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Groups > AMERICA: Freedom To Fascism > Discussions > Topic: Is it too late?
Topic: Is it too late?

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Sherrie B.	Is it too late? July 05, 2006 8:36 PM Are we spitting into the wind to try and reverse things? I`m sure there were many who tried to discourage revolutionaries during the American Revolutionary War. THEY WON! [ send green star]
Yvonne W.	July 05, 2006 9:20 PM It will be an uphill battle now. But we have to have Hope! I still believe we can restore Civil Liberties & get America back to basics! [ send green star]
Eva C.	I agree, Yvonne, As Long as We "Expose" it For What It Really Is and WAS July 06, 2006 3:09 AM There's a goldmine of information on fascism and the fear of this totalitarian practice around the world, particularly by those who would advocate that the protection of business/property supercedes the rights and liberties of the people. Solidarity, Eva [ send green star]
Steve B.	Too late for what? July 07, 2006 7:12 AM When Abraham Lincoln was elected (with a plurality) in 1860, it was already too late. It's still too late. Things are likely to get worse before they get better. The United States (along with the rest of the world) is likely to move deeper into totalitarianism, and almost everyone live less free lives than they should, and many people die valiantly and violently, before the totalitarian institutions are temporarily scuttled. It's not too late to try to resist any more than it is too late to try to breathe. [ send green star]
Sherrie B.	July 07, 2006 4:30 PM Part of me says it is too late. The other part of me says we have to try, otherwise we are going along with the program. Like that saying "If you`re not part of the solution, you`re part of the problem". Everyone of us must do our part. Even if it is only to make it harder for them to enslave us. [ send green star]
Edwin T.	July 07, 2006 7:15 PM I agree, we have to try. As to whether it is too late, maybe that depends on our perspective. Have things gotten out of hand- yes. Have they gotten out of our control- yes. Is it irreversable that Fascism has taken over- viewed from a historical perspective, everything is ultimately reversable, but the question I think we are all asking is can we turn this thing around in the next few years. That is a hard one to get a handle on, and probably can't be answered at this point in time because there will be certainly be unforseen factors. At this point, my best guess is its even money. There are a lot of folks who think the way we do and that gives me hope. I think there are a lot of folks that are just oblivious. While they can be more easily manipulated by the fourth reich, they are not committed to action. What worries me most is the control over the media and the polls. [ send green star]
Mtnfox F.	July 08, 2006 1:18 AM First take back our schools, and stop them to be use as social behavior modifiers. Teach real subject, English( both reading and writing), mathmatic adding and subtraction, time tables and long division. Get rid of all the different versions of the new math. History. Give our children a firm foundation. This way when they get to secondary schools, they should have an idea were the want to go. College, vocation schools, or general education, so that the can leave home and can read a newspaper, find a job, and count change, and not have a computer tell them how much they should get back. On the Corporation side. More regulation, tariffs, to protect our jobs. Who ever told the corporation that eliminating job here in the States to build plants in third world countries because of lower cost and higher profits, forgot to them, with all the workers out of work, who going to buy those new expencive cars. I can see going over seas paying $5.00 for a pair of shoes and selling for $10.00. But to sell them as if they were built here for $30.00 to $ 60.00 is wrong, That why we need tariffs. Go back to the Consitution get control of our money. Go back on the silver standard, and stop the Federal Reserve in printing paper money in their name. Also demand to see the people gold that FDR sold from the citizens of the United States. I know there is gold in Fort Knox but who owns it. Third clean up the legal system. Starting with the Supreme Judges. They can make all the rulings they want but they have no power to enforce them with support of the Legislators. [ send green star]
Jessica C.	July 08, 2006 4:08 PM The important thing is to never give up no matter how hopeless the situation looks. If you don't do it for yourselves, do it for future generations. Corporate power and the state of the media are two (often intertwined) issues that need immediate attention. I agree with Mtnfox that we need to initiate and enforce tariffs and regulations. Eventually, we will also have to address (and eliminate) the notion of corporate personhood. In Unequal Protection, Thom Hartmann explains that corporate personhood became a legal given after a court reporter included it in the headnotes of the Santa Clara County v Southern Pacific Railroad case. In other words, corporate personhood IS NOT a Supreme Court precedent. The problem is that corporatist attorneys allowed it to take on the status of established fact, and thus corporate personhood has become ingrained in our society. The task we and our descendants will have is undoing this "given," and it's going to be far from a cake walk with the likes of Roberts and Alito on SCOTUS. The most basic way to start is by lobbying your city council to issue a non-binding resolution that rejects corporate personhood. It may not seem like much, and total undoing of corporate personhood will probably not take place in our lifetimes, but at least we can get the ball rolling. Media reform is important because corporate ownership and the absence of the Fairness Doctrine, as we all know, is preventing the truth from reaching a wide audience. The battle over the media is being waged right now. In October, the FCC is going to decide whether to further relax media ownership rules (such as whether to allow a corporation to own a local television station and newspaper simultaneously). Free Press has an action alert that allows you to voice your concern to the FCC. Also, if you haven't already made your voice heard to save net neutrality, please do so. Congress has already cast two votes against us. We can't let them get away with it again. Another thing you should consider is attending the National Conference for Media Reform in Memphis this January. I learned a great deal at last year's conference in St. Louis (such as the power that We the People have to revoke a station's broadcasting license). If you are a single-issue person, let media be the issue. Election and campaign reform are equally important issues that need attention. Hopefeully, everyone is aware of the threats Diebold, ES&S, and Sequoia voting machines pose to democracy. (Handy resources for the beginner include Black Box Voting and Verified Voting.) The good news is that, after about four years of problems, the mainstream media is finally starting to cover the dangers of electronic voting. The bad news is that all the states do not yet have legislation mandating at least a paper trail. In addition to voting machines, we need to enforce improvements in the choice of candidates. At the moment, weare stuck with the choice of one of two parties that are controlled by corporations. In order to allow third parties to become viable choices, instant run-off voting needs to happen at the national level. It has already proven successful in communities in Vermont and California. In order to allow people from any economic background to campaign and win elections and to give constituents (rather than the Abramoffs of the world) more control over their elected officials, public campaign financing needs to become a national reality. So, in a nutshell, while the mess in this country is complex and overwhelming, I do not believe it is too late. As I said before, we may not see the complete vision come to fruition in our lifetimes, but we can make those crucial first steps. [ send green star]
John F.	July 08, 2006 4:21 PM Thanks for inviting me! It is never too late! However, it is getting later, and the battles are getting tougher. We cannot give up, or "THEY" win! I have kids and grandkids, and nephews and nieces, and they deserve a chance to live with the same freedoms we were taught we had and should protect. Oh, and the Statue of Liberty still stands in New York harbor, beckoning to all who seek a better way of life! In Catch-22, Joseph Heller said that they can do anything we can't stop them from doing. He was right, but I have a simple corollary: We can do anything they can't stop us from doing. At the risk of sounding as if I only speak in quotes and generalities, I offer this: For every good person who wears down, we must have another ready and willing to step into the fray! That means work on everyone's part, and it means that we'll have some words fall on deaf ears. We also must be careful that we do not become, or appear to become, extremists ourselves. We have a middle-of-the-road message, and we need to draw from middle-of-the-road Americans. If not, we will lose -- and THEY will win. Although I am, and have been for years, an independent, I think we must work with the Democrats to balance our country. If they get out of hand, we need to seek alternatives, but for now, it is our best shot. In the 2006 elections -- this year -- we need to get out the vote in a way this country hasn't seen in decades -- and we need to ensure EVERY vote has a paper trail, and is counted! Back in November of 2005, the Democrats asked for input. What questions would you ask the current administration? I responded with these: Why did we attack Iraq when Osama bin Laden was clearly in some other country? Where is Osama bin Laden now, some 50 months after his 9/11/01 attacks on the United States of America? What connection is there between the bin Laden family and the Bush family? Why were members of the bin Laden family helped to leave the United States right after 9/11/01? How much has been paid to Haliburton and other companies with ties to Bush administration officials, and for what services, through sole source contracts issued after 9/11/01 and the attack on Iraq? When will Osama bin Laden be brought to justice for his attacks upon US targets, which killed at least 2800 innocent people? When will the US have an exit strategy in place to remove us from Iraq where Bush administration actions have responsible for the loss of over 2000 (now 2500+) American personnel and tens of thousands of Iraqis? What illegal actions were taken on behalf of, or by, members of the Bush administration, which resulted in Bush/Cheney winning the 2000 and/or 2004 Presidential elections? When will Mr. Bush, Mr. Cheney and Mr. Rumsfeld resign from their positions, publicly accepting and proclaiming their guilt for all high crimes and misdemeanors which they have committed or approved of since taking office in 2001? It is my set of questions. I'm sure each of you have more! Let's ask them all, and keep track of the answers, so we can tell others the truth as we move toward November 2006. I will not forget 9/11/01. I will not forget "Mission Accomplished!" and so many other meaningless photo-ops. I will not forget thousands of dead, wounded and maimed American servicemen and servicewomen, Iraqis and other "coalition" personnel. And I will do my damndest to make certain nobody else forgets, because I am a patriotic American. [ send green star]
Dave C.	July 08, 2006 4:44 PM [ send green star]
Laurie L.	Jessica C. July 08, 2006 5:25 PM *"The important thing is to never give up no matter how hopeless the situation looks. If you don't do it for yourselves, do it for future generations."* No matter the outcome that seems to be looming ever closer, we need to keep trying, trying, trying. Then future generations won't say "why didn't they" but "wow, they did this for us". [ send green star]
Sherrie B.	A very good quote July 08, 2006 7:04 PM from Jessica! [ send green star]
Dave C.	July 08, 2006 7:18 PM WAKE UP! Bush Watch The Truth About George W. Bush G. W. Bush: Wanted for War Crimes Bush Family War Crimes whiterosesociety.org Casualties in Iraq - 2003 The Lies. The Truth. The Proof. Kennedy: The Bush Connection Kennedy-Nixon-Bush Connection WhiteHouseforSale.org The Daily Mislead NRDC's Review of the Bush Administration Energy Task Force Records The Wage Slave Journal: G. W. Bush Scorecard of Evil W's "Resume" INFORMATION CLEARING HOUSE. NEWS, COMMENTARY & INSIGHT American Politics Journal -- The Big Boycott List Timeline of Events Surrounding the U.S. Invasion of Iraq Crimes of War Project )O(The Goddess )O( http://the-goddess.org/blog/2006/06/orwell-rolls-in-his-grave.html [ send green star]
Super B.	I sincerely hope not July 14, 2006 6:09 PM but I will go screaming all the way...... [ send green star]
WildOne F.	Just had to add July 15, 2006 8:04 AM Have you ever heard Budgies scream? They make one Hell of a racket! So I`m glad to hear Super Budgie will be in there screaming about loss of our freedoms. I`ll be right there with you Super B. Believe it. [ send green star]
Rick S.	July 15, 2006 8:37 AM Is it too late? I don't think so, in fact .... the time just might be right. [ send green star]
Super B.	Good point Rick July 15, 2006 8:47 AM The time may just be right. [ send green star]
AJ R.	It might be an important point, July 15, 2006 10:52 AM though, to stop for a sec to determine whether these masses are going to be just generally angry, or whether the anger will be focused on the proper parties. I'm not sure a new American Revolution is just going to come together on the day the banks and stores are closed, and there is no power or running water. It may pay to try to build up those who are suffering now, so that when they see our faces, they'll remember us as the ones who want things to be truly better for all. Just my .02. I'm already seeing lots of need, and a burgeoning working poor population. I have concern for the immediate aftermath of a crash that awakens the populace. Charitable labor is also a great panacea for civic burnout, for me. Again, just my .02--not sayin' anything to or about anyone else! I'm reading far more here than I'm writing, for reasons of my own education and motivation. I just thought I ought to toss this into the fray. [ send green star]
Ratty R.	Never July 16, 2006 7:26 AM It's never too late. And even if it was, I'm too stubborn to give up. [ send green star]
John F.	Not If "They" Will Win! July 25, 2006 7:01 AM "We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. When the loyal opposition dies, I think the soul of America dies with it." ~Edward R. Murrow American Newsman and Commentator [ send green star]
Michael M.	July 25, 2006 12:47 PM The longest journey starts with the first step. That first step has been taken by several people and we have to back them and support them. There have been two lawsuits filed against Bush and his cronies that will bring the light out and shine for the whole world to see. Remember what John Paul Jones replied when he was asked to strike his flag and surrender his ship, "I have not yet begun to fight!" That is what we have to do now, show the world and the politicains that we common citizens of the U.S. have not surrendered and we have not given up our freedoms and rights. Michael [ send green star]
The Real Donna F.	Michael July 25, 2006 1:54 PM I like that quote and had forgotten all about it. I HAVE NOT YET BEGUN TO FIGHT! [ send green star]
Jennifer M.	Jefferson´s Manual- Citizens to Impeach Bush and Co. August 22, 2006 6:56 AM Impeach for Peace, a Minnesota-based impeachment group, has researched a method for impeaching the president using a little known and rarely used part of the Rules of the House of Representatives ("Jefferson's Manual"). This document actually empowers individual citizens to initiate the impeachment process themselves. http://impeachforpeace.org/ImpeachNow.html [ send green star]
anonymous	DIY Impeachment... August 22, 2006 7:28 AM Now you're talking! Hey, everyone - read this one (the above link, that is...) [report anonymous abuse]
Anthony G.	tick tock August 22, 2006 6:12 PM Be vigilant and ever watchful. Although I believe that is scripture, one of founding fathers said this regarding a citizens duty pertaining to our government. The next two elections should tell us what time it is. [ send green star]
The Real Donna F.	Anthony August 22, 2006 9:11 PM The last Selection told us what time it is. [ send green star]
anonymous	Never too late! September 13, 2006 11:39 AM I see thinking that its too late is giving up. I will never give up doing everything I can to get the government back to the people. It seems to me that more and more people are seeing the reality of the corruption in our government. What to do? What to do? Certainly there is something we can do. I would really like to see a leader for this cause like a well-known and respected senator to have the conviction and courage to speak out about the crimes of this government and not be shy about the TRUTH. I've heard some democratic senators live on c-span refer to crimes of Bush and actually use the word 'impeachment' but not one willing to take real action. [report anonymous abuse]
Larry W.	iis it too late? no! September 13, 2006 12:36 PM As Mick McGahey put it when someone once asked him why he continued to fight on even after apparant defeat - "The working class goes from defeat to defeat to defeat to victory." The only battle we'll really win will be the last one. [ send green star]
Harmony K.	I hope it isn't too late! September 14, 2006 1:29 AM You know how and why Johnny Cash always wore black, right? Well, with me, it's come to this point- as an American ex-pat living in Norway since 1999, I made the decision that I would only come back to a FREE America- An America with its Constitution fully restored with its Bill of Rights fully restored The Patriot Act and Homeland Spy Security absolutely eradicated FOREVER no U.S. "internment camps" for civilians or otherwise NO MORE seizing anyone the gov disagrees with and not giving them recourse to legal rights NO MORE TORTURE no more "no fly" lists such that innocent people can not have their names removed An America dedicated to DEMOCRACY, not CORPOCRACY An America where there really are tamper-free Elections- not a horrific joke where one party controls and owns the infinitely hackable voting machines.. I now have three grand-children in America whom I have never met- I would like to meet them, hug them, and hold them on my lap! My whole family is back in the U.S.- I will not see them living in serfdom and slavery at the behest of the GDdamn** Neocons... I want the fires of Freedom and Liberty blazing forth so strongly that they can never be put out. I want people to remember the Declaration of Independence- how our fore-fathers WARNED us that if it ever came to a time when our own government was oppressing us, we had the right and the duty to overthrow it!!! I want to come back to a different President- one who has honestly been elected one who actually will fulfill his Oath of Office- and preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights I want a President who's not out to conquer the rest of the world- but a President who is willing to protect and nurture the citizens of his or her own country.. I want a President who is answerable to the citizens, not Corporations I want a President who is genuinely interested in seeing an end to homelessness and poverty I want a President who believes in a FREE AMERICA I want a President who understands that dissent is a sign of a healthy democracy I want to come back to a FREE AMERICA and see my family, friends, and grand-children. Every morning I wake up wanting this, and every night I go to sleep wanting this. My days are dedicated to being an advocate for the homeless- and to keeping up my webpage on Civil Liberties. I have so many copies and backups of this webpage- and copies of every single article on civil liberties, etc that goes on this page... I have hard copies, and other copies stored elsewhere... I will NOT be silenced in my dissent with the Dictator who is now in office illegally- I will NOT be stopped in my quest for a free America.. and let me finish with this quote from Mark A. Goldman: "Do you think it's possible that if you were to wake up one morning and come to the realization that your freedom is hanging by a thread, that you wouldn't do anything more than get dressed and go to work, as if it were the same as any other day? Is it possible that our freedom and our country could be lost inch by inch without one defining moment to mark the transformation from freedom to oppression, and is it possible that we could miss hearing the call when it comes, or if we do hear it, simply be too tired or not have the time, the strength, the energy, the know-how, or the courage to stand up for justice anyway?" "...and if you haven't the courage to tell the truth, or the consciousness to honor the truth, or the love to love the truth, then one day you will not have the truth to tell, and soon thereafter you will not live in a place that will acknowledge the truth when it is told, and not long after that the truth will not be told, for it will no longer be allowed. You cannot hope to be a traitor to life, and then expect to live in a free and just society." -Mark A.Goldman,The Critical Choice http://www.gpln.com/frontpage.htm Harmony's Home Page: Civil Liberties Links http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/7076/civilliberty.html Harmony's Home Page- Quotes on Freedom and Liberty http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/7076/clquotes.html [ send green star]
Larry W.	Is it too late? The answer's still NO! September 14, 2006 1:19 PM Just a thought for anyone who is pissed off at the way things have been shifting to the right for the last 20-30 years. They try to tell us that Socialism is dead and point to disintegration of the USSR as being the proof. Because he opposed the Stalinist system Victor Serge was imprisoned twice before he was exiled although he remained a lifelong revolutionary and socialist. He wrote the following words in 1947 and it is taken from an article that was one of the last things he had published before his death; "A feeble logic, whose finger beckons to the dark spectacle of the Stalinist Soviet Union, affirms the bankruptcy of Bolshevism, followed by that of Marxism, followed by that of Socialism....Have you forgotten the other bankruptcies? What was Christianity doing in the various catastrophes of society? What became of Liberalism? What has Conservatism produced, either in its enlightened or its reactionary form? Did it not spawn Mussolini, Hitler, Salazar, and Franco? If we are indeed honestly to weigh out the bankruptcies of ideology, we shall have a long task ahead of us......And nothing is finished yet" It just seems like something that is worth remembering , nothing is finished!..... the bastards haven't won yet! [ send green star]
Catherine B.	is it too late to reverse this out of control tide? September 15, 2006 1:33 PM that would depend upon how willing the american people are into actually paying f*ing attention to what is going on and working to make sure that the politicians are kept honest. there are too many lazy americans who just don't want a blurry vision out of their rose colored lenses. IF we can manage to take those stupid lenses off, then we have a chance to turn the tide. if we are unable to take those stupid lenses off... [ send green star]
Larry W.	No ; it still isn't too late September 15, 2006 3:35 PM Ahh Catherine you have hit the main point of it all; people are lazy, selfish and greedy! but capitalism has made them that way. There are the ones who think they are doing ok with things the way they at present and couldn’t care less about anyone else. On the other hand there are others who are so ground down trying to survive in an obscene system they don’t get the space to think about, or become involved in trying to change what is happening around them. Occasionally a major tragedy occurs, like a son or daughter being senselessly killed in a war that shouldn’t even be fought. Something like this can influence people into questioning what it’s all about but if it’s someone else’s son or daughter mostly they are just thankful it’s not their own. You seem angry Catherine; I’m angry as well but anger can be a powerful weapon if it’s used constructively. People can be frustrating but these are the people we have to work alongside and whether we like it or not they are the only people we have, so criticising them doesn’t get us very far towards doing anything constructive. It’s not too late but there is never going to be a quick fix; the things we want can be achieved, they will be achieved at some point; we might not even be around to see them but we need to keep trying to reverse the tide. [ send green star]
Catherine B.	i think frustration is an understatment... September 19, 2006 1:00 PM i am finding, with every passing, my tolerance is getting lower and lower, which is definitely not a good thing. breathe deeply... [ send green star]
anonymous	Let Us Demand Impeachment Now January 13, 2007 3:13 PM I agree with Howard Zinn. Impeach Bush Now ! We lose everything if we delay. [report anonymous abuse]