MEDITATION ... how many Varieties of "Meditation" are their, for Heaven Sakes, on this crazy Planet? I know of so many, many by their Names Alone, but also many from intimate contact over my long years (68) with various teachings, practices and immersion into them. Dzogchen - Ati Yoga - is my "thing" now, but one MUST start [or not start] ... SOMEWHERE?  Where are YOU-YOU & YOU now?  Anything to share.  Any questions that people on this blog can weigh into? I have a lot of answers but am not in the mood for any more questions from my side, NOW!  I-I-I look forward to ANY and ALL of your comments!  Kindest loving regards,  Sapan Rinpoche                  

GO AHEAD ... What is Meditation?  How come there are so many kinds and pathways?

BLAZE AWAY ...                                            

 [ send green star]

Personally, I have NO INFO about this notion of an "Average Age" at which people take up some form of Meditation?  However we can, and ought to speculate!

Perhaps some form of "meditation" [perhaps several forms] as indicated by various "meditative states," or differing "states of consciousness or awareness" is something that occurs ... EVEN IN THE WOMB ... in Early Childhood ... and, in different "WAYS" at different periods of ones life! 

As an "adult" learned behavior, i.e., 1) one takes a class or reads about "How to Meditate," or receives certain specific instructions from a teacher, or "teacher (as somebody who may or may not be "leading" and providing "instructions" in a good way)," and 2) begins to block out times in his/her life to "Do Meditation" and 3) cops the attitude and sometimes strangeness of "being a Meditator," and so forth ... perhaps an "average age" would rest in the late 20's or early 30's, or perhaps even into the "40's" or, conceivably even much later, presuming that some people, perhaps many people do not come to "Meditation" (in some form) very late in life, often around the time of Death!  Hmmmm ... interesting question! I am not sure.

Let me have some FUN with this!  Here are some mock CLINICAL STUDIES from the "Journal of the Booch-Williams Unified Field Theory of Consciousness."  Okay?

[1] In a University setting, as part of an Experimental Psychology Course, George Stevens took a sample of 100 people from the age of 17 to 43, and asked them some questions about "Meditation," without defining "Meditation" in any way [other than through palpable connotations of the term, that could be generated by a fertile-minded person] and his trial resulted in the following values for the question: "At which age did you begin to Meditate?" which was a subset sample of the 100 people that had answered the question, "Do you Meditate?" -- those responding with "YES" to this question. There were 72 people in this subset. The answers ranged from a womb age of indeterminate months or weeks to age 43, the entire range of the sample. The mean was age 27. The Einstein-Bolzman displacement was upwards to age 33! The largest group in terms of "decades" was in the "20's" and the smallest group was in the "40's" and thus this is the way it was. Stevens is a Statistical Psychology Major at the University of Wisconsin, age 22, and plans to do research on "Meditative States" for a graduate degree.

[2] Patricia Patterson, Ph.D., at the University of Chicago, had an interesting study in which she also asked a sample of 47 people, all of whom claimed to be "Meditators," ages 21 to 67, specifically, "At what age did you start to Meditate?"  The average or MEAN answer was age 29. In another question, of a subset of these 47 people that claimed that they practiced "Calm Abiding" meditation, a group of 18 people, the MEAN was age was 22. This deviation from the larger group, downward, was attributed to the fact that nobody above the age of 43 had received any specific instruction in "Calm Abiding." In a later question about whether or not people had done "Shamata" meditation [another name for "Calm Abiding," the results were completely skewed in a small subset of only 7 test subjects, and the MEAN of that group was about age 16. Women were 14 and Men were 17. Other results regarding other forms of Meditation, such as "Vipassana" or "Insight Meditation" yielded similar results. The studies that Dr. Patterson is doing will be published in a Monograph in a journal of psychology.

[3] A team of four teen-agers in the Pilgrim Fellowship of the Congregational Church at Tacoma, Washington polled the entire congregation, with mailed out questionaires, for that specific church and only received 47% of the questionaires back. Although it is uncertain exactly what questions were asked -- said to be 20 questions -- there was a report that 40% of the group claimed to be Meditators. Specifically there was one question, "At what age did you begin to PRAY on a regular basis?" and the result was also obscure. About 85% said that they prayed, but the age question was skewed or incomplete. This would be an interest group of people to run a trial on, but this study was not effectively done.

Hmmm ... THAT IS ALL!  Um ... except ... "When, at what AGE, did you begin to study Meditation, if you did so?"  

Hey ... LuAnn, we need to do some more STUDIES! Who would like to help?  Any other ideas?  Any other GREAT QUESTIONS, like LuAnns? 

I do remember having some wierd experiences in the Womb. But my first "conscious" memory was at the age of 22-months when I had a clear demonstration from my Mom and the man shoveling snow in his driveway next door to our house, presumably,  of the contrast between SNOW (White) and COAL (Black) that the neighbor dug up. I well remember having HANDS & VOICES down at my (stroller) level, about the difference between White & Black. =sapan=

 [ send green star]

Hello Sapan and Luann;

This is a very interesting topic and, my education in psychology put aside, I have a theory about this that just came to me as this question was raised. Actually, I was thinking about it, but not in the context of meditation.

I remember as a small child doing very well in school and finding that learning came quite easily. Then, in the 5th grade, I got my report card at the end of the year. My marks were good but there was a comment from the teacher that devastated me. We had only been living in Canada for a few years (born in Austria, Yugoslavian parents) and I knew I would have to explain what this word meant to my mother. The teacher had written; "Sonja is an excellent student but she has a tendancy to 'daydream' too much."

So. To finally get to the point.....DAYDREAMING.

Interesting. Do you think Sapan, that daydreaming could be a very early experience for children with meditation? It is a place of deep concentration, with no effort, that most children can easily go to. Unlike sleep dreaming, which seems to address the unconscious, daydreaming has a chosen topic that one is able to totally concentrate on and imagine an outcome. Conscious dreaming, if there is such a thing in our vocabulary. Coming out of a daydream, you feel like you have been away and it takes a minute to reorientate to where you are.....unless you had a teacher like mine ...............

INTENTION is word that pops into my mind at the moment.....creating our outcomes through conscious visualization...self acutualization...

It is so sad, if this is so, that children are discouraged and even punished for this soothing and comforting reprieve into their imagination.........and then we spend the ladder part of our years trying to figure out how to get back into that state.....

I'd love to hear your take on this Sapan...

Blessings...

Sonja

 [ send green star]  [ accepted]

THANK YOU so much, Sonia, for raising this important question and underscoring your experience as a child. This is so important that it deserves a thread of its own, but I will make a reply here, hoping that many will add to the discussion.

WE ALL DREAM. In childhood, as well as throughout our lives, DAYDREAMING is one of the main ways in which we connect with our subconcious minds and with the RICH INNER NATURE that is "ours" alone. This will not be a perfect explication of all of that, but I would say that from the RICH RESERVOIR of our Consciousness, DAY DREAMING, LUCID DREAMING (which is generally connected to Sleeping States) and are ALL CONNECTED to our Pristine Naked Innate Inherent Awareness, the basic "Rigpa" or nature of our own minds. This PRISTINE AWARENESS, that we talk about in the foundations for Dzogchen Meditation, is primordially pure awareness. I would like to continue, RIGHT HERE, with some teaching by my Master, Longchen Rabjampa [1308-1363] as translated Alexander Berzin and others, appearing in the book, "Four-Themed Precious Garland," ... "An Introduction to Dzogchen, the Great Completness," published by the Library of Tibetan Works and Archives, Dharamsala, India, 1979 and reprinted many times, with an oral commentary by His Holiness Dudjom Rinpoche (d. 1987) and Beru Khyentse Rinpoche.

     "This VOIDNESS [my capitalization, as always, to EMPAHASIZE the word or phrase =sapan=] from the point of view of its being realized, taking into consideration that voidness transcends the division into consciousness and an object. Thus it is a way of talking about voidness as if it had a cognitive aspect. To be beyond the division into subject and object does not render voidness as something unrealisable, nor the realizer of voidness an inanimate object without any consciousness."

I know that this takes some time and rigor to GROK (understand) but bear with me, we will get back to my Cardinal Points in  "DAYDREAMING, LUCID DREAMING & MEDITATION" momentarily!

The commentary continues:

     "This is the sphere of (natural) nirvana, the great spontaneity, the ultimate level of level of truth, primordially pure. It has a nature with neither a beginning nor an end. It is clear light by nature -- profound, tranquil and free of mental fabrication. It is (pristine awareness) innate within you since time immemorial, the taintless Dharmakaya [df., Buddha Mind.  The 3rd turning of the Wheel of the Dharma teaches us that we ALL possess Buddha Nature, and that it is only our own obscurations, from lifetimes of Anger, Ignorance and Desire that "shield" us from that realization. =sapan=]. It abides as an actuality free from change and transition through the three times (past, present and future). This is the foundational sphere, the vajra essence of reality. Whoever understands it realizes the correct view of the abiding nature of reality. With over- and under-estimation pacified, you understand the essence of ultimate reality.  [!!! =sapan=]

Longchen Rabjam, the great Buddha & Bodhisattva that brought through the teachings of Dzogpa Chenmo, said:

    "To over-estimate reality is to interpolate that it is truly existent, when in fact it is not. Under-estimating it is to repudiate or deny its relative existence, for it nevertheless does appear. Therefore the understanding of ulimate and relative realities -- the two levels of truth -- is a middle path devoid of extremes. 

     "This conclues the discussion of the correct Dzogchen view. Next is hot to cultivate that view through meditation."

And so, hopefully to whet your appetite for further exploration and understanding, let me conclude with my Cardinal Points -- just some opinions that I have regarding our subject -- DAYDREAMING and so forth!   

     Sonia, I belive that your (our) daydreaming experiences are involving our innate primordial nature, and that this "pool of our consciousness," if you will, is part of what we deal with as we learn to quiet our minds, and understand the nature of our minds in MEDITATION, first in Calm Abiding or Shamata Practice, then in Vipassana or Insight Meditation, and, if we are so fortunate  ... in Dzogchen ... Ati Yoga ... The Great Perfection ... the highest pathway of Vajrayana or Tibetan Meditation, which requires due dilligence in the study, practice and cultivation of the techniques of meditation and that are of course all time-consuming, but are (perhaps -- YES, in my opinion) the best pursuits for us in actualizing our precious human life, not wasting it,  and obtaining LIBERATION! 

(CONCLUDED in the NEXT FRAME! =sapan=)

 [ send green star]

So, SONJA, Sonja ... not Sonia as I mispelled in the above post (FONTS are everything!) ... to conclude:

LUCID DREAMING, and there are many texts and teachings about this, is another thing that especially adults can cultivate. Have you ever dreamed in "technicolor" with all of the sound and fury or the enchantment of a full-blown or film? THE MOVIE! Perhaps like the cameraperson, viewing yourself or the scene from a point-of-view "off camera" in all of the lucid-dreaming glory? I have. I do this all of the time! Fortunately, I am way beyond having grade-school teachers observing my spaceyness and having to confront my (deceased) parents with the news!

There are many different NATURES & CLASSES of DREAMS! In DREAM YOGA, and higher meditation disciplines we learn to skillfully non-differentiate between DAY & NIGHT!  One that has learned to be constantly or mostly in meditation can maintain that state in Daytime activity and in Nightime activity. Nobody that I know of has ever seriously said that this would be easy. However, if we could do it, COMPLETE PRISTINE UNDISTRACTED NON-MEDITATION, a practice of Buddhas and some High Bodhisattvas and Meditation Masters would be the ideal situation! Believe me, I-I-I am not there yet, but I keep plugging away and dreaming and practicing my way towards that goal, and I have irreversible faith that, sooner or later, I shall arrive and pass through that portal. Maybe in this very life, maybe not ... maybe tomorrow morning!  Benefit others through your GENEROSITY, MORAL TURPITUDE, PATIENCE, DILLIGENCE, MEDITATION & WISDOM (the Six Paramitas or Perfections of the Mahayana Path of the Bodhisattvas), receive Empowerments and training in the Tantric Ways of Vajrayana, perfect Dzogchen Meditation and Practice, practice the correct Yogas, and maintain All Natural Health and Healing ... be in Basic Goodness towards all Sentient Beings, cultivate the necessary Karmic Propensities, Chop Wood, Carry Water, remember to practice B-R-E-A-T-H-I-N-G and not be too Breathless about it, AND you will get there!

Kindest regards,

Sapan Rinpoche  ... August 28, 2006 in Lyons

 [ send green star]

Blessings and gratitude Sapan. I have much to learn.

Sonja

 [ send green star]

 [ accepted]

As early as perhaps 9 or 10 I would go out on the front porch of our house and sit in the dark half the night when everyone else was asleep.  I was only interested in one thing, which I described to myself as "Eternity".  Because I could not think ABOUT eternity (or rather, thoughts about it dried up quickly) I found myself attempting to EXPERIENCE eternity directly.  Strangely enough, even though I was a very committed Presbyterian at the time, and would have been cast into a firey hell if I had ever been caught, I was in no way concerned with a deity when I was on the porch. These times were the only experience of religion that felt real for me until I took up the formal practice of meditation in my 20s. 

I would hesitate to call those late-night sessions "daydreaming", but I suspect they could be considered such.  If so, I was "Dreaming" with a capital D!!  The conscious co-creation of the universe seems to be what meditation is about for me.  Although I don't know that much about Dzogchen yet, the Primordial Experience, or Awareness, that I have read about and heard of seems related to my hanging out in eternity.  As soon as I was there, eternity lost any temporal or linear time sense, and I suspect the Primordial state is what I was looking for even then.

I'm looking forward to more exploration.  Thanks, Sapan, and everyone who is contributing to the group!!

thom

 [ send green star]

 [ accepted]

for being so refreshingly open about your experiences.  I'm wanting to reciprocate with an experience of expanded consciousness I slipped into by sheer "accident" when I was 15. 

It was an unhappy time of my life trying to grapple with my parent's extreme materialism and dare I say workaholism, when I went to visit my Aunt Dolly [none of my aunts and uncles were called by their birth names.  Smile].  Aunty Dolly was a treasure, warm and loving.  However, she lived on a wheat farm in the mallee area of Western New South Wales [Australia] and had never had a home with electricity or running water.  It was HOT and to have a bath, we had to pump water from the dam which was so low that the red dirt from the bottom of the dam was pumped into the bath!  Still it was a bath of a kind. 

Anyway, I then went to visit her daughter-in-law who just had a baby on the next property.  She was stirring nappies in a cauldron of boiling water in the shade of the house, but it was still HOT.  I was shocked at how close to the land she was living and how poor my relatives were, and yet they were happier in their way than my parents.

For some reason I turned away, probably to go back to my Aunt's and I was alone with my back to the setting sun, looking into the purple afterglow on the horizon.  Suddenly something happened.  An awareness.  A totally encompassing ONENESS and the colours of the yellow fully ripened wheat just glowed against the purple backdrop in the dark green gum trees.  Words fail.  A consciousness that didn't feel like consciousness... bigger than me.. but just there in heightened vividness.  "I" had melted perhaps in that moment, and "it" was without limit.  I was so small in this 'creation' and yet so big and part of the whole.  There was  peace in that moment.

I felt at the time that I was one with God's creation, because at this time, I was still exploring an authentic way to the God of my childhood.  I was brought up as a strict Sunday going Methodist, and stopped going to church or Sunday School when I was eleven, because one poor Sunday School teacher couldn't explain a key concept to me.  I had never heard of meditation at this time.

Unfortunately I lose the experience as I talk about it.  Reflecting on the experience now, it  was still contained by what I could see.  But there was some resonance with the vibrating life force of the scene that made me part of the whole that could have gone on forever perhaps. 

Was this a meditative experience?  If so, is there a label for this meditative state?  Was it a resonance with the primordial ground of being? 

I'd appreciate your interpretations.  How would you understand this?

Much warmth,

Merril

 [report anonymous abuse]  [ accepted]

THESE are Wonderful things, energies, experiences that you are reporting here. Really fine!  However, I think we need to all be able to look at our experiences like these and work a little harder to pass them -- REPROCESS THEM -- through the filters of our own Awareness. Let me give you and example, by addressing Merril's comments at the end of her post:

Merril says, or asks, actually: [Oh nutz ... did not copy to be able to paste it here " ... " [ONE MOMENT!] >>>>>>>

 [ send green star]

Merril ASKS: "Was this a meditative experience?  If so, is there a label for this meditative state?  Was it a resonance with the primordial ground of being?"

You see, we have the first gloss ANSWER here right in the questions. Three questions! First of all, the first two questions IMPLY some conceptual framework for something called "MEDITATION." Well, as a viewer, experiencer, commentator here, WHAT is your corpus of experience and mental or emotional or ratiocinative STATES, that YOU allow in your conceptual framework about what "meditation" is and/or is not?  Leading to the second question, which is coming from the same "INTELLECTUAL" basis: "If so, [i.e., IF & ONLY IF this was a "meditative experience"] is there a label for this meditative state?"  So now, in your conceptualizing, you want to be able to pick out the appropriate LABELS that you can apply to your conceptual framework about what meditation is and/or is not!

 So these first TWO questions point to something that is a BLOCK, KNOT, STUMP and so common in most of our attempts to grapple with primordial and inherently, intrinsically RAW experiences from, in fact, the very GROUND OF OUR BEING ... Merril has her answer, already in a pejorative question: "Was it a resonance with the primordial ground of being?" -- of COURSE IT WAS ... and so now your assignment, Merril, and all of us, is to go to the chalkboard and write 100 variations of this question, as STATEMENTS:

1) This was an experience coming from the very (primordial) ground of my being!

2) This was a resonnating experience bouncing off the very ground of my being!

3) This experience seems to be coming right from the very core of my beingness, the very ground of my being and it resonates with and points to that very ground, or basis, or whatever we come to call it ... label it ... say that it is, in attempting to describe it. Does this make sense? Do you hear what I am saying? Yes, this experience seems to be coming right from the very source of my awareness, the core of my being ... [and on and on]

4) This primordial experience comes from the (very) ground of my being.

5) This experience resonates and reflects, like the reflection of the moon on the surface of the water in a small pond, disturbed by little bugs, perhaps, the very primordial nature of my being (represented in one way by the body of water, etc.).

... And so forth ...

And also giving rise to the simple FOURTH question, which easily could have followed upon the first three. "Was it a resonance with the primordial ground of being, or, was it something else?"

====

COMMENTARY: So we have fundamental, AHA experiences, or maybe "primordial experience," or epiphenies, or FLASHES of awareness [about this or that in our mind streams] all of the time.

Of course we can break down the various ways that we use our minds -- BASIC PSYCHOLOGY, Psych 101 at the college level will have a few pages discussing the various kinds of things, types of thinking, day dreaming, problem solving, anger & anger management, desire & desire managment, ignorance & ignorance manangement, relections, action thoughts, thought actions, and so forth -- so check out your PSYCHOLOGY BOOKS for their conceptualizations about how our minds work. DIG deeper to come up with more LABELS. Get a handle on this MIND thing so that you can effectively say what you mean and mean what you say -- understand (conceptually) and explain (conceptually).

YOU SEE ... this is how our conceptual minds get in the way of our getting to know the nature -- primordial nature, if that sounds more deep and serious -- of our own minds.

Merril points to this in here previous paragraph, before she asks the three questions, writing:

"Unfortunately I lose the experience as I talk about it.  Reflecting on the experience now, it  was still contained by what I could see.  But there was some resonance with the vibrating life force of the scene that made me part of the whole that could have gone on forever perhaps." 

Was this an AHA experience? A peak experince?  "HEY ... did you see that flash of light just go around the room -- counter-clockwise? OH ... ACHA ... it was the Sun's reflection of that car window, of that car that just rushed by ... wasn't it? ... yes it was!" we say.

We learn in Madhyamaka Philosophy, in Higher Buddhism, that LABELING is one of our problems. Nagarjuna, in the 2nd Century, was so very much in understanding this on his ground-breaking work on Mahayana Buddhism.  

We bring to the study of meditation all of the concptualizations that we already have about it, whatever it is, and then add, and add, and add, our layers of further understanding and conceptualizing ABOUT IT ... and never get to the real "meditation."

It is like my answer here!  TALK, TALK, TALK!  Hmmm ... are you taking NOTES?

DZOGCHEN Meditation, and before that, "Insight Meditation" or Vipassana, and as a basis for that "Calm Abiding" or Shamata meditation. How about the "little brown bag lunch" meditation -- just eating whatever is in our lunch bag, without any additions or corrections or further wantings, and calling that LUNCH! Or just letting whatever thoughts come up in our minds, without any grasping or further elaborations, in fact no elaborations at all, and calling that (our) MEDITATION! If we do this sort of thing, which can run like a thread from our very earliest "attempts" at meditation -- if we are lucky, perhaps sessions in sitting meditation, just following our breath, our breathing, our systale and dyastole, breathing in, exhaling, and receive really good instruction about meditation from a really good instructor, like Merril, for example, then that letting go ...

 [ send green star]

... THREAD can continue through our experiences of Insight Meditation, Sky Gazing, Short Dzogchen-type meditations, and then full-blown Dzogchen Meditation ... and it all the same, that thread, and yet different all at once. The SAME THREAD, really, on different "Spools of Meditation ... um ... uh oh ... TECHNIQUE!"  Whoops ... here we are again, in the same trap that we started out with, I am afraid. FRAMEWORK. CONCEPTUALITY. Blocks, Knots, Interferances with ... um ... uh oh ... WHAT WE ARE DOING!"

"WHAT WE ARE DOING!"  The problem that we mostly all have with MEDITATION is the DOING of it!  We get caught up in DOING ... um ... ah ... MEDITATION!  "Oh ... hey ... sorry, my friend, I have got to go MEDITATE now! See ya later!" 

NOW, FINALLY, HERE IS ONE OF THE SIMPLE WAYS IN WHICH WE CAN CUT THROUGH ALL OF THE FLOTSAM & JETSOME ABOUT MEDITATION & MEDITATING. LET ME END THIS WITH A SIMPLE PASSAGE [which is Pure (preliminary) Dzogchen Instruction -- here a kind of Pointing Out Instruction!] from a Sakya Chenrezi, or Bodhisattva of Compassion, Sadhana or Ritual Meditation Text, where the great Rime & Kagyu (school, tradition) Master of the late 1800's, Jamgon Kongtrul the Great, inserted after the "Om Mani Peme Hung" mantra (of Chenrezi, Bodhisattva of Compassion, Sadhana), that provided a simple basis for contemplation of a Perfection Stage, which (should) follow the Generation Stage, leading up to the Mantra.

Setting the scene, we are sitting down on our little round cushion, or perhaps just on the floor [I, Sapan, cannot do this anymore, really.], or in a chair [now we're talking -- I used to really wig some people out in Seattle during some of our Dzogchen meditations, where a lot of people (group of 6 or 8 people in a session) would get into lots of different open-eye posturing, stairing up at the ceiling, or at a mote of dust on the carpet before them, and, I, =sapan=, would lie down comfortably on my side, or on my back, with eyes open, and ... meditate -- now we're talkin'] ... um ... ah ... MEDITATE!  You must use and perfect the best meditation posture that you can muster. Vairochana's suggestions are the classic one. But, as all the world knows, say I-I-I, Sapan, there are some post-modern ... um ... ah ... spins.

Here is the FRAGMENT: 

[NOW WAKE UP HERE & NOW ... RIGHT NOW!]

"[1] THERE IS NO MEDITATION, NOR ANY MEDITATOR; NO DEITY, NOR ANY MANTRA.

[2] HERE THERE IS NOTHING AT ALL TO BE REMOVED, NOR ANYTHING TO BE ESTABLISHED. 

[3] LOOK PERFECTLY AT PERFECTION ITSELF.

[4] SEEING PERFECTION, YOU WILL BE FREE.

[5] SINCE WHATEVER ARISES IS THE NATURAL CONDITION, IF YOU PAY ATTENTION AND LEAVE WHAT APPEARS ALONE, IT WILL APPEAR AS PURE EMPTINESS.

[6] WITHOUT QUESTION, THIS IS THE KING OF YOGAS."  

[7] ACHA!

Brief Colophon:  Verse 1 is drawn from the primary text of the Hevaja Tantra. Verses 2, 3 & 4 are from the Abhisamayalamkara of Maitreya-Asanga. Vereses 5 & 6 are from Resting the Mind, by the Indian master Mitradzokin. The final word, Verse 7, is from the lips of Sapan Rinpoche, to seal the exercise and to make you ask more questions, as long as you desire to remain in Samsara, a time-consuming process at best! Um ... ah ... ACHA!!!

Here is the FRAGMENT: 

 [NOW WAKE UP HERE & NOW ... RIGHT NOW!]

"[1] THERE IS NO MEDITATION, NOR ANY MEDITATOR; NO DEITY, NOR ANY MANTRA.

[2] HERE THERE IS NOTHING AT ALL TO BE REMOVED, NOR ANYTHING TO BE ESTABLISHED. 

[3] LOOK PERFECTLY AT PERFECTION ITSELF.

[4] SEEING PERFECTION, YOU WILL BE FREE.

[5] SINCE WHATEVER ARISES IS THE NATURAL CONDITION, IF YOU PAY ATTENTION AND LEAVE WHAT APPEARS ALONE, IT WILL APPEAR AS PURE EMPTINESS.

[6] WITHOUT QUESTION, THIS IS THE KING OF YOGAS."  

[7] ACHA!

 [NOW WAKE UP HERE & NOW ... RIGHT NOW!]

 [ send green star]

The sitting practice of stilling the mind in Zen practices is called "Zazen." In both Hinayana (Theravaden) & Mahayana Buddhism we have the practice of Shamata or Calm Abiding, which is a sitting practice to learn to stabalize the mind, after which one goes on to Vipassana or Insight Meditation. All of these things are ripe for discussion here and anybody that knows "answers" to questions asked, can weigh in with their knowledge.

To the best of my knowledge, in Zazen, there is no special Mantra practice, which is actually from the Tantric practices. As far as Zen Koan's are concerned, hmmmm ... I have a question: "How many Zen Koan's can you get on a meditation cushion ... at once?" I am sure that you can carry as many as you can carry there, and still find a desire for yet more! What do YOU think?

Meditation is a VAST SUBJECT and we are doing our best to scratch the itch, here, now!

 [ send green star]

Greeting Sapan and many, many, thanks. Before I read your replies today I was discussing meditation with a friend. We were getting into the details of appropriate postures when I began to laugh. I said; "When I think of meditation it brings to mind calmness, relaxation and hopefully as few thoughts creeping in as possible. If I have to WORRY about where I'm sitting, how I'm sitting, where my hands go, how I hold my head........and yes...don't forget to breath....properly that is." 

I hear you when you talk about over analyzing...hmm....I never noticed the first four letters of that word before....anyways....and I think this must be the most difficult thing to not do. Perhaps when we get beyond having to share our experiences and having them validated....and just be... 

 [ send green star]  [ accepted]

okay , these are the four main practices I have encountered in my "meditating life" that began at the age of 35 ( only to add to some statistics about average age )

each and every of them a good tool , a wonderful practice and a calming -of -the_ mind- one: if done on a regular base like brushing the teeth - as in meditation we need to train our "meditation muscles" similar to sports , in order to strengthn us in our ability to abide in the calm and quietening the constant chatter in our brain.

Well, just a short personal "note " on Koans - sitting zazen to me is already a Koan (just kidding): how can i live zazenning though coffee exists- this one is hard to (re-)solve

Meanwhile I use the practices as it appears appropriate at that very moment .some examples:

in times my monkey mind is out of order - I use Zazen - JUST sitting with what is going on. Still I feel that Zen is the hardest practice though a ver very very effective one. 

in times (like 9/11) when i feel helpless facing the suffering of the world  i go with Tonglen : breathing in suffering , breathing out grace/healing

if i feel my compassion is leaking i go with vipassana and do a Metta meditation .(e.g.may all beings be free from suffering and the causes of suffering and so on..... )

Entering the Silence , the core practice of my shamanic teachings, is more about opening to visions and guidance and i go there when I feel that this is what would be helpful and needed at that moment.

This is ver short cut . hope it added some aspects nevertheless.

best, Dagmar

 [ send green star]

 [ accepted]

"WHAT WE ARE DOING?!??"  The problem that we mostly all have with MEDITATION is the DOING of it!  We get caught up in DOING ... um ... ah ... MEDITATION!  "Oh ... hey ... sorry, my friend, I have got to go MEDITATE now! See ya later!" 

NOW, FINALLY, HERE IS ONE OF THE SIMPLE WAYS IN WHICH WE CAN CUT THROUGH ALL OF THE FLOTSAM & JETSOME ABOUT MEDITATION & MEDITATING. LET ME END THIS WITH A SIMPLE PASSAGE [which is Pure (preliminary) Dzogchen Instruction -- here a kind of Pointing Out Instruction!] from a Sakya Chenrezi, or Bodhisattva of Compassion, Sadhana or Ritual Meditation Text, where the great Rime & Kagyu (school, tradition) Master of the late 1800's, Jamgon Kongtrul the Great, inserted after the "Om Mani Peme Hung" mantra (of Chenrezi, Bodhisattva of Compassion, Sadhana), that provided a simple basis for contemplation of a Perfection Stage, which (should) follow the Generation Stage, leading up to the Mantra.

Setting the scene, we are sitting down on our little round cushion, or perhaps just on the floor [I, Sapan, cannot do this anymore, really.], or in a chair [now we're talking -- I used to really wig some people out in Seattle during some of our Dzogchen meditations, where a lot of people (group of 6 or 8 people in a session) would get into lots of different open-eye posturing, stairing up at the ceiling, or at a mote of dust on the carpet before them, and, I, =sapan=, would lie down comfortably on my side, or on my back, with eyes open, and ... meditate -- now we're talkin'] ... um ... ah ... MEDITATE!  You must use and perfect the best meditation posture that you can muster. Vairochana's suggestions are the classic one. But, as all the world knows, say I-I-I, Sapan, there are some post-modern ... um ... ah ... spins.

Here is the FRAGMENT: 

[NOW WAKE UP HERE & NOW ... RIGHT NOW!]

"[1] THERE IS NO MEDITATION, NOR ANY MEDITATOR; NO DEITY, NOR ANY MANTRA.

[2] HERE THERE IS NOTHING AT ALL TO BE REMOVED, NOR ANYTHING TO BE ESTABLISHED. 

[3] LOOK PERFECTLY AT PERFECTION ITSELF.

[4] SEEING PERFECTION, YOU WILL BE FREE.

[5] SINCE WHATEVER ARISES IS THE NATURAL CONDITION, IF YOU PAY ATTENTION AND LEAVE WHAT APPEARS ALONE, IT WILL APPEAR AS PURE EMPTINESS.

[6] WITHOUT QUESTION, THIS IS THE KING OF YOGAS."  

[7] ACHA!

Brief Colophon:  Verse 1 is drawn from the primary text of the Hevaja Tantra. Verses 2, 3 & 4 are from the Abhisamayalamkara of Maitreya-Asanga. Vereses 5 & 6 are from Resting the Mind, by the Indian master Mitradzokin. The final word, Verse 7, is from the lips of Sapan Rinpoche, to seal the exercise and to make you ask more questions, as long as you desire to remain in Samsara, a time-consuming process at best! Um ... ah ... ACHA!!!

A fuller exposition on the meaning of these verses, by the great 20th Century Sakya Master Deshung Rinpoche, will be given, with a short commentary by Sapan Rinpoche, in the blue-pinned thread entitled "THE KING OF YOGAS" in a few days, if I should be so fortunate so as to live that long! [Rememember IMPERMANENCE!]  =sapan=

... um ... ah ...

 [ send green star]

oh sapan, you inspired me to weigh in with one of my favourite books :

it is "enlightenment unfolds" by Kazuaki Tanahashi .

he studied the teaching of grandmaster Dogen for decades , and this book is kind of a summary. it is the only book making Dogen texts comprehensive i know ....!

and ...to cut it short , there is a chapter about Zazen , just sitting , in there ....and it is WORTH reading ! it points out a lot what you have done in your last contribution.

and i personaaly LOVE the work of Dogen , (since Kaz helped me to understand it )

anoher GREAT chapter is about the Mountains-and River Sutra ---- (Mountains are Mountains and Rivers are Rivers , but when you understand it as Mountains are Mountains  and Rivers are Rivers you have lost it     )  this is SOOOOO great and is a good thing to "use " when out in nature.....

 [ send green star]  [ accepted]

Sande, I want to thank you so much for your forthright report about your pigeon-assisted Meditation Session. I would like to take this discussion into our CALM ABIDING thread, which was started by one of your Australian Country-Woman, Merril Gardiner of Canberra, A.C.T.

Your report of attempts to FOLLOW THE BREATH and then your experiment with the PITUITARY GLAND MEDITATION are most interesting, and I would like to see you persue these things in your beginnings at Buddhist Meditation. I am out the door, on a Friday night, but will copy some of your post from this thread (and, again, I really enjoyed it, Sande) into a comment on the CALM ABIDING thread called "FOLLOWING THE BREATH" as soon as I can get back to it. I am happy to stay with you on this "Meditation" business, and will do so, both here in the group discussions, and in Personal Messaging (PM) also. It would be a wonderful thing for you to make contact with Merril Gardiner (PM her) and, as an experienced teacher of Calm Abiding, she will be very helpful to you as well. Take care, and keep working on it! =sapan=

 [ send green star]

Sandra, this is a wonderful, easily grasped take on two of the fundamental things that we are confronted with when we attempt to get some kind of handle or wrap our "Upstairs/Downstairs" mind around it. For my part, you definitely have added to the beautiful ways in which we can begin to describe MEDITATIVE STATES.

For your further edification and for all others, following this VITAL THREAD, actually packed with some Pith Instructions, see the next post about the Vajrayana Pathways Institute Without Walls, an ONLINE SANGHA, where I am into proceeding with my main attemps at, serioulsly, "treacherous" online teaching. Please consider, thoughtfully, joining that Sangha. Kindest regards to all, Sapan Rinpoche

 [ send green star]

After much consideration, I have decided to maintain this (precious) care2 site, but  really allow it to be a PORTAL into what is now my main teaching and online Dharma activity here on care2, at the new ONLINE SANGHA hosted by the Vajrayana Pathways Institute Without Walls, which has a non-online origin back in Seattle during the 1990s, and which I started here on Care2 in May of this year, tumultuous 2007.

THE URL for you to consider is:

http://www.care2.com/c2c/group/Vajrayana_Pathways

All here in this group are invited to apply and to become part of that Sangha. There is much substantive teaching and good information, filtered, as it is, through myself, to be gleaned through your serious endeavors there. Welcome!

To make even more substantive progress on proper BUDDHIST MEDITATION METHODS, please consider applying for and joining my main teaching site on care2.com, with the "Kamalasila" information there, which will not be repeated or replicated in this general site. The same, really, goes for the fundamental PORTAL TEACHINGS about DZOGCHEN, the highest form of Buddhist Meditation - Ati Yoga - "The Great Perfection" as it is. If you are new, entirely new to meditation (with all of the vastness now presented out there in the "Metaphysical Marketplace" of our cherished Internet, please  have a peek at "The King of Yogas" thread on this site [and here you are, NOW!]. Meditate upon what you find here, and know that HERE is both a starting and ending place for a proper form of Buddhist meditation -- without the benefit of an "instructor" or other guide. Please, if you have questions about how to get started with meditation and are serious about it, I will do what I can to help and I advise you to PM (in care2 is fine for now) and we can begin a dialog, one-on-one, about it. ONLINE, with all of its benefits as well as mostly restrictions, there are limitations to what can be effectively done ... for you. Take the initiative and make a more personal contact. I am here, but cannot bi-locate to help you more directly and I am very sorry about that. As it is!  Kindest regards, Sapan R.

 [ send green star]