I agree with you...

To me doens't make sence when someone shows a opinion and just because to someone else doesn't make sence this person is attacked..

I'll repeat what I have said some days ago... "I believe that we can agree or desagree about things which happens on our world. If anyone of this things just doesn´t make sence to you ...it's your rigth dicede boycott or not..."

But... to agree ou not... don't make anybody better or worst than other... Each one has different reasons, and I'm not undertanding why just we can't discuss our diferent oppions... Discuss is helth and we can get a common sense...

Well, if someone became offendend, sorry... It wasn´t my intention.

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 [ accepted]

If you feel so strongly about it, sign the petition.

All boycotts should be open for discussion. There is already a boycotts group for people who are opposed to discussing boycotts. That is the reason why this group was started. Now there are two groups for people who are opposed to discussing boycotts. Perhaps they should try talking to each other....

Thanks for your input Sol. It is always disappointing when people respond like that. My father has a theory that once people have spent three generations off the land there is no hope for them because they loose all knowledge of nature. I thought it sounded a bit crazy because these things are so obvious, but I can see now he is right. So we end up with crazy situations like this with Californians eating feedlot beef and tortured baby cows but banning free range Kangaroo meat.

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Hi y'all,

I'm new to the group, but just from reading the posts, I have a feeling I'm on the unpopular side of the debate.  I'll throw in my 2 cents anyway. 

 It seems like people aren't really arguing about the petition, but the fact that Freediver, a member of Care2, has an opinion that varies from the traditional care2 view.  I hate to say it (bc my brother uses this line on me way too often) but it's the nature of things.  I don't believe in hunt-clubs, farms, or killing for an all-around chuckle, but I do believe that it's a whole lot better to shoot these roos and use them for nourishment rather than watch as they pretty much starve themselves to death.  I don't think they should call out open season, though, and it is scary to think that that could develop...which no doubt would be an even bigger problem.

Regardless of what you believe, I don't think it's too healthy to damn your opponent.  I was pretty surprised to look on Freediver's profile and see a couple of testimonies saying that he doesn't belong in Care2. 

If it sounds like I'm siding with Freediver, sorry dude, you're wrong.  I'm not going to sign the petition bc I don't know enough about it and it kind of scares me to think of what it could develop into. 

I am saying that if any kind of conservation movement is going to work, it's going to have to be approached by several different angles, Freediver's take is valid, I believe.

So that's that.  I can't say, though I'd eat any roo meat.  I know one animal is as valid as another, if you're going to eat one, be prepared to eat them all, but yowza.  I don't think I've ever even seen a roo...down here in the south we pretty much stay with the chickens, pigs, and seafood (which has been giving me strange dreams lately....)

Anyway, hi again   nice to meet y'all  

Ellen

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I have NO idea why he would call it hunting ferals, as it's not petition  for hunting ferals, it's for the importation and sale of kangaroo meat in California. The hunting of kangaroos for meat completely legal in Australia so *that* is not the issue.  That has been established in this discussion obviously.

So why the  misleadingly erroneous petition title and the decision to advertise it in an anti-hunting group?  I can only assume the author did so for the same reason he seems to do most things; to incite people and get attention.  Too bad  everything about this is so obnoxious or I would consider signing it, as I have no problem with the use of kangaroos for leather or meat, as it's far better for Australia's environment than cattle. 

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Yes I sent the email. I got a response asking for a confirmation and I sent that also by emailing to the address given, and I got an acknowledgement of that too. I thought perhaps they took action by changing it from the ferals petition to the kangaroo petition, but I expect they would have notified me if they did this? I'll send another email just in case.

Am I limited to one petition? I could just start another, but I'm worried they'll get switched around again after everyone has signed.

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My concerns about eating feral animals is the potential of diseases being past from the feral animal to humans.  Is this a logical concern?

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John I think we could probably get by with the current population provided we reduce the per capita ecological footprint.

You appear to be arguing that the current population is unsustainable, but that nothing needs to be done to reduce the impact of burning fossil fuels. Is that correct? If you wish to discuss punitive taxes I have raised the issue in several other groups.

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a brief read of article 21 in the convention on bio diversity, which was signed by both oz trail eea and amerika will give you an idea of what your individual, company and government responsibilities to the environment really are.

if you have the time to read this lengthy document, you will also realise that feral anything is noted as one of the major reasons for loss of bio diversity.

we all have a responsibility to remove feral species from our environment, but while we are discussing the pros and cons of how to achieve this target, feral species are increasing, and creating more and more damage to indigenous species worldwide.

it is approaching the era of ppl being accused of crimes against humanity by failing to control feral species rapidly and efficiently.

whats more important to you ? -- poor feral animal getting killed, or sustainable biodiversity for all mankind and nature?

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freediver, i went thru what seemed a total wall of ignorance in 1997 to even find this document, and eventually obtained the only copy the parliamentary library has, from my local mp. -- its fatter than the sydney phone book, and some parts of at are online.

there were mentions in it of ferals, and of the negative effect mainstream religions are having on bio diversity, both being canned severly, with good supporting cause and documentation.

now, as i had to return it yrs ago, i cant quote you pages etc -- i have looked on line for a total index for the document without avail -- i suggest you look in the index, under feral when you locate the document -- its worth a read anyway -- puts a lot of things into perspective.

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There are many states in America where it is practically impossible to build public transportation systems because the land is too spread out. I doubt it would work effeciently anyway. We are too dependant on our motor vehicles for transportation. And in some rural areas there is no public transprortion and the cost of even trying to build one would not be practical.

We don't pay as much for petrol fuels because we are not on the Metric system like Canada and the EU. I know you pay for petrol by the liter, and we pay by the gallon with a federal excise tax of 9/10 of a cent on each gallon. I have no idea how that tax came about or the author of the tax.

It is because of cities and rural areas where it is not practical or affordable to build public transportation.

Our rail systems are not as good as they are in the UE and other countries that depend on them. The distance from the East Coast to the West Coast is approximately 3000 miles apart. And the only railroad system we have is Amtrak. plus the fact that Americans drive larger motor vehicles, and sort of equals what you pay for petrol fuels. We use fossil fuels to heat our homes and many elderly people cannot afford the cost because Social Security does not pay that much to allow any of us to live a decent life style, and with the Bush adminstration cutting back on furture Social Security payments it will put recepients further in poverty and not get them out of poverty.

If Petrol fuel prices were to increase to $3.00 a gallon many people would not be able to afford those prices and would not be able to get to work. As I mentioned public transportation does not go to many cities where we are employed, and our employers don't want to pay for the work we do now, they will certainly not pay for an employee to come to work everyday.

Unfortunatley we have a corrupt incompetent president, and he needs to go before things get better in the states. His private war is costing us a fortune. It has cost over $300 billion so far, and is still rising. If Bush did not go to war the money he's spending could be used to rebuild the infrastructure of the U.S.. It is falling apart, and there is no end in sight to this unjust war in Iraq.

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John I agree with you on the public transport issue.

Can you give a link to the figures on the energy required to manufacture a car?

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the phonebook size document i was talking about has an extremely shortened web version here -- it doesnt have the index -- best to get your local polly to borrow it from the parliamentary library for you

http://www.dhushara.com/book/globio/ass.htm

its worth a look at the web version as well

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 [ accepted]

The specific mechanisms by which the underlying causal factors result in the reduction and loss of populations, the extinction of species and the transformation and degradation of ecological communities include:

• habitat loss, fragmentation and degradation (or the transformation of ecological communities to other uses),
• over-exploitation;
• the introduction of non native species;
• pollution or toxification of the soil, water and atmosphere;
• climate change.

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 [ accepted]

I have started a new group specifically for discussion of the problems associated with feral animals:
http://www.care2.com/c2c/group/feralperil

the ferals petition: 
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/319901459

Thanks you to all those who provided more information.

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  I just read through all of the posts here and read a few things on biodiversity etc... Didnt something similar happen in Austraillia before with rabbits, hence the rabbit proof fence...I think it would be more humane to hunt them and use them for sustenance than to watch them starve...on the same hand here in America it seems this urban sprawl is just ruining our wildlife, its build,build,build and crowd out the animals and cut down more trees, and its all really unnecessary.   I thought of one other solution and that is instead of a killing hunt, have a round-up, find some conservation land and enclose them in, I think eventually they wouldn't thrive off of this land either  unless of course they were all neutered.  Sometimes things need culling, I agree. Maybe the hunt could be done humanely..so,this is where we talk about humane ways to kill...is it better to hit them dead on,one shot and have it done instnatly or maybe hit them with some form of euthansia and have them fall asleep?..or tag them and have them neutered?  No, theres still the overpopulation now.

I'm just throwing things out..perhaps to compromise.

  There is a natural order to things and humans are just as natural as roos.  The world has progressed this way right along...man killed,animals killed, everything went back to the earth in one way or another..the earth can not contain this many roos and have them survive and starvation is cruel....

I'm going to sign the petition..now what to do about the feral humans....sorry,kidding!

  Its also my opinion that americans need to stop manufacturing and purchasing such large vehicles...hello why does the average person need  these monsterous suvs and what have you?  I think perhaps smaller more efficent vehicles would help but,again at times it seems its always about more,more,more here. Yuck!  Annmarie

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Maybe this article will help explain the reason public transportation isn't going anywhere in the US. It isn't the auto industry, it's our fedral government as you will see by this article. Bush is supporting vegetable oil as an altenative fuel for diesel burning vehicles. He might even fund a program to convert more diesel cars and trucks to run on used vegetable oil. This is not new. It has been being used for years.

Amendment to Highway Bill Targets Public Transit, Environment

An amendment to the federal transportation bill, SAFETEA, to be introduced today by Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-AL) will eradicate $11 billion from public transit funding, public health, community development, and environmental programs.

Prior to Sessions' proposal, the Senate had proposed a total of $295 billion for the overall bill. But the Bush Administration has insisted it will veto any bill that exceeds $284 billion.

Critics contend that the Sessions amendment targets funding for some of the most successful, badly needed programs for the sake of White House approval of the overall cost.

"This amendment is really about telling Senators they can get a $295 billion highway bill at the $284 billion price tag requested by the President," said Colin F. Peppard, Transportation Policy Coordinator for Friends of the Earth. "Unfortunately, the $11 billion difference comes at the expense of our most popular and effective transportation programs."

Rather than receiving the necessary funding from the federal government, Peppard asserts that the Sessions amendment "pushes the costs of these programs onto states as unfunded mandates that will leave our air dirty, our roads congested, and our transit stalled in its tracks." Among the programs being cut:

• A $4 billion cut from Congestion Mitigation and Air Quality (CMAQ) initiatives that are meant to reduce traffic and pollution while ensuring mobility, forcing ill-equipped local municipalities to cover the cost of Clean Air Act compliance.

• A $5 billion cut from formula grants and research for public transit. These studies are geared toward enhancing security, planning, capital improvement, facility maintenance, and operating expenses.

• A $1.1 billion cut from Surface Transportation Enhancement activities, one of the most popular programs. It funds historic preservation, community development, and water pollution mitigation.

• A $100 million cut in transportation and community and system preservation programs (TCSP), which aim to improve synergy between transportation, community, and system development.

• A $100 million cut to the Transportation and Finance Innovation Act, which provides federal credit assistance to major transportation investments of national importance.

###  [ send green star]  [ accepted]

Annmarie a big issue which people often forget is cost and the limited resources (often none) available for eradicating feral animals. There is also a limit to the amount of land set aside for conservation, and swamping it with feral animals would destroy it and defeat the purpose of having the land set aside. But maybe one day we'll come up with a better solution that works. Unfortunately the most successful method is biological control - ie disease. Which can go wrong. A lot of our feral animals were brought in as a biological control for other introduced pests.

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Freediver,

 I understand this too, I know its tough to balance everything.  Clearly something has to be done before things get severly out of control and there is no means of helping the land or the kangaroos.  I was named after my mothers friend who moved to Australia and ran a Roo farm...I never tried to eat one and I dont believe I've ever seen one in person.  I signed the petition and hopefully the situation will become managable and harmonious again. If I had the room,I'd take some of them but, I doubt they would thrive in New England and there is that disease issue.  I'm a big animal lover and part of me thinks of thier cuteness and what they must be thinking  before they are killed(I know this is girlie and no one wants to hear this here, just my thoughts) but, seriously the land cant adequately support them and disease isnt going to help anyone or anything, it has to be got back under control. Perhaps the meat could go to Africa to help feed the hungry there, as a donation instead of to California..I think the really hungry will appreciate it more instead of making it a delicacy as oppossed to hamburg here in the states. 

That fuel issue keeps coming up....moderation and balance in everything folks...how about toning down the size of these cars..oh my goodness we could..just house the kangaroos in these suvs and still have room to spare!  Thanks Annmarie

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I have cut back on my meat consumption too, but I doubt I could get by without it.

Thanks Lowell and Annmarie for signing. If you are a vegetarian please say so when you sign - I included a question so you can add comments. I want to get accross that this is not a vegetarian vs meat eaters issue, but an environmental issue. The more vegetarians I get signing it the better.

Also, the roo meat one is a different issue to the feral animals one.

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Im gonna stick to the one Carolyn mentioned....

All you are feral shall we hunt you down & stick a bullet thru your head!!

Where are you from ? who brought you to your current land?

Roos in Oz are starving to death thru farming & irrigation, how many road kills can you count just on the west coast open you eyes dont you think that is enough punishment from humans...

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Well, I am a not a vegetarian - over here they breed ostriches and - sorry, it is delicious! They also sell kangaroo meat...I can agree on that if they breed them like cows or pigs or whatever...Well, that is my opinion on that. Just hunting them down to reduce the number is crazy I agree on that....

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Your sure know howTo fire them up. I get a kick out of reading how everyone gets off on tangents and the subject changes and people start seeming to hate each other and judging each other.

So many people have such big hearts when it comes to the critters. And so many people that are so far beyond the life of the 'one'.

Always, a good read. Mostly I read when they start out attacking you. Sorry, they just seem to be the most fun. Just thought I otta say hi.

I'm driving my SUV (steam engine to be sure) to the forest tonight to count spotted owls and having a raccoon burger (road kill, I swear). LOL

Thanks Free!

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 [ accepted]

Perhaps it's time I brought out the code of conduct. Remember I want this group to be a supportive atmosphere. I don't want to have to start deleting posts again.

http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc_conduct.html

All members of our site must agree to and abide by the following Code of Conduct for our boards:

Respect and courtesy - All Care2 Members are entitled to express their views and beliefs in a safe environment without feeling attacked. Members may not infringe on the rights of any other person to express themselves in a safe environment. This policy includes:

Any harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, hateful, or otherwise objectionable posts.

Any posts which are invasive of another's privacy.
Name calling or otherwise attacking the person posting rather than the content of the post. Disagreement is encouraged, but you should only comment on the argument or position taken, never against the person posting their opinion or belief.

Any racial or ethnic slurs or insults relating to the mental, physical or intellectual qualities of any member.

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The kangaroo harvest happens in a different part of the country to where most of the bushfires were. I don't think Adidas is the driving force behind it. They are harvested for their meat. The assurances of our government are not weak. The chances of seeing roos are very strong. There are more kangaroos here than when Europeans first arrived. They are everywhere. The harvest is sustainable. The hunters usually take less than what they are licenced to take. You appear to agree that the industry would be at risk.

Fact: Californians eat tortured baby cows and feedlot beef. Yet for some strange reason they think free range meat is cruel.

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was the warning for me?

I would simply conduct myself how I would as if we were discussing this in person,you opinion is vaild to you,  I am expressing it is not to me, that is acceptable isnt it? Altho I can see your thought process to come to your beliefs. I respect that we are different in our outlooks. I am totally used to discussing issues with the most diverse of views. people who feel they have the right to take lives kinda bug me...if its to eat themselves then thats substaining you & yours but mindless killing for factory or farming,sport,import/export of animals or environmental reasons to me seems very negative & that the person isnt seeing the bigger picture. I was simply saying I feel you or whoever kills this way is not helping matters it was not ment to be a personal attack.

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and like I said we are intitled to our opinions...but swopping one death for another I dont understand! They are native, why not ban cow & sheep farming? surely that makes more sense?

It's sad that you threaten to delete posts several times..first mine then Elenors. This is a place to speak freely & share information or so I thought! Please think before you do this as many people can gain insight into the otherside of the discussion, thats what we aim to do on care2.

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If you violate the care2 code of conduct, I should delete your post. If you spam this thread by copying in large amounts of text, I will delete that also.

Banning cow meat would make more sense than banning kangaroo meat.

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To continue discussing the kangaroo roo meat petition go here:

http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?gpp=1141&pst=14926

To continue discussing the feral animals petition, please go here:

http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?gpp=4244&pst=126072

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"Please think before you do this as many people can gain insight into the otherside of the discussion, thats what we aim to do on care2."

Ecomamma I encouraged her to post links to the information instead of copying it all in here, which is unreasonable. I want the information to be available to those who are interested just as much as you do.

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"Animals are my friends and I don't eat my friends."

-- George Bernard Shaw

The Meatrix

http://www.themeatrix.com

Store Wars

http://www.storewars.org/flash/index.html

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

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 [ accepted]

i luv this thread! glad to see that Christy P. has expressed my thoughts and feelings about this thread already!

i'm vegetarian but i make it a point to buy free range animal products for family and friends who r not vegetarian in the hope that they'd switch to these rather than consuming and encouraging cruel farming.. i wont eat meat.. while some ppl just cant live without having meat at least once a day. for these ppl, i'd like them to eat meat that did not come from a cow that have never strolled around to graze or a chicken that has never seen daylight!

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 [ accepted]

      I do not believe in killing, ANYTHING...We are above this.

         Besides, it is unnatural for us to consume meat to begin with. Our digestive track is akin to a GORILLA 

      We are not wolves, or lions...Look at yourself in the mirror! You are a frail looking ape, and Apes are vegetarian by NATURE. They are Gentle creatures. We should all be Vegetarian by strong example.

        Our digestive track is very long, so is the ape's, and identical to ours.. It is not short, or as acidic, as the meat eating mammals. That is why so many have bowel cancer now. And other horrors. Society is very sick, and it is because of meat consumption, and the consumption of other unnatural products. This sickness is also destroying nature, as we consume our environment.

   This entire petition should not be an issue. YOU SHOULD NOT BE EATING MEAT TO BEGIN WITH.

    As far as feral animals... I take care of a feral cat, and we are both working towards his domestication. Other people, who have done this have had success. I really would not want some idiot shooting my feral cat, he has a name. BACH. Feral cats are just homeless cats. Friends in need.

Well, that is all I have to say,

Cora  

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 [ accepted]

You want to shoot animals because of an overpopulation problem. A problem that wouldn't be a problem if WE  didn't screw up the eco-system by plowing through the land for farming....

Well, Humans have overpopulated the earth... And are offsetting the balance.

Perhaps you are shooting at the wrong culprit?

Cora

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One more thing...(I Think)

       There are humans starving on the planet, would it be "Merciful" to just shoot them? Or do you believe there could be a more humane solution?

Let me know what you think.

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 [ accepted]

Or any other meat.

As I said, It is unhealthy, and creating problems.

Done now

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 [ accepted]

are we still boycotting Freediver's boycott?

Hi all!

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in thailand, it is customary for people to eat puppies and make them into all kinds of dish - soup, stew, etc.

yes, you heard me - Puppies!!!

now. If this petition gets approved, what are the chances that people who want this kind of meat to be allowed in California? If Freediver gets his way in making Roo meat available in CA, then the chances of Thai people in America wanting no restriction on sale and cooking of puppy meat will increase also.

NO ROO MEAT!!!

NO ROO MEAT!!!

NO ROO MEAT!!!

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 [ accepted]

The feral animals issue isn't an overpopulation issue. It is a biodiversity issue. It's about extinction. The UN has identified introduced species as being just as important as habitat loss (screwing up the land) in causing loss of biodiversity in many places. Eating wild kangaroo would help us cut back on cattle farming.

Meat is a natural part of our diet, just not as much as most westerners eat.

Eating puppies is fine - it's just where they come from that would bother most Americans and cause a lot of problems. Although PETA has apparently started killing unwanted pets too like most shelters. There's another potential food source being wasted.

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    Meat is not a natural part of our diet we are apes. I know we would all like to believe otherwise, that we are "so much more," but that is what we are. (I take it as a compliment.) Our digestive tracts are the same as Apes, and they are gentle vegetarians. Not meat eaters. It is unnatural for them to eat meat, as it is for us to eat meat.

    Please, look at any, "Natural," carnivore, they will have a very different digestive track than us apes. More acidic, and shorter intestines, and so fourth. There is a major difference if you do your research...

NO ROO MEAT!

NO ROO MEAT!

NO ROO MEAT!

Cora

One more thing...

      The roo problem is mans problem. I believe we created it. Like all the other problems on this planet it would not exist if it weren't for us dysfunctional apes The imbalance is ours, not theirs. The roos should not be shot because we messed up. It is unfair. Would you like to be sentenced to death for somebody elses mistake? It would not make sense.

      *I beleive if people really put their minds to it they could curb this through mass sterilization...Not just some half fast effort, but a real labor of love. It would be an ungoing battle, not something that can be fixed overnight, but wouldn't it be rewarding?

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 [ accepted]

Yes, meat is a natural part of our diet. We are omnivours. Our teeth and digestive tract are slightly different because we have been cooking our food for so long.

There is no roo problem. We have a cow problem.

No that wouldn't be rewarding.

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seeing you are so informed about the meat eating habits and needs of various mammals, can you inform the post what the is the enzyme that is only found in red meat that is necessary for complete human digestion?

and i have always wanted to know why gorillas sometimes kill and eat other primates?

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 [ accepted]

Horseradish!

    Borish, there is a natural alternative to the enzyme you are speaking of, otherwise there would not be many, MANY, healthy vegans/vegetarians/raw foodist out there. They are not taking any meat enzymes....I surely dont' , and all of my bloodtest are more than healthy. Explain that?!

          As far as our teeth being slight different, Freediver, you mean that puny little pointed incisor of ours? Have you taken a look at Gorillas teeth? Ohmy, they have quite the incisor two...great for tearing into fruit....that is primarily what they eat.

Now back to Borish, Gorillas occasionally kill and eat each other. IT is rare, but yes it happens...Some humans have been known to do this as well, does that mean we should all practice this? Cannibalism?

No. I should hope not...

Cora!

NO ROO MEAT! NO ROO MEAT! NO ROO MEAT!

(or cannibalism...)

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Boris,

 If we needed that enzyme as badly as you have concluded," in order to digest our food," wouldn't vegetarians/vegans/raw foodist be starving of malnutrition by now? I think so...

    My Aunt has been a vegetarian her entire life, and she could probably run circles around any carnivore within miles...

(Excuse typos-just woke up, sipping my tea)

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well, love the stuff, but in all reality, it is one of those vegetables that has almost been made extinct by monsanto and friends -- i havent been able to locate any here for 5-6 yrs [seed, nor fresh root]-- hope the vegetarians dont need mega doses of it lol

so i was correct -- you actually know something about this stuff -- whats the enzime and where do you get it, for the interests of the participants in this thread --

btw -- i had to clean up the remains of an endangered squirrel glider today -- the remains are in the freezer, and will go to the museum --who said brushtail possums were leaf eaters?

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 [ accepted]

and as far as roos are concerned, they are a bio diversity issue, not an animal liberationist issue, nor a meat issue.

if humans want to consume the waste they propagate,[roo culling etc] that is their concern, and may actually be good for the environment.

i am about to do a research trip to the opal fields in northern nsw, to assess the population of a recently identified orchid species endemic to a 2 sq mile area in the mining fields.

this population had recovered since stock [sheep and cattle] were removed from the leases, and is now being eaten by kangaroos.

the species is known -- pterostylis, greenhood orchid, but the variety is reduced to a population of less than 100 known plants at the last count.

reports from the fields indicate roo damage is extrene to native vegetation.

i will post my report when i return middle next month.

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 [ accepted]

"if humans want to consume the waste they propagate,[roo culling etc] that is their concern, and may actually be good for the environment."   BORIS

   You are refering to animals that are still living, and breathing that haven't yet been slaughtered...You are addressing other souls, as mere waste...That is sad.

    case closed.

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 [ accepted]

i will not post the data i have on analisis of wild rabbit scat in the interests of decency, but i assure you, if you find rabbit scat in the wild, and send it off for analisis, like i do, you might be amazed at the dietary extremes of your fluffy pet when it becomes feral.

 and no, i am referring in the animals that are dead, and left to rot in the bush, or utilised to stop the utilisation of some chemical constructed alternative.

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 [ accepted]

(As far as roos go, I beleive since we created the imbalance, we should do them one justice and sterilize them...not just erradicate them, or have an organized mass killing. It is not their fault they have become an enviromental hazard.)

PLANT EATERS

-perspires through millions of pores on skin

-no sharp, pointed front teeth

-has flat, back molar teeth to grind food

-well-developed salivary glands, needed to pre-digest grains and fruits

-alkaline saliva; much ptyalin to pre-digest grains

-stomach acid 20 times weaker than that of meat-eaters

-intestinal tract several times body length (plant foods decay slowly so can take their time to pass through the body

NOW TYPING PART 3, HUMAN BEINGS.

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HARES ARE INDIGENOUS TO THIS COUNTRY.

    And I am aware of scat problems. But, are you really into eating excrement..? In the united states there are only a few cases of round worm cases/from raccoons a year...and it is mainly acquired by actual consumption... and most victims are young babies, who should've been supervised, and imbeciles.

Now what parasiticl infection are you refering to regarding rabbits?

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Wait a minute...I couldn't believe it. Are you saying rabbits actually eat other animals, and so fourth when faced with starvation? Incredible.

Well, we have done similiar things....recall those stranded plane crash victims, who ate each other. So Gross.

I am sure anyone who is starving will stoop to lows.

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HUMAN BEINGS:

-No claws

-perspires through millions of pores on the skin

-no sharp pointed front teeth

-has flat, back molar teeth to grind food.

-well developed salivary glands, needed to predigest grains and fruit

-alkaline saliva, much ptyalin to pre-digest grains

-Stomach acid 20 times weaker...than that of natural meat eaters

-Intestinal track several times body weight...

(Still thinking about carnivorous bunny rabbits, what a horror. Poor things. I could not believe waht I was reading.Is there any other data on this other than what you have documented? And, were the rabbits affirmed?)

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    No, domestic breeds of feral rabbits are not a problem in Canada. At least not as long as we have a healthy coyote population. Although... I did see a little black and white dutch bunny in the woods once, it was quite unexpected. (I love rabbits.) I tried to catch him, but you know how that went. LOL.

Not too many people can outrun a rabbit.

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Lady, I'm not sure where you get your definitions from, but a meat eater is an animal that eats meat. I can think of plenty of carnivors and omnivours that fail your definition of a meat eater.

Humans can only live on a vegetarian diet in a few rare natural settings. I am not familiar with any group of humans living in a natural setting that are vegetarian.

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Hi there everyone. With due respect to everyone here, I'd just like to say something.

Freediver, I understand your reasons, completely. I am a vegan for the reason that I disagree with large scale agribusiness that pollute the environment and also against factory farming of animals, not because it is cruel to eat animals. TRibes that sustain themselves through hunting of animals do less damage to the environment than a vegan does when eating chemical rich products (not to mention soya products). To protect biodiversityand thus the environment sometimes it is neccessary to control a populatin of species, particularly invader species. This doesnt make me an evil person or does not mean to say that I advocate the manipulation and ill treatment of animals. A dream would for all humans to sustain themselvreswhile protecting the environment.

To others against Freediver, I think you should begin to show a little more respect: "Respect those that you are against, for your qualities will be known amongst your enemies"

Inorder to make changes and make a postive difference I believe we must respect and try to understand those we fight against after all aggression doesnt get you anywhere.

I hope no one takes offence here, for that is not my intention. With respect to you all!

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***I was not showing any disrespect...As suggested. I was just putting my opinion on the table.

     But, I will say this, I can argue this issue for all eternity and will never agree with freediver, or "Freediver Followers" hehehe, has a certain ring to it, doesn't it? Freediver Followers..

(No insult ,Free...it just sounded catchy.)

    Well, I do wish you the best, but most of all I wish you compassion, and love for all living things... And a heart that can embrace every life as meaningful.

        And I will leave my main request at your feet...

IT IS UNFAIR TO DESTROY THOSE ANIMALS, THEY ARE LIVING BEINGS....MASS STERILIZATION, NOT A HALF FAST EFFORT, WOULD ERRADICATE THIS PROBLEM IN A VERY HUMANE, AND REWARDING WAY.

Love & Light,

  Cora

I WASH MY HANDS OF THIS THREAD...

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Being an extreme animal rights activist will not benefit the future for the earth and her inhabitants.....

Freediver, I agree with you although I am an animal rights activist. Understanding the views of others and gathering information from all sides is the way forward and the way to educate others. Realising the reality and taking practical and realistic action is what must be done to solve the relentless problems that arise. Being too one sided will get things nowhere.

I say one last thing......learn from Freediver instead of being too set in your own views and ways. Freediver cares just as much as we all do in care2 and I am sure we can learn alot from him......open your eyes and see the wider picture.

With much respect and peace,

Dana

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Thanks Dana.

Lady I agree that it is unfair, but that shouldn't stop us doing what is right. We can't even afford a half arsed effort so sterilisation programs are not an option. More animals are likely to escape that way, plus you are still releasing feral animals into the wild for no good reason.

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      As I said, I was being respectful.

       But your idea of respect is agreeing. (So step down off your high horse "whoever you are" who just jumped in- Because I do not need to be lectured, or told I am being "disrespectful" and so fourth, when I was only discussing my opposing veiws. ***If you want disrespect, write me with that condenscending attitude and I will give you a full blown demonstration in private.)

  Now, stop addressing me, because it is redundant, and this will only go on indefinately...Can we agree to disagree? I will never follow program. AS I said, I wash my hands of this thread... I am done here. Convince somebody else.

Sincerely,

Cora

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And Freediver, in closing....

     I know you mean well but this is pointless, so I am agreeing to disagree. I wish you the best, but I just hope a less violent approach can be taken, than the slaughter of thousands. Those are living beings you are discussing. They are just as worthy of life as anything else....my opinion. 

Cora

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Freediver,

      You want to justify killing, and I cannot agree with this. It is against my nature. I look at every living thing individually, as I would you, or anyone, or any other living thing. I am sorry if my vision seems narrow to you in that sense. I cannot help it. It is the way I am wired. I just believe in my heart that there is always a solution other than destruction. I pray you find a way, besides what you are proposing.

    If I were to side with you, and what you are saying...Than I would  have to be just, and fair, and say we should slaughter humans. For we are also overpopulated, and we are also harming the enviroment....And we are also a hazard to the ecosystem...Can you see it through my simple reasoning?

     If I seem disrespectful for not agreeing, it is only because I feel life is being disrespected. I am passionate about this. If that makes me a fanatical activist, than so be it. I am guilty as charged.

      Freediver, you have handled our disagreement with eloquence, and dignity, but I still cannot agree. I may never agree. How long do you wish to continue?

     Sincerely,

     Cora Lynn

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(So you know I know what you are talking about...)

     I do not beleive in killing roos, moos, or anything else.

For whatever reason.

That is the bottom line. And this was all I was trying to say.  

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Lady, I did not suggest that you need to agree with me, merely that you should paraphrase my basic argument so that I know you understand it. You appear to concede the possiblity that I am right within a certain set of values, but that doesn't mean you understand what I wrote in the way I intended.

Yes humans do cause more damage than feral animals, and from certain perspectives it would be fairer to kill them. But fairness isn't really a part of this. I am talking about what works. Killing people would lead to greater environmental harm. Killing feral animals improves the environment, in terms of biodiversity.

In your last post, you repeated your argument, not mine. That does not convince me that you understand me. That could be an internally consistent counterargument to what I am saying, but what I have been saying should be sufficient to make your philosophy seem insufficient. That being said, I would be prepared to let this rest if I thought you understood me.

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       You think that by killing the kangaroo for meat, and importing it to California, that it is going to fix your problem with farmland/Bovine...It isn't you know. Roo meat will be just as popular as ostrich... It will never fly. And should it, it will eventually be raised on farms, when you wiped them out of their natural habitat, and you will be faced with the same problems again with new names.

Now I have to go write my Goodbye letters.  

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281 green stars

180 butterflies

You are someone who does make a difference. THere will always be those we can not sway or change. There will always be those we can. I am sure I am not the only one who has been silently watching this thread. Silent, not because I do not have an oppinion, but because I am torn.

     I do not believe that our bodies are designed for vegetarianism. Even gorillas eat insects. I do not believe that our bodies are designed to eat large quantities of meat either though (anyone who thinks we are is ignorant of medical facts). I believe that humans have done the entire planet and all its citizens, plant, animal, and mineral disservice by not following the naturla laws of the world. I also believe that due to the worlds off balance state there are times when population control of some species must be performed to help preserve other species. (And yes I think this applies to humans as well.

      I have two beautiful sons, and would dearly love more children - but I know that if every adult limited themselves to two children our population would shrink. I can't change what others do, but I can make sustainable choices for myself. (This is very hard for my wife to understand as she wants more children too.)

     Cora you have made some great arguments and have swayed my oppinions several times. If you want to leave this thread because there is no more to say, do so. I would be saddened to see you leave this community though . We would be poorer for your absence. Perhaps you will still leave. Perhaps you already have. Regardless I honor you and your warrior spirit.

Namaste

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That is very true....the human race has lost the laws of nature. In society today we have huge extensive cattle farming, factory farmed animals and there is a great division bewtwwen places - those that eat a HUGE amount of food andthose that have nothing whatsoever. There are people who are trying to sustain their living through growing their own vegetables etc and hunting for their family....that is the old ways and these old ways had a balance with the cycles of nature. It saddens me that their is the gruesome sites of factory farming. It will take a lot to change the whole society of the earth. But each and every one of us can help make a difference by doing even the smallest of things.

With peace,

Dana

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    How about I show you the same respect you intend to show the Kangaroos

     Thiis "Respect" issue is so tired... So passe.... I have to agree with you, right? That is your definition of respect? Or compromise my own set of values? Moral, or ethical?

Have you looked up the meaning of the word Respect in the dictionary?

One definition:

    Respect: 1.Consider deserving of high regard.

                 2. Relation to something.

    As for the latter, I cannot relate to you. 

    Now as far as my leaving care 2 I have decided against it. There are people here who have written me and shown support. People who have boycotted your group....(Something I should've done in the first place for it would have spared me a lot of heartache.)

  Anyway, you  are right, You do not represent the face of care 2. 

 The ANIMALS do, (Nature) and the people who love them. 

     So, I am going to stay with Care 2, and leave this group...But in the process I am going to leave you a link to a lovely story.It was featured in USA today...(They will probably change it soon, so you really should check it out.)

It is about a Kangaroo who saved a man's life.

 http://www.usatoday.com/news/offbeat/2004-04-28-kangaroo_x.htm   

P.S.

   I would like to see this Roo and You in hand to hand combat...No guns, no knives, and no witnesses. Why not Make it fair? 

 He would kick........................

AND ONE LAST,

NO ROO MEAT!

NO ROO MEAT!

NO ROO MEAT!

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   For those who don't know...

A member of the macropod family, the Red Kangaroo is the largest living marsupial.  Males can be as tall as two metres and weigh up to 198 pounds

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Signing out of your group now...

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