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Israel
4 years ago
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Shalom, I just wanted to say thanks to Northern for the invite to the group. I have browsed the topics and it looks like a lovely group. As an Israeli I thought it might be nice to add this topic and hopefully I will manage to answer any questions about Israel that people might have. I am alergic to propaganda in all forms, but am happy discuss Israel in a non bias forum.

Anonymous
4 years ago

Thank you for become a member, we look forward to hearing from you!

 

 

*wecome*

4 years ago

Welcome Eli! I just stated in another thread that I am shocked at the amount of antisemitism that is being allowed here at Care 2! I am also shocked at the number of Americans who are agreeing with it though I do know they are not the majority from my travels on the web.

 

The fact that Care 2 allows that kind of garbage here really distressed me. I am all for free speech but what is being posted is hateful in my opinion. It is the same thing that was done before WW 2 .... I am with a group of us who follow the posts and attack the lies - I am not Jewish - French actually but we must stand together!

 

We must remember history and not allow that to happen again. As well I hope you folks go after those nuclear sites in Iran and soon!

Eli sent me this ....
4 years ago

Arabs of Jewish Descent in Israel

 

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132800

 

IsraelNN.com) Up to 85 percent of Arabs in greater Israel stem from Jewish ancestors, it is estimated. Some of them want to become fully Jewish, but most are scared to even talk about it.

 

“In our search for the lost Ten Tribes in India and Afghanistan, we seem to have forgotten to look for their descendants in our very own backyard.” So says the narrator in a new film about the efforts of a former hi-tech pioneer named Tzvi MiSinai to search out the Jewish roots of Israel's Arab enemies – and to inform them of their Judaic heritage.

 

MiSinai has spent about a half-million shekels, he estimates, on these efforts. They include visiting dangerous places deep inside Palestinian Authority-controlled territory, hearing the stories of Arabs who remember observing Jewish customs, and distributing literature to Jews and Arabs alike.

 

One Arab says his father told him the secret of his family’s Jewishness on his deathbed, while another one, on the backdrop of a photo of the saintly Cabalistic sage Rabbi Abuchatzeira on his wall, says their roots have been known in his family for generations. Wrapping what apparently used to be kosher tefillin on his arm, he says, “My father used to do this, and he taught us to do it whenever someone was sick or in trouble.”

The Jews Who Didn't Leave
It is generally accepted that most Jews left the Land of Israel after the failed Bar Kokhba revolt in 135 CE. Yet many remained, and of these, many are still here, after having been forced to convert to Islam. “It turns out that a large part of the Arabs of the Land of Israel are actually descendants of forced converts to Islam over the years,” says Rabbi Dov Stein of the nascent Sanhedrin rabbinical council. “There are some studies that say that 85 percent of the Arabs in Israel are descended from Jews; others say there are fewer.”

 

Ben-Gurion Agrees
The claims are not new. Early Zionist leaders David Ben-Gurion and Yitzchak Ben-Tzvi wrote in a book 100 years ago: “If we investigate the origins of the Felahim, there is no doubt that much Jewish blood runs in their veins.” The authors implied that these Jews loved the Land so much that they were willing to give up their religion. The reference is probably to an edict in the year 1012 by Caliph el-Hakim, who ordered the non-Muslims to either convert or leave the Land of Israel. It is estimated that 90 percent of the Jews chose the former, though many continued to practice Judaism in secret. The decree was revoked 32 years later - apparently too late for about 75 percent of the converts.

 

Tzvi MiSinai continues to convince Arabs in Judea and Samaria that they are likely Jewish. The film shows him passing through the Gush Etzion checkpoint and distributing  pamphlets both to Israeli soldiers – “so that you’ll know who you’re checking here” – and to the Arabs waiting there – “so that you’ll know who the majority of you are.” Asked by an Arab if he is from the peace movement, MiSinai answers, “Yes, yes, peace, so that we can live together as one nation.”

 

The Sawarka Bedouin Jews
One place where MiSinai has apparently found very strong Jewish roots is in the Bedouin tribe known as the Sawarka. There are about 3-4,000 of them throughout the Sinai and the Negev, and they “are all Jewish,” says a tribal leader in perfect Hebrew. With his face camouflaged for the cameras, the Bedouin says, “They had no choice but to convert; this was centuries ago… I remember my mother and grandmother wouldn’t light fire on Sabbath, and they had a special mikveh…”

Others, in a Bedouin village east of Hebron, also remember burning a small piece of dough (reminiscent of the Biblical command to separate a small piece of dough when baking bread), lighting candles at graves, and tearing clothes and sitting shiva for seven days, and not three as is Muslim practice.

 

Even today, ritual circumcisions are carried out after the seventh day of birth.  Many homes in some of the Arab villages have doorpost indentations for a Mezuzah, with a scroll placed in some of them.

 

Israel Is Not An Apartheid State ....
4 years ago
Israel Is Not An Apartheid State

Even before the State of Israel was established, Jewish leaders consciously sought to avoid the situation that prevailed in South Africa. As David Ben-Gurion told Palestinian nationalist Musa Alami in 1934:

We do not want to create a situation like that which exists in South Africa, where the whites are the owners and rulers, and the blacks are the workers. If we do not do all kinds of work, easy and hard, skilled and unskilled, if we become merely landlords, then this will not be our homeland (Shabtai Teveth, Ben-Gurion and the Palestinian Arabs: From Peace to War, London: Oxford University Press, 1985, p. 140).

Today, within Israel, Jews are a majority, but the Arab minority are full citizens with voting rights and representation in the government. Under apartheid black South Africans could not vote and were not citizens of the country in which they are the overwhelming majority of the population.

The situation of Palestinians in the territories — won by Israel in a defensive war forced upon it by its neighbors—is different. The security requirements of the nation, and a violent insurrection in the territories, have forced Israel to impose restrictions on Arab residents of the West Bank that are not necessary inside Israel’s pre-1967 borders. The Palestinians in the territories, typically, dispute Israel’s right to exist whereas blacks did not seek the destruction of South Africa, only the apartheid regime.

If Israel were to give Palestinians full citizenship, it would mean the territories had been annexed. No Israeli government has been prepared to take that step.

Meanwhile, Palestinians from the territories are allowed to work in Israel and receive similar pay and benefits to their Jewish counterparts. They are allowed to attend schools and universities. Palestinians have been given opportunities to run many of their own affairs. None of this was true for South African blacks.

 

Anti semetism on the Net
4 years ago

Northern I am not so worried about the anti semetic posts. The fact being that all these acts do get noticed and regestered. It is good they show themselves for who they are. Anti semetism is just a symptom of a person who enjoys hating. People with good healthy values do not become anti semites, haters, bullies, racists, or abusers. They are all the same and cut from the same cloth. Weaker people get dragged down. I try to stick with the healthier mentality. The raise in anti semetism is a symptom of the raise in fustrasion in peoples lives. The anger within that demands to be let out. Jew hating is one of the most exceptable avenues for this anger. Funnily I see more extreem left wingers with more hate within them than any other group. Struggling for their own inner emancipation, they go on vicious attacks on any that stand for strong values. Now branded by the lefts as extreem right. I also beleive they will be in for a serious wake up call in the near future. Thanks for the welcome James and Northern

World Too Busy Attacking Israel
4 years ago
 to Heed HAMAS’ Latest Admission on Assassinated Mabhouh

By Debbie Schlussel

While the world continues its hilarious Keystone Kop-style “investigation” of the assassination of key HAMAS official Mahmoud Al-Mabhouh–and continues its usual attacks on Israel, HAMAS made an interesting admission.

They Are Heroes–Even More Than We Knew . . .

abuabedhitsquad

Alhamdillullah [Praise allah]: The Complete “Abu Abed” Hit Team

mahmoudalmabhouh

Mahmoud Al-Mabhouh, Now with the 72 Re-Virginized, Desecrated Israeli Bodies

It’s not like we didn’t know that Mabhouh a/k/a “Abu Abed” was the key weapons smuggler in the Iran-to-Gaza HAMAS weapons network.  But HAMAS now admits it and reveals yet more about his savagery.  Yet, despite this confirmation that Mabhouh’s erasure from this world was a  huge net plus, the world continues its stupid look at credit card records for false identities, which will prove nothing.  It’s comical, really.

Also comical, but not surprising in the least, is that I only saw the HAMAS revelation in a teeny-tiny, one-sentence blurb I might normally have missed, in today’s Wall Street Journal.  Didn’t see the news on any nightly newscasts or in any other major newspapers.  And even the tiny hint in the Journal didn’t include the story about how this animal celebrated by the corpse of Israeli soldiers.  Like I said, Israel did the world a favor eliminating this barbarian.

The right-hand man of a Hamas leader assassinated in Dubai has confirmed Israeli claims that his boss supplied weapons to Palestinian militants.

Mohammed Nassar spoke to Hamas’ Al Aqsa radio in Gaza from Damascus. A transcript was released Tuesday.

Nassar was an aide to Mahmoud al-Mabhouh, who was assassinated Jan. 19. . . .

Al-Mabhouh allegedly smuggled weapons from Iran to Gaza.

Nassar says al-Mabhouh “never stopped thinking about how to fight the occupation by supplying quality weapons to the Palestinian fighters. ”

The aide also describes how al-Mabhouh celebrated killing two Israeli soldiers in the mid-1980s by standing on one of the corpses.

The world didn’t give a damn about his murders of these two Israeli soldiers and countless innocent civilians who died at the hands of the weapons he killed. And yet, we’re supposed to be shocked–shocked!–at the rightful elimination of this cretin who murdered, celebrated, and desecrated.

Thank you, Israel, for taking out the garbage while the rest of the world whines over its shawarmeh, cries over its brie, and contemplates its navel.

4 years ago

Hi Eli! I have actually been to your beautiful country. Back in 1978- a while ago. Had a great time.

I have been surprised at the amount of anti-Israeli sentiment here at Care2. Ah well.

4 years ago

Eli, Welcome aboard.  Just so you know I take a person for what they are.  I really don't care to much about heredity or ethnicity.  If you are a good person, you are a good person. 

 

I believe Israel has been a friend and allie to the United States.  Just like the United States, they are not guilty and not completely innocent either of all the attrocities laid upon them.

 

Nice to meet you.

4 years ago

Eli, thanks for joining us.
I have never seen so much hate in people now days.
I dont even think thy like them self's.

4 years ago

There was a reason that fellow was assassinated .... it will come out .... As well if you recall the assault at the Olympics one year when a good number of the athletes from Israel were killed - Israel did not stop until every last one of those terrorists were dead. Don't mess with Israel. If you go after them it is like playing with the tail of a rattlesnake and I don't blame then in the least.

4 years ago

A very BIG welcome, Eli!

Antisemitism? It stinks...............

Assasination of the Hammas guy? Well.................nobody deserves to be assassinated,IMO.

4 years ago

A very hearty welcome Eli ... I think Israel has a highly educated, well-informed population and I am very impressed with the degree of self-discipline Israel faces on a daily basis. Israeli people have gone through enourmous trials and tribulation in the past; yet, your resolve and dignity triumph in the end. I am proud you are a fellow member of FSM.

Anonymous
4 years ago

On Israel I have mix feelings. Yes they have the right to be where they are and to fight to keep it, but some of the things they have done does put them in a very bad light.

 

 

 

 

4 years ago

I wish I could tell you Israel is perfect. It is not. But neither is there 1 nation in the world that is perfect and has never made a mistake. People are People and prone to imperfections. Israel is no different. But No other nation has been under constant attacks since the day of it's creation. Be it in 48 or in 67 when Israel was 4 million (mixed of Jews arabs Druze and beduin) This state was attacked by 5 arab nations equaling 56 million. The intent then as has always been and still is today, was genocide. to complete the nazi plans for the Jews. What was common in the times of Hitler is no less common today from the mouths of Palestinians. Jews to the ovens and heil hitler. Even with all the odds against Israel. The young state was victorious. As it was in 48 when arabs also attacked and in the yom kipur war. Wars are never nice. infact they bring out the uglies sides of man. But when face with the intent of an enemy that intends to anialate you. You fight to victory because you have no other choice. One can look at the Israeli army and come to many conclusions, but one could also look at other armies. For example the Selous Scouts and their acts in Rhodisia. Disbannded in 82. What should be said of the British government and it's army? The truth is that the Israeli army has done more than any other army in history to protect innocent lives.

4 years ago

Mmmmmmmmmmm, I agree with what you say James. Eli, with the greatest respect, I cannot condone everything Israel does/has done.......Gaza for example. I do not want to get into an argument, it is your country and it is right that you should defend it, but there are always at least 6 sides to every argument! Really, I just wish everyone could just get along.

4 years ago

Lynn I also don't condone all Israel does. I also have no problem discussing in a healthy forum Israels acts and what lead to them. To discuss with people that are open minded and willing to look at both sides equally is very different than to discuss Israel with anti semites and the likes. On a basic level I was for going in to Gaza. The reasons being. Israel had pulled out of Gaza. Gaza had never been linked to the westbank but prior to 67 was ruled by Egypt. The pull out should have left them in much the same situation as pre 67. Infact if anything, the Jews left behind agreculture that had not been before. Also housing that just had to be taken over and used. The Gazans, instead of using these tools, destroyed them. Gush katif was a very strong income to Israeli economy, it could have been utiliesed but was not. From the onset of the pull out by Israel, rockets came. Imagin the IRA firing non stop rockets into the UK from Belfast or some other dencly populated area. For 8 years the rockets rained into towns. Children grew up knowing nothing else. 75% of the population in southern Israel suffered from psycological disorders due to the non stop attacks. Many unable to sleep because of constant fears. 8 years under terror 24/7. Many having to keep their homes and at the same time moving to safer area's to live. The financial burdens. Children being forces to seperate from their families and go to boarding schools just for safty. Those children suffering nightmares because they feared for their families who were still in danger. 8 years living in constant fear. Thousands of rockets rained down. Some days upto 300 rockets rained onto these towns. It is only from the love of G-d more people were not killed. When Peole were killed, the people of Gaza danced on the rooves and handed out sweets in celibration. Gazans did nothing to improove their lives and livly hood. They invested soully in arms and rockets. This while Israel was also giving them all the services for free. Yes. phones, internet, electricity, water. The electrical company even gave them services under fire of rockets. Some workers were killed. How ludicrac can life be. We were paying financially and with the lives of our people and all we got back was rockets and terror. Remember Gaza was free. It was now as it was pre 67. They could have turned around and invested in building their lands. Are we to blame that Egypt refused flat blank to have the rule returned to them. Egypt wanted no part. What would America do If Mexico was firing rockets across it's boarders. Or any other country in the world. What would they do. 8 years and the international community was silent. No other country in the world would have been so restrained. Israeli's had had enough. The public was demanding to stop the constant terror. Gazans were dancing to victory at each and every death. Rockets landing in schools kindergatens and even hospitals. Even a simple children birthday had to be held in bomb shelters. What would any other country have done to stop this constant terror within it's boarders?
When a brithishsoldier or American soldier goes to fight in Iraq or afganistan he has no personal emotions. He does what his commander tells him. For the Israeli soldeir, he is firstly defending his country, in his country from terror. Something that has most likely effected him personally. It is much closer to home. Possibley he or someone in his family was or is a victim of this terror. After 8 years of being under terror it is likely he will take actions that a person without that burden would not do. The Israeli army as a whole acted in a way that it should be proud of. It went in to Gaza and did it's best to protect innocents. Fighting terrorists is not like fighting a uniformed army as many American and UK soldiers have learnt in Afganistan and Iraq. The dangers are far greater as it is not clear who the enemy are. Often it can be too late to know who is who. Hamas used all the tricks in the book. including firing from UN compound. Using red cross ambulances to transport both weapons and terrorists. Hiding in Hospitals. The choices that must be made in such wars are hard. You cannot risk the lives of many at the price of saving 1 innocent. Had hamas valued the lives of it's people it would have protected them and not used them for it's own advantage. The rules of war cannot aply when fighting terror. Warnings were sent out by phone and flyers to give a chance for those innocent people to get out of the firing line. What army is willing to loose the advantage of suprise, risking it's own people. Can you imaging American and British forces doing that in Feluja. It gives the enemy lots of time to booby trap the entier area and set traps of all kinds. Israel did this just to protect innocents. No Israeli would ever dance at the death of another human being. Israeli's celibrate life and not death. I do not believe Israel had much choice in stopping the rockets. It would have been better had Gazans decided to create a life and not be obsessed with terrorising Israeli's. For those of southern Israel, it is the first time in 8 years that they can live their lives without the constant fear. 1/4 of a million peole now sleep at night, can go around their daily business but the emotional scars are still there. It took 8 years for Israel to come to the desission to attack Gaza. It was not taken lightly. It was forced upon Israel.

4 years ago

Eli...............thank you for taking the time to explain the Israeli position so well. I appreciate it!!! To be quite honest with you, I have never heard the "other" side of the argument before.

4 years ago

I have keep up with Israel for several years. Israel dont wont War, but thy have no choice when the Palestinians keep firing rockets and sending suicide bombers. If one rocket hit America thy would have been war not 300 rockets. Israel handed over Gaza for peace and no peace came. The Palestinians destroyed every thing Israel had built. Gaza looked like a Garbage dump even before the war. All the Jihad and the Muslim Extremist wont's is Israel destroyed pushed into the sea. Right now Obama and the EU along with other country's wont Israel to divide the land God gave his chosen people Israel for peace. If the land is divided it will only allow the Palestinians to fire rockets even closer at Israel, no peace will come. Peace will come only when Jesus Christ comes to defend his people. We are seeing, Prophecy's being fulfilled like never before. We are in the last generation, believe it or not.

4 years ago

Michael, I'm not one to believe we are in our last generation, even though it appears like it! haha  But I am 100% behind your statements about Israel and how no matter what they do, no matter how kind, there are countries over there that just will not be happy and will not put down their weapons until there is no Israel first, and then no Jews second.

 

Let's say they succeed in wiping out all the Jews, (heaven forbid!).  I don't believe they will put down their weapons then either!  They will find some other reason to hate and want to kill.  I'll even go as far to say they could conquer every continent, every island, convert every person on the planet to Islam, and they would STILL find a reason to wage a war! 



This post was modified from its original form on 06 Mar, 8:48
4 years ago

Shalom Eli. It is nice to have an inside opinion in side the mideast. My sister and brother -in-law toured the holy land several years ago. They were awe struck. I strongly support Israel. I've never heard from, our unbiased media, LOL, any interviews of Israelis on the democrization of Iraq. What is your opinion Eli?

4 years ago

I try to be as unbias and understanding as I can and to see both sides of the Israeli, Palestinian troubles. I was also very much a political activist putting foward all and any info to the public to give an honest understanding. I do not aprove of political agenda's or media agenda's. Honesty is the best way to finding the right answer. (If there is a right answer). As far as democracy in Iraq goes, I think it is a lost cause. Democracy in the west comes from a value system found in the bible (acts/Laws of Bnei Noah). It had developed over many centuries. A recognition that all men are equal under G-d. This is not the teachings of Islam. Any form of government must run paralel to their faith. Look at the choice of Gazans. They democraticly chose Hamas. This should as much be a window into what their society wants. A strong ruling hand. Much like a matriarch who makes the ultimate decisions. Christian/Jewish values cannot work in an Islamic society. Turkey was on the right track when it thought to do an overhaul of Islamic law.  By forcing western values in Iraq, it can only bring anarchy and the abuse of freedoms.

4 years ago

Eli.............thanks for the post! But it was actually the Greeks who invented democracy, or so I was taught!! But then I don't think that democracy is necessarily the best form of government. Nor do I agree that the "West" should be forcing the concept down the throats of other nations just because they think it is "right". There are other opinions! 

4 years ago

Eli,......  I have no sympathy with people who make heroes of children who strap on bombs and commit suicide while killing innocent people.  That being said, and do not agree with the US policy of funding Israel.  This is money that the citizens of the US are currently borrowing from China and other Asian countries.  Americans are financing more than $2000 per year per Israeli household.  This and a number of other financing arrangements are secured by a very powerful lobby in Washington.  As a matter of principle, special interests are  destroying America.  If you are indeed friends of American and Americans, you will ask your government to remove that lobby from our nations capital.  That would be true friendship.  

 

BTW, I oppose all foreign aid except for emergency situations.  The reality has changing.  The US is bankrupt.  We have more than $53 Trillion in unfunded liabilities and a $14 Trillion national debt.

4 years ago

 But then I don't think that democracy is necessarily the best form of government.

 

What would be better and why?

4 years ago

Jim, how is supporting Israel, our best ally in the middle east, "destroying America"?

4 years ago

Please read my post. ...I said:  "special interests are  destroying America.".....  And Israel is quite capable of supporting itself. 

 

 

4 years ago

I did read your post, and you specifically tied Isael to "special interests" who are "destroying America" Are you now retracting that statement?

 

And Israel is not capable of supplying all of its defense without our help. Defense and foreign relations, including the military aid of our allies, is a proper role of government.



This post was modified from its original form on 08 Mar, 9:22
4 years ago

Retract my statement?  No.  As long as Israel uses a Lobby for financial gain at the expense of American taxpayers they are a Special Interest. 

 

And, no you are completly wrong. Israel IS quite capable of defending itself.  This is not anti Israel.  It is anti ALL Special Interests.  No exceptions.  Aparently you are a pro Lobby, pro Special Interests advocate.  I'm not. 

4 years ago

So how does the Israeli "lobby" destroy America? You still are evading that question.

 

And, no, without or support Israel cannot defend itself. And we have every right to help them as our ally.

4 years ago

Jeffery, probably the best form of government, were it possible, would be a benevolent oligarchy. I'd actually quite like to live in Cuba, so that CAN work well too.



This post was modified from its original form on 08 Mar, 10:17
4 years ago

Wow.  I guess what I am saying is going over your head.  The costs of Government because of Special Interests has brought America to a financial catastrophe.  Israel is a part of that because they are a Special Interest.  The costs of government is just going to get worse in the future as unfunded liabilities come due.  What part of we can't afford to continue along this path don't you understand?

 

As far a Israel goes, you can fund them and other causes with you own money if you wish.  If you force me to pay for what you believe using the power of government, then I have a problem with that.  I tell people on the Left the same exact thing for their  ideas. 

 

I am Conservative/Libertarian not neo-con or Progressive/Liberal.  Neo-Con policies, as well as Liberal/Progressives policies have proven to be unworkable.  It is time America got back to the polices that made this nation great.   That excludes the expansion of government programs social welfare programs and a futile policy of international interventions and endless wars.  Those policies only weaken our nation.

4 years ago

Interesting that Americans think that the USA was set up as a Democracy.  It wasn't.  It was formed as a Constitutional Republic with some Democratic empowerment of the people as a unrecognized check to the potential abuses of Government.  Indeed, Democracy is not even a word found in the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence.  The Rule of Law under the Constitution is what the foundations of America is about.  Government has limited powers under this document.  Unfortunately, both the Left and the Right seek to ignore the Rule of Law to use Government for their own purposes.  The result has been the tag team on America we currently "enjoy".  Both sides expand Government at the expense of the People. 

 

Pardon me in advance for my passion on this.  The blood of my family is part of the soil of this nation.  They have been giving their lives for freedom since the beginning of our nation.

4 years ago

You share the common tactic of the left in resorting to insult when you can't defend your claim.

 

All you've done is say you don't like lobbyists and special interests, and followed that with an unsupported claim that they are causing financial ruin. There is no logical connection, however, between your dislike of something and it's causing financial catastrophe - that is merely an empty assertion on your part until you back it up.

 

As for Israel, we will fund it with Federal money for as long as we deem it in our interest. Right now the American people have repeatedly supported that policy, and through our elected representatives we continue to do so. You don't have to like it, but you are in the minority - which means you'll have to live with it or convince a majority to change.

 

While I agree with you on the expansion of government social welfare programs, that is a red herring here. Defense, on the other hand, is a proper role of the Federal government - and perhaps its most important. Again, your empty assertion that our action in the Middle East do nothing to strengthen our security is highly aguable.




This post was modified from its original form on 08 Mar, 10:44
4 years ago

Jeffery, probably the best form of government, were it possible, would be a benevolent oligarchy. I'd actually quite like to live in Cuba, so that CAN work well too.

 

That is a very odd notion. Why do you think that?

4 years ago

I don't think it is an odd notion!!! I don't think I can adequately answer your questions within the confines of this thread either! Plus, it isn't really relevant is it? Forgive me if I am wrong, but I get the feeling that you are not really interested in what I think but just want to start an argument. If I am wrong about that, I apologise.

4 years ago

I get the feeling you're evading the question.

4 years ago

And proclaiming the superiority of a bankrupt and repressive regime is indeed odd.



This post was modified from its original form on 08 Mar, 11:13
4 years ago

So, I'm Left?  THAT would really amuse people I know.  Anyone who disagrees with you is on the left?  Or my tactics are from the Left?????  If I insulted you I apologize.  It was unintended. 

 

But give me your proof that American foreign policy and the wars have been effective. And I've read the propaganda from neo-con sources.....May I suggest you read a real conservative on that issue, not the neo-con propaganda.  You might start with  Andrew Bacevich:  The Limits of Power: The End of American Exceptionalism, or Washington Rules: America's Path to Permanent War

 

".....lobbyists and special interests, and followed that with an unsupported claim that they are causing financial ruin."  Who do you think wrote the TARP Bill, and the current Health Care "Reform Bill".  Who wrote the medicare prescription drug bill?  And didn't you notice that "our" Representatives when they leave office go to lobby s for additional payoffs?  But better yet try this site:  It explains in detail what and how the Special Interests are doing and how it's lead to a corrupt government and runaway budget deficits.  Site with video presentations:  http://www.ourcaucus.com/

 

As far as the majority, there is nothing in the Constitution that allows Congress to give money to a foreign government.  Or to engage in War without a Declaration of War.   US Constitution:  http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html

 

Majority rules:  The Left would argue that they should be allowed to fund social programs.  Nothing says that the majority is correct anyway.  If 51% of the American people voted to confiscate the wealth of 49%.  That's why the USA is a REPUBLIC not a Democracy.  See previous post.  Actually you might want to start HERE to understand what the American form of government is:   video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGL8CiUtXF0

 

 

4 years ago

So, I'm Left?  THAT would really amuse people I know.  Anyone who disagrees with you is on the left?  Or my tactics are from the Left?????  If I insulted you I apologize.  It was unintended. 

 

Where did I ever even hint you were on the left? Go back and read it again - I said you were using a tactic common on the left. That's something I would hope nobody on the right would ever do. We're supposed to be smarter than that.

 

But give me your proof that American foreign policy and the wars have been effective. And I've read the propaganda from neo-con sources.....May I suggest you read a real conservative on that issue, not the neo-con propaganda.  You might start with  Andrew Bacevich:  The Limits of Power: The End of American Exceptionalism, or Washington Rules: America's Path to Permanent War

 

You were the one who made the claim that it was wasted - it's customary that the person making the claim provide the substantiation for it. I would add a couple things, though. First, the world economy depends on the free flow of oil in that region -  flow that enemies of the west would love to disrupt. Our policies there have averted that disaster so far. Second, we have Islamist enemies there who have vowed our destruction, and have attacked in the past. Thinking we can simply retreat to our own borders and repel any threat is hopelessly naive; and for that reason, nobody who is actually responsible for our security dares take that view. It would be disastrous. It's much better to disrupt and destroy the threat at its source.

 

".....lobbyists and special interests, and followed that with an unsupported claim that they are causing financial ruin."  Who do you think wrote the TARP Bill, and the current Health Care "Reform Bill".  Who wrote the medicare prescription drug bill?  And didn't you notice that "our" Representatives when they leave office go to lobby s for additional payoffs?  But better yet try this site:  It explains in detail what and how the Special Interests are doing and how it's lead to a corrupt government and runaway budget deficits.  Site with video presentations:  http://www.ourcaucus.com/

 

The TARP bill is a disaster, but not because of lobbyists. It was passed because Bush and Congress panicked and resorted to bailouts in fear of financial collapse. Lobbyists on all sides make their case, but then we do have free political speech in this country. It is a childish oversimplification, though, to claim that it is lobbyists who determine our policies and legislation. They have influence, but then so do the voters who actually elect Congress and the President. You haven't even begun to make the case that lobbyists are destroying the country. You simply re-asserted any empty claim. In the end Democrat administrations enact Keynesian policies, and Republican administrations tend toward lower tax policies. That has nothing to do with lobbyists, and everything to do with party approach.

 

As far as the majority, there is nothing in the Constitution that allows Congress to give money to a foreign government.  Or to engage in War without a Declaration of War.   US Constitution:  http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html

 

Not this again. This isn't even a serious argument. Congress gave its approval for the war, and there is nothing in the Constitution that prevents our giving money to allies.

 

Majority rules:  The Left would argue that they should be allowed to fund social programs.  Nothing says that the majority is correct anyway.  If 51% of the American people voted to confiscate the wealth of 49%.  That's why the USA is a REPUBLIC not a Democracy.  See previous post.  Actually you might want to start HERE to understand what the American form of government is:   video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGL8CiUtXF0

 

Of course the left would argue that - and if they get the votes, they are allowed to do that. That's what elections are about.

 

That nothing says the majority is correct is entirely irrelevant. The majority gets what it wants. If you disagree with the majority you can acquiesce, or campaign to persaude a majority to your viewpoint.

4 years ago

Jeffery and Jim, except for Israel, if I'm not mistaken, you two are actually on the same side about our governmernt.  Before I get into why, I would like to reply to Lynn about her idea.  I can agree with you on an oligarchy gov't IF we get to choose who the people are that serve in that gov't and we can replace them every 4 to 6 years.  That was the original intent for this country.

 

Jim, you are right about special interests, aka Lobbyists.  They corrupt our politicians and they are draining our country!  However, I've never heard of a Lobbyist for Israel.  Israel would fall under Clinton's jurisdiction.

 

Jeffery, I think there is a communication gap.  The way you describe yourself and what I feel from your posts is you would also be against Lobbyist, correct?  If so, you two are saying the same thing, omitting Israel.  The reason I believe this is because I agree with both of you, except the part about Israel and if you don't like Lobbyist, you must be left wing.  Not liking Lobbyist is bipartisan, but mostly a right wing tradition.

 

I happen to agree that we should help Israel when they need it.  For the past decade or 2, our help has been in selling them American weapons and providing training to defend themself and trying to mediate between them and their current enemy.  To my knowledge, we have not dispatched any troops on behalf of Israel.  If we aren't sending troops and are selling weapons, not providing, I don't see why that much would be a problem.  If we are giving them money, then I agree, we need to stop.  In fact, I believe we need to stop giving money to ALL other nations until we can fix our own economy! 

 

It's notoriously difficult to discuss politics without anger flaring up.  I'm amazed the peace has lasted this long in this group!  For that I applaud you all.  Even the nuts who think differently ....  I'M KIDDING!!   This is a great group and I very much appreciate everyone's abililty to put feelings in check and discuss opinions in the friendliest manner!  For what it's worth, I really am proud of this group!

 

4 years ago

"Interesting that Americans think that the USA was set up as a Democracy.  It wasn't.  It was formed as a Constitutional Republic"

 

Wow Jim!  I was begining to wonder if anyone knew that anymore!  People today seem to assume we are a "democratic nation".  You are absolutely correct that we are actually a Republic.  Some may recall the pledge of allegience, "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

 

It has been my experience that not many people know this or know the difference between the two!  This is another reason for gov't to get out of our education process!  Our gov't is DICTATING what our schools are to teach.  Since Obama has made himself czar over all of education, he will now use (and is using) the system to indoctrinate our children to be progressives.  Once we learned (a few years back) that our children were not being taught the real and complete history of our country, my entire family has started teaching our kids and grandkids the facts about our country, the fore fathers and why wars were faught.  Like the Civil War which everyone today thinks was about freeing slaves instead of about states rights and the limitation of the federal gov't.

 

I wish I could find the quote of one of our founding fathers.  In short, he meant it is every American's responsibility to watch gov't and make sure they do the right things!  We have not been doing our duty since WWII if not earlier.  We MUST wake up and pay attention to the destruction being brought upon us by people we hired to speak OUR voice.  Too many politicians will reply to your letters stating what THEY believe and what THEY will do, regardless of how the people feel.  We MUST change this and get back to the powerful and rich country that we were.

4 years ago

Again you completely missed the points.  You haven't even begun to make the case that lobbyists are destroying the country. ....... Did you bother to look at the evidence on the site I provided?  The answers are well documented by facts and specific examples.  To document it here would take many days. 

 

It is a  fallacy that the majority/democracy is what our government is. and if they get the votes, they are allowed to do that. That's what elections are about. You have the same arguments that Liberals have about the power of Congress.  Congress does not have the right to override the Constitution.  Nor does the President.  Did you bother with any of the information including the Constitution?  You don't believe the Constitution is "a serious argument"?  Well, that's a problem alright.  We've gotten to this place by thought like that.  So, if radical liberals or socialists take over government it's OK for them to confiscate everything and put people in prison without trial?  No?  Well where do you draw the line?   Were does it end?

 

"We are all Keynesians now.":  Richard Nixon ...... "In the end Democrat administrations enact Keynesian policies, and Republican administrations tend toward lower tax policies."   Both Republicans and Democrats are Keynesian.  Note:  The size/expense of Government grew just as fast under Republican leadership.  Taxes decreases were offset by  deficit spending.  Did you note that Rothbard stated that deficit spending had the same effect as taxes?......You mention JM Keynes.  Have you read his works, or Rothbard or Hayek, or  Thomas Woods or......well I could go on for for a while.  You don't seem to understand what that is, or how it even relates.  I would suggest that you spend some time around the Von Mises site:   http://mises.org/.....or not.

 

Free flow of oil?.....Good point.   After the US invasion of Iraq, the price of a barrel of oil went from $27 to a high of $140.  Now it's about $82.  Still up over 300% in 7 years..........

 

Respectfully Jeffery, you don't seem to have an very open mind.  You dismiss any other viewpoint.  Won't bother to check references.  Your ideas are set.    Sadly, I used to think like that, so perhaps there is hope.

 

We agree to disagree.  Let's leave it at that.

 

In Liberty,

               JS

 

 

 

 

4 years ago

"It is a  fallacy that the majority/democracy is what our government is. and if they get the votes, they are allowed to do that. That's what elections are about. You have the same arguments that Liberals have about the power of Congress.  Congress does not have the right to override the Constitution.  Nor does the President."

You are dead on accurate there my friend!  The keyword in that paragraph, for those that missed it, is FALLACY!

 

We are no longer operating under the Constitution!  Please, if you don't recognize that is happening today, read the Constitution again and note what exactly, the federal gov't is ALLOWED to do! 

 

I tried to start a new topic but I guess it didn't go through.  I'll try again so we can move this off topic discussion over there. 

4 years ago

Folks, I've started a new thread at http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?gpp=22121&pst=1292950 to discuss the off topic discussion here.

 

Jeffrey, Jim, I think you guys will find the 3 part article very informative!  See you there.

4 years ago

"Like the Civil War which everyone today thinks was about freeing slaves instead of about states rights and the limitation of the federal gov't."  Yeah, history kind of got rewritten on that point. 

 

Our form of Government:  I left this for Jeffery, but I think you'd like this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGL8CiUtXF0

 

I really like the above because of the Franklin quote: My sister dug up some info on a ancestor and a note from old Ben!  How cool is that!

 


4 years ago

Very cool on the old note!  Thanks for that video link.  It was VERY well done and extremely informative!  I think I'll have my grandkids watch that.

Anonymous
4 years ago

...Welcome Eli !

4 years ago

Jeffery, I started saying what I believed here it would be like talking Japanese to a deaf mute................achieve nothing! You would condemn me as an extremist dangerous commie and I would accuse you of being a right wing radical! No point! Suffice it to say that I don't happen to believe that money and "freedom" actually count for much. 

 

Just like to point out that a Constitutional Republic can and often is also a democracy. A Constitutional Republic refers to the make up of the government really and the democracy refers to how they get to be the government.

4 years ago

I came out late this afternoon and Linda took my puter away but she is asleep .... I understand what you are saying Jim - u are very clear and I actually feel the same way here in Canda .... we give too much away when we need it more here and Jeffery - Jim is not right or left of anything - he speaks his peace as you and I do and does it well .... Eli, this had turned into a great thread ....

 

Hard to see so forgive mistkesa but I was in la la land and only dang channel for news was MSNBD  ..... Mathews guy was talking aoubt the fact that Israel does not like Obama because he is black! Through the fog I started laughing and that hyrt some but was the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I have lots of Jewish friends and not one of them are prejudice.... Obama has been bowing and kissing to all in the middle east and giving Israel and Britian now I hear the finger. So much for where his loyalties lie .... Mine lie with Israel .... never again a repeat of what happened in WW 2 and the powers that be knew about it and did nothing to stop it until it was too late. NEVER AGAIN ....

 

So who do they sent to talk or whatever? None other than Joker Joe! Big help there - hope he has a role of duct tape with him because when he start running at the mouth all of us will be in trouble. Saw a kid who is the son of one of the Hamas leaders on a show today. He is living in America now and is a Christian .... he has turned his back on the Muslim faith because of all the evil that has entered into it .... Took a lot of guts. soon as I can see straight I am going to buy his book and read it.

 

Do u guys know most Americans do not know America is a Republic? and if they do do not know the difference between that and a democracy .... I will follow everything up tomorrow but wanted Jim to know I hear you. Hiya Jeffery -welcome back!

 

Eli! I just cannot say enough about how special I think you are. There is a lot you can and will teach us. Thank you for being part of this group ....

4 years ago

OMG!!! 24 hrs I didn't check my mail and now I have dozens of posts to answer. . 1- Lynn. Though the Greeks did very well in phylosophy they did not (in my opinion) do well in their actions. Equality is very much a part of democracy. Many of the parables used to teach from the Bible give these values. It is this that put the idea's into action. With constantine it became more of a political tool.

Ok now to the subject of the Jewish lobby. What is so offencive about a jewish lobby? We sit here on care2 which is host to lobbies of multiple subjects. Why is the the Jewish lobby such an intimidation. Each group has it's lobby of interests, be it, child protection, abortion, black rights, gay rights, green peace, and various christian and muslim lobbies. Whty single out one lobbie as being more offencive than any other? A lobby being a group of people pushing their perspective intrests on any given subject. This is what democracy is about. The subject is irrelevant. Libralism, conservatism, or communism are equally lobbies or a perspective representing a group of society. The fact that some representatives may whore themselves out to different lobbies to attain votes is a lack of morals but it is not the lobby that is at fault, but the system. If representatives in congress simpley had values, there would be no reason to have lobbies on any given groups. Nor the reason to sign petitions on care2 to push these lobbies. Fustrating as it may be, only a strong lobby will succeed in getting results. This is why we all sign the many petitions here on care2. To help foward the many intrests and hopfully influence our leaders into making our society a better and more caring place. The Jewish lobby are no less american taxpayers than any other. They also have the same rights as any other lobby to their perspective. Their Jewishness does not deny them rights to a perspective.

4 years ago

Welcome back Cam!  I know how you feel about wanting to get back online.  I take my laptop to the hospital with me if I have to go.  If they don't have internet capability, I use dial up! I'll tie up that phone for hours!  hahaha  Rest up buddy.

 

Hi Eli! When I talk about lobbyists, I don't mean people here on Care2, I mean the lobbyists for hire in Washington.  My small town had to hire a lobbyists because it was the only way to get our point across to congress.  Lobbyists aren't cheap!!  The problem in DC is the rich lobbyists buy the votes they need through direct cash to an election fund or gifts, like the congressman in all the news today with his free trips, etc.  There's a big difference to making a point here on Care2 and the Lobbyists in DC.

 

Northern, you are correct that a lot of Americans don't know the difference between democracy and republic and which one we are.  That's because our education system is run by the gov't and THEY determine what will be taught or not in most public schools.  Many Americans have say back thinking the gov't is doing its job.  It's only been recently (the last few years) that they have started waking up and finding out all this bad stuff happening in all aspects of life.  Complaining about the past does nothing.  Learning from it and actually doing something about it means everything. 

 

I think that's where we are now.  It's a new revolution in America and those who believe in the founding fathers, the constitution and what it was that built America so strong, are now standing up and making sure their voices are heard. 

 

I heard an idea on what this country needs to do to go back to the original intent.  He said the next president will have to be an unpopular person.  He will have to cut the budget by 50%.  He will have to create a flat tax of 11 to 13% so that everyone is paying their fair share.  We all have to take the hit for a couple of years to get our economy and our dollar strong again.  The more I think about it, the more I'm in agreement. 

 

 

4 years ago

Yep but politicians are just that - politicians and I doubt any of them would have the guts to do what has to be done. I no they would not here in Canada and our governemtn is one of our biggest employers. Was I dreaming or did Beck have bread bags on his feet yesterday? I used to go to school with those when it rained.

 

Eli, I will take a few days to read everything from top to bottom and when it registers I will have many things I would like to talk to you about I am sure. I am so glad u are here .....

4 years ago

Eli:  "The fact that some representatives may whore themselves out to different lobbies to attain votes is a lack of morals but it is not the lobby that is at fault, but the system. If representatives in congress simpley had values,"  Correct, it's the system that I oppose.  But you go on to say:  "only a strong lobby will succeed in getting results.".....What results?  To get what you want.  Others have different beliefs, but may not have the political power or the cash to hire a lobby. 


"A lobby being a group of people pushing their perspective intrests on any given subject. This is what democracy is about. I do not agree:  You mistake the institution of government for Democracy itself.  Lobbies are a tool  used to gain ADVANTAGE over those who do not have the money/power to hire them,  They are in fact anti Democratic.  But in the case of support/funding all the people of the USA pay the costs for the powerful few that can afford to game the system for their benefit.

 

"The subject is irrelevant. Libralism, conservatism, or communism are equally lobbies or a perspective representing a group of society"?.  Those are political philosophies  not lobbies.  Perhaps you misunderstand.  My reference to "lobbies" are those in DC that hire people use coercive tactics and fund campaigns. 

 

"What is so offencive about a jewish lobby?" I am opposed to all lobby's. except when it is used for information alone.  They distort the process.....Again you say:  "Jewish lobby such an intimidation"?,   Jewish?????  Nowhere did I say"; "Jewish lobby" nor did I use the term Jewish.  In reference  I said "your government", and Israel  in my previous comment. 

 

"Fustrating as it may be, only a strong lobby will succeed in getting results." And there is the problem.  The "results" are money and  that burdens Americans with debt.   We borrow that money from foreign nations.  We are putting  our children into debt for what a small number of people have hired lobbies to get for them.  

 

The problem is that everyone thinks their cause/program/goal is just or can be justified.  They argue that their cause/program/goal. should be funded or advantaged.  What you think is just, they might think is a travesty and vice versa.  The only way out of this mess is to limit what Government can spend on.  That's elaborated in the Constitution.  All other government spending needs to stop.  No exceptions.  Then lobbies become moot points.

4 years ago

Jim, from your post, followed by my comments ...

"A lobby being a group of people pushing their perspective intrests on any given subject. This is what democracy is about."  I do not agree:  You mistake the institution of government for Democracy itself.  Lobbies are a tool  used to gain ADVANTAGE over those who do not have the money/power to hire them,  They are in fact anti Democratic.  But in the case of support/funding all the people of the USA pay the costs for the powerful few that can afford to game the system for their benefit.  .....

The problem is that everyone thinks their cause/program/goal is just or can be justified.  They argue that their cause/program/goal. should be funded or advantaged.  What you think is just, they might think is a travesty and vice versa.  The only way out of this mess is to limit what Government can spend on.  That's elaborated in the Constitution.  All other government spending needs to stop.  No exceptions.  Then lobbies become moot points.

AMEN BROTHER!!  Very well said Jim!

 

You cannot currently send a star to Jim because you have done so within the last week.

Green Star Send a Green Star to Jim Steve Sending a Green Star is a simple way to say "Thank you"



This post was modified from its original form on 09 Mar, 15:59
4 years ago

Jeffery, I started saying what I believed here it would be like talking Japanese to a deaf mute................achieve nothing!

 

It's preposterous that you would pretend to be wiser than those who disagree with you, yet you are unable to defend your views.

 

By the way, you said you would prefer a dictatorship such as Cuba. Why do you not live there? They'll take just about anybody.

4 years ago

Lobbies are merely a form of free political speech. We do live in a democracy, which should be apparent to anybody who has noticed our regularly scheduled elections. All Americans have the right to free political speech, which means the right to advocate for their views and interests. All Americans have the right to free association. We do not forfeit our right to free speech when we exercise our right to associate.

 

I find it sadly ironic that some who claim to be such fervent supporters of the Constitution attempt to curtail rights in the same breath.



This post was modified from its original form on 10 Mar, 12:05
4 years ago

Sad that those who talk about the Constitution seem to have never read it. Perhaps the reading of the Federalist Papers would help?   Or not.  

 

Regularly scheduled elections?  THAT makes a democracy?????  Right. Appearance over substance.   Iran have "regularly scheduled elections."   the Soviet Union had "regularly scheduled elections."    PAID lobby's that "contribute" (bribe) legislators? That facilitates Democracy?

 

Curtail rights?  Absurd.  Those who disagree do not seek to curtail "rights".  Or free speech. But those "rights" do not include the "right" to violate the US constitution.   Or exceed the power of government that the Constitution gave Congress, the President or the Supreme Court. That is the path toward totalitarianism.  But I suppose those who that think convincing 51% of the population gives a "right" to do anything it pleases.

 

Amazing that anyone who has a different opinion is said to be unable to defend their ideas.

 

 

4 years ago

You haven't even come close to showing any violation of the Constitution. Nor anything remotely like a coherent argument.

 

And yes, the elections make us a democracy. By the way, Republic and Democracy are not mutually exclusive terms. Republic goes to the relationship between states and the federal governemnt. Democracy goes to the representative nature of our government. There can be democratic Republics. We live in one.

4 years ago

Finally you got something right ;  As I said a "Constitutional Republic with some Democratic empowerment of the people" .  Glad you agree.   Perhaps there is hope for you.

 

As far as the Constitution: read it and the Federalist Papers and we'll talk.  Until then, this is futile.  You plainly do not understand the argument.

4 years ago

What makes you think I haven't? You still haven't explained how the right to free association negates the right to free speech. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the Constitution.

 

And thank you for conceding we are a Democracy.

4 years ago

The problem with Lobbiest today is that they have become nothing more than vote buyers Jeffrey. It is no longer about merely àdvertising opinions but more like `you scratch my back and I will scratch yours!`Take Gore for example .... worth next to nothing when he `left`politics and then started carrying the global warming banner. He is a gazillionaire now and for what .... whthell is wrong with this computerÉ dang thing .... can`t be the operator .... must be the drugs ....

Anyway I think lobbiest should be outlawed in all governments. The only voices our elected reps should be listening to when it comes to matters of government are OURS - and if they don`t wanna do what the majority of us tells them to do them they are OUTTA there ..... tired of all the corruption .... it is crap .... all of it ....

 

Was interested to see the uproar over corporate donations to elections and at first I was taken in by the group against it. But I have thought about this now .... If Hollywood can buy the White House then why can`t corporations donate to elections. Do they really think we are so dumb that we believe all that money Owebama brought in came from little people like usÉ wtf ..... Yes, I think they are and he brought in a truckload .... hard to run a campaign against that kind of imbalance. We have good election laws here and that kind of thing would never be allowed in Canada. It should not be allowed in America either but since it is .... what`s good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

BTW, America is a Republic - not a democracy ....

4 years ago

IMO the USA and UK are struggling with the notion that they have a democracy, which, technically they have. But in reality they have no such thing because both have a "first past the post" system which means they have drifted into having just the two parties which, in UK at least, are pretty much the same when they actually get into power!! Thus the people go through the charade of elections and never actually achieve the government they want, a government that is representative of the people. In most other European countries they have proportional representation which not  only is a truer version of democracy but also gives a more acurate representation of the people's wishes and a more democratic form of government because the government is not based on the limited two party structure.. It ain't perfect, but it is better. 

4 years ago

Northern, how would you justify outlawing political speech?

 

There is an antidote to vote-buying, which is overestimated anyway. That antidote is the voters of a district or state. If the representative does not vote in a way that represents his constutuents' interests, he's voted out. Corporations can't help much with that, since only individuals get votes. In the end, we decide, not special interests.

 

On the other hand, left-leaning special interests, such as teachers unions, will gravitate to Democrats who are predisposed to their views, and support them. Right-leaning special interests will support Republicans for the most part. So what? That isn't really vote buying, but supporting those who will further their interests. Money is a form of support. That's how democracy works.

 

Anyway, we have a Constitution in the US that guarantees this right of free speech and right to free association, and you can't simply outlaw it.

4 years ago

Lynn, the claim that first past post is not really a form of democracy is absurd. Those on the fringe always bring this up because it tends to exclude fringe groups from any meaningful role, but it is a form of democracy. The majority gets its way.

 

In fact, first past post has been a crucial reason that the US has succeeded beyond any other nation -  we filter out the loons at the extreme.

 

The truth is exactly opposite of your claim. Most of us do get the government we want - most of us voted for it. It is the fringe minorities that are left out. That's a profoundly good thing.



This post was modified from its original form on 10 Mar, 15:01
4 years ago

America is not a democracy, it is a republic. 

 

"In the end, we decide"  No we don't.  That's why we have so many stupid laws on the books and so much gov't in our pockets.  In the end, we elect the people who go to DC.  But it's those people who decide what they wage will be, what benefits they will recieve and what their retirement will be.  We don't have a thing to say about that, and yet we should.

 

Currently we are having healthcare shoved down our throat.  We didn't decide that.  We didn't' vote on whether we wanted a healthcare system like Canada or the UK.  We should have been able to do so, but we weren't.  The collective we has made a lot of noise about it and forced more dicussion, but it WE do not decide what it will contain or how it will work.  In fact, we don't even have the "right" to stop them from doing something so obviously against the Constitution.  No where in the Constitution is the gov't supposed to take care of the people!  That's why this country was created, to get away from that! 

 

In the end we SHOULD be the ones who decide, but we're not.  That's one of the major things that needs to be fixed.  We should be voting on things like gov't run healthcare just as we should have been able to vote on Social Security and other gov't run programs that exceed the power given to Congress and the President by the Constitution.  I don't mean a vote in the house or senate, I mean a ballot box vote on whether we approve of Obama's plan or not.

 

4 years ago

Jeffery, I totally disagree with you...............but there we go, best thing is to agree to disagree!

 

Michael, being a Republic and a Democracy are not mutually exclusive! America is a Democratic Republic.........that is what it is!

4 years ago

Michael, you have the rage of a minority who doesn't like what the majority has decided.

 

Obama's health care plan is stalled precisely because of the oppositon of the American people. And in November the Democrats will be in the minority in Congress precisely because they attempted to ignore the will of the people.

 

Anyway, stupid laws are not necessarily the result of an unrepresentative government. Sometimes stupid laws are the will of the majority.

4 years ago

I only quoted  what I stated in a  much earlier comment Jeffery.  My statement is plain.

 

I am not your enemy.  We need people who care enough about out country to fix things.  And you do care.  But, things really need to be fixed.  Americans need to reject excessive government.  Not to continue to support those that game a system that had distorted the concepts of the American government.  To do that people need to understand.

 

 "Hence it is that such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths. Theoretic politicians, who have patronized this species of government, have erroneously supposed that by reducing mankind to a perfect equality in their political rights, they would, at the same time, be perfectly equalized and assimilated in their possessions, their opinions, and their passions."....  Alexander Hamilton paper X (10) the Federalist Papers;

 

I provided the link to the Constitution.  Where is the word "Democracy" in the Constitution?   ......   

 

 

4 years ago

Northern N.....  Even better than outlawing  Lobbies would be to reduce the government to it's intended and limited purposes.  If there was not so much profit for them in DC, they would go away or starve.  Now that's a pleasant thought!  Starving lobbyists!

4 years ago

This thread seems to have got totally off the original point, which was about Israel!  We seem to have hijacked Eli's very important and relevant thread. Soooooo...........hello Eli! I personally would like to hear more from you!

4 years ago

Northern N.....  Even better than outlawing  Lobbies would be to reduce the government to it's intended and limited purposes.

 

There's a statement on which we can completely agree.

4 years ago

Well, yep! I agree with you and Northern on that one Jeffrey!!! Anyway...........back to Israel.......................................

American-Israel
4 years ago

Well seeing as so many things about Israel are based on American politics (like lobbies) it is easy to see how one can start discussing Israel and end up discussing America. We also have many lobbies here of which I find irritating. Personally I'd like to see Israeli political groups be more considerate of all Israeli's citizens. Israeli politics is in many ways simular to village politics. When the left wing came into power, the right is almost outlawed. Such as Ehud Barak calling the right a cancer from within. Simple things like basic art suplies to schools that were in anyway connected to the right, suddenly stopped wihtin a week of the left being in power.  These are the kind of things I very much disslike about Israeli politics. Or such parties as Shas making sure only those with religious afiliation to their party get truely free education and hot meals and free books. Those in the non religious schools must pay the full amounts and nothing is for free. Though there is democracy in Israel, equality has much to be desired. When religious and non religious schools get equal funding, benifits, and equal education, then it will be equality. Such dramatic policy changes that are felt so quickly give a strong feeling of instability.

4 years ago

I am very surprised by your last post Eli...........I had thought Israel to be a very egalitarian state. Shows how wrong you can be. So, do people actually have to pay to send their children to non religious schools, or just pay for the extras? 

Violence against Jews
4 years ago

The attempts of some to use violence to force Jews into silence is to use terror tactics and should be seen and treated as such.

Assault At UC Berkeley:  Jessica Felber Was Assaulted by

Husam Zakharia of Students for Justice in Palestine
http://www.israelna tionalnews. com/News/ News.aspx/ 136407

Husam Zakharia, leader of the Students for Justice in Palestine, assaulted Jessica Felber of the pro-Israel Tikvah group
University of California at Berkeley was again the site of a clash involving pro-Israel and anti-Israel activists last Friday when Husam Zakharia, leader of the Students for Justice in Palestine, assaulted Jessica Felber of the pro-Israel Tikvah group with a shopping cart.

The incident occurred during competing events from the SJP-run “Israel Apartheid Week” and “Israel Peace and Diversity Week” organized by Tikvah. Felber was holding a sign that read “Israel Wants Peace” when Zakharia intentionally slammed her from behind with a shopping cart filled with toys donated for the welfare of Arab children in the Hamas-controlled Gaza region.
Felber told Israel National News that she responded to the incident by immediately placing her attacker under citizens’ arrest. Police arrested him later that day and Felber expressed hope that the District Attorney will see the case through and file charges against Zakharia.

students have been terrorizing us for three years with intimidation, accusations and threats
4 years ago

Felber said that Friday’s incident was not the first time Zakharia used violence against pro-Israel advocates. According to her, physical intimidation has frequently been employed as a tool by SJP to silence students opposing their anti-Zionist activities on campus. “SJP students have been terrorizing us for three years with intimidation, accusations and threats. This incident is simply the culmination of it all and we are not going to tolerate it anymore.”

SJP’s tactics backfired on at least one occasion when, in November 2008, the group attempted to disrupt a concert organized by the Zionist Freedom Alliance during “Israel Liberation Week” on the UC Berkeley campus. After striking a ZFA activist in the head, Zakharia found himself beaten to the ground. Following the incident, Zakharia and two fellow SJP members, along with two Zionist activists, were cited for battery but no charges were officially filed.

The UC Berkeley Hillel and leaders of the California Bay Area Jewish community condemned the violence at the time but made no moral distinction between SJP and ZFA. This time around, however, Felber said Hillel and many other Jewish organizations have been very supportive and she expressed hope that SJP will no longer be able to intimidate her or other students on campus.

4 years ago

All education costs. BUT religious education costs less and most recieve reductions in costs which are not available to non religious schools. One of my daughters went to a religious school. I payed nothing and she recieved many benifits. Free books, free extra learning and activities, free transport. My youngest goes to a non religious school. There are absolutely no benifits of help for weaker students or any subsidies. To me this is very wrong.

Jerusalem expansion spurred by Biden's clampdown on Israeli action on Iran
4 years ago

It is an absolute Hutzpa (audacity) that the American government (Obama) thinks he can decide Israeli policies and our security issues. He should keep his eye on American issues. Obama is NOT the Israeli president and has no right to order Israel.

 

http://www.debka.com/article/8638/

According to debkafile's sources, the sweetness and light conveyed by public statements was hardly present in the US vice president's private talks with Israeli leaders. Netanyahu may well have approved the Jerusalem announcement as an indirect comeback for the way the American visitor laid down the law on a number of issues of Israeli concern, chiefly the matter of Iran's rapid progress toward a nuclear weapon. 
The peremptory note was first noted when Biden called on president Shimon Peres, his first meeting with an Israel leader. He then explicitly warned Israel against venturing to attack Iran without prior American permission.

Even the oft-repeated American commitment to Israel's security was delivered with a notable reservation: I can promise the people of Israel that we will confront every security challenge that we will face, said Biden. This statement ruled out unilateral Israel operations in its defense. Forget unilateral, he was saying: From now "we" make the decisions about the levels of "security challenge" facing Israel and how to "confront it." And there was no false modestly about who the senior decision-maker was to be in this "alliance."

4 years ago

Eli,  Thanks for all the information and honesty about conflicts and problems that Israel has.  Some of the issues are natural and even healthy for a society or nation to have.  Of course, some conflicts between citizens are not healthy. 

 

The question of the role/function of Government is a legitimate one.  Each nation has a right to decide for themselves what that function is.  I abhor intimidation and violence as a method of deciding what that country's government is empowered to do.  I also believe that sovereignty should remain with the people, not with the State.

 

What you are seeing from the current administration is an example of American hubris.  It comes as no surprise.  Hidden in the charm of those in power in Washington is a arrogance which transcends anything I have seen in my lifetime.  This is another argument in defending the Constitutional limits on our government. 

 

There is a totalitarian mindset that is taking place in America.  From people on both the Left and the Right.  Opposing that mindset there has arisen those  who understand that Liberty is the legacy of Americans.....  Many here believe that there can be exceptions made to some of those freedoms.  Those on the other side believe that other different freedoms should be abridged.  I disagree with both "sides" in this.

 

I wish the people of Israel well in their own struggle.

4 years ago

Eli, I saw this article and thought you might be interested to see it ...

 

Part 1

 

An open diplomatic row during the visit of Vice President Joe Biden has shined a spotlight on the U.S. failure to rein in Israeli settlement ambitions and deepened Palestinian suspicions that the United States is too weak to broker a deal.

 

 

Biden's handshakes and embraces gave way to one of the strongest rebukes of Israel by a senior U.S. official in years after Israel's announcement during his visit that it plans to build 1,600 homes in disputed east Jerusalem. Israel apologized for the poor timing but is sticking to its plan to build the homes, enlarging one of the settlements that have impeded negotiations with Palestinians.

 

The vice president on Wednesday assured Palestinians the U.S. is squarely behind their bid for statehood and urged the sides to refrain from actions "that inflame tensions or prejudice the outcome of talks."

 

"It's incumbent on both parties to build an atmosphere of support for negotiations, and not to complicate them," Biden said, standing alongside Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.

 

Israel's announcement was widely seen as a slap in the face to its all-important U.S. ally. It stirred significant anger among U.S. officials and widespread skepticism about whether the Obama administration would have the courage or the backing to take Israel to task as the U.S. relaunches long-stalled peace negotiations. The future of those talks was called into question late Wednesday when the Arab League recommended withdrawing support for them.

 

"This is a global message of American weakness and Israeli arrogance," said Palestinian lawmaker Hanan Ashrawi.

 

The vice president's visit had been largely aimed at repairing U.S.-Israeli ties strained over the very same issue now overshadowing Biden's trip: Jewish settlements. Palestinians and the U.S. consider settlements built on lands claimed by the Palestinians to be obstacles to peace.

 

Biden condemned the Israeli announcement and pointedly arrived 90 minutes late to a dinner with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

 

Israel's oblique response to the row _ that Netanyahu was blindsided by the announcement, that no one meant to offend Biden, that in the future the prime minister would make sure sensitive announcements are routed through him _ did not appear likely to put the matter to rest.

 

The words of Interior Minister Eli Yishai, whose office ordered the new homes _ "I am very sorry for the embarrassment ... Next time we need to take timing into account" _ only reinforced the feeling that there would in fact be a "next time."

 

It appears President Barack Obama now has the choice of absorbing the blow or engaging in a politically unpalatable battle with the Israeli leadership, which past U.S. presidents have largely avoided. Obama may be too invested in key domestic problems, the Iran nuclear issue and two wars to walk into that political minefield.

 

The Palestinians largely lost faith in the U.S. as a broker after Obama tried _ and failed _ to get the hawkish Netanyahu government to stop building on lands Palestinians claim for a future state. Netanyahu eventually agreed to a construction slowdown rather than a freeze, but that did little to mollify Palestinians.

 

Abbas' aides have said privately that if Obama can't get Israel to play by the rules on settlements, he won't be able to push on far more sensitive issues, such as a partition of Jerusalem.

 

After nearly two decades of stop-and-go negotiations with few tangible results, strong U.S. intervention is seen as key to solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

 

Israel's latest building plans came just as the Palestinians had reluctantly agreed to resume indirect, U.S.-brokered talks in the coming days _ after a 14-month deadlock.

Capping a day of meetings with Palestinian leaders, Biden declared Wednesday that Washington is committed to brokering a final peace deal.

 

"The United States pledges to play an active as well as a sustainable role in these talks," Biden said. He stressed the Palestinians deserve an independent state that is "viable and contiguous," a clear message to Israel that the U.S. expects a broad withdrawal from the West Bank as part of a settlement. Palestinians fear Jewish settlement enclaves would render a future state untenable by breaking it up into pieces.

 

Abbas, the Palestinians' leader, said Wednesday that new Israeli building, especially in Jerusalem, threatened the negotiations before they got off the ground.

 

"We call on Israel to cancel these decisions," Abbas said. "I call on the Israeli government not to lose a chance to make peace. I call on them to halt settlement building and to stop imposing facts on the ground" _ a reference to the fear that settlement expansion will predetermine Israel's future borders.

 

The fate of Jewish settlements is one of the most contentious issues in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Nearly 300,000 settlers live in the West Bank, in addition to 180,000 Israelis living in Jewish neighborhoods built in east Jerusalem. The Palestinians want both areas _ captured by Israel in the 1967 Mideast war _ along with the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip to become their future state.

 

Netanyahu's settlement slowdown pointedly excluded east Jerusalem, which Israel annexed after 1967 and considers part of its capital. Netanyahu has said he will never share control of the holy city.

 

Continues ....

4 years ago

Continued .... Part 2

 

The plan to build 1,600 new homes in the east Jerusalem neighborhood of Ramat Shlomo could increase that neighborhood's population of 20,000 by more than half.

 

Ministry spokeswoman Efrat Orbach said the ministry routinely issues announcements of planning decisions immediately after they are taken. This is not the first time that such announcements have dovetailed with visits by top U.S. officials. Plans for hundreds of settlement apartments were announced during the peace mission of former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

 

Israel could end up paying for this slap by seeing amplified U.S. pressure to make concessions.

 

Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad said the Palestinians appreciated "the strong statement of condemnation" by the U.S. administration. But it was unclear if Biden's condemnation could restore U.S. credibility among Palestinians.

 

That condemnation appeared likely to exacerbate a widespread feeling in Israel that Obama is less friendly to the Jewish state than his predecessors. Still, Israeli leaders have traditionally been reluctant to openly spar with the United States, and Netanyahu could pay a domestic price.

 

Israel's opposition Kadima Party said it is planning a no-confidence vote in the prime minister in parliament for "destroying" the Biden visit.

 

The new construction plan also drew a sharp rebuke from Egypt, Israel's closest ally in the Arab world, and from U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon.

 

Late Wednesday, the 22-nation Arab League recommended withdrawing support for indirect talks between Palestinians and Israelis. Abbas had agreed to resume indirect negotiations with Israel due to the backing from Arab countries.

 

The league's Arab peace initiative committee called for a meeting of Arab foreign ministers, saying Israel's announcement showed it was not serious about negotiating. If the Israeli settlement moves are not halted immediately, the committee said, the talks would have "no meaning."

 

The European Union also urged Israel to reverse its decision "and to refrain from unilateral decisions and actions that may jeopardize" negotiations. British Foreign Secretary David Miliband called it a "bad decision at the wrong time." Germany said the plan was "not acceptable" given the two sides' recent agreement to renew talks.

 

From the windows of his limousine Wednesday, Biden was able to see many of the region's points of contention _ including several enormous east Jerusalem settlements and the towering gray cement slabs of Israel's West Bank separation barrier.

 

In Bethlehem, the city of Jesus' birth, the vice president toured a Palestinian quarry and stopped at a local souvenir shop where he bought a small golden cross.

 

"How many such visits have we already had?" asked Rizek Qassis, a Palestinian butcher from the nearby town of Beit Jalla, as he watched the scene. "They come, shake hands, go home, and we remain behind, like always."

4 years ago

I am going to close this thread and start another one as it is getting so long. I am still reading it and am amazed at what I did not know. I will copy your last statement and move it to the top of the new thread Jim.

 

Eli, I have so many questions I am making notes but I am still on meds and they look like a drunk wrote them. Will be back to all of this ....

 

You folks here are the best! What a great conversation!

This topic is closed