START A PETITION 27,000,000 members: the world's largest community for good
START A PETITION
x
Group Discussions
label:  
  Surprise Me
| track thread
« Back to topics
THE COLLEGE SCAM
3 years ago
| Surprise Me

What do Michael Dell, Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates and Mark Cuban have in common?

 

They're all college dropouts.

 

Richard Branson, Simon Cowell and Peter Jennings have in common?

They never went to college at all.

 

But today all kids are told: To succeed, you must go to college.

Hillary Clinton tells students: "Graduates from four-year colleges earn nearly twice as much as high school graduates, an estimated $1 million more."

We hear that from people who run colleges. And it's true. But it leaves out some important facts

 

That's why I say: For many people, college is a scam.

I spoke with Richard Vedder, author of "Going Broke by Degree: Why College Costs Too Much," and Naomi Schafer Riley, who just published "Faculty Lounges and Other Reasons Why You Won't Get the College Education You Paid For."

 

Vedder explained why that million-dollar comparison is ridiculous:

"People that go to college are different kind of people ... (more) disciplined ... smarter. They did better in high school."

 

They would have made more money even if they never went to college.

Riley says some college students don't get what they pay for because their professors have little incentive to teach.

 

"You think you're paying for them to be in the classroom with you, but every hour a professor spends in the classroom, he gets paid less. The incentives are all for more research."

 

The research is often on obscure topics for journals nobody reads.

Also, lots of people not suited for higher education get pushed into it. This doesn't do them good. They feel like failures when they don't graduate. Vedder said two out of five students entering four-year programs don't have a bachelor's degree after year six.

 

"Why do colleges accept (these students) in the first place?"

Because money comes with the student -- usually government-guaranteed loans.

 

"There are 80,000 bartenders in the United States with bachelor's degrees," Vedder said. He says that 17 percent of baggage porters and bellhops have a college degree, 15 percent of taxi and limo drivers. It's hard to pay off student loans with jobs like those. These days, many students graduate with big debts.

 

Entrepreneur Peter Thiel, who got rich helping to build good things like PayPal and Facebook, is so eager to wake people up to alternatives to college that he's paying students $100,000 each if they drop out of college and do something else, like start a business.

"We're asking nothing in return other than meetings so we make sure (they) work hard, and not be in school for two years," said Jim O'Neill, who runs the foundation.

For some reason, this upsets the left. A Slate.com writer called Thiel's grant a "nasty idea" that leads students into "halting their intellectual development ... maintaining a narrow-minded focus on getting rich."

 

But Darren Zhu, a grant winner who quit Yale for the $100,000, told me, "Building a start-up and learning the sort of hardships that are associated with building a company is a much better education path."

 

I agree. Much better. Zhu plans to start a biotech company.

What puzzles is me is why the market doesn't punish colleges that don't serve their customers well. The opposite has happened: Tuitions have risen four times faster than inflation.

 

"There's a lot of bad information out there," Vedder replied. "We don't know ... if (students) learned anything" during their college years.

"Do kids learn anything at Harvard? People at Harvard tell us they do. ... They were bright when they entered Harvard, but do ... seniors know more than freshman? The literacy rate among college graduates is lower today than it was 15 or 20 year ago. It is kind of hard for people to respond in market fashion when you don't have full information."

 

Despite the scam, the Obama administration plans to increase the number of students getting Pell grants by 50 percent. And even a darling of conservatives, New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie, says college is a must: "Graduating from high school is just the first step."

We need to wake people up.

 

http://townhall.com/columnists/johnstossel/2011/07/06/the_college_scam

3 years ago

Michael Dell, Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates and Mark Cuban are the basis for the comparison?

 

There are clearly flaws in the education system, but trying to make a point on a few anecdotal stories of success is a bit silly.

 

Looking at things from an economic perspective:

 

Are you going to tell Drs, Laywers, nurses, accountants, mathematicians, statisticians, etc.... that going to college is a waste? What kind of idiocy is that?

 

If you are going to take the position that a "classical education" such as one in the humanities, english, philosophy and maybe social sciences, isn't a necc. worth the price, I would agree with you.

 

But what is the value of a better understanding of history, humanities, the arts, etc.... in terms of quality of life? Are we really going to reduce college to "what kind of job did you get" when you got out?

 

 

3 years ago

Education is a good thing. Key word: "education". But in today's academia it's much too often a case of garbage in garbage out in important fields such as history, economics, even in the medical field. There is an 'establishment' in academia that largely supports the wealthy elite statists, who are supported by the government. What gets 'taught' is what serves them and is not always in the best interests of humanity. We see how well that 'good education' has worked out for America with all our 'college educated' representatves and the economists they listen too. We see how well it's worked out for sick people depending on a medical indusrty that treats instead of cures - or prevents.

3 years ago

Yeah! Those Elite Statists! Even all those private school professors that are supported by the government! Yeah!

 

And those economists! They are the problem with our healthcare industry!

3 years ago

Thnaks for the video, Rhonda

 

3 years ago

I was brought up in the years when all parents thought that you had to get a college education or you'd never get a good job. I ranked seventh in my high school graduating class, so my parents thought that I actually HAD to have a college education or they would be totally embarrassed. My mother asked me what I wanted to major in, and I said "Theatre." Her answer was NO, NO! No daughter of mine is going into the entertainment business. So I gave in and majored in English. Since I wanted to be a professional writer, studying literature was an obvious step for me, and I wouldn't have minded becoming an English teacher. But this was in the late 1960's, when EVERY high school graduate was told to major in education, "because teachers will always be needed."


Famous last words! In the early 1970's, there was, not surprisingly, a teacher glut. Of the most popular careers in that time, teachers were the most numerous. But jobs? I remember seeing a graph in the newspaper which listed the most needed jobs for women, then the next most, etc. - and the need for teachers was on the bottom of the graph. The most plentiful jobs went to young women who had gone to secretarial school. So all these teachers had to go to work as secretaries - which they could have learned to do in secretarial school.


I didn't want to train to be a teacher because I found education courses stultifying and boring. I went to work as a legal secretary because I found the law fascinating. Some of my fellow legal secretaries realized that they were doing most of the work that lawyers were supposed to do, and so they went to law school to earn as much money as their former bosses. And the firms where they had worked as secretaries were more than glad to hire them as attorneys. But that wasn't what I really wanted to do. I wanted to be a writer and musician.


When I managed to actually publish a few books and a number of magazine articles, AND become a professional musician, I wondered why my parents had been so adamant about not wanting me to study music and drama. That was what I finally ended up doing, along with the writing. I won't say that I wasted my years in college, but I wish I had been allowed to study music and drama.


Now, a BA is practically useless. If you want a college degree to make a difference, you have to have a Masters', or a PhD, or an MD or LlD. (law degree). Or an MS. or degree in computer science. (Think of all the money that goes into those degrees!) A lot of bright young computer enthusiasts are now seeking jobs as computer specialists. And it seems that this is deja vu: The rush to find good computer jobs reminds me of the teacher glut of the 1970's. I would therefore take a bet that a lot of bright young computer enthusiasts who had dreams of building the ultimate computer are now serving coffee at Starbucks.


In my days as a college student, a University degree, even a lowly Bachelor's, was a status symbol. Now a Bachelor's won't get you very far as a status symbol. I really don't think that Mark Zuckerberg cared a whit about being a status symbol. He was a multi-millionaire before he was thirty.


So what will be the next much-wanted career? Will the grandchildren of the computer boomers become astronauts - and then end up sweeping the floors at NASA because of an astronaut glut? Who knows? All I know is that my grandsons, ages 10 and 12, are already computer experts. In a few years, when they are both teenagers, they might find employment as computer analysts!


In the immortal words of Bob Dylan, "the times they are a-changin'."



This post was modified from its original form on 06 Jul, 12:24
3 years ago

Ha! I guess even the super-rich need to have something to worry about, Rhonda! At this juncture in history, we are lucky if we have a home and food and people who love us. But 2012 is just over the horizon. I'm interested to see what it brings, if anything!

3 years ago

Economics professors teach economics and economic theory. That is what they teach. Keynesian economics is a portion of that.

 

Why would anyone hire a BS in Physics? That person doesn't know anything useful yet. OUr technology is SO FAR from the level of BS, that you should understand that getting into that field will require a Higher level of Education then just a BS.

 

Its pretty easy to simply dismiss colleges and universities outright with tiny anecdotal examples and large grandiose dismissive statements, at least for those that have the INTERNET, to guide their belief system...

3 years ago

Nothing like ignoring the fact that a Masters in any field is not required or needed to work in the fast food or retail industries. Until and unless there is a huge demand for a specialized degreed workforce, then it is not necessary for millions of high school grads to indebt themselves for tens of thousands dollars before they get that job - hopefully - at WalMart.

Nothing like ignoring the fact that the high cost of acquiring a college degree is part and parcel of another ponzi scheme ... if colleges and universities were not able to count on government loans to finance their operation then tuitions would not be so ridiculously expensive.

3 years ago

Two faulty arguments -

 

One, you dismiss supply and demand completetly. There is a demand for college educated work force, but only the best and the brightest and those with technical skills. Colleges can charge based on that demand.

 

IF you want to work in retail, don't go to college. No one is making you go to college. the costs are known, the job prospects are known, the choice is yours. If there was less demand the cost would go down.

 

College is more than a means to a job, there are higher and more noble goals associated with higher education. making higher education into a commodity is similar to making music, art, english, etc.. into a commodity. You can, but your life will suck a little bit more. Well, problaby not for you...

 

 

3 years ago

This is what I wrote in another group:

 

"

All those people are the EXCEPTIONS rather than the norm.  If the average person could become a millionaire without any education, well, we'd all be millioniares.

 

Yes, Hillary Clinto IS right,  The avaerage salary for college educated people IS higher.  On the average.  That doesn't mean there aren't exceptional millionaires such as those listed above.  That also doesn't mean there aren't homeless college grads.

 

Overall, I would encourage college for many.  But certainly not all-  go be a plumber instead. 

 

And the exceptional will become the new Bill Gates."

 

 

3 years ago

"Did you see that part about the book scam?  Damned colleges are trying to keep book prices inflated by coming out with new editions constantly so students can't shop around and get them online cheaper. "

 

It is actually the publisher that do that- not the colleges and universities.

 

BUT-  the other thing that happens is that students need so many more resources- online study guide, videos, pictures, sample questions, powerpoint.  The price of all of that is also built into the books.  So the help is there for the students.

3 years ago

"Until and unless there is a huge demand for a specialized degreed workforce"

 

There isn't?  That's news to me.  In fact, I keep hearing that Americans don't have ENOUGH training and skill to compete in high tech.

3 years ago

"Nothing like ignoring the fact that the high cost of acquiring a college degree is part and parcel of another ponzi scheme ... if colleges and universities were not able to count on government loans to finance their operation then tuitions would not be so ridiculously expensive."

 

WTF?

 

I agree that there are many ponzi schemes in the world today.  In fact, just about everything can be viewed that way.  But I hardly view colleges and universities that way.

 

I DO consider these new online for-profit universities though to be a major SCAM.

3 years ago

"The book publisher's couldn't do that without the permission of the colleges....that way the books you buy have ZERO resale value because the colleges approve each sucessive revised edition.  It's a scam. "

 

Permission?  Not really. Colleges don't approve editions.  Individuals may have reviewed the books, but that is NOT the same as giving permission to sell it.

 

"20% of waiters have a college degree....why  wouldn't you use that if there was such a demand?"

 

YOu have no idea of many variables.  1.  What IS the degree?  2.  What are the person's choices- do they want to stay in their college town?  and 3.  Whether they are doing the job temporarily.

3 years ago

Honestly, it is not very likely that I dwould sit and watch a whole hour of a video- if you wish to summarize or have an article with the same stats, I'll listen.

3 years ago

If there was such a 'huge demand' for a degreed workforce they why are so many degreed people working at low level crap jobs or not working at all?  I'd be very very upset if I spent $30K for a degree and the best paying job I could find was being a waiter or bartender. 

 

 

3 years ago

 

Let's take a look at the rise in tuition costs and what drivesthem (hint: government backed loans)...

 

 

College tuition and fees have gone up faster than housing, income, and medical care costs which are already stripping bare the balance sheet of American households.  This is a similar question I had during the housing boom.  How is it possible for home prices to go up while incomes are stagnant?  In the case of housing it was massive and easy to get credit.  Why are college costs soaring when middle class income is shrinking?  Again it is access to this debt [credit] as seen above.

 

While other sectors decline colleges can rest assured their money is secured by the Federal government.  The largest source of funding for education is the government:

 

fidelity-5-steps-5-years-before-college_chart3x

 

Nearly half of college funding comes from the government.  There have been studies showing that for each jump in loan access tuition subsequently rises.  No shocker here.  Colleges are trying to get as much profit as possible even if results are not showing up in the overall economy.  Of course it depends on what university you go to as well.

 

Attend a top private school and you are likely to make solid connections that will yield a solid return on your investment.  Yet I would argue that this goes for the top 50 colleges in the country.  We have over 4,800 institutions of higher education.  If not a top 50 private then a public college.  Public colleges however are now getting more expensive as well because of poor state budget issues.  The fact of the matter is most people attend okay to mediocre to bad schools.  When the economy tightens up like it has career choice and quality start to matter much more.  Many of the for-profit institutions are one step above paper mills.

 

 

 


 

 

The privateers of education – How banks collude with the government to inflate college costs. Student loan debt now surpasses total credit card debt.

 

One of the more ominous statistics coming from this recession is thatstudent loan debt has now surpassed total credit card debt in the United States.  The reason for this is based on the deep impact of the recession.  Credit card debt peak at $975 billion back in September of 2008 and is now down to $826 billion. 

 

...

 

 

The cost of a college education has far outpaced the rate of inflation. Private institutions realize the government will cover the cost of students going to college through loans so subsequently, they raise fees and push the government to increase their loan caps.  How in the world can education costs be going up at a time when the economy came to a standstill in the last three years?  In fact, in the last year we have been dealing with a deflationary environment yet costs of education still keep going up.  If schools can increase prices and have the government subsidize loans, then you can rest assured the banks will be pushing these things out like candy.

“This is the problem when you have a government for the banks, run by the banks, and designed by the banks.”

 

3 years ago

"If there was such a 'huge demand' for a degreed workforce they why are so many degreed people working at low level crap jobs or not working at all?  I'd be very very upset if I spent $30K for a degree and the best paying job I could find was being a waiter or bartender."

 

Are the waiters and bartenders who have degrees actually degreed in a TECHNOLOGY- that is what I was addressing.   Are these people compter programmer wannabes or engineer waanabes?

 

If so, then I would be upset-  especially when Bill gates and others are wandering around saying that are people aren't well enough trained.

3 years ago

"Let's take a look at the rise in tuition costs and what drivesthem (hint: government backed loans)..."

 

Hint- how about, unlike the government, they actually have to balance a budget.

3 years ago

"Textbook companies have countered this by encouraging faculty to assign homework that must be done on the publisher's website. If a student has a new textbook then he or she can use the pass code in the book to register on the site. If the student has purchased a used textbook then he or she must pay money directly to the publisher in order to access the website and complete assigned homework."

 

I actually don't know any faculty who use those things- and I know alot of faculty.

3 years ago

"New grads have degrees but no jobs"

 

And we have 10% unemployment.  Why would new grads be any different than anyone else?

3 years ago

Let's take a look at the other side of the coin: Years ago, I was traveling in England, and stayed at a youth hostel. I met a girl who had just completed her MBA, and had celebrated by traveling through Europe. She told me that she had racked up $30,000 in student loans and had no intention of paying them off. When she got back to the US, she said, she was going to file bankruptcy and get rid of all her college debts. She then told me that her uncle had promised her a job that paid very well as soon as she returned home.

There's something wrong with this picture. Perhaps this girl wasn't the only one who pulled this scam. Maybe there are others who thought it was very clever to scr*w the banks and the colleges, then go secure a high-paying job and have a great life. And I wonder who paid for her trip to Europe. Her uncle? Her parents? This happened about 20 years ago. I bet that her uncle has retired and she is one of the top-level executives. For some people, honesty is NOT the best policy!

3 years ago

"Let's take a look at the other side of the coin: Years ago, I was traveling in England, and stayed at a youth hostel. I met a girl who had just completed her MBA, and had celebrated by traveling through Europe. She told me that she had racked up $30,000 in student loans and had no intention of paying them off. When she got back to the US, she said, she was going to file bankruptcy and get rid of all her college debts. She then told me that her uncle had promised her a job that paid very well as soon as she returned home."

 

I don't know when this happened and I am not asking.  But  the one debt that you can't get out of is student loans.  Goes back to a case in the 1960s where a couple guys finished law school with thousands in debt and immediately declared bankruptcy.  So laws were put in place.

3 years ago

"because they have a college degree....isn't that supposed to be the edge they have on those without one?"

 

They aren't applying for the same jobs.  But since many jobs have been cut- they aren't getting to the ones they would have been able to get to a few years ago.

3 years ago

Read and understand.

 

There is demand for the best and the brightest and those with technical skills. Period. I just hired one. Based on that demand colleges can charge. You want access to that job? Be the best. IF your not, think about it another path.

 

That MBA must have been pretty crappy, considering she didn't know that bankruptcy can't remove Student loans. .

 

The best thing about this "argument" is that you blame the colleges and not the job/employer/tax/employee policies of the US over the last 30 years.

 

The other thing that no one will address is that there is more to college than just "getting a job" when you get out.

3 years ago

Nancy, it's a valid question to ask what kind of degrees the waiter and bartenders have or how many of them just 'chose' not to utilize their very expensive education, but I don't think the numbers would stack up in favor of saying most of them 'chose' not to utilize their education or that they didn't get the right kind of degree.

 

How many IT jobs did Gates and others farm out to cheap labor countries? Countless.  However, Microsoft is saying that it's the 'schools' that are failing to properly train students in technology.

 

 

 

 

3 years ago

"How many IT jobs did Gates and others farm out to cheap labor countries? Countless.  However, Microsoft is saying that it's the 'schools' that are failing to properly train students in technology."

 

THAT"S the scam.

 

(but I see a big difference in a bartender who majored in philosophy for example versus a bartender with a degree in electrical engineering or computer science.  I also see recent grads who don't know what they want to do or love their college town and CHOOSE to stay).

3 years ago

"INCREDIBLY COMPETITIVE"

 

Absolutely

 

"AMERICAN GRADS CAN'T BUY A JOB"

 

The SCAM also is in thinking that 1.  Education GUARANTEES a job, 2.  Education GUARANTEES a higher salary, 3.  Education is "training", they are two different things, and 4.  You can BUY a job.

3 years ago

Katii,  YOu comment above is great.  You are right that what many recent grads are doing right now is probably not what they want.  It is not the reason they went to school, etc. etc. etc.

 

But basing a whole discourse on education on the last three years economy when we have 10% unemployment and manya reas are losing jobs, isn't a great thing either.  Just because recent grads are having a hard time, doesn't make the whole higher education system a scam.

 

 

3 years ago

"Well Nancy that's my point exactly....they paid all that money so that they would have an edge in getting a job"

 

Nobody ever said that college would give any particular person a job.

 

Overall, though the statistics are there.  The overall salarries of people with college degrees is higher.

3 years ago

"The other thing that no one will address is that there is more to college than just "getting a job" when you get out."

 

Absolutely- I hadn't gotten there yet.

3 years ago

"I don't know when this happened and I am not asking. But the one debt that you can't get out of is student loans. Goes back to a case in the 1960s where a couple guys finished law school with thousands in debt and immediately declared bankruptcy. So laws were put in place."

Thanks, Nancy. This happened in the 1990's. And frankly, I'm glad to hear that! Seeing that I had to pay back my student loans, it really rankled me that this broad was scheming to welch on them. She probably wasn't aware of those laws - so when she got back from her trip to Europe she probably was in for a big surprise. What goes around, comes around! Hah!

3 years ago

"The other thing that no one will address is that there is more to college than just "getting a job" when you get out."

 

 

Chile, you're assuming that no one "will" address that.  What's with the "no one will address" language?  Have you 'asked' and been 'refused'?  Uh, no. In fact, NOBODY has denied there aren't benefits to going to college (see opening article) other than "getting a job" when you get out.  HOWEVER, it's the rare person who goes to college without the intention that their college education will not only GET THEM A JOB, but a BETTER JOB.

 

The topic of discussion is "For many people, college is a scam" - note:  it does not say "for ALL people.." it says "for MANY people.."

 

The subject is the cost/benefit ratio question - are college students actually getting a fair return on their investment.  In too many cases they are not, meanwhile the universities - especially private schools - are raking in more money than ever because, as the articles I posted above demonstrate, banks have NO incentive NOT to grant 'student loans' because the good ol' government committs U.S. tax payers to guarantee them against default.  It's a win-win for the lender because there is zero risk.  The good ol' U.S. tax payer takes all the risk, and often loses to the tune of tens of billions of dollars every year.

 

3 years ago

"The topic of discussion is "For many people, college is a scam" - note:  it does not say "for ALL people.." it says "for MANY people.."

 

 

 

getting back to the actual article.  I almost agree.  I might just say Some people rather than many.  But hey-

 

(On the other hand,  if a harvard professor or some other academic brainiac ever said this (and many do- just not publicaly), they would be accussed of elitism.)

 

What we don't do a good enough job with is the exploration of other professions that do not require degrees.

 

 

3 years ago

Somewhere between ~2009 and now, someone has continually been pissing in Katii's cheerios...

 

The author of the book that they are discussing - Richard Vedder - happens to work at Ohio University.

 

Hmm... How did he get any credibility!

 

Ooh OOhh I know!!!

 

His education! ahh.... yes...

3 years ago

Among other postions Dr. (he's a phD) takes is that big box stores are good for the economy and the worker as he wrote in his book "The Walmart Revolution".

 

He is also an adjunct scholar at the American Enterprise institute.

 

That's a Libertarian and conservative economic policy think tank! BUt I thought ALL Professors espoused "liberal Keynesian" "Garbage in - Garbage out"...

 

3 years ago

From Sourcewatch

Later that year Vedder served as "peer-reviewer" for a pro-tobacco junk science report: Science, Economics, and Environmental Policy: A Critical Examination also published by AdTI.

 

There are 45 documents in the Tobacco Institute documents online mentioning Richard Vedder, many of them are confidental reports listing "hired guns' in academic white labcoats that will provide expert testimony.

3 years ago

Great. More information from another Americans for Prosperity website.

3 years ago

"Rock the Ivory Tower: New Facebook Poll

Do you think professors should be held more accountable to students in regard to their teaching performance?"

 

How could you even begin to look at that?  teachers get evaluated by students, despite students having little information about what good teaching is or how to judge teaching.  What they know is:  Did I understand this professor?  (easy if you don't teach much) or worse:  Did I get a good grade?

 

Neither one is a good way to judge teaching, just as judging an educational system based SOLELY on whether the recent graduates are employed is not a good way to judge EDUCATION.


3 years ago

Rhonda, how does your little brain process information? You make an assumption that has no basis in reality and then jump to some ridiculous notion that  kids be indentured slaves to get an education.

 

No wonder you believe all that crazy assbatshyte out there...

 

Jesus...

3 years ago

"Of course college is beneficial to most students and yet it it touted as a panacea for all students by the colleges themselves.  Watch that Stossel thing and see what I mean.  Basically it boils down to false advertising."

 

I have NEVER heard it touted as a panacea for all students.  But I do see what you mean about student loan debt.

3 years ago

BUt I thought ALL Professors espoused "liberal Keynesian" "Garbage in - Garbage out" -Chile

 

What made you think that?  

3 years ago

What made you think that?  

I don't think that

You and Rhonda said those things.

3 years ago

Well, there was that Twilight Zone episode-  Ways to serve man.

3 years ago

I don't think that

 

You and Rhonda said those things. -Chile

 

No, I didn't say those things.  Your saying I did is pure BS, but that's the case with just about everything you post here - when you don't have a qualified argument then you just invent crap.  Here is what I 'said', and to make it easier for you to understand what I actually said I've highlighted in bold text:

 

But in today's academia it's much too often a case of garbage in garbage out in important fields such as history, economics, even in the medical field. There is an 'establishment' in academia that largely supports the wealthy elite statists, who are supported by the government. What gets 'taught' is what serves them and is not always in the best interests of humanity. We see how well that 'good education' has worked out for America with all our 'college educated' representatves and the economists they listen too. We see how well it's worked out for sick people depending on a medical indusrty that treats instead of cures - or prevents.

 

3 years ago

Got it Katii - like when you said "huge demand" - when no one made the claim.

 

I invent crap? - Your whole statement above is invented crap. Mad ramblings of pshyco...


"wealthy elite statists" - get over yourself.

3 years ago

like when you said "huge demand" - when no one made the claim.

 

Chile, care to qualify that latest pile invented crap?  Here, let me help you...

 

 

Here are the three times, in chronological order, that the words "huge demand" was used in this thread prior to your use of them to claim there was not claim. Now, follow closely...

 

1.  Until and unless there is a huge demand for a specialized degreed workforce... -Katii 

 

2.  "Until and unless there is a huge demand for a specialized degreed workforce" -Nancy quoting Katii

 

There isn't?  That's news to me.  In fact, I keep hearing that Americans don't have ENOUGH training and skill to compete in high tech. -Nancy responding to Katii

 

3.  If there was such a 'huge demand' for a degreed workforce they why are so many degreed people working at low level crap jobs or not working at all? -Katii responding to Nancy's response

 

 

OK, now, when you said, "when no one made the claim" ... were you referring to the claim I made that there wasn't a 'huge demand' or do you mean the claim Nancy made in reference to a 'huge demand'?  Oh wait, it's neither of those claims because you're claiming there was no claim.  

 

3 years ago

Actually Kaiti has it exactly right. It was the Rockefellers who- by threatening to cut funding- forced American colleges to stop all teaching of the medical use of herbs in favor of the (then very new) chemical drug industry.

 

After which huge propaganda campaigns were used to laud the effects of these new drugs as the cause of man's increasing lifespan- while refrigeration was a more likely reason.

 

Just one of the instances of the "wealthy elite statists" steering "our" educational system towards their profits.

3 years ago

Send a Green Star to Edward Riordan

Sending a Green Star is a simple way to say "Thank you"
Show Green Star as from: Katii L.

3 years ago

Touche!

 

But the rest of your post is still unsupported crap.

 

Now its the rockefellers?

3 years ago

I just thought I would let everyone here know ... I live with Katii and she is definitely not a psyco and in over 35 years of knowing and loving her I have never heard her ramble.  kk

3 years ago

Chile *newsflash* ...... I'm not stupid or careless, therefore, whether or not you agree or appreciate it or not, I don't post unsupported anything

3 years ago

Thank you, Laura, for the moral support

3 years ago

"But the rest of your post is still unsupported crap."  - Chile dog

 

 

I actually like his posts.

 

They show quite clearly just how dangerous the mainstream media is.

3 years ago

When you are working in a non-profit with and for people (teachers working with students), it has not been helpful in the past to have customer/client focus.  That's not how it should work.  Since the really successful scions of industry are so corrupt anyway, why do we want to pattern children's educations after the corporate model? 

 

"Who Took My Cheese?" 

 

Corporate Translation:  "Get Washington on the phone.  We'll crush those cheese-stealing  bastards.  Then we'll doctor the books."

 

No thanks.

3 years ago

Send a Green Star to Nancy M.

Sending a Green Star is a simple way to say "Thank you"

You cannot currently send a star to Nancy because you have done so within the last week

3 years ago

"I just thought I would let everyone here know ... I live with Katii and she is definitely not a psyco and in over 35 years of knowing and loving her I have never heard her ramble.  kk"

 

Well, I don't live with Katii but I have been interacting with her at care2 for some time.  She definitely has points of view that are different than mine but I respect that.  She is very informed- especially when I disagree.

 

And thanks for the green star Ss L.

3 years ago

Thanks, Nancy  I have a lot of respect for you, so much so that when we do agree I get nearly giddy

 

 

This thread is archived. To reply to it you must re-activate it.