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8 years ago

Or is that two continuous posts in one thread? LOL

8 years ago
This reverse order doesn't work out so good for two thread posts, huh?
8 years ago

But oh the meat. The overwhelming quantity, the bloody, deadly stench of it. Fact is, it is quite impossible to watch the entire "Loose Change" documentary and not come away just a little shaken, a little awed by the sheer number of perversely interrelated facts and aberrant coincidences-that-aren't-coincidences, shaking your head at how it all seems to irrefutably prove there is far, far more to the Sept. 11 tragedy than just crazy Osama and his band of zealots, as you begin to sink into a sighing morass of rage and frustration and suspicion and mistrust. You almost can't help it.

Of course, there is another option. There is another way out. You may, as is the standard cultural default, simply ignore it all, scoff and roll your eyes and shrug it all off because it's just too bleak and distasteful to entertain the idea that the dark Sept. 11 thread winds all the way through the NSA and the FBI and the White House and the Project for the New American Century and Dick Cheney's mangled soul and God only knows where else.

But then again, no. You have to look. You have to try. Knowledge is power, and while the truth may be spurious and slippery and messy and deep, the pursuit of it is just about the only thing we have left. Give that up, and all that's left is spiritual numbness, emotional stasis and death. So what are you waiting for?

Source: Mark Morford - SF Gate
http://www.sfgate.com/columnists/morford/
Long Live The 9/11 Conspiracy!
8 years ago
Anyone still care about the heap of disturbing, unsolved questions surrounding Our Great Tragedy?

Here is your must-read for the month. Here is your oh-my-God-I'm-sending-this-piece-to-
every-smart-person-I-know hunk of outstanding, distressing, disquieting media bliss.

Here it is: an absolutely exceptional inside scoop on the white-hot world of Sept. 11 conspiracy theories, writ large and smart by Mark Jacobson over at New York magazine, and it's mandatory reading for anyone and everyone who's ever entertained the nagging thought that something -- or rather, far more than one something -- is deeply wrong with the official line on what actually happened on Sept. 11.

See, it is very likely that you already know that Sept. 11 will go down in the conspiracy history books as a far more sinister affair than, say, the murky swirl of the Kennedy assassination. You probably already know that much of what exactly happened on Sept. 11 remains deeply unsettling and largely unsolved -- or to put another way, if you don't know all of this and if you fully and blithely accept the official Sept. 11 story, well, you haven't been paying close enough attention.

But on this, the third anniversary of the launch of Bush's illegal invasion of Iraq by way of whoring the tragedy of Sept. 11 for his cronies' appalling gain, what you might not know, what gets so easily forgotten in the mists of time and via the endless repetition of the orthodox Sept. 11 tale, is the sheer volume, the staggering array of unanswered questions about just about every single aspect of Sept. 11 -- the planes, the WTC towers, the Pentagon, the fires, the passengers and the cell phone calls and the firefighters and, well, just about everything. It is, when you look closely, all merely a matter of how far down the rabbit hole you are willing to go.

Verily, Jacobson, in his New York mag piece, encounters crackpots and fringe nutballs and those who think Sept. 11 was connected to aliens and electromagnetic fields and the Illuminati. It can, unfortunately, get a little crazy. But there is also a very smart, grounded, intelligent and surprisingly large faction -- which includes eyewitnesses, Sept. 11 widows, former generals, pilots, professors, engineers, WTC maintenance workers and many, many more -- who point to a rather shocking pile of evidence that says there is simply no way 19 fanatics with box cutters sent by some bearded lunatic in a cave could have pulled off the most perfectly orchestrated air attack of the century. Not without serious help, anyway.

Whose help? This, of course, is the biggest question of all, one which many of the more well-researched theories go a surprisingly long way toward answering.

You have to sift and sort. There are disturbing questions about collapse speeds and controlled demolitions and why the towers fell when the all-steel infrastructure was designed to easily withstand the temperatures of any sort of fire, even burning jet fuel. There are questions of the mysterious, media-documented blasts deep in the WTC towers that took place after the planes hit. There are questions of why there was such a short-selling spree on shares of American Airlines and United Air Lines the day before the attack, huge doubts about the failures of NORAD and the FAA, the bizarre case of the missing plane in the Pentagon crash, and also the downing of Flight 93 where, according to the coroner, no blood or major plane wreckage was actually found. There is, ultimately, the stunning failure of the entire multi-trillion-dollar American air-defense system. Just for starters.

There is also the very big question of what happened to 7 WTC, the only building not hit by anything at all, but which collapsed anyway, in a perfect controlled-demolition sort of way, for no reason anyone can sufficiently explain. But which just so happened to contain vital offices for the IRS, the Department of Defense, the CIA, the Secret Service, the Securities and Exchange Commission and more.

But perhaps Jacobson's article is insufficient for you. Perhaps you have heard much of it before, or you're more of the visceral type and need to actually see the proofs in order to delve deeper, have them laid out like gruesome body parts in a mesmerizing autopsy. Fair enough.

For you, we have the surprisingly compelling indie documentary "9/11 Loose Change" (Google it), freely available on the Internet and produced by three very astute and very young and very strong-willed dudes who managed to cobble together a truly astounding array of proofs and interviews and evidence, a full 1 hour and 20 minutes' worth of mesmerizing footage you will not be able to easily forget.

Or maybe you should peruse one of the countless Sept. 11 conspiracy sites, many of which link to relevant video and one of which -- scholarsfor911truth.org -- claims to be "a non-partisan association of faculty, students, and scholars, in fields as diverse as history, science, military affairs, psychology, and philosophy, dedicated to exposing falsehoods and to revealing truths behind 9/11." Start there.

Now, it's very true that some of the more specious conspiracy claims have been largely discredited and proved false. Some of the more radical "evidence" gathered by theorists is quite suspect and easily placed in the category of no-way-in-hell. This is valid. This is as it should be. You have to chew through a lot of skin and gristle to get to the real meat.

8 years ago
((((Elizabeth)))
8 years ago

That is exactly what you said, Dov.  I just reposted it in my own words because that is exactly how I feel, and since some people weren't getting it the way you posted it, I thought I would try.

Besides, I thought coming from someone who is from the US, perhaps people could see that it was not about having an anti-US sentiment - it was about having an anti-current administration sentiment.  The environment engendered by all of the current propoganda encourages people to feel that we are special because we are American, when, in fact, that is simply not true.

We, as US residents, have no more or less value than people from any other country on the planet.  What happens to us is not more tragic or of greater importance than what happens to people of other countries.

Therefore, I feel badly for anyone from anywhere who is affected by this type of violence.  It is horrible.

8 years ago
"This is where it has become a human rights issue - our administration is using this incident to enact their own far right wing agenda - an agenda they obviously had in mind to begin with. They are using this to try to garner sympathy with the rest of the world, when really, the rest of the world has had problems of political violence on an ongoing basis. I, for one, am sick of hearing about 9/11 - not that I don't have sympathy for the victims and their families, because, of course, I do, but I have sympathy for victims of political violence everywhere - the Rwandans, those in Darfur, Serbs, Croatians, Israelis, Palestinians, the Kurds........" (my bold)

I thought this was exactly what I said too...

As for attacking a poster not her posts - I agree, I did in that last post to Marla, and I apologize for wording myself in such a manner that it became an attack on a poster, not on the post(s). I am not apologizing for my opinion, just for the manner in which I expressed part of it.

Dov

8 years ago
Changed the order of the thread for those with dial-up.
8 years ago

I have some comments to make here - and yes I am a co-host, and these comments are made by me as an individual.

Briefly - to comment on the Marla/Yid issue - my first reaction to 9/11 was one of sadness, and yes I know people who lost family and friends there.  I fully agree that the issue was one of Americans not believing that they could be targeted.  We had never really been affected by this type of violence before.  Probably everyone in the world has been. 

This administration has milked this to effect changes to the way things are handled here.  As Michelle said:

I don't think that 9/11 is a reason for America to be a police state, or to chuck out the Constitution, or have NSA spying on us.  And in since it is being used to justify those things, it's relevant to Human rights because we're expected to give up more and more of those, because of the "lessons" of 9/11. 

This is where it has become a human rights issue - our administration is using this incident to enact their own far right wing agenda - an agenda they obviously had in mind to begin with.  They are using this to try to garner sympathy with the rest of the world, when really, the rest of the world has had problems of political violence on an ongoing basis.  I, for one, am sick of hearing about 9/11 - not that I don't have sympathy for the victims and their families, because, of course, I do, but I have sympathy for victims of political violence everywhere - the Rwandans, those in Darfur, Serbs, Croatians, Israelis, Palestinians, the Kurds........

************************************************

The topic of this thread is - does this video show that we were lied to?

My answer is: OF COURSE.

Personally, I have felt that this administration is completely responsible for 9/11 - they wanted a presence in the area: Mid-East / Pakistan, etc., and they wanted oil.

I think they planned and staged 9/11 with the cooperation of some others so that they could blame Osama binLaden and cohorts as an excuse to get into Iraq.  bin Laden was our friend when we trained him to fight against Russia.  His family is still a friend to the Bushes.

This was all propoganda, still is.  This administration has been lying to us about countless things since the beginning.  Not just what is in this video.

Hey, Marla and Yid,
8 years ago
neither of you is going to change your mind of the other - and it doesn't matter at all. Marla, you can go on thinking that Yid is an America-hater - and Yid, you can go on thinking that Marla is a "typical", stereotypical American - none of this has anything to do with this issue. So, just stop it.

Marla, if you wish to say things to Yid you can't fit into the introductions post, send him an introduction "I need to talk, this is my e-mail address, please contact me." I promise he will contact you via e-mail and then you have all the space in the world to spill your guts out.

Ket

P.S. It might help if you DID read what he writes... if you are ignoring his answers to your questions, it makes questioning purely rhetorical.

P.P.S. You can NOT FEEL anything about another person - you can not FEEL that someone is being hateful, nasty, deliberately hurtful, and so on. You can FEEL being sad, hurt, offended, angry and so on. The second you start talking about "you do this and you do that and I feel you are being this and that", you are NOT talking about your feelings anymore.

P.P.P.S. Do you think the hosts should NOT speak their mind, stand for their opinions, what ever they are - we are people too, have opinions, take sides - just like everyone else, and we too have the right to express that. Besides, you have clearly misunderstood what El Yid means.



Yid,
what happened with "attack the post, not the poster"?



Can we get back to the issue?
- which is NOT 9/11 in general, or what USA/Americans are or are not, but "were we lied to?"
I am not pointing fingers
8 years ago
and saying that all Americans are selfish - I am saying that AMERICA, The United Staes of America as a National entity, is arrogant and self-centered. All teenagers are arrogant and self-centered - the US is a Young Nation compared to most Nations in Europe. I am pointing to a National attitude of "We are the best, the fittest and the most glorious in the world, we can do as we please and demand what we want, because it is our right and our due." An attitude expressed very well by the President of the US: "You are either with us or against us." I am well aware that not all individual Americans are arrogant or self-cenetered, but enough are, for it to have been noted, and established as a fact among the Peoples of other Nations of the World that AMERICA is an arrogant and self-centered Nation.

Dov
El Yid S
8 years ago

Pointing fingers to one American does not define us all.... Please refrain from the thinking process that we are all selfish, spoiled, and self-centered.  For instance:  You being a middle eastern person you must be a terrorist right?  No that is just saying so because you are being sterotyped.  So really you are no different than some American's.  The similarites are we are all human and have to live next to each other.  Live and let live.

Tolerance:  2 a : sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own

Poppy,
8 years ago
I hear you.  And I think you are right. 
I saw the first edition of the film, before they found even more evidence to back up their conjectures. 

But it is more appropriately a topic for 9/11 Conspiracy, even though putting the word "conspiracy" in front of anything these days is code for "we don't have to take this seriously." 

I don't think that 9/11 is a reason for America to be a police state, or to chuck out the Constitution, or have NSA spying on us.  And in since it is being used to justify those things, it's relevant to Human rights because we're expected to give up more and more of those, because of the "lessons" of 9/11. 
Shadow
8 years ago

I responded to what I felt I should have, without making this any bigger than it was ever meant to be. Inso, I didn't read through all of your thoughts, being I didn't want to respond. But, you know, what you said is really extremely unfair, and saddens me that you are assuming what you are.

Since an introduction doesn't allow much more than a sentence, there is something I need to say here, that is extremely important to your post to me, about words I feel you've put in my mouth. I wrote what my experiences have been on 9/11 as I did in the Middle East in this thread. I've traveled the world, and if you've ever taken the time to read my profile you would know this. I thought we do those things before we speak out the way you just did.

So, you've said a mouthful, and I'm really saddened by what is on your mind, though, it's a good thing it's all out in the open.

Though, know, none of what you wrote means anything as it is 99.9% assumptions on your part.

Human Rights? I dont feel like I have rights on this group to speak when someone says what is in my mind and heart. What kind of rights are those? I never said what I felt you thought, I said that I felt it was insensitive, and who can dispute what I felt?

It would have been nicer if maybe you could have asked questions to me, like I did to you, rather than assume what I thought.

It's not a perfect world, but, respect means the world to me and I hope people go where they are respected and not dissed. This is surely a group where respect should be upheld and when a concern comes to a head about a member feeling something was said that they felt shouldn't have, it should be maybe be questioned as to why a member was saying this, could I be insensitive. Well, now we all know how you feel I'm really sorry to hear you feel this way

Shawdow Bear
8 years ago

I said I was shocked (so what?) I said I felt it was an insensitive comment (so what?) I thought I was allowed to say this, especially as they were my feelings to something you said. I wasn't attacking you more so than pointing out to you how I felt about what you commented on. I'm mature enough to move on with such feelings and carry on, I never said what it seems like your saying words I've never even thought. If you felt I said something that you thought was insensitive, I would take it with a grain of salt. I personally don't feel we should take everyones thoughts and feelings so personal, if I did, I would not be here. Please, don't be so silly as to me petitioning you I did believe that as  member of this group, I have a voice and I did not feel I used it in any manner that was dis-respectful, but truthful to my feelings. I'm sorry you seem to not understand that I can have feelings such as this, and move on with this, as I was (in not wishing to post to it again to end the discussion on my part) I really am sorry!

Goodnight!

Marla, this is getting tedious.
8 years ago
So you'd rather have a host who kisses America's butt at every turn, 'or else'? I am sorry you think I am unfit for the job - petition Ket to have me removed if you wish. I am not changing how I think and feel about this. I am sorry you choose to be offended by something that has been explained to you in a multitude of ways.

Your attitude to my posts is very eloquently proving my point about American arrogans and self-centeredness.

Where are the Memorial TV Shows for 7/7 and 20/7 or each and every terrorist act ever committed in the world?

Is the Turk Genocide on the Armenians less a Genocide just because the numbers of dead were smaller than in the German Genocide on the European Jews?

If you don't understand what I am trying to convey - then ask a straight question, don't assume and react emotionally on your own assumption as if it is fact.

Btw, do you know anyone who died in the Twin Towers on 9/11? Because if you didn't the only reason you are reacting to what I wrote, which has been said in other words, by others in this thread, is that you are American and you really don't care about the non-American people who died, you are upset because it happened in the US, if it had happened in Stockholm, I am sure you would not have cared half as much.

I dared to say something you understood as negative about America/US and that offended you. You are offended about what YOUR thoughts/emotions think I said.

This is an INTERNATIONAL Group that speaks of Human Rights all over the World, it is not an American Group concerned with American Rights. It has members from all over the world, and ALL opinions are welcome, provided they do not violate human rights. All human life is equally valuable - American lives are not worth more than any other life.

Dov
Lorna
8 years ago

Yes, there have been terrorism acts all over the world, no one is free from it happening to them...

I'm just wondering though, has there ever been the magnitude of MASSIVE skyscrapers coming down like on 9/11?

No way, shape or form am I even hinting at thinking it is above any other terrorism, though, I am speaking of that particular act of driving JET planes, into MASSIVE skyscrapers such as on 9/11.

That was a HUGE part of the shock.

Who is anyone to put it down?

I feel that it's insensitive to do, just as it would be to say something similar to any terrorist act that took place and killed others, it's rather disrespectful to those that have perished.

I came back to reply as I didn't wish for it to seem like I left without answering you. I most likely won't respond further, so, I wanted you to know this.

8 years ago

Poppy, sometimes the truth is never known

Sometimes even, the truth is right in front of our faces and we deny it

Sometimes, it's best to not know the truth as the truth can even be worse than the lies

(speaking in general terms)

8 years ago
Minus the  "I I" studdering, of course
Lorna
8 years ago

Maybe I should have added  that I I feel a host, in my opinon, should be less bias/opinionated. And, that I'm shocked a host in this group stated this:

It's time America stopped feeding the world the idea that something really big happened in New York on 9/11 2001 -

I feel there was no need for this, it comes off to me as being quite hateful , especially to a host here

TERRORISM
8 years ago

1 : a state of intense fear
2 a : one that inspires fear : SCOURGE b : a frightening aspect <the terrors of invasion> c : a cause of anxiety : WORRY d : an appalling person or thing; especially : BRAT
3 : REIGN OF TERROR
4 : violence (as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands <insurrection and revolutionary terror>

PLEASE NO MORE SYMPATHY
8 years ago

All I want is truth and justice. . . America has its own terrorsist the KKK, skinheads, crips, bloods, ayrian nation, maffia, drug dealers, drug addicts, rapist, child molesters, government. . . you can't point fingers on one individual idea. . . it is all around us. . .

All I want is truth from our government. . . terrorism is never ever going to die. . . it has been an almost instinctual human obsession of power inducing fear over the weak. . . or anyone. . . including the earth, sky, and sea. . . .

1 : a state of intense fear
2 a : one that inspires fear : SCOURGE b : a frightening aspect <the terrors of invasion> c : a cause of anxiety : WORRY d : an appalling person or thing; especially : BRAT
3 : REIGN OF TERROR
4 : violence (as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands <insurrection and revolutionary terror>

8 years ago
Suuuuuurrrreee you can trust the governement and ignore the "propaganda" - just ask an American Indian.
8 years ago

<<This to me is a human rights issue as I see statements made here that are saying it is no big deal that people are killed in terroirism, not just in the states, but world-wide. and, other statements made that don't come off to me as something one would say if they cared fully about the human rights of others.>>

I'm sorry Marla, we appear to have read the same words differently. We all seem to have a different perspective on this, that doesn't make anyone wrong.

This may seem like a sidetrack, but I'm reminded of a little old lady that I met when I was with Rape Crisis. There were two rapes close together in time. A 15 year old girl and then shortly after an 80 year old woman.

This 80 year old woman was amazing. I got to talk with her a week after and she explained to me.

She felt more sorry for the young girl because this young woman had no life experience to put it all in perspective. The elderly woman had lived through a depression, WW2, two stillborn babies, lost a son in an accident and lost her husband to cancer. As she put it, as bad as it was, this wasn't the worst thing that had happened to her. For the young girl this WAS the worst thing that had happened to her.

I believe this is what Shadow Bear was talking about. Putting things in perspective. We all have a different perspective. We can't expect everyone to feel as we do and continue that forever at the same level. It doesn't mean they don't care. If everyone continues to compare every other terrorist attack with Sept 11, then are we supposed to scale our horror down for all those, since fewer people died?

I was appalled at Sept 11, as I watched it all unfold on the news. (Here it was Sept 12, my son's birthday. He woke up to "have you seen this? oh  btw happy birthday" lol.)

I actually stayed up for 72 hours talking with distraught people on the internet, watching the news, hoping for survivors and feeling great pain for those involved. I felt like an online counsellor and was happy to have the chance to do it and to help a little. The people I talked with were relieved to have someone there, so grateful for every good wish, every word of support.

Two days later, many of these same people were abusive towards the rest of the world because 'we saved the rest of the world, but no one cares about us' and 'you can't know what it's like unless it's happened to you' and words to that effect. All recognition of help, support and sympathy was forgotten.

The thing is, it has happened to the rest of the world. It is still happening. I was in the British army in the 70's, when the IRA was very active. I spent untold nights on a freezing parade ground because of bomb scares on our base, often in the block where I lived.

I have been on duty on some of those nights, where I have had to go through and clear the block, while everyone else is running out of the building I'm running into it ... that has to be one of the scariest times I ever faced. The pub that was targetted in the Guildford pub bombing (see the movie 'Name of the Father' with Daniel Day Lewis) was my local. I would normally have been in there, but luckily I wasn't that night. People I knew were though. I narrowly missed the lunchbar explosion at Euston station. I had been there and had left to catch a train a few minutes before. There are numerous other instances. I personally was lucky. Friends were not.

I was very proud of my English birth when I saw the news on 7/7. It seemed like a glimpse of the 'spirit of the blitz' that I had heard so much about, the stiff upper lip perhaps. The English have been through it all so many times, their perspective is different. My perspective is different. We are more like the elderly woman, who has had so many things happen.

Although there have been terrorist attacks on the US in the past, by comparison I get the feeling that the US is the young girl. This is the worst thing that has happened and that is the perspective you have. This is meant with the greatest of respect.

Marla,
8 years ago
"I see this as a disrespect for those that this happened to. This to me is a human rights issue as I see statements made here that are saying it is no big deal that people are killed in terroirism, not just in the states, but world-wide. and, other statements made that don't come off to me as something one would say if they cared fully about the human rights of others. Maybe it is not a direct human rights issue, but, it is not words one should expect from somone that cares about the rights of all.  I still see a huge relation to us not to make a small issue of all the deaths, as the lives lost is a human rights issue for us to live safely and prosperous."

I wonder if you have been reading my posts at all apart from that first one.

"What I am trying to convey is not disdain for the actual victims (3000+ people and their families) of the 9/11 terror attack in New York -

"do I think it is any worse than the parliment buildings in London blown up by IRA or a bus full of school children blown up in Israel - no, I don't - do I think it's any less? No, I don't.

"I understand the that the families of the victims of 9/11 need to commemorate and that they will always remember and feel awful because of 9/11 - but it is an AMERICAN affair.

"While I do realize that 9/11 was an act of terror, and as such horrible in itself, and I feel sympathy for those who actually lost loved ones in that disaster, as I would for any other stricken by an act of terror or disaster..."

Dov
8 years ago
"I don't feel we should dismiss any terrorisim at all as being something that happens every day so it should not be something that is a big issue and needs more sensitivetly towards it than is given in the above posts."

I have not dismissed anything. Acts of terror is something that happens every day all around our globe. 9/11 is just another such event, equal to all other acts of terror, because the number of dead is irrelevant, something you yourself pointed out: "To me, if it is just one person, it is TOO MANY people".

Should we "downplay terrorism" - absolutely, because if we make a big issue out it and blow single events out of proportions we are playing into the hands of the terrorists - they want attention and the US is giving it to them.

Look at how the Brittish handled the terror attack in London on 7/7 - no yelling and screaming, no week-long 'Breaking News' coverage...no chest-pounding patriotic speaches on prime time television. Just matter of factly stating that "we are going to get these guys" - and two weeks later they did - without a lot of fanfares.

There is a huge difference in attitude, and that is what I am getting at here.

But then I am Danish - we re-acted to the German occupation by simply placing our bicycles up against their tanks on Radhuspladsen in Copenhagen...

Dov

Statements like this:
8 years ago

Just stop asking for sympathy and stop making this into such a biggie, cause it really isn't. It's time America stopped feeding the world the idea that something really big happened in New York on 9/11 2001 - things like that, and the fear and anger happens all around the world if not on a daily basis, then at least on a weekly basis.

I consider not truthful. Who is asking for sympathy? Not the majority of Americans, but the administration? I admitted to agreeing war is not the way to end it, but in my opinion it only aggravates it, but, I feel this is something to discuss as to me and many I know it is insensitive to say such things about the loss of lives. I don't feel we should dismiss any terrorisim at all as being something that happens every day so it should not be something that is a big issue and needs more sensitivetly towards it than is given in the above posts.

8 years ago

Lorna, I respecfully disagree, I see someone putting terrorism as a thing  that means nothing and taking what a very small minority feel and say as the truth of issues that deserve better respect. I see this as a disrespect for those that this happened to. This to me is a human rights issue as I see statements made here that are saying it is no big deal that people are killed in terroirism, not just in the states, but world-wide. and, other statements made that don't come off to me as something one would say if they cared fully about the human rights of others. Maybe it is not a direct human rights issue, but, it is not words one should expect from somone that cares about the rights of all.  I still see a huge relation to us not to make a small issue of all the deaths, as the lives lost is a human rights issue for us to live safely and prosperous.

I own this feeling as others own theres, and if I am the only one that feels this way here, well, so be. I personally felt it important to discuss, just as others feel it important to discuss other issues, I don't have to agree they are issues for them to discuss them.

This was sort of knawing at me....
8 years ago

"The shock value of 9/11 to the Americans was not, that a lot of people died and some buildings were destroyed. People were shocked to realize that USA isn't untouchable".

As being one that was less than 10 miles from ground zero, I have to say I totally disagree with you... Not only was I involved with volunteering in helping masses get the needed resources after the attack, I was as well involved in helping with helping in giving social services to thousands of people. "

This is an opinion of yours and rightfully you own it, but, as an American, I can personally say, that the SHOCK was the death and destruction and gall to what happened and the so called meaning that it had.

I don't feel there is EVER one reason for anything that happens, and I don't understand how someone that was not in nyc let alone the states can make such definite statements of truth, when they are personal opinons.

As I saw it as an American that lived less than 10 miles from gound zero and volunteered to assist in getting needed help to victims and familes in material ways and helping to supply social services to litereally thousands of people, I adamently disagree that what you say can be a blanket statement as it's not how people thought. It was the magnitutde of it all... I know more american citizens that are formally from other countries that saw plently of terrorism and even they said, it touches the world eventually, as terrorists are not out for one people, they are out for anyone that are not them.

It was the BIGGEST terrorist attack on American ground, and for the massive buildings as they were, to fall the way they did (if you've never been inside them or across the street from them, you will never understand how the shock was and the horror of it falling and the smell of buring carcass. You can think what you want, but, the Trade buildings were there for the world to make money, so, unless one is against this, yes, it would be a "bad thing".  I even saw it written in other countries newspapers that Americans lied, that there is no such buildings here that has trade with the world... Go figure, eh? I heard more stupid comments and of course used my head and did not believe them as they were being made out of ignorance.

Just like saying it was the first, is misinforming, as America has had many terrorist attacks on its grounds, and many that were foiled before 9/11.  Matter of fact, the same building had been attacked just a few years prior, had it's garage blown up. I know of some people that were critically injured in it, seen it with my own eyes.. So, if what you are stating here is something you heard from media then you are not getting the whole story and in this, I am not surpirsed as we all need to work hard to keep the (world) media in check. Though, I tend to think if something doesn't happen on ones "homeland", it does not have the same implact, may even mean little to them. Unfortunately, not enough folks can stand almost in the middle and care about what happens to all, it is possible, but many have their own selfish reasons such as not liking a certain nation of people because of how they feel they all act, or not liking the government as they feel that must be how the people feel.

Like I said earlier, until any of us speak to the people that are touched by terrorism, which are individual experiences, we should not judge what the over all population thought or feels by what media can portray and does. If it sounds like it will shock, it will be put forth to the world. Media can do some very cruel things to make the almighty buck. As, well, other countries had their own media that did not report properly in holding back information to control it's people and their own opinons. I know this, as I have friends from many countries in which this was done, some were arab countries where they heard total lies that when my friends informed me, I was astonished. They were ones as stupid as,  our President laughing when he found out about the attack, they said they saw this on the news, him laughing.. Has anyone else seen that? I've yet to hear anyone say they saw this but just the one region of the country that maybe wanted to control it's peple into thinking this?And, they get more hideious than even that.  

We surely know media that disturbs and sways opinion don't we? Or is media this perfect entity that does no wrong?

Is the so called conspiracy theory of 9/11 not one that is swaying by others?  Personally, I respect one to have such an opion though I need more than whats given to consider it a conspiracy, no matter how rotten a government can be about the way they can handle other issues. I feel that not knowing anyone that has personally was killed in a terrorism act would not be on

 not them.
Thank you Lorna,
8 years ago
I wondererd at that too.

Dov
honest question
8 years ago

I'm puzzled as to what Human Rights have been affected here. Sympathy has been expressed for those directly affected, no one is supporting terrorism, or denying the right of the US to express its grief or remember the occasion.

I can understand that it would make you sad to feel that others have moved on, but does that make it a Human Rights issue? Could you put it in a statement for me, as in "the right to ..." so that I can understand it better?

<<and on a group called Human Rights Network have such feelings that come off to me as being unequal rights for all,>>

No,
8 years ago
"Because one feels terrorism is something that's been going on for the "beginning of time" (my words) does not mean it is something that should ever be desensitized."

Desentitized means 'not sentimental', not indifferent, which it seems you believe I and others voicing our distaste with how the US has capitalized globally on the events of 9/11. I also think that you are mistaking my criticism of how the entire thing was blown out of proportions for a feeling that it was not an act of terror or that terror shouldn't be fought. I am simply not sentimental about the matter of terrorism - perhaps because I live where I live and face very personal terrorism every time I step out-side my door.

I do agree with Ket on this point:"I watched the 9/11 live in my living room, and ran to the computer to express my condoleances to all my American friends. It didn't take long before the "NO-ONE cares about us, EVERYONE just wants OUR help, but when something happens to us, NO-ONE helps" song started... it felt like a bucketful of icecold water and cooled down my compassion very quickly and effectively."

An allegory:

If I want my house to be burglar-proof I get better security, alarms and fences around my property, I get guard-dogs, which I keep in MY yard and I turn any burglars they catch over to the Police - I don't demand that my neighbor better his security, alarms and fences - and I certainly don't demand that my neighbor allow me to post MY guards in his living-room and yard or that he turn any burglar he happens to catch over to me, to be beaten up in my basement. I definitely do not send my guards and my dogs to another city, to hunt down burglars. Nor do I demand that my city and every city in the country, who have their own buglar-problems, stage a parade to commemorate the first burglary committed against me. Nor do I invade the Town Halls of other cities with my guards and dogs, imprison the Mayor and set myself up as Mayor "Because these people don't know how to run a city."

I simply put up better fences, install better alarms, buy some guard-dogs and accept the fact that burglaries happen. I do what I can to create effective burglar alarms, and if my neigbor's house is buglared, I ask nicely if he needs any help, and give him what he asks for, not what I think he needs and I do it on his conditions.

I think you get my drift here.

Dov

It is rather called
8 years ago

German Americans, not American Germans.

Because in my country, we hold where we come from, and why we are here, to a big importance. We are first what we were as a people, and then we are what we become where we found a place we can live safer and better than where we came from. Yes, not always, but mostly and we will continue to fight to remove the present administration and have leadership that actually does what the majority of people want. My grandparents suffered horribly in the Russia of the late 1800's and lived on the streets for years before they could come to America to live safely and have opportunities to make a nice life for themselves here in working hard and having family, when in Russia, my grandfather was forced to fight in the Russian Army, beaten daily as he was a Jew, and took the chance of having him and his wife killed being he had a death threat over his head from AWOL'ing from the Army. These are the chances we take in life to have better lives. Now, are they best we all can have, no, at times they are not, but, lets never forget why we are where we are.

correction
8 years ago

How the media of the WHOLE world handled it was even more despicable than how the American administration handled it.

Should be,

How the media of the WHOLE world handled it was just as despicable as the American administration handled it.

8 years ago

No, I am actually not hurt by this, but saddened (thanks Ket for understanding this) that people, and on a group called Human Rights Network have such feelings that come off to me as being unequal rights for all, though, not saying they are what you believe, just what I feel from reading opinions.

Because one feels terrorism is something that's been going on for the "beginning of time" (my words) does not mean it is something that should ever be desensitized. This is what I find really sad. I would think it is one of the most important Human Rights we have, to live life without being blown-up by anyone, yes ANYONE, whatever their race, nationality, color. I am appauld at anyone that thinks they can control anyone by showing how easily they can kill to supposidly get what they want. It does not work and downplaying does nothing for it, in my opinion.

How the administration in America handled it is another story in itself. How the media of the WHOLE world handled it was even more despicable than how the American administration handled it.

Is that a reason to downplay it? Aren't we who wish to uphold Human Rights for all to live happy and peaceful lives supposed to be outraged by all terrorism and understand that what ones government does is usually NOT what the people feel? Especially, when most of us here understand it is not the majority that come off as sounding selfishe? When do we ever second guess what a whole people feel about something?

Because the Holocaust happened, why in the world would I hold all German people, past and present responsible for it and not be sensitive to them even for being blamed as being insensitive?

Heck, I am married to an American German and am part of a massively huge American German family now that half speak German and visit Germany regularly. I live in an area of the country that encompasses mostly American Germans, I believe I am one of the only Jewish people in my neighborhood of more than 10,000 citizens. I would NEVER ever think of saying to one of them, no matter what they said to me, that what happened by the Nazi party is something that is just "another thing" and that predjudice and hate has been going on from the beginning of human existance and will continue.

One can go on and on about governments being hateful and not doing the right thing, though, all I am asking is if you hate a government, just say so, but, please, don't let it get the best of you in saying it is "JUST" something that has happened. I would believe no matter what a government does or says, we should always wish to consider these important issues that are HUMOUNGOUS problems in our world as to every citizen having the right to live a free and safe life.

Yes, terrorism can not be controlled totally, so, in this I agree, but, to desensitize it in my own opinion is a disservice to everyone.

I am just really suprised that anyone would take what some idiot sent someone in e-mail or stated on t.v as speaking for over 100 million people, seriously. Maybe it is because my life has been one that I have been exposed to huge amounts of people with varied opinions that I understand this better than someone that has not? This is very possible, though, I wish to bring this forth as something we need to end as it leads to more hate.

There was a wondfurl Canadian article written right after 9/11  It stated that the Americans have helped the world for years and years and when 9/11 happened so many looked the other way. Oh, and no, I am not so naive to understand the American government is not one that has ever done this, as one just has to look at the uprising of Natzism that was taking place and how America was guilty of not wishes to get involved (turning their heads) until it was already festering into something that was out of hand, to say the least. I do believe if this government (AM.) and others that looked away, hadn't that, it is likely millions of lives would have been spared and for this I do have hate for those that "looked away. I believe those that did have and will pay for  it, as the saying "what goes around, comes around".

What I hate about my government is that we help so much around the world, have been there for so many that are suffering, that the world tends to believe it is expected, which is where my government got such a big head and thinking themselves as such a stupid word as "SuperPower". We have so many suffering here in the states, without a place to live, food to eat, better education due to not having jobs because they are going overseas because it is cheaper...the government is doing this to the people by making it difficult for business to sustain themselves here. So, jobs are given to other countries, which is a  good thing (telemarketers in India (I know a few personally, are making American $12 an hour where one in the States was making $7..they can do this as the cost for running the company over all is cheaper out of the States, taxes, operational, etc.) , so, it's a double edged sword.

How we can not sympathize for all that are suffering is beyond me.

I don't need to know anyone anywhere that has been touched by pain and suffering and death to feel for them, to want to make changes for them, that is WHY we are all here on this network, at least this is why I THOUGHT we were.

I;ve seen a number in this group say in other groups, how they did not like Americans and they were not speaking of just the government. I personally feel that until one knows any people as a whole, this is rasism at it's worst.

I really dispise blanket statements and feel they don't belong on this group. I am seeing a lot of hate in your messages and frankly am shocked. Maybe I am the only one, so be it, but, I won't stand by and not state my feelings toward it.

I'm sorry that you are saddened by SB's comments.
8 years ago
It is not to disregard human life or suffering, it is a reaction to that 9/11 has been blown out of proportions.

The shock value of 9/11 to the Americans was not, that a lot of people died and some buildings were destroyed. People were shocked to realize that USA isn't untouchable. The rest of the world has been subjected to terrorism for a very long time... So the message was not "you are next". It was "OMG, WE can be targeted too!!!"

I watched the 9/11 live in my living room, and ran to the computer to express my condoleances to all my American friends. It didn't take long before the "NO-ONE cares about us, EVERYONE just wants OUR help, but when something happens to us, NO-ONE helps" song started... it felt like a bucketful of icecold water and cooled down my compassion very quickly and effectively.

I started to remember some things, for example that the population of USA is 300.000.000 and 3000 people among that is about the same as if 30 Palestinians were killed in a terrorist attack. Compared to the population of New York, it is as if 60 people in Tel Aviv were killed in a terrorist attack. Since 2000 in Israel-Palestine people have died in terrorist attacks equivalent to half a million Americans.

I also noticed that as far as I know, I don't know anyone who knew anyone who died in 9/11. It is hard to feel sympathy to someone whose only connection to the incident is nationality... especially when I know that there was very many nationalities represented in the incident, and when I know people who actually have had their friends and family killed in terrorist attack.

World Trade Center's twin towers in New York has not been any symbol to me. (Symbol of world trade is more this: $ ) They were a landmark of New York, but New York is still there and will get other landmarks. If Statue of Liberty is attacked, USA and NY will survive that too. Houses - how ever big, important and "symbolical" - are only houses.

The list of terrorist attacks is too long to be published here - if we were to remember every date of a terrorist attack, there would not be days left for anything else. What we need to do is not to consentrate on one single incident among thousands, but to remember that terrorism exists, what are the reasons of terrorism and try to do something about that - and remember that almost every day someone dies because of terrorism.

Israelis killed since September 2000
Palestinians killed since 29 September 2000
List of terrorist incidents at Wikipedia - short one

Also, one could remember how USA responded to 9/11 - "War of Terrorism" - so far it has caused the death of several thousand soldiers from USA, Iraq, Afghanistan and their allies, and thousands of civilians...

Ket

9/11 conspiracies
8 years ago
there is a group for that; 9/11 CONSPIRACY!

I find conspiracy theories entertaining, but when people start taking conspiracy theories seriously, people have trouble. It is more important to understand that EVERYONE USES PROPAGANDA.

Question everything, trust no-one, double- and triple-check information and don't believe everything you read.

We are emotion-junkies, all of us. Human beings love emotions and love to get their emotions manipulated - we pay to people to manipulate our feelings - we buy music, films, books and watch ads and commercials so fondly that no-one protests, when cities, towns and landscape are littered with billboards and light signs.

In Finland there were two opposite campaigns - one tried to keep us out of EU, the other tried to get us in the EU - the anti-EU campaign was calm, sensible and objective, the pro-EU campaign was emotional, hysterical and based on wild speculations and horror images of the future without EU. Guess which side won? Yeah... Finland is part of EU today.

Propaganda is based very much on the emotions, so if you get emotionally affected, see inside your head the sign:
"PROPAGANDA ALERT: SEVERE!!!"

Oh, yes, I forgot...
8 years ago
What does 7/7 and 20/7 mean? Nothing, right? Wrong! To the Spanish and the English it means a lot - do you hear them making any demands on the world?

Dov
I did see the actual events as they
8 years ago
happened as we do get CNN over here and it was the Breaking News for almost a week - do I think it is any worse than the parliment buildings in London blown up by IRA or a bus full of school children blown up in Israel - no, I don't - do I think it's any less? No, I don't. And that is just it. The Americans, I think, in general, see this as a HUGE deal, not because it killed a lot of people, but because it happened "to Americans".

Terrorism has been an everyday reality in a lot of countries for ages - did America care? Have they been hunting Palestinian terrorists on behalf of Israel all these years? Have they been chasing down ETA members to help out the Spanish? When was the last time American soldiers hunted for IRA terrorists to assist the English? Did the Americans help West Germany against their terrorists in the 70's? No and Never and No.

But suddenly, what has been happening to a load of other countries happened in the US, and immediately it is demended of the entire world that we aid, assist, help and support the American Nation in it's self-proclamied "war" on terrorism.

Those who say that this is another Pearl Habor are right - the US didn't care about what happened in Europe or elsewhere until they were themselves attacked - and then it became a matter the US demanding to run the show and now, 60 years later, demand all the credit - just remember "Freedom Fries"...

This is not a criticism of the idea of combatting terrorism or an attempt to down-play the loss of life, it's a criticism of the US and the way it has exploited a tragedy to further it's own goals through political, emotional blackmail
and at gun-point.

Dov


Typo Correction
8 years ago
"and hold us hostage"

Should read: "and hold us, the rest of the world, hostage"

Dov
Naturallynice - let's see if I can explain a little better...
8 years ago
I am sorry you were hurt. Maybe you will undertsand a little better after this:

While I do realize that 9/11 was an act of terror, and as such horrible in itself, and I feel sympathy for those who actually lost loved ones in that disaster, as I would for any other stricken by an act of terror or disaster - I have great problems having sympathy for the entire American Nation on acount of 9/11.

All sorts of things, from the Patriot Act to re-naming French Fries and invading whole countries, whisking away people from neutral countries in the middle of the night to dark places of torture, detaining children and demonizing an entire group of people, imprisoning people without trial, torturing same said prisoners, have been done in the name of 9/11 - as a re-action to ONE single act of terror (the number of casualties are actually irrelevant, as one person is one too many). Try to see this from a European point of view - the same sort of thing has happened in Europe, and long before 9/11 - the English has lived with IRA for decades - you don't see them commemorate and demand that the rest of the world commemorate every act of terror committed against the English on English soil, England didn't invade Ireland or demand that every country in the world start hunting down Irish terrorists, nor have they demonized the entire Irish people or all Catholics because of it. Or the Spanish and ETA. Or Israel and Palestinian terror organizations.

I understand the that the families of the victims of 9/11 need to commemorate and that they will always remember and feel awful because of 9/11 - but it is an AMERICAN affair. And it should stay on American soil, it shouldn't be pushed at the rest of the world as something that has never happened before, as something that the rest of the world OWE America something because of. "If you are not with us, you are against us..." "The French are not eternally grateful that we helped them with the Germans, so we will re-name French Fries and call them Freedom Fries instead...", "The Swedes question our credibility on the matter of WMD's in Iraq (Hans Blix is a truly evil and anti-American man), so we will simply kidnap a couple of their citizens and bring them to Egypt for torture, because we SUSPECT that they had a cousin who was associated with the Al-Qaeda ten years ago..."

Loads of countries offered help, sympathy and support right after 9/11 2001 - and what do I still get in my mail? A long poem about how no-one helped, no-one stood up for the Americans - yes, I know that particular poem was originally (long before 9/11 2001) written as a satire by, I think, a Canadian - but the people sending it to me, posting it on Web pages in honor of American soldiers and the victims of 9/11 2001 don't read it as satire or intend it as satire.

What I am trying to convey is not disdain for the actual victims (3000+ people and their families) of the 9/11 terror attack in New York - but a distaste for and a frustration with how it has been blown out of proportion, hijacked by the rest of America to be used as a means to manipulate and hold us hostage and demand sympathy and 'assistans' in anything remotely associated with the events up to and around the events of 9/11, including having OUR media dance to the American pipe and commemorate 9/11 American style - thus disrespecting those of the 3000 who were not Americans, but merely working for companies with bases in the US, and THEIR families.

Is it clearer now?

Dov

8 years ago
I bus / A Bus
8 years ago

The last time I was in Israel, I bus was blown up just a few blocks from us...

We had gotten off that bus a few minutes prior....

just a little thing, that's all, eh?

(I just feel your post was insensitive, though, I accpet it as being your opinion, but hope you may understand better by others opinions on it)

I have not looked at the video
8 years ago

I was just "passing by" trying to get off Care2 to go to bed and looked at my group page and this caught my attention.

Cubbie, I am VERY sad by your comments and even feel they are made to sound hurtful, though, maybe you did not mean it, but, it seems as if you don't care who you hurt in saying them, maybe that is a better way for me to say it...  

I am horrified when the "smallest" acts of terrorism happen. To me, if it is just one person, it is TOO MANY people. It is the message behind it that is HUMONGOUS!!! What happened on 9/11 was massive in message, not to just the states, but to anyone that is not an extreme Islamist! It is saying to the world, "you are next". This was the message. There were 3 buildings that were totally destroyed ( I need to upload my own photos into my photo album to show you the frame that stood) Two were over 100 stories, these buildings were symbols of the world, get it, World Trade? The whole world was represented in these buildings, not just "Americans".

There is no JUST. JUST would be JUST for every terrorist attack and I am sorry but I FOR ONE believe it is a HUGE DEAL, and HUGE PROBLEM and quite honestly am quite surprised by your reaction and opinion on how you feel about 9/11 and any terrorism. I don't think it should be any bigger or any lesser than any other terrorism attack on anyone and we as a world need to deal with it appropriately, which in my opinon war is not. There are other ways that would not harm innocents, there are ways to harm terrorists when there is hard evidence as to who they are....admitting to it would be the numero uno (i know some spanish ) way of knowing, to me.

Should we just maybe downplay terrorism? Maybe they will all just go away if we do?

I certainly do not agree with how my own government chooses to deal with every situation of terrorism, though, I believe we as a world do need to try to protect against further acts. How, well, there are many ways I take, but, I am no expert, so, I can't tell you the best way.

I hope no one here ever has to experience losing a loved one in terrorism...it is senseless.... though, I wonder if feelings about terrorism would change if  G-d forbid this did happen? I pray it never happens, just want us to all try to empathize with each other, thats all.

Care2 explain your feelings further?


El Yid has received 126 new, 2795 total stars from Care2 membersEl Yid has been awarded 95 butterflies for taking action at Care2 El Yid S.
 Saturday, 10:01 PM
One reason why I for one isn't interested in anything that has to do with 9/11 is that it's been made into this humongus issue in the States. Attacks and terrorism is nothing new or unique, it wasn't invented on 9/11 2001 and it certainly does not warrant the attention and the propaganda machine it has generated. I really don't care if it was the Al-Qaeda, the ETA, the Libyan Government, the Israeli or the Bush-administration who planned and executed the whole thing.

Just stop asking for sympathy and stop making this into such a biggie, cause it really isn't. It's time America stopped feeding the world the idea that something really big happened in New York on 9/11 2001 - things like that, and the fear and anger happens all around the world if not on a daily basis, then at least on a weekly basis. Yes it's horrible for those who loose loved ones, but it's not a matter that really warrant 5 years of war, sympathy-begging and hyped patriotism and/or more or less insane conspiracy-theories.

This is just another act of violence, like any other.

Dov

8 years ago
Ohh and this isn't even about terrorism anymore . . . it is about deceiving those to think there was. . .
8 years ago
I disagree when you  live in a political system that is for the people is should be not the oppisite. . . living in America isn't all it is up to be are younger gen's are so uneducated just being brainwashed by the TV shows about reality. . . living here is different yes and I don't want sympathy.... just for people to know what is going on in their country and it pretains to the whole world when america is so "Power of Pride"  hungry..... frankly I think the world could go without a few million people or so but that is not my place to judge. . .
Oh my I really should go to bed
8 years ago
I really am too tired to be posting! I didn't look carefully enough,,, sorry I thought you were Elizabeth...good night.
Elizabeth
8 years ago

Thanks for your post, with a few notable exceptions....I agree with the sentiment whole heartedly. People in the US are so spoiled by the fabricated safety that they imagine is their due...people around the world live with terrorism daily...look at Israel and Thailand for example………(I do think however that the sheer number of people killed on 9-11, makes it, to a huge degree, notable on the tragedy list....and in that, unforgettable to us as a nation much like pearl harbor...) I also think its time we stopped living in a bubble and thinking that just because it happened to us, it is especially tragic, or that somehow we are and will always be "protected" from the realities of terrorism.  It made us more careful and hopefully more compassionate to the plight of others.

The "insane conspiracy theories" are nothing short of another fantasy fest for the reasonably challenged.  And hey now that ex-files are only showing re-runs, they do keep us entertained.

...hope you are doing well

8 years ago

oh...slow typer I am...that post was directed at Poppy.....

8 years ago
...think what you will...its a free country.....
8 years ago
One reason why I for one isn't interested in anything that has to do with 9/11 is that it's been made into this humongus issue in the States. Attacks and terrorism is nothing new or unique, it wasn't invented on 9/11 2001 and it certainly does not warrant the attention and the propaganda machine it has generated. I really don't care if it was the Al-Qaeda, the ETA, the Libyan Government, the Israeli or the Bush-administration who planned and executed the whole thing.

Just stop asking for sympathy and stop making this into such a biggie, cause it really isn't. It's time America stopped feeding the world the idea that something really big happened in New York on 9/11 2001 - things like that, and the fear and anger happens all around the world if not on a daily basis, then at least on a weekly basis. Yes it's horrible for those who loose loved ones, but it's not a matter that really warrant 5 years of war, sympathy-begging and hyped patriotism and/or more or less insane conspiracy-theories.

This is just another act of violence, like any other.

Dov

8 years ago
Dissagree when our own admin is lacking by far. . .
Poppy
8 years ago
That video has been around for quite a while. The lack of response to its posting, seems to echo the sentiment of many people that it lacks credibility....
8 years ago
No one has a view on this wow!  I am shocked
IMPORTANT VIDEO WERE WE LIED TO?
8 years ago
My friends, have we forgotten 9/11?  Do we really believe what we were told from the media. . . well my views were snapped unwillingly open and now I am angry. . . please view this movie online and pass it on to everyone including republicans may god help them.. . . they all can't be bad people

Here is the link  http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5137581991288263801&q=loose
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