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Great debate - Civic vs. Prius April 16, 2005 5:03 PM

Hi all. This is my first post in your neck of the woods and though I would pole your thoughts on the "little guys". I'm in the market for a new vehicle (avoided having one for a few years but am finally, although reluctantly, conform a little more to the system) and I'm 95% sure it'll be either a Prius of Civic Hybrid (possibly an Echo as they also get good mileage). So for those of you who own or have test-driven either or both what are you thoughts? Price, mileage, handling, safety features, extra gadgets, durability, etc. I won't start my serious shopping till I'm north of the boarder in June to take advantage but it's great having extra insight (sorry about the pun). Cheers!  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
Prius April 18, 2005 12:03 PM

I own a Pruis and am very very happy with it. No sales tax! Peace, Stacey  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
 April 18, 2005 5:37 PM

I'm really happy with my Honda Civics. Yes, that's plural. I have a 2000 Civic VP and a 2004 Civic Hybrid. They are both great cars. Since I have two different models, I can compare them. One thing is the looks - the Hybrid looks like the VP. I personally didn't like the space age look of the Prius - not that anything is wrong with it, just not my thing. While both cars do have large cargo capacity for their size - the VP has a fold down rear seat for extra storage or for large items. The Hybrid's back seat can't fold down - that's where the battery is. It still has a large trunk (I've hauled at one time 6 bags of mulch, 2 bags of soil with room to spare). Pricewise, the Hybrid is not that much more expensive than a conventional Civic - and the price difference is quickly made up by the operational savings. The Civics are fun cars to drive and handle well. Oh, one thing I forgot to mention - the VP is automatic, and the Hybrid is manual. Gas mileage on the Hybrid depends on the outside temperature and driving conditions. In heavy city traffic in the dead of winter my mileage will drop to 37 mpg. In the summer on the highway I can hit 52 mpg. The best I've ever done is 78 mpg, but I had just filled it on a mountainous road. I've had the car about 18 months and the overall average over 18 months is just over 43 mpg. The sound system is good. The air conditioner is great - as long as the car is running. Since I run the car on economy mode, it shuts down when I come to a stop provided the engine is warm. At that point the AC shuts down, too. That took some getting used to. I think both Civics have decent pick up for getting out in traffic. Would I buy another Honda? Yes. Oh, I also have a 1987 Honda Accord LXi which, before the engine blew (another story) was getting over 30 mpg on the highway. Not bad.  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
 April 18, 2005 7:33 PM

Thanks for the replies ladies. Stacey, could you explain this "no sales tax" thing to me? I'll most likely be buying the vehicle in Canada ($ difference and all) and I'm not sure exactly what we have in place there, if anything, but I'd love more info on any tax breaks/credits, available on this side of the boarder.  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
Got my Prius 2 weeks ago & lovin it! April 19, 2005 1:10 AM

I drove the Civic 1st & it drove very nice. But I wanted more room for my bike, camping, travelling, hauling & sleeping in. Prius is a midsize car & similarly priced. It should hold up it value even better with these & other attributes, such as better gas milage. I'd say it's the only serious full hybrid out there as a 5 person car. Toyota has been totally committed to the environment since 1992, unlike everybody else & VW & GM who look at the botton line (your money!). The emissions are ultra clean which means less global warming, ozone depletion, smog, coughing, sore eyes, environmental degredation, etc. Works great in the town/city & bumper to bumper stop-and-go traffic. It an electric car WITH a gas engine, not the other way around. The car moves with 295 pounds of torque from the electric motor! It's for sensible grown-ups not for egos. It's more fun than the Honda because it incredible aerodynamic shape (.26 cd WHOA!!!) says it all. Toyota has approching all the patents for hybrid technology which will be necessary for fuel cell cars. And as mass production increases, other companies don't stand a chance to compete. Good bye GM, etc. Looks like another corporate handout of YOUR money! If you want it, driving has a fun element to it that no other car has, in that it reminds me of a video game to see if you can get better mileage. I heard the President on the 'net & he really has his head & heart in the right place. The first generation Toyota hybrid was in Japan, 1997. This is the 3rd. I respect the Civic, & the others hybrids have their place (usually marketing & to have a hybrid presence only. The gas engine & electric motor turns off at stop signs, & the electric motor is good up to 25 mph even. Heck it SO revolutionary that you can get hardware to buy cheap electricity at night & get something like 200 mpg (for about 40 miles), & it possible to lower your electric bills by feeding back electricity into the electric grid system. Prius means before, & this is the future (at lease till fuel cell come along in a good while). The Prius, a hatchback, 60/40 seats fold down in back (as do the front ones). I got mine in just over a week because I wanted a hard to find model with package 4. I'm not sure why someone would want a Civic over a Prius, even though Hondas are excellent cars. Seats are comfy (especially with thick sheepskin covers). The horizontal bar in the rear glass works for me to stop bright headlights at night. Seat repel dirt & spots I hear from an owner. On very steep grades in the snow you'll need studded tires being a front wheell drive car. It doesn't even have a real transmission, but a CVT ("contiuous variable transmission") of 1,000 possible ratios, which is very practical for a number of reasons. I like the "brake setting" for decompression type braking that gives me extra milage & slow the car down nicely. The Smart Key is magic! The car recognizes you so you just need the key 3 feet away & it unlocks & isn't needed in the key "hole" (it not that kind of key, more like a fob remote). Visibility takes getting use to, but is alright. Parks real easy. In Japan they have a option for automatic parking where the car somehow parks itself parallel! My, those copy cat Japanese- ha!. There's even a button (hidden on U.S. cars) to let the driver determine to stay in electric mode. This 2nd/3rd (depending how you count) Prius is much better than the previous one. The only problem with the Prius is that you don't have one, or two or so. But it is so popular they pretty much make you take floor mats & there is no bargaining. HINT: go to a auto buyer to buy one & avoid the dealer handling charges (or whatever they may call it). Buyers tend to be well educated, affluent, intelligent, women, who care about life. Seems like all of Hollywood has gotten on the Prius bandwagon, & not the Civic or whatever. Seems like a no-brainer to me (& to lots of others). The car sells itself, so they are boosting production. It's one hot car!  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
More info. April 19, 2005 2:32 AM

On the web, go to for a great site!! The Prius is the best milage car out there (unless you want the weird 2 seater Insight). What epa city mileage would you like? Say 60 mpg? That's only the Prius. ALL cars get worse than the epa says, by the way. Get use to the areodynamic shape of the Prius. I'm tinting the windows so it will look sleeker yet & nicer. That's what nature intended the shape should be for pushing air down the highway. The Prius I bought has an vehicle stability control device beside ABS, dual air bags, air curtains front & rear, voic-activated DVD navigation system with hand-freephone capability via Bluetooth, really cool high intensity Discharge headlights, fog lamps, rear spoiler, anti theft, non-mauual/"automatic" "transmission", push button start, Toyota reputation & reliabilty with great warrantees. European cars are way overpriced in the U.S. & they fall apart so often & are expensive to fix. They look nice & drive different. American cars are not highly rated, but improving with some models/lines. Korean car are coming along nicely. In decades to come, watch out for Chinese cars. Adrian B, thanks for your question, but you being an environmental "Save the world" kind of guy, I'd think that you'd be singing the Prius love-song!! Here's a bottom line for everyone to know. Of all cars, even more than the Lexus by like 6 per cent, owners would more often buy another Prius (97 or so percent). is a great site for consumers. Toyotas have very tight machining clearences so that they last longer than other cars. And with the midsize & milage difference, the resale will be higher than any hybrid, staying in demand. Toyota will soon be the most popular car in the world according to knowlegable sources!! They make many here, & soon the Prius will be made here in the U.S. Look out world. Handles fine, enough power (even for a car lover & recovering speed freak like me), looks great to me. Whatever your age beautiful young & older women/men admire you, ask about your Prius & you get approving looks here & there. (And that's just one week.) ALL my friends are favorably impresssed with the car, which would not be so with any other car. Here's something funny. My bank goof up & stopped my line of credit so my check bounced. I just learned of this today & have driven the car for two weeks, without paying for it! Soon, when I pay for it, I'll ask it/him/her (my red Prius) what "it's" name is, & will get the first response as more than likely as the respected, personal name. A a month ago, I thought I'd buy a VW TDI diesel Passat or Jetta wagon. But after seeing & knowing gas prices are just going up & seeing the spaciousness of the Prius, I was sold. Civic are so normal looking, that no one hardly even knows you're in a hybrid. If the Civic were as good as the Prius, they'd wouldn't have to have so low interest rates. The Prius is THE hottest car out there & I expect will be for a long time. The car is SO sophisticated mechanically, & it all works together so well. Would you expect anyting less from such a highly regarded brand of cars? So forward thinking. I've been waiting 20 plus years for this car with these comcepts, literally. I think it IS the shape to come (in the future), & other cars will soon look old fashion & maybe quaint (like my mom's Ford LTD gas guzzling "boat". I did my research. Hardly anyone could resist this car. That's why it got the Car & Driver car of the year award, just like over in Europe where they had so, SO many writer vote for it. It's a real world winner (for winners), & it won't kill your/the planet's future either. But you got to watch your smug factor, because everything else looks old or doesn't measure up. It's like it's own club. Happy motoring.  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
Sales Tax April 19, 2005 6:53 AM

In Connecticut, there is no sales tax on a hybrid car - it's a wonderful thing! It sounds like the Pruis is different than the civic hybrid in that the split back seat folds down on both sides and is wonderfully roomy. Good luck, let us know what you decide! peace, Stacey  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
More on the Civic April 19, 2005 9:57 AM

Last year I received a $2000 credit on my tax return for my car. The interest rate on my loan is only 2.5% One thing I forgot to mention is while braking the energy is returned to the battery so it recharges... and the gas mileage soars. Last spring my daughter and I went to Kentucky for climbing, hiking, and camping. The car handled crossing the mountains well. When we got to the campground it was after 10 p.m., so we just slept in the car with all our gear. There was enough room for my daughter to sleep on the back seat. I lay the passenger front seat down and slept there. We had some gear in the driver's seat and the floor, but everything else fit nicely into the trunk. Come morning we set up camp.  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
Great topic April 19, 2005 11:13 AM

This truly is a great debate, thanks for bringing up this topic! Stacey  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
 April 19, 2005 7:50 PM

Wow Alan, all I wanted to know...and MORE! Thanks for the insight (again with that pun!). I talked to someone who owns a 2004 Prius tonight and I'm leaning in that direction. Got the hatchback and extra room but since it's a year old, or 1.5 by the time I'm buying, it's be reduced from a brand spankin' new model. I'm think dealer demo or trade in. I'm looking foreword to the test drives. I've owned a '91 Accord (all decked out) and other than electrical problems (A/C, stereo) and breaks it was a great car. Again, thank you all for sharing your experiences!  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
Reply to your response. April 20, 2005 2:06 AM

I get that the used Prius cars are more expensive than they are worth, compared to the new one. Yeah, I guess I'm in the "romantic phase" of this new vehicle. I do write long letters. I only know a cyber club or two for this car. : )  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
Honda or Toyota, look at them up close. April 20, 2005 2:38 AM

With a Prius you get more space as a midsize car, not a compact. Better mileage. A recogniable shape that says "hybrid". Fantastic aerodynamics for highway speeds. A car that is synonomous with the idea & concept of what a hybrid car is all about (it like in the early days when all "SUVs" were called Jeeps!). Support a company that is dedicated to the environment & hybrid technology, & which has the vast majority of the patents for such, & which will be used for the future "fuel cell" technology. The greatest support in getting on the bandwagon early by owning the most success hybrid in it's 3rd generation, not a johnnie-come-lately, psydo hybrid made for power & hybrid "image". A car who's ride is fine, but will even improve more with wider tires, & will look sleeker with tinted glass (dig the radio antenna & dual glove box). A great CRT display of multiple functional items. A car that will be in greater demand with great resale value. A car that will look new longer, fitting into what car will become to look like (ie. functional). A car that your Hollywood friends will appreciate because they have the same one! But they're both good. One is just better as most people see them.  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
used April 20, 2005 4:14 AM

There are no used Prius's available here - if one come in, it goes right out and they are selling them for about $5000 more than the price of a new one, since you can just drive away with it (I had to wait 4 months for mine). I don't think the dealers are using them as demo's, not here anyway. Just FYI - - - peace, Stacey  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
 April 20, 2005 5:12 PM

The lack of demo was my thought. Although things may be a bit different north of the boarder. To be honest right now I'm leaning Prius (extra space, better milage, hatch back) although the inability to find one slightly used and therefore cheaper may be the deciding factor.  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
Both good cars April 23, 2005 12:09 PM

I've put about 51000 miles on my 2003 Civic Hybrid. From home base in Oklahoma I've been to both coasts a couple of times. If I was buying a new one today I'd go with the Prius. Not that there is anything wrong with the Honda, but I think the Prius is ahead in technology right now. Maybe next year that will change. I get about 54 mpg at 70 mph - in no wind. A strong headwind (yes, this is Oklahoma) will drop it to 45 mpg, the same tailwind will yield 65 or 70 mpg. Each mile above 70 miles per hour costs about one mpg. Best economy is slower than I want to drive. At $2.00 a gallon plus, the economy of the hybrid is great. I get a kick driving down the highway and guessing what those muscle pickup trucks are burning. Biggest problem is when you drive a different car and it DOESN'T shut down at the stop light!  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
Got my Prius in about only one week, & lovin it! April 25, 2005 2:20 AM

To save money by not paying the Dealor Handling Fee (aka. dealor prep., etc.), I went to an Auto Broker (see yellow pages). And after calling EVERYONE enough, I got noticed & a credit union got the color & package 4 like I asked for. And they drove it 40 minutes to hand deliver it to me. Hint: pay attention to driver's visiblity. This car will be able to pluy into the grid possibly this year & with solar cells it may even lower you electric bills. As such you would not even have to use your gas engine at all (for about 40 or 60 miles). (there's even a free electrical outlet, I believe, for electric cars here in Colorado) Hybrid/Prius interests on the web may be shaping government & car manufactor decisions & informing them to new technological possiblities.  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
Civic vs. Prius April 30, 2005 6:51 AM

When I was looking for my last vehicle, I test drove a 2004 Prius and a 2004 Honda Inspire. The Inspire wouldn't get out of its own way, so that was out, and no hybrid Civics were available for a test drive. Too bad, as I understand from several friends that it's a lot of fun to drive. I loved the way the Prius drove, but I had one major problem with it - the LCD screen. No doubt this wouldn't be a problem in Canada or the northern U.S., but I'm from L.A. and currently live in Florida, and sunlight can be deadly to LCD screens. The screen was quite visible on the moderately bright day I took my test drive, but I can't help but believe that this will be a high-mortality part in the Sunbelt.  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
 April 30, 2005 7:42 AM

I have owned my Prius for two years, one reason the used are selling higher than they maybe worth is good old supply and demand. Here, there is a 6 month waiting list for a new one, with gas prices going up and up people are looking everywhere how to save money on gas. I get approached all the time by people not just asking how it drives etc, but actually people have come up making offers to buy! and it's not for sale! I like my Prius, it has good get-up-and-go, I am averaging 46 mpg this week. Toyotas have always been known to last a long time. So when buying a hybid, I went with Toyota.  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
Question about Toyota reliability April 30, 2005 2:34 PM

If you call the Toyota corporate office (800 go Toyota), I'd think they would honestly tell you about the LCD screen's reliability. Could it be that a sun shade/hood is NOT necessary. Toyota corportate office told me that the cars have NO problem with the LCD, never. The 3rd generation Prius has been out for two years now. The 2nd since about 2000. And the 1st generation was in Japan in 1997, all without any problem. So it has been throughly tested in real life use, just 5 years new/old to us here in our country. I personally think that reliability concerns are more appropriate for European & American vehicle. This is widespread knowledge & is nothing new. European vehicle are the worse for reliability overall. American vehicle, which by the way often use foreign parts & often made outside of the U.S., are not so reliable either (but are improving in some models). Japanese cars are ofen made in the U.S.A & are even sometimes designed here by Americans. Being such a large market, their cars are made with Americans in mind. But a lot of great vehicle never get sent here. It makes me think that like with cell phones, America is a third world country. :( I other countries there's a button (on the dash) to run on only the electric motor. :( I'll say it again. I got my Red package 4 in only one week.  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
Ford May 12, 2005 5:58 PM

I thought Ford was coming out with a hybrid Explorer? It would be a great thing because they have more room. People who have a few kids need a larger car. I am waiting to see when the hybrid minivans come out. It's only a matter of time. Cindy  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
 May 12, 2005 8:34 PM

They are Cindy, or has as I believe it's on the market now. Or will be very shortly. If space is a must a hybrid SUV is a must, hybrid is certainly the way to go. But with milage in the low 30s, getting a non-hybrid small car would still be more fuel efficient. ******************************************************************** ~~~ Hybrid Cars Newsletter: Issue No. 0015 ~~~ UPDATES What's Selling? A trickle of Lexus Rx400h SUV hybrids arrived in showrooms in the past few weeks. Dealers are calling in the 12,000 "pre-sale" customers, who after putting money down on the idea of a Lexus hybrid are now seeing the actual goods. April sales of the RX 400h tallied 2,345 units. Nobody knows yet how many of the remaining pre-sales will turn into real sales. If the pre-buyers balk at the $53,000 price tag, enterprising shoppers eager to jump on the hybrid bandwagon may have that chance. The Toyota Highlander will join the Rx400h in showrooms this summer, as will the Mercury Mariner SUV Hybrid late in the year, to round out the year’s full lineup of four SUV hybrids. Prius sales climbed to a record 11,345 units in April, keeping the waiting lists going in many part of the country, while Honda and Ford dealers are more aggressively trying to move their inventories of Accords, Civics, Insights, and Escapes. Hyundai upped their release date of not one, but two, subcompact hybrids for the end of 2006, right about the time that the full hybrid version of the GM pickup arrives on the scene. The wee subcompacts and the full-sized pickups will serve as the bookends to the hybrid lineup, leaving the minivan market as the only gap. Nobody knows which carmaker will jump first to meet the needs of environmentally conscious soccer moms  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
 May 14, 2005 10:47 PM

Cindy, Ford has the hybrid Escape (I think they are cool!) I was parked between two Prius hybrids at our co-op and one belonged to a guy I know and we were looking at how it is almost as long as my mercury sable wagon! Right now, we have two vehicles and neither one is worth much. Only paid $2000 for my car, so I cannot afford one (even if we went to one vehicle which we have thought about). But, Prius is the one I would buy (plus, I love hatchbacks!) I understand the look being an issue, but I've always disliked the boxier cars like the accords and prefer the more rounded look. I think it is good that there is more than one hybrid out there and that more are being made. I am still furious with ford for dropping the electric ranger (that would have been so cool! Some people have trucks because they need to haul stuff around and they would love to have something with better gas mileage. It wouldn't be as good as a car but still better than conventional, yk?  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
 May 15, 2005 12:03 AM

Not all hybrids are the same. Some just seem like a sales gimick to me - part of the bandwagon of the future. It's hard for me to believe that a toyota employee would not know that the Prius turns off at stop signs for gas & emission concerns. The Honda Accord is even faster as a hybrid than the normal gas Accord. It's designed maybe for sales, like other corporate decisions. I get that after here the President, the Toyota philosophy is compatible & in line with us here at care2 concerned about the future, the environment & sustainability. The Prius is unique in that it solely is essentially an electric car first, & then uses a small (which makes it effiecient) engine. It's got room for camping gear, luggage, a bike (inside!), & (or) sleeping in it's fastback design. Do you know of a time when Toyota made a bad car? They have their reputation to consider & have done their homework on this car. It's a THIRD generation car (2nd in USA). I consider the accelleration to be fine, yet the engine compartment is simply amazingly tiny, & it seats five as a mid-size car. The shape & hybrid design IS the future (until fuel cell cars come out or whatever that will be the necessity. Boulder, CO. (where I live) is a hybrid kind of town. It makes me think I'm living in the right place (for me) when I look around the large parking lots of Boulder Unity (ie. Church) here, & see so many of the Priuses. It's like a friendly car club (& includes the minister). They get better mileage than my motorcycles did & virtually do NOT pollute. With package 4 you get the Smart Key & anti-skid. With it you do NOT even put the key in the lock or the ignition & it opens & starts automatically knowing you're good to GO!!!  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
Have a Civic, but want a Prius May 19, 2005 5:27 AM

Hey. What a great question. I own a Civic Hybrid, and I love it, totally. But I have to admit if I were to buy one or the other right now, I'd probably go for a Prius. My husband is going to trade in his Saturn Ion for a Prius as soon as we can afford to, and I think that's a great move. So we'll be a HYBRID hybrid family! Toyota and Honda! You can't go wrong with either one, but I definitely would get a Prius at this point. Ford's coming out with a Camry, guys. What do you think? ~Michelle  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
Consider this. May 20, 2005 1:46 AM

When deciding between a Honda or a Prius, consider the fold down seats that allow a bike, hiking/camping equipment, etc. or the ability to simply take a nap in the Prius, all while getting better milage with a great company, reliability & resale value. Beware of the new car tax sucking to register it. It cost me $2300 -ouch, & that's in a Repbulican (marginally) state, who are "thought" to be known as for small government & less taxes. OH YEAH, RIGHT! LEGAL TERRORISM it is. As it says in the 60's newspaper cartoon, "We have found the enemy, & it is US!"  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
 May 21, 2005 6:12 PM

Oregon also has no sales tax. I discovered some time ago that you can often avoid the waiting list on the Prius by showing up when the truck delivers the current shipment every 3 weeks or so here. There are usually 1-3 available from cancelled orders. When my Previa was totalled, I checked out both the Civic and Prius, and discovered that the Civic Hybrid has a '8' on the pollution index, worse than the average of a '7', which did not begin to compare to the '2' that the Prius has. As this was a primary consideration for me, I went with the Prius. I suspect that this problem will be aleviated when Oregon changes its pollution standards to match California's. I am delighted with my pearl red Prius... ;-)  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
anonymous Prius, a super clean "green" machine May 22, 2005 12:11 AM

I was surprised to find the Prius only a 2 & not a 1, since it puts out only 1/10 what a normal car would. I some states such as California a single driver can drive alone in the HOV lane, as should be the case in all states. I'm calling up the Governor Advocate's Office next week about this. And it so much more easier to put my bike in the back than my Jeep Grand Cherokee.  [report anonymous abuse]  [ accepted]
space in prius May 31, 2005 2:05 PM

Me and my husband are looking, and we both think we would love the prius. Only problem is the space: my husband is very tall and big (consider football player size) and needs a lot of room in the driver's seat. Unfortunately is really hard to find a prius to test drive around here (unless you know of a place in CT?) Could anyone tell me about the driver's seat of the prius - space for legs/ does the wheel move up and down/ does the seat move up and down etc? THANK YOU!  [ send green star]  [ accepted]
anonymous Spacious for a bike, camping equipment, &/or 5 people.... June 03, 2005 1:11 AM

although heavy loads is not the Prius forte. Headroom 39.1"; shoulder room 55.3"'hip room 51"; leg room 41.9"; passenger volume 96.2 cu.ft. Have you tried your local Toyota dealer to check out the Prius? You can get straight answers at 1-800-GO-TOYOTA for whatever. The seat moves back. Feels spacious to me. Ever consider aftermarket seats? Remember, it's the most popular car & there is a "long" waiting list. Some get theirs in several months, but I got mine in a week with persistence. For those in the know about hybrids & do not insist on a large SUV, Prius is IT - no option. There's a lot of people activly working to get hybrids out there (including the Pentagon's recommendation!) & especially the Prius. What is needed is an optional plug-in that is coming shortly (, & will not void the warrantee (of the Prius). Photovoltaic solar collector cells on top of these cars could PUT BACK electric energy into the power grid & would be most useful during black-outs. Heck, where I live the city even supplies free electricity for electric cars! That's progressive! Note; Honda's hybrids are not "full hybrids", & they are not able to shut down the gas engine while "running" around or stopped. Toyota has most all of the hybrid patents because they really are dedicated to lower energy consumption, less pollution, & the environment like no one else, ie. third (world) generation full hybrid technology is leaving everyone else in the DUST. Expect GM to demand your tax dollars or they will totally go out of business & take away American jobs (that aren't overseas already!). And they are the most resistant to hybrids/etc.  [report anonymous abuse]  [ accepted]
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