There is some hope for better
Which suggests that it's about time the other 80% started to get their act together.
Good point Andrew
Thanks Homer, that is interesting news. Being childfree is the most environmentally friendly choice.
well, education is a key!
Just how much education does one have to have, Elena, to understand that egg+sperm = baby?
As far as I remember, we learned this "formula" at the end of 6th grade, at Zoology classes, when we studied the topic "reproduction in mammals". Later, at grade 8th we learn about humans.
I think it's not about knowing the formula only; maybe it's time to learn at school about how to prevent egg from crushing into sperm
And "abstinence only" program is not effective.
The mentioned above article says that "child is a miracle of life" and "life is not complete without child" . Our common sense should beat the stupidity! I'd be glad to see your comments there. Thanks in advance!
Thanks for this, Elena. Read and commented.
It's good to have some positive news here. Let's hope the decline continues.
This post was modified from its original form on 19 Nov, 13:47
From The Guardian newspaper 16.02.2013. There is a regular column entitled 'What I'm Really Thinking'. On this day there was a column by 'The Child-Free Friend'.
We've been close friends for a long time and you know that I have chosen to remain child free not because I despise children; they just hold no interest for me. I don't feel there is a place for them in my life, something we've talked about before.
I wouldn't want to hurt you by explaining that my feelings apply to your child as well. I don't dislike your daughter – like most well-behaved children, she can be charming. But to me she is a stranger whose language I cannot speak.
I care about you and your life, and I'm delighted you're so happy being a mum, but there's something I am never allowed to say: I find your child tedious. It's not personal; that's how I feel about children in general.
I am at a loss for a response when you tell me I'm lucky to have time to go to the gym, to be able to take spontaneous weekends away, to have two spare bedrooms. I want to remind you that you gave all that up for parenthood and only two minutes ago you told me that you've never been happier. I'm not lucky; we both had choices, we just want different things from life.
The hardest thing about it, though, is the subtext – what I know you're really thinking but will never say. I heard it last week when, as I showed you the gym in my new house, you looked around and said, "Oh well, you can turn it into a playroom if you change your mind." You think my life choice is less sincere, less enduring, less fulfilling than yours – and that's what I really resent.
"... she is a stranger whose language I cannot speak".- exactly!
My thoughts! Also- she operates with the concepts and terms that I am not familiar with, she uses logic that I can't get (or maybe, there is no logic in her thoughts and actions) and she is talking about persons that I have no idea about because I'm not watching programs about Barbie and her other imaginary friends.... Moreover- I have no desire to look at this world through her mind...
Hi Elena, Robert, Andrew,
I'm baaack! Jeeze been gone a long time from here, couldn't log in as I forgot my password and the recovery password kept going to my old password recovery account at firstname.lastname@example.org which I couldn't access for the same reason. Doofus, old. Oh well had a friend who stayed at our place because we're registered at "Warmshowers.org" where we host visiting cycle tourists (Randenouers in the UK) who was a computer geek. Anyway back to the topic:
I have a friend here that wanted us to go see a live concert by Pierre Bensusan in Charlotte. He wanted to bring his step daughter, a 14 year old. We like her, she a great kid, BUT SHE'S A KID. No amount of explaining was going to help. They live in a different universe, it's not really a bad universe it's just not OUR universe. We don't enjoy having to explain everything we're talking about to a kid. If we're going to go out to a concert we might enjoy having drinks or appetizers on the way back and don't want to be saddled with their offspring. I wish they would have the slightest inkling about that intrusion, but, sadly, they don't. Glad to see everyone, always enjoy your takes on things. Ken
Welcome back Ken
Well, at 14 technically she's a teen, not a child anymore, and there may hardly be much explaining to do in most areas )
True that, but you'd be surprised. However, all that aside, it's just annoying to have a non-adult in the equation. Further it puts constraints on staying out late on a school night, something we shouldn't have to be saddled with when considering where to have a late night snack and a drink after a concert.
There's that, though it also applies for adults working early.
No chance of just spelling it out for them?
Welcome back, Ken! Nice to see you!
Of course Robert. You know me, you know I'm not the silent type and I tried as gently as possible to explain, however to those with children its inexplicable to them that anyone wouldn't enjoy their child's company. Don't get me wrong the girl is very nice, well behaved but she's a kid, there's a difference. When we visit their home we don't have a problem we just don't want to be forced into a social relationship with their child.
Elena, and everyone else, I'd say it's so nice to hear your voices but we only type (ha). Anyway good to be back, missed everyone.
Population growth in the USA is around 0.97% - almost exactly twice that of the UK and higher than that of many African and other developing countries. Many countries in Europe now have negative growth rates - and no-one is complaining about there being not enough people. What America needs is far more child-free people to get it's population growth rate down to acceptable, developed country standards!
Oh, they're complaining all right, you keep seeing projects and calls for "serious discussions" about boosting natality with increasing frequency.
Goes to the topic of republicans here in the US being rabidly against "Family Planning", "Abortion", without making it illegal (so as to circumvent constitutional law) they put so many obstacles in the way of Abortion clinics they have to close. They are now, in some states, making a fertilized egg a "person" under the law, making it illegal to have an abortion in the case of rape on the flimsy grounds that it's destroying evidence. It's insane but likely that there are huge corporate interests at work here. Having been in sales you usually get a bonus for making more sales this year than last year, well what happens when you've sold all the customers that are prospects for your market? Make new ones, of course. It really is incredible that the obvious point that ALL of our problems in the world today are directly related to overpopulation: Pollution, food, water, air, housing, automobiles, wars. All are caused by too many people. Right now 87% of all fish sold as Red Snapper are not Red Snapper, incredible. Here in NC the state has issued warnings not to eat ANY fresh water fish due to mercury contamination caused by coal fired power plants, and people still don't get it.
People, in the sense of the majority, never got it and never will. The only way is to use tactics that are similar to or (seeing that they'd require a change, and a very quick one at that) much worse than those currently used by those in power in order to enforce a way that makes sense in the long term and for the world as a whole instead of this short-term finance-centric one that's been in use since... Well, pretty much since the advent of civilization.
We have had a debate recently about gay marriage. One very right wing Conservative politician was against it partly because gay marriage does not facilitate procreation. Therein lies one of the problems - and it's one of the things the majority seem incapable of getting. Couples (i.e. heterosexual couples) get married and feel obligated (maybe by societal pressure; maybe by tradition; whatever) to immediately start producing children. One small step forward would be to convince people that procreation is not a compulsory adjunct to marriage; that one can be very happily married without children. The conservative right, be it in Europe or America, still pushes the 1950s notion of a happy family as being a smiling mum and dad and two children. We need to get past that. This is the 21st century. Our lawmakers really do need to get with the programme.
It takes highly developed reasoning to override instincts, and that's rare. Otherwise, there may be some people who, due to hormonal imbalances or non-functioning or missing gonads, lack those instincts, but the vast majority just notice the basic breeding instinct and then, if they use reason at all, they only do so in order to justify it.
And when you add the constant growth economic model on top of that, you get this... Not that either of the two wouldn't be enough on its own.
Signed petition previously. Thanks, Elena.
Another pro-fetus with birth defects vs life of woman case
It's good to see an intelligent, rational discussion of the topic in a serious and well-respected magazine.
http://www.ausbt.com.au/scoot-declares-child-free-zone-no-kids-under-12-allowed Some of you were looking for something like this
Also http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news%2Flocal&id=9207602 "no kids" store.
(I want editing of group posts...)
Thanks for these, Robert. One small step...
Someone that hardly even speaks my language (English and slang, lol) first asked to be my friend on Facebook, and because his site looked animal-friendly and animal-aware, I agreed. The next thing he does is start asking me my age, stats, children, etc. When I told him I have no children, he was astonished. "You don't like children.'? Then, rather than tell him what I was really thinking, I felt defensive yet gave reasons why I don't have kids. Why do some of us still feel like we have to justify "no kids wanted." ? I'm going to Facebook now to delete him and others who serve no purpose in my life. <Rant over> Thanks Robert, for the links. They gave me smiles!
Hmm, I tried posting a list of childfree pages I bumped into on Fb lately, but it won't post, may be caught by a spam filter due to the large number of links... Have it like this then: https://www.facebook.com/Cavalary/posts/10201843621754585
I think most of us go through that defensive stage at some point, Lynn. It's not the question itself, it's the way it's asked; it's always with an intonation that implies some kind of moral or ethical impropriety and one is drawn into defending oneself. I guess getting passed that stage is a kind of rite of passage for the child-free.
Thank you Robert, I'll go check out the link.
Yes, you're right Andrew. I am past the age of having kids anyway. While I was married, people kept asking when they could expect "the news." That was decades ago and I learned to just deal with it then. Now, people ask "who's going to care for you when you get where you can't?" Well, firstly, being 54, and having my 'husband' being 21 years younger than me is an advantage. And not that many kids these days take care of their parents anyway. I don't intend to get where I can't care for myself, but if it happens, it happens. None of us know the future...but at times it looks kind of bleak economically, environmentally, and other ways. I am glad I don't have children that have to go through an unstable world. - I guess it is a rite of passage of sorts Andrew, getting past that stage. Hasn't bothered me in ages until that person started questioning me.
Thanks for the links Robert, and yeah, judging from some of the stupid posts on those links they need a moderator. We have, I think, a whole thread on THE question and we all have our ways of handling the morons (breeders) depending on how courteously the question is posed. Personally I'm pretty fed up with the intrusive question no matter how courteously it's posed as it always comes off passive aggressive.
I like the straightforward approach "Why did you have four kids? Have you got something against Planet Earth?" "I'm really tired of the stupid people over breeding so some of us actually have to use our brains and stop breeding and bleeding the planets resources to death." "Oh, you haven't heard about this thing called 'Birth Control'?" or my personal favorite: "How many kids do you have? 4? you're an idiot." Of course 4 is better than 19! Harsh, yeah, I know but they asked for it.
You know, it is funny how people say those who don't have children are selfish and then turn around and ask who'll take care of them when they're old. Um, so you have a kid so you'll be able to trudge along possibly past your time without needing to hire help for it? What was that about selfishness again?
And heh @ being defensive about it. If anyone brings that up with me, or gives me a chance to, they're the ones needing to get on the defensive )
LOL, love your replies Ken. Some are quite original and funny (to me)!
Robert, I have bookmarked the links you left on FB, because I know that I will probably get into a debate with those people, and I need to "warm up."
Robert, you're the man. They're such hypocrites, we're the selfish ones? Indeed. Always love your take on this stuff. And thank you LynnSICK. Don't we all just get a little fed up with their intrusive and condescending questions? OBTW, love your Care2 page. Keep up your good works just lay back a bit and don't burn out again on us. Love having you with us here
I agree about defensive stage; I've passed it many-many years ago. If someone asks me "You don't like kids, do you"- I reply confidently "Yes, I don't! So what???" Sometimes I may add that "Do you like cockroaches? No? So what? You don't like cockroaches, I don't like kids, we can't like absolutely everything and everybody"
Nice observation about being selfish. Breeders want to breed and one of their main arguments- believes that kids will take care of them later in life. Wait, who is selfish now? To bring an offspring into this world and this offspring is alredy being burdened with obligation to take care of old parents? Interesting. Then, many breeders say that "It's nice to know that my gene pool will not end up wwith me and that 100...200...500 years later there will be people, carrying my genetical features, on this planet" What is this? Desire to leave a trait? And the same people are talking about child-free being selfish?
I wrote a nice thoughtful reply to everyone, and *poof*, it disappeared, as things sometimes do on Care2. Thank you everyone from welcoming me to the group, I enjoy being here. I will have more to say when it's not almost 4:30 a.m. lol! Have a happy weekend everyone!
P.S. Thanks Ken, I love being here with all of you
Lynn, this %#&!*% happens on care2. I tryed to reply to all of you too, but it kept on dissapearing. Experienced care2 members recommend to save reply prior to submitting.
"'It's nice to know that my gene pool will not end up wwith me and that 100...200...500 years later there will be people, carrying my genetical features, on this planet" What is this? Desire to leave a trait? And the same people are talking about child-free being selfish?"
I think they believe that their genes are gifts to the world, to humanity. Therefore, their children are gifts to the world and we, who choose not to have children, are "selfish" because we are not bestowing this gift of sorts. Whatever talents or presence their children display are also gifts for all of humanity to celebrate. We should just smile and consider ourselves blessed, right?
I'm apparently selfish because I'm denying my parents the experience of being grandparents. I'm also denying potential humans from getting to experience being alive (especially since our world is a great place to be these days).
I think, Carolyn, you have raised another source of intense pressure for many people: many people's parents want them to have children so that they can have the 'pleasure' of being grandparents. This seems to me to be the ultimate in selfishness. They don't care about their own children, now that they are grown up, and don't respect their adult decision not to have children. It is, apparently, their duty to have children because they want to be grandparents! I think many people find themselves under that kind of parental pressure and find themselves trapped between a rock and a hard place. Of course, as grandparents, they expect all the 'pleasure' with none of the pain.
Well, true about grandparenting. And I know many couples obsessed with their little "grandpoopers". Many years ago, in my twenties, I had a short affair with young man. I told him about my child-free agenda. He said that he was fine with that but his mother was very determined to be a grandmother, she wanted to have a granddaughter. Later, I got a chance to meet this woman. The first question she asked me- how many children do you want? I told her that there were no place for children in my life. Not now, not in the nearest future. She let me know quite clear that I had 2 choices- 1- change my mind and be the part of their family, and have a baby in the nearest 2 years OR 2- stay away from their son. Moreover, she let me know about how much she was determined to be a grandmother and how far would she go to make it dream to come true! She told me that one day I'd brake my neck in a horse-riding accident! Crazy bitch! Her son did not want to mess up with her. And what about me- well, I was not going to get married at age 22, because I considered early marriage as an idiocy... Later on this boy got married to a breeding pig from a remote village, and it was his mother who pick her for him. Year later she had a baby. Couple years ago I accidentaly run into former neighbour of this family. She told me story that made me laugh like crazy to the rest of the day. The thing is- at age 14 the girl befriended the wrong company. Then- drinking and drugs, then- stealing money and valuables from home. Parents spend a fortune on her treatment! Moreover, after rehab she tried to stay in touch with her bad friends and it was not easy to keep her at home. Every time someone try to keep her home- she crashed furniture, TV, etc. And-the most interesting- she beat her grandmother many times, and her grandmother had to be admitted to hospital with trauma, broken bones as a result of her action. This %#&!*% happened to a woman, who threatened me with arranging a horseback riding accident many years ago! Well- payback time! She wanted to have a grandpooper- she got her wish! Justice had been served, because it's not right to insult or hurt me. Sooner or later Karma will catch everybody who was not nice to me. I've seen results already)))
Thanks Elena. I agree.
What we need is a global paradigm shift. The world, including such countries (perhaps, especially such countries) as those in Africa and China and the far east, lives by the tenet 'never mind the quality, feel the width'; a philosophy of quantity rather than quality. For example we are forever trying to make things faster (such as the internet and train services) rather than making existing services better. We are in constant pursuit of a higher standard of living and to hell with our quality of life. However, children do just the opposite: they reduce our standard of living and, according to wannabe parents, enhance our quality of life. In fact, children create a lose-lose scenario: they reduce both our standard of living and our quality of life. Otherwise compos mentis individuals seem to fail to understand this simple precept.
Just goes to prove that every cloud has a silver lining!
No comment! After all, what can one say?
I wonder- are those people(Duggars and their fans) normal?! What's about their mental health?
I guess some people will stoop to anything to get their 15 minutes of fame.
Did my vasectomy many years ago. I think I posted my experience here some time ago. Elena can you find it and repost it here? Anyway, simple operation performed in the Dr.'s office. I hope your Dr. isn't an idiot. Anyway, almost no pain all the way around and Debbie was ecstatic with the results. Ah, life was so good when we were young, we were so hot back then. Now we're just so glad we never had kids. Likely, had we had them, they would now be living with us due to the economic downturns provided by the republican party. They'd likely have their own little brats running around our house and whom we would probably be restricted from disciplining. That would last about two months with us and we'd both be throwing them all out. Love, Peace, Shalom, Namaste, etc. Still go with W.C. Fields attitude towards children. When asked how he liked children Fields replied "It depends on how they're cooked."
Ken, you did shared your story and I like it. It was also about one idiot, accompanied to the Dr's office by his wife and their 3 poopers, and how you made fun of him! I'll try to find your story in archive and repost, I think it'd be nice to read it again and laugh!
Thanks Elana, I knew you'd remember and I haven't a clue where on our threads it's at. I'm amazed I can still remember that far back. Getting old isn't easy but in our case it's much easier as we NEVER have to entertain grandchildren, keep their little fingers off of everything in the house, chasing the cats, pulling the dogs ears, coming in the house screaming because one of our Roosters caught them to close to the hens.....etc. Peace, quite, calmness, ah, just some of the benefits of being "childless" (what a sad sounding term eh? Kind of sounds like "homeless", "jobless" doesn't it? It's why we prefer "childfree", which sounds great kind of like "JobFree", "CarFree".