect nothing more from you than "simple" facts.

Past Member (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 5:41 pm
all israelis are the same? well yes, they chose to move to israel. to be there, and they all accept the situation and the current administation. just as israel denies palestinians their rights because in israels opinion the chose the wrong party, Hamas, to lead them. despite that famous anti-semite jimmy carter sstating that the election was fair. the residents of israel, should they be collectively punished for their choice?

Dale Must (20)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 5:41 pm
The Palestinian country is done without an infrastructure-roads, schools,etc. They have done nothing to the land or to help themselves. It was the Israelis that developed their own land. Israel gives more land to the Palestinians and they are mortared and bombed from those adjacent land. You can blame also the "Red Crescent"(the Arab Red Cross) and the wealthier Arab countries. Why don't these organizations and countries pour some much needed capital into Palestine? If the Palestinians converted their hate for the Israelis into productive labor, they would have peace and prosperity.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 5:41 pm

I rest my case.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 5:44 pm

Commit Yourself To The Truth -- Cutting Through the Confusion About Israel/Palestine
Israeli Chair of Gaza Flotilla Attack Investigation Does Not Believe Panel Should Exist
NOT In My Jewish Name!

Rebecca G (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 5:47 pm
It always takes two sides to make a war... if you don't believe me then read all the posts above - if all these people were put in a room I'm guessing there would be blood shed also. It would be nice if humans could learn to live and love each others differences but I feel this can never be. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 5:49 pm

Ummmmmmmmmm . . . Rebecca? Do NOT cross your fingers (and announce it).


Past Member (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 5:57 pm
dale, palestinians don't have public buildings because they were all bombed.
well said rebecca, scientology talks about 'third person invisible' two poeple or countries don't fight, there is always a third person, a mother in law, iran sayings things like 'Oh you shouldn't be treated like that. England had great fun with france and spain like this

Past Member (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 5:59 pm
but look i think israel is guilty of crimes and should be punished, that's the statement. does anyone not agree with that?

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 6:00 pm

Laurence, after reading the majority of comments here, I was SURPRISED to learn that we are on the same side.

Please try NOT to alienate your sympathizers.

Past Member (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 6:08 pm
not bad fr 107 year carol. i visited a school in wales that doesn't allow any competive games involving sides, the children were very nice all pushing each other forward. so let's not be on the same side, but individualy agree that israel was wron to change the border, build the wall, bomb and drop magnesioum on gaza, assasinate the man in dubai, without money owed to gaza, because they voted for hamas, and for atttacking Jimmy Carter

David Gould (155)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 6:10 pm
The Shoah will never be forgotten but it belongs to sixty six years ago.

The compassion of Israel was seen by the world as the fifth most military country of the world bombed a nearly defenseless people into the rubble strewn streets destroting over a third of the Gaza infastructure...and in the process executing women and children...I agree Hamas is wrong to fire a few rockets that are really overgrown fireworks in retalliation for year after year of piteless siege.

The compassion and 'law' abiding Israel was seen in the way it attacked a peaceful relief convoy 80 miles off its shores and murdered a prearranged number of 'activists' that they had identified days in advance...some with many bullets point blank to the head.

I would listen more to Israel if it did not steal the identities of forniegn nationals and using fake identies state political assinations in other soveriegn other words until they start behaving within the confines of international law they will be treated like the vernin they have become.

The solution is in their hands...we are merely reflecting Israel's totally criminal activities...and only over the last few months...if we were to look back on 62 years of land theft, murder and ethnic cleansing then...well...facts facts people are not interested in facts only your own hate-filled rhetoric.

Of this I am certain. Palestine will be free...and that I promice you.

Ellen W (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 6:21 pm
Thanks for the link. I agree that Israel is guilty of crimes against humanity. Gaza is an open air prison with many children as inmates. Israel looks like it is trying to exterminate the whole population, letting them die slow and painful deaths. Israel allows toys in but no building materials or enough medical supplies.
Speaking of crimes against humanity, the US is guilty there too. I guess that's why they don't feel they can call Israel out on their atrocious behavior. It's also good "business", the US military industrial complex and US tax dollars are funding the extermination of Palestinians in Gaza.

Amber T (1)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 6:43 pm
Ever hear of the American Holocaust, American Indians were the victims.

Mary Donnelly (47)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 6:54 pm
Thanks Dave for post. Thanks everyone for discussion. I agree with Ellen W.

Does anyone disagree that without at least tacit support from the USA Israel would being doing what it is? This matter might be a good one for the mid-term elections.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 6:57 pm

Thanks, Amber.

Past Member (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 7:08 pm
anyone can declare title to land as long as they can defend it. the united states defends israels title. without the US could they hold on to it?, no they would appeal to russia. camp out on the moon, declare title, try defending it when the us, russia or china show up

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 7:08 pm

Uh, Laurence????

"not bad fr 107 year carol. i visited a school in wales that doesn't allow any competive games involving sides, the children were very nice all pushing each other forward. so let's not be on the same side"

First, I'm 109. Second, my name is spelled Carole. Third, considering your lack of cognitive and social skills thus far, I'm not convinced your schoolmates were pushing you forward because they liked you.

However, I DO agree with this point: "so let's not be on the same side."

Past Member (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 7:12 pm
yes amber, and they put a jacksson on the tweny dollar bill.

ei k. (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 7:16 pm

Past Member (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 7:17 pm
Just a little defensive carly? and yes usually i only have to show up

Past Member (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 7:22 pm
ei. k. welcome i see that you joined especally to make you lovely posting. say hello to stuart

ei k. (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 7:25 pm

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 7:26 pm

Thank you, ei . . . I agree.

ei k. (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 7:30 pm
laurence B . Thank You , peace ei k.

ei k. (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 7:32 pm
hello stuart

ei k. (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 7:35 pm
Just Carole , Thank You , peace ei k.

Past Member (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 7:38 pm
yes yes ei k but your only purpose is to devalue our remarks by mirroring them in a rediculous way. Listen ei, this will work on karol so you aren't entirely wasting you time, and i find it amusing so keep it up,
shalom ei

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 7:41 pm

And peace be unto you, ei.

(laurence wants no peace with ANYONE.)

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 7:50 pm

والسلام عليكم

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 7:57 pm

لورنس لا تريد السلام مع أحد.

Past Member (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 8:01 pm
صلى الله عليه والكافر. وينبغي الحصول على غرفة كارول مع صديقها الجديد

Stuart L (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 8:02 pm
Well, ei K. Are the "brothers and sisters" in Gaza the only ones you are crying for? Did you cry for the innocent, civilian Israelis in shopping centers and pizza parlors who were maimed and killed when suicide bombers blew them up? How was your compassion then? What about the three Muslim wars, especially the Yom Kippur War, attacking Israel on it's holiest day? Is that a little before your time? How much did you cry then, ei W? When Muslims lost territory in those wars, Israel returned some of that land. Isn't it unheard of to return land that was lost by the aggressors. Israel tried to make peace. When has Israel ever tried to take over land that was not theirs? They have given back land that was lost. All they wanted to do was to have peace and not be rocketed and attacked. What about the scud missles in the Gulf War in the early 90s? Look at all the land that the Palestinians have, surrounding little Israel. Isn't that enough for them? Palestinians were starving and non-productive way before Israel became a state, but did their wealthy oil-producing fellow Muslims give them any aid at all? All they did was to tell them that Israel was going to attack them, which never happened. Christian and Muslim Arabs live within the state of Israel unthreatened and in peace. They do not want to leave Israel. All this unrest that you are crying about has to do with only one thing: Israel's self defense. Do you blame Israel for wanting to stay unattacked by its neighbors? Are you crying every time you hear rockets daily going to Israel sent by Hamas, supported by your beloved Gazans? Stop crying and dry your eyes and read books on the history of the Middle East.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 8:08 pm

كلامك الكراهية ، وليس عندي غرفة في حياتي لشخص مثل لك. وآمل أن الحب يجد طريقه إلى قلبك.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 8:11 pm

غودنيت ، Laurence.It يفوت هنا ، وأنا تعبت ، وأتمنى لكم أي سوء.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 8:12 pm

وأتمنى لكم ليلة طيبة ، لورانس.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 8:13 pm

And, I wish a good evening to all in this forum.

Peace be unto us ALL.

Stuart L (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 8:13 pm
Your fluency in Arabic is so very impressive. I guess you do not want us real Americans to read it. Are you planning another flight into a building to kill more thousands here in the U.S.? By the way, ei,W? I forgot to ask you if you cried for dead Americans on 9/11/01?

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 8:25 pm

You, TOO, could be fluent in another language. (a novelty for Americans)

I am Native American -- so NONE of you speak MY language. However, I am aware that this site has visitors from many countries. As such, and as a gesture of COURTESY (look it up, Stuart . . . it's actually an English word), I have a translator as an application.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 8:27 pm

الى جانب ذلك ، أنا أستمتع سخيف مع البلهاء.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 8:31 pm

(And the parties responsible for 9/11 all spoke English.)

Past Member (0)
Saturday June 26, 2010, 9:27 pm
קרול לישון היטב, ובזמן שאתה עושה ילד פלסטיני אלך רעב

Saturday June 26, 2010, 11:44 pm
All is noted thank you.
And now a nice Web Site for every one.

Road 90 is the longest road in ISRAEL.,
starting in the City of Metula in the North and
going to Eilat in the South.
This Web Site has some thing for every one,
enjoy and explore :))


Dave C (867)
Sunday June 27, 2010, 12:29 am
Whatever happened to the Jews in the past does NOT give them carte blanche to act like savages Now!

eileen k (1)
Sunday June 27, 2010, 1:12 am
TY, Dave C. for your post; and, TY, ATW, Laurence, Just Carole, & others who spoke the truth on Israel's crimes against the people of Gaza. As for Stuart, Di & Cindy, it's long time that you remove your blinders and open yourselves up to the TRUTH. Israel is GUILTY of war crimes and crimes against humanity; that is a fact. If any other country treated Gaza's civilian population the way Israel does, that country would've been ostracized by the Western (aka Zionist) press and isolated.

It was Israel that perpetrated murderous acts of piracy against the six-ship convoy of peace activists on May 31 under cover of darkness. Eight Turks and one American were killed; many others missing. Scores were kidnapped from the six ships and held for hours - even days - their cell phones, video cameras, etc. stolen from them. To top it off, Turkey had been the strongest Muslim "ally" of Israel; was even going to participate in military exercises with the Jewish State; and is also a member of NATO. Hello, Turkey, welcome to the list of Israel's enemies. The murderous raid on the peace convoy had alienated Israel's sole ally in the Muslim world.

In June of 1967, it was ISRAEL that attacked the USS Liberty - also in international waters - killing 34 US officers and sailors and injuring 170 more. Had the Liberty been sunk and all aboard killer, none of us today would've ever known about this blatant aggression; since the Zionist-controlled media and government never mentioned it.

Israel, a Nation That Shall Dwell Alone. The Zionist State has NO real allies. Why? Its deceptive and atrocious behavior toward the rest of the world - including the West - is the reason.

Yvonne Mendes Siblini (218)
Sunday June 27, 2010, 1:15 am
Yet, we have not come up with a solution, anyone has acidity so far?

Hermon Mihranian (8)
Sunday June 27, 2010, 3:35 am
Let me remind the Israeli government that what happend in the past does in no way give them right to act in such a brutal way against the Palestenian citizens in Gaza . The nonhuman acts inposed by Israel will have a negativ inpact on all Jews. Palestinians have the full right to live a normal life in there homeland. Israel is treating the Palestinians as the Germon Nazi treated the Jews at that time.
Dr.Hermon Mihranian

Ahmad S (3)
Sunday June 27, 2010, 3:47 am
Well done Dave and All shame on Israeli administration

Edward M (8)
Sunday June 27, 2010, 3:53 am
America can stop this abuse right now if it really wanted to.
However, what I can understand is the UK acting as a sidekick to a major power, that being the United States.
What I cannot understand is, using the same roles as above but changing the UK with Israel, that the USA is the sidekick.
I hope that you Americans can appreciate being lead by the nose by a Country the size of New Jersey and New Hampshire combined.

Scott Freewheeler (45)
Sunday June 27, 2010, 6:11 am
I don’t condone any part of the Israeli occupation; collective punishment, imprisonment, the blockade, random murder of civilians including women and children or the policy of shooting at unarmed civilians also women and children BUT I think some of us to have to be careful to qualify exactly who are the perpetrators of this evil.

I won’t argue that the above atrocities are not the will of most of the Israeli government but I strongly disagree that all Israeli people are flawed. Some of them are dedicating their lives for peace. If it had not have been for Turkey’s firm stance and demands that all be released, the two very brave Israeli citizens (peace activists) on board the flotilla would have spent a lifetime in jail. I realise the two in question are of Arab ancestry but this only reinforces my point. Not all Israeli citizens are even Israeli in origin.

In particular we must be very careful not to equate Zionism with Judaism. They couldn’t be further apart. “They are incompatible and irreconcilable: If one is a good Jew, one cannot be a Zionist; if one is a Zionist, one cannot be a good Jew”. (G. Neuburger).

Many Jews are fighting Zionism and see it as a “rebellion against G-d and treason to the Jewish people”. ‘Jew’ is not a race; as Zionists and Hitler would have us believe. Judaism is a choice of faith to which all are welcome and treated equally.

There is even going to be a Jewish flotilla of humanitarian aid to Gaza in July, God willing. Plans are already underway from Jews living in Germany and 9 other countries. On board will be approximately 40 activists, including an 85-year-old Israeli Holocaust survivor. Their impact will be great and the risk to themselves enormous. So let us send them our prayers and support. I sincerely admire them.

So although it takes a little longer to qualify exactly to whom we are referring, it is a most worthwhile use of our time. It is upsetting to be grouped together with people who perform actions that you strongly disagree with or are inhumane. It also will detract from the point you are making about the ones who are responsible. Generalisation and all forms of racism, be it cultural, institutional or taxonomic is an outdated concept that should be left in the past.

Elderberry T (201)
Sunday June 27, 2010, 6:32 am
Dale ....blaming the victims , insulting the Palestinians i.e " They have done nothing to help themselves" etc etc really offensive rascist garbage!

Tx for posting Dave.

Alamzeb Khan (401)
Sunday June 27, 2010, 6:37 am
thanks for this post

pete O (242)
Sunday June 27, 2010, 8:18 am
Ty Dave I unconditionally agree

Past Member (0)
Sunday June 27, 2010, 8:51 am
anyone who has sat with a jewish family, attended temple or hadasa, read the jewih writings knows that judaism is a beutiful. But Israel, what is that supposed to be? One enormous temple representing all sects? impossible. Judaism cannot have one face it belonngs amongst us all and the existense of Israel not as a country but as a 'Jewish State' denies us all. Israel is a crime against humanity just as taking all the flowers arming them and placing them into there own country would be a crime. the world should be moving away from borders not finding new one's

Past Member (0)
Sunday June 27, 2010, 9:11 am
might help if they drop the bit about being 'chosen' and the rest of us being 'goyem' maybe one of them could go back into that cave where they found the old testament and emerge with an editorial from God explaing the 'misunderstanding in the first edition :)

Past Member (0)
Sunday June 27, 2010, 9:14 am

Thomas D (12)
Sunday June 27, 2010, 12:35 pm
Noted, Thanks.

Judy Beasley (0)
Sunday June 27, 2010, 1:28 pm
Both sides are doing the same thing to each other. The Jewish people are defending their land and everyone needs to leave them alone. War is not a nice thing. It's just as bad as what the gov't almost everywhere is slaughtering the innocent babies and animals in the shelters who have not committed any crime. All I have to say is "God is watching you" and taking someone's property is wrong. Stop doing the wrong and the fighting will stop.

Liliana D (125)
Sunday June 27, 2010, 2:17 pm
I want to say on the matter only that history taught us that NO ARTIFICIAL STATE IS MENT TO LAST. Israel is an artificial state. I feel deep sorry for ALL people in pain or need, both sides.

Ian N (13)
Sunday June 27, 2010, 3:46 pm

Past Member (0)
Sunday June 27, 2010, 5:09 pm
If Isreal is perpetrating crimes against humanity, lets not forget our own country where less than 100 years ago blacks were lynched because they were blacks. When you treat a people like second class citizens they begin to either feel like it or rebel. Neither is a good choice it leads to death and destruction. The Isreali people have been fighting for thousands of years to survive as a people How dare we judge when 250 years ago we fought to be free and we are still doing it one way or another

Ian N (13)
Sunday June 27, 2010, 5:42 pm
More of the same from the Holocaust Deniers, Anti-Semites, and Islamo-fascists!

Past Member (0)
Sunday June 27, 2010, 6:41 pm

Early Palestinian nationalism was influenced heavily by Nazism. While other nations have disavowed fascism (Germany and Italy, for example) and have since developed into thriving democracies, the Palestinians have not.

Half of the world's major terror groups are Palestinian or have a Palestinian agenda. For the first time in the history, Hamas - the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood and the ideological cousin of al-Qaeda - has gained full control over contiguous territory and population, and has now effectively become a state government without real opponents. Every Palestinian "political party" of note - Hamas, Fatah and PFLP - operates an armed militia listed as terrorist by the US and EU. Hamas and Fatah execute Palestinian captives, attack Palestinian hospitals, put journalists at serious risk. Hamas and Fatah formed jointly the Palestinian government of, by and for terrorists, now torn apart by unprecedented levels of violence between Palestinian factions. Since the 2006/7 Hamas-Fatah civil war, two rival Palestinian "governments" deny their legitimacy reciprocally and "rule" two politically and geographically separated non-states in the Gaza Strip (Hamas) and West Bank (Fatah). The Palestinian president refers to Hamas as "terrorist murderers", albeit only after Hamas tried to assassinate him, and outlawed the Hamas militia. More Palestinians were killed by their brethren than by anyone else. Both Fatah and Hamas do not recognize Israel's right to exist.


Sunday June 27, 2010, 6:53 pm
I guess I'm not in Kansas anymore.

Stuart, Di, et al:

"None of the Gaza inhabitants look like they have ever missed a meal."

"UN World Health Organization (WHO) officials are concerned by the warning signs, including rising malnutrition indicators - like increased cases of stunting, wasting and underweight children - and continuing high rates of anaemia among children and pregnant women. In April 2008, UNICEF estimated there were about 255,000 under-five children in Gaza, with about 26,265 at risk of malnutrition, and 657 most likely to be severely wasted."

"constantly being attacked by Muslim aggressive neighbors, to this day. "

1948 Arab–Israeli War - Arabs

1956 Sinai War - started by Israel "In November 1956 we had a choice." - Menachem Begin

1967 Six-Day War - Israel
"In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him. " - Menachem Begin

War of Attrition - Egypt

1973 Yom Kippur War - Egypt

1978 Invasion of Lebanon [Operation Litani] - Israel

1982 Lebanon War [Operation Peace for the Galilee] - Israel

2002 Operation Defensive Wall

2006 Lebanon War - Israel

Operation Cast Lead. - Israel

"Try to watch and understand what took place here. Dr. Snyderman and Brian Williams would NOT be part of a lie as are many of the posters in this thread."

My only response to this is do you believe in Santa Claus?

"Amazing what Israel is doing to help the people of Haiti."

"At a time when our country is under media attack on the basis of harsh and anti-Semitic reports, and we are forced to contend with terrorists who have assumed the winning image of victims of war, one could say that the Haiti disaster is the best thing that could have happened to us.Do any of the other countries helping Haiti have a press unit with them? And are those other helping countries getting a splash from the USA MSM?" - Tamir Haas, Maariv

"because of the ignorant rants from bigoted individuals."

I don't see anyone of you posting anything factual and any citation.

"Do those people in the video look starving to you? "
What an ignorant thing to say.

"Maybe the Hamas should stop bombing the Israeli's. I just can't think of any Palestinian that jumps into my thoughts of being a loving, caring, compassionate, giving person"

The answer in the above lies with the maybes.

Maybe if Israel hadn't occupied Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem for the past 43 years, no one would be shooting rockets over the fence. Maybe if Israel didn't build a big, huge illegal wall which has nothing to do with security with its' meandering path choking off populations from the outside world, no one would be lobbing rockets over the fence. Maybe, if Israel didn't violate the Palestinian people's fundamental human rights, the Palestinian people would have anything to revolt against.

"all israelis are the same? well yes, they chose to move to israel. to be there, and they all accept the situation and the current administation. "

Racism at its best. Let's just categorize everyone together and then we call hate everyone that is different than us. I am baffled by the above statement.

"The Palestinian country is done without an infrastructure-roads, schools,etc. They have done nothing to the land or to help themselves. "

Kind of hard to get anything going when you are locked down on a whim, have to go through checkpoints to go to another village. Try to deliver your goods to be sold when a 10 minute drive has now turned into a 1/2 adventure, thanks to the barrier wall. How to build an infrastructure, when everything you build gets torn down.

Sunday June 27, 2010, 7:01 pm
As for the wars in which Israel didn't strike first, maybe this may bring a little light to the matter.

"Never mind that [when asked that Syrians initiated the war from the Golan Heights]. After all, I know how at least 80 percent of the clashes there started. In my opinion, more than 80 percent, but let's talk about 80 percent. It went this way: We would send a tractor to plough someplace where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance farther, until in the end Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was. I did that, and Laskov and Chara [Zvi Tsur, Rabin's predecessor as chief of staff] did that, Yitzhak did that, but it seems to me that the person who most enjoyed these games was Dado (David Elazar) [Moshe Dayan, 1976]

Bob Algeron (47)
Sunday June 27, 2010, 8:07 pm
Margaret, somehow you always avoid to answer a simple question: Hamas openly calls for destruction of Israel and genocide of the Jews. Israel and Hamas are at war. No warring parties help their enemies as much, as Israel helped Gaza: The Allies let no help to countries occupied by Nazis, forget about Germany itself.

Why do you want to obligate Israel to help Hamas and to provide good nutritious rationst for the terrorists and murderers?


Monday June 28, 2010, 3:44 am
The sticking point of “recognition” has been used as a litmus test to judge Palestinians. Yet as I have said before, a state may have a right to exist, but not absolutely at the expense of other states, or more important, at the expense of millions of human individuals and their rights to justice. Why should anyone concede Israel’s “right” to exist, when it has never even acknowledged the foundational crimes of murder and ethnic cleansing by means of which Israel took our towns and villages, our farms and orchards, and made us a nation of refugees?

Why should any Palestinian “recognize” the monstrous crime carried out by Israel’s founders and continued by its deformed modern apartheid state, while he or she lives 10 to a room in a cinderblock, tin-roof United Nations hut? These are not abstract questions, and it is not rejectionist simply because we have refused to abandon the victims of 1948 and their descendants.

As for the 1988 charter, if every state or movement were to be judged solely by its foundational, revolutionary documents or the ideas of its progenitors, there would be a good deal to answer for on all sides. The American Declaration of Independence, with its self-evident truth of equality, simply did not countenance (at least, not in the minds of most of its illustrious signatories) any such status for the 700,000 African slaves at that time; nor did the Constitution avoid codifying slavery as an institution, counting “other persons” as three-fifths of a man.

The writings of Israel’s “founders” — from Herzl to Jabotinsky to Ben Gurion — make repeated calls for the destruction of Palestine’s non-Jewish inhabitants: “We must expel the Arabs and take their places.” A number of political parties today control blocs in the Israeli Knesset, while advocating for the expulsion of Arab citizens from Israel and the rest of Palestine, envisioning a single Jewish state from the Jordan to the sea. Yet I hear no clamor in the international community for Israel to repudiate these words as a necessary precondition for any discourse whatsoever. The double standard, as always, is in effect for Palestinians.

I, for one, do not trouble myself over “recognizing” Israel’s right to exist — this is not, after all, an epistemological problem; Israel does exist, as any Rafah boy in a hospital bed, with IDF shrapnel in his torso, can tell you. This dance of mutual rejection is a mere distraction when so many are dying or have lived as prisoners for two generations in refugee camps. As I write these words, Israeli forays into Gaza have killed another 15 people, including a child. Who but a Jacobin dares to discuss the “rights” of nations in the face of such relentless state violence against an occupied population?

I look forward to the day when Israel can say to me, and millions of other Palestinians: “Here, here is your family’s house by the sea, here are your lemon trees, the olive grove your father tended: Come home and be whole again.” Then we can speak of a future together." - Moua Abu Marzook , 2007

The above pretty well sums it up. For the record, I have never supported Hamas, but certainly support Israel's right to exist. It seems pretty hypocritical for Israel to insist that the Palestinians acknowledge Israel's right to exist, whereas Israel denies the Palestinian existence, denies their livelihood, demolishes their houses and controls their movements. While Israel is crying out that they are defending themselves against annihilation, they are systematically killing off the Palestinians. Has anyone demanded Israel to renounce the following:

"“We must do everything to insure they (the Palestinians) never do return.” Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. “The old will die and the young will forget.” -Chairman Heilbrun

“We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves.” -Chairman Heilbrun

“We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel… Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours.” -Rafael Eitan

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."-Yoram Bar Porath,

“We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters” -Yitzhak Rabin

“It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.”-Yoram Bar Porath

“We Jews, we are the destroyers and will remain the destroyers. Nothing you can do will meet our demands and needs. We will forever destroy because we want a world of our own.” -Chaim Weizmann

“When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about itwill be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle.”-Raphael Eitan

[The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs.”-Menahim Begin

Are you trying to justify what Israel does based on Germany didn't help the Jews while exterminating them? Or are you using it as a litmus test to say that Israel treats its' enemies better than Nazi Germany did? If so, that is a ridiculous statement. Germany was tried for war crimes, it is not be used as the template for abiding by laws governing conflict.

Abdessalam D (145)
Monday June 28, 2010, 5:04 am
Beyond depraved : Israel prevents delivery of oxygen to hospitals:
Seven oxygen machines donated to the Palestinain Authority by a Norwegian
development agency were seized by Israeli officials en route to hospitals in
the West Bank and Gaza, the Ramallah-based health ministry said. []

Abdessalam D (145)
Monday June 28, 2010, 5:07 am
Ethnic cleansing: Israeli foreign minister wants Palestinians
stripped of citizenship and relocated:
Avigdor Lieberman, Israel's far-right foreign minister, set out this week
what he called a "blueprint for a resolution to the conflict" with the
Palestinians that demands most of the country's large Palestinian minority
be stripped of citizenship and relocated outside Israel's future borders.

Judith H (27)
Monday June 28, 2010, 11:38 am
This just shows how barbaric and under developed some nations still are

Monday June 28, 2010, 3:28 pm
Judith - Are you going to post the same comment on every thread? Just wondering which nation you are calling barbaric and underdeveloped?

Past Member (0)
Monday June 28, 2010, 3:52 pm
Israel is not a race margeret

Bob Algeron (47)
Monday June 28, 2010, 4:19 pm

If you are upset with Avigdor Liberman position that Arab Israeli citizen, who associate themselves with Palestinians and hate Israel, should be given Palestinian citizenship, and THE TERRITORY where they live should be given to the future PA state, i.e. no personal relocation.

Why are you NOT upset at Jordanians, who recently stripped tens of thousands of Palestinians from Jordanian citizenship, even though Jordan is a country where Palestinians are the majority?

Or, why are you not upset at Syria, which keeps hundreds of thousands of Palestinians locked as "refugees" into concentration camps, without any rights?

Or, at your own Egyptian government, which decided to strip Egyptians married to Israels from the Egyptian citizenship, while allowing second citizenship to all others?


Bob Algeron (47)
Monday June 28, 2010, 4:21 pm
Laurence, your a correct: Jews are not a race, it is just a nation. And Arabs too ares not a race, just another nation. Peace to all!

Bob Algeron (47)
Monday June 28, 2010, 4:31 pm
Margaret, you mixed a number of points:
1. The issue of resettling Arab refugees lies on Arab states, no matter how much in denial they are. They started wars, asked Arabs to leave and, after being defeated, instead of offering human rights to their won brothers locked them into concentration camps and said: UN will feed you, and we will use you as a fodder cannon.

2. Palestinian recognition as a Jewish state means that those refugees who will be willing to come to Palestine will have a right to settle only in Arab Palestine, not in Jewish Palestine - a.k.a. Israel. The absence of this recognition means an absence of peace.

3. Israel gave Palestinians equal rights, something which not a single Arab country did. Israel founded did not object to have Arab citizen.

4. I asked you to prove me a single quote, and you could not. Now you are giving me tens of quotes. How can I believe you?

Past Member (0)
Monday June 28, 2010, 5:10 pm
Bob, i said Israel is not a race.
how nice of israel to give the palestians equal rights, rather like an unwanted guest allowing me to sit in my garden.

Israel is a criminal enterprise. it's citizens who turn a blind eye to the goings on or say 'just following orders' know that they are false. every israeli is responsable for every death every maiming, every desease through lack of care and poisoned water. every non graduating student. every israeli has the option to tear up their passport, offering to return when the israel they dreamed about(the one that excludes goyum?) exists

Past Member (0)
Monday June 28, 2010, 9:48 pm
we have some nice people, from a long way away, i'm afraid they didn't get along very well in their own countries, so we thought we'd move them next to you. What! you don't recognise their RIGHT to exist? really, well we'll arm them and support them until you do. What's that you say? sorry WE CAN'T HEAR YOU!......what was all that row? oh it's the anti semites, bloody arabs whining again.....

Past Member (0)
Monday June 28, 2010, 9:52 pm
you know those arabs are worse then hitler, at least hitler would do business with us

Past Member (0)
Monday June 28, 2010, 11:06 pm
men standing in line for a firing squad; moisha says to jacob, 'do you think they'll allow us a final wish,, a last cigerette? 'Sssh' says jacob, 'don't make trouble'

Abo r (107)
Tuesday June 29, 2010, 1:13 am
Siege and the blockad of GAZA and preventing the essential needs for living is a crime of murder, murdering the civilians children on the eyes of their mothers, killing the mothers on the eyes of their children,destructing trees and fields, demolishing houses , crushing RASHEAL CORRIE by beldozer are examples of crimes.
The palestinians must not pay the bill or the taxes of the HOLLOCUST, Israel is doing a palestinian HOllocoust by murdering whole families at the IDF war to Gaza last year 1400 were murdered 40% are children and women..
500 patients were prevented from going outside Gaza for medical care and murdered had no treatment, 199 of the palestinians prisoners at the IDF prisons were murdered as they were not had medical treatment. these are an examples of the aparthied.
Israel is quilty if not why Goldenstone report hidden, US supported Israel with 72 VITO preventing the UN Security Council acts.
THe Arabs are not worse than Hitler, the Arabs accepted them in their countries when the others rejected them.
The IDF stole the palestinian lands and built the settlements on, and it is recognized palestinian lands by all countries and US it is the occupied territories since the 6 days war 1967.
All these examples of crimes are a prove that Israel is quilty.
Israel also rejected all the peace initiatives (Land for peace, way map, anapolis, arabs leaders initiative for peace, and the 2 state ) why simply because it wants to deport the palestinians and take their lands.


Past Member (0)
Tuesday June 29, 2010, 5:53 am
Abo, you don't mention the generations denied a full education. a crime as insideous as leaking oil

Brigitte T (69)
Tuesday June 29, 2010, 3:44 pm

Israel IS GUILTY of a genocide and crimes against humanity.

Remember how the US treated the Native Americans? that was the largest genocide in mankind. Israel has used many of the same techniques against harmless populations. The land in Gaza is soaked in the blood of Palestinian women, children, elders, and the blood of the warriors who tried to defend them; just like the land in today's USA is still soaked in the blood of innocent women, children, elders, and the blood of the warriors who tried to defend them. In both cases the population had to defend itself against the invader and oppressor. Against greed and violations of human rights. The list of comparisons is endless...

Israel is GUILTY and has to be held accountable. And its shameful actions have to be stopped.

Just like the other bully of the planet, the USA.

Past Member (0)
Tuesday June 29, 2010, 4:36 pm
so justice is a fantasy, something to give the 'small people', the bottom billion, a sense that they are viable. all the suits, the writings, the societys, ,the historys, the pretence that we are not all israelis, all of us abusers, just as the plainsmen and there families sat to dinner whilst the marchers trundled by and the stationmasters listened to the carriages roll past. you know when a neighbour beats his children that another rapes his daughter and like good Israelis you suspend your senses because justice is a fantasy

Abo r (107)
Tuesday June 29, 2010, 4:49 pm
Laurence: first thanks for the green star and this supports that Israel is quilty and crime of murder.
second you remids me about EDUCATION I did not forget it in my previous note I mentioned just examples and in fact there are many issues proves that Israel is quilty one of them education as it is deterioratng since the siege and the blocked of GAZA as the lack of the simple essential materials as supplies books, papers ,Aids , classrooms and schools as manny schools demolished during the IDF war to Gaza last year and students are not able to go outside GAZA for further education and those were in vaccation are not able to go te resume their studies.
Two things about health which is a crime too according to reports 75 % are malnurished, anemia, lack of drugs and medical supplies and instruments.
Impure water and bad sewage system as no equipments for repair and maintenance , electricity now turns on just 6 hours a day and night which affect on water pumps and sewage too as the amount of Fuel reaches GAZA 20% of its needs lately , and nowadays No fuel reaches and the generator is not working .. this is tha result of the blockad and the siege it is a crime of slow murdering of the population too ( APARTHIED ).

Past Member (0)
Tuesday June 29, 2010, 5:04 pm
faith is a verb, a doing word. you only have faith in flying when you strap yourself into the seat of a plane and take off. as it is with this. the comments only amount to a greek chorus, so what to do?

patrica and edw jones (190)
Thursday July 1, 2010, 1:03 am
The hate and ignorance on this thread is palpable. Nothing to be done about the herd mentality either.

Abo r (107)
Thursday July 1, 2010, 2:12 am
Laurence B you said in your last post "the comments only amount to a greek chorus, so what to do?"
1- We do not have chorus and we are not in a singing party.
2- you ask : so what to do?, the answer is known and clear as the sun in the midday of summer .. go back to The UN and UN Security Council acts ,resolutions name it as you want from 1947 till now and you will know the answer.
WEST BANK GAZA Eeast Jerusalem are occupied territories withdraw from it, return the stolen land , refugees to return and the righhts to be given to its owners.
so on I donot want to mention all in the acts read it.

Past Member (0)
Thursday July 1, 2010, 6:51 am
i trust what i see with my own eyes. israel i a criminal. that is clear and until the lands are returned i will not support israel in any way. not support it's trade or those who indirectly support it. the herd mentality is the one who suppresses what it knows is right. boycot israel, it's products and the politiicians and media who apologise for what we all know is wrong

Dave C (867)
Thursday July 1, 2010, 7:35 am
Allow me to introduce the rudest member of

patrica and edw jones (32)

Thursday July 1, 2010, 12:58 am

"Are you blind, deaf and dumb Mack? To equate what is going on in Gaza to the Holocaust can only be the rantings of a lunatic. Get your heads straight - these people are suffering because of the Palestinian Government and Hamas. They want the Israelis to be seen as the 'bad guys' and rank idiots like you go along with it. You believe anything you are told or read instead of investigating what is really going on there. Shalom."

The 'herd mentality' would suggest her being flagged as inappropriate en masse asap.

Mack David (100)
Thursday July 1, 2010, 7:43 am
^ sad

Thank-You kindly,
Dave C.

I am saddened by the cheap press.
I believe when i stated in the past about heart and jewish..
I misinterpreted myself.
I do think that if persons are going to be rude and overly dramatically sensitive.
Stay away from these issues.

Past Member (0)
Thursday July 1, 2010, 11:58 am
Qais Yousef points out that bar codes starting 729 are attaced to israeli products. 'Not a dime to 729' 'support israeli crime? buy 729?

Mack David (100)
Friday July 2, 2010, 3:35 am

Past Member (0)
Friday July 2, 2010, 10:09 am
israel went from a dream encapsulated to me by the kabbutz movement to greedy developers, they destroyed groves and family homes, it used the argument of 'security' and a 'buffer zone' to occupy it's neighbours lands. it stole the golan heights, a capturer of snow and water. it drained the dead sea of water, installed purification systems but denied it's neighbours permission to create there own, an on and on. what jews did this? i know there was a tribe that managed the caves where other jews would go to spend their 40 days and 40 nights, the tribe that managed these caves would, around the 35th day, cause problems, demand additional rent, they were chased off, exiled, a lost tribe. DNA might show that they have returned.

Marjolein soederhuizen (284)
Friday July 2, 2010, 5:40 pm
Did ny off u loose 137 family members in 5 years, i did and none off them died a natural dead, if u dont count the hungerdeads off some off them, most off them are gassed, i have said before, the israeli who live in the cities and country are not at all happy with the situation created around the palistine possesion off their country, after the war lots off jews were not welcome even in holland nov=body actually cared, their possetions were sold to rebuilt the country never returned to the actually owner, this does not seem important, but it is one way to go to a country and handle that the wrong way, obsessed by all the unjustice and cruel way u and ur family have been treathend, anyway, dont judge this fast u dont have a clue off what happens, nor the one part nor the other, palestine is the vitim, thats for sure, but innoncent??..pft, israel is cruel and unhuman with them, but same as in 40-45, shame on u, its crazy, someone says something and so many ppl just sart to yell with them, the one louder then the other, while they dont even know how it happend, why it happend and what going on for real, the usa is real good in bringing the news their way.... in europe all is more open, but still same promoting way as the usa, i know lots off u ppl will not like to believe this, but we are all being kept for fools, today it is democrate, tomorrow its communist, same as religion, dont u see, where u are born is how u are, can u help where u are born???, if u have not been there and know for sure, why and how th e jewish goverment does all this, then be silent, same for the ppl who think that palestine is bad, yes hamas is wong, but it came fro the same powerless feelign and paranoya as the israelies, its horrifying how we all proclame to even say somethign about this................this is a site for the voiceless, not to yell and frase away, excuse for my english, hope u will understand what i mean, let us stay civil and human, u and nobody is able to oversee it all, unless u were there from the beginning an d still are in the mids off it.

Donna K. (0)
Friday July 2, 2010, 6:00 pm
The bottom line is this land belongs to the Jewish people. If you don't believe that, read your mideast history. Israel has been fighting for their survival for centuries. If there is a peace treaty, you all better know the One who created you, because you are in for a rough ride!

Past Member (0)
Friday July 2, 2010, 6:14 pm
yes marjolein , the paranoya of israel. Donna, ,israel is like a first time property owner stamping it's feet saying; 'i own this land! ownership of land is a bundle of rights and responsabilities, you only have title to land if your neighbours agree. it's not like owning a car

Stuart L (0)
Friday July 2, 2010, 10:43 pm
At last, someone who tells it honestly from the Palestinian side. Thank you, Margaret. The question of whether Israel has the right to exist. Margaret says no, and she has made up her own rules to decide. Of course, it was already decided in 1948 that the Islamic nations would push Israel into the sea. Who started the wars? Explain why Israel was attacked in three wars. In Islam, you kill anyone who disagrees with you or who is not of Islamic faith. Margaret writes
>>Why should anyone concede Israel’s “right” to exist, when it has never even acknowledged the foundational crimes of murder and ethnic cleansing by means of which Israel took our towns and villages, our farms and orchards, and made us a nation of refugees? Why should any Palestinian “recognize” the monstrous crime carried out by Israel’s founders and continued by its deformed modern apartheid state, while he or she lives 10 to a room in a cinderblock, tin-roof United Nations hut?
Israel was and is a target from the beginning. Palestinians lived in those conditions before Israel existed, and now that Israel has created a beautiful land from the barren desert, they are all jealous and want to live the same way, but without the hard work. Israel was attacked from the beginning. What was Israel supposed to do? Not defend itself? Keep killing your daughters when they get raped, and keep commiting suicide to get your 72 virgins. You have no credibility with anyone who has any brains.

Neal Rudin (21)
Friday July 2, 2010, 11:19 pm
The Israelis though exeedingly loud are also drawn to a deeper truth. It has solidified the culture. Being oppressed for thousands of years from the Egyptians, the Babylonian, the Romans, The Inquisition in Spain, The progrums in Russia, The Nazi's and in the modern world has lead them to, in some cases, to push back, for the first time in their modern history against those who would again try to annihilate them. Arafat, an Egyptian used Palestinians for his own purposes. It brought him billions of dollars and forced the walls to be build that now sepparate them from the tourist economy. When I was the, before he was in the game, there was a ballance and security that still is not evident in most of the Middle East.
This threat is brought about by the absurd constructs of an imagined belief system that is seen in the prapagana pushed by those who would like to see us gone. We will not go. G-d won't let us. Study to beliefs of our oppressors and imagine that they are after you.
The Holocaut is true and it is proved by the anal retentive NAZIS. We are a hard headed people...
As for the history that we won't let get repeated.... photo/0erb9O21uabDp

...these are but a few proofs of our overwhelming dedication to our own servival.

Past Member (0)
Friday July 2, 2010, 11:20 pm
i heard they eat babies as well, is that true stuart

Past Member (0)
Friday July 2, 2010, 11:48 pm
The Holocaut is true and it is proved by the anal retentive NAZIS. Egyptians, the Babylonian, the Romans, The Inquisition in Spain, The progrums in Russia, AND NOW the arabs, why is this happening? anyway the question is 'is israel guilty?' yes. sorry about all the other stuff. whatever has been going on hasn't worked. try getting along. nobody is jealous. no-one believes the history you present. claiming to be 'the chosen' by a god one jewish tribe invented to excuse killing it's neighbours and calling your neighbours goyam is hardly a recipe for peace. israel is guilty of crimes against humanity. nothing be so proud of

Carol M (103)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 12:13 am
Thank you

Stuart L (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 8:01 am
Laurence B I am so impressed that you speak for everybody. >>nobody is jealous. no-one believes the history you present. claiming to be 'the chosen' by a god. The Chosen is Biblical. Most Jews I know are secular and never ever mention the chosen nonsense. Why do you and other anti-Semites make this about the Jews? I thought we were talking about Israel and its right or lack of right to exist? What other country in the world has a debate going on for the past 62 years about its "right to exist"? Who is anyone to decide whether anyone has a right to exist? The fact that you bring in Jews and their word "goyim" (meaning Gentiles) to this debate proves that you are an anti Semite. I bet you hate African-Americans, Latinos, and Native Americans. Part of the pattern of bigotry.

Joel Scott S (17)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 8:13 am
Why is the world attacking Israel as inhumane? Look at China, Russia, Iran, the Hamas, Lybria, Saudi Arabia, etc. They have worse human righs violations than Israel. She has to defend herself against terriorist attacks.

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 8:36 am
Irony stuart. Israel is gulity of crimes against humanity nothing to do with how badly the world treats the jews, the phrase 'right to exist', 'push them into the sea' are just rhetoric, useful for politicians raising money, arms dealers selling arms and financiers looking for new inventory to hypothecate , the public in Palestine and israel don't think about these thing, they equally seek happiness. if the borders are returned, all the evil undone, one day the borders will dessapear

Eva L (93)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 2:38 pm
I am also for a free Palestine. A country for both peoples.
Anyone who compares the Middle East war with the Holocaust has no clue and should Better Be silent!

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 4:23 pm

What WAR are you referring to? The WAR Israel is conducting against civilians who have no army, no tanks, no planes and no weapons? The only thing they have are homemade rockets that fall on the most fortified area of a city and produce little damage compared to the Israeli military with tanks, personnel, F-16's and illegal weapons of Mass Destruction such as Phosphorus bombs - that fall on civilians and mainly civilians?



. (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 4:37 pm
On the contrary, Laurence, the concentration camp kapos were hardly 'all Jewish'. I can't quite imagine where you got that piece of erroneous information.


Past Member (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 7:05 pm
Lindsey; they formed a mafia and viciuosly protected their own, the gaurds chose the kapo's and they chose jewish. this was a statement from Richards trial. no-one was ready to hear this and richard went quietly to prison. not many people were innocent during that time.

. (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 7:19 pm
Laurence, just a few mentions of non-Jewish kapos that I've found:

"Kapo Hermann wore a red triangle without yellow corners, which marked him as a political non-Jewish prisoner."

"One of the Polish Gentile Kapos...."

And I'm quite certain there are many more references out there if you choose to look. Of course there were non-Jewish kapos in the camps.

And first you say they were all Jewish because "other victims didn't want the job." Now you say, "the guards chose the kapos and they chose Jewish." Which is it? Because if the guards chose the kapos then it wouldn't have mattered if the non-Jewish victims supposedly didn't want the job, would it?

. (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 7:27 pm
And if you'd like more references:

"Some of these Kapos were Jewish..." (not ALL)

"One of the kind Kapos, I remember, was a tall, blonde Polish woman, non-Jewish...."

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 7:28 pm

I, too, have heard of Jewish kapos (but, admittedly, not exclusively). Considering the monstrously hateful attitude of the Nazis, and the horrendous life-or-death circumstances of the imprisoned Jews, however, I can understand it (in their demented thinking).

What worse psychological pain could you inflict on people than to have them abuse their own in order to survive? I can only imagine the mental anguish from the side of the Jewish kapo . . . and the people (their own) they felt forced to oppress.


Past Member (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 7:44 pm
thank you lindsey, i guess one is too many, i was told the jewish prisoners were better organised and easier to negotiate with and saw the benefit of co-operation, even under those conditions.
am irish and neither myself or any of my family took part in the persecution of anyone. Israel is guilty of crimes against humanity. i did not intend to get off the point. What do you say about israel taking a 'buffer zone' for it's 'security' and then developing it? how about dropping magnesium on a school? how about 23 yr old Rachel Corrie, dubai, the daily murder of palastinians, the embargo? on and on. are you comfotable?

. (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 7:46 pm
You're welcome, Laurence.

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 8:19 pm
Lindsey, "One of the kind Kapos, I remember, was a tall, blonde Polish woman, non-Jewish'. Lindsey, are you tugging on my heartstrings?

. (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 8:21 pm
Nope, Laurence. Merely giving a quote from one of the camp survivors about a non-Jewish kapo.

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 8:25 pm
Ooops. so, lindsey, what do you say to the statement, 'Israel is guilty of crimes against humanity'

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 8:36 pm

Those crimes, Laurence, are an outrage; and I am even angrier when I read them to realize that my own government is guilty of doing much the same in the Middle East.

If there is nothing else people of compassion can agree to it should be that this should all STOP! (By ALL parties.)

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 8:38 pm
מסומן כחשוב

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 8:42 pm
last post an error. hi just, easier, less painfull, to comment on abstracts then what is actually ongoing

. (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 8:43 pm
Going by the International Criminal Court's definition of 'crimes against humanity' (which has to do with actions against a civilian population), the Israeli government is guilty of that (no question that Israel has engaged in "deportation or forcible transfer of population". Whether the Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli fire would fall under that definition is debatable since Hamas has made the entirety of Gaza a battlefield by directing their own fire at Israel from among the civilian population and hiding/storing weapons alongside the civilians of Gaza. But a case could certainly be made for that.

Both Israel and Hamas have been accused by the United Nations, among others, of committing war crimes and crimes against humanity. It will be interesting to see the outcome of any trials which may result from any indictments brought against the leadership of both nations.

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 9:08 pm
yes Lindsey, the question is about israel, not hamas or others. you agree with the statement israel is guilty.

maybe someone should post the question transposing hamas for israel. Hamas Is GUILTY of Crimes Against Humanity and see where that goes

. (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 9:18 pm
Of course Israel is guilty, Laurence. I don't believe I know of any armed conflict going on today that doesn't involve actions which would be considered crimes against humanity or war crimes under the legal definition of such, and Israel is certainly no exception.

In fact, since those crimes aren't limited to actions only in armed conflict, I think it's likely that most, if not all, nations on Earth would be guilty of committing them against some portion of their own civilian populations (even systemic persecution of, say, homosexuals is a crime against humanity according to the ICC.)

Stuart L (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 9:19 pm
I cannot believe that the residents of Gaza were innocent in all of this. There comes a poiunt when one cannot claim stupidity for one's actions. They chose Hamas willingly. They knew it was a terrorist organization committed to unrest in the area. They got rid of the Palestinean Authority. What were they thinking? They wanted Israel to be harmed.

. (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 9:30 pm
That is another argument, Stuart, which some consider valid - if a civilian population which chooses and supports a leadership is culpable in the actions of that leadership. I don't necessarily agree with that thinking in terms of every person being responsible who merely voted for a political candidate (and, of course, in any election there will always be people who didn't vote for the candidates in question.) And there will always be citizens who disagree with their government's actions but who have no physical means to stop those actions short of armed revolt (not really practical or effective in most cases.) I would personally only consider a civilian complicit in his government's actions if he actively supported and encouraged those actions. For example, I'm complicit in the war in Afghanistan since I support the U.S.'s right to have gone there. But I'm not complicit in the war in Iraq since I don't support my country's right to be fighting in Iraq. (And I voted for Ron Paul, of course, who's hardly in favor of the war.)

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 9:36 pm
(Flagged as inappropriate, Laurence?)

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 9:37 pm
מסומן כחשוב = "Flagged as inappropriate."

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 9:39 pm

This is getting silly (again). G'night, all.

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 9:44 pm
'' if a civilian population which chooses and supports a leadership is culpable in the actions of that leadership' are you applying the same standard to every israel? All the nations on earth!' why are you offering excuses, what arguments. it's black and white. the question only talks about israel.

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 9:46 pm
just, i immediately posted it was an error

. (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 9:53 pm
Laurence, like so many people, you criticize anyone who goes what you consider to be off-topic - so long as you disagree with, or dislike, what they're saying (while remaining quite silent when those whose opinions you agree with wander about discussing irrelevancies at will).

While you, of course, talk on this thread about Israeli car dealers, Catholics in the concentration camps, Jewish kapos, 'a tribe that managed the caves', a joke about Jewish men standing in a firing squad line, and a whole host of subjects totally irrelevant to the question of whether or not Israel committed crimes against humanity.

Consistency doesn't seem to be your strong point I'm afraid.

I'm talking about the subject of war crimes and crimes against humanity in general because the broader issues are at least tangentially relevant to the discussion and at best entirely relevant. Because one issue I always highlight is that too many people insist upon treating Israeli actions as somehow unique to Israel alone - while quietly condoning, or at least ignoring, the actions of other nations which fall under the same category. It's called hypocrisy.

. (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 9:59 pm
And, so that you don't misunderstand me, as far as I'm concerned you're perfectly free to discuss Israeli car dealers, Catholics in the concentration camps, Jewish kapos, 'a tribe that managed the caves', a joke about Jewish men standing in a firing squad line, or anything else that you like on this thread or on any other. Since I've found that not insisting upon rigidly staying within narrow boundaries on any subject often makes for a far more interesting discussion.

But if you prefer that others narrowly remain within strict boundaries, then you really should remain within those boundaries yourself. Because otherwise you're setting one standard for yourself - and one for others.

Stuart L (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 10:27 pm
Lindsey: Even though I do not agree with your conclusions about Israel's culpability, I must say that you are very fair and impartial. If I had a profile here, I would give you a green star. All your postings are logical, historically accurate, unbiased and fair. I can tell that you are a person who will not put up with hypocrisy.
Please keep posting. Thank you.

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 10:31 pm
the joke about the firing line was from a tel aviv newspaper. i just get uncomfortable when you minimalise the crimes. 'well everybody else is doing it'. why not talk about the matter, what posseses an israeli officer to load magnesium, shoot a child, deny basic rights, target a school, treat human beings with contempt. where is this coming from? and how to deal wiith. instead of mitigating these horrors, rationalising, talk about it. i think the notion of being more valuable as human beings is a part of it. i read here that we are to be jealous of their success and want to live like them. nonsense but many israelis DO think this way and i believe that is a big part of the problem. because it gives moral authority and demonizes everyone else. this is their belief and it is impossibl to change a belief, except over time. and 2000 plus years has made little diference

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 10:34 pm
Note i am not saying ALL

Stuart L (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 10:54 pm
Thank you, Lindsey. You deserve it much more than iI do.

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 10:57 pm
the word vacous comes to mind. my prior comment were respnses

. (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 11:04 pm
There is no 'minimalizing' at all, Laurence - merely putting things in perspective.

And as to 'what possesses an Israeli officer' to do anything - that depends on the individual 'Israeli officer'. Israelis are subject to the same vices as anyone else and, as individuals, commit crimes for the same reasons as others do. Sometimes out of fear. Or out of survivalism. Or out of an obedience to authority. Or out of a belief in the overall rightness of his actions. Or out of a belief that the end justifies the means. Or out of not caring about the victim. Or about wanting what the other has in terms of land and resources. Or out of a belief that his particular god is on his side. Or out of just being an ugly human being who enjoys harming others.

And it's absolutely impossible to talk about those kinds of reasons without acknowledging that they are the same reasons that motivate people of all nationalities, religions, and 'races' when they commit, or would like to commit, aggression of any kind against others. Because that's part of who we are as humans, hard though we may try to overcome it. And we can still fully condemn the action or the motive or the individual while also admitting that the problem is universal to humanity.

We already know the overall list of whys - we've known that since civilization began since there really is nothing new under the sun.

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 11:13 pm
again you make excuses

. (0)
Saturday July 3, 2010, 11:18 pm
They aren't excuses, Laurence. They are reasons. You don't seem to read comments very carefully. Did I not say that 'we can still FULLY CONDEMN the action or the motive of the individual while also admitting that the problem is universal to humanity"?

You don't seem to be happy unless everyone is in agreement that Israel is at fault in a way that no one else has ever been at fault. Which isn't true.

Abdessalam D (145)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 5:07 am
Gaza health care “never been worse”

In a 14 June press statement, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said Gazan suffering could not be addressed simply by providing aid. “The closure imposed on Gaza chokes off any real possibility of economic development. Gazans continue to suffer from unemployment, poverty, and warfare, while the quality of Gaza’s health care system has reached an all-time low,” it said.

The ICRC said stocks of essential medical supplies in Gaza were depleted “because of a standstill in cooperation between the Palestinian authorities in Ramallah and Gaza”. At the end of May 2010, 110 of the 470 medicines considered essential, such as chemotherapy and haemophilia drugs, were unavailable. More than 110 of the 700 disposable items that should be available were also out of stock

"The state of the health-care system in Gaza has never been worse," said Eileen Daly, the ICRC's health coordinator in Gaza. "Health is being politicized: that is the main reason the system is failing. Unless something changes, things are only going to get even worse. Thousands of patients could go without treatment and the long-term outlook will be increasingly worrisome."

This situation has driven Abu Asi and thousands of other Gazans to Egypt.

“Most of these people suffer chronic diseases because of the hard conditions they experience in Gaza. Some have kidney failure, others have cancerous tumours, but the majority have bone deformities,” Bahaa Abu Zeid, manager of the Nasser Medical Institute, told IRIN, adding that the hospital has been receiving around 70 Palestinian patients a day.

“The bitter reality is that there is a complete generation of Gazans who will be dependent for the rest of their lives,” Abu Asi said. “They’re young people who lost their legs in Israeli attacks. They’ll grow up always needing help from others.”

Neal Rudin (21)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 8:38 am
If the Gazans and the anti-heroic Arafat, he did steal most of the wealth directed to the Palestinians, would have taken the route of aggressive, competitive, growth instead of a continuing self destructive dream, they could have shared with the prosperity that the Jews brought to this barren land. They chose to fight with their own children as weapons. They have taken themselves to this precipice. When the Jews were being decimated they didn’t tie bombs to their children. They studied the wisdom of the ages. They educated them on the glory of faith and the greatness gained by working towards the uplifted society. To heal the world. This is what adversity and reason created in us.
The mindset that was once the greatest beacon to hope in the Middle East, at the height of the Muslim enlightenment has been replaced by an all consuming hatred of the West and modernity. The elegance of inspiration.
The Gazans were give wonderfully productive farms when the Israelis left. What did their inheritors do? They destroyed them and now they are starving. They could have had a viable economy and healthy, living children. They are consumed by the love of a bad dream. If they had a great leader like Mandela they would become a great people, not a pawn for those who think that Israel should "Go Gently Into That Good Night". Yes, Israel has overstepped its bounds, but it isn’t because their enemies see strength in negotiating and the flexibility of the ober-conservative and insane beliefs that those like the Taliban have towards all those outside their abysmal philosophy. The Muslim world will come into the brighter light of this new age when woman are given their freadom to choose their own future and their childrens greatest dreams will all comsuming...

Brenda Marie C. C. (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 9:43 am
Interesting I do say, how-ever two wrongs do not make a right. This is good information and worthy of consideration. thank-you.

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 9:47 am
you say 'Yes, Israel has overstepped its bounds' You agree israel i guilty? what do think israel should do?

. (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 9:56 am
Yes, Laurence, as I've already said several times, I agree that in my opinion Israel has definitely violated at least one of the criteria the International Criminal Court considers to be a crime against humanity.

And as I've also said many times on the forum, I personally believe that Israel should immediately work to implement a three-state solution. With Israel and Jordan retaining their independent nationhood and with Gaza and the West Bank becoming an independent state of Palestine. And with Jerusalem to be shared in some fashion (I don't have a clue how that could be accomplished.) And with all of them strictly respecting one another's borders. And with all of them accepting for all practical purposes the others' right to exist.

Whether that broad solution will end up being workable, I don't know. That's just my personal opinion on what I'd like to see happen.

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 10:29 am
The joke is people talk about 3-State solution when the issue is an Israeli-Palestinian issue. That means TWO state solution.

Why would anyone bring a "third-party/ country" into the equation? Are we still insisting on solving the world's problems according to our own agendas?

Then Colonialism is alive and well.


. (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 10:36 am
Because the overwhelming majority of current Jordanian land was part of the British Mandate, was part of Palestine, and was, like Israel, carved up into separate units by the League of Nations after it was taken from the Ottoman Empire after WWI. Therefore it obviously should be considered Palestinian land as much as any other is claimed to be. Advocating a three-state solution is simply an acknowledgement that Jordan should have the right to remain an independent nation.

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 10:36 am
So you believe that Iarael is guilty, of violating one criteria, of what the criminal court considers a crime! which one? When i read the question i did not wonder who was setting the rules. i was raised with a sense of right and wrong, from my parents and schools. when i read the statement i said Yes Israel is guilty, not according to any third party, according to me and people who think like me. please tell me which of the 'criteria' you refer to

. (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 10:44 am
Laurence, you ask me which criteria I believe Israel has violated?

I've already answered that above through my post made at "Saturday July 3, 2010, 8:43 pm". And I really see no reason to keep answering the same questions over and over again as I've been doing. If you want an answer to that question, please read the previous comment if you haven't already.

And if someone is debating the issue of whether something is a 'crime against humanity', then the concepts has to be defined first. Otherwise different people may choose to define it in different ways. I accept the definition of the International Criminal Court since that seems to be the body which will have some jurisdiction in the matter.

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 10:52 am
the majority of poeple know right from wrong without third party reference. the detracters here seem to flounder about for permission to carry out these criminal acts, the word authority.outside of the old testament i don't know of any other jewish writings which support Isaels actions. the mindset which does support them is the notion of one israeli being worth four arabs.where does that come from?

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 10:54 am

You just sing the Zionist National Anthem. Jordan was never part of Palestine. Palestinians were as occupied by Jordan and discriminated against as they are under Israeli occupation. At least they enjoyed more freedom of movement and living their daily lives.

Refer to historic maps from as early on as the Assyrians kingdom! The region of Palestine never included what is now called Jordan.


Past Member (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 10:57 am
yes you've repeated a false response. repeating does not make it right. which 'criteria' and where do you think the mindset behind these 'individual acts' come from, that is what i am asking

. (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 11:04 am
When I made that response, Laurence, I was specifically responding to your own question to me: "so, lindsey, what do you say to the statement, 'Israel is guilty of crimes against humanity'.

The International Criminal Court who will be prosecuting any such crimes is the one who is going to be defining those crimes by its own published standards.

And as I've ALREADY said I personally accept their definition. What they consider to be legally crimes against humanity accords with my own personal belief in general. If I don't personally agree with a law or a standard, while I may personally follow it out of necessity I will not state that I accept it since that would be rather contradictory.

And also as I have said BEFORE, I agree that Israel is indeed guilty of violating at least one of those standards and perhaps will be found guilty of others. Therefore I'm hardly 'floundering about for permission to carry out these criminal acts.' When someone agrees about another's guilt that is a pretty clear indicator that they consider the person or thing actually did NOT have 'permission' to carry out the act under discussion.

. (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 11:10 am
If over 3/4 of Jordan was part of the British Mandate of Palestine (and that's just part of the historical record, of course), then it was part of Palestine. If the League of Nations' actions with regard to the land on which Israel sits were wrong, then the League of Nations' actions with regard to the land on which Jordan sits were wrong.

And, Laurence, I cannot answer your question as to the specific criteria I consider Israel to have violated any more thoroughly than I already have above. I quoted the specific criteria that I consider it to have violated. How much more specific can I get than an actual quote of the SPECIFIC CRITERIA?

And again you ask another question I've already answered. The 'motives' behind the individual mindsets of Israelis who commit these acts. See my post at Saturday July 3, 2010, 11:04 pm.

I will not keep answering the same questions over and over again.

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 11:21 am

A most ignorant argument!

Jordan and Palestine were never considered Jordan even under the Ottoman Empire.

If we follow "your logic," then Iraq should be called Palestine! Iraq was also under the British Influence or Mandate.

But of course, it's hard for you to admit that you are wrong.


. (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 11:25 am
ATW, Iraq was under the British Mandate of Mesopotamia. Not the British Mandate of Palestine. Those were two separate official Mandates. Therefore it certainly could not be considered to be part of Palestine.

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 11:34 am
LOL Lindsey,

Again, there was NO Jordan (it was referred to as Trans-Jordan by the British then) and AGAIN even if there was, the Mandate of Palestine has nothing to do with Jordan or Trans-Jordan. Have you heard of the Faisal- Weizmann treaty? What am I asking, of course you have.. you know everything!


. (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 11:36 am
And since I'm always happy to provide back-up references:

Directly from the original British Mandate documents themselves:

"ART. 25.
In the territories lying between the Jordan and the eastern boundary of Palestine as ultimately determined, the Mandatory shall be entitled, with the consent of the Council of the League of Nations...."

And the Jordan River, of course, forms the eastern boundary of Israel/Gaza/The West Bank. What lies between the Jordan River and the east is what is now Jordan (earlier TransJordan)

"With the imposition of the Palestine Mandate, the borders of Palestine were defined for the first time. It included land on both sides of the Jordan River encompassing the present-day countries of Israel and Jordan."

"The British had, in the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence previously promised the Hashemite family lordship over most land in the region in return for their support in the Great Arab Revolt during World War I.

In 1920 at the Conference of San Remo held at San Remo, Italy, the League of Nations mandate over Palestine was assigned to Britain. This territory at this time included all of what would later become the State of Israel, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, a part of the Golan Heights, and THE KINGDOM OF JORDAN."

"The fact that the British mandate included references to the Balfour Declaration and the establishment of a Jewish homeland was a severe blow to the Arabs. Partly to try and mollify this disappointment, the British split the Palestine mandate into two distinct areas, using the Jordan River as a natural boundary. The British claimed that Jewish immigration would be confined to the West of the river. The East of the river, which represented three quarters of the whole mandate area was to be reserved for the Arabs alone. The Hashemite Abdulla was to become the ruler of what was to BECOME TRANSJORDAN..."


Past Member (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 11:48 am

The British administration in Jerusalem only ever covered the area west of the Jordan, while the area east of the Jordan was administered by the British representative in Ma'an, Captain Alex Kirkbride...

Regardless, your references really prove my point. That "Jordan" was not "Palestine."

Add to that the fact that during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, Jordan occupied the area of now called the West Bank, which it continued to control until 1967!


. (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 11:54 am
Actually, ATW, each and every one of my references says exactly the opposite. That the modern day nation of Jordan was part of the British Mandate of Palestine and that Palestine did indeed include Jordan.

"It included land on both sides of the Jordan River encompassing the present-day countries of Israel and Jordan."

"In the territories lying between the Jordan and the eastern boundary of Palestine as ultimately determined, the Mandatory shall be entitled..."

"It included land on both sides of the Jordan River encompassing the present-day countries of Israel and Jordan."

"This territory at this time included all of what would later become the State of Israel, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, a part of the Golan Heights, and THE KINGDOM OF JORDAN."

"The East of the river, which represented three quarters of the whole mandate area was to be reserved for the Arabs alone. The Hashemite Abdulla was to become the ruler of what was to BECOME TRANSJORDAN..."

But if you wish to pretend that they don't, in the face of the actual words hanging right over your own comment, go for it!

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 11:58 am
Yes Lindsey, that's what the Zionist claim is.

Yet the proof is in the pudding - and the Faisal Weizmann agreement: Weizmann first met Feisal in June 1918, during the British advance from the South against the Ottoman Empire in World War I. As leader of an impromptu "Zionist Commission", Weizmann traveled to southern Transjordan for the meeting. The intended purpose was to forge an agreement between Feisal and the Zionist movement to support an Arab Kingdom and Jewish settlement in Palestine, respectively. The wishes of the Palestinian Arabs were to be ignored, and, indeed, both men seem to have held the Palestinian Arabs in considerable disdain.

Besides, we've already established who you are and what you stand for.


. (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 12:03 pm
As I said, ATW, if you wish to pretend that the historical record doesn't say what it clearly says, if you wish to pretend that Iraq was part of the Mandate of Palestine rather than the Mandate of Mesopotamia, if you wish to pretend that my references say exactly the opposite of what they clearly say, if you wish to pretend that anything in the historical record is false, despite the clear evidence, you certainly are free to do so.

It isn't a "Zionist" claim. It's part of the historical record.


Stuart L (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 12:20 pm
ATW, in disagreeing with Lindsey, writes >>Besides, we've already established who you are and what you stand for. ATW." So, this is how we assess and evaluate history? If we do not agree, we say that we have already ipso facto established (thus attacking the person's credibility without bringing forth any facts) who the person is (whatever that means) and what the person stands for. So, if a person gives historical facts that we do not agree with, we already believe that the person "stands for" opinions that are to be discounted. I have never seen a better example of a kangaroo court than the one that ATW established here with his/her own words. Is this the same logic that gave this thread the statement: "Israel is guilty of crimes against humanity"? Let us decide that, based on evidence by a real world court. Let us bring in and try other combatants and and see if they too are guilty of crimes against humanity. I do not like any ipso facto judgments against anyone. Let everything be proved. In the past 30 submissions, it seems that Lindsey is the only one contributing evidence to the subject matter. Of course, if you do not have any evidence, your only defense is to attack Lindsey's motivations, knowing "who she/he is and what she/he stands for." Shame on you!

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 12:21 pm
Can I play too? This is fun and is getting me out of a very boring cookout.


"Palestine and Transjordan are one, for Palestine is the coastline and Transjordan the hinterland of the same country."

- King Abdullah, at the Meeting of the Arab League, Cairo, 12th April 1948

"Let us not forget the East Bank of the (River) Jordan, where seventy per cent of the inhabitants belong to the Palestinian nation."

- George Habash, leader of the PFLP section of the PLO, writing in the PLO publication Sha-un Falastinia, February 1970

"Palestine is Jordan and Jordan is Palestine; there is one people and one land, with one history and one and the same fate."

- Prince Hassan, brother of King Hussein, addressing the Jordanian National Assembly, 2nd February 1970

"The new Jordan, which emerged in 1949, was the creation of the Palestinians of the West Bank and their brothers in the East. While Israel was the negation of the Palestinian right of self-determination, unified Jordan was the expression of it."

- Sherif Al-Hamid Sharaf, Representative of Jordan at the UN Security Council, 11th June 1973


Past Member (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 12:46 pm
You are receiving this Green Star for the comment on the C2NN Story Israel is GUILTY of Crimes Against Humanity:

"LOL Lindsey,

Again, there was NO Jordan (it was referred to as Trans-Jordan by the British then)

Thanks! Unlike some, you know what you're talking about. And if you want to reveal yourself, please feel free to do so.


Past Member (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 12:47 pm
Part of the historical record Lindsey? You mean the Zionist claim so that they can Ethnic Cleanse Palestine of Palestinians and ship them to Jordan?



. (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 12:50 pm
A rose by any other name, ATW.

And thank you for the kind words.

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 12:52 pm
You're WELCOME Lindsey...

It is my pleasure to discredit ignorance and Zionist claims.


. (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 12:53 pm
On second thought, since I didn't see your second comment before remarking on the first, I believe I shall retract my second sentence.

First, "Unlike some, you know what you're talking about", then

"Part of the historical record Lindsey?....Laughable."

There appear to be two ATW Orld's and one is contradicting the other.

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 12:57 pm
israelis strap dynamite to the heads of children and like characters in Shaws 'garden party',you argue british divide and Conqueror archeology, look up,Israel, pakistan, northern ireland are all mad right now

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 1:00 pm
I think I'll take the word of the late King of Jordan, his brother, Jordan's U.N. representative, and other people like that over the opinion of Atw O. I think they are probably more likely to know whether their country was part of Palesine than he does. And they seem to think it was. Now I'm hungry again and headed back to the cookout. Enjoyed myself.

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 1:01 pm

You must be delirious. Are you trying to claim that it was you who sent me the star? Please don't even try!

And the comment was in appreciation of the person giving me the star.. but yes, you don't know what you're talking about. You're the JACK-of-all-trades. You know everything and just want to appear as if "informed."

Happy cutting-and-pasting!


. (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 1:06 pm
No, I didn't send you the star, ATW. But if you want to tell someone else that you believe he or she knows what he's talking about, you might consider not including that under "LOL Lindsey,". That does rather tend to make one think that you were referring to me.

Enjoy your BBQ Kate. And thanks for all the quotes from Jordan's leadership which show that Jordan considers itself be part of Palestine.

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 1:11 pm

Your argument and claim is as superficial as you are.

If Jordan was part of Palestine, why are Palestinians discriminated against in Jordan?

Why did Jordan "occupy" the West Bank? If it was Jordan, how does Jordan "occupy" itself?

Ignorance is bliss Lindsey! Enjoy it.

I think Palestine will become Jordan or otherwise, when "Pigs Fly..." (pun is definitely intended!)


. (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 1:17 pm
ATW, you ask, "If Jordan was part of Palestine, why are Palestinians discriminated against in Jordan?"

Well, Israel was part of Palestine. And yet, like Jordan, Israel does indeed discriminate against Palestinians.

Sitting on land which was part of Palestine very obviously doesn't mean that the leadership of the new nation won't discriminate against Palestinians. Israel does and Jordan does. Same difference.

You ask, "Why did Jordan 'occupy' the West Bank? If it was Jordan, how does Jordan 'occupy' itself?

Well, Israel was part of Palestine. And it occupies the West Bank and Gaza. How does it "occupy itself"?

It isn't 'itself'. Both Israel and Jordan were part of Palestine. They are now both independent states. But the land they sit on was once part of Palestine.

So what's your point? Same situation, same outcome.

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 1:17 pm
hey hey! :^)

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 1:19 pm
Whatever Lindsey... you know it all... I have a life. Do you?



. (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 1:20 pm
So happy to hear you have a life, ATW. Live it to the full and eat lots of fish - it's brain food.

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 1:22 pm
Indeed I will... you seem to know about Fish and its benefits too.. apparently you don't eat enough FISH!


Past Member (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 1:43 pm
surely you mean flying pork?

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 2:13 pm

That one too! :-)


Past Member (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 2:17 pm
..I was also informed that Palestinians were not Palestinians; They also explained to me that ethnic cleansing was not ethnic cleansing. And when naive old me saw freedom fighters they patiently showed me that they were not freedom fighters, and that resistance was not resistance. And when, stupidly, I noticed arrogance, oppression and humiliation they benevolently enlightened me so I can see that arrogance was not arrogance, oppression was not oppression, and humiliation was not humiliation. I saw misery, racism, inhumanity and a concentration camp. But they told me that they were experts in misery, racism, inhumanity and concentration camps and I have to take their word for it:

A Massacre is Not a Massacre

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 4, 2010, 2:34 pm
i had a teacher, when i presented a truly secound rate project, who told me that important thing was the ability to justify the work, to explain. also he wrote, 'first rule in architecture, get the job'. in miami a client said 'permits!l i've done it now so what? dead palestinian? so what? magnesium? well i've done it now. occupation? i can explain

Neal Rudin (21)
Monday July 5, 2010, 6:42 am
Israel has hit back as it has because those who wish to destroy her have beliefs like those mentioned at this website. There was a video clip showing laughing a13 year old decapatating a captive with a dull knife. They made the tape. They wallow in the insane glow of hate.. There is a true disconnect from humanity by those of this ilk. These extremist and their farflung indoctrinators are the reason Israel fights back so hard.
What would you do if you knew the people next door were this kind of threat? Yes, Israel made some accesses. It was HAMAS that placed rocket launchers in school yards and Masques. It is their falt that the schools got hit. Would you hide behind a child while launch rockets.? Would you really? If you would you are in love with death not life, love and peace...

Past Member (0)
Monday July 5, 2010, 2:26 pm
no 'turn the other cheek' for you. if a gunman was hiding behind a child or or any person i would not kill as a means to an end child. Hamas are enabled by the blockade, they can operate the black market from the tunnels. israel has got it wrong, it has used it's might incorrectly, not for the good of anyone and nothing good has come from it's actions, nothing! maybe make friends and influence poeple, a challenge but how about trying to get along, piss on the insane glow of hate, unless it's magnesium and the palestinian children already tried that

Charmaine C (177)
Tuesday July 6, 2010, 4:52 am
We've lived there on the West Bank among Palestinian people. We know many Palestinians and also many Isrealis and both groups are respresented by some very nice people. We found the average man and woman in the street is largely concerned with survival of self and family, going to work to buy bread, to come home to have some fun and to sleep, to go back to work. People were too tired to hold opinions about much, same as all of us are in our respective countries. As a Palestinian working in Jerusalem said to me when I asked why he worked there "No money, no Honey!" Lol. Good for you Amjad. You have the right attitude. Work more, talk more, love more, fight less.

Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 7, 2010, 8:57 am
i just looked at this sight. very reasonable, can't imagine who would be upset to be portrayed this way, it's the zionist reaching out for peace

Neal Rudin (21)
Wednesday July 7, 2010, 2:54 pm
This site?
They made the videos. The cellebrate life this way. Israel didn't have anything to do with it. Even if Israel didn't exist thery would still treat each other this way.
Go to their archives and look up BEHEADINGS"

Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 7, 2010, 5:07 pm
yes i did, horrible. i had a knee jerk reaction, it's lunacy and if i had neighbours even in posession of these videos, i would change my locks for sure

Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 7, 2010, 5:12 pm
it's a spectre Neal, what production does it serve except to spread fear, and sickness. but if you take it too much into account it succeeds in halting progress, it's purpose?

Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 7, 2010, 5:35 pm
BNI is a sub of — Get a Free Blog Here - by the developers of the WordPress software. free download. the site is a template, i wonder who maintains the blog?

Neal Rudin (21)
Wednesday July 7, 2010, 8:58 pm
How does the radical Muslim justify his use of violence as the first choice of action instead of well reasoned retorts and wisdom derived from ages of thoughtfulness. Why do they fear the spread of new ideas unless they are not truly secure in their beliefs. To question everything, even G-d is common in Jew life. Humor is deeply woven into our psyches. G-d gave everyone this great gift. Children laugh naturally, until it is cast out of them by fearful, insecure societies. Trees like cultures must bend in the wind. It actually makes them stronger.
Israel is trying to break Hamas' hold on their people,. They are no friend of the Palestinian children. They offer no well reasoned future . They are taught to follow the dictates of small ridged minds…

paul l (2)
Thursday July 8, 2010, 5:47 am
What utter poppycock!
I see this Dave did not eve4n includ his surname.
When we start comparing atrocities by the Israelis as opposed to those by Islam, Israel's is like a drop in the ocean!
Sick, Mr. Dave.
As one-sided as can be!

Past Member (0)
Thursday July 8, 2010, 6:30 am
Neal, israelis do treat palestinians as secound class, worse then the british toward the irish. there were radical irish until in1983 intel and microsoft grew the irish middle class bringing a higher regard toward the irish from the british. the radical arabs, muslims would fade into the minority within an emerging middle class

Neal Rudin (21)
Thursday July 8, 2010, 6:50 am
Have you seen what the childen are taught and the obsurd retoic that has been thrown by the extremists?
The insanity as shown below include the destruction of "all" non-Muslims and they hate each other enough to destroy each other, and to what end, the total destruction of this world. They don't live for this world but the next. They are the insanity that you seem to be respecting. I love the Muslims. The one who love their children.
Golda said; "When they learn to love their children more than they hate their enemies their will be peace"...

Hamas MP: A Palestinian Who Kills One Jew Will Be Rewarded As If He Killed 30 Million

Following is an excerpt from a press conference held by Hamas MP Fathi Hammad, which aired on Al-Aqsa TV on September 7, 2008:

To view this clip, visit

Fathi Hammad: The approaching victory, about which we are talking, is not limited to Palestine. You are creating the ethos of victory for all Arabs and Muslims, and Allah willing, even on the global level. Why? Beacause Allah has chosen you to fight the people he hates most - the Jews. Allah said: "You shall find the worst enemies of the believers to be the Jews and the polytheists." In other words, the Jews, who number 15 million all over the world, are equivalent to 4.5 billion infidels in their corruption and their struggle against the religion of Islam. Therefore, our heroic prisoneers who were arrested for killing Jews should know that by the grace of Allah, killing a single Jew is the same as killing 30 million Jews. Therefore, the reward of our martyrs is great, and your reward is also great.


. (0)
Thursday July 8, 2010, 7:07 am
I remember seeing that speech by Hammad before, Neal. And his words are perfectly consistent with what Hamas has publicly and clearly stated from its very beginnings in its founding Charter. Why is the world so unwilling to believe what the governing body of Gaza publicly and officially states to be its goals? This isn't some fringe extremist group - it's the elected government of Gaza.

When Mein Kampf was published in 1925, Hitler was also very honest about his goals and intentions. And why so much of the world didn't believe him at the time I cannot fathom. Because he was serious and he made good on his stated intentions.

Past Member (0)
Thursday July 8, 2010, 7:28 am
but neal what do you do? the british treated the irish very badly. the main boulevard in tehran is named 'bobby sands blvd'. wouldn' it be better if israel and the worl made an effort to reach out to these children, not by religeon, toys games, juice, raise there standards instead on forcing then into the arms of their abusers? me complaining that my poor neighbour, who has no intention of moving, has rats nesting in his yard, does no good. better that i help him find work, teach his children, then heap garbage on him?

pete O (242)
Thursday July 8, 2010, 8:23 am
We keep looking to history to find answers or blame , it is now here in the present where war crimes and oppression can be prevented it matters not if the plo admin were crooked or the hammas movement used to use terror tac ticks or if the jewish people suffered oppression -what matters is everythng has changed and the policies of the US Europe and Israel also need to change to adapt to this, if we are going to ever see peace. The risk assessment israel uses is the restriction to peace- as it say there could be a risk even though we see efforts from the arabic nations and Paletine to create peace there are no car bombs but the wall is stll being built there are no rocklets but still restictions are made for trade at some point in time people will say what is the point of our efforts nothing changes ....We ask the members of the knesset is this what you really aim for ?

Past Member (0)
Thursday July 8, 2010, 10:17 am
re the neighbour with rats in his yard. if my intent is to take the property then i would feed the rats while complaining to the aurthorities about the rats

Neal Rudin (21)
Thursday July 8, 2010, 7:04 pm
...killing a single Jew is the same as killing 30 million Jews...(?)
Are we so powerful that each of us is equivolent to creating such insain fear? If G-d wanted us dead we would have left this Earth long ago. If we are seen this way by them it means that they fear the truth that threatens their beliefs. The Irish and the Brits never had this view of each other. Their hate was much more shallow. Just because no rockets are fired now does not mean they are not being readied. Those who have the most to loose, Hamas, etc, are digging in. Their egos won't give in. Do you think that they will ever feel sorry for the way they treat woman or anyone even slightly from their unyeilding world view? They have already lost because they are sailing into the stormand think their poorly consturcted craft can weather the force of reality...

Past Member (0)
Thursday July 8, 2010, 7:23 pm
cromwell dividing catholics and protestants, the british imposed famine, the black and tans, bloody sunday, the guildford four, the british udf. britain hated the irish, at schools in the UK irish and catholic pupils had to stand facing the wall during assembleys, this stopped in 1983 after microsoft and intel moved there. What is your solution? let them win, take the high road and israel wins the war through education and good example, unless you feel that on a one to one basis, naked israel will evaporate, that it only exists like snow

Neal Rudin (21)
Thursday July 8, 2010, 8:17 pm
Because Hamas spends all its time and money on desruction of Israel and control of its people there is little true education that can take place there. No corporation would invest in creating such things as Microsoft and Intel. The level of coruption is too high for any high tech corp to. be interested in building there. If your idea was possible the money would come from the rich nations of the Middle East. This is unlikely to happen because of tribal conflicts. Education and security is needed before corporations will invest in these areas. The Irish and the English speak the same language therefore discussions can take place...

Past Member (0)
Thursday July 8, 2010, 8:40 pm
i'll rename you neal cant. what can be done?

pete O (242)
Friday July 9, 2010, 3:44 am
forgetting the pre prepped properganda here Neal, Im looking to the anglo Irish agreement with some hope as a model for the future. the biggest difference and ill give mr Blair his due here, is that those negotiating for a real settlement -removed the childish conditions - that we dont talk to organisations, previously accussed of targetting civilians, (a shamefull act by all armies all over the world thoughout the ages) -they did not suggest that there is a risk of revivalism, they just got on with what needed to be done,deal with the legalities and the crimes at a later stage. today any acts of resistance are dealt with by the law ...on both sides.Would this not be a better route than using militnat means ?
I dont think langage is a barrier, There are many negotiators within Hammas who are fluent with both Modern Hebrew and English and there are many computer tools to help translations also. please dont give up hope Neal dissagreeing people all over the world have found peace - it is if they really want it ?
If it helps the definition of winning to many palestinians is an end to their suffering
An end to the siege !

Past Member (0)
Friday July 9, 2010, 6:42 am

Great point. Neal is delusional and superficial in his arguments! If God wanted us dead? What kind of crap is that? And if he knew anything about the Middle East and the Israeli-Palestinian issue, he would have known that Hebrew and Arabic are Semitic languages and are extremely close to each other (add Aramaic to the equation). The Arab Palestinians have spoken Hebrew and the Jewish Palestinians spoke Arabic - perfectly and you couldn't even differentiate between an Israeli and Arab by "tongue."

And the ignorant continue on with denial and fabrications...


Past Member (0)
Friday July 9, 2010, 10:59 am
how can a border not be a problem. even driving through Kansas city Kansas and Kansas city missouri is uncomfortable. Federalism doesn't quitework, katrina, oil spill, land management. travel accross the United States and each state will warn you about the next. Mexico, aside from the billion dollar business men forced to hire criminals due to protect their interest due to 'the war on drugs', mexico each state encourages you to visit the next, and has no sense of xenophobia toward guatamala. why? lot's of resentment exists toward the spanish,(similar to the welsh, scots, irish toward the conquering english, who still don't integrate. When the christians began their infestation of the country they could not contain, 'spontaneous joy and sexuality', there best solution was 'Carnival' at least then it was slightly contained. travel through europe and the USA and you will not hear spontaeous music in the street. a passing car playing loud music will be frowned upon. in mexico poeple in the neighbourhood of such a vehicle will break into dance. religeon is about control, spontaneous joy is a sin and sex is feared. this area is so poluted by religeon that joy vents itself through abstact horror

. (0)
Friday July 9, 2010, 11:06 am
Here in the U.S., there is no way to avoid having distinct borders for each state. Since each state is guaranteed a certain degree of autonomy and that was part of the bargain entered into when each state voluntarily chose to join the Union. We value states' rights here in the U.S.

Nancy M (168)
Friday July 9, 2010, 11:10 am
And of course Driving through Kansas City, Kansas to Kansas City, MO is tough simply because of the traffic. One would find such traffic in any city- inlcuding but not limited to Chicago, Boston, Hartford, Indianapolis. Those cities are not near state borders (well maybe Chicago a little bit) and are still "uncomfortable" drives.

. (0)
Friday July 9, 2010, 11:16 am
True, Nancy. When citizens travel from state to state, we don't have to go through checkpoints or have permissions or anything else. In fact, the only way I would know that I was driving into another state would be if I happened to see the sign at the border (and many parts of state borders don't even have signs.) There's no difficulty involved in a private citizen traveling from state to state or moving to another state.

Nancy M (168)
Friday July 9, 2010, 11:17 am
Except making sure that your old car registration is cancelled and the plates returned. LOL

Past Member (0)
Friday July 9, 2010, 11:28 am
yes there's no way to avoid the distinct borders but why the xenophobia? what would a person fear more when travelling the the loss of freedom?

muslims jews and christians compete with each other for control over poeples sprit. a jewish state? absurd

kansas missouri with it's wealth to Kansas Kansas and it's poverty is a not quite san diego to Tijuana but very close. but it's not the economics

. (0)
Friday July 9, 2010, 11:41 am
We Americans aren't 'xenophobic' when it comes to different states, Laurence. I've lived in four different states in my life and never felt the any significant difference (except for a few different state laws and regulations.) Different regions do have somewhat differing cultures and, for example, much of the U.S. looks down upon us here in the South and sometimes ridicules our Southern culture, though they tend to love it if they actually move here (and here in the South we think that California is populated by crazy uber-liberals, of course), but that's not xenophobia. We aren't afraid of people in other states - we just sometimes may not fully appreciate a different region's way of life. But in simple day to day living we, in general, really aren't all that different just because we live in different states.

Past Member (0)
Friday July 9, 2010, 11:53 am
no work today lindsey, try to stay with the thread

Past Member (0)
Friday July 9, 2010, 11:57 am
poeple in the united states are frightened to even walk in their streets

Nancy M (168)
Friday July 9, 2010, 11:57 am
Laurence, you are the one who raised the issues of state borders within the US and "xenophobia". Lindsey is quite simply responding to your own comments.

Nancy M (168)
Friday July 9, 2010, 11:58 am
What does that have to do with the topic of this thread, Laurence?

. (0)
Friday July 9, 2010, 12:03 pm
True, Nancy. As I've reminded Laurence quite a few times when he objects to others going off topic, if he wishes the thread to stay on topic then he might prefer not to go off topic himself. A bit hypocritical to say the least.

And since I live in the U.S., Laurence, and you don't, I think it likely that I know somewhat more about how we live here. I've walked quite a few U.S. streets in my 50+ years of life - and most I walk without any fear whatsoever, of course. We aren't living in the Wild West (which never really existed to begin with in most respects) nor do most of us live in areas patrolled by gangs or the like.

Past Member (0)
Friday July 9, 2010, 12:11 pm
Nancy! Lindsey can speak for herself,

Past Member (0)
Friday July 9, 2010, 12:16 pm
what are you talking about? are you using the office computer, very naughty

. (0)
Friday July 9, 2010, 12:19 pm
Sorry, Laurence. I had assumed from your profile that you speak fluent English. Perhaps I was wrong. So I'll try to simplify things for you in future so that you'll have less difficulty in understanding what I'm talking about.

Nancy M (168)
Friday July 9, 2010, 12:30 pm
"Nancy! Lindsey can speak for herself, "


Past Member (0)
Friday July 9, 2010, 12:33 pm
assumed = past tense, therefore Spoke not speak.

''I've walked quite a few U.S. streets'' lot of girls find the internet works better

. (0)
Friday July 9, 2010, 12:38 pm
No. "Speak" as in comprehend and utilize a language. One who "spoke" a language once knew it but now does not. I assumed you have the ability to 'speak' it fluently and correctly now. Again, obviously I was wrong.

Past Member (0)
Friday July 9, 2010, 12:42 pm
yes you are wrong. stop being a flea. address the excellant comments of Neal, Atw and pete

Nancy M (168)
Friday July 9, 2010, 12:42 pm
There goes Laurence off on another tangent. We now have the streetwalker thread.

. (0)
Friday July 9, 2010, 12:42 pm
What is your native language, Laurence?

Past Member (0)
Friday July 9, 2010, 12:48 pm
Nancy, now i understand why lindsey defended french poodles

Past Member (0)
Friday July 9, 2010, 12:49 pm

. (0)
Friday July 9, 2010, 12:50 pm
Well, Nancy, I support the legalization of prostitution. When I lived in Germany I liked the way the German government handled it. They made it much safer for both the women and the customers and brought in tax revenue through taxing the hookers' incomes.

. (0)
Friday July 9, 2010, 12:58 pm
I defend all dogs, Laurence!

If your native language is Hebrew, are you of Israeli extraction (since I don't believe I know of any other nation which uses Hebrew as a national language)? If you'd rather not answer that, of course, then feel free to ignore the question since it's no one's business but your own.

Past Member (0)
Friday July 9, 2010, 2:04 pm
born in Tahiti migrated after winning best man competition, (i could carry two cups os steaming hot coffee and a dozen doughnuts)

Past Member (0)
Friday July 9, 2010, 2:15 pm
also a limbo dancing scholorshisp allowed me to attend the shalom shalom college of tourism

. (0)
Friday July 9, 2010, 2:26 pm
טיפשי ארנב

Past Member (0)
Friday July 9, 2010, 2:30 pm
כמה נחמד מצדך

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Friday July 9, 2010, 2:32 pm

טריקס הן לילדים!

Nancy M (168)
Friday July 9, 2010, 2:40 pm

(though it is not yet anywhere near sunset here).

Nancy M (168)
Friday July 9, 2010, 2:45 pm
Just Carole- your explanation point is on the wrong side.

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Friday July 9, 2010, 2:50 pm


Nancy M (168)
Friday July 9, 2010, 2:50 pm
אני הקוקייה על קורנפלקס

Past Member (0)
Friday July 9, 2010, 3:58 pm
אתה כל להיות בלתי הולמת. סקילה זה טוב מדי בשבילך

Past Member (0)
Friday July 9, 2010, 5:49 pm
me complaining that my poor neighbour, who has no intention of moving, has rats nesting in his yard, does no good. better that i help him find work, teach his children, then heap garbage on him? if my intent is to take the property then i would feed the rats while complaining to the aurthorities about the rats. this seems to be Israels MO. it constantley complains about the acts of a minority whilst encouraging them with actions.

i note that Neal uses Lindsey and Nancy to run interference, sad but i guess he enjoys conflict and opposes resolution

Nancy M (168)
Friday July 9, 2010, 5:53 pm
What is your idea of resolution?

Past Member (0)
Friday July 9, 2010, 6:47 pm

all terrorists are muslim
Ahmed is a Muslim
therefore Ahmed is a terrorist

all israelis are Jews
cohen is a jew
therefore cohen is an israeli


Past Member (0)
Friday July 9, 2010, 6:53 pm

cohen loves ahmed
ahmed loves cohen
ahmed and cohen live in California
there children are very happy.

ahmed loves cohen
cohen loves ahmed
ahmed lives in palestine
cohen lives in tel aviv
there children hate each other


Past Member (0)
Friday July 9, 2010, 9:07 pm
ahmeds son able
and cohens daughter rachel
both go to the same university.
on the grass at lunch they sit close by
each day moving closer
one day she speaks
ables heart stands still
and they talk about the weather.
one day he brings food and they share little secrets
and they walk and watch swans on a lake
a dog runs in front of them
she trips, he hangs on
and they laugh.
later at dinner they speak with their parents
and in all the stars that the sky suspends
there is no place that they can be friends

Neal Rudin (21)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 6:52 am
How do you overcome the paranoid lies coming from HAMAS? Your kute little ideas, though altimately reasonable will have to overcome this kind profound insanity. Yes, the children are the way, but in their way are people like this who send children into a make-believe world where they will be rewarded with 72 virgins.

Hamas MP Fathi Hammad Slams Arab and Islamic Regimes for Being Ruled by "Four Million Brothers of Apes and Pigs"

Following are excerpts from an address delivered by Palestinian MP Fathi Hammad, Director of Al-Aqsa TV, which aired on Al-Aqsa TV on January 22, 2008.

To view this clip, visit

Fathi Hammad: The wounded men have sacrificed themselves in defense of the honor of the Arab and Islamic nation, and in defense of the holy places. They have sacrificed parts of their bodies in order to stop the advance of the Jews, who want to uproot you. As you know, the Israeli flag has a star between two blue lines.
They want to establish the state of Israel between the Euphrates and the Nile.
The Jews want to invade Egypt and Iraq, to destroy Saudi Arabia, and to return to Khaybar.
(This is absolutely insane.)

Where is your valor? Stop being such cowards. The time has come for you to awaken from this deep slumber. The time has come for your honor, dignity, and valor to awaken. Where are you, Muslims? Are you monotheistic, or not? Are you Muslims, or not? Do you love Allah, or not? Do you love the Prophet, or not? As a sign of your love for Allah and the Prophet, you should sweep away the borders, which were created by imperialism. We are in need of weapons, we are in need of food, we are in need of moral support, as well as support by the media, economic support, medical aid, and support in weapons. Therefore, oh Arabs, who number 300 million, you cannot allow yourselves to be ruled by four million brothers of apes and pigs. Where is your nobility? Aren’t you ashamed of yourselves? Where are you, oh Muslims, who number one and a half billion, yet you are ruled by four million brothers of apes and pigs?


Where is your manliness? Where is your nobility You stand there like women and do not lift a finger. What is the meaning of this apathy? What is the meaning of this cowardice? What is the meaning of this fear?


Your armies have become like women, who hide and cannot lift a finger. Your armies, tanks, and planes have become rusty.


Past Member (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 8:08 am
the humans that have survived to date, a period minute in comparison to the dinnasours, and are predicted to survive to infinity are the social species. we poke and prod at the dying minority who hate.
time to remake 'Life of brian'?, no. these factions are no less rediculous, in spite of their elevation by the internet and needy journalist, there number is not even 5000.
one world no borders is a million years away but comming. manliness, hubrous and revenge belong alongside those old suits of armour used in the middle ages.
Israel is guilty of crimes and can stop commiting more

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 8:15 am
neal, for you

. (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 8:18 am
Hate is a healthy emotion and quite necessary to humanity. The problem arises when we base our hate on irrational reasons, use the emotion to attack the wrong targets, or allow it to be taken to an unreasonable extreme.

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 8:33 am
i imagine 'hate' as a small rat in a corner baring it's teeth, next to a bathfull of water, while my grandmother hovers over it, birdcage iin hand preparing to drown the squeeling rat, once in the birdcage, by submerging it in the bathtub

Nancy M (168)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 8:39 am
And of course, your grandmother's motivation has nothing to do with hate for the rat.

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 8:52 am

. (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 8:53 am
I 'imagine hate' as a tool which allows us to fight the really serious injustices of the world. I have an intellectual distaste for poor grammar and daytime soap operas; however, I tolerate them. I have a dislike for illiteracy and faith healing and take reasonable and moderate actions to oppose both. But I have a hatred for oppression of women and religious extremism; therefore, I fight them strongly when they occur.

Hate inspires us to greater and stronger action.

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 8:57 am
my grandmother had no anomosity toward the rat. the rat had to be destroyed, this what what she had been taught. rat perfectley innocent

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 9:05 am
six first person singulars, you must be very detached Lindsey, to think this is anything about you, you cut and past, you are the child in the corner who doesn't exist unless you stamp your feet, i,i,i,i,i,i, how do you think this add anything?

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 9:09 am
granmother perfectley innocent too

. (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 9:13 am
Illustration of a general concept, Laurence.

And, just as a sidenote, your post of Friday July 9, 2010, 5:49 pm contains one reference to 'me', two references to 'my', and five references to 'I'.

Me, my, my, I, I, I, I, do you think this adds anything?

Just another example of you, Laurence, displaying how the pot calls the kettle black! S.W.


Past Member (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 9:32 am
it points towards your motive; to make everything about you. but popularity involves humility lindsey. with your fabulous schooling, harvard, yale? i'm sure you are content with your lot. anyway good luck to you. certainly to can begin a thread all about you, 'do Lindsey's comments help?', try it lindsey, notify your 263 friends and nancy will support you. Time to shine lindsey, this is your moment

. (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 9:37 am
Nope. Dropped out of state college my first semester to get married and never returned.

And if you, Laurence, wish to avoid personal stories, you might begin by ceasing to chatter on about your grandmother! I don't mind in the least, but you appear to see something wrong with personalizing a subject.

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 9:54 am
Neal, Hamas is rather good at paranoid lies, aren't they? And they don't do themselves any favors by doing that.

Laurence, there's a rule you might remember when joining in verbal warfare. Inconsistency and hypocrisy tend to blunt your weapons. And you need to keep those weapons nice and sharp and clean if you expect to hit your target. (And your grandmother really should have released the rat to the wild. There's no need to kill any animal who can be relocated with ease.)

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 9:56 am
i guess the 2nd semester dealt with, metaphor and simili. i see a mature student Lindsey go back and finish

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 10:00 am
ditto to you becket

. (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 10:07 am
I think, Kate, that paranoia and lies exist on all sides of this conflict, to one extent or another. Propoganda is a time-honored tradition and Israel, like every other nation or group, is no stranger to it.

Neal Rudin (21)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 10:10 am
I'm leaving you today with a little more insight into the real world that your bantering back and forth fail to acknowlege. This blog started out in deep discussion of profound complexity and has been down graded to childish smears. I don't give a shit about you little puffery, Larry. By the way who is in the picture? I never heard of a girl named Laurence. What are you hiding? This article should staighten you out on the 14 centuries of distraction that this great and wonderful culture has been dealing with. They are so beautiful and yet, because of certain male domination and confusing beliefs, they are found teetering between the darkness and modernity. Respond to this article and not you inter-babblings, please...

Following are excerpts from an interview with Arab-American psychiatrist Wafa Sultan, which aired on Al-Hayat TV on December 4, 2008.

To view this clip, visit


"Islam Has Distorted the Concept of Honor"

Wafa Sultan: "If Islam really treated women with honor, we would see the positive consequences of that honor over the course of the past 14 centuries. Islam did not treat women with honor. On the contrary, it has distorted the concept of honor.

"My brother Rashid, I can call this pen a knife for 14 centuries, but it will never become a knife. It will remain a pen. Islam has turned these concepts upside-down, and has forced its followers to see things as their opposites – to view killing and beheading as an act of tolerance, to view taking a woman captive as an act of compassion, to view the plundering of spoils of war as their right, and to view masturbation against a little girl's thighs as marriage.

"Thus, it has destroyed the intellectual structure of the Arabic-speaking nation, and has produced people who cannot distinguish between things and their opposites – people with distorted thinking and warped mentality, as infertile as barren land, which cannot yield a thing.

"The best proof of this is the reality of Islam. When the Prophet Muhammad married the child 'Aisha, this was not an act of honor toward her childhood. When Muhammad married Zaynab, the wife of his adopted son, after seeing her naked and desiring her, this was not an act of honor toward married women. When Muhammad married the Jewish woman Safiya, upon his return from a raid in which he killed her father, brother, and husband, this was not an act of honor toward her. The same goes for all his marriages."

"The Subjugation of Women Reduces Them to a Level Lower Than Beasts – Not to Mention the Laws of Inheritance, Testimony in Court, The Beating Of A Wife Who Refuses to Go to Bed With Her Husband, And 'Honor' Crimes"

"Accusing women of being 'lacking in brains' is not an act of honor toward her. Human beings – whether male or female – are the property of their Creator. No human being has the right to own another. The subjugation of women reduces them to a level lower than beasts – not to mention the laws of inheritance, testimony in court, the beating of a wife who refuses to go to bed with her husband, and 'honor' crimes.

"Muhammad said in a hadith: 'Three things spoil one's prayer: a woman, a black dog, and a donkey.' Do they ever give this any thought? Do they realize that Allah chose the female body for his greatest invention – creation itself? Wouldn't it be moral to bestow upon the female body a certain holiness, instead of viewing it as impure?" [...]

"In The Arab Countries In Particular, You Cannot Say That the Status of Women Has Nothing to Do With Islam... Islam is An All-Embracing Faith, Which Intervenes in the Smallest Details of a Person's Life"

"As for the intellectuals who claim that Islam honors women, they remind me of someone trying to catch two rabbits, which are running in opposite directions, and never catching either one. On the one hand, they try to convince the reader or the viewer that they are 'liberal' and progressive, and support women's rights, while on the other hand, they try to please the clerics and their followers by claiming that Islam honors women. History will show that they were deceivers, not intellectuals.


"In my opinion, in the Arab countries in particular, you cannot say that the status of women has nothing to do with Islam. You cannot deny that there is a connection between the two. Islam is an all-embracing faith, which intervenes in the smallest details of a person's life – beginning with the way he should enter the toilet, and ending with – excuse my language – the way he should wipe his behind.

"Since Islam is an Arab religion, it has succeeded in erasing the culture, customs, and traditions of the Arabic-speaking peoples, more than in Islamic nations that are not Arabic speaking. Therefore, in the Arab world in particular, the status of women is an inevitable outcome of the Islamic teachings." [...]

"I Firmly Believe That the Islamic Faith Was Created to Serve Muhammad, and to Legitimize His Desires and Urges"

"I firmly believe that the Islamic faith was created to serve Muhammad, and to legitimize his desires and urges. As evidence, we have 'Aisha's words: 'I see that your Lord hastens to satisfy your desires.' These words, which she said with innocence and spontaneity, embody the goal for which the Islamic faith was formed.

"Islam allowed men to marry infants in order to justify Muhammad's marriage to 'Aisha. Islam forbade adoption in order to justify Muhammad's marriage to the wife of his adopted son – a thing forbidden by the pre-Islamic moral values of the Arabs. Islam permitted taking women captive and violating their honor in order to justify Muhammad's marriage to Safiya, after killing her husband, her father, and her brother that same night. Can you imagine any woman on the face of this earth witnessing with her own eyes the killing of her husband, her father, and her brother, and accepting the religion of their killer on the spot, and sleeping with him?! Can the human mind possibly accept such a story?" [...]

"I Have Witnessed Many Crimes Against Women Perpetrated Within My Extended Family and In the Framework of My Work"

"I personally did not suffer, but I have witnessed many crimes against women perpetrated within my extended family and in the framework of my work. As a doctor, I have entered homes that have not seen the light of day, and I have witnessed many crimes against women, perpetrated under the influence of Islamic teachings.

"In my family – at the age of 12 at most, my sister's daughter was forced to marry her cousin, who was over 40 years old. Her life with him was an intolerable hell on earth. When she felt there was no escape from this hell, she committed suicide. She set fire to herself, and within minutes she became ashes, leaving four children behind."


. (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 10:15 am
A good reminder of those other things which are also crimes against humanity, Neal.

Kit B (276)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 10:50 am
ATW - seems that each person that disagrees with you is delusional - perhaps you might look up the word and use it correctly. Disagreement is not delusion, but simply those who find your rants uninformed and extremely biased, not to mention the gross lack of knowledge of actual history. So you don't like Jews, Zionism, or Israel, but of course you're not in any way anti-Semitic because according to you that is simply a defensive term to distract from you own dialogue with yourself. In fact it is as real and the racist politics of America, and many other countries. Here's a FACT for you, Palestinians living in Israel take part in every day life as do all citizens of that country. They have a right to vote have representatives in the government and for the most part want little or nothing to do with the extremist hate mongers of Gaza or some in the West Bank. But that too is totally delusional - because it doesn't fit into a desired world view.

Crimes against humanity or complete misrepresentation of reality? Learn the facts behind the propaganda then form opinions.

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 11:00 am
Niel,'I'm leaving you today with a little more insight into the real world that your bantering back and forth fail to acknowlege. This blog started out in deep discussion of profound complexity and has been down graded to childish smears' the worst proponents seem to follow you and are listed as your friends. i will miis your input

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 11:35 am

Au Contraire Kit.

Your cheap attempt to put words in my mouth fail miserably. I cannot be anti-Semitic since I am Semite. Or am I a Jew Hater by Zionist definition? Interesting.. ignorant.

If I quote Illan Pappe, Dr. Shlomo Sand and Haaretz.. and many others.. I'm biased? How pathetic Kit.

Dialogue involves discussions based on facts and/or references. But when one side continues (as you do) to question "my references or facts" without presenting credible facts themselves, then the discussion is not a discussion; rather, an attempt to discredit someone based on their own insecurities and ignorance.

Kit: You're in Texas and you're talking about Palestinians "taking part in every day life as do all citizens?" The Israeli Arabs who take part in daily lives are discriminated against regardless of what you say. For example, while ignorant Zionists here state that Arab Israelis or Israeli Arabs (take your pick) do NOT serve in the Israeli Army, the fact is that they are excluded from such service so that they do not receive the same benefits the Jewish-Israelis receive after serving: free education, guaranteed jobs and brighter futures. Meanwhile, Arab-Israelis are excluded from admissions in Israeli universities because the preference is for those who served in the army (a cover)! Arab-Israelis then are forced to go overseas and finish their studies. Many remain overseas because of the better opportunities and this is exactly what your "favorite" government wants after all.

I lived and worked with Israelis and Palestinians in ISRAEL for 18 years! I saw things first hand on both sides of the "line." Most of what I saw and observed is Palestinian humiliation. Every day. And while you were sipping your favorite drink, in the comfort of your Texan (Hard-core-Republican) home, I slept in conditions so "severe," you wouldn't last for one hour!

Next time you attack me because of your Christian-Zionist beliefs or hard-core Republican views, at least try to provide an intelligent claim. Not one that is based on what friends and your "church" teaches you.



Kit B (276)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 11:59 am
So sad - you really can't help yourself. Personal control issues, most of us worked those out as children. Many here must be laughing when you try to label me of all things a republican, or associated with a religion. What the hell - children must play, and fortunately your words do no harm in the real world.

"I slept in conditions so "severe," you wouldn't last for one hour! Your quote not mine - but from a psychological point of view it's interesting and does reinforce my previous view.

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 12:05 pm

You're hopeless. But thanks for proving my earlier point!


. (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 12:22 pm
ATW, you state, "....the fact is that they [Arab Israelis] are excluded from such service [military] so that they do not receive the same benefits the Jewish-Israelis receive after serving...."

But Arab Israelis can, in fact, serve in the IDF if they wish, and some do so.

You also stated, "Arab-Israelis are excluded from admissions in Israeli universities...." But they aren't excluded and of course Arab-Israelis attend Israeli universities.

. (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 12:26 pm
And, Kit? Join the club. You (Jewish by birth, atheist by conviction, and liberal in politics) become a Christian-Republican in ATW's mind, just as I (Gentile by birth and atheist by conviction) become a closet Jew and non-atheist. At least the club is expanding.......

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 1:37 pm
William Hague has ordered the removal of an internet post in which the British ambassador in Lebanon praised the spiritual leader of Hizbollah

Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Fadlallah, died on Sunday aged 75, a hugely influential Shia cleric: labelled a terrorist by Western powers, he supported democracy and criticised Iran's ruling clerics; he condemned the September 11 attacks as acts of terror. And survived several assasination attempts by israel including a 440lb car bomb aimed at Fadlallah It killed 85 people, including children and pregnant women, and injured nearly 200.
but it's ok

Abdessalam D (145)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 1:41 pm
West Bank barrier a 'health hazard'

Al Jazeera's Nisreen El-Shamayleh reports on how West Bank families have been affected by the barrierIsrael's separation barrier makes it difficult for Palestinians living in the West Bank to obtain proper health care, according to a new report from the United Nations.

The report, prepared by the Office of the Co-ordinator for Humanitarian Affairs, found that thousands of Palestinians have limited access to East Jerusalem hospitals because of the barrier.

Ambulances are routinely delayed at checkpoints, and Palestinian vehicles are not allowed to pass through barrier checkpoints, forcing sick or elderly patients to walk.

Some Palestinians living in the West Bank cannot obtain permits to receive medical care in East Jerusalem - or they receive permits for shorter durations of time than the treatment requires.

"Males aged between 15 and 30 often have their requests for permits turned down on the grounds of security," the UN wrote.

"In many cases, it is also difficult for parents of sick children or for family members to obtain permits to escort patients to Jerusalem."

Israel's civil administration told Al Jazeera that 84 per cent of Palestinians who apply are granted permits to access hospitals or other medical facilities.

Verdict anniversary

Friday is the sixth anniversary of an International Court of Justice ruling that declared the security barrier illegal. The court called on Israel to dismantle the barrier and to compensate Palestinians affected by its construction.

Israel ignored the ruling, and construction continues: 61 per cent of the 707km barrier has now been built, according to the United Nations.

Palestinians hold routine protests against the barrier in the West Bank [AFP]Roughly nine per cent of the West Bank's territory will sit on the "Israeli" side of the finished barrier.

A number of villages are completely or partially surrounded by the barrier.

The UN's report noted that the barrier has also hurt farmers in the West Bank. Hundreds of farmers own land that sits between the barrier and the Green Line, the ceasefire line drawn at the end of the 1948-49 Arab-Israeli war.

Those farmers need to obtain permits to work their own land, and can only access their property through one of 57 barrier gates.

"The majority of the gates only open during the olive harvest season, and usually only for a limited period during the day," the UN said.

"Farmers are not permitted to stay on their land over night and must return at the last gate opening time."

More than 7,000 Palestinians live in those "seam zones" between the security barrier and the Green Line. They have little access to hospitals or other medical facilities once the barrier gates close for the night.

"Emergency medical care during those night hours requires co-ordination with the Israeli authorities, leading to serious delays," the UN wrote.

'21st-century colonisation"

Few Palestinians believe that, and polls routinely show that halting the wall's construction is one of their main concerns.

Saeb Erekat, the chief negotiator in the Palestinian Authority, recently called the barrier "colonisation in the 21st century".

"The wall is one of the ugliest manifestations of this grave violation of international law," Erekat said on Thursday.

"It separates farmers from their lands, children from their schools and families from each other. It is a land grab disguised as a security measure."


Abdessalam D (145)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 1:48 pm
You may also watch the vedeo at

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 1:56 pm

Kudos to you! But be careful.. for the uneducated self-appointed "righteous liberal atheists" here may accuse you of providing "questionable" and "one-sided" resources! :-)

Barking seems to be their favorite sport: providing nothing of substance!


Past Member (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 2:07 pm
Quote Niel ''the Palestinians,have taken the route of aggressive, competitive, continuing self destructive dream, they could have shared with the prosperity that the Jews brought to this barren land.
the improvements to these lands by ''the jews'' was not the product labour but charity from the west.

A lot of ''the jews'' behave like cuckoos feeding of the charity from the west and the naivete of it's host, the arabs. it would have been great if Israel the religeous state had shared, but how could it? it's a jewish state

. (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 2:23 pm
Then please do provide your sources, ATW, which support your highly questionable contention that Israel prohibits Arab-Israelis from serving in the military and excluded from admission to Israeli universities. Since surely you will enjoy proving me wrong!

. (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 2:54 pm
Since there don't seem to be any sources forthcoming to show that Israel excludes Arab-Israelis from serving in the military and that they are excluded from Israeli Universities, I suppose we'll just have to go with the sources which say that the contention is false:

"Druze Arabs and Circassians, like Israeli Jews, serve mandatory service in the IDF. In recent years, some Druze officers have reached positions in the IDF as high as Major General and many have received orders of distinction.

Service is not mandatory for all other Israeli minorities (notably Israeli Arabs but also Black Hebrews and others). However, a large number of Bedouin, as well as some Christian Arabs and even a few Muslim Arabs, volunteer. Six Israeli Arabs have received orders of distinction as a part of their military service; of them the most famous is a Bedouin officer, Lieutenant Colonel Abd El-Amin Hajer (also known as Amos Yarkoni), who received the Order of Distinction. Recently, a Bedouin officer was promoted to the rank of Colonel....."

"The northern faction of the Islamic Movement in Israel won the elections for The Arab Student Union at Tel Aviv University by a landslide Tuesday.....IQRA has already triumphed two months ago, when it was joined by members of the Islamic Movement’s southern faction at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. A few months prior to that, the Islamic Movement won the student elections at Haifa University....",7340,L-3551908,00.html


Past Member (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 3:01 pm
and there they are ATW cutting and pasting, ja ja ja

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 3:04 pm
Abdessalam's right that the barriers do cause many problems for the Palestinians. That's a simple fact.

But I'm surprised, ATW, that since you say you lived and worked with both Israelis and Palestinians in Israel for 18 years you wouldn't know that Arabs serve in the IDF and attend Israeli colleges. You must have led a really sheltered existence there not to be aware of those things.

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 3:07 pm
Oh, Abdessalam, you seem to be in trouble with Laurence for cutting and pasting. She doesn't like that!

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 3:07 pm

First of all, one of the main reasons, I -- myself -- "cut and paste" from my resources is because, if I don't, then I am challenged to provide a source, or accused of submitting unsubstantiated opinion.

To save all of us some time, I usually (as most experienced C2NN commenters do) just preface my resources with my summation and then post the quote.

Laurence? As I said earlier, I had a hard time -- considering your constant gibberish -- deciding WHAT side you are on!

And, as I also said earlier -- because you are so unclear, I'd appreciate your NOT taking my side.

At this point, your input is as useful as that of a common troll, who is only trying to disrupt purposeful and intelligent conversation.

PLEASE, prove me wrong and contribute something intelligent (other than . . . "neener, neener, neener . . ."


Past Member (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 3:10 pm
read the posts becket, atw correctley predicted your comment and your friends cutting and pasting

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 3:13 pm
and here comes the other pell grant candidate

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 3:16 pm

I'm not referring to Druze. I'm referring to Arab-Israelis of 1948. I wish some of these "attacks" can be refuted by facts.. not from some wishful thinking! You may have visited Israel and had a great time exploring historic sites and enjoying the night life. Living and working there - as in any country and not just Israel - is not quite the same as visiting. And you wouldn't learn the real face of any country by spending, say, a couple of weeks in it.


. (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 3:16 pm
A green star to Carole.

You're right, Carole. And especially when disproving false statements, providing citations is even more helpful. I prefer not to let disinformation stand uncorrected. It's one thing to blame a nation or a person for something true; however, it's quite another to promote a false fact used just to try and make them sound even worse.

And Kate is right in agreeing with Abdessalam. Palestine is like a checkerboard of roadblocks and other barriers and I'm sure it makes life difficult for the people there.

. (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 3:19 pm
The citation, ATW, doesn't just mention 'Druze':

"....a large number of Bedouin, as well as some Christian Arabs and even a few Muslim Arabs, volunteer...."

Arab-Israelis are not excluded from serving in the IDF (or the Universities) as you claimed.

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 3:24 pm
You want 'facts', ATw, then show us your own links giving facts supporting your own personal belief about Arabs being prohibited from being members of the Israeli military and colleges. Because your own unsupported word isn't a fact.

. (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 3:29 pm
And, ATW, "Arab-Israelis of 1948" included the Druze. They were certainly there at the time and previous.

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 3:31 pm
israel is guilty of crimes against humanity, shouldn't the peanut gallery be interested in all the fact supporting that claim? there's an abundance :^)

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 3:35 pm
Definition of peanut gallery:
peanut gallery - (figurative) people whose criticisms are regarded as irrelevant or insignificant (resembling uneducated people who throw peanuts on the stage to express displeasure with a performance); "he ignored complaints from the peanut gallery"
Please attempt to assume a posture ascending that definition, Laurence . . . You are in danger of becoming the avatar beside the description.

. (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 3:39 pm
Well, Carole, since I've already long since been in agreement that Israel is guilty of crimes against humanity I suppose that gets me moved out of the 'gallery'. (Nah, on second thought, I like the company better here in the peanut section.....)

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 3:45 pm

I can respect an opposing opinion, as long as it is reasoned. For every argument, there MUST be an opposing side (otherwise, it wouldn't be an argument).

But, for every side (like every family with black sheep), there will always be a certain percentage of adherents who will embarrass their most convincing comrades by insisting upon speaking loudly without reason, and thereby discrediting the hard work of those who, with reason, protest in earnest.


Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 3:50 pm

And, now, I have broken my own promise to myself because I'd vowed not to participate in any more of these pointless, ad nauseum exchanges (with all of the SAME PEOPLE -- none of whom are empowered to actually make any change, but only serve to contribute to the overwhelming vitriol).

[Bowing out . . .]

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 10, 2010, 3:57 pm
Do you realise that you are speaking in prose?

Neal Rudin (21)
Sunday July 11, 2010, 9:23 am
Do you realize that, Larry, you still hide behind the face a smiling woman. Who is she? This seems to be an attempt to distract us from your true nature.
To say that Israel is supported with the aid from America is partially true, but the enormous funds within the regimes of the Muslim world have barely made improvements upon their societies. Israel is one of the most creative and productive societies in the world because they focus on true survival and growth instead of rigid interpretation of confusing texts. How can such beautiful music and such worderful architecture and peotry also be coming from a world of deadly visions. Israel has great universities and yet with all the wealth in the Middle East, I know of no equivalent yet. The Saudis are starting to change this, but, woman can't drive nor can they own their own children in a divorce. The great wisdom that flowered in the Middle East has given sway to the fearful controllers who are afraid to agree that a balance is due. The corporo-Islamic powers are using their "religion" to manipulate their brethren. These are part of the same crowd that does their dirty work in the rest of the world. We are their pawns and we are discussing their game while we are in it. We should focus on the game players and not the pawns...

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 11, 2010, 11:25 am
very nice Neal, the girl is my ex, her spirit was ruined by hormel spam, she married hormel and now promotes a better world on the back of the slaughterhouses. yes yes yes to all that positive israel and yes yes yes to the jewish poeple. i see the flottilas with free supplies and wonder why the handouts, palestine has money. i think the wealth of israel in mostly intellectual? and how is that be protected without matching agrrements. let's face it there are nasty jews, the mayor of jeruselum telling cnn to f'ck off doesnt do much good. what is it about the israeli system that forgived vile offensive and ostensibly dishonest behaviour?

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 11, 2010, 1:21 pm
there's that saying ''you can do businbess with a thief but not a liar''. is it because the thief actually acts whereas the liar upsets and misdirects? so, setting off a rocket, chopping off a head are acts that can be understood, whereas being nasty just upsets poeple is incomprehensable and therefore unforgivable? well i don't know but the mayor of jeruselam is an animal, god help his victims

Past Member (0)