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Some of the old "Greats". June 06, 2005 4:58 PM

Since we've been discussing pedigrees & bandying around the names of some of the old "greats", I thought I'd start a new thread specifically to highlight them. We can post pics & info on some of the stallions & mares who were influential to the AQHA, APHA &/or ApHC breeds.   
 
Please feel free to contribute!!!
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Joe Reed & Joe Reed II June 06, 2005 5:13 PM

Joe Reed

 

Of all the old great, foundation stallions who influenced the American Quarter Horse [& later, through them, the American Paint & to some degree the Appaloosa] my favorite is probably Joe Reed [pictured above.]. Both he & his son Joe Reed II [pictured below] were studies in balance & moderation, giving them great athletic ability.    
 
There's a wonderful story as to how Joe Reed came to be. As I recall, it goes something like this...

In 1920, the TB race stallion, Joe Blair, & the running mare, Della Moore, were stabled next to each other in a backstretch barn. [Sorry, I can't remember which race track this was.] Well, one night Della was in season & the two horses were being somewhat fractious,- hollering to each other & kicking at the wall that separated them.

It just so happened that several grooms were having an all night poker [or crap] game & didn't really appreciate the distraction. Libations were flowing freely when the grooms decided that they knew just how to quiet those two horses down. Yup,- they took it on themselves to breed Della Moore to Joe Blair. [I'm sure it really seemed like a good idea at the time!]

Unfortunately, no one was elected to tell the horses' owners or trainers about the mating. Consequently, it was a bit of a surprise for the Della Moore camp when, a few months later, their fast little mare started getting a belly & being a bit sluggish. Eventually, the tale of that night was revealed when the result was a little sorrel colt,- Joe Reed!  A gifted race horse & an extremely influential sire, Joe Reed [who passed away in 1947] was inducted into the AQHA Hall of Fame in 1992.
 
Joe Reed's son, Joe Reed II [pictured below] was also exceptional. On the track, Joe Reed II ran AA time & earned the title of AQHA World Champion Running Horse in 1942 & 43. He was inducted into the AQHA Hall of Fame.

Joe Reed II.



As a breeding horse, his get earned superiors in performance & race as well as points in halter. He was an AQHA Champion sire. Joe Reed II is a Hall of Fame sire & was a sire of top producing daughters & on the leading maternal grandsire list. [X factor? - Many of his sons also went on to be noted broodmare sires.] To many people, though, Joe Reed II is best remembered as being the sire of Leo.

Personally, I could get lost looking at Joe Reed II's photograph. [Actually, I believe I have.] To my eye, he is the definition of a "balanced" horse. There is nothing trendy or faddish about Joe Reed II,- he excelled in the past & I'm confident he would today, too.
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Thanks Barb! June 06, 2005 6:31 PM

Hey Barb thanks for starting with two of my favorites actually! And they were/are definitely both influences in apps. All of my current horses have at least one link to Joe Reed and Joe and Copper have something like 13 in 9 generations including at least one link to a half brother Joe Moore.

Huge influences and what prepotent sires! Where would the world be without Leo!

Neat thread for pedigree junkies!

Toni

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Bright Eyes Brother, an app "great" June 07, 2005 9:00 AM

Bright Eyes Brother, ApHC Hall of Fame

Bright Eyes Brother

Foaled on the Maddon Ranch in New Mexico in 1950, Bright Eyes Brother was indisputably an Appaloosa. The colt’s sire was the AQHA registered Billy Maddon, so it was deduced that the colt’s color had come from none other than his dam, the unregistered Plaudette. Plaudette was by the Thoroughbred stallion King Plaudit, and was a sprint and match race mare. As a broodmare, it was clear that she passed on her running abilities to her offspring when she produced the three time AQHA champion running mare Maddon’s Bright Eyes. But despite having foaled AQHA registered horses in the past, Plaudette obviously carried some Appaloosa in her blood, and this was evidenced when foaled the attractive buckskin blanketed colt that would come to be known as Bright Eyes Brother.

As a two year old, Bright Eyes Brother – then called Frosty – was sold to Wiley Donaldson, who used the colt as a rodeo horse; he found that Frosty was very adept around cattle, especially in roping events. Because Donaldson and his family treated the horse more as a pet than anything else, during Frosty’s five years with Donaldson he was rarely used as a sire – and while he did sire five foals during that time, three were from stock mares he covered when he got loose at a rodeo.

While the buckskin stallion was busy with rodeos, a Colorado-based auctioneer had been listening to stories about the horse for years. That auctioneer, whose name would become forever intertwined with that of Bright Eyes Brother, was Cecil Dobbin. Dobbin had seen prices for Appaloosas in auctions soar and decided that the well-bred stallion would make a good herd sire to begin his own breeding program. Dobbin kept his ear to the ground for two years before he finally found Frosty on Wiley Donaldson’s ranch. Dobbin first offered Donaldson any rodeo horse on the circuit that was for sale in exchange for Frosty, but Donaldson refused. Not to be discouraged, Dobbin returned to Donaldson's ranch with $10,000 from his savings account, as well another $10,000 loaned from a friend, and eventually enticed Donaldson to sell the stallion without having to dip into the second $10,000. A wave of guilt swept Dobbin as he watched Donaldson's young daughter say a teary goodbye to Frosty as she fed him gumdrops out of her hand; but the deal had been made, and Dobbin left with the stallion.

Returning to Colorado with Frosty, Dobbin made a stop at a phone to call his friend Dick Spencer and boast about his newest acquisition. When Spencer found out that the horse was a half brother to the famous Maddon’s Bright Eyes, he jokingly told Dobbin to call the horse Bright Eye’s Brother, since “that’s what you're going to be telling everyone” – and the name stuck.

In Colorado, Dobbin registered the horse with the Appaloosa Horse Club and promptly began Bright Eyes Brothers’ show career. Most notably, the stallion competed regularly at the Denver National Western Stock Show. After winning grand champion Appaloosa stallion at the show, he was invited to show at the San Antonio Livestock Show in 1958. After his arrival, Dobbin put Bright Eyes Brothers’ pedigree on the horses’ stall for everyone to see, creating a stir among AQHA breeders, some who were amazed – others angry – that an Appaloosa could be related to their illustrious mare Maddon’s Bright Eyes. Despite the controversy, Bright Eyes Brother easily took home the 1958 grand champion Appaloosa stallion title, only to create another stir when he and Dobbin walked in the Parade of Champions - an honor usually reserved for the Quarter Horses.

Throughout Bright Eyes Brother's career as a stud, Dobbin continually received offers to buy the stallion. Dobbin even received a $50,000 offer for half interest in the stallion before any of his foals had been born, but Dobbin always refused, even turning down an offer from legendary breeder Hank Weiscamp. Dobbin also rarely sold the foals Bright Eyes Brother sired until they were yearlings, giving him a chance to appraise the product of his breeding program.

As a sire, Bright Eyes Brother produced 138 registered offspring. Cecil Dobbin was a believer in quality not quantity, and usually bred the horse to fewer than 20 mares each breeding season. Dobbin handpicked the mares that he bred Bright Eyes Brother to, mostly choosing mares who were from Coke Roberds and Mavis Peavy bloodlines. Dobbin rarely bred the stallion to outside mares, preferring to instead to sell the Bright Eyes Brother offspring his ranch produced. One notable exception to this rule was Bright Eyes Brother's breedings to Lane Hudson's mare Peggy's Delight, producing the famed Mighty Bright and his subsequent full siblings Bright Delight, Bright Cecil, Gypsy Delight, and Barely Bright.

Bright Eyes Brother sired several well known Appaloosas, including Hall of Fame stallions Mighty Bright and Bright Chip, Hall of Fame mare Bright Starlette, 1963 Appaloosa National Show grand champion mare Bright Delight, National and World champion Bright Reflection, and two time National champion Bright Tribute. Bright Eyes Brother is in turn the grandsire of the stallions Mighty Marshall, Mighty Paul, and Mighty Peavy. Bright Eyes Brother also has the distinction of being the sire with the most offspring in the Appaloosa Horse Club Hall of Fame.

Bright Eyes Brother died in 1979 at the age of 29.

Taken from the ApHC Museum website.

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anonymous  June 07, 2005 11:23 AM

I did massive pedigree studies when I first started training horses, but that was like 10 years ago. All I remember is Doc Bar and a Sunny something. Anyone know what I mean?  [report anonymous abuse]
 
Sonny Dee Bar by Win Or Lose? June 07, 2005 1:13 PM

I've a good pic of him on my files & will try to post something tonight or tomorrow!

  

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Sonny Dee Bar June 09, 2005 5:07 AM

[You asked for it Reyn! ]

Sonny Dee Bar

Sonny Dee Bar was a 1965 sorrel stallion by Win or Lose [Mr Bar None X Leo's Lady by Leo] & out of Chigger's Baby by Chigger [Chigger's Baby was bred 2X2 Midnight Jr]. 
 
He earned a Superior in Halter & a performance Register of Merit. On the leading sires list, his get include AQHA Champions, Superior earners, ROM earners, NSBA money earners, etc.
 
I recall reading that, a very early age, Sonny Dee Bar was purchased by an Oklahoma sheriff. The sheriff's goal was to win the halter class at the County Fair horse show. Well, he did with the young Sonny Dee Bar & again the next year. That's when another horseman [can't remember the name] came along & offered the sheriff a price he couldn't refuse. Sonny Dee Bar was sold, went on to earn an impressive show record & become a leading sire. Kinda makes you wonder what would have happened if the sheriff hadn't sold, eh?
 
Sonny Dee Bar always sired a lot of "chrome" & his name is often seen in Paint pedigrees, too. [Many of his QH foals were crop outs during the "white rule" years.] There's always been an old rumor floating around that Sonny Dee Bar had a belly spot that was doctored up with show polish. I don't know that for a fact but, as you can see in his pic, he was very flashy sporting Sabino chrome.   
Sonny Dee Bar influenced the "modern" look.   

 

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Bright Eyes Brother June 09, 2005 6:36 AM

Hey Toni,

With what we now know about color genetics & Appaloosa characteristics in general [as seen on the site, The Appaloosa Project] do you really think Bright Eyes Brother's pedigree is correct? If Billy Maddon & the mare were both solid colored, wouldn't it be impossible for such a mating to result in such a load colored foal?

Afterall, this was long before DNA parentage verification or even blood typing. Mistakes happen & sometimes the people involved don't even realize it. [Mares being exposed to different stallions, mares switching foals, etc.] Too, sometimes the people know or suspect, they just don't want to say...

Wasn't the pedigree of Absaroka [sp?] kinda susupect, too? 

So what do you think? Either way, Bright Eyes Brother will always be one of my favorite Appaloosa stallions!

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BEB pedigree June 09, 2005 7:10 AM

I think most of the research done by folks keeps BEBs pedigree the way it is and credits the app characteristics to Plaudette and Old Fred. I'd have to go back and find some of the discussion there related to the new research, but essentially one parent had to have LP (the gene responsible for characteristics). Plaudette must have also had a copy or two of PATN that she could pass on. I'll see if I can find anything directly related to discussions about BEB, because I'm not remembering off the top of my head.

If my info is correct, absarokee sunset actually had two app parents, but quite a bit of QH. Here you also find Old Fred and some of the old QHs thought to be actually appaloosas.

Colida is another one. The ApHC website has him by an unknown appaloosa, but many believe he also had a QH sire and Dam.

Wapiti is another with a QH sire and dam. Del Mar has the dam listed as an app, so hard to know if those pedigrees are correct, but believe you will find more old fred and some of those roberds horses that are believed to be apps. I think most of the research leans towards lots of apps in Roberds herd and many many that were registered as QHs or produced registered QHs that were actually apps

I'll try to do some research later today.

So, the long answer to your question LOL Many of the horses in these pedigrees were actually app (they either carried the LP gene and some version of the pattern genes).

Toni

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hidden PATN (pattern) June 09, 2005 8:22 AM

Here is an explanation I found. This comes from one of the geneticists researching the app gene and pattern inheritance

"So an example of what you just described....Wapiti.....one of his
parents was probably an LP roan and the other was an NC with a hidden
PATN?"



"Yes, this is probably what happened, though all the right factors are there for both the E-effect and some strong suppression to be part of the scenario as
well.

The dam, Cuadroon, is the source of the LP gene that Wapiti got. She was a dark brown or black minimally-marked "roan", with no white face or leg markings,
mottled skin and white sclera, a few white spots that developed over time.


Could have been carrying some suppressed PATN genes, no way of knowing for sure. Certainly her basecoat colour was a factor (E-effect).

The sire, Gold Heels, had sabino indicators, and must have carried a hidden copy of agouti (the bay gene) as well, because Wapiti ended up being a bay, and his
dam was not. The sire could also have been carrying some other sort of PATN gene that, when matched up with the dam's copy of LP in the foal, helped with
the expression of dense white patterning also, produced a sizeable blanket pattern on Wapiti. All the right things were passed on, and nothing that was
suppressing the expression of LP in the dam - presto!"

Hope that helps!

Toni

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Huh, interesting... June 09, 2005 4:05 PM

.... or someone could have jumped the fence.....

Thanks for the research, Toni! Very interesting!  

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Joe Moore June 09, 2005 4:37 PM

[here ya go, Toni! ]

Della Moore by Old DJ, the dam of Joe Reed, was also bred to Little Joe by Traveler. This mating resulted in "Joe Moore". The sire of 15 stakes winners & two racing World Champions. Joe Moore also sired NCHA money earners as well as halter & performance point earners.   

joe moore

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Three Bars June 18, 2005 11:06 AM

.

.Three Bars

Born in 1940 in Midway, Kentucky, "Three Bars" was a chestnut Thoroughbred stallion by Percentage [by Midway] & out of Myrtle Dee [by Luke McLuke]. A 'speed horse', Three Bars went on to be a stakes winning race horse.

As a sire, Three Bars was, quite possibly, the single greatest influence on the modern American Quarter Horse &, subsequently, the American Paint & Appaloosa. Of his 499 AQHA registered offspring, 431 were performers. They included World Champions, AQHA Champions & AQHA Supreme Champions. Three Bar descendents went on to create dynasties in the industry, excelling as race horses, halter horses, cutters, reiners, western pleasure horses, etc. Three Bars passed away in 1968. He was, quite rightfully, inducted into the AQHA Hall Of Fame.  

Three Bars advert  

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Some of Three Bars sons include... June 18, 2005 12:09 PM

Barred 

Barred
 
Three Bars (Tb) - Percentage X Ready - Red Joe of Arizonia
1946; AQHA - 11,990
 
Owned by Melville Haskell of Arizonia & out of a Joe Reed granddaughter, Barred was one of the few AQHA Supreme Champions. SI-95, Barred was a stakes winner with LTEs of $9,229 from 42 starts resulting in 16 wins.  
 
He was the sire of many noted AAA runners as well as performance & race ROM earners. Barred was also a noted broodmare sire. His daughter, Rica Bar, produced  AAAT, AQHA Hall of Fame inductee, Top Moon. Another daughter, Miss Night Bar, is the dam AAA runner, Three Jets.
***
doc bar
Doc Bar
 
Lightning Bar - Three Bars (Tb) X Dandy Doll - Texas Dandy
1956; AQHA - 76,136
 
By a stallion who ran AAA & out of a race ROM mare, Doc Bar was bred to run. Apparently he didn't agree. A rather lackluster career gained only a SI-75 and $95.00. Doc Bar then went on to a successful halter career, earning  36 points. His true claim to fame was his ability as a sire. When crossed to mares of specific lines [ex,- Poco Bueno daughters] the foals were amazingly talented cutting horses.  He sired World Champions, Superiors, ROMs, NCHA money earners of $3,213,453 and NCHA Hall of Fame inductees. Doc Bar was inducted into the  AQHA Hall of Fame.   
***
Sugar Bars
Sugar Bars
 
Three Bars (Tb) - Percentage X Frontera Sugar - Rey
1951; AQHA - 42,606
 
Suagar Bars, SI-95, had 30 starts with 7 wins. He earned a race ROM & 2 halter points standing Reserve Champion.  Registered by Bud Warren, he was an exceptional sire. He seemed to niche particularly well on Leo mares. His foals earned AQHA Championships, High Point titles, Superiors & ROMs on the track & in the arena. Sugar Bars is in the AQHA Hall of Fame.   
***
Three Bars... one of the best arguements I know of for utilizing Thoroughbred blood in Quarter Horse breeding programs!
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TB blood June 18, 2005 12:53 PM

Boy I sure do agree with you there Barb. Some of the most awesome athletes and versatile athletes I have seen all seem to have that nice combination of cow or performance bloodlines and TB Speed. Granted there are awesome athletes without it, but there is just something about that combination that knocks my socks off LOL

Toni

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Joe Moore June 18, 2005 12:57 PM

Very neat! Thanks Barb, don't think I had this info or a pic of him!

Toni

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King P-234 July 27, 2005 5:01 PM

                            King

                                    King
Zantanon - Little Joe X Jabalina - Strait horse 
              1932 - 1958; AQHA - P-234

What can I say about King? One of the great foundation sires of the American Quarter Horse, his influence is still seen today. King is on the AQHA's All Time Leading Sires list & has been inducted into the [respective] Hall[s] of Fame by the AQHA, NCHA & the NRHA.

This great bay horse was line bred to Traveler 3X4, Sykes Rondo 4X5X4 and Locks Rondo 5X5.

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Wimpy -- AQHA first registered horse! July 28, 2005 11:47 AM

LegendsOutstanding Quarter Horse Stallions and MaresBy Diane C. Simmons
Chapter 1 - Wimpy P-1WIMPY ACHIEVED everlasting recognition in the world of Quarter Horses by being awarded the number 1 in the AQHA registry. This sorrel stallion was bred and raised by the King Ranch, Kingsville, Texas.

y«owever, there seems to be uncertainty as to when he was foaled. In his book, The King Ranch Quarter Horses, Bob Denhardt gives the foaling date as 1935 in one place, 1936 in another, and 1937 in still another. AQHA Stud Book No. 1 gives Wimpy's foaling date as 1935, and a King Ranch ad in the No. 2 Stud Book, published in 1943, shows a picture of Wimpy and gives his age as 8, which would indicate he was foaled in '35. Yet, Wimpy's official AQHA record gives his foaling date as 1937, as given on his original registration application.

In terms of Wimpy's contributions to the Quarter Horse industry, it makes no difference when he was foaled. But this discrepancy is mentioned in case Quarter Horse history buffs question it.

When the AQHA was organized, the first directors decided that numbers 2 through 19 in the stud book would be issued to those stallions they considered to be the foundation stock for the breed. The coveted number 1, they agreed, would go to the horse named grand champion stallion at the 1941 Fort Worth Exposition and Fat Stock Show.

This turned out to be a popular idea, and many of the best stallions of that era were led into the ring to be scrutinized by judge Jim Minnick. Most of them were better known than Wimpy. But after Minnick watched all of the horses move, and studied each one closely, he chose Wimpy as the grand champion stallion. The reserve champion: Silvertone, a palomino owned by Lee Underwood of Wichita Falls, Texas.

Wimpy was returned to the King Ranch, where he spent most of his life.

A look at his pedigree shows that he was a double-bred Old Sorrel. Old Sorrel, of course, was the foundation stallion of all the King Ranch Quarter Horses.

According to The King Ranch Quarter Horses, Old Sorrel's sire, Hickory Bill, was registered in the appendix of The American Stud Book as a Thoroughbred. Denhardt states that Hickory Bill was sired by Peter McCue, and was out of Lucretia M., a bay mare registered with the Jockey Club for racing purposes only.

Raced in Illinois before he was taken to Texas, Hickory Bill was reportedly clocked in some sizzling times for a quarter-mile, half-mile, and five-eighths mile. He evidently had speed to burn.

He was also a good-looking horse, and started siring some top horses right away. One of them was Old Sorrel, who was out of a mare once owned by a Dr. Rose, a dentist. When she was bred to Hickory Bill, however, she was owned by George Clegg, an outstanding breeder in south Texas.

Not much is known about this mare, although Denhardt states that she was supposed to have been a Thoroughbred. The King Ranch bought her and her suckling colt from Clegg. The colt was never given a formal name. He was simply referred to as the Old Sorrel.

Like all King Ranch stallions, Old Sorrel was used as a ranch horse, and proved to be a superior cow horse. From his second crop of foals came a colt named Solis, who was out of a mare referred to as the mother of Solis. She was a classy Thoroughbred mare - one of many that the King Ranch had acquired from a gentleman named Sam Lazarus, according to Denhardt.

Solis was also broke and used as a ranch horse to determine if he was worthy of being used for breeding. He was, and one mare he was bred to was Panda, a daughter of Old Sorrel. Yes, half-brother was bred to half-sister, and the result was Wimpy. Regardi?g this inbreeding, Denhardt stated the following in his book:

"Breeding half-sisters to half-brothers may seem a little tight - and it does make Wimpy inbred. Inbreeding can be a dangerous procedure for the average breeder working with only 30 or 40 mares and 3 or 4 stallions. It appears, however, that when it is practiced by a master breeder and geneticist such as Bob Kleberg, it works. Careful culling and intelligent and intuitive selection of individuals encourages success, and the desired characteristics are thereby doubled and tripled until they are set.

"Wimpy proved to be a great breeder, and he sired many great sons and daughters. The best were retained by the King Ranch, and their excellence and their reputation is known only locally. Some of his offspring were sold to members of the general public, however, and they gained justifiable fame."

Some of Wimpy's better-known offspring included Bill Cody, Little Wimpy, Wimpy II, Silver Wimpy, Showdown, and Red Wimpy. Their influence as sires is still being felt today. Take Bill Cody, the 1952 AQHA Honor Roll Halter Horse, for example. One of his best sons was Joe Cody, an AQHA Champion and a leading sire of reining horses. He was owned by Tom Fuller's Willow Brook Farms, Catasauqua, Pennsylvania. And one of Joe Cody's best sons is Topsail Cody, owned by Bob Loomis, Marietta, Oklahoma. Topsail Cody won the National Reining Horse Futurity in 1980, and has sired many outstanding reiners.

Bill Cody also sired Codalena, who was out of the mare Watt's Niki. A sorrel mare foaled in 1952, Codalena became an outstanding producer, with six AQHA Champions. They were Texas Pine, Pine Pancho, Pine Chock, Pine's Codalena, Pine's Leana, and Barry Pine - all sired by Poco Pine.

Silver Wimpy became a leading maternal grandsire of AQHA Champions.

However, he is probably best remembered as the sire of Marion's Girl, an outstanding cutting mare in the 1950s - and the NCHA World Champion in 1954 and '56. She was bred by Clarence Scharbauer Jr., and throughout her cutting ca  [ send green star]

 
wimpy again July 28, 2005 11:49 AM

STALLION SIRE RECORD FOR WIMPY
Superior Halter Sire
Superior Performance Sire
AQHA Champion Sire
Performance Point Earner Sire
Halter Point Earner Sire

Get Record
Total Points Earned: 547; Reg Foals: 174; Number Shown: 33; Point Earners: 15; Halter Points Earned: 351; Halter Point Earners: 13; Halter Superior Awards: 2; Performance Points Earned: 196; Performance Point Earners: 4; Performance Superior Awards: 1; AQHA Champions: 1; Total Superior Awards: 3; High Point Wins: 1;

Outstanding Get
Bill Cody
Gitana Chica
Little Wimpy
Red Wimpy
Showdown
Wimpy II

Other Information
Breeder: King Ranch Inc., Kingsville, TX; '89 AQHA Hall of Fame

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Bill Cody by Wimpy July 28, 2005 2:36 PM

Bill Cody [one of my all time favorites!]

sire: Wimpy by Solis 

1st dam: Pesetita by Old Sorrel by Solis 

2nd dam: Peseta by Cardinal by Old Sorrel

Bred by the King Ranch, Bill Cody was an AQHA Superior Halter Horse & was the 1952 High Point Halter stallion. He sired 12 AQHA Champions; 1 Superior Cutting Horse; 8 Superior Halter Horses & 28 Arena ROM earners as well as AQHA & NRHA Hall of Fame inductees. [NFQHA - 100% foundation.]

                      bill cody

Bill Cody

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anonymous OMG!!! August 25, 2005 2:22 PM

Hello Barb, everyone!

This took my breath away when I clicked on this paticular topic.

I have followed Joe Reed many years.

(I want ya'll to know I am in a tiny effec/with no  horses anymore).

i have had 3 horses out of the lineage of Joe.  My outstanding horse was Vincient Concho Leo - he was my last saddle horse, amazing! He had the exact looks of Leo.

 sorry I could not enlarge this!

Joe Reed ended up in Milam County Texas for awhile... this horse in the picture, is from Mexia,Texas ... he was a 'cull' from a working ranch - I knew he was gelded when I bought him... then his papers arrived ding dang horse was proud cut and and and couldn't throw nothing but other riders!

I have so much history on Joe Reed it is wild!!

Thanks again for memory lane!

Dixie

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anonymous excuse me!!! August 25, 2005 2:28 PM

I did mean Joe Reed II...  [report anonymous abuse]
 
Hi Dixie! September 10, 2005 10:01 PM

Sorry it's taken me forever to answer you [lots of mind frazzling circumstances] & I do apologize! Joe Reed was great, wasn't he? I think just about every horse here [& we have a few ] go back to him.

I'm presently having internet "issues" [I'm also trying to be polite ] but I'd sure like to continue this conversation later. TTYL!   

   

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Jaok September 17, 2005 3:47 PM

joak

Here's another great horse from the Joe Reed line! By Joe Reed II, Joak [1948 dun] was a AAA stakes winning race horse [SI-95] & earned his race ROM. He was out of Navie Girl by Cowboy by Yellow Jacket.

He sired AQHA Champions, Superior Race Horses, Superior Halter Horses, race & arena ROM earners as well as stake winning race horses. Joak was perhaps best known as a broodsire...  his producing daughters were greatly valued.

[One of my older broodmares, "The Irish Empress", has Joak on her papers.

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 September 17, 2005 5:35 PM

Very cool Barb!

Well, I don't have anything that close up in my apps that is for sure! Mia has two Joe Reed II daughters in her 5th generation on the dam side.

Sierra Suwanee (Joe Reed II x Dixie) was a Dam of Racing Winners, Dam of Stakes Winner, Dam of Racing Money Earners ($35,825), Racing ROM Producer, Racing 2 Year Old ROM Producer, Racing 80+ ROM Producer, Racing 100+ ROM Producer, Superior Racing Producer, Dam of Halter Point Earners, Dam of Performance Point Earners, Performance ROM Producer, Dam of AQHA Champion.

Most of that racing money earned was earned by Suwanee Bars who I am pretty sure was by Three Bars? According to the AQHA printout I have, out of her 14 AQHA foals, 10 were performing.

The other daughter Mia has is Josita (Joe Reed II x Ladies Maid) Not too much on the AQHA side: Dam of Performance Point Earner, Performance ROM Producer, Dam of High Point Winner. She is the dam of an appaloosa in Mia's pedigree named Minidoka Josey who was a halter winner and I think a racing winner. I need to get her ApHC produce information, because I suspect she probably produced some more app winners.

Toni

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 September 18, 2005 6:03 AM

Sierra Suwanee was a heck of a tough race mare! She ran AAA [SI-100] & won some major stake races. Who was the AQHA Champion out of Sierra Suwanee?

Here's the pedigree on my older broodmare, The Irish Empress. She's HEAVY Joe Reed breeding. Yeah, I know, she's fairly inbred. [Sometimes it works if you have lots of dominant genes. ] I didn't breed her, friends of ours who owned her sire Scarlet Irishman & his sire, Scarlet Imp, did. Not everyone gets along with that Scarlet Imp family. They're... "thinkers".  I first saw Irish when she was on her dam's side, decided I'd buy her someday & did when she was two years old.  

the irish empress

Here's a pic of Irish. It was taken a few years ago in Florida. [Note the cypress trees. ] This is a good producing mare! I've kept one of her foals, a yearling palomino filly by my old stallion, Mr JB Dude. "JB Irish Mist" is the last foal by JB. [For those who don't know, I lost JB in January 2004 & just about lost my mind as a result. That horse was my heart.] Mist is a nice indiviual... she's a keeper.

In 2006, I'm probably going to breed Irish to my JB colt, Sir JB Bailey. Those lines seem to niche well.   

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 September 18, 2005 7:02 AM

Hey Barb!

What a nice mare Barb! Well, here is Mia's pedigree--not much less line breeding, though I didn't breed her either LOL

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/mia+rose+centerfold

Can't wait to see what you get out of her with Bailey!

I'm not sure who Sierra Suwanee's AQHA champion was--I just have the summary produce of Dam report. I think it might be Suwanee Bars ($34,154 race earnings). Sierra Buck is the horse out of her in Mia's and know he sired Possum Honey--superior halter mare plus many AQHA champions as well, but he was just a performance ROM earner and halter point earner himself. I should get Sierra Suwanee's detailed report next month! LOL

I think Mia must have gotten that "thinker" attitude from her dam side! Though, I was attributing it to all her crosses to Skipper W--maybe I should rethink that one! I like the thinkers!

Toni

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Maybe some of you can help... September 18, 2005 10:24 AM

WOW!  I've always enjoyed reading pedigrees & know the names of most of the old horses &, in some cases, what types of events they excelled at - but the knowledge all of you have is AMAZING! 

Do any of you have any information on an old Paint Stud:  Kingfisher?

My mare goes back to him...  Thanks for all of the interesting facts!  Please keep them coming...

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Krista September 18, 2005 11:15 AM

Krista,

That name sure sounds familiar to me but have no idea why LOL I don't know much about the Paint bloodlines and consider myself a novice at the others.

Bet you money though that Barb can tell you something! Looking forward to her reply!

Toni

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And on the racing theme . . . September 18, 2005 11:53 AM

Think Barb will appreciate this grand ole dam. Not to change the subject from Joe Reed, but thought I'd throw this lady into the mix since we were discussing great runners and producers

Barbara L (Patriotic TB x Big Bess AQHA) 1947 Bay -- bred by A B Green and I believe the "beginning" of his great Barbara line, but Barb correct me if I am wrong on that one

Barbara L (Patriotic TB x Big Bess AQHA)

Racing Winner, Stakes Winner, Racing Money Earner ($32,836), Best SI 95, 1953 Racing New Track Record CEN 400 20.200, Superior Race Horse, 1951 New Track Record LA 400 20.500, 1951 Equaled Track Record LA 350 18.500, Racing ROM. Dam of Racing Winners, Dam of Stakes Winners, Dam of Racing Money Earners ($262,042), Racing ROM Producer, Racing 2 Year Old ROM Producer, Racing 80+ ROM Producer, Racing 90+ ROM Producer, Racing 100+ ROM Producer, Dam of Superior Racing Earners, Dam of Halter Point Earner.

Barbara 3 was her leading money earner at $100,692. She shows up in Joe and Copper's pedigree in the 5th generation on their side.

In their pedigree she was bred to Leo to produce Barbara 2 who herself earned a little money racing and set a equaled track record but was a great producer herself: Racing Money Earner ($2,847), 1962 Racing Equaled Track Record, Racing ROM Earner. Dam of Racing Winners, Dam of Stakes Winners, Dam of Racing Money Earners ($312,351), Racing ROM Producer, Racing 2 Year Old ROM Producer, Racing 80+ ROM Producer, Racing 90+ ROM Producer, Racing 100+ ROM Producer, Superior Racing Award Producer.

Again in my two horse's pedigrees Barbara 2 was bred to Three Bars to produce Nother Barbra. A racing money earner and racing ROM earner. Not too much of a production record from AQHA, but she did produce a filly named TTs Riviera out of Zero Mac who wasn't shown, but produced some superior appaloosas and I believe produced some great producers! Nother Barbra only shows as having 5 AQHA foals and only one was raced. Would be interesting to know why she did not have the same kind of production record--crossed on the wrong stallions? As far as the AQHA information I ahve, she was breed to Hobby Horse, Zero Mac and her last AQHA foal was by Impressive. She was foaled in 1968 and had her first registered AQHA foal in 1975, then doesn't have another until 1980. Has one every year then until her last in 1983. I guess at least I know what a great ApHC producer one of her daughter's was!

Toni

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Correction September 18, 2005 11:55 AM

Meant to write Barbara L shows up in my horse's pedigree in the 5th generation, not her Barbara 3 daughter LOL I'm confusing myself now! LOL

Toni

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Here I go again September 18, 2005 12:03 PM

Actually, duh! Once we get to Barbara 2 we are back on the Joe Reed lines through Leo LOL big Duh from me LOL

Toni

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 September 18, 2005 5:51 PM

Thanks for the post[s], Toni! Very good info! Barbara L's Thoroughbred sire, Patriotic, wsa a Man O' War grandson.

Don't forget the AAA race mare, Barbra B. She wasn't related to this line [she was by Bar Hunter II & out of a Waggoner Rainy Day daughter] but, I'm pretty sure, she was the one who beat the Thoroughbred stallion, Truly Truckle, in a California match race. [I'm going from memory so if I'm incorrect, please let me know!]

Yup, a lot of the good ones go back to Joe Reed.

 

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 September 18, 2005 5:54 PM

Kingfisher... black overo foundation stallion... unknown pedigree but a helluva performance horse & sire.

Let me see what I've got on file... I'll be back!  

[PS... I really do have a life!!! ]

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Kingfisher September 18, 2005 8:15 PM

kingfisher

As I said, Kingfisher was a black overo stallion of unknown pedigree. This was in the "60s & the APHA [American Paint Horse Assoc.] was a fledgling registry. I'm going to guess that he might have been a thrown away Quarter Horse crop-out colt. Don't forget that, back then, there were QH breeders who'd literally destroy an excessive white foal since AQHA wouldn't register them. [Through the years, the AQHA white rule became much more relaxed until, in 2004, it was completely removed. The 2004 AQHA convention was very cool! ] Kingfisher is considered by many to be a foundation of the APHA. 
 
Kingfisher earned 15 points in halter [with multiple grands & reserves]; 2 - reining, 7- western pleasure & 5 - western riding. Of his 84 foals, 13 were shown. 
.
In my mind, Kingfisher's best son was Buck McCue [pictured below]. Out of Gypsy McCue [Pony McCue 2X2], Buck McCue earned 11 halter points with 2 grands & 7 reserves. Of his 243 foals, 21 were shown, many of whom excelled at both halter & performance. Their influence can still be seen in Paint Horses, today.  
buck mccue   
 
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Kingfisher September 19, 2005 10:01 PM

Thank you, Barb, for the pictures & information on Kingfisher... I'm sorry that it has taken me so long to send this "thank you"!  I will keep the information and archives in the file with the rest of my mare's stuff...

Thanks, again!  Happy horsemanship!

-Krista

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Kingfisher September 19, 2005 10:05 PM

By the way... ever heard of any of these others?  My mare's dam is a QH...

QH:  Dark's Choice, After Dark, Cat A Go Go

...just curious...    and still amazed at the amount of knowledge you posess!  WOW...

Thanks, again!

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Underwood Horses September 21, 2005 9:49 AM

Huh, for some reason, I've a pic of "After Dark" in my files. I thought it sounded familiar... I must have researched that line at one time. [And yes, I really do have a life! Having an obsessive personality can be good at times!
 
After Dark was a 1945 buckskin by Garcia Silverstone & out of the Thoroughbred mare, Night Cry by Witchmount by Broomstick [one of the great Thoroughbred race horses & race sires of the early 1900s.] Registered as a dun but actually believed to be palomino [they misidentified a lot back then], Garcia Silivertone by Silvertone was a product of the R.L. Underwood program. His dam was by Red Buck, a grandson of Peter McCue. His sire, Silvertone, was by Dunny Boy. All in all, we're looking at the very roots of the American Quarter Horse registry.
 
I've posted pics of the three stallions, below. I particularly like the way Silvertone is put together.  Nice family!
after dark
After Dark
garcia silvertone
Garcia Silvertone
silverone
Silvertone
 
 
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Old Tom Cat September 21, 2005 9:54 AM

Krista, you asked about Cat A Go Go. Although he doesn't seem to have a performance record, himself, he does show up on the distaff pedigree of several good reining horses. Interestingly, most of them were youth horses. Cat A Go Go was by Old Tom Cat, one of my favorites!
 
Old Tom Cat was by Robin Reed [a linebred Joe Reed stallion] & out of Tadpole's daughter, Little Meow [a linebred Peter McCue mare]. No wonder he was good! Old Tom Cat ran AAA on the track. He then went on to earn 30 halter points in the show ring & his AQHA Championship. He was an outstanding sire of performance horses & producing daughters. Like many Leo bred horses [Robin Reed was a Leo son], Old Tom Cat had a fair amount of chrome & I'm guessing he was a sabino. Consequently, he had many crop-out foals & grandfoals who ended up in the APHA registry. [I used to have one!]
 
Look at the pic of Old Tom Cat. Super balance!!! He's got substance without being coarse, a beautiful, sloping shoulder, good hip, deep heartgirth, attractive head... If anyone comes across a mare with [fairly] up-close breeding to Old Tom Cat, please give me a shout!         
old tom cat     
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My mare's blood lines September 21, 2005 8:19 PM

I never hoped to get so much information on my mare!  Thank you, Barb!  You are truly an amazing sweetie!

I didn't realize that my horse had so much running blood in her...  I was just asking my uncle (last night) if he knew what kind of horse Dark's Choice was - he was under the impression that he was a pleasure horse.  So I was pleasantly surprised at the information you've posted... THANKS!

She is the first horse that I've owned & I bought her on disposition, price, & color... not much else.  (bought her unbroke @ 2)  So I just wanted a horse... I've gotten luckier than I could have hoped in her breeding!  (COL @ dumb luck)

I'll keep my eyes & ears open for mares with "Old Tom Cat" breeding close in their lineage for you!  Thanks again!

-Krista

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 September 23, 2005 5:33 AM

Krista,

You're welcome! What's your mares registered name? I'll pull it up on the APHA site & take a look.  

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My Mare September 23, 2005 10:17 AM

JDS Trouble is her registered name...  and thank you.  I'm looking forward to what you have to say...   (I'll have to get a better picture of her for you to see... maybe I'll be able to on Sunday.)  I can't believe how much the picture of Kingfisher that you had posted reminds me of her!  (I do know that she is just a basic pony - nothing halter quality here... ha ha - I don't think she'd stand for all of the attention, anyway.) 

   

I have to say - you really seem to be an incredible person, Barb.  It's rare to find people like that in this world, but easier on this site, apparently. 

Take care...

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 September 24, 2005 7:34 AM

Hey, flattery will get you everything! You're welcome, Krista!

OK... JDS Trouble has some super heavy foundation breeding in both registries,- AQHA & APHA. We've looked at the Kingfisher line [I wish we knew his pedigree] & his influence on the Paint horse. I noticed that JDS Trouble also traces, on her top line, to more foundation Q-Horses like Dan Casement's "Red Dog" [a 1916 son of the Tb, Uncle Jimmy Grey, & a line bred Traveler mare].

"El-Danino" [broodmare sire to Dakota Kingfisher] has reining & western riding point.   

Chosen Kitty, JDS Trouble's dam, is by the son of Old Tom Cat & out of a Waggoners Rainy Day & Bert. Again, very solid breeding.

This mare has the kind of foundation blood I like... lots of running horses in the pedigree. If you think about it, many of these horses were shown after their racing careers. That tells me they were probably sound & sane. You don't see much of that anymore. It's not that I don't think the horses are capable of it, I think it's a matter of money & specialization. Why take the risk of hauling a horse to shows after he's proved himself on the track? I'd like to see that mindset change. Who knows...

Ya got a nice mare, Krista! Are you going to breed her, eventually?  Best of luck with her!

              

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 September 26, 2005 9:27 AM

Hey, Barb -

Thanks for the INCREDIBLE compliment on my mare.  It really means something coming from you.  Since she is a paint, I get a lot of slack from the people that I barrel race with.  After all, Quarter Horses are still the predominant breed for this sport.

Because of the sport I compete in, I probably see more horses off of the track put to use after their racing career than in most other disciplines. (Unfortunately, many of them haven't been given enough time with the basics to help settle their minds down and end up quite dangerous.)  It would probably take a very dedicated trainer to turn a horse from off of the track into something mellow enough to perform any discipline other than speed work.  (Not that it wouldn't be worth it, but so many trainers are out for the money and the big futurities available to young horses.)

I need to get my mare back on the APHA circuit next year and get her ROM's in barrels and poles.  I'd like us both to learn some other sports, too - like team penning, team roping, & reining.  (Maybe this winter...)

I would like to breed her, someday.  Maybe to my uncle's stud (Wait to Cash In) with Dash for Cash as a grand-daddy.  I'm not sure if I will ever be in a situation to do so, though.  Since she is already 11, I worry about starting to breed her at too old of an age, if there is such a thing.  (And I'm not quite ready to stop competing on her - I don't have as much confidence in other horses - I trust her completely.  If she stumbles, I know that she will do anything in her power to recover from it and save us from a fall.)

Thanks, again, for re-enforcing my pride in my mare!  Now I know that she's got the breeding to back up everything else that I already knew about her!

May you always ride with a warm breeze at your back.

-Krista

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 September 30, 2005 9:03 AM

Hey, Krista, you're welcome! We've gotten a lot of older [in their teens] maiden mares in foal. It's really not all that uncommon  with performance horses & one of the factors that makes embryo transplants attractive. The biggest challenge is the mares who have been on a regime involving synthetic hormones like regumate or any form of steroids.

Good luck!

  

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Leo September 30, 2005 9:19 AM

[I just realized that, while we've referred to him, we haven't really looked at Leo. Mea culpa... mea culpa... ] 

Leo
Joe Reed II - Joe Reed X Little Fanny - Joe Reed
1940 - 1967; AQHA # P - 1,335
leo

 
Inbred to Joe Reed, many consider Leo to be Joe Reed II's finest son. Overcoming injuries, Leo earned a race ROM on the track [he ran 220 yards in 12 seconds flat] but made his greatest impact in the breeding shed. He's a leading sire of  race ROM qualifiers [211] & AQHA Champions [24].  Leo was also the broodmare sire of AQHA Supreme Champions & is thought to have carried the 'X' factor. Considered a foundation Quarter Horse stallion, Leo is in the AQHA Hall of Fame.  
 
I remember reading an article that included excerpts of an interview with Leo's owner, Bud Warren. When asked if he ever 'culled' mares that were brought to Leo's court, his reply was "No." He then went on to say that just maybe those mare owners knew more than he did & they were willing to put their money [ie - stud fee] up to prove it. Considering Leo's extrodinary sire record, that philosophy  seemed to have worked. They say the mark of a great stallion is the ability to stamp his foals. Leo did!
 
Perry, Oklahoma features a park & statue dedicated to this great horse's  memory.
.
[PS... As a kid, the first Q-Horse I ever knowingly rode was a crop-out Leo son. A lead pony on the track & he showed me that a horse really can move like a cat. He was amazing,- athletic, sound, good minded, smart... Hey, he was a Quarter Horse! ]    
 
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I love Leo! October 01, 2005 11:12 AM

One of my favorites as well Barb! Probably that Joe Reed connection.

Let's see, I've got one of his daughters, Barbara 2 above--she was a great mare.

Dynamo Leo (Leo x Dynaflow Miss): Don't have his report from AQHA yet, but know he was at least a sire of a racing money earner, AQHA Champion, Racing ROM sire and a sire of a halter point earner--Dynamo Leo II. Thought I had a pic of Dynamo Leo II but can't find it--he was heavily Leo inbred! His Dam Leorita Rose was by a son of Leo (Overtime Leo) and out of a daughter of Leo (Rosa Leorita)

Dynamo Leo

Robin Reed (Leo x Sue Reed--daughter of Joe Reed)

Robin Reed

Don't have Robin Reed's report either, but know he was a racing money earner, earned a racing ROM and was quite a sire as well. One of his sons, Robin Whiskers, was a sire of a Racing Winner and money earner, a sire of a halter point earner, performances point earners and NCHA money earner(s).

I really like the below pic of Leo as well!

Leo

AQHA Hall of Fame. Racing ROM. Sire of Racing Winners, Sire of Stakes Winners, Sire of Racing Money Earners ($605,265), Racing ROM Sire, Racing 2 Year Old ROM Sire, Racing 80+ ROM Sire, Racing 90+ ROM Sire, Racing 100+ ROM Sire, Superior Racing Sire, Racing World Champion Sire, Sire of Halter Point Earners, Sire of Performance Point Earners, Performance ROM Sire, Sire of 24 AQHA Champions, Supreme Champion Sire, Superior Halter Sire, Superior Performance Sire, Sire of NCHA Money Earners ($28,132.45), PHBA Halter Point Earning Sire, PHBA Performance Point Earning Sire, Sire of High Point Winner.

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Doc Bar October 13, 2005 2:53 PM



Don't know much about him, but I know he is famous.
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 October 13, 2005 2:59 PM

Having just researched a few famous Quarter horses, I like the look of Doc Bar the most. I especially like the picture detailed in an earlier post.  [ send green star]
 
 October 19, 2005 6:44 AM

Doc Bar has always been one of my favorites, too, Sharon. [Billy is partial to DB horses.] Often, they can be a bit on the short side but they can sure be athletic! 

Some of the best niches on Doc Bar was Poco Bueno & Leo. 

[Since there's so many pics on this thread,  I've changed the order to ascending. I hate dial-up!

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 October 19, 2005 7:05 AM

Go Man Go

               Go Man Go

Go Man Go was a 1953 chestnut stallion by the Thoroughbred, Top Deck [by Equestrian] & out of Light Foot Sis. Light Foot Sis was by the Thoroughbred, Very Wise, & out of a granddaughter of the great Cajun race horse, Old DJ.

Go Man Go was a race horse! He had 27 wins including the Autumn Champioship & the Pacific Coast QHRA Futurity. An AQHA Superior race horse, he was the 1955, 1956 & 1957 World Champion Quarter Running Horse. [In 1955, he was the first two year old to be awarded this honor.]  

His foals carried on the tradition. He sired numerous stakes winners & Superior race horses. Several of his get found their way to the show pen. He sired Superior & Register of Merit performance horses as well as the AQHA Champion, Go Andy Go [1968 stallion out of a Mr Bar None mare].   

Check out his photo. Again, lots of balance with super angles. Look at that shoulder... no wonder he could stretch out! 

Go Man Go was registered as a roan but that was something of a misnomer. He was actually a chestnut rabicano, not a "true" roan.

 

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 November 09, 2005 2:52 PM

Barb I love this thread. A lot of reading but well worth it.  [ send green star]
 
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