I assure you I am a well educated and very rational environmentalist

Thank you for joining

but how can anyone have a rational dialog in this group when the group owners mind is already set

I don't see how that would prevent rational discussion. It might make it difficult for you to change my mind, but that is not necessary. And besides, my mind is not set. My values may be a bit set.

I once lived in Australia on a sheep station and one of my neighbors accused my cats of killing song birds for many miles around and I told him he was full of crap

Aren't song birds American?

My aboriginal workers told me there were cats before Europeans arrived yet most Australians say there were not

I saw a documentary that explored the theory that cats were introduced from Indonesia prior to European arrival. The cats in WA look more like the Indonesian ones, and the aboriginies in some areas do not recall a time without cats. However, genetic testing indicates that the cats came from Europe. Europeanbs settled some areas fairly recently. It is possible the cats spread faster in some areas.

Your mind set is that the only way to control the cats is to kill them

No. I am happy for people to keep them captive. Especially if they feed them carp.

and you even doubt the proven Trap, Neuter and release procedure that has been a great success where it has been put into effect

the TNR fallacy: http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?gpp=4244&pst=395034&archival=

within two years the program was working and it is still working after ten successful years

If by working you mean the cats were kept alive, then yes, it is working. But if that is all you want why bother doing anything?

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Let me start by saying I work in animal rescue, have 2 cats of my own that are essentially my children, and I love all animals, and the environment, and have many other kitties who I have worked with who will always have a place in my heart. Some were even feral at one point. I do not particularly like the idea of killing anything that is alive, unless it is necessary. This does not make me blind to the problem though, it makes it more real.

I joined for a couple reasons. One is to say that I congratulate those who are trying to help people understand the dangers of feral/invasive species. These species (fauna or flora) pose real threats to native species, and it is important for people to understand that. I was directed to this group as a request to sign a petition to ban it, but while I may disagree with some opinions posted here, EVERYONE has a RIGHT to have and express their own opinions, as long as they do not attempt to force others to agree with them. So while my opinions differ with some here, I feel it is their right to express their opinions, as it is mine to disagree, and I will NOT be party to taking away any person's right to free speech, whether or not I agree with what they say.

 I do NOT support legalizing the hunting of feral species, because I know that such legalization would be abused by many, who would use it as an excuse to shoot a neighbor's pet because they don't like it ("Oops, thought it was feral") etc. I work at a shelter and see and hear about such things - or about people who trap irresponsibly, and find someone's beloved pet with a leg stuck in an illegal claw trap 3 days later because they set it for coyotes or something, and the pet is dead or seriously injured. There are too many people who are irresponsible about hunting and trapping for it to be completely legalized - it would give them another excuse.

I cannot say, nor can I let it be said that I am a softie against killing animals for any reason. I have, with a aching heart, held many animals while they were injected with euthanasia agents and died, for various reasons, usually medical. Yet the main reason I've had to do this comes down to too many animals, too many strays - or ferals - and not enough places for them to live. I support euthanasia as a way to humanely end the suffering of sick animals, as well as a way to keep domestic (feral or otherwise) animals from having to suffer a poor quality of life by living in a cage, or being released to an area that cannot support them.

I support RESPONSIBLE hunting or fishing, whether for sport or food, but not trophy or canned hunting. I am studying falconry, which is a form of hunting, both sport and for food. I fear for animals however, because of the novices who will go out, shoot them in a non-lethal area, and let the animal slowly die an agonizing death....this is another reason I worry about legalizing the hunting of ferals.

 I do agree that the populations of feral animals need to be addressed, and the only way to do this is through awareness and discussion. Education, I think, is the best bet. We could hunt until we use up every bullet, but as long as the uneducated let their intact pets run around loose, the problem will continue. We could spay and neuter all the ferals, and the same problem as above would happen. Until people understand and learn how to be responsible, no amount of shelters, TNR, hunting, or anything will do anything but cover the symptoms of the disease. People need to learn to spay and neuter (unless its a PEDIGREE animal intended for RESPONSIBLE breeding), keep their animals controlled (either keep them inside, or on a leash, NO animals dogs, cats or otherwise, should be allowed to run at large off their owner's property), and take proper care of their pets. If EVERY pet owner did this, and this were combined with other meathods of feral species control (whatever is appropriate and sustainable in the given area, TNR unfortunately does not work everywhere), then the disease could be treated, instead of just the symptom.

I apologize for how longwinded that was, but I wanted to let everyone know what my opinions are. I fully support everyone to have thier own thoughts and opinions, and encourage people to look into every new idea or solution with an open mind - and to try and help educate people, because I firmly believe education will really be the solution in the long run. I joined because from what I can tell, this group is about education about the problem, and it is working, people are aware somewhat, even if some are being close minded about it, it at least made them think about it for a minute. I want to say thumbs up to all who have been willing to express their opinions, even if they were unwelcome, because it shows that you are willing to stand up for your beliefs. I believe in free speech, and therefore support you in that, even if I disagree.

A vote of support of educating people, from someone in the field of animal rescue:

-Beth

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Very interesting posts here!

Freediver, I came to your area at the request of another to sign a petition to ban your presence on Care2.  I like to make my own decisions rather than blindly sign petitions that sound good.  While I value others opinions, there comes a time when proof needs to be presented.  I found it disturbing that your "proof" is nothing more than links to your opinions located in other areas of Care2 and none that point to any direct proof.  Where is your proof?

Chief Running Fox, I live right next door to Jacksonville, NC on Topsail Island and I concur with parts of your post.  TNR works quite well here from what I have found.  Because of this, I believe TNR should be used foremost before any thoughts of killing.

The most important post that I saw was from Beth K.  I couldn't agree more with what she has to say.  KUDOS BETH!  If I had posted before her, my post would have been just as long as hers.  As she said, and from my searches and personal knowledge, I'll disagree on the hunting of feral cats.  But as Beth indicated and Voltaire stated, I may disagree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. 

On one hand I want to sign the anti feral petition to show support against feral hunting.  Yet, on the other hand, if I try to have you banned, then someone will try to have me banned for trying to save sea turtles that visit our island.  I cannot in good conscience do that.  Aside from not wanting to go through someone trying to ban me, I believe in the rights of free speech, American or not.

So, while we may disagree on this topic, maybe we will agree on another.  We both have the same goal in mind, just different ways to obtain that goal.  For that reason, I respect your opinion and respectfully, decline to sign your petition as well.  Thank you for the opportunity to express my opinion in your forum.

Sincerely,

Michael
Semper Fi

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Thanks all.

TNR works quite well here from what I have found.

How do you judge this?

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We have very stringent quarantine. Someone was in court recently for trying to import a salami.

With the starlings, are they considered a nuisance because they are introduced, or are they a native animal that eats crops or has increased in population due to the human presence for some reason?

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Starlings are non-natives here.  They pose the same problems as feral cats. 

Lee  

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(4) An authorised officer who finds a cat attacking or harassing an animal (other than vermin) within a wildlife protection area (as defined in section 30 (1) (b)) can lawfully injure or destroy the cat if there is no other reasonably practicable way of protecting the animal.

(5) A person who takes action under the authority of this section that results in the injury to or death of a cat must:

(a) take reasonable steps to ensure that an injured cat receives any necessary treatment, and

(b) report the matter to an authorised officer (unless the person is an authorised officer) and comply with such reasonable directions as the authorised officer may give for the purpose of causing the cat to be returned to its owner or taken to a council pound, and

(c) take reasonable steps to inform the owner of the cat.

(6) An authorised officer is not to give a direction under this section for the purpose of causing a cat to be taken to a council pound unless the authorised officer is satisfied that the owner of the cat cannot be identified.

(7) Nothing in this section authorises a contravention of the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act 1979 .

(8) The authority conferred by this section to destroy a cat extends only to authorising the destruction of the cat in a manner that causes it to die quickly and without unnecessary suffering.

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Starlings were introduced into Central park in NYC in 1890's, by a group of people who thought every bird ever mentioned by Shakespeare should be in the U.S. Their successful spread is believed to be at the expense of many native birds.

Starlings were also introduced to NZ.

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Hi! I heard about this group from all the petitioning going on in one of the cat groups that I'm in, and I wanted to stop by and find out what you guys are really about. From what I've seen so far, you guys seem like nice normal people and not the rabid psychopaths that you're made out to be! (and quite honestly, even if you were, you have the right to your opinion!) So I just want to say, I think this petition thing is stupid, and I wish you guys the best of luck! (and I want to stick around to find out more about what you guys actually stand for!)

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Sturnus vulgaris -- introduced

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Freediver, you asked how I judge that TNR works after I asked for your proof that it didn't. 

My information comes from websites and in talking with our state animal control people. 

Here's a start for you.  This page is the official link from the state of North Carolina concerning feral animals:

http://www.aaanimalcontrol.com/Professional-Trapper/howtogetridofstraycats.htm

which states:

The ONE AND ONLY WAY to take care of your problem is with trapping and removal of the animals.

Then there is the Humane Society which is used by every state in the United States (where I'm from), that offers a course on TNR and how effective it is vs. killing.  You can read about that at https://gateway.hsus.org/hsuonline/coursedigest.cfm?user=&course=HUO-SP_TNR

If TNR did not work, then we wouldn't have laws for a trap and release program at all for feral animals.  This information comes from http://ils.unc.edu/parkproject/resource/nuisanceguide.pdf 

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The ONE AND ONLY WAY to take care of your problem is with trapping and removal of the animals.

That is, they oppose the release of the cats back into the wild.

I do not need to provide proof. There is a sound logical argument against TNR. If something flies in the face of logic then then it is up to it's supporters to demonstrate how it works. You haven't done that.

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i am wondering if, during your studies on tnr you have come across a study that asks, in its brief, 'what success does tnr have in reducing wildlife kill' ?

tnr certainly has effect on saving cats livesand stopping them breeding, but what about the countless mammals, invertibrates, avifauna, reptiles, butterflies, bugs etc that do not have a success in surviving the voracious appetite of a released feral?

a released feral has to feed, and since cattus can live for 15-20 years, thats a lot of feed, not counting the kill for fun.

tnr may be humane for cats, but it certainy is not humane for other cat prey fauna

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Wow!  Freediver, I can't believe you posted that.  No, you don't have to prove anything, which is probably why your petition is doing so worse than poorly.  You don't have to prove a thing if you don't want any supporters.  You asked for my proof and I gave it.  I asked for your proof and your answer is "I don't have to"?  There's a mature response!  That makes this group a total waste of time.  You aren't interested in anything other than your own opinion, no matter if it's right or wrong.

Boris on the other hand has brought up a rational question and a very important one.  I believe this is covered in those sites I pointed out as they refer to relocating the cats.  The reasons for relocating are to keep things in balance.  Thank you for bringing up that point Boris and causing more thought to go into this.  By creating more thought on the subject, people won't stop at what they think is an answer and continue to look for better ways.  That goes for both sides.  It's much better than I don't have to and just start killing.

Michael

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You asked for my proof and I gave it.

No you didn't. For example, the fact that the humane society offers a course in TNR is not proof that it works. The laws do not prove that it works either, unless your goal is purely political. A lot of the other stuff you provided is evidence against TNR. You haven't even explained what you mean by 'works.' The goal here is to preserve biodiversity, yet I didn't see a single reference to biodiversity in your 'proof'. Finally, TNR doesn't even make sense, as I explained in the other thread.

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The real problem isn't the fact that the cats are there, the problem is the fact that they were allowed to be born.  Irresponsible pet ownership is the problem, not the beating hearts of the cats.

TNR runs about $50 per animal.  True, a bullet costs much less than that, but then you have to deal with the clean-up and the possible spread of disease from the rotting corpses.

The killing of ferals was allowed in Wisconsin...here is a link to the Alley Cat Allies response to the Wisconsin Study. http://www.alleycat.org/pdf/wi_study.pdf

According to the Feral Cat Coalition a study done in San Deigo California showed that there was a 50% decrease in the number of ferals after TNR compared to a 15% increase each year before TNR.  http://www.feralcat.com/

I also ask this...what happened to the overpopulation of rabbits we heard about a few years back?  I remember some bru-ha-ha about animal advocates getting panties in a wad over the mass murders of the fuzzy, little bunnies.  Did that problem get solved thru mass extinction?  Or was a secondary solution found for that little problem?

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Blue - maybe so blue, but are you suggesting anything or just passing blame around?

True, a bullet costs much less than that, but then you have to deal with the clean-up and the possible spread of disease from the rotting corpses.

No you don't. If you are in an urban environment you can just put it in a plastic bag in a bin. In a rural environment there is no need to dispose of the carcass.

there was a 50% decrease in the number of ferals after TNR

They could have had a much bigger decrerase for lower cost without releasing the animals

I also ask this...what happened to the overpopulation of rabbits we heard about a few years back?

If you are referring to Australia, I never heard any complaints. We have released two diseases to help control the population, and farmers kill them as often as is practical by a variety of means.

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FD-

Totally agree that you have a right to post your opinions and be here on c2. But I host Animal Petitions and MY INTENTION of MY group is to gather PRO animla petitions and have them in one place so people can find them quickly and not waste time since we don't have enough in the day.

I was alerted to your posts and decided to see for myself what you were all about before I made any decisions because things get freakin' crazy on this website and I am so not about the drama or hurting anyone's feelings. Your views are at odds with my group and for that reason, I will be deleting your posts. Truly is nothing personal, but I want my group to be a place where people can do what they came to do and not get into the quagmire.

Peace and good luck in your journey.

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Will you be deleting the petition calling for the closure of this group?

What about the native animals? This is a pro native animal group. The people calling for the release of feral cats into the wild are attacking native animals and trying to send them extinct.

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Nobody is calling for the extinction of any species (well maybe YOU are)  Some of us are just stating that we don't think the cats need to be murdered to save a few dang birds.  If one can slow the population of cats...then one can feasibly expect the birds to be able to re-populate themselves since they have fewer predators.

Not a very hard logical path to follow there dudes.

PS, I think the petition should stay where it is...if you get vaporized.  Tough nuggies.  Life isn't fair.

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in ecological terms that is.  There is merely imbalance.  Mostly, the ecology is best left to itself, but if it falls out of balance, ecologists need to look at the whole ecosystem and work out what is causing the imbalance. 

If it is an overpopulation of one species, that will cure itself when its food supply begins to reduce.  In the case of cats, that is different.  The over population of humans tends to augment the food supply of feral and 'domesticated' cats, and it is often very hard to determine where the difference lies.  Sometimes a cull becomes neccessary because humans can't resist a cat.  Not only are cats very good at looking pathetic and hungry, they are also extremely good at looking wild and dangerous.  This makes some people think they are 'saving' a starving creature and 'taming' a wild one at the same time.  Some people are fixated on speech and cannot tell when great acting is going on in non-verbal terms.

I do think that when numbers become excessive, you do need to reduce the number of cats in the vicinity, but I don't think I would want to kill one.  I just don't keep one, nor do I feed any, however hungry and pathetic they look.  I have a dog, so I don't get cats in the garden, and I don't use pesticides, so there are lots of insects and seeds for birds to eat. 

In consequence, my garden is a sanctuary for wild birds and small animals.  I keep out of it much of the time, so I don't know what is actually there.  I have seen a few squirrels, and once saw a pheasant, visiting from the botanical gardens population 3 miles away I expect.

I don't really agree with killing cats, but have no intention of signing any petitions to remove this group from care 2.  I think the real Feral peril is bleeding hearts.

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Whew!

What a thread!!!

Freediver, I had no idea you were so "popular". Advocating killing feral cats is something no one talks about, but the reality is that it happens all the time. Oh, and not just feral cats, but exotic or wild cats as well.

Cats are specialized killers. They have been around for ages, and I will help them to survive the flood of humanity that is our next epidemic to destroy the wild.

I volunteer at a feline conservation center, and a city pound. I love and respect felines. But they do not belong amongst city streets. As a housecat, the people need to realize that the cat is the owner. If you think it is different, you are wrong.

I need to tell someone this, so I am telling it here first. I will then go post it on some cat lover groups, because I am passionate that it be heard.

I saw a cat smash its head very hard today. I drive a street sweeper, and was moving slowly down the street when a young orange tabby with a cute little collar around its neck got scared. I was still a long ways away from it, but it was so terrified it ran full speed around the chain link, and then up the driveway toward the gate. It plowed into that gate full speed, forehead first.

This gate was across a driveway. It was large, and heavy. The collision moved the gate about a foot or so. I was helpless. All I could do was watch. It happened so fast, I did not even have time to slow down.

Please reconsider allowing a cat to live outdoors. They do not understand us. They suffer. This cat continued on at a break neck pace, one of its lives is gone. I do hope it will not have brain problems. The collision was awful to witness.

I do blame the "owners". I really did not need to see this. This was the second cat today. The first was a black cat, that kept trying to dart in, smashing into the chain link it was near. I own a black cat. It is safe inside.

Best, Eric

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Cats belong indoors....there's too much outside that can harm them...humans are dangerous...period...its the animals fault...the fault lies with us....its ignorant of people to think that just killing off the feral animals will solve their issues...it won't...It's our fault their feral...people need to be educated on the care of animals prior to getting them...I agree with Eric....I have three indoor cats and would never let them outside....

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