Homeless people do not choose to live that way, they have many difficult alternatives to choose from, not necessarily the choice to living homefully. 

 A person who does not work full time can be far more responsible than a person who does.  Do you think your work ethic defines everyone?

Mike, where do you get your information from???

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Quite frankly, if a person in America works a full time job and doesnt have insurance it is because they are irresponsible. Catastrohic Insurance with an HSA is very afordable. But if someone would rather have cable tv and a cell phone thats their own fault.

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"I am not surprised you do not know what that means. It is a per capita spending, not a total spending. It means that for each $ spent on health care in the USA, they get less for it than for each $ spent in France and many other countries" 
 
No it doesnt. Per capita is basically saying per person.

"Healthcare expenditures per capita USA $3,734"

Meaning healthcare in the US is $3,734 per person. Which means it is more expensive than some other countries. And as I said, it is more expensive because it is better healthcare.

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Why are the medications in Canada less expensive? Because WE subsidise them.

Sarah, its funny how you say my comment on your spelling is just an attempt to change the subject, yet  your comment on my being "week" at history isnt your attempt to do the same thing. Frankly I do not care about spelling or anything else. Just thought that if YOU are going to comment on me being "week" at something, you should atleast spell "weak" right. Thats all..

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"Im (sic) not sure what those numbers were supposed to prove. American (sic) spend more on healthcare than other countries? "

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I am not surprised you do not know what that means. It is a per capita spending, not a total spending. It means that for each $ spent on health care in the USA, they get less for it than for each $ spent in France and many other countries. That is because the USA system is not as efficient and effective as in other countries.

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The USA has operating room capacity which it does not use to accommodate some of its own people in need since the costs are quite high and HMOs put people on a waiting list the same as in Canada, based on actual need as opposed to want. Thus, the facilities are available to those who can afford it in either country. In cases of emergency, when there may not be the capacity in an out-of-province hospital, patients may be sent to the bordering state or to a highly specialized hospital and the costs are taken care of by the medical insurance.

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Of course I am sure you have heard all about the less expensive medications we have in Canada and how busloads of seniors from the USA arrive here to load up since they do not have the funds to pay for them.

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Exactly what do you know about Mike? It is difficult to have a discussion with someone who does not understand some of the basics of what is being discussed. Very time consuming with little result.

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"No. Thats is a good indicator that we live in a great country because that does not happen here. it happens in places that are run by dictactors and such because thats how they maintain their power."

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The above is from your post, Mike. I have highlighted the errors in case you cannot see your own. Let us get back to the point rather than dealing with those typing mistakes we all make on the internet, including you. Yours is simply a tactic to run off on a tanget rather than sticking to the point and arguing those which are salient. That's a method typically resorted to by those who have no good foundation from which to argue.

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Im not sure what those numbers were supposed to prove. American spend more on healthcare than other countries? Of course, our system is worth more.

45 million people are uninsured. Not bad for a country of over 300 million.

Universal healthcare stinks. Thats why people in Canada that have money come to the US for surgery ETC...

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"SInce you seem to be week in histroy"

lol... And you seem to be WEAK in spelling.

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I didnt say homeless, I said poor. And I can post the link to the study if you want. But most homeless people choose to livethat way.

By the way, I used to be homeless.

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Most poor people in this country live better than the middle class in other countries. Most own atleast one car, many own two. Most have cable TV, cell phones, internet, air conditioning. Boy what a tough place to live huh?Healthcare expenditures per capita USA $3,734; France $2,125; Cuba $109; Israel $1,402. Health System Performance ranking Overall performance:USA #37; France #1; Cuba #39; Israel #282. On level of health: USA #72; France #4; Cuba #36; Israel #40 http://www.who.int/whr2001/2001/archives/2000/en/statistics.htm Infant mortality rate (2004) Israel 7.21; USA 6.63; Cuba 6.45;  France 4.31. Medically Uninsured People USA: 45 million; France, Cuba, Israel:  Universal healthcare

The money to buy all that "stuff" is all borrowed and the world is about to call the loan.

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No. Thats is a good indicator that we live in a great country because that does not happen here. it happens in places that are run by dictactors and such because thats how they maintain their power. Starvation has very little to do with population and very much to do with Government."
your profile says you're living in the us, aren't you? Because if you are & referring to this country, your statement sounds like a nice dream... but quite far from reality.

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"A good indicator that we are overpopulated is that millions of otherwise healthy children and adults starve each year"

No. Thats is a good indicator that we live in a great country because that does not happen here. it happens in places that are run by dictactors and such because thats how they maintain their power. Starvation has very little to do with population and very much to do with Government.

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"I forgot to say that until the earth is not overpopulated with people and we have a better solution for family planning"

You mean a better solution than abortion? We do have one, its called dont have sex before mariage and dont have sex with multiple partners and use protection if you do have sex and dont want children. Wow that was hard. I know, personal responsibility is a foreign concept to most people today.

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Tanya. I dont need to keep my penis and sperm anywhere. You see I waited until mariage to have sex and have children. As did my wife. You see We practiced a little thing called Responsibility. You should try it sometime. By the way it takes two to make a baby and therefore it should be more than just a womans decision. After all if the man didnt want it and the woman did she would want half his money. But the bottom line is dont have sex- dont get pregnant. Very simle.

By the way the earth is no where near overpopulated with people. More than 80% of this earth is wilderness. Still plenty of room.

If you cant stay off my dinner plate why should I stay out of your uterus?

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" And Clinton is as much a capitalist as Bush---or almost as much. "

Thats because unlike ALL other forms of Government, Capitalism WORKS..

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I just want to add that I do not think it is stupid to throw blood or red paint onto fur coats as an act of civil disobedience.  It's very much nicer than what they do to the animals who they steal the fur from.  I am a supporter of activism even when it is dramatic or extreme, because it is the issue at hand that cries for the focus.

  Also, re: abortion, death penalty, war mechanisms, big business as usual, eating meat, supporting factory farming, supporting a massive "meat" industry, the cruelty of humans towards animals and other humans, the callous and desensitized regard for all life and for other people, I trust that they all suck very much.  BTW, It is specieist to prefer the life of a human, understandable (egocentric, selfish, anthrocentric, humans have always been these) but not necessarily fair.  I know, life isn't fair.  And the concept of total justice, like everyone's different concept of reality, is always in question, always relative, always gone awry with each individual’s unique perspective.  All we can do is gather and decide what we think is best.  Mike, you seem to be very defensive.  You want to be left alone to do whatever you want to without having to think about how it might be hurting someone else.  And you think we might be grateful that if we maintain our silence in front of you that you will not urinate in our (split-pea yummy) soup?  I guess I'm just happy that you know we are here and we are NOT going away.

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I am guilty that I still eat meat and am against the death penalty, I agree with you.

On the other hand, an abortion before three months is not killing, no matter what spin right-wing religious kooks might put on it. 

As for halliburton, they are into terror by supporting it.  If the US and friends weren't war-mongers, there would be no need for Halliburton.  Halliburton exists out of greed.  And Clinton is as much a capitalist as Bush---or almost as much.

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You know what throws me off? people that are for abortion but im a murderer for eatng meat. People that are for abortion but against the death penalty for murderers, rapists, and child molestors.

My comments about loving halliburton are tongue in cheek. But I support business. I happen to believe halliburton is a good company. Let me just tell a few facts although I know this group isnt really about this.

Halliburton received MORE no-bid comtracts from the clinton administration than the Bush administration. Thats not a knock on Clinton, there is a reason Halliburton gets these contracts. When it comes to rebuilding in a war zone there are only 3 companies in the WORLD that do it. Halliburton is the ONLY one in America that do it. SInce I know you are all against outsourcing you should be in favor of Halliburton geting thses contracts. Halliburton is much more than just some oil company.. Did you know the  last check Cheney got from Halliburton was for $800,000 and he gave every penny to charity? There is alot of things people think anout Halliburton that simply arent true.. But I have a I "love" Halliburton Avatar and I also have the T-shirt.. I wear it cause it really bugs the libs I run into throughout the day. Whenever I can get them to scream obscenities at me and tell me how Im mean and intollerant the sun shines brighter and my day gets better

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I find it hypocritical to be against abortion and yet to want to eat steaks.

Again, i opoened up this group to get all this stuff out.  Thanks for being civil guys. 

Mike, I truly believe you are a good person at heart.  it throws me off though when I see the contradictions of no abortion vs support for halliburton, for example.

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You know who had a horrible child hood?  Abraham Lincoln, Beethoven, countless others who have done great things.. A baby is a baby.  Its life upon conception.

But back to the meat thing.. As I said, eat veggies if you want I dont care. But I will continue to eat meat whether you veggie types like it or not.. You guys are so bitter. You through blood on peoples fur coats. You protest soccer moms for wearing leather. Funny I never see any of you at sturgis bike rally.. Dont through blood on my fur and I wont piss on your salad.

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I guess it all depends on what you mean by flesh. Technically it is beneath the skin.. But I think when most people use the word flesh they are refering to skin . as with in my example.. Flesh wound.

At any rate ,I like it.. And if you dont that is fine with me. I have no problem with you making the CHOICE to not eat meat.. I actually have two friends that are vegetarians. Im not here to convince you that you should eat meat.. Its you and other vegetarians that try to ram YOUR choice down our throats..

Completely off topic but I do find it interesting that most vegetarians are pro choice.. SO to them I guess eating animals is murder. But killing babies is choice..

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I know. You prefer the smell of stewed peas.

It seems you are the one who is confused about Flesh and Skin.. A Flesh wound is what?  A wound that only penetrates the skin.. your Flesh is your skin.. Not the meat that lies beneath..

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 A steak is not flesh. It is the meat that is below the flesh.. And its funny that you all will not admit it smells good when you know it does.

PS. The flesh is my favorie part though. Skinless chicken isnt worth eating if you ask me. I love the skin. And I love the fat on a big steak..

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but omnivores can live a healthy life without eating it

They cannot lead a healthy and natural life without it. This is the danger of promoting vegetarianism as natural. People switch to vegetariansism without realising that you have to be a bit more careful with the diet. A vague goal of 'balance' is no longer sufficient.

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Because i would like to remind you they are NOT food. Their flesh is not something to eat.

Says who? The Japanese eat it. Thus it is food by definition. And Mike has a good point. Those big tuna that end up in sushi are also magnificent creatures. Seen National Geographic Magazine lately? Time to focus on the real issues. Save the tuna!

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because if we applied your speach to the population in india or china, it would then be ok to kill some of the human people in there

No it wouldn't
Of course it wouldn't! This is my point. So there is obviously none for whales

Whales are not "cute and cuddly" as you have stated, FD, but they are awesome and magnificent, and there is no good reason whatsoever for killing them.

Yes there is - food.
Are they stealing YOUR food? Because i would like to remind you they are NOT food. Their flesh is not something to eat.

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because if we applied your speach to the population in india or china, it would then be ok to kill some of the human people in there

No it wouldn't

Whales are not "cute and cuddly" as you have stated, FD, but they are awesome and magnificent, and there is no good reason whatsoever for killing them.

Yes there is - food.

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Thanks for your insights.

I see where yiu are all coming from and the logic in your arguments.

I have to clear up one point.  I meant that nature is doing what it does best---existing.  Humans ruining nature is a completely different story.  I meant that the world was made with all these creatures with a certain purpose or equilibrium if you will.  It may sound crude, but I believe, to some extent, that we all do things to please our ego.  This means that we kill because we need to eat flesh.  It's as simple as that.  As they say in Greek: my life is your death.  It cannot be denied that I like to eat healthily.  But this diet includes some meat.

I promised Pelagus almost a year ago that i would turn less carnivorous, and indeed I have.  Pel, I still avoid meat and dairy on Saturdays.  And as far as caring and activism go, I would like to tell all of you who don't already know how inspired I am with Pelagus and what she does in her life---what she has made herself be.  She lives at a level where our everyday fears have no part in.  She has, in my opinion, obtained a new level of enlightenment that I can only hope to have.  I love her person and the zest that she has and the compassion that she shows for everyone.  Thank you Pel for brightening my day so many times.  Je t'aime bien.  Je te connait pas trop, mais je sait que tu va etre la leader de ta propre revolution. 

Tanya, I think you may be too harsh in your opinion as to why we eat meat.  You may be right, but harsh.

I'm out of words.  Thank you both.

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Even though humans are part of nature, nothing more and nothing less, we have the opportunity to be benevolent or malevolent. I do not think any of us knows if what we think is best or worst is accurate. I think that we are just a tiny part of nature, after all, and that our existence is a gift not to be taken for granted by egocentric and anthrocentric sentiment.  I think humans have been a corrupting force on Earth, not necessarily due to malevolent intentions, but just through failing at our power to be in communion with nature.  To be kind when we have the choice to be.   If you want to dismiss the evidence that we could be taking better care of our environment, whether on a small or larger scale, than I think you must want to do what is convenient rather than what would be kinder.  The funny thing is, that once one is not so addicted to instant gratification and bad habits, it becomes more convenient to be kinder and thoughtful and to seek truth and to accept the small part we play in it all, without being arrogant and reckless.  We have the ability to make choices about what we do, informed choices.  I do not know the universe’s plan or the plan of a microscopic particle. To bring it closer, I do not know the plan of nature on earth or any of her smallest organisms.  When I am given the choice to be blatantly kind or cruel, I hope that I will chose to be kind, although it is certain that I will make the other choice sometimes, either out of my own defects or perhaps because in the greater spectrum of things it was my turn to be ignorant or cruel for that moment.  I just work towards doing the best I can, and thinking things through, and learning what I can.  You have a choice, and if you chose not to choose than you have made your choice to be ignorant and ignorance can be blissful, you may find that a lot easier.  Like I said, once you have made a more informed choice, it becomes easier to stick to the decisions and convictions and integrity that you have chosen.  The truths that you hope you have found.  People treat each other badly, we can be selfish and thoughtless and blatantly cruel to one another.  I do not believe that when a tiger kills something to eat, that the tiger consciously chose to be harmful.  When a human does it, she has either justified it to herself in a thoughtful way (i.e. small groups of indigenous people rather than masses of overcrowded modern society), or she has chosen to ignore the ramifications, the intrinsic quality of what she is doing.  You decide for yourself, none else will or can.   If you have the audacity to think that you can have any affect on the way people live together, treat each other, or make conscientious decisions, than you are able to see why one can think that there is an ethical choice to make.   Overall, it is not our choice to control what the other animals do, any more than it is our choice to chose what other human beings must do, only what we do to them, and only hopeful that it is the kindest and most truthful thing to do.  If we attempt to influence others to do the same, we are doing so because we have made an informed choice and decided that it is kinder and better to do it that way.  Ultimately, kindness becomes other than purely rational.  Like beauty.  Like love.  There is no hypocrisy in deciding not to take advantage of another in order to get the meal we have become accustomed to.  It transcends reason on that level.  I do not tell you what to do, I only share the conclusions I’ve come to. Yes, show me or teach me your perspective if you think it is best. Asking why we are so hypocritical to think it is ok if other animals do whatever they do is just a stupid pie in the face argument over what is considered hypocrisy.  Just use your reason with your heart, instead of with cheap rhetoric.  I believe that we are able to influence each other as well as animals and our environment.  One way of doing this is to be kind.  Amazingly, you might find that your surroundings, even the other creatures and the environment, become kinder in return.     

P.s.  Is it hypocritical that you think you know what is better than what a capitalist does?  Is your life so purely communistic?  What do you think a Bourgeoisie Aristocrat would say if you asked one to consider the consequences of the choices they make?  It doesn’t really come down to any of us knowing anyt  [ send green star]

isn't this a question of keeping equilibrium with nature?  Is  nature failing in killing enough fish?  No.  There is no failure in nature.  But there is a failure in understanding that animals of all sorts have all sorts of needs.

What I fail to understand, and feel free to enlighten me, is the hypocrisy of only criticising humans and not other animals for killing.  Tell the rest of the carnivores/omnivores to stop killing.  See if they's listen to you

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http://ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1168478179

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Again, stop anonymous posting just because you are too much of a weenie to post with your real identity.

Anon. posting could be useful for other reasons, but not for persoanl attacks.

You are a moron.

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Some people simply have unrealistic views of reality. For them there are unmarked mass graves in New Mexico of over 4,000 Indians who were killed in the early days of movies when there were no special effects.

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are you saying that she implied no killing is going on in the middle east?  or are you simply reminding us that there are people killing other people?   I do think that what is happening in the middle east is different than killing people for entertainment.  But maybe not.

  In any case, I haven't ever heard that movie makers actually killed the native americans, although I know that it sometimes happens to animals in cinema making.  Do you remember where you came upon that piece of information?

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no hunting for game

why not?

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Hunting & Shooting

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Hunting and fishing is of 2 sorts---a means of survival and a sport.  I think that there should be responsible practices concerning hunting and fishing, but never to the detrimant or danger of any human life.

As well, there should be limited fishing and no hunting for game.  This is my opinion, at least. 

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