Subhadra opened the door for more enlightenment. It should be like that.
I personally consider religions and spirituality polls apart. Religion is just a means to reach the end i.e. spirituality. Religion is like a rocket with its own propelling power to take a satellite to the orbit and leave it there.
While young, a man or a woman, require courage and comfort in order to get freedom from the net of prejudice, malice, loss of self-confidence and mental agony. This one can have only from a Guru who can present to the young victim a serious of reflections drawn out of his Sadana. India’s rich heritage is this Guru-Sishya Parampara (Master-Student Relationship). Such reflections are eternal and with progress of time gain value addition.
IT (Information Technology) Revolution and modern communication systems have brought the world closer as a Global Village. This is inevitable. Still the world is weary of hate. Mahatma Gandhi said decades back “The world is weary of hate. We see the fatigue overcoming the western nations. We see that this song of hate has not benefited humanity. Let it be the privilege of India to turn a new leaf and set a lesson to the world.”
It is unfortunate that Mahatma Gandhi’s India itself is weary of hate of one kind or the other. In this IT-Age, what is required is another IT and that is one’s own internal transformation. This internal transformation is possible and feasible through learning higher values of life,
What are these higher values of life? They are (1) Fearlessness, (2) Wisdom, (3) Honour, (4) Compassion, (5) Love, (6) Truth, (7) Non-violence, (8) Beauty, (9) Worship, and (10) Life, The Ultimate Test.
These higher values can be better understood through the following words of Late G. Ramachandran as told to Sister Mythili during 1977-79.
G. Ramachandran had the unique privilege of being the disciple of both Mahatma Gandhi and Rabindranath Tagore. He received his baptism in the purifying fire of the Gandhian Revolutions in India and at the same time in the currents of our Cultural Renaissance in which the poetry and philosophy of Rabindranath Tagore flowed like a golden stream.
G. Ramachandran together with his beloved wife Soundaram Ramachandran founded Gandhigram. He was the Founder Director of Gandhigram Rural Institute, which is late years got elevated as a Deemed University and he was the first Vice-Chancellor.
brave words, Ma! that's a great distinction between religion and spirituality -- I'd add a couple more:
religion is created by human beings in order to codify certain spiritual principles and impose them on other folks. it's an act of ignorance, from one angle, because if we really knew the actual divine energies and presences and laws that the divine characters like Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, etc., know, then we would function automatically in line with the divine laws and wouldn't need the human interpretation of them to guide, or misguide, us.
I like the observation that 'spirituality is for people who've already been in hell' since it implies a lot about the mechanism of being completely burned, cooked, steamed, in our karmas until we're forced, by suffering or direct experience of the divine, or heartbreak or whatever it is that finally brings us to our knees in surrender to god, to give it up and make a pure heart connection with the divine.
you could, I guess, say that religion is a way to structure and keep developing one's fear -- whereas spirituality is the way OUT of the fear.
Alx
and some spiritual people seem to find it hard to resist the urge to become 'religious' -- ie, "I now love and forgive everyone I meet, so I demand that YOU should do this, too, and in exactly the same ways that I found worked for me!!!!!!!!" *grinning*
uh, oh.
Alx
Dear Subhadra~
You said it all!!
Afterall~~ we are all ONE in God! No matter our path no matter our belief system, God loves each and everyone of us unconditionally!!
It is all about LOVE! God's love for us heals us, and our love for God heals everyone who meets us!! Love is the most powerful healing force in our universe!
Peace~love and light always and forever~
Wendy 
This post was modified from its original form on 06 Jun, 21:04
Thanks Subhadra and Alx for your invaluable messages.
It is my understanding and all the more my own personal experience that "fearlessness" the first and foremost requirement for spirituality.
When one is in mother's womb there is no fear at all. Out of the mother's womb and cut apart from the amblical cord the child start crying fearing unsafety.
A child in mother's womb is united with the spirit of the mother and the universal spirit of God.
The ancient Indian science yoga is a method by which one can develop one's inherent powers in a balanced manner. It offers the means to reach complete self-relization. The literal meaning of the Sanskrit word Yoga is 'yoke'. Accordingly, yoga is often defined as a means for uniting the individual spirit with the universal spirit of God.
Each individual's understanding and experience may vary but the connectivity with the spirit remains the same.
I am reminded here the following words of Mahatma Gandhi which was thought provoking for me as an young man. It may be equally true with others of all ages.
“If we exist, if our parents and their parents have existed, then it is proper to believe in the Parent of the whole creation. If He is not we are nowhere. He is one and yet many; He is smaller than an atom, and bigger than the Himalayas. He is contained even in a drop of the ocean, and yet not even the seven seas can compass Him. Reason is powerless to know Him. He is beyond the reach or grasp of reason. But I need not labor the point. Faith is essential in this matter. My logic can make and unmake innumerable hypotheses. An atheist might floor me in a debate. But my faith runs so very much faster than my reason that I can challenge the whole world and say, ‘God is, was and ever shall be’.”
First of all, I wish I could take credit for those words, but I can not. But they did bring up an important contrast.
Religion does some how seem to breed fear. Fear of God, fear of repercussions of not following the "rules". And most of all fear of the unknown. Religion is for those who fear God.
But spirituality is for those who KNOW God. Therein lies he greatest difference. Knowing the Supreme Personality and entering into a loving relationship with Him, like Micheal so eloquently described. And Alx, I couldn't have described hell any better than you did. We are all stuck in this miserable material world until we do come to the point when we realize that we need to connect with God to get out of this "hell". Yes, Alx, spirituality, a loving relationship with God, is a way, the only way, out of this fear.
This post was modified from its original form on 06 Jun, 21:28
Subhadra has blissfully landed all those participating in this topic discussions to the right platform.
Those who attained spirituality will not stick to the past in the material world and naturally treat the past in the material world as foregone, foregiven and foregotten.
In the ancient India's so called "Varnashrama", a Brahmin is someone who realized Brahma i.e. spirituality. Simply by taking a birth in a Brahmin family one does't as such realize Brahma i.e. spirituality. One is initiated into the path of realization of Brahma. On such realization one becomes a Brahmin.
One can learn a lot from Lord Krishna's life, if one really wishes. What all troubles He passed through, but He remained utouched by those troubles. He remained always happy - singing, dancing and playing. He remained happy and made all those around him very happy.
In the above respect Bhagavad Gita teachings are invaluable. The teachings of Bhagavad Gita and its provided invaluable knowledge not meant for a particular religion or sect. It is meant for the humanity as a whole.
Lord Krishna's life and teachings provide superconductivity and inseperable connectivity of the individual spirit with the universal spirit of God.
Let the above message of mine help open the flood-gate of the reservoir of knowledge of Subhadra, Alx, Salvo and other members of the Care2Guru group.
HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA, KRISHNA KRISHNA HARE HARE
HARE RAMA HARE RAMA, RAMA RAMA HARE HARE
TEXT 66
sarva-dharman parityajya
mam ekam saranam vraja
aham tvam sarva-papebhyo
moksayisyami ma sucah
SYNONYMS
sarva-dharman--all varieties of religion; parityajya--abandoning; mam--unto Me; ekam--only; saranam--surrender; vraja--go; aham--I; tvam--you; sarva--all; papebhyah--from sinful reactions; moksayisyami--deliver; ma--not; sucah--worry.
TRANSLATION
Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear.
PURPORT
The
Lord has described various kinds of knowledge, processes of religion,
knowledge of the Supreme Brahman, knowledge of the Supersoul, knowledge
of the different types of orders and statuses of social life, knowledge
of the renounced order of life, knowledge of nonattachment, sense and
mind control, meditation, etc. He has described in so many ways
different types of religion. Now, in summarizing Bhagavad-gita,
the Lord says that Arjuna should give up all the processes that have
been explained to him; he should simply surrender to Krsna. That
surrender will save him from all kinds of sinful reactions, for the
Lord personally promises to protect him.
In the Eighth
Chapter it was said that only one who has become free from all sinful
reactions can take to the worship of Lord Krsna. Thus one may think
that unless he is free from all sinful reactions he cannot take to the
surrendering process. To such doubts it is here said that even if one
is not free from all sinful reactions, simply by the process of
surrendering to Sri Krsna he is automatically freed. There is no need
of strenuous effort to free oneself from sinful reactions. One should
unhesitatingly accept Krsna as the supreme savior of all living
entities. With faith and love, one should surrender unto Him.
According
to the devotional process, one should simply accept such religious
principles that will lead ultimately to the devotional service of the
Lord. One may perform a particular occupational duty according to his
position in the social order, but if by executing his duty one does not
come to the point of Krsna consciousness, all his activities are in
vain. Anything that does not lead to the perfectional stage of Krsna
consciousness should be avoided. One should be confident that in all
circumstances Krsna will protect him from all difficulties. There is no
need of thinking how one should keep the body and soul together. Krsna
will see to that. One should always think himself helpless and should
consider Krsna the only basis for his progress in life. As soon as one
seriously engages himself in devotional service to the Lord in full
Krsna consciousness, at once he becomes freed from all contamination of
material nature. There are different processes of religion and
purificatory processes by cultivation of knowledge, meditation in the
mystic yoga system, etc., but one who surrenders unto Krsna
does not have to execute so many methods. That simple surrender unto
Krsna will save him from unnecessarily wasting time. One can thus make
all progress at once and be freed from all sinful reaction.
One
should be attracted by the beautiful vision of Krsna. His name is Krsna
because He is all-attractive. One who becomes attracted by the
beautiful, all-powerful, omnipotent vision of Krsna is fortunate. There
are different kinds of transcendentalists--some of them are attached to
the impersonal Brahman vision, some of them are attracted by the
Supersoul feature, etc., but one who is attracted to the personal
feature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and, above all, one who
is attracted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead as Krsna Himself, is
the most perfect transcendentalist. In other words, devotional service
to Krsna, in full consciousness, is the most confidential part of
knowledge, and this is the essence of the whole Bhagavad-gita. Karma-yogis,
empiric philosophers, mystics, and devotees are all called
transcendentalists, but one who is a pure devotee is the best of all.
The particular words used here, ma sucah, "Don't fear, don't
hesitate, don't worry," are very significant. One may be perplexed as
to how one can give up all kinds of religious forms and simply
surrender unto Krsna, but such worry is useless.
KELIIHANANUIbut is it spiritual?
*grinning*
sorry, couldn't resist.
Alx
Spirituality:
Those who meditate on Him, the radius between that spiritual aspirant and the Cosmic Nucleus goes on decreasing and decreasing. He will become one with Him. Even if he is a bad man, a degenerated, depraved person, if he does meditation, leads a pure life, his radius with the Parama Purusa will go on decreasing, and a day will come when his radius will be zero and he will be one with the Parama Purusa. That is the goal of human life. You should always remember that you are the children of your Father, and it is your birthright to be one with Him. It is your birthright to sit upon His lap. Nobody can debar you from this birthright. That is why, knowingly or unknowingly, consciously or unconsciously, you should all move towards Him and be one with Him. This is the path of humanity, and this is the main factor that differentiates an animal from a man.
This post was modified from its original form on 08 Jun, 1:32
It really helps me to know that Krishna has unlimited personal qualities and characteristics. As they are presented in the Vedas I have a chance to develop love for God. Krishna's activities are perfectly attractive. So that's nice.
The spirit within us is innate.
Corrupted or cleansed only by our choice.
Analogies...
I think. Therefore I am.
Life is imaginary. Reality is perceived.
Historical facts?
The world is flat.
Human flight is impossible.
Technological reality...
What you`re really seeing on your screen is my spirit talking to you via binary code with the help of machinery born of human imagination.
The sum of all parts...
Pure Light.
This post was modified from its original form on 08 Jun, 5:23
have been made aware of the omniscient.
Some of us have no awareness of it as yet.
Very few of us have the ability to usher light.
If it is true that all things exist only dependant on thier counterparts, and them on thiers, therefore making all one and reliant on all others, can it not be said about religion and spirituality also?
It is only through a persons own interpretation of words that they hold any meaning.
Granted they are useful in assisting us to communicate and conceptualise, but if one thinks 'God' means a man in a place called 'heaven' and another thinks 'God' means the life force we connect with when we open our awareness to the things our human existance cannot always explain, doesnt that show us that it is best to ask each indivual what they mean first rather than automatically assuming they think the same as us?
I have found that spirituality can exist in religion and the two can come together in a beautiful union.
I am only 25yo but have been going to church with all the old folk and have found they have an amazing view of things- truly beautiful and inspiring!
I experience a spiritual 'buzz' often as i listen to the people speak. I have a safe haven in thier midst, as do my children, and i know in my heart and all my being that even though a fair portion of how they interpret the text in the bible is a miscommunication caused through continual updating of the books words to keep with modern language, i still feel true 'God' in thier words and see it in there eyes and actions.
In time i believe the two will come together as one for all Mother Earths children.
But as a generalised interpretation of the two words, go spirituality 
Peace love and harmony to you all,
Elizabeth
You will most likely experience that it is your thoughts that create all sorts of mental illnesses. Towards the end (8-9 days), you should be able to "see" non-stop, senseless and subconscious thoughts emerging from your mind - those you would have been totally unaware of in your daily, chaotic state of mind.
Once you can learn to "watch" and "observe" your thoughts (perhaps after many 10-day silent sessions), you will learn not get entangled in them and a new observatory state of mind will develop. You will also be able to observe other people's thoughts and notice how people flow endlessly and mindlessly with the thoughts, moving from one mood to the other and one opinion to another. They are awake but still sleeping, caught in illusory realities created by their own thoughts.
This is the actual freedom from thought-based illusions. People often mistake the concept of thoughtless-ness (Wu-Nein) for suppressing the thoughts. Actually it is active, aware state of mind where one is not affected by the thoughts. Once achieved, useless and senseless thoughts automatically drop. Then, what you say from your mouth will be very selective. Your thinking will be conscious.
Regular periods of silence are necessary. Years and years of thought-producing has created strong dependence on words and word-based meaning of things rather than word-less awareness. Most of it has become unconscious habit. Even when we are not speaking, the mind goes on non-stop. We eat but do not eat. We walk but do not walk. We see but do not see. The awareness is absent in thinking. Mind/Thoughts fluctuates from past to future. It cannot go in the present because the "present", "now" moment cannot be defined by words. It is the "live" moment, where past, present and future do not exist.
Observe, if you can. Then, let the above words drop as well.
This post was modified from its original form on 08 Jul, 4:36
yours are such words of wisdom, thank you.
What would you recommend as a substitue for this silence for days at a time for a single full time at home mum like myself?
Hello Liz!
The other way you can achieve silencing of the mind is through meditation.
Here is a link to our Mantra thread:
http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?gpp=5532&pst=752214&archival=&posts=43
Daily set aside 10min to an hour (As much time as you can) and either speak the Mantras or listen to them on CD and go through the meditation process of dep breathing and relaxing while focussing only on the Mantras.
This will strengthen your mind and enlighten your spirit, thus bringing more joy into your life.
"Go in absolute silence for a period of 10 days - pre-arrange food, essentials etc so that you do not have to ask for anything"
Sarvo ~ how delightful to see you express this...I do this often and make it an essential part of my spiritual practice.
It becomes so beautiful ~ blissful and uplifting that I often do not want to return to the world of noise.
SPIRITUALITY vs. RELIGION
SPIRITUALITY SAYS THAT GOD IS WITHIN US AND THAT WE DON'T NEED ANYONE ELSE TO MAKE THAT DIVINE CONNECTION FOR US.
RELIGION SAYS THAT WE ARE SEPARATED FROM GOD AND THAT WE NEED "THEM" TO MAKE THAT DIVINE CONNECTION.
SPIRITUALITY SAYS THAT WE ARE FREE TO MAKE CHOICES ON OUR OWN AND THAT WE MUST TAKE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR OUR ACTIONS.
RELIGION SAYS WE MUST MAKE THEIR CHOICES AND ACT THEIR WAY.
THE THEME OF SPIRITUALITY IS UNCONDITIONAL LOVE.
THE THEME OF RELIGION IS FEAR AND GUILT.
SPIRITUALITY DOES NOT REQUIRE US TO MAKE DONATIONS.
RELIGION HAS BECOME BIG BUSINESS.
SPIRITUALITY SAYS THERE IS NO HELL, NO JUDGEMENT, NO ANGRY GOD... THAT WE ARE LOVED UNCONDITIONALLY.
RELIGION SAYS THERE IS A HELL, GOD GETS ANGRY AND JUDGES US... THEREFORE, WE ARE NOT LOVED UNCONDITIONALLY.
SPIRITUALITY SAYS WE ARE FREE TO CHOOSE OUR OWN PATH TO GOD.
RELIGION COMMANDS US TO DO IT THEIR WAY.
SPIRITUALITY SAYS WE GO TO GOD TO LIGHTEN OUR BURDEN.
RELIGION HAS TAUGHT US TO FEAR THEIR GOD
SPIRITUALITY SAYS WE SHOULD NOT BE ASHAMED OF OUR SEXUALITY... THAT IT SHOULD BE A SACRED CELEBRATION OF LOVE
RELIGION HAS TAUGHT US TO FEEL ASHAMED, GUILTY AND DIRTY ABOUT OUR SEXUALITY
SPIRITUALITY TEACHES US TO HONOUR AND RESPECT MOTHER EARTH
RELIGION HAS TOLD US TO "BE THOU FRUITFUL, MULTIPLY AND SUBDUE THE EARTH" I REPEAT... "SUBDUE THE EARTH"
SPIRITUALITY REMINDS US THAT WE ARE ONE WITH GOD AND ONE WITH EACH OTHER
RELIGION TEACHES DISUNITY AND SEPARATION WHICH IS THE OPPOSITE OF GOD
SPIRITUALITY SAYS GOD IS WITHIN
RELIGION SAYS HE IS IN HEAVEN AND THAT "THEY" ARE THE ONLY INTERMEDIARIES FOR US
SPIRITUALITY SAYS WE ARE BORN IN INNOCENCE AND PURITY
RELIGION SAYS WE ARE BORN WITH SIN
SPIRITUALITY TEACHES THAT WE ARE ON A LONG SPIRITUAL ADVENTURE AND JOURNEY WHICH WILL ULTIMATELY END BY REUNITING WITH OUR SOURCE
RELIGION SAYS WE'VE GOT ONE LIFE TO GET IT ALL RIGHT AND THERE IS NOTHING BUT HEAVEN OR HELL AFTER THAT
SPIRITUALITY SAYS WE ARE FREE TO EXPRESS
RELIGION GAVE US THE DREADED INQUISITION
SPIRITUALITY TEACHES UNCONDITIONAL LOVE FOR ALL
RELIGION GAVE US THE CRUSADES IN WHICH MANY WERE KILLED AND SLAUGHTERED IN THE NAME OF GOD
SPIRITUALITY TEACHES THAT WE SHOULD LOVE ONE ANOTHER UNCONDITIONALLY AND ALWAYS HONOUR THE RIGHTS AND CHOICES OF OTHERS
RELIGION TREATED NATIVE AMERICANS, THE MAYANS AND OTHER INDIGENOUS CULTURES AS SAVAGE PRIMITIVES WHO "MUST BE SAVED"
SPIRITUALITY TEACHES PEACE AND HARMONY
RELIGION HAS CAUSED MORE WARS AND MORE KILLING THAN ANY OTHER REASON
SPIRITUALITY SAYS RESPECT ALL LIVING THINGS
I NEVER ONCE HEARD ANY RELIGION SAY STOP SLAUGHTERING MILLIONS OF TREES EVERY YEAR FOR CHRIST'S BIRTHDAY
SPIRITUALITY TEACHES US TO HAVE FAITH IN OURSELVES
RELIGION TEACHES US TO HAVE FAITH IN THEM
SPIRITUALITY SAYS WE HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS... THAT WE CAN FIND THEM BY "GOING WITHIN"
RELIGION TEACHES US THAT IT HAS ALL THE ANSWERS AND ONLY ITS ANSWERS ARE THE RIGHT ONES
SPIRITUALITY TEACHES US TO SEARCH FOR THE UNIVERSAL TRUTHS AND OUR HEARTS WILL TELL US WHEN WE HAVE FOUND THEM
RELIGION TEACHES WE HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO ACCEPT THEIR VERSION OF THE TRUTH
WHICH ONE FEELS BETTER TO YOU? SPIRITUALITY OR RELIGION?
GO TO YOUR HEART FOR THE ANSWER IT WILL NEVER LIE TO YOU !
When a human being is born it is an intelligent statement of a System that controls everything in the Universe except the alienated human beings. The Intelligent System is the System of Life- the religions that are in service of God should say that it is the System of God. We have intelligence because we got life from that System. The only thing is that we do not use that intelligence for the support of that System due to our alienation by the religions that preach divinity in their systems. All these silly propositions will vanish when humanity regain their real consciousness. The people who regained their real consciousness called the System the Truth. "Mankind errs here By folly, darkening knowledge. But for whom That darkness of the soul is chased by light, Splendid and clear shines manifest the Truth As if a Sun of Wisdom sprang to shed Its beam of dawn. Him meditating still, Him seeking, with Him blended, stayed on Him, The souls illuminated take that road Which hath no turning back- their sins flung off By the strength of faith." ('Bhagavad Gita') The people who regained the real sensibility of the soul were the people called the System the Truth. When religions confiscate our consciousness for their systems we lose the sensibility of our soul. To regain spirituality we have to regain the lost sensibility. C.G.Jung says about this regaining of the real consiousness thus" "The transcendent function does not proceed without aim and purpose, but leads to the revelation of the essential man. It is in the first place a purely natural process, which may in some cases pursue its course without the knowledge or assistance of the individual, and sometimes forcibly accomplish itself in the face of opposition. The meaning and purpose of the process is the realization, in all its aspects, of the personality originally hidden away in the embryonic germ-plasm; the production and unfolding of the original, potential wholeness…. "If we can successfully develop that function which I have called transcendent, the disharmony ceases and then we can enjoy the favourable side of the unconscious. The unconscious then gives us all the encouragement and help that bountiful nature can shower upon man. It holds possibilities which are locked away from the conscious mind, for it has at its disposal all subliminal psychic contents, all those things which have been forgotten or overlooked, as well as the wisdom and experience of uncounted centuries which are laid down in its archetypal organs." (Two Essays on Analytical Psychology, The Collected Works of C.G. Jung, Vol. 7 pg. 114) If humanity has to become sane we must regain our real self.
Personally, I consider myself to be religious and spiritual and spiritual and religious. I AM NOT AFRAID OF GOING TO HELL IN ANY WAY. I don't fear the Lord because he might scold me or chastise me, but instead I am in awe of the greatness, and awesomeness, of the Lord as much as I can be. I can shout with joy and bless the Lord because I love him so desperately because as a human being, I am only poor and needy for divine guidance and wisdom. Instead of my previous post, I should have written it thus:
Religio-legalistic people kill for God. Religio-spiritualistic people die for God.
There seems to be a great big misconception over the world, religion, itself, here. Although Sarvo invited me to this group, I feel it is not one of which I can remain a member. There are some beautiful, lovely souls here, but I think there is no place here for someone who adheres to an orthodox, Judeo Christian path, even if I do love to read my Gita.
Blessings to all of you.
I believe there is an important distinction to be made between religion and spirituality. Religion I take to be concerned with belief in the claims to salvation of one faith tradition or another--an aspect of which is acceptance of some form of meta-physical or philosophical reality, including perhaps an idea of heaven or hell. Connected with this are religious teachings or dogma, ritual, prayers and so on. Spirituality I take to be concerned with those qualities of the human spirit--such as love and compassion, patience, tolerance, forgiveness, contentment, a sense of responsibility, a sense of harmony, which bring happiness to both self and others.
-His Holiness the Dalai Lama
My guru, Srila Prabhupada, had an ongoing personal relationship with Krishna. He was face to face with the Supreme Being at all times. That's not just spiritual. That's fully transcendental.
This post was modified from its original form on 24 Apr, 14:45
Interesting, Subhadra! There is so much animosity (IMO) generated here and on other groups because of people's understanding of the words Religion and Spirituality. Religion has got a bad name basically because of the Judeo/Christian interpretation of the word. How often do we hear stuff like "I hate religion because it has been the cause of war and bloodshed throughout history"? NO IT HASN'T. Politics, greed and power-hungry maniacs create wars and bloodshed! They merely use and abuse religion to provide themselves with human ammunition. MAN'S misguided interpretation of what religion is about is the problem...using religion as a disguise for oppression, political intrigue and coercion is the problem!!! And very,very,very sadly, it is mainly the Christian and Muslim religions that have been abused and used in this way. How sad Jesus and Mohammad must be. Religion is not bad......the mis-use of it is. Anyhow...religion means to me putting a workable structure around spirituality. It isn't bad until someone makes it bad.
Now if we can only convince a few more people to be so sensible. Lynn, the world could use a few more like you. Srila Prabhupada used to say it's very uncommon; common sense, that is.
Well...I am probably very common...being from Essex (and a Jewish East End mother....how common can you get!!!!)
Hey, that's not what I said. I said you were uncommon, not common. Jeeze.... 
Is religion just spirituality, dogmatised for the unenlightened? Dogmas can be trained as guardians or weapons. Some dogmas are more well-behaved than others. Dogmas are truths fed with reason... and ofttimes that diet is mismanaged... and you can get chased into the pit of 'because'.
apologies if this is too abstract, or the analogy too obscure. I have tracked the 'progress' of religions, as far as history allows - and there is no religion that hasn't been used to perpetuate control, often using brutality(war) and cruelty(oppression), as the reasonable extension of coersion. The only common denominator that I can find is Man. And yes, I do mean male... even where religion isn't a factor, dogmas in the form of self-serving reason, are all insecure males require to run amuck in society, causing much strife and bloodshed.
Does this really define the human condition? There is a lack of balance and compassion in the world. Should we bother to look for a remedy in this world? Is escape our souls' only option? Or can we bring balance and compassion into the world and transform it and ourselves?
jeesh, lots of questions came up there...
OM Shanti
Holly opines, "The only common denominator that I can
find is Man. And yes, I do mean male... even where religion isn't a
factor, dogmas in the form of self-serving reason, are all insecure
males require to run amuck in society, causing much strife and
bloodshed."
As long as the men are no better than messy little boys this will be the case. If a man can't stay locked and loaded, then this will be the result. If he is that out of control, then we can expect so much suffering.
Sarvo...good morning! Don't worry, I was only joking...I am in fact very posh (that is a joke too!!!)
God hates Religion, God is Spirit. To serve God one must serve him in Spirit and truth. Religion is like war between the Religious who's right and wrong. Seeking God in truth and Spirit is the way to Gods heart. If I am Praying meditating in Spirit I will accomplish much.
If I am trying to see who's right or wrong in Religion I am wasting my time when I can be seeking God in truth and Spirit. Being in the Spirit with God is like leaving this world behind. On a High rising up to the Heavens where many blessings awaits me. Praise God his Holy name amen.
Go in absolute silence for a period of
10 days - pre-arrange food, essentials etc so that you do not have to
ask for anything.
You will most likely experience that it is
your thoughts that create all sorts of mental illnesses. Towards the
end (8-9 days), you should be able to "see" non-stop, senseless and
subconscious thoughts emerging from your mind - those you would have
been totally unaware of in your daily, chaotic state of mind.
Once
you can learn to "watch" and "observe" your thoughts (perhaps after
many 10-day silent sessions), you will learn not get entangled in them
and a new observatory state of mind will develop. You will also be able
to observe other people's thoughts and notice how people flow endlessly
and mindlessly with the thoughts, moving from one mood to the other and
one opinion to another. They are awake but still sleeping, caught in
illusory realities created by their own thoughts.
This is the
actual freedom from thought-based illusions. People often mistake the
concept of thoughtless-ness (Wu-Nein) for suppressing the thoughts.
Actually it is active, aware state of mind where one is not affected by
the thoughts. Once achieved, useless and senseless thoughts
automatically drop. Then, what you say from your mouth will be very
selective. Your thinking will be conscious.
Regular periods of
silence are necessary. Years and years of thought-producing has created
strong dependence on words and word-based meaning of things rather than
word-less awareness. Most of it has become unconscious habit. Even when
we are not speaking, the mind goes on non-stop. We eat but do not eat.
We walk but do not walk. We see but do not see. The awareness is absent
in thinking. Mind/Thoughts fluctuates from past to future. It cannot go
in the present because the "present", "now" moment cannot be defined by
words. It is the "live" moment, where past, present and future do not
exist.
Observe, if you can. Then, let the above words drop as well."
Great info, Sarvo. Thanks!
Peace All
Mantra jappa or the chanting of the holy name is a very powerful way to voluntarily lose my mind and move more and more into my heart, find God there, allow Him to direct my steps and in that way increase my chance to be really happy in this life even while still here in this world of birth and death.
Oh Sarvo, how I wish I could have such a retreat, although 10 days, I might be looney by then. Anyways, it does seem like a wonderful idea and I so much wish I could arrange such a retreat. Hmm, now my mind is racing trying to figure out how to accomplish this. I heard some one once refer to our minds as our wild horse mind. This is so true. I can't seem to shut off my thoughts, even while chanting. Not yet at least. Doesn't keep me from trying though.
Sarvo,
It would be much safer and less painful to enlighten/educate males as to the responsible use of their power, if there were just not so many of them!!!!
This post was modified from its original form on 25 Apr, 14:08
The plan of the elite plutocrats who run the planet is to eliminate five of the six billion people now here. They feel they only need one billion slaves. Srila Prabhupada pointed out, however, that if everyone were Krishna conscious, we could easily and blissfully support sixty billion people here.
I read this in another group. What do you think about it?
SACRED -What we FEEL
RELIGION - What we DO
SPIRITUALITY - Who we ARE as human beings
Religion is for self interest.
Spirituality takes one beyond self interest.
Religion devoid of Spirituality is Mere Cult.
To attain Spiritual Relisation on has to surreder self interest first. This is aaht I have understood.
Presently all religions vehemently mainatin that spiritual realisation is possible only through religious tenets.
But what I have experienced is
' Rituals have made the Reason for Religion Redundent".
This applicable to all religions of the world today.
...and so the really brilliant power brokers at the highest level have taken away all religion and as a result all the people are going to hell and the elite members of the plutocracy easily enslave them. By promoting their agenda you also become more easily victimized but you are the last to know it.
It is always good to have some sort of 'religion,' lol...you may think of it as an 'institution,' but i think of it as 'a Way of Life.'
People in Kali yuga become faithless. As all religions become discounted, science becomes the new religion and moral judgements and decision making is handed over to the new self appointed shamans and priests who promote the agenda of the plutocracy. They are the psychologists and psychiatrists. Their connection to corporate culture insures that people will be exploited, manipulated, controlled and enslaved to a greater degree than ever before. Interestingly enough, statistics show that there is more suicide and divorce among this professional group than practically any other. Those who are given charge of the moral conditions within society, themselves show more symptoms of disease than anyone else.
Any one know any thing about this sight?
Trying to learn all I can about different beliefs.
Not trying to insult no one just trying to learn.
http://purekatha.ning.com/profile/harikatha
It's never a mistake to chant Hare Krisha. Unfortunately the people supporting this site became a little impatient with ISKCON and left it. I see all kinds of big problems in ISKCON. I've decided to stay and try to heal and help ISKCON or die trying. At one point I was very attracted to the idea of standing of to the side and pointing a judgmental condemning finger back at ISKCON. Now with each day that passes I'm more and more glad I didn't give in to that urge.
As long as they are all true devotees....does it matter about the title? Just sad they had to fall out really.
One day I hope to be a true devotee. I figure if I pretend long enough it will eventually increase my chances. There have been a fair number of offshoots and splinter groups over the years. I just wonder how they'll feel if they ever happen to notice some corruption or problem developing within their pristinely pure new approach to God consciousness.
Form yet another splinter group of course...that's what happens. It's often easier to do that than to remedy the original problem. Thus efforts become diluted and people become divided...yep, I can see where you are coming from.
one of the tough aspects of being in a spiritual organization of any kind is that in Kali Yuga, no matter what kind of beautiful vision, divine inspiration, great ideals, etc., any organization is founded on, things decay and devolve. the illusions will always play -- the egoism, selfishness, doubts, judgmentalism, power issues, unworthiness, fear, desire for control, jealousy -- that is the nature of Nature in Kali Yuga.
any spiritual movement that is truly representing the divine -- and there are many of them -- eventually will be challenged by these kinds of illusions. because that organization exists as an antidote TO those illusions, it's also attracting the very illusions it's trying to stand against.
usually, organizations have a tendency to devolve, into in-fighting and splintering, etc., because the challenge of the illusions is deep, and because it's tough to see them when they're hitting us and expressing through us.
the moment I take ANYTHING personally, I'm in the grip of the illusion.
learning how to handle the illusions, learning how to stay super-humble and honest with ourselves, and recognize 'uh, oh, I'm starting to get jealous about someone else's achievements' or 'yikes, I spoke with egoism again....' or 'I'm judging someone else for such-and-such an illusion reason.' and then giving, immediately, those illusion-reactions and behaviors to god.
surrendering those illusions the moment I recognize them operating in me brings an immeasurable relief.
we have to see that even though we're IN the Kali Yuga, our consciousness can be operating in a different Yuga, where the purity is more functional.
Alx
Alx . . . articulate and incisive. Beautiful!
thanks, Dolce -- just calling it like I see it. it's really hard to remember, in the heat of the moment, how insidious and gripping (and real!) the Mahamaya, the Illusion, can be. we think all these things and lives and movements and conflicts and so on are real and lasting, but they're not. a drop in the ocean of Time on this planet. temporary dramas. not real.
I think your countryman summed it up as '...full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.'
Alx
I take everything very personally because God is the Supreme Personality. In this way I increase my chance to experience love of God. When I take it really seriously I even become drunk on love of God.
*grinning* but isn't it the case that once you're drunk, you forget your own persona?
I mean, we come in this world as babies, and then learn soon after that we are a body. then we grow up into our youth and believe the illusion that we are 'somebody'. only the recognition that spirituality leads people to, a blinding moment of realizing "hey! I'm nobody!" -- that leads to each of us becoming, finally, everybody.
Alx
I belong to Krishna. I'm Krishna's eternal servant. Krishna is so kind and forgiving and tolerant that, insofar as my inebriation is inspired by Him, things seem to always work out exceptionally well. I'm especially grateful for this and consider it a real blessing.
