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Groups > ENLIGHTENMENT > Discussions > Topic: Sex,marriage,freedom
Topic: Sex,marriage,freedom

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Eclipse F.	Sex,marriage,freedom July 29, 2005 2:10 PM "Whatever you find on your way, take it" famous zen quote, perfectly true. For some, sex is unwanted thing in spirituality even a sin. For others is just another thing which can be used for their further development. It is interesting of mention that yogi on higher levels attracts women like light attracts butterflies. But yogi must proceed on his way without reacting otherwise they both can be burned in flames of desire- women so as yogi. I am not sure is this can be applied on yogini on same way. Does women near enlightenment attracts mens so strongly? I doubt. Man are looking in women usually some other things, their physical beauty on the first place, personality, reliability, flirt, and women on higher levels leave impression of being "far away". Surprisingly there are situations when spirituality can even provoke sexual desire in others. But if spirituality is by definition something what transcendence material, how can they be connected on a way beneficial for your development? After desire for life, sexual desire is on second place by it`s strength. It keeps us trapped in this material prison even if we are not aware of it. There are so many different ways to treat sexuality as many as spiritual paths. One extreme case is to treat sexuality as an enemy, like in catholicism, or in some schools of yoga. Christians even consider it as a 'devil' thing. On the other end is tantra which use sex as a main tool for deliberation. But for others tantra itself is a main tool for deliberation of sexulal desire - Ramakrishna. Ordinary people look on sexuality and procreation as one way of immortality. They will have an ancestors. But that ancestors are new personalities with their own life, so there are not a trace of immortality. Every orgasm is a small death someone said. And it is true. Spending your life energy without any control on such way can get you far away from spiritual path. Bad investition. Hence sex can be marked as one of the greatest enemy to your efforts on overcaming material. So how to turn this enemy into a friend. How to make it works for you? To delibreate yourself of influence which sexual desire has on you goes together with deliberation of identification with your body. Old saying: you are not a body is a first step on becoming aware of your true existance in Universe. Identification with yourself as sexual being is the major part of your material state of consciousness. So watch your self from aside in everything you do, including sex. It is nothing new of course, almost every school of enlightenment from buddhism to esotheric use this same method. In fact there can`t be any other. But how to make this happen it depends a lot on every particular case. Every individual is in this case different, so if one way works for somebody it may not be working for another. You must have a good instict or expirienced guru. Be aware always that person you love or attracts you is only the body. Is there attraction or desire without the body? That attraction is a trap and it leads you to death. Exclude your feelings from sex and give them to god, heaven, to enlightenment, or to Universe. All that deserve your feelings much more. By this i don`t want to humiliate love do you feel or person you may love in any way. That person is also trapped as you are. So helping yourself you shall help your dear ones. But your desire makes you see things to narrow. You can`t be objective from your human point of view. If you already "know" all this, it doesen`t mean that you live this. It must become part of your true self in every moment, by process of self transformation. It is not about you think that you are a body, it is about do you feel yourself as a body. Spread your self all around and you`ll escape from that prison. Run with your mind with your soul with your sprit, find your desire for absolute stronger the desire for things around you. Conclusion is that in some rare situation with some rare persons you may have a sexual expirience which can help you to reach states of higher consciousness and not to put you down deeper in material. Who are that persons and when that situation will appear? nobody knows. It doesen`t have to be spiritual person at all. That people are in fact part of your destiny, not from heaven. You can create these situations by your honest whish for deliberation and god, destiny will arrange everything for you. In my opinion that should not be something planed as tantra ritual is. Life will bring you all you need. Just let it happen, and real person will arrive. If destiny doesen`t send you such situation then you`ll have to overwhelm sexuality by killing desire in you. That techniques are well known and there is no need to be explained in details here. It is important to notice that in phases near enlightenment and just after, sex is not only forbidden - it is simply impossible! Desire fade away and disappear, but for those who want to get back to the world - all of these can be 'turned on' again. Of course, if enlightened person has sex, inside it isn`t happening the same thing as in other people. He/she is not involved in it with whole heart like ordinary people. However it is not like watching from distance either like it was in process of deliberation - it is just happening and free spirit is here and everywhere. Life energy is not spent any more in any of body`s activities. It is connected to eternal source of life, and free spirit is only a guest here. [ send green star]
Eclipse F.	and marriage July 29, 2005 2:18 PM Marriage? why not. From long time ago great mystiques did find the way to become involved in life and in same time not to be lost for eternity. Most famous by this are with no doubt zen masters, but we have similar examples everywhere. In India was known Vivekamurti who has been married and had kids, and never talked about enlightenment with his friends or family. He was just ordinary man for everybody else. Concerning marriage and engagement while are you on spiritual path? it can help only if your partner is also a truth seeker. Otherwise is a great complication. In quest for enlightenment however you are all alone and no partner can help you unless if is your guru. Your social life is in fact just one acting. Deliberation is awareness that you are not your role, it is becoming aware of your true self. Messing your quest for enlightenment with ordinary activities can create big chaos in your head. More close you are to the absolute it is more harder to act in world where exist me and others. Then all human relationships are completely strange for you and cannot be understood. I don`t mean on particular events, i couldn`t understand what people are talking about, becouse i couldn`t understand usual things in their nature. After shrugging everything is possible naturaly. Even marriage. [ send green star]
IshenWarri I.	I agree with everything July 29, 2005 2:50 PM Very good post you did, Eclipse I have seen much of the same as Eclipse talk about. I know that I can not have a relationship with a person who is not on a spiritual path and somehow on same level too. I know it will be a waste of energy and time if the person is not spiritual, or do not understand what I am experiencing and living. So if destiny doesnt have someone in store for me, in future, then it is okay, because I have already devoted my whole life to the spiritual path and mission I have here. About sex, I feel that orgasm is something that is not of benefit for me. Sexual energies I have felt often, totally without desire or feeling that I "need" something or someone. It is very freeing to have it this way. I think that kundalini can be felt as strong sexual energies sometimes, since it start in root-chakra and rise up. W9 [ send green star] [ accepted]
Eclipse F.	July 30, 2005 5:07 AM Yes sexual desire is the biggest reservoir of energy at all, so is crucial for succesful menagement of kundalini arisal to up. Hence, this transformation is neccesary condition for any spiritual advancement. I am glad we have such a great devotee in our group. [ send green star]
Alina M.	thinking ... July 31, 2005 3:26 AM Quote Eclipse: ''Concerning marriage and engagement while are you on spiritual path? it can help only if your partner is also a truth seeker. Otherwise is a great complication. In quest for enlightenment however you are all alone and no partner can help you unless if is your guru.'' We may all have in our lives our own doctor, our own lawyer, etc., our own Guru. But the likelyhood of our Guru to become our partner is i think even lesser then that of our doctors. So, we ARE alone on this path. I wonder, can enlightened person fall in love with another person at all? If yes why is that so. If social life then becomes acting ... is it necessary that existing relationships eventually break apart. If not, are you being true to your spouse when you say I Love You. Can enlightened person be sad & why is that if he is enlightened? [ send green star] [ accepted]	(Member Is Blocked)
Sarvo P.	The only thing that even comes close to real love in this material world... July 31, 2005 4:37 AM is love of a mother for her child. The only real love is love of God. [ send green star] [ accepted]	(Member Is Blocked)
IshenWarri I.	A site I found a week ago or so... August 06, 2005 2:05 PM This is what I understood fully this summer. I thought that you people would like to see it. Its about being free from the physical cycle of ordinary sex and orgasm. Using sexuality in the spiritual process. The site is created by a couple who live this way, and they are very happy from what I can see. And not only that, but they also found scientific studies proving that this method is very positive, because of what happens with hormones. Some hormones rise by ordinary sex and orgasm, and create problems. While cuddling rise a hormone which is a very good one. http://www.reuniting.info/wisdom W9 [ send green star] [ accepted]
Amin A.	August 06, 2005 2:47 PM but Sarvo the 'love of God' is what we make.. we can love all things and all ppl the way we love God if we can remove the separateness between things and ppl and see God in everything! for it is He (the higher power) that has created everything so why dont we love everything HE has created the same way?! i met someone once who i felt truly loves everyone. i was curious to how and why it was that way for HIM and he explained that it's very much like when u hold ur child's horrible painting of the sun and trees.. u may hold it up against u, loving it, seeing infinite beauty in it. then u put it down again unconsciously while ur child is not far but watching TV. i thought that was beautiful.. i could relate to that completely! about sex, isnt it a natural part of us?! i believe there is nothing wrong with enjoying sex.. as much as we enjoy everything beautiful we have. i dont believe that sex comes in the way of attaining enlightenment. seeking it out and being preoccupied by it, definitely! but enjoying sex cos we can enjoy it, no.. what do u think Eclipse? as for being in luv with an unconscious person, i dont think it necessarily doesnt work. if i'm truly on my path to higher consciousness and closer to enlightenment, my loved one will have no one to quarrel with, there will b no power struggles, no arguing.. or if we do quarrel it wont last long b4 i realize that i'm getting dragged into unconsciousness and it'll end b4 it gets to far and ugly. with time my unconscious loved one will either start 'growing' too or decide to leave. both ways its good for both of us. [ send green star] [ accepted]
Robbie D.	It's all a miss-match... August 06, 2005 2:54 PM I cannot believe, that sex, marriage and freedom, can be positively linked, for the trio are - in many ways - like three opposing magnetic forces... Sex is from a lustful fraternity; marriage from a bonding of mind and body: with freedom, being seen as a gateway to the stars and destiny's pathway... Thus, a picture emerges... Marriage - is confinement to the absolute... Sex is merely an art: whereas, within a kindred spirit relationship, making love is a science... Such love can only be found within the realms of freedom... With freedom, as the only avenue whereby humanity can seek and follow its destiny in truth and unconditional love, slowly, mankind moves along the stepping stones of life, encapsulating that or those with whom it holds hands along the way... In respect to all... Robbie D.... [ send green star] [ accepted]
Amin A.	August 07, 2005 5:55 AM Hey Robbie D! i c what u mean.. i used to think that way too but with a lot of research into enlightenment (particularly to understand this point) i'd like to share what i now believe.. there r no opposing forces.. we define things in our own way at perceiving the world as opposing.. the prevalent sex and marriage today IS NOT SPIRITUAL and therefore DOES take away our freedom. lustful sex is what we have to free ourselves from on our path to enlightenment.. 'healthy' desire is driven by love. for many, it's difficult to accept that desire is legitimate. Desire remains tainted with implications of selfishness and "lower" drives but the one place in our lives where most of us feel free to express kama is romance. Btw, kama is also used in ancient scriptures, not just to describe sexual desire but also the desire to be united with God (a Creator or Nature). By implication this is the same kama that makes us want to be united with ourself.. and starts us on our path in search of enlightenment! yes marriage is confinement but if it's forced on us.. if we continuously churn with thoughts of 'how would i get out of it once i'm in'. but marriage as we know it today should really be looked upon as a social (and maybe also religious) legitimization of a bond so as to protect our rights if we become two instead of one in this predominantly non spiritual world we live in today. it is just a legal contract and title to something deeper.. a spiritual relationship or bonding where two ppl r surrendering completely to each other.. become one. in this true sense of marriage there is absolute freedom! is the world too good and beautiful in my eyes?! well yes! but isnt that great?! so ur absolutely right Robbie if we r analyzing the world today.. with no attempt at being at one with ourselves and the world we live in. love, sex, marriage and freedom r all one if we rid ourselves of the illusion of separeteness.. great topic Eclipse! [ send green star] [ accepted]
Eclipse F.	decisions August 08, 2005 4:04 AM How to enjoy pleasures of life and still remain on spiritual path? it`s an old one. From very times when spirituality became popular on the west, this discussion on how to advance to enlightenment without giving up on ordinary pleasures become greatest discussion in history of spirituality. Different masters did everything possible to find magickal solutions for their spoiled westerns students, "What kind of utopia we have here if we can`t have everything?" There are still some schools on the west promising that you can have it all. Very few of them, only rare ones still stand on the ground of reality and defend basic fact of life which is-'you have to make sucrificies.' To make things clear. Do not pretend something you already are, if you are not- do how you feel and how you want to do. There are no general rules how to treat sex and marriage. It`s all depends from person to person. One is for sure, closer you are there more you need sucrificies. On this point where are most of you know big decisions are still not necessary. You can play with differenet combinations, even make experiments..Let me repeat my self- enlightenment belong to spirituality, not materiality. And spiritual is opposed to material, till you find the big ONE. Before that don`t live as you are already in state of non-separatness. Behave in according to condition in which you are. Don`t even try to immagine, it is impossible. If you feel things as you are separated to them, then it is not illusion for you, it is real. Question is: if the separatness is an illusion, then when you realize this in your deliberation, why should you then felt a need for marriage, love or any person to feel yourself complete? You are already complete and you don`t need anybody. That`s how it is in the state of enlightenment. After it- if you want to return and turn-on your ego again, you may feel desire for somebody or something but it is never the same as it was before. It is not an acting, how somebody used to describe this, it is really hard to express the way of how returned ones feel things, so i won`t try to make similar efforts here. You`ll see this for yourself. Mother, father and a child are stending on the road in the middle of nowhere. Mother and father don`t get along any more and make decision to separate themselves on that point of the road. Mother goes in one direction, father in another. In first child is confused, doesen`t know what to do, it loves father and mother equally. Wants them both. Child run first to the mother, but then becomes sad when see father going away. Then runs to the father, but feel sorry for mother, then again runs to the mother, and all that repeats again and again. But mother and father are going away in opposite directions, and by every step they are more far away from each other, and finally when again reach mother or father child cannot see the other parent. So child realizes it that soon will lose from sight one of them forever and it becomes impossible to have them both. Now child has to make decission: which parent to choose? So are you. For now you can play games, and different combinations, you can run from one to another. As you advancing on your path your material and spritual part are getting more and more away and on one point of the road there is decission has to be made. [ send green star]
IshenWarri I.	This is the best explanation I have ever seen August 08, 2005 5:22 AM And I agree totally with this. I see myself that when I move along my spiritual process, its not possible to proceed with different materialistic things. I have also observed that its not possible to have it all. It is just not possible. It doesnt "feel right". So when I see certain discussions in spirituality groups, I watch it and know that those who think they can have it all, doesnt know what it is about. At the same time I experience every day that Universe provide you with everything. You get what you need, not what you want or wish. So wanting or wishing is a waste of time. W9 [ send green star] [ accepted]
Amin A.	August 08, 2005 5:57 AM "You are already complete and you don`t need anybody. That`s how it is in the state of enlightenment" SOOO true Eclipse. u dont need anybody or anything either! there is no 'need'. u r content and u have all that u need even if u dont have anything material cos that doesnt matter anymore. but when u do come across something good u appreciate it, even more than an unconscious person cos u dont take anything for granted anymore. yes when u dont 'need' any one any more, and u do meet a nice person u appreciate that! and if that person likes u too a love can develop which is of the purest form.. where there isnt the clingy needy nature of today's prevalent love. there is no fear of losing that person; its that fear that makes relationships today so unhealthy and strips us of our freedom. this love and consequent intimacy is very much like when something good comes our way as an enlightened soul. we welcome it, maybe as long as it last. we may keep welcoming it for yrs or it may end and it doesnt affect us at all as we r enlightened and dont 'need' anything or anyone. Very much like this beautiful Zen story.. a monk who was being chased by two tigers. He came to the edge of a cliff. He looked back - the tigers were almost upon him. Noticing a vine leading over the cliff, he quickly crawled over the edge and began to let himself down by the vine. Then as he checked below, he saw two tigers waiting for him at the bottom of the cliff. He looked up and observed that two mice were gnawing away at the vine. Just then, he saw a beautiful strawberry within arm's reach. He picked it and enjoyed the best tasting strawberry in his whole life! yes that is the end of the story! did u get it? Although only minutes from death the monk could enjoy the here and now. Our life continually sends us 'tigers' - and it continually sends us 'strawberries'. But do we even notice the strawberries in life? and do we let ourselves enjoy the strawberries? Or do we use our valuable consciousness worrying about the tigers? [ send green star] [ accepted]
IshenWarri I.	There is also one more difference August 08, 2005 6:18 AM In addition to feeling one doesnt need anything or anyone, and to feel complete. It is that one stop to search outward, totally. This is where the "Universe provide you with everything" comes in. Everything comes to you. You dont come across things. Things comes to you. And if it doesnt come to you, then its because you, as in your own spirit, doesnt "need" it. Thats why I said wishing and wanting something is a waste of time. Because its delaying your spiritual process. Or maybe worse, stopping it. The most usual wishing people do is that they wish to meet The One to live happily forever with. Because of different reasons. One very usual one is that "I dont want to be alone". The feeling of separateness express itself that way very often. Hehe....ironic... W9 [ send green star] [ accepted]
Dawn G.	hmm August 27, 2005 6:40 PM "It keeps us trapped in this material prison even if we are not aware of it." But why perceive the material as a prison? [ send green star] [ accepted]
Goddess F.	That was a lot of material to read! August 27, 2005 11:27 PM I've never thought of these things as being independent of each other, so I'm considering everything that's been said... Sex, to me, is just another form of communication, sharing, between myself and my partner. And it is temporary...physically...although our feelings from our sharing increase our feelings towards each other, because of the exposed vulnerability. There is no need to have sex...no pressure...it just happens as an extension of our feelings. Marriage can seem an ideal, if both partners don't agree on their expectations. Then, it can become a hell, for one if not both of them. If we're just talking about commitment, then I'm all for it. Of course, having a commitment with just one person is wonderful, as long as it's part of someone's Path. I've been married twice...and have been in a relationship for five years. Although I meant my vows, when I gave them, Spirit had other plans for me and my partners. I don't feel any regrets about my marriages, even if they didn't last forever. Everything is part of the process. Marriage, although surely a means to greater spiritual awareness, is still a manmade institution and will succumb to Greater Plans, if necessary. My partner is an atheist. Although I believe his self-proclaimed title is more about the resistance towards a Christian God, I respect his feelings. And he respects mine. It's been a learning experience for both of us. We have no animosity. We don't argue. We agree to disagree and give each other full permission to discuss our different beliefs. He's told me that, although he's a "certain way," he's still open to other ideas, and I've been in his shoes, so I understand. He, too, is part of my evolvement, so I don't have any expectations of him or our relationship. We only have one rule: to not sleep with members of the opposite sex. That works. Allowing detachment in all things is important. Whether it's sex or relationships... Knowing that everything is part of your teaching/learning experience and not something to coddle your ego keeps everything in proper perspective. Much Peace and Love, Always and All Ways...GFW [ send green star] [ accepted]
Amin A.	August 29, 2005 11:00 AM yeah this IS a lot!!! "allowing detachment in all things is important... " Goddess, i really liked ur closing paragraph!!! a great deal of spiritual teaching has been openly antisexual. when spiritual teachers held up chastity as a virtue - as they have in every tradition East and West - the intention was not to make pleasure a sin but to elevate a higher virtue that by implication led to higher pleasure. many were married and had children. as Krishnamurti says, the mere pursuit of pleasure throws the sacred being out the window. Krisnamurti also says "trying to suppress sexual urges is a form of ugliness that in itself cannot be chaste.. All walls of separateness turn life into a battlefield". Societies and traditional religious teaching have always blinded us to the fact that flesh and spirit are 2 poles that belong together. Romantic love is undeniably sexual; yet it contains the potential for great spiritual experiences. The beauty of sensuality has its own spiritual significance without resort to "higher" values. [ send green star] [ accepted]
Mike M.	August 29, 2005 2:50 PM I love. [ send green star] [ accepted]
Alina M.	November 22, 2005 11:48 AM Eclipse: '' As you advancing on your path your material and spritual part are getting more and more away and on one point of the road there is decission has to be made.'' When you are at that crossing, at that stage, it is only natural to choose the spiritual path, the material just drops off. Is it possible that someone coming 'so close' would turn back to material? On the other hand they say balancing between spiritual and material is the best 'trade off' for life on this planet. Grounding!! Connection with Earth, Stable, 'Material', Solid, ... all of those enable you to open up to spiritual. Being just spiritual has its defects (closed 1st and 2nd chakra) also on pathology of physical body (which i agree is only a vehicle while on Earth). So, certain material is necessary i think. I don't see then exactly how this Big Decision falls into picture. I think somehow spiritual is above material not paralel. Being above means you have been below, you know it all, you have seen it all, now you have grown (transformed). Being paralel means you haven't changed, you just went left of right, aways from eyes, away from the heart. . [ send green star] [ accepted]	(Member Is Blocked)
Eclipse F.	will you stop hidding in the bush? November 22, 2005 2:12 PM ili sto bismo mi rekli: daleko od ociju daleko od srca! You would be surprised how many people turn back to material and they were 'so close'. That kind of things happened and to some highly spiritual people even to some 'realized' gurus. This dihotomy has as i already said raised greatest discussion on the west among spiritualists. It was however problematic question and before - nothing less easyer to answer then today. Answer is that everybody has to find it`s own solution. Balance between spiritual and material depends on what is your role on Earth. My solution was not to run from one point to another but to exploite one and then to investigate another to the fullest. Just then after i was able to find real balance between them. I am saying it is impossible to do both things in the same time, first you must do material and after that your spiritual work. This balance is very rare thing to see as you may assume. Most of the people are strictly material by life style, and other spiritual ones are oftenly non-realistic illusionistic angels. Not to be slave to material nor to spiritual either, that is my teaching. Ok? [ send green star]
Alina M.	Yes, it's OK November 22, 2005 11:36 PM ''daleko od ociju daleko od srca'' this is scouting (gaining information) . [ send green star] [ accepted]	(Member Is Blocked)
Amin A.	November 23, 2005 7:33 PM when there are no more addictions, preferences may remain but eventually even preferences dissolve away.. [ send green star] [ accepted]
Eclipse F.	up & down November 25, 2005 6:53 AM What I forgot to say is - this climbing up & down by stairs of Universe is not my invention off course; it was used mostly by hermetists thousends years ago. 'We are taking virtues from above and powers from below..' while west is mainly pragmatic and India despite any attempt to deal this 'reality' most wholistic approach in spirituality came exactly from between - in space between east and west -Balkan, Middle East, Iran Judea, in teachings of Isihasm, Suffism, Kabbalah and Hermetism. Variants of these you can find in some schools of Shiva yoga, tantrism where sexuality is used as elevator from heaven to the ground.. and off course - zen as most famous on west - art of fighting with swords -Iai do ... but not so scientifically developed like in hermetism and quabbalah where we have process in detailed. In first stage this material world is used as a tool for spiritual achievement, then mystic doesen`t choose to stay there and do the opposite - now uses spiritual as a tool to contol material !!! As been said use your desire and passion to climb on higher, and don`t let your passion use you! [ send green star]
Alx U.	men, women, spirituality November 27, 2005 1:21 AM interesting discussion! what I learned in India, about men and women in marriage and serious relationships, is that in this age (this yuga, the Kali yuga), it's actually easier for people to achieve their spiritual goals if they're married. there's something in the soul relationship (and yes, marriage IS a soul relationship) that helps pull and dissolve the divine energies more efficiently in two people than in one person, alone. it's a Shiva-Shakti time, in this age. (other ages were perhaps different, with more people attaining high spiritual lives as monks or nuns.) and it doesn't mean, by the way, that every marriage is then automatically filled with perfect love and light. hah! anyone who's been on the spiritual path with any dedication knows that it's about purification, and that implies being uncomfortable a lot of the time. (and being in a couple is GREAT for creating that necessary kind of friction, the friction to the egoism and all the other trappings of a false self we carry around every day.) union and friction are two sides of the same coin, it seems -- especially when we're talking about soul relationships while we're experiencing them in physical forms in a world based in duality, in opposites like male-female, love-hate, night-day, good-evil, life-death, etc. just my two cents. Alx [ send green star] [ accepted]
Amin A.	November 27, 2005 4:28 AM i felt like i should scroll up and c what i wrote earlier b4 adding on or responding but i know that this is quite an old thread so let me write down MY 2 cents NOW and read what i had written earlier after submitting (oh i like that word! ) i c ur point Alx. i agree completely too. i'd like to add that with marriage, and nowadays it takes a lot to get 2 ppl to tie the knot, 2 ppl r vowing to try to make it work in anyway possible and as long as they can because they have come to the conclusion that we'r meant for each other.. then they r confronted with continuous friction though they cannot separate so easily. its not like sitting on a bus and the guy next to u stinks, u'll just get up and leave or u'll bear it till u get off. there's none of that in marriage! so in marriage the fusion can b a huge growth booster or spiritual cummulator! or of course it could turn into a battlefield the way we go thro life opposing everything anyway! [ send green star] [ accepted]
Garabet M.	February 23, 2008 5:13 PM Daily Aphorism "Possession is not important, contentedness is. Be contented in any situation, and problems will be kept away." The Supreme Master Ching Hai Just be contended with your partner and develop unconditional love. If you are single, also apply the same method. It is simple but one should be focused, determined and self testing at all times. With God Love [ send green star] [ accepted]