Here's some of the characteristics of dyscalculia. You don't have to "have" all of them to qualify as dyscalculic. Most don't.

* Normal or accelerated language acquisition: verbal, reading, writing. Poetic ability. Good visual memory for the printed word. Good in the areas of science (until a level requiring higher math skills is reached), geometry (figures with logic not formulas), and creative arts.

* Difficulty with the abstract concepts of time and  direction. Inability to recall schedules, and sequences of past or future events. Unable to keep track of time. May be chronically late.

* Mistaken recollection of names. Poor name/face retrieval. Substitute names beginning with same letter.

* Inconsistent results in addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. Poor mental math ability. Poor with money and credit. Cannot do financial planning or budgeting. Checkbooks not balanced. Short term, not long term financial thinking. Fails to see big financial picture. May have fear of money and cash transactions. May be unable to mentally figure change due back, the amounts to pay for tips, taxes, etc

* When writing, reading and recalling  numbers, these common mistakes are made: number additions, substitutions, transpositions, omissions, and reversals.

* Inability to grasp and remember math concepts, rules, formulas, sequence (order of operations), and basic addition, subtraction, multiplication and division facts. Poor long term memory  (retention & retrieval) of concept mastery- may be able to perform math operations one day, but draw a blank the next! May be able to do book work but fails all tests and quizzes.

* May be unable to comprehend or "picture" mechanical processes. Lack "big picture/ whole picture" thinking. Poor ability to "visualize or picture" the location of the numbers on the face of a clock, the  geographical locations of states, countries, oceans, streets, etc.

* Poor memory for the "layout" of things.  Gets lost or disoriented easily. May have a poor sense of direction, loose things often, and seem absent minded. (Remember the absent minded professor?)

* May have difficulty grasping concepts of formal music education. Difficulty sight-reading music, learning fingering to play an instrument, etc.

* May have poor athletic coordination, difficulty keeping up with rapidly changing physical directions like in aerobic, dance, and exercise classes. Difficulty remembering dance step sequences, rules for playing sports.

* Difficulty keeping score during games, or difficulty remembering how to keep score in games, like bowling, etc. Often looses track of whose turn it is during games, like cards and board games. Limited strategic planning ability for games, like chess.

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When your child attempts maths problems does he frequently have difficulties with:

-numbers
-understanding the signs: +, -, / and x
-adding numbers
-subtracting numbers
-confusion with mathematical symbols (plus/minus etc)
-the words, plus, add, add-together
-reversing numbers 15 for 51 etc
-transposing numbers i.e., 364 - 634
-times tables
-mental arithmetic
-telling the time
-inability to follow directions

Students may have difficulties with mathematics, calculations and learning number facts such as times-tables. It is important that children start developing skills with sequencing, space organisation, deduction and strategy.

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"...Her inability to do math caused lowered self-esteem, withdrawal of effort, and avoidance behaviors to anything involving numbers. She generally lacks persistence in math. She has a limited ability to estimate, cannot retain math facts, and forgets the order of procedures.  She has trouble understanding mathematical concepts. She has a limited ability to solve problems in one particular way, but gets confused when the same problem is presented in several different ways. Her  visual/perceptual/spatial problems make it difficult to express answers to a problem with paper and pencil."

"He “has always struggled to learn math.” In math class, he experiences emotional blocks and is unable to think clearly. When his frustration level peaks, he often becomes belligerent and leaves class. In addition to high anxiety, he has difficulty mastering the basic counting sequence and math facts in the four basic operations. He also experiences difficulty in placing basic facts into long-term memory, and remembering and accessing information. He depends on the “counting all” procedure using his fingers, circles, pencil marks, or other visible reminders rather than more mature counting strategies."

from http://gseweb.harvard.edu/~ncsall/fob/2000/kenyon.html

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1 + 1 = 2

one + one = two

one pile of sand + one pile of sand = one pile of sand

When a child is taught that 1 + 1 = 2, it wants to know why.

Dyscalculic people often have problems understanding that one house is as many as one table - the example "3 apples + 2 bananas = ?" get's the answer "3 apples and 2 bananas", not "5 fruits".

Also linear algebra is difficult - most of the dyscalculics can't understand that the numbers grow on the right side of zero - and the "two minus = plus" rule is incomprehensible.

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Often it is not the big picture that causes troubles, but to see the parts of the big picture in managable chunks.
It can be difficult to clean a very messy room, because the dyscalculic cannot see where to begin, and how it is going to make the room any tidier to clean it one thing at a time.

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It's good to have people telling with their own words, what's wrong The "symptoms" are not the same for all, and it might help someone to know how this is shown in others.

You are right, following certain dance steps is pretty much impossible for people with dyscalculia.
There is nothing wrong with the sense for music, rhythm, nothing wrong with one's sense of movements, one's grace and love of dance and music - but the "organized" dancing...
And that's a pity too, because there is a great joy in following certain dance steps.

Shadow Bear manages the medieval dances, when I tell him what is coming next, but it's still a big stress factor.

I wonder what it would be like to dance square dance? There is also someone calling the turns... but on the other hand, the turns are called with the "step name" like "Wheel around" and "Half tag"...

Ket

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I mention not being able to learn the dancesteps of organized dances in my intro - not having it in the small intro message on the front page was an oversight, I  am sorry.

SB

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"Could dyscalculia (sp?) be why I cannot figure out how to figure out the mathematical aspects of photography? Like how to determine the lens speed and such? My dad or a teacher'd start talking about Fstops and stuff and my brains would glaze over. "

Yes, it could, I have no experience with photography, but I figure that if you are dyscalculic, like it really seems to you, right, then I would think it could affect any kind of mathematical aspects you encounter.

I knew there was something called Dyscalculia at age 39, but because of all the negatives I have gotten over the years, didn't really believe I had it, until Ket showed me the two paragraphs up above about having difficulties playing an instrument and/or read notes, and learn to dance structured dances.

But those are VERY physical PROOF which I cannot ascribe to laziness, common idiocy or disinterest - those are dyscalculia manifested in my body - I can FEEL the inability.

I do know how to read notes. I do play the piano - but I do not do those simultaneously.

Like you, Diana, I have no problem with free-dancing, I am acutely musical and have a very good sens of rythm, but cannot handle structured dancing or f.i playing drums.

Shadow Bear

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Christine, no need to be sorry, some of dyscalculics have problems with all of these things, and several other similar things, some have only problems with couple of these things. And as said, mainly it's finding the way of learning things, the way AROUND the difficulties.

Shadow Bear can play piano. He learns the pieces by heart. He can't play by the notes, so he learns to play the pieces by listening and copying. 
So I suppose there is something similar with you and dancing - you have found a way to learn that works, so you just dance, and don't think about step sequences and dance as a series of steps, but as a whole. Am I right?

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Marge, yes.
We just talked about martial arts, SB and I - it's like dancing. And Tai Chi is martial art Not very martial, I agree

Yes, "the white grainy stuff" is pretty typical - one of the "symptomps" is difficulty in remembering names, not only names of people, but names of things too. So, it's pretty nice to have such a great linguistic talent, so that you can easily replace words with descriptions or something that sounds similar.
I actually "have" this symptom

Also the problems of seeing trees from the forest is very typical. SB has this with sounds too - he cannot separate one sound from others, so he can't hear what people say in parties with a lot of people talking, glasses and china sounding and music playing...

Also the need to have very clean and tidy studying papers tell about this. I can write things all over a paper, fill in every little space there is with writing, and the writing doesn't have to do with anything else on the paper, I still have no problems in reading and comprehending and seeing clearly that these things doesn't connect, but SB has to have one thing on one piece of paper, and the text and numbers has to be in order and preferably marked clearly and visibly, so that it is easy to see what is on the paper. He loves marking pens.

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Diana, yes, the "mathematical aspects of photography" - speeds and lights and seconds and lenses... the relations of things.
One of the difficult things for dyscalculics are convertions. As said before, the metric system, or "one inch on the map is one mile in nature" and other things like this.

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Then there is the logic...
Logical thinking is easy, but understanding logic is not
- it might show as difficulties in reading and comprehending i.e. law texts and very "papery" language, "dry office talk" and other "purely logical and scientific" things.
It might be difficulties in following the "if this and that, then so" -logical thinking.
So sometimes people cannot follow your thoughts or the way you explain, because it is not "logical". People sometimes think you are confused and muddled.

Ket

P.S. Keep coming with personal experiences about these matters The amount of "normal, usual everyday matters" that are difficult to dyscalculics is enorm!
It is hard to comprehend how "such simple things" can be very difficult to anyone, sometimes virtually impossible. Just because of dyscalculia.

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http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/misunderstoodminds/mathdiffs.html

So fascinating

Among other things it gives examples on how some of the dyscalculics and people with math problems see the world, for us, who don't have difficulties And it really works

Ket

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A typical picture is that of a competent child that rather unexpectedly shows signs of serious difficulties of one or more of the sorts just described.

It is rather frequent that children with dyscalculia have had, or have, difficulties in learning to read a clock, its taking a long time for them to learn it.

For anyone who has learned to read a clock, doing so usually appears simple. Yet reading a clock calls for many different functions. The first to be done is to note the position of the hands. Thereafter one needs to figure out in one’s head what time it is. It cannot be read off the clock that it is twenty to two in the afternoon or that it is five after nine in the morning.

Reading the time off a clock with hands also requires that one have good visual perception, a good working memory and an adequate linguistic understanding of time concepts.

For many children with dyscalculia, reading the time off a clock with hands can be considerably more difficult than reading it off a digital clock, since the latter involves simply reading off the digits from left to right. Reading off 01.40 is easy enough. Certain difficulties remain, nevertheless, since there is no indication on the clock that this means twenty to two. That is a transformation one needs to do oneself.

Difficulties in reading clocks are not the only problems other than those of math itself with which children with dyscalculia are faced while growing up. Many of them are also poor in time perception. This can be reflected in their having difficulties in estimating the time which an hour or a day represents. This in turn can have a negative effect on their ability to plan and thus on how they get things done generally. Weaknesses in time perception can in part be a matter of having difficulties in grasping the sequence involved in a particular course of events

We do not have any inborn, innate feeling for time. Rather, this is developed and maintained through constant practice. The latter allows us to gradually learn how much we will succeed in doing in the course of an hour, for example. Learning about such time-related matters is never complete, however, as our basic knowledge of how to cycle, swim or wash dishes is. The continual practice we get enables our time-planning ability to develop and be maintained.  

Difficulties in time perception lead to serious problems when a child needs to plan his/her activities, such as studying or doing homework. Such problems are particularly marked when school-related tasks are to be done not for the following day but by some time say two weeks ahead. One should nevertheless emphasize that many pupils overestimate the time they have available for various tasks without this necessarily meaning that they suffer from dyscalculia. Children with dyscalculia are not only prone to problems of time perception, but also have difficulties in imagining in what order various tasks should be carried out.

Everyday problems for the child with dyscalculia manifest themselves, however, not only in the planning of homework and the like, but also in planning generally, even in such concrete situations as the child’s planning how to clean and cleaning his/her own room. Many children with dyscalculia have a need of a clear structure in their everyday life, although few of them, unfortunately, actively seek help in this respect.

http://www.dyscalculiainfo.org/

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Firestarter...It is and was for me. I found Geometry to be too easy and other math to be a nightmare.

My Fibromyalgia has made all this far worse. I'm stunned by the symptom overlap. Found an awesome site from and educational institution:

http://www.as.wvu.edu/~scidis/dyscalcula.html

Not only do the lay it all out in black and white (literally!), but they also offer practical real world solutions to help.

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Wow - I am so glad I found this group. Like others, I always knew there was something off, especially with math and following instructions. No one could understand that I could pick up the violin, listen and then play but couldn't learn to read the music.

I'm artistic as heck as long as I don't have to read the instructions. My family has realized for years that I can't grasp some things - can't do my own taxes but I can do loom beadwork that is amazing. I can't remember directions and have to keep them written down but chart off the scale with my reading ability in the 7th grade.

Thanks for forming the group, its good to know others go through some of this and I'm not just "math stupid."

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Difficulty learning to read time?...pheeeeeew. LOL..........

It's how I learned to tell time that might be funny(or stupid?)!I hated to look at the classroom clock,until one day,someone asked me what time it was.  The schoolbell rang,and I accidentally looked at the clock,knowing school finished at 3:00pm,I  learned how to read 3:00pm,by looking at where the short hand and long hand were.

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Thanks this is great, I am not alone! Lucky my spacial awareness gets me through!

A xo

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