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Groups > Religion and Spiritual Beliefs and Doctrine, Debating personal truths > Discussions > Topic: Sharing your views respectfully
Topic: Sharing your views respectfully

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Raven S.	Sharing your views respectfully October 06, 2005 6:40 PM Many Blessings~ I thought maybe we needed a post like this here. It seems many of us are not being very nice or respectful. I am not trying to make rules or yell at anyone here in Shewolfs group But I just think maybe we should all be reminded and maybe give some thought about how we share our views here. We all need to be careful of what we say and how we say it, myself included. Maybe we all need to try alittle harder to be more respectful of others beliefs. There are a few topics that are often very difficult to talk about. Religion and Politics are the main ones lol. Mostly because they are topics which can be very personal and often people live by them and hold them as their own personal truths and rights. I also feel they are topics which people often have a hard time actually understanding the other side. We know what makes sense to us and sometimes a different view just doesn't make sense or we can't understand it completely even if we try. People can also be deeply passionate about their beliefs. And passion is not a bad thing at all! But we all must realize that we are not the only ones around and others feel the exact same way we do about their own paths. We should always try and treat others the way we want them to treat us. Treat them, their path, and their beliefs with respect. While this is a debate group. You can debate, have deep discussions and even disagree without being disrespectful. Without calling names or being hateful. I think spiritual people should embrace the love their religion is about by showing compassion and respectful towards others. Will anything ever be accomplished with petty name calling and disrespectful words? I don't think debating should be a back and forth arguement over whose God is the best or whose God can kick whose Gods butt lol. We aren't children sitting around the playground here! Debates and disagreements can help us to learn more about others paths, our own path, the reasons why we believe the way we do, etc... I think we should not approach the subject to prove everyone else wrong or show them they are stupid. But to give our own view of how we feel. Maybe find common ground, two things you both share or agree on and build from there. Maybe say, I see what you mean as my religious belief also says God is great but for me personally I think we don't always understand that greatness. I feel this way because... Or point out what you do agree with. It is so much easier to have a discussion with someone when you can first find that common ground. And it isn't as hard as you may think. Understand that you both are spiritual people and you both are trying to express your view of the Divine. You don't have to make people see the truth, or facts, or prove them wrong! People can and will make up their own minds. Even if we are telling the actual truth, after we tell them and show our evidence they still have to make the choice to belief it or not. We can not force them. And we have to accept that no matter what we say or how right we or how much we think we are right people will disagree with us. And that is ok. People can disagree and the world will not end over this little debate If you shared your point and you feel or know you are right and they can't or won't accept it, move on. Please stop the personal attacks. Just try to be more respectful to others and their views. If you get so upset or angered about a debate online in this group that you need to make personal attacks or say something not very nice, then I think maybe you just need to back off. Go do something else for alittle while. Maybe just go back and reread the entire thread and try to understand why they are saying or why they think the way they do. Maybe you will find something interesting or get a better understanding of them and their path. Also maybe try writing your reply first on like notepad and read it. Imagine if someone said that to you or about your path, how would you feel? I don't know, but I think some people are going alittle too far in this group. Our religions and spirituality can be deeply personal and sharing something so personal about yourself can really open you up. And it is very mean to attack someone for sharing their beliefs just because you can not understand them or disagree with them. So yes disagree and debate but try to be respectful about it. [ send green star]
Myindians J.	October 06, 2005 6:59 PM As Co-host here ... I will say only once... Be nice and Respectful... I have not been here much due to my brother in the hospital....... I will be honest here.... It ticks me off to see people not being able to share their religion and to be open without getting nasty....... Sometimes it makes me sick on my stomach........ We have to post over and over again.. to please be respectful.... No wonder why so many children do not learn respect... Grown-ups can not even be respectful.... If you can not say something nice or debate your belief in a respectful manner ... do not post.... Disrespectful post will be deleted.... Warnings will be sent out... Now.. don't take it as you can not voice your opinions.... Please do.... but be nice and RESPECTFUL...... I know you can tell I've had a bad week or two..... I just want to see some love out there... Myindians P.S I see that someone used "WTF" Please tell me that is not what I think it means... "What the F" If so... I for one will not tolerate that kind of talk.... For goodness sake ... This group is about religion.... Have Respect for others.... Someone please tell me if what I think is true or false.... [ send green star]
Raven S.	October 06, 2005 7:03 PM I am sorry to hear about your brother. I hope he will be ok. [ send green star]
Myindians J.	October 06, 2005 7:08 PM Raven.. you did not answer my question on the "WTF" [ send green star]
Myindians J.	October 06, 2005 7:11 PM Opps I forgot to say thank you about my brother... He is better... It's just been a long 2 weeks. LOL [ send green star]
Joben J.	October 06, 2005 7:17 PM It means exactly what you think it does - glad the calavry finally showed up, it's been a little lonely around here lately.... [ send green star]
Raven S.	October 06, 2005 7:20 PM I don't know I have a dirty mouth myself sometimes lol. I think it depends on the context. This is kindof a mature group for deeper discussions and debates. So I could see slipping and saying some language like that when you are being expressive. But it can also be very disrespectful. And I think people should be respectful and try not to use such language. Because atleast to me the term wtf sounds very disrespectful and almost as if you are saying the person is stupid. It wasn't very nice at all. I don't know how Shewolf feels about language like that... wtf does stand for what the f*ck though [ send green star]
Ketutar J.	What is disrespectful? October 07, 2005 5:14 AM The main reason for that people "aren't being respectful" is that people disagree about what is disrespectful. For some people it seems to be disrespectful to disagree and some people think it's disrespectful to state ones opinion, when it is different or opposite to the other ones. Some people think it's disrespectful to critizice other peoples' beliefs. I have heard that I am being disrespectful for saying that I don't think Jesus ever existed, and that I think there are inconsistencies in the Bible, and explaining why I think this... I have also been told that my Goddess is as real as Santa Claus, that witchcraft is living in fantasies and that my God is the Devil - the persons saying these things didn't find it the least disrespectful. Then there is the "I didn't mean to be disrespectful" excuse... Well, excuse me. Road to hell is paved with good intentions, as they say. One could suggest that people could treat others as they themselves wish to be treated, but the "do unto others" rule isn't working. I have heard people explain, that "calling Jesus a fairytale is disrespectful, because he isn't a fairytale, but calling Goddess a fairytale isn't disrespectful, because She is a fairytale". The thing is that we simply don't know what is going to be perceived as disrespectful. So - how ever careful of what we say, how we say it, to whom, when, where and why, we still might be perceived as disrespectful. So instead of trying to get people stop being disrespectful, it might work better to ask people to apologize when someone expresses getting offended, hurt, feeling disrespectfully treated and so on. That might get people open up a little and say straight out that "I find that disrespectful, because..." AND it might be a good idea to ask people to take it easy. As said, most of the people in this group hold their God, religion and spirituality very dear. So when you feel offended, take a deep breath and let it go. It just might be that you just FEEL offended, that there really isn't any offense there. That's one thing I have learned during the time. There will always be people around who think your personal values and beliefs are crap, and they will say so too. So it's no use getting offended. Hugs, Ket [ send green star]
Myindians J.	October 07, 2005 9:09 AM Respect means so many different things... A feeling of appreciative, often deferential regard; esteem. See Synonyms at regard. The state of being regarded with honor or esteem. Willingness to show consideration or appreciation. respects Polite expressions of consideration or deference: pay one's respects. A particular aspect, feature, or detail: In many respects this is an important decision You know... I see your point Ket.... Some do not know how someone else see disrepectful...... or respectful However I know for me... I hate it when people has to use terms like "WTF" or start the name calling or accussing someone of being crazy or stupid to have to get their point accross.... To me this shows disrespect..... To me this show the person that says it.. does not care if they hurt someone's feeling as long as they get to say what they want to say... Having NO consideration for others... I think most of the rules here are clear on the home page.... Be respectful and know that because it's your truth or your belief then that does not make it someone else's beliefs....or truth.... try to learn and respect others beliefs the same as you want them to respect yours... If they show disrespect to yours then let us handle it... If we do not see it... bring it to our attention.... I personally never got upset if someone said they did not believe Jesus existed or that they didn't believe in him.... I get upset when people thanks it's a time to put down Christians just because WE believe in him... a time to point out all the wrongs Christians may have or still does in the name of Jesus... I'm not just a Christian.. I'm a person with beliefs and truths of my own.. I'm not the one that did the bad things in Jesus names... Don't stereotype me and other Christians just because of some...I always try to think of others... I always try to see others views... If we do not respect other's views... how can we learn anything from someone else....about their religion.... How can we compare if we do not see how their religion makes them feel or how they see it... If we get so offensive..... how can we open up our minds to what they say.... if we can not then we can not learn... When talking about your beliefs.. states as so.. Your Beliefs... this is what Co-host and owner ask.... Do not put down someone else's beliefs... Ask questions ... Debuke but do it by showing facts and research.. not because you feel it's wrong.. Yes state your feelings as your feelings but not as facts... I hope all this makes sense... I personally do not want to see "WTF" and talk like that.... If someone does then speak up and we can take a vote or something... I feel most do not care to see that talk here on a religion group... To me that shows disrespect... but hey.. my opinion here... Myindians [ send green star]
Myindians J.	October 07, 2005 9:11 AM Opps thank you to the co-host here that tries to keep peace... Myindians [ send green star]
Nancy D.	Ket October 07, 2005 10:13 AM Thanks, Ket, for asking "what is disrespectful?" How can disagreement be considered as disrespectful? There are nearly seven billion people in the world today, and it's a sure bet that that means there are nearly seven billion points of view. If we take offense each time someone disagrees with us we're going to be emotionally distraught every moment of our lives. My best friend and I used to discuss issues over the phone. I would often disagree with her and tell her so, and she certainly felt comfortable disagreeing with me. We did agree, on lots of things, but there are some things I won't back down on, anymore than Stuart, or Michael, or Dov, or Ket, or David, etc., will. Why should we back down if we are discussing our own aspects of the truth? I'm not going to give in just to be "nice." I don't go out of my way to argue, but I do like debate, and can't see where any of us, in the posts above have not been respectful. Does being respectful mean I have to kowtow to someone else's point of view, submerging my own? I don't think so. If that's wrong, then what is a debate about? The "disrespectful" thing is very subjective, as you, Ket, have mentioned. I've learned that it's fine to disagree, but it's definitely verboten to hit someone over the head because of that disagreement. I don't like shouting, either, because it obfuscates and muddies the water, as one reacts to the shouting instead of responding to the core of the message. But simple disagreement, and questioning the other's responses? What's not nice about that? Are we afraid of hurting someone's feelings? Are we afraid of having our feelings hurt? Then we shouldn't be taking part in a debate theme. These are just some of my thoughts on this subject. My thinking on many of the themes on these boards is not necessarily shared by everyone. That's what the debate is about, learning what others think and then discussing the differences. Namaste, ND [ send green star]
Myindians J.	October 07, 2005 10:20 AM You can Debate without Disrespect.... Just because you disagree with your good friend... does that mean you call her crazy.. stupid or say she is completely wrong or do you say.. I know that is your point but my is different...and tell her how u feel... Like we have said over and over... State things as your beliefs and your views... Not the only truth.... Myindians [ send green star]
Nancy D.	Myindians October 07, 2005 10:23 AM Thanks for spelling out your ideas about respect. That's a big help. Namaste, ND [ send green star]
Cody S.	I hope this isn't directed at me October 07, 2005 10:30 AM I kept my cool under david and michael's constant attempts to undermine my position. But as far as I know its not directed at me at all. [ send green star]
Raven S.	October 07, 2005 10:55 AM It isn't directed at any one person but to the group as a whole. Thanks, Ket, for asking "what is disrespectful?" How can disagreement be considered as disrespectful? As I said, people can disagree and even debate without being disrespectful. There is nothing wrong with saying I don't agree with you, or I feel this way instead or sharing your view or why you disagree with someone elses view. But people are going beyond just doing that. People have been putting others down, some name calling and treating people like they are stupid or their beliefs are stupid. That is disrespectful. You can disagree without calling someone an idiot. You can say I don't share your same views about religion without saying your religion is stupid. Does being respectful mean I have to kowtow to someone else's point of view, submerging my own? Nope. Being respectful means disagreeing but still acknowledging that the person you are talking to has feelings and has a deep belief in it. Imagine if your friend was trying to follow their dream. But you felt their dream was stupid. Would you say to your friend that what they care so deeply about and have their whole heart and soul in, is just stupid? I sure hope not lol. I think we would tell them that we don't get it, maybe even express our concerns or ask them if they are sure that is what they wanna do lol but we would support our friend and know that they care so deeply about something and that it is important to them. That is the difference When you are putting someone's beliefs down, or attacking them for their beliefs or for not agreeing with you. That isn't just disagreeing or debating. It becomes just attacking. And is disrespectful. While obviously something may be seen as disrespectful to one person and not to another. This thread is just to try and remind people to stop and think. Ask themselves would I like it if someone said what I am saying about me or my beliefs? [ send green star]
Myindians J.	October 07, 2005 11:02 AM Adram.. No, it was directed so many people of this group... It's pretty much what we say over and over really... Just talked to Shewolf.... Of course she said the same... Adram what I ask of you is....to please not use "WTF" or things like that here..... I personally don't like the word "F" and I'm sure others don't.... I use to use it all the time until I had kids... I heard my child repeat it and realized it shouldn't be said all the time... It's my opinion but I and I believe many others would appreciate to watch the language.... Believe me.. we are always asking for everyone to show respect.... Just liek I said.. address things as being your views and your beliefs..your truth... NOT THE TRUTH OF ALL!! Myindians [ send green star]
Joben J.	October 07, 2005 11:09 AM MyIndians - I just sent you two notes in the introductions please take a look, thanks Johanna [ send green star]
Myindians J.	October 07, 2005 12:24 PM I have replied sweet Joben... Myindians [ send green star]
Shewolf S.	October 07, 2005 12:30 PM Thank you all so much for this thread... [ send green star]
Stuart H.	What is disrespectful? October 07, 2005 1:50 PM Attack the argument, not the one proposing it. I think we do a pretty good job of that. Just because tempers flare does not mean there is a problem, so long as the temperment is directed at the argument, and not the one proposing the argument. These attacks are called ad hominen and come in all manners. Ad hominem attacks are not always empassioned, enraged insults, but can be very subtle, disguised as reasonable arguments, and can even be true. But an ad hominem attack can usually be exposed by asking a simple question: Does this premise have anything to do with the argument at hand? Its a simple yes, or no. If yes, the argument is valid, if no the argument is usually ad hominem. We're all guilty of engaging in ad hominem arguments, in part, because when confronted with a solid argument it becomes the next logical step to attack the argument by discrediting the one argueing it. Preventing such arguments is impossible, but it is possible to recognize and attack them. So, the first step is to understand what forms ad hominem arguments take. Again, I stress, I think we do a pretty good job of avoiding the ad hominem, but we're not perfect. Perhaps this will help. For further reference, I will begin outlining the ad hominem argument forms when I return from work. [ send green star]
Stuart H.	Falacies of Relevance October 07, 2005 8:01 PM Argumentum ad Baculum (Appeal to force, or Appeal to the "stick") Arguer A proposes a conclusion, and then threatens Arguer B. Argumentum ad Misericordiam (Appeal to Pity) Arguer A proposes a conclusion, and then evokes pity with Arguer B. Argumentum ad Populum (Appeal to the People, also called "Social Atavism") Arguer A proposes a conclusion, and then plays upon the needs of Arguer B, or the people. Argumentum ad Hominem (Argument against the Person) ad Hominem Abusive: Arguer A proposes a conclusion. Arguer B rejects the conclusion by verbally attacking Arguer B. ad Hominem Circumstantial: Argue A proposes a conclusion. Arguer B rejects the conclusion, and justifies rejection of said conclusion by attempting to undermine the credibility of Arguer A. tu quoque (you too): Arguer A proposes a conclusion. Arguer B rejects the conclusion by implying Arguer A is guilty of violating the said conclusion. Arguer B attempts to make Arguer A appear to be hypocritical. Accident: "The fallacy of accident is committed when a general rule is applied to a specific case it was not intended to cover" (Hurley 2005). Straw Man: Arguer A proposes a conclusion, and then distorts the position of Arguer B. Missing the Point: Premise A concludes Conclusion A, but Premise A is cited to conclude Conclusion B, which is vaguely related to Conclusion A. Red Herring: Arguer A proposes a conclusion, and then attempts to draw Arguer B off track into an argument which supports Arguer A's conclusion, [ send green star]
River W.	October 14, 2005 2:01 PM I am always respectful, but I see there is much disagreement about what "respectful" is. Interesting. [ send green star]
Myindians J.	October 14, 2005 3:02 PM Disrespect like described above... IN this group....... Is saying your belief is the only belief... Calling names or calling people idiots... people stupid.... Or Saying someone's else's views are wrong...... You should Post your views and why you believe them... Post what you believe are Facts and then let others view them and allow them to make opinions without Saying they are wrong and how your view is the only right one .... Read and try to understand why they see it like that... You do not have to believe it but Dang try to at listen..... Even though you may not understand how they feel about it.... Believe me... I really could get nasty right now... But you know I respect you all to much to argue about stuff that no matter what I say... you may disagree so why argue about it... Myindians [ send green star]
GODDESSDIVA D.	MYINDIANS October 14, 2005 3:23 PM Blessings to you and yours .....Its good to read that your "Brother " is well.... GD [ send green star]	(Member Is Blocked)
River W.	October 14, 2005 8:32 PM If someone truely believes it, and says it nonconfrontationally, what is wrong with saying one's way is the right way or only way. Why censor a person. Isn't that just being intolerant? [ send green star]
anonymous	October 14, 2005 9:34 PM "If someone truely believes it, and says it nonconfrontationally, what is wrong with saying one's way is the right way or only way. Why censor a person. Isn't that just being intolerant?" The problem is that by claiming that my Faith or Path is the ONLY (UNIVERSALLY) valid one, I am automatically saying that all other Faiths are invalid, thereby disqualifying all other Paths as paths to G-d - and even if I BELIEVE it to be so, I am speaking about Beliefs and not facts and stating BELIEFS to be the ONLY (UNIVERSAL) truth is not only impossible, it's arrogant - therefore all I can really say is that it's the only Path for ME, and that others may have other Paths, if I want to stay respectful of others. There is nothing intolerant about asking people to treat each other respectfully. [report anonymous abuse]
Rick S.	I agree with brother bear October 15, 2005 3:16 AM I haven't been responding here much because there has become a certain air about many postings that suggest this is the only truth... and that there will be no other truths. With many postings it has gotten to the point that the only way to debate some individuals ideas is to completely deconstruct their faith system. Effectively you have to destroy them as believers. It's not something that I find any pleasure in. There is a monumental arrogance in the belief that you OWN the truth. It denies anyone else's stance and is.. even if unintended.. is a slap in the face. So it needs to be re-iterated that this is a forum for the SHARING of ideas and that respect needs to be addressed to an opposing point of view. For me I'm not hugely offended by such arrogance of belief, I just find it sad and if the other can't or won't respect my view then I just won't participate. There are other forums to attend, and this concerns me a little that many others here might just do the same... but wander away and not come back. So there needs on occasion to be a bringing back to focus the whole original theme of this site. Simple respect, sharing, and nothing more... you don't need to "buy" the other's view just understand that we don't all see the world through the same eyes. I'm still hanging in here with you guys.... but I'm not participating lately because I just don't get this whole creationism kick. There seems to be a bit of an obsession with it here. It's a rather odd and for the most part uniquely American idea. Other countries have their followers of this Christian branch of belief but not to the rabid quality that you Americans seem to have. I really don't get it... this near animosity to science. Maybe it's because in the West you've lost the connection between the spiritual and the scientific. In Hinduism and Buddhism there is a mutual compatability... neither threatens the other. At least not if you well and truly understand either faith system. God created the world and the world created God.. the two are the one and same. So I quess some of it I understand.. just not this.. as I said aversion to science. Well blessings to you if Creationism is what you believe in. So I'll keep popping back in and out until there is something that I can join in with. I am glad though that you are addressing the lapses of respect that are occuring more often. Blessings to all... and remember the moment that you think you've "got" the truth... it turns into a mere concept and you've lost the reality of it. Concepts are all coloured by our prejudices and fears. The real truth is greater than we can own. Om namah Shivayah [ send green star]
Ketutar J.	How do you say "nonconfrontationally" October 15, 2005 3:54 AM that "what you believe in is wrong, simply because it isn't what I believe in"? Because that is what you say, when you say "what I believe is the Only, One, Absolute Truth". Ket [ send green star]
Myindians J.	October 15, 2005 4:10 AM Shadow Bear and RIck..... WOW Thank you so much..... You really summed it up....You two are always a joy to get to know... Hurting someone's Feelings is not Respecting them or let me say this... Starting a fight just to prove your point is disrespectful.... and it never gets you any where,,,,,, Rick please start a new thread of something that interests you.... Miss you... Myindians [ send green star]
River W.	Agree to disagree October 15, 2005 9:26 AM By the "Law Of Contradictions" not all truths can be true. Something can't be both hot and cold at the same time. Therefore, some held truths by default must not be true. I see your points and will politely agree to disagree and move on. Thanks. [ send green star]
Rick S.	aww shucks m'am October 15, 2005 10:03 AM golleeee missy.. you're making me blush... Thanks Myindians you made me smile. I'll ponder some and conjure up a thing that interests me. Though I'm back from a long meditative retreat and am having a harrrrrrrrrrd time reconnecting with the mundane world. It was a rare blessing I recieved on this retreat. OOOOOO.. good comment River...good comment. Though in some schools of thought all things contain the seeds of the other. The false truths then contain some element of the real truth but that just hurts my brain to even try and type it. Yeah, though you summed up what i was trying to say very succinctly. I also like the way you said about disagreeing... I think that was what our gracious host wants us to do and if we can't then take it out behind the barn and handle it ourselves.... just not here. It disrespects the rest. So good comment. Thank you. [ send green star]
River W.	Tetutar October 15, 2005 10:09 AM One says it politely. Like say, "I understand that you believe that the earth is flat, but I know it to be round and I stand by my opinion as the only correct one." Simple. [ send green star]
Nancy D.	River October 15, 2005 10:43 AM Yes, we've had the "absolute truth" discussion ad nauseum on other threads. There's always someone ready to hoist a red flag. And here's one I'd like to hoist. You wrote: "One says it politely. Like say, "I understand that you believe that the earth is flat, but I know it to be round and I stand by my opinion as the only correct one." Simple. " Whoo-ee, not so simple, but arrogant, dismissive and incredibly condescending. This is the "one true religion" stance that proclaims we have divine guidance while you have the right to be wrong. Not respectful at all. I wonder if you were tongue-in-cheeking it? Namaste, ND [ send green star]
River W.	Nancy October 15, 2005 11:27 AM Mine was not a religious statement in any way. I was making a respectful direct response to a direct question. Since the question was asked, I had assumed the writer was inviting an answer. That's all. BTW, what are you calling religion? According to most dictionaries, religion is the service and worship of God or the supernatural, a commitment or devotion to faith or observance, a personal set or institutionalized system of attitudes, beliefs, and practices, or a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith. By these widely accepted definitions, most of the posts I have read here are some form of religious expression. It would appear that it is not religion that offends, only certain specific religions. Is that correct? [ send green star]
Nancy D.	River October 15, 2005 12:33 PM You asked for my definition of religion. To me, religion is the invocative appeal of humanity which leads to the evocative response of the divine Life (that some call "God"). It's also the recognition by the part - that is the individual - of its relationship to the Whole. It's a process of realignment between the divine and Its manifestation in the lower kingdoms. It's the process of moving from the illusion of duality to the reality of Synthetic Oneness. I think religion can be expressed by the group or the individual, informally or formally. It's not the specific religions, per se, that can be offensive to some (though not to others, highlighting the subjectiveness of such a process), but how they are played out in society. For instance, to me, the monotheistic, patriarchal expressions are highly suspect because of their tendency to repress and oppress women. That might not bother some people. It's not the teachings of the founders of those religions that are, to me, at fault, but the followers and interpreters of those teachings. For instance, the Golden Rule is taught in nearly all religious systems and practices, but how many people really follow it? The teachers, the teaching was not "wrong", just abstract and idealistic, and we're still, for the most part, catching up to it, whichever "it" we're talking about, after thousands of years. That's probably enough rambling. Good conversation. Namaste, ND [ send green star]
River W.	Huh? October 15, 2005 1:50 PM Nancy, I have two Master's Degree's and will have a PhD by year's end, but I cannot make head or tails out of what you just posted. Sorry. [ send green star]
Raven S.	October 15, 2005 2:05 PM Well I understood everything you said Nancy perfectly and agree as well [ send green star]
River W.	Raven October 15, 2005 2:13 PM Mine was not an attempt to attack Nancy. It just seemed so nebulous and ambiguos to me that my mind could not get a handle on it. If you can explain it all in common, understandable, concrete terms that would be a big help to me. [ send green star]
Michael H.	October 15, 2005 4:29 PM River, It's good to have you here I think the confusion you're having is because Nancy is expressing her metaphysical view of reality. For instance, a naturalist would be a metaphysical materialist: they belief that the material world is all there is, and that there is nothing divine about it. A Christian (like myself) would argue that both God and the material world exist, but that they are distinct from each other, because the created order was created by God out of nothing. The technical name for this view is Thomistic pluralism. A metaphysical monist, however, asserts that all reality is really divine substance, so that there is no distinction between God and the created order. Nancy is a pantheist, so her metaphysic falls in the latter category. HTH, [ send green star]
Nancy D.	Raven October 15, 2005 4:31 PM Thanks for understanding. River, some things simply cannot be expressed any more concretely. Namaste, ND [ send green star]
Nancy D.	Michael October 15, 2005 4:34 PM Actually I'm more panentheist than pantheist, but who's quibbling? Namaste, ND [ send green star]
anonymous	October 15, 2005 5:23 PM "believe that the earth is flat, but I know it to be round and I stand by my opinion as the only correct one." Simple." No, not simple at all. By using the word 'believe' about the other person's equally KNOWN fact/belief, and 'KNOW' about your own belief, and in addition the words 'only correct one', you have reduced the other's opinion/belief to something 'less than' yours, which is disrespectful. The fact remains that there is no respectful way to claim that what I believe to be true is the only UNIVERSAL truth. One has to add 'for me' - thus leaving room for other beliefs to be equal to mine. I really don't understand the problem for some people to get this. I can only conclude that people who have the need for their beliefs to be the ONLY UNVERSAL true beliefs, must be very insecure in their beliefs. What other reason would there be to feel that one's belief is being somehow reduced because other people's belief can be equally as true for them? Sad. Pitiful. Dov [report anonymous abuse]
River W.	SBC October 15, 2005 7:14 PM It is rare that two differing opinions will have the same level of validity. [ send green star]
River W.	SBC - Foul October 15, 2005 7:16 PM Your last paragraph is very disrespectful and attacking. Is that normally accepted here? [ send green star]
anonymous	October 15, 2005 7:48 PM No, it is not disrespectful at all. Stating that I drawn certain coclussions, which might well be incorrect about a certain way of viewing the world, cannot be disrespectful, as I am clearly stating it as MY conclusion. If you wish to argue thaI am wrong in my conclusion - drawn from empirical observations - be free to do so. Dov [report anonymous abuse]
anonymous	October 15, 2005 7:51 PM " It is rare that two differing opinions will have the same level of validity." There really is no conflict in saying that, as I do, Torah answers the questions "WHO?" and "WHY?", while Science answers the questions "WHEN?", "HOW?" and in some cases even "WHERE?". To me it's the only viable solution to the problem "Religion vs. Science". Dov [report anonymous abuse]
Myindians J.	October 15, 2005 7:55 PM Dear River, Please know Shadow Bear is trying to express that he does not get why people do not get the fact that so many people tries to make their belief the only truth..... We continue to ask everyone here to know that when they state their belief... it's their beliefs and just because others see things differently.... doesn't make anyone right or wrong..... They should share each others views and respect the other views.... Why is this so hard to except that to respect someone..... you try to understand or at least try to listen to them without putting down their beliefs..... It is disrespectful when anyone says "This is the Truth"... "This is the only".... I think you get the picture here..... Come on people..... Why does this have to be the debate... Myindians [ send green star]
anonymous	October 15, 2005 8:14 PM Myindians: [report anonymous abuse]
River W.	Myindians October 15, 2005 8:22 PM It is very simple to comprehend SBC. [ send green star]
River W.	Only Solution? October 15, 2005 8:27 PM You say "To me it's the only viable solution to the problem "Religion vs. Science"." If this is valid for you, what then is wrong with anyone else claiming their opinion is the only viable one. And are you saying that the Torah contains some inviolate, unarguable, absolute truth that everyone must by default accept? Must agnostics somehow accept this Torah as absolute truth? [ send green star]
anonymous	October 15, 2005 8:42 PM "You say "To me it's the only viable solution to the problem "Religion vs. Science"." If this is valid for you, what then is wrong with anyone else claiming their opinion is the only viable one. And are you saying that the Torah contains some inviolate, unarguable, absolute truth that everyone must by default accept? Must agnostics somehow accept this Torah as absolute truth?" River, please note that I said - "To me..." thus clearly making it my belief, NOT something that is UNVERSALLY TRUE. I don't mind people stating that their opinions/beliefs are true for them. There is a clear difference. The problem with what has been stated quite often in this Group, by some, is that they claim what they believe to be the only truth - and all else is false. I never claimed something like that. Torah is true for me. It might not be true for you - but that doesn't mean what you believe is not as valid as what I believe, even to me Dov [report anonymous abuse]
anonymous	October 15, 2005 8:43 PM " It is very simple to comprehend SBC." Are you trying to insult me here or are you saying that I express myself in clear terms? Dov [report anonymous abuse]
Nancy D.	Dov October 16, 2005 9:15 AM Yes, I agree that it's philosophy and religion that ask and answer the questions "who?" and "why" and "what is Life" and so on. Science and religion can become meaningful partners in this if each fulfills its own purpose and potential and leaves the other free to do the same. When religion tries to tell science that this and that is the "truth", and vice versa, that's when we have these conflicts. Again, "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Namaste, ND You wrote: There really is no conflict in saying that, as I do, Torah answers the questions "WHO?" and "WHY?", while Science answers the questions "WHEN?", "HOW?" and in some cases even "WHERE?". [ send green star]
River W.	SBC October 16, 2005 10:58 AM That your arguments were clear and comprehensible, whether I agree or not. I took unbrage at the condescending manner in which it was assumed that I did not understand. It is important to not confuse lack of concurrance with lack of comprehension. That is a common mistake. [ send green star]
anonymous	River, October 16, 2005 11:09 AM I suspect that you are reading things into what I say that is not there, I wasn't refering to in any manner form. I was refering to those in this Group who consistently have refered to their own beliefs as the only UNIVERSALLY valid truth. You raised a question about the respect/disrespect of such an utterance, but you did not claim such a thing. Dov [report anonymous abuse]
anonymous	Correction: October 16, 2005 11:11 AM " I wasn't refering to in any manner form." Should read: "I wasn't refering to you in any manner form." Dov [report anonymous abuse]
River W.	Michael H. October 16, 2005 11:26 AM I know why Nancy is difficult to understand, thanks. FYI, none of my posts are religious at all. The most relevant and poignant were deleted anyway. No need to explain with all of the religious terminology and jargon. Thanks anyway for your concern and effort. BTW, your writing style and phrase selection is quite similar to another in this group. Perhaps you studied together at one time? [ send green star]
Joben J.	October 16, 2005 2:30 PM Respect is about sharing views in a forum that fosters discussion. A place where thinly veiled insults wrapped in sarcasm have no home. A place where each person feels the freedom to say outloud - I believe this and here is why. A place where we are as accepted for our differences as much as for our similarities. Where we are ready to listen for words that open new windows for us onto the world. Respect for those with all the initials after their names and those who have earned their degrees on the front lines of life, living that which can never be taught in a book. A place to wait quietly for a whisper and to strive to understand the unknowable. To fully realize that 'different' doesn't mean 'wrong' For each person -in their own way, in their own voice - has a lesson to teach us all. [ send green star]
Michael H.	October 16, 2005 10:48 PM "No need to explain with all of the religious terminology and jargon. Thanks anyway for your concern and effort." Ugh - religious jargon?? How galling! Metaphysics is the philosophical study of what is, and is an important theoretical presupposition for all empirical scientific inquiry. If anything, empirical science as it is practiced today is a specialized branch of metaphysics, whether research scientists want to recognize it or not For instance, modern science relies heavily on quantization, which is itself a philosophy of science that says that the material world can be measured and will follow certain mathematical principles - something not at all obvious to the Greeks and only became accepted scientific practice in the 19th century. Likewise, numbers are themselves metaphysical objects that are presupposed by science, and therefore not empirically verifiable by means of the scientific method. To whimsically dismiss metaphysics is to dismiss scientific inquiry altogether. "BTW, your writing style and phrase selection is quite similar to another in this group. Perhaps you studied together at one time?" I haven't studied with anyone else in this group. Was there a specific person you had in mind? [ send green star]

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