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Norway on Its Way To Being "Judenrein"

Society & Culture  (tags: Anti-Semitism, Islam, Muslims, abuse, corruption, crime, culture, dishonesty, ethics, family, freedoms, government, law, murder, police, politics, religion, rights, sadness, safety, society, violence, world )

- 2073 days ago -
Norway is expected to"Judenrein" ( free of Jews) in a few weeks. The last 819 Jews remaining in Norway currently are expected to leave soon because of the growing anti-Semitism in Norway.This will make Norway the first European nation that has no Jews

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MmAway M (506)
Sunday October 14, 2012, 3:17 pm
After reading the news at site I do believe we are back in time! Just shaking my head! Thanks Gillian!

Barbara W (342)
Sunday October 14, 2012, 3:27 pm
Zionism Promotes Anti-Semitism

Excerpt: "Theodor Herzl (1860-1904), the founder of modern Zionism, recognized that anti-Semitism would further his cause, the creation of a separate state for Jews. To solve the Jewish Question, he maintained “we must, above all, make it an international political issue.”

Herzl wrote that Zionism offered the world a welcome “final solution of the Jewish question.” In his “Diaries”, page 19, Herzl stated “Anti-Semites will become our surest friends, anti-Semitic countries our allies.”

Zionist reliance on Anti-Semitism to further their goals continues to this day. Studies of immigration records reflect increased immigration to the Zionist state during times of increased anti-Semitism. Without a continued inflow of Jewish immigrants to the state of "Israel", it is estimated that within a decade the Jewish population of the Zionist state will become the minority.

In order to maintain a Jewish majority in the state of "Israel", its leaders promote anti-Semitism throughout the world to "encourage" Jews to leave their homelands and seek "refuge".

Over the recent years there has been a dramatic rise in hate rhetoric and hate crimes targeted toward Jews:

In Turkey...horrifying suicide bombings at two synagogues left 25 people dead and hundreds more injured.
In Britain...Scotland Yard recently warned Britain's Jewish Community that it faced imminent terrorist attacks after police spotted and questioned a group of "tourists" taking covert videotape of the Jewish community buildings in London.

In France...a caution was issued after an arson attack gutted a suburban Paris Jewish school--the latest incident in a frightening wave of French anti-Semitism.

BBC - UK: "In recent weeks, a poll for the European Commission suggesting that EU citizens see Israel as the biggest threat to world peace caused outrage among Israelis."
Anti-Semitic acts are on the rise across Europe and beyond. From Antwerp and London to Berlin and Istanbul, Jews are living in fear."
It concerns me that Jews are living in fear. No group of people should "EVER" have to live in fear. But it's also painfully clear that the politics of Zionism and those who serve the politics of Zionism have caused many of the problems facing the Jewish people in the world today. It's been a long time coming as this article, written by a person of the Jewish persuation, shows..

Netanyahu pushing for war with Iran certainly has not helped things either. Given that the world economy has gone south. Given that the banks, especially the world bank, are to blame.

Stan B (123)
Sunday October 14, 2012, 3:29 pm
Jews first then Christians and finally the native Norwegians. This must be resisted. Why are the Norwegians so week?

Gillian M (218)
Sunday October 14, 2012, 3:33 pm
Barbara, a load of hogwash from a hogwash site. Zionism has nothing to do with anti-Semitism. You, yourself have listed a very few of the atrocities committed against Jews world wide on a regular basis and then blame the Jews for them.

I lay the attacks where they belong, against racists such as yourself, regardless of religious affiliation. Still, this is typical behaviour, attack the victims, it's their fault for existing yet I know that you are benefiting from Jewish research. I would also bet that, if your life depended on it, you would use Jewish/Israele discoveries, like Muslims do!!

Gillian M (218)
Sunday October 14, 2012, 3:35 pm
And yes, I note that you express concern AFTER attacking Zionists and thereby Jews.

Michael M (60)
Sunday October 14, 2012, 3:37 pm
In passing, I'll note that the Nordic settlers of Greenland once decided that the "skraelings" the short, stout eskimo cultures , were inferior, although they had long been skilled inhabitants of their world. Violence occurred between them, which some sources relate to this attitude.

Long before Vikings or Spanish or others came to North America, the different groups known as Indians occupied an incredible diversity of niches. They moved in small groups, often highly dispersed between others, and finding healthy areas included willingness to share with those who didn't speak the same language or know the same things.

Mus of the violence recorded in history really began after technologies of extreme mobility.
Israel also denies Palestinians the right to remain, but here I mention this, to inquire why intolerance is so widespread.

AS I mentioned above, some traditions are more openhanded, more tolerant than others. A look at history finds that European cultures are not by any means the strongest tolerators of others, even though Jews have lived there and to a great extent interbred for over a thousand years.
Perhaps when groups are mobile enough to interact intensely, and when they remain culturally distinct, this occurs (humans do something called "ingrouping/outgrouping", cognitively noticing differences and similarities.
The North American tribes were necessarily more separated by distance and terrain, and did not use their lives to establish huge, severe, monolithic governmental territories. With the ingroup being quite small, the advantages of some interactions with outgroups were perhaps more important than they are in mechanized, homogenous cultures.

Most deplore racism and intolerance; yet how can we retreat from such a road, and find relationship once again?

Gillian M (218)
Sunday October 14, 2012, 3:42 pm
Michael, that is Palestinian propaganda, Israel has never refused Palestinians the right to remain. In fact, over 1.5 million of them live in Israel. It is the Muslim controlled nations that do not want the Palestinians!

What Israel wants is what you have, the right to live in their own country in peace and without fear. The terrorists do not want Israel to exist.

Sue H (7)
Sunday October 14, 2012, 5:03 pm

Beth S (330)
Sunday October 14, 2012, 5:22 pm
Antisemitism causes anti-Zionism.


. (7)
Sunday October 14, 2012, 5:25 pm
So do people like Barbara W. and Wolf.

pam w (139)
Sunday October 14, 2012, 5:51 pm
Almost unbelievable....

Patricia Martin (19)
Sunday October 14, 2012, 6:08 pm
Arabs have said repeatedly that if Israel ceases to exist then the Arabs/Muslims will still and ALWAYS hate Jews. Why? Because their wacko prophet told them to, and whatever he said, since he was the "perfect man" to emulate for all time, they do.

Islamists are the biggest threat to world peace. Look at every country where they are, and they have instigated endless evils, hatreds, takeovers, violence, and unspeakable human rights violations.

Antisemites of course don't want to see this, it's much easier blaming Jews. Make no mistake, the Iranians have already said they will find and kill each and last Jew in the world, no matter where they are. Norway can be proud of helping. They themselves will be destroyed and Norway will turn into one more islamic hellhole as its well on its way to doing.

Helen Porter (39)
Sunday October 14, 2012, 9:46 pm
It's part of Bible prophesy.

I stand with Israel.

Stephen Brian (23)
Sunday October 14, 2012, 10:57 pm
Not remotely shocking:

Of a total population of about 5 million, about 325,000 are immigrants not of western origin, and the countries listed as primary places of origin among those are not exactly the ones friendliest to Jews. That only counts first-and-second generation immigrants, though. The wave of migration following WWII is two generations ago. I would not be surprised if over 10% of Norwegians actually identify more strongly with those countries' cultures rather than that of Norway.

Then there is the turd-lining on Scandinavian economic success: The dominant political movements appear vindicated in their entirety, with no distinction made between aspects which assisted in that success and those which are harmful. Scandinavia is apparently very liberal and progressive. The problem is that an excess of liberalism leads to just as much bigotry as does an excess of conservatism (if you don't see how, just let me know), but liberal movements, especially in places where they are seen as having earned such a free pass, are not vigilant against this fringe. For example, check out the ex-PM's response to accusations of institutional antisemitism in Norway:
Where were all of the civil rights-, human rights-, equal rights-, etc. rights-groups when he said that? Can anyone here imagine the response if an ex-U.S. president had "defended" racism against African Americans by saying "That's just an attempt to deflect attention from the real problem, that African countries are violent and barbaric." How about the response to the "Thou Shall Murder" cartoon? No controversy over incitement there.

Enough ranting, though. The trouble is when putting those two together, strong preexisting hatred by a substantial portion of the population and a total lack of contrary response from the majority, we are going to see the sort of bigotry that drives out an entire population.

Tommy S (11)
Sunday October 14, 2012, 11:20 pm
@ Barbara W
You need help --

Tommy S (11)
Monday October 15, 2012, 12:07 am
March 16, 2010

Norwegian Broadcasting (NRK) has aired a series of reports in recent days, exposing what officials are calling a “shocking” level of anti-semitism in some Norwegian schools. Much of it is COMING FROM MUSLIM STUDENTS WHO GO UNCHALLENGED (emphasis mine)

June 17, 2011

Norway’s minister for education, Kristin Halvorsen, has reacted to recent figures about increasing anti-Semitism in schools by introducing courses for teachers that will instruct them in how to fight "HATRED OF JEWS AMONG STAFF AND PUPILS" (emphasis mine)

quote.. Norway remains a country where kosher slaughter is banned (but not Muslim slaughter) and Muslim Jew hatred is rampant....
What can you say about a country that allows Muslim ritual slaughter yet adamantly bans kosher slaughter? What can you say about a government that orders the removal of security cameras covering approaches to a synagogue after the synagogue has been shot at?...Unquote

I know the mobots answer as their institutionalised Jew hatred asserts itself -- The Joos are responsible.(or anyone but their hatefilled selves).. their normal reaction when they are shown to be the barbarians they really are.

Sadly Norway will be the loser as the islamic time machine turns back the clock 1400 years

Carol D (346)
Monday October 15, 2012, 1:07 am
It gets more sad every day!!! And every day someone backs down the stronger Islam gets! Then there are people ;like Barbara W and Wolf that are like vultures that come around and pick the pieces apart!

Hilary S (65)
Monday October 15, 2012, 1:45 am
the death of 1000 cuts. this is too sad, that antisemitism thrives in places where there are no jewish people, or close to none. norway thus opens its way to islamisation. (the greatest tragedy is this polarisation)

Carola May (20)
Monday October 15, 2012, 2:04 am
The Neo-Nazi Islamists, Barbara W and Wolf (what a grand Aryan name that is!), will love these quotes from Jew-hating Islam:

Bukhari:V4B52N176 "Allah's Apostle said, 'You Muslims will fight the Jews till some of them hide behind stones. The stones will betray them saying, "O Abdullah (slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him."'"

Qur'an 2:64 "But you [Jews] went back on your word and were lost losers. So
become apes, despised and hated. We made an example out of you."

Ishaq:240 "The Jews are a nation of liars.... The Jews are a treacherous, lying, and evil people."

Bukhari:V4B53N380 "Umar expelled all the Jews and Christians from Arabia." (so much for the religion of 'peace and tolerance') Where is your demand, Wolf, for these peoples 'right of return'???

Qur'an 98:1 "...Surely the unbelievers and idolaters from the People of the Book will abide in the Fire of Hell.
They are the worst of creatures."

There are pages of hate toward Jews, Christians and all non-Muslims - 109 verses in the Qur'an alone. Where is the outrage against all of this Islamic hate and bigotry? Is it any wonder so many Muslims are so eagerly consumed with hate and violence toward them?

The Islamic Trilogy (Qur'an, hadith, sirah) contain more anti-Jewish hate than Hitler's 'Mein Kampf'. The Grand Mufti of Muslim-conquered and occupied Jerusalem met with Hitler several times and tried to get him to come and kill and the Jews there in their own city. 100,000 Balkan Muslims volunteered for the Nazi military to kill Jews and all the others that Islam hates. But Islam gets the soft-glove treatment by all these Islamic appeasers.


Jay S (116)
Monday October 15, 2012, 2:09 am
So Barbara W, you sound like you are saying the Jews bring all the hate on themselves for wanting their homeland back from the conquering and oppressing Muslims. Does that mean you would also dismiss violence against Muslims for their ideology of hate and violence toward all others that they pursue daily around the world?

Giana Peranio-paz (398)
Monday October 15, 2012, 2:17 am
The only thing I agree with Barbara W is that Netanyahu's pushing for war with Iran does makes things more difficult for us.

Gillian M (218)
Monday October 15, 2012, 2:21 am
It am always annoyed by people like wold who claim to be for human rights yet attack Jews continuously. it is either implying that Jews have no rights.
however, such people are quick enough to use Jewish research. After all, it must be on a computer of some kind.........

Monday October 15, 2012, 2:44 am
So Lagerführerin Barbara W. based on something said by someone sometime between the years of 1860 and 1904 you can categorically inform us that there is a Jewish/ Zionist/ Voltan conspiracy to get Jews to persecute Jews in all countries other than Israel. That sounds exactly as if you keep a copy of Mein Kampf next to your PC and another one by your coffee machine.By the way, in spite of their being some brave resistance to Nazi occupation by Norwegians in WW2, over 15,000 flocked to join the SS. The word that you Barbara probably hold in high regard, “Quisling” was a Norwegian invention.

Ira Herson (13)
Monday October 15, 2012, 3:30 am
As I have said on many occasions "people hate Israel because it is Jewish, not Jews because of Israel".

If Israel was called Hamasstan would Jews in in Norway be welcome? I do not think so.

The anti-Semites like Barbra and her friends are a typical example of hate. They completely mis-direct the point of Zionism. It is not used by Jews to create antisemitism so Jews will go to Israel. It was a way to get Jews out of harms way from the hate filled oppressive people like Barbra and co.

A question that has to be asked is, why are there only 819 Jews left in Norway? Why so few? Could the exodus of Jews be because of the oppressive nature of Muslims in Norway driving them out for some time?

At what point does it finally register that Zionism does not control the world, Islam does? When will it be obvious that Zionism is simply what it claims to be a desire for a Jewish homeland. That is all . Not world domination or oppression of the Islamic world. Nowhere do Jews write that Muslims are the brothers of pigs and apes. Nowhere do Jews write Muslims will burn in hell or that you should kill Muslims or that all Muslims are lairs. No the only people that call for murder and death, dehumanize others by calling them animals are the Muslims and their antisemitic friends.

Egypt, the largest Arab country shows clerics on television calling for the death of all Jews and that it is the duty of Muslims to kill Jews.

I am sickened by this news. Shame on Norway for allowing things to get so bad that 819 of its people feel so unwelcome and unsafe that they have to leave their country. Shame on the people that find excuses for this bigotry and hate.

Shame on people that claim that its the Jews fault, if it were not for Israel the Jews would be fine. Tell that to the 6 million that were killed in Europe during WWII. There was no Israel/Palestinian problem then.

The Nazis did not give a rats ass about Zionism. Like Barbra and her friends they just wanted Jews dead.

patrica and edw jones (190)
Monday October 15, 2012, 3:58 am
If the Jews and Israel ceased to exist - what would people like Howling wolf, Barbra et al have to feed their incessant hatred?

patrica and edw jones (190)
Monday October 15, 2012, 4:12 am
Like Christ who came to show us the way - so the Jews are here to show us how to overcome and survive in the face of hatred, malice, jealousy, deprivation.. After all they have been at it for so long- about four thousand years - and we should certainly have learnt a thing or two from them by now. They will never know defeat. Thanks Gillian. Be'ahavat Yisrael, shalom.

Gene J (290)
Monday October 15, 2012, 5:52 am
"They could emigrate to the United States or Israel. Dutch politicians from the ranks of the Socialists even marched together with Muslims, who called publicly for the gassing of Jews. None of this is discussed openly in the European media. Finally, German journalists portray Muslims as upstanding people who have nothing in common with right-wing extremists. German journalists by their complacency are aiding and abbetting the expulsion of Jews from Europe. They are, it seems in denial about the Islamic wave sweeping Europe."

So? This what it comes to? The Nazi's are back and once again complicit with the German government? All over Europe this is happening? When will people realize that there is no appeasing Islam? That once all Jews are confined to the US and Israel, the Muslims will come for them? For they too are infidels. One would think the German people would still remember Krystal Nacht. One would think the politicians in these countries, and their police forces, would know a bit about what the ultimate goal of Islam is? Conversion or extermination of everyone who isn't and they don't much care which. I believe we need a one world governmental structure but I do not believe that it should be based on Sharia. If I had the power, I'd make the oil go poof and leave these barbarians to their deserts. They'd be too busy fighting each other to bother the rest of the world. They've built no infrastructure with their oil money so they'll all be back to herding camels and goats once it is gone and the world will have developed a green alternative fuel - if we could create the atomic bomb with the Manhattan project, why could not the best minds in the world brought together and funded well do the same in discovering a green alternative to fossil fuels? We could, but for the interference of the fossil fuel industry and its conscienceless billionaires. And we should.

Norway's solution will come back to haunt them, because the muslims are coming for them next. Try appeasing your way out of that you flipping cowards.

pam w (139)
Monday October 15, 2012, 6:51 am
"You cannot currently send a star to Gene because you have done so within the last week."

+++++++++++++++ I owe you one for that last sentence, Gene! Like you...I'd wish for the power to tell the bqarbarians to DRINK their oil!

pam w (139)
Monday October 15, 2012, 6:53 am
OOOOPS...I hit "submit" too soon.

YOU know why those "best minds in the world" haven't created good alternatives to oil....the oil companies have been in bed with car manufacturers and politicians for decades! We don't like to think about how we've been the entire world is at the heel of a few major businesses.'s true.

divergent revolution (309)
Monday October 15, 2012, 8:20 am
As a Native American whose country was stolen, I feel a kinship with Israel.NEVER AGAIN.......

Beatrice B (112)
Monday October 15, 2012, 12:12 pm
Norway: The Most Anti-Semitic Country in the West

“The current Labor/radical left Norwegian government is promoting an extreme one-sided and negative stance toward Israel. It is responsible for creating a politically-correct hatred of Israel among many people in the country. This has made Norway, in my view, the most anti-Semitic country in the West. In Norwegian history, there has never been such an anti-Israeli attitude.”

Hanne Nabintu Herland is a Norwegian academic and a historian of religion. She has authored several successful books. The latest one, Respect, published in February 2012, received a lot of publicity and tops the country’s best seller list.

Yet, there has been complete public silence regarding the sharp criticism she poses in the book against the current leftist government for its biased view on Israel.

Herland says, “Control on public opinion is so strong in Norway that it is questionable whether it can be considered a free democratic state. The Labor
Party has widely used the terror attack by Anders Breivik against it on 22 July 2011 to further discriminate against any opposition and shut down public debate.”

She adds: “The Norwegian government indirectly accepts the Hamas agenda where its main goals include ethnic cleansing, terror, and genocide
against the Jews. Labor Party Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Støre regularly defends Hamas in newspapers abroad. In February 2011, he did this in the
International Herald Tribune, for instance.

“Last year Støre was caught lying on a live program on Norwegian TV2. There he denied that he held continuous talks with Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal. Yet Stǿre had to admit this when the reporter told him that Meshaal had mentioned these conversations. What initially may have been
an act of naiveté is by now suspect of deliberate malice. In the long term, Støre is tarnishing Norway’s international reputation by acting as a Hamas

“The way Norway funds Hamas with hundreds of millions of Norwegian kroner taxpayer’s money, is pure corruption. When African states buy their
way to influence, we call it corruption. But in essence, the Labor Party is practicing the same - billions leave the country in order for Norway to
buy friends in foreign states where they otherwise would have little or no influence.

“Despite major anti-Israel propaganda last year, a poll undertaken by Norway’s largest paper Verdens Gang found that 60% of the Norwegian
people believes that Israel is right in claiming that coverage of it in Norwegian media is biased. This survey was done after the Israeli embassy
in Oslo had filed a complaint against the state broadcasting authority NRK for its biased reporting.

“This anti-Israelism is often accompanied by anti-Semitism. Jewish children in Norwegian schools particularly suffer from it. According to a study, many
of them are harassed much more than other minorities.

“One may wonder why the Norwegian establishment is continuously badgering the only democracy in the Middle East. Many in Norway and
Europe at large no longer recognize the historical link of their traditional culture with the Jewish people. Those who spread the Ten Commandments
laid the infrastructure for civilized societies. The Jews have contributed greatly to the development of European culture.”

In spring 2011, Herland published an article titled “Norway is the Most anti-Semitic Country in the West.”

In it she wrote: “Culturally, we have much more in common with the Jewish people than one would think. Western civilization’s values have their cradle in Greek and Roman contributions, but when it comes to values, in the Hebrew-Christian contribution. The European humanistic view of the dignity of human beings regardless of rank, class or ethnicity, carries deep roots from Judaism. These values are at the core of what it means to belong to Western Civilization today.”

Herland observes: “The new Western secular values imply a rejection of respect for our culture’s historical link to the Jewish people. Many in the
West do not understand that Islam’s radical religious movement projects maximum resistance against what they perceive as Western decadence and

“The new Muslim friends of many Western secularists treat several minorities in Islamic countries with violence. Sharia law is considered a cultural alternative to the Western legal system. What started as the

Left’s sympathy for the weak has turned into support for totalitarian coercion. This also includes backing a pronounced anti-Israelism. Today these undemocratic attitudes dominate the politically controlled voices in countries like Norway in a manner that clearly resembles Soviet propaganda.

“In March 2011, the renowned Harvard lawyer, Alan Dershowitz came to Oslo. He offered to lecture at three Norwegian universities without payment.
They all turned him down. Thereafter, Dershowitz wrote an article in the Wall Street Journal where he conveyed how anti-Semitic Norwegian academics let him know that he was persona non grata. This affair made me ashamed to be Norwegian. I am looking forward to the day when the present government will be defeated. Then hopefully, an end will come to their propaganda and the misleading image of Israel which they continuously portray to the Norwegian public.”

Dr. Manfred Gerstenfeld

Past Member (0)
Monday October 15, 2012, 12:57 pm
I'm not making any judgement calls here, i'm just stating historical fact. This isn't the 1st time that Jews have been unwelcome in Europe. From the time of the Renaissance, every European nation has evicted the Jews at least once, mostly for usury.

Barbara W (342)
Monday October 15, 2012, 12:58 pm
As a native American what are your feelings about the treatment of Palestinians tasunka? What are your feelings about sacrificing the children of Palestine? The theft of "THEIR" land? I have said this many times and I "Dare" say it again.. No child, anywhere in the world, should ever be viewed as acceptable collateral damage"

Children, no matter the culture or religious preference of their parents, are precious. Double standards, prejudices, ignorance murdered millions of America's first people. Many were women and children..Was this right? NOT anymore then what the Palestinians are suffering.
Nothing I have ever written nor offered as links has ever been against the Jewish culture, it's people nor the religious history of the Jewish people. As a Christian I understand very well and cherish our connection..Jesus was a JEW and I cherish his teachings.. Those of you who "Dare" cast aspersions just don't get it"

The political, key word political, movement of Zionism has crossed the line. That too is very biblical.. The lord God did not lead the Jews back to the holy land in this manner. Political Zionists and those who serve the Zionist political agenda did this beginning in 1917..escalated in 48-67.. Jews Faithful to the Torah, understand the difference..

This entire Middle East fiasco is inner-related.. Most of you responding to my offering above only know how to call people names. You are guilty of doing this on all posts that relate to Israel.. And I "Dare" say that it's you and your bullying tactics that are very harmful to the Peace, sanctity and safety, of all Jews throughout the world. I am not anti-Semitic as it's a word used to describe something that does not exist! Research Anti-Semite.

Yes! There are those who hate Jews! Hate Arabs! Hate Many things and that's a sorry example of ignorance in the world..Whenever a Jew protests against the politics of Zionism you, on this forum, call them "JEW HATER".. Another bullying tactic used to quell dissent..

Well over 1 million Jews in the world today have had the courage to speak up and out against "THE" Politics of Zionism.. That's biblical as well.. Many Americans, even Europeans, are attacking the politics of Capitalism! Does that make US/them anti-America.. NO! It makes US anti-Gr$$d... Anti-Empire.. Anti bully's..Anti-war..

Netanyahu is a bully and so too are many in the Israeli Lukid party.. For years "We" have heard about Israel's good intentions. Well a dear friend once told me "Good Intentions are born of hell" Even Ariel Sharon, a hard liner, left the Lukid party. The world's citizens have tired of wars. American's have tired of wars! Reasonable people have tired of wars.. Listen/Read.....THE GENERAL:S SON... I have shared this many times an not one of you has yet to respond

NOTE: Who among you on this post have listened to this man, Miko Peled? Who among you on this post will? Is he not Jewish enough? Was his family not ZIONIST enough? His family goes back to the very early years of Israel's claim to this area..His father was a well respected General in Israel.. Miko Peled speaks from the heart where all believers of the one God must.

Those of you who "Dare" use ANTI-SEMITISM to get your way are the very essence that's causing this problem in the world today.. Listen well to this video and listen to the very end. And then let's have a discussion about why some of you feel Miko Peled is wrong! He's a hero! His father and mother would be so proud of the Jewish boy they raised..

Paraphrasing something Mikos says in this video.. : The Zionist themselves have crushed their ability to create an ethnically Homogenized state as it was shattered due to their ill-treatment and stealing of Palestinian lands. Listen to Miko Peled tell you what his family learned all those years ago. Why his father, a top ranking General in the Israeli army, changed his view.. What's happening in the world today has it's roots embedded in what Miko Peled shares. Only a fool or someone complicit in the Israeli atrocities would "Dare" disagree!

"Children are not Acceptable Collateral Damage"
"In his presentation at this weekend’s conference, Miko Peled, the Israeli-born anti-Zionist and advocate of equal rights and decolonization in a single state, made the observation that every cause of social justice in history that has been worth fighting for was divisive in its time. The Civil Rights struggle in the United States was one such cause, but even more divisive than that, Peled reminded us, was slavery. So divisive, it led to Civil War in which hundreds of thousands died."


Miko Peled is a peace activist who dares to say in public what others still choose to deny. Born in Jerusalem in 1961 into a well known Zionist family, his grandfather, Dr. Avraham Katsnelson was a Zionist leader and signer of the Israeli Declaration of Independence. His Father, Matti Peled, was a young officer in the war of 1948 and a general in the war of 1967 when Israel conquered the West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights and Sinai.

Miko's unlikely opinions reflect his father's legacy. General Peled was a war hero turned peacemaker.
Miko grew up in Jerusalem, a multi-ethnic city, but had to leave Israel before he made his first Palestinian friend, the result of his participation in a dialogue group in California. He was 39.

On September 4, 1997 the beloved Smadar, 13, the daughter of Miko's sister Nurit and her husband Rami Elhanan was killed in a suicide attack.

Peled insists that Israel/Palestine is one state—the separation wall notwithstanding, massive investment in infrastructure, towns and highways that bisect and connect settlements on the West Bank, have destroyed the possibility for a viable Palestinian state. The result, Peled says is that Israelis and Palestinians are governed by the same government but live under different sets of laws.

At the heart of Peled's conclusion lies the realization that Israelis and Palestinians can live in peace as equals in their shared homeland."
More on Miko Peled...
Jewish Author Miko Peled: Palestine Freedom Battle “Will Be Won”!

Barbara W (342)
Monday October 15, 2012, 1:06 pm
Jew Settlers Stoning Palestine Christian Children walking to school

Sharon F (0)
Monday October 15, 2012, 1:31 pm
Quoting the late Rodney King "Why can't we all just get along?" Peace to all!!!

Fred Krohn (34)
Monday October 15, 2012, 1:48 pm
Antisemitism is a terminal illness - of both nations and individuals. I expect Sweden will soon annex Norway again and my birth nation will have vanished, slain by the same disease that took out the 3rd Reich!

Alexander W (53)
Monday October 15, 2012, 1:50 pm
Barbara, how exactly Jews are stealing The Land of Israel?

Let me ask you this: Arabs got the whole Middle East lands, 22 countries and 10 thousand times more land than Jews. Arab states oppress their minorities and never gave any of them lands for their own countries: Kurds, Druze, Azeri are fighting long wars to have countries of their own.

Why should Arabs be given 23-rd state after 22 other states miserably failed to provide for their citizen? Why should Israel gave away its tiny land to the ethnic group that has much more land and known militant intention against the very Israel?

Please, try to be the least reasonable.

Alexa R (319)
Monday October 15, 2012, 1:51 pm
Wow Barbara, do you seriously expect us to actually BELIEVE all this anti-Semitic unfounded off topic propaganda that you're thrashing down our throats here - a misguided attempt it seems to try convincing us that anti-Semitism is JUSTIFIED?!?

I have news for you, anti-Semitism is NOT justified. And NEVER will be. Jews, Israelis, Zionists are NOT the demons you're trying to make them out to be! All the violence and discrimination, hate and intolerence Jews, Israelis, Zionists experience is NOT justified, your attempt at convincing has failed.


Monday October 15, 2012, 1:52 pm
The problem in my opinion is not the people in general be they Jewish, Arab, Black, or European. The problem is the extreme Ideologies like Nazism, Zionism, and groups like KKK. Most groups attempt to tie religious scripture to their bigotry. There are so-called Muslims who are bigoted terrorist. But neither the bible or the Koran advocate violence accept in self defense.

Zionism at present is the worst of ideologies on behalf of the Jews. Zionism ideology might have contributed in gaining the Jews a homeland, but this ideology is now contributing greatly to a worldwide hatred of Jewish people. What is so painful is that since the Jews already have a homeland, there is no need for Zionism. Unless you have aims to steal more Palestinian land. Zionism is kept alive because of the continued occupation, stealing of Palestinian land, water, and the war crimes that took place in Gaza.

The last link by Barbara remain me of how black children integrating into southern schools had to be escorted by American troops. What is so ironic is that these children are the natives in a land where they must be protected from adult stone throwers. Whatever is happening in Norway couldn't be as bad as what these children are going through.

David C (129)
Monday October 15, 2012, 1:59 pm
I guess the EU should give up their Nobel Peace Prize!
Please don't equate Zionism and Judaism....yes Jews Israel to exist as a Jewish homeland,but LIKE EVERYTHING there are few absolutes.....not all Jews believe Israel is always right.....just as all Muslims are not terrorists....or all Christians half-wits who vote for the GOP or act anti-christ like.....


Gillian M (218)
Monday October 15, 2012, 2:01 pm
Barbara, if you want to know which countries are anti-Palestinians then look at the Muslim controlled countries. They do not want them there and will not allow them citizenship even though, under international law, they are born there and entitled to a passport. I note that you do not condemn Syria or Jordan for taking their land.

Finally, there are no such people as Palestinians so your rhetoric is not only totally wrong but totally racist, as always.

Hamas TV teaches kids to kill Jews
Hamas imam says "KIll all the Jews"
Hamas: Kill Christians and Jews "to the last one"
Non-Muslims Burned Alive & Mutilated by islamic radicals
Muslims hate and kill Palestinian Christians

There are dozens of these but I couldn't be bothered to search for the one that says Barbara W wants Jews out of Israel.

Jews have been persecuted around the world for thousands of years yet there is still no peace for them in their own country, anti-Semites hound them there. They attack the people that support them. Why do you attack tansuka for disagreeing with you?

"What are your feelings about sacrificing the children of Palestine?" That is something that Jews, especially Israelis abhor not the Muslim terrorists who use them as a human shield and suicide bombers. I note that you have no objections to Jewish/Israeli children being killed by terrorists who target them. They suffer under daily rocket attacks, you fail to mention those. You sit happily and safely in your home, stolen from Native Americans, and condemn those who suffer.


Alexa R (319)
Monday October 15, 2012, 2:04 pm
TERRANCE N: "Whatever is happening in Norway couldn't be as bad as what these children are going through."

Wherever you got this idea from is completely removed from reality. In Tel Aviv, and many places in Israel, I would rather be a Palestinian there (I've seen first hand how well they're treated, I even taught some Arab students myself at one point) than being a Jew in Norway or even in UK, France, etc (and once more I speak of personal experience and observations and confirmed by many independent studies).

77% Palestinian Arabs: We like Living in Israel best
By Judith A. Klinghoffer

It is difficult to find a more neglected story than the relative satisfaction of Palestinian Arabs living in Israel as is revealed from a recent Harvard Study. (Palestinians Arabs (including those living in greater Jerusalem) constitute 20% of the population). Aware of inconvenient polls which reveal that Palestinian living in Israel are vehemently opposed to becoming citizens of Palestine, the researchers did their best to lower the satisfaction number by phrasing the question so as to receive the most negative number. They asked Palestinian Arab if they would rather live in Israel or in any other country in the world.

77% of the State of Israel’s Arab citizens would rather live in the Jewish state than in any other country in the world, according to a new study titled “Coexistence in Israel”. The study was aimed at examining the relations between Israel’s Jewish and Arab citizens on the State’s 60th anniversary, and included 1,721 respondents.

The findings also revealed that a great majority of Israel’s citizens (73% of the Jews and 94% of the Arabs) want to live in a society in which Arab and Jewish citizens have mutual respect and equal opportunities.

66% percent of Jewish citizens and 84% of Arab citizens believe the Israeli government investments should begin now, and not wait until the end of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians."

Gillian M (218)
Monday October 15, 2012, 2:10 pm
Terrance, the koran specifically states that Muslims should be killed. Any early version has been overwritten by the untrustworthy robber baron who killed, robbed, murdered and raped his way around the country. Mohammed was a hedonistic, necrophiliac, self-indulgent paedophile.

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

Unlike nearly all of the Old Testament verses of violence, the verses of violence in the Quran are mostly open-ended, meaning that they are not restrained by the historical context of the surrounding text. They are part of the eternal, unchanging word of Allah, and just as relevant or subjective as anything else in the Quran.

Unfortunately, there are very few verses of tolerance and peace to abrogate or even balance out the many that call for nonbelievers to be fought and subdued until they either accept humiliation, convert to Islam, or are killed. Muhammad's own martial legacy - and that of his companions - along with the remarkable stress on violence found in the Quran have produced a trail of blood and tears across world history.

For the actual quotes please go to

Alexa R (319)
Monday October 15, 2012, 2:12 pm
Dave C: "Please don't equate Zionism and Judaism....



Dave since when is ZIONISM a religion? According to what you said, MUST "PEOPLE SUCK UP" ZIONISM or JUDAISM?

Judaism does not motivate or cause hatred, but teaches, motivates and creates love for all human kind.

Zionism promotes Judaism. Both make this world a better place, daily.


Past Member (0)
Monday October 15, 2012, 3:11 pm
What shocks me even more that there is a extreme right-wing petition here at the Care2 forum for more since 10 month now, and nobody did anything against it.
I´m a member since a couple of days and discovered the petition a few days ago. Immediately I made an anouncement in my human rights group in which was looking for Care2 members that would support me to start a petition against the Neonazi-Group that started the extreme right-wing petition.
And big surprise: not one person answered !!!!!!
I´m shocked and dissapointed about that result. So one hand everybody here is complaining about Neonazi tendencies in society, on the other hand nobody is doing anything against it.
It´s not enough to just talk and complain about Neonazis! We have to fight against them.
So I´m asking again if there are members of Care2 that would like to help me starting a petition against a NeoNazi petition which I discoverd here on Care2. In the petition they plea to free the extreme right-wing terrorist Anders Breivik which killed last year in Norway more than 80 people in a massacre. The undersigners of the petition (most of them are Scandinavian and Russian) are using Neonazi-phrases and ideologies in their comments. More than 600 people have already signed this Neonazi-petition! It´s a shame for a forum like Care2 that nobody did something against this petition.
I would be very happy if people would contact me and we could start together a petition against that. I feel that my English is to poor to write the petition on my own and I don´´t have any experience in starting a petition. Anyway I think if we are a group we could spread the petition better.
Greetings, Evelyn

Tom Edgar (56)
Monday October 15, 2012, 3:16 pm
There WAS a Palestine where the three major religions all lived. relatively peacefully until it as stolen with the connivance of France, Britain and the U S A and given to a religion. Let us not forget the Hotel King David and the
the atrocity committed by the Zionists there.

Major parts were then removed from non Jewish ownership and incorporated into the State of Israel, whilst the lawful owners were evicted from their lands.

I do not condone Islam, any more than I do the other people "Of the Book". The world would be a better place without all the religions and their hatreds.

Oh and I do have a damned sight more Jewish blood than you.

Barbara W (342)
Monday October 15, 2012, 3:20 pm

My remarks to tasunka atsea was not an attack. I have no reason to attack tasunka. You make everything into an attack..You're always on the attack.
"Barbara, how exactly Jews are stealing The Land of Israel?" Bob read/listen to The Generals Son..

Not one of you have yet to discuss The Generals Son! I posted this story months ago and not one of you have responded. I have added it to posts, like this one, not one of you have responded!

Why? Is it too hard for you to articulate in easy to understand honest terms where the truth lies? Or is the truth something that eludes your senses?

Whenever I allow myself to come on one of your posts it's the same self-serving game plan. No discussion is allowed unless it leans in your direction. Your thought process! Your ideas of what's fair or not, is skewed! You talk at people who have a different opinion. You make someone's comments/offerings into an anti Semitic attack.. Your nonsense is alienating...

I will reiterate: Your willful disregard for concrete evidence, the other-side of this story, 'The Generals Son",..
and your unyielding mind-set is hurting the Jewish community..

You are not a friend of JEWS.


Zionism is NOT Judaism..
The true facts about Traditional Jews and the state of Israel..

"Recently, self-proclaimed Jewish leaders launched a provocative campaign of newspaper advertisements

regarding the policies of the American administration on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Perhaps some

are left with the impression that these individuals indeed represent American Jewry.

The fact is, they represent only themselves.

We, traditional Torah Jews, are distressed and appalled by these ads, as well as by the Zionists' tactic of

abusing American Jewry to advance their agenda. Therefore, we hereby publicize the following facts:"
Judaism And Zionism Are Not The Same Thing
Zionism Is NOT Judaism
Thanks Dave. I could not agree more.. (QUOTE: Please don't equate Zionism and Judaism....yes Jews Israel to exist as a Jewish homeland,but LIKE EVERYTHING there are few absolutes.....not all Jews believe Israel is always right.....just as all Muslims are not terrorists....or all Christians half-wits who vote for the GOP or act anti-christ like).....
Jewish Author Miko Peled: Palestine Freedom Battle “Will Be Won”!

Barbara W (342)
Monday October 15, 2012, 3:44 pm
Worth repeating: Thank you Tom.. A voice of truth and reason..

"There WAS a Palestine where the three major religions all lived. relatively peacefully until it as stolen with the connivance of France, Britain and the U S A and given to a religion. Let us not forget the Hotel King David and the
the atrocity committed by the Zionists there.

Major parts were then removed from non Jewish ownership and incorporated into the State of Israel, whilst the lawful owners were evicted from their lands.

I do not condone Islam, any more than I do the other people "Of the Book". The world would be a better place without all the religions and their hatreds.

Oh and I do have a damned sight more Jewish blood than you. Touche'

g d c (0)
Monday October 15, 2012, 4:03 pm

Alexa R (319)
Monday October 15, 2012, 4:06 pm
Barbara W: "There WAS a Palestine where the three major religions all lived. relatively peacefully "

There IS Israel now where the three major religions all live relatively peacefully, more so than in times past.

It is in NORWAY where Jews are targetted to the extreme and where there is NO peace between the three religions, so too UK, France, etc - most or all ME countries - is NO place for Jews or Christians, with the EXCEPTION of Israel (in Israel the three major religions live relatively peaceful at PRESENT). If ONLY Norway (UK, France, ME like Syria, Egypt, Iran etc) would follow Israel's example of how to live in peace between the three major religions!


Stan B (123)
Monday October 15, 2012, 4:19 pm
The post is about Norway's Jewish population being persecuted and threatened by Muslim immigrants bringing their anti-Semitic hatred with them. It isn't about Israel or Palestine though it does give the likes of Barbara W the opportunity to show their true colours.
Robert O. I find your comment most offensive. The reason why many Jews were forced into nefarious occupations like money-lending is that during 2000 years of persecution, they were not allowed the freedom to choose their occupations or to undertake studies which non-Jews were free to do. Check your history.

Brad Miller (120)
Monday October 15, 2012, 4:39 pm
Religious hatred is lunacy. That's the problem here. I feel for, empathise with, the peaceful, open-minded moderates on all sides.

Eternal G (745)
Monday October 15, 2012, 5:04 pm
Holy crap... not something to brag about!

Monday October 15, 2012, 6:05 pm
Alexandra, I don't see any pictures of Jewish children hit under the eye in Norway as a result of Norwesians throwing stones at Jewish children.

The Palestinians who live in Tele viv don't want to rock the vote in order to maintain their comfortable existence. History is full of dominate occupying, conquering forces creating "uncle toms" as propaganda tools for the state.

The average Palestinian and their children only want a peaceful life in which their children can learn and develop.The zionist on the other hand have a goal of land expropriation. You might get your ill begotton land but the world will hate you for it.

Gilliam, does it help anyones cause by referring to Muhammad (someone held in very high esteem by millions of people) such names? Where is all this hate coming from? I have read accounts in the old testament of violence, betrayal, etc,. But I'm not going to personalize, slander, attribute it to a religion or race, and unnecessarily incure the raft of millions of people?

If Palestinians can live in peace in Tele viv, why can't they live in peace in the entire area? The more Palestinians are occupied, oppressed, and discriminated against there will be an external reaction from Iran, Hezbolla in Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, and now countries in Europe. Favorable sentiments in America is even starting to shift as the American economy start to suffer because of our involvement in wars in the middle east. Americans are tired of seeing themselves forced to sacrifice because of our military budget, wars, and military aid to Israel and Egypt.

The is to give the Palestinians the same rights you want for yourself.

monica r (41)
Monday October 15, 2012, 6:48 pm
Read "Mein Quranpf" because where Jesus teaches "love one another," Mohammad and allaah teach "hate and kill ALL non-Muslims."

Eurabia needs to wake up, because it's been said "first the Saturday people, then the Sunday people.

If they still have those "NEVER AGAIN" buttons for sale someplace I'm going to start wearing one. The sick irony of multiculturalism is that it leads to islamic monoculture. We think we're saving ourselves by throwing Jews to the wolves? Guess again, it just prolongs the inevitable. At least it is inevitable unless we don't just WAKE up, but STAND UP. I'd recommend doing so before standing up requires armed conflict.

Alexa R (319)
Monday October 15, 2012, 6:55 pm
TERRANCE N. "Alexandra, I don't see any pictures of Jewish children hit under the eye in Norway as a result of Norwesians throwing stones at Jewish children. "

What you see in Norway is the murdering and rape of Jews - JudenRein or JudenFrei (free of any Jews) is what Norway is becoming.

What you see in Israel or how Judaist law works in Israel: if someone commits a crime, the accusers take them to court and after a trial, the perpetrators are either convicted, not enough evidence, or acquitted. For example, the assault by Israeli youngsters' gang on an Arab recently got universal condemnation in Israel, and the perpetrators (12-17 years olds), are in jail as we speak.

Here in Israel we DON'T justify assault (murder/rape), we condemn it. PERIOD. This is how we achieve relative peace between the three religions, UNLIKE Norway where they're becoming increasingly JudenRein/JudenFrei (free of any Jews).

Mary Donnelly (47)
Monday October 15, 2012, 7:12 pm
Thanks for extraordinary posts and comments.

patrica and edw jones (190)
Monday October 15, 2012, 7:31 pm
Norway is showing its true colours again. During WW2 - after the invasion of Norway by the Germans - in excess of 50,000 Norwegians fought within the ranks of the German Wehrmacht - and nowhere did Norwegians serve in greater numbers than in the Waffen-SS!! Others served in the Kriegsmarine, Luftwaffe and other auxiliary forces. So it is no real surprise they want to be 'Judenfrei' - a leopard rarely changes its spots.

Kenneth L (314)
Monday October 15, 2012, 8:06 pm
Problem----when 2 different people and their religions want 1 place.
Problem---when the God of one religion is not in full agreement with the God of another (Torah and Koran), which of course causes a problem between the peoples of the two religions.
Personally I get tired of any God of any religion telling people this that and the other. 'My people' and 'us' are 'special' compared to other people. If you want a recipe for a problem, there's one right there.
Could any God be so stupid or small as to need to create problems?

Everln, that 'free Breivik' petition would be a psycho petition indeed. Anybody who murders 80 people is psycho and it doesn't matter what they think or say as to the'reasons' they did it.

Stephen Brian (23)
Monday October 15, 2012, 8:08 pm
Hi Evelyn :)

Welcome to the party. Unfortunately, there isn't much use to an anti-Nazi petition here. They don't really care about our objections, and if they ever do gain power, I would rather not hand them a list of political opponents. Also, there are quite a few Nazi-like members of Care2, with views so similar that they would oppose the petition. They don't identify themselves as Nazis, and mostly don't even realize what their political positions really add up to in practical terms, but they're here. Then there is the American dominance of Care2 and the American views on freedom of expression, where it absolutely must not be restricted for any reason. I would sign your petition, but I would rather not be on that list of targets.

Stephen Brian (23)
Monday October 15, 2012, 8:14 pm
Hi Terrance,

I think we've gone over this before. Your comment about Zionism being extremist would be accurate only if the definition which you use of Zionism actually matched that used by the vast majority of Zionists and Zionist organizations. I could just as easily declare that Christian doctrine included the rape of babies and that all Christians were monstrous. I could even probably dig up a few cases of mentally ill poeple who identify themselves as Christian and raped babies. That wouldn't make Christians in general horrible people.

Also, how could Zionism or the behaviour of Israel possibly justify the ban on Kosher meat in Norway or the rampant harassment of Jewish students there? Also, how exactly could Zionism create the sentiments behind these policies when the ban on Kosher meat is over 100 years old?

Lydia S (71)
Monday October 15, 2012, 10:08 pm
At Barbara W -- After reading your "comments" (?) I found myself shaking my head in disbelief! Do you REALLY believe what you wrote? Did you bother reading the article?

FROM THE ARTICLE: "“Many immigrants bring with them anti-Semitism from their countries of origin.

The disgrace is that no one opposes them in this country. “It is the wave of Muslim immigration in Europe that has revived anti-Semitism."


What a load of hogwash! Your "premise" makes as much sense as saying that the founding & existence of the NAACP is the "cause" of racism and hatred of African Americans -- and keeps the KKK alive and active!

Lydia S (71)
Monday October 15, 2012, 10:45 pm
Gene Jacobson wrote: "Norway's solution will come back to haunt them, because the muslims are coming for them next. Try appeasing your way out of that you flipping cowards."

Not just Norway, but all the European countries ... France is already paying a heavy price for their "tolerance". Sadly, it's the politicians who are guilty of these crimes against the people. The French, Germans, Norwegians, etc., haven't necessarily wanted this invasion, but have learned to "live with it" ... and some, have stupidly, bought into this islamization!

The UK is turning into a (predominantly) Pakistani hellhole, with "honor killings" on the rise. Scotland Yard is "training" police to recognize "signs of honor killings! They now have a separate category for these types of murders!

Tom Edgar (56)
Tuesday October 16, 2012, 12:09 am
Salman Rushdie so succinctly wrote. "Why do they flee from their countries and persist in bringing with them the problems from which they fled.?" or words to that effect.

This has pretty well been the same over millennia. from Conquistadors and Catholicism, Protestant evangelism, Islamic idiocy, Israeli expansionism, and all the other self righteous isms that use some religious excuse for fleeing one place to enforce their beliefs on another. When will y'all wake up and realise that NEVER has there been replicable, evidence for the existence of any God let alone all the different ideas emanating from the thousands of Gods that have ever had their ugly heads advanced as excuses for robbing another group's cherished beliefs.

My Father who'll never reside in heaven. would often say. I'd sooner a Jew come to this country than a Greek or Italian. The Jew will make his money, and stay with it here, The others send it home and later go there too. Today he would be so wrong the roles are reversed. Now the Israelis have a stolen country to which they make sure their American Government sends vast quantities of cash and weapons. Oi vay so many schmucks.

reft h (66)
Tuesday October 16, 2012, 1:01 am
Once they get rid of the Jews, the haters will need another group to persecute - its just a matter of bullies picking their next target. The world is one big schoolyard.

Stan B (123)
Tuesday October 16, 2012, 2:47 am
Parvez. You are a wonderful example of your faith and the hate and intolerance it is spreading all over the world.

Past Member (0)
Tuesday October 16, 2012, 3:47 am
Whether one likes Jews, hates Jews or is indifferent in their opinion of Jews, it is the end of the world as we know it.

pam w (139)
Tuesday October 16, 2012, 9:35 am
Parvez----what a classic example of bigotry and anti-semitism.

Aren't YOU just the most humane little cupcake in the box?


Nancy L (141)
Tuesday October 16, 2012, 10:10 am
Pam the UN is a joke.

The UN was created after World War II to promote peace and international understanding. But over the years, and today more than ever, the UN has failed in it's mission. It has failed to address the most dangerous threats facing the civilized world, refused to condemn terrorist acts, encouraged America's enemies, and supported some of the world's most oppressive governments, all while wasting billions of dollars.

Check this out

Pedro Sanjuan's The UN Gang unflinchingly details, anti-Semitism lies at the very foundation of today's United Nations, the same body that in its day accepted Lemkin's definition of genocide.

The UN Secretariat, Sanjuan says, harbors a deep obsession with anti-Semitism, and a vocal ideological opposition to both Zionism and the State of Israel. Over the years, Arab foes of both have capitalized upon these neuroses, using the UN as a vehicle to sway Western "hearts and minds" by depicting Zionism in the same manner as other fashionable enemies, such as communism and fascism. The institutionalization of this trend took place on November 10, 1975, when the UN General Assembly, by a wide margin, adopted a resolution declaring Zionism to be a form of racism.

The eminent scholar Bernard Lewis has explained that, in the eyes of Islamic radicals such as the Muslim Brotherhood, Jews are all defined as "genetically and ontologically evil." Essentially the same categorical imperative drives much of the UN's thinking when it comes to Israel.

Not surprisingly, the Palestinian agenda—and sympathy for the Palestinian cause—has infiltrated every aperture of the buildings at Turtle Bay. It has engendered Arab and Western support for the delegitimation of Israel, and facilitated comparisons between Nazism and Zionism—a false linkage that bolsters Palestinian claims of oppression. Secretary General Kofi Annan's recent appearance at a UN Palestine Day event which astonishingly featured a map of the Middle East that conspicuously omitted Israel is emblematic of the way in which the UN has transformed itself into a propaganda machine for such thinking.

This rot has penetrated into the UN's specialized agencies, such as the United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA). A unique institution with no parallel in the UN system, UNRWA is dedicated solely to providing assistance to Palestinian refugees. Terrorism does not exclude one from being a part of UNRWA. In fact, quite the opposite is true; UNRWA-overseen hospitals and clinics routinely employ members of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

Israel dominates not only discussions of the Middle East, but also unconnected matters. Within the corridors of the UN, Sanjuan tells us, Israel is widely viewed as the most delinquent nation when it comes to human rights, well ahead of China, Sudan or North Korea. Indeed, the comparison of Israel to Nazi Germany and apartheid South Africa is taken as a "fact." Israelis in the global arena are called brutal, racist and genocidal.

The UN's deformities are certainly not confined to anti-Semitism. Sanjuan chronicles that for many UN delegates, diplomatic immunity has become synonymous with fraudulent and scandalous behavior—conduct which does not have any consequences whatsoever. This status has allowed them to spread anti-American, anti-Semitic and jihadist rhetoric right here in America.

All of this has been greeted by profound disinterest, if not active support, from the UN bureaucracy. Sanjuan recounts the reactions of then-Secretary General Javier Perez de Cuellar when faced with news of jihadist meetings in the Delegates Lounge: "but that is a private social club, so to speak. Anyone has a right to meet there and talk about any subject. Even Nazis can meet there for all I care."

There is perhaps no better example of the deep, systemic deformities plaguing the UN than the recent acrimonious battle over the selection of John Bolton as U.S. envoy—a political tug-of-war that closely mirrored the choice of Jeane Kirkpatrick for the same post in 1981. Those who opposed Bolton's and Kirkpatrick's nominations objected in no small part to the manner in which they dealt with the anti-Semitic and anti-American rhetoric, or with the terrorist ties that many UN member states brandish openly.

President Woodrow Wilson's vision for the League of Nations as a forum of cooperation between nations was based upon the promotion of democratic and free market values. Instead, the UN has turned into a major repository of the disease called anti-Semitism. And, instead of looking for a cure, UN members are actively looking for ways of spreading this epidemic. Perhaps if more people read Sanjuan's scathing critique, the world will have a better chance of transforming the UN into an international body that is actually representative of the totality of the global community.

More here

I have given out a record number of gold stars today. Excellent thread.

Alexander W (53)
Tuesday October 16, 2012, 10:41 am
Tom Edgar, when Jews will be forced to leave US like they are forced now to leave Norway, people like me and you will also be willing to go somewhere else. Jews leave Norway because Norway's left adopted an Islamic stance and obedience to demands by Islamist toward changes of Norway culture as a form of "sensitivity".

This is a horrible surrender of the country's culture to the invasion of intolerant barbarians.

To add to a quote of your father: a Jew will not plot to behead the Prime Minister of the country where he was born, will not severe head of his wife for her desire to divorce him and will not impose his religious beliefs on others. I would be interesting to know what would you father said about Arab and Islamic immigration, bringing up all of their old ideologies into new and prosperous countries.

Lydia S (71)
Tuesday October 16, 2012, 10:55 am
@ Parvez Zuberi who wrote: "JEWS are cursed they will never live in peace and no one is to be blamed but they them self"

I find it laughable, that you come from Karachi, Pakistan -- a volatile region so infused with hatred, terrorism, oppression, and violence -- and you can make such a RIDICULOUS statement.

Google Karachi Pakistan violence ... here's what you get ... About 3,660,000 results (0.35 seconds)

Replace the word "Jews" -- with "Muslims", and your statement will make sense ... Everywhere islam rears it's ugly head, we have violence, terror, acid burning, child marriages, abuse of women, children, animals; the most incredible, terrifying cruelty!

Human Rights violations of such magnitude, that NO GROUP is guilty of so many violations on such a huge scale! There is NO PEACE, only beheadings, amputations, rape! -- in Pakistan, gang rape is the weapon of choice against women -- often for some "crime" committeed by a male relative! Christian girls are kidnapped, raped and forced to convert to islam! A girl reporting a rape to police, can expect to get more of the same BY THE POLICE at the Police Station!

Do a Google search of Pakistan Police Rape ... here's what you get ... About 19,400,000 results (0.45 seconds)

CLEAN UP YOUR COUNTRY, YOUR PEOPLE, YOUR "religion" -- and maybe, you can hold your head up & feel you've accomplished something! FOURTEEN HUNDRED YEARS OF BARBARIC OPPRESSION! It is time for a REFORMATION!

Gillian M (218)
Tuesday October 16, 2012, 11:11 am
Terrance, Palestinians do live in peace in Israel, some 1.5 million of them. Jews, and Christians, are not allowed to live in Muslim controlled lands either in Israel or any other country around the Middle East (20,000 Jews in Iran) where they have been chased out, some 1 million refugees with no right of return. The Christians in Muslim controlled lands are killed, abused, raped and tortured. Yes, there are some madmen in Israel who will do stupid things but that goes against Jewish law and is not acceptable behaviour. When caught, they will be punished by the Israeli courts. Not so in Muslim controlled lands, non-Muslims have no rights.

The difference between the Islamic books and Judeo/Christian bibles are that the rules are for peace and getting on with each other, the original violence is no longer accepted. The 9/11 violence should indicate that extreme Muslims intend to follow the hatred and abhorrent abuses perpetrated by Mohammed against the people of the time and the laws that he laid down to follow. Mohammed was a paedophile under any definition, he had sex with his dead aunt making him a necrophiliac, he took what he wanted when he wanted it including his daughter-in-law. He killed a tribe of Jews who had approached in peace and raped a 17 year old girl whose husband had only just been killed and he swapped slave girls around like kids do with their latest fashion, he was sex mad! I could continue but you really aren't interested in the truth.

Now the Muslims are running Jews out of Norway where they had been welcomed and have lived in peace. The police do not point them out as the major source of violent crimes such as rape but they have stated that Muslims are responsible for almost all of them. Perhaps you would like to talk about that and condemn the Muslims for doing so and the government for allowing it?

Henrik Thorsen (31)
Tuesday October 16, 2012, 1:15 pm
It's truly a disgrace! Unfortunately, Breivik's terrorist attack hasn't made it any easier for good people to discuss the problems that come with mass immigration from islamic countries.

Tuesday October 16, 2012, 1:27 pm
The pogroms I have heard about against the Jews have involved European countries particularly Germany, Poland, Russia, Yugoslavia, etc,. I have not seen proof of equivalent pogrom against Jews in Arab controlled countries. This is not to say that it doesn't exist. If the pogroms is on the scale of Europe, why have there been UN lawsuits against say Germany and Russia but none against Saudi Arabia and Iran. These are oil rich nations who can afford to pay reparations just like Germany.

What I do see is Jewish immigration resulting in mass Palestinian refugees and theft of Palestinian land. Why has the voice of persecution been so loud on the Palestinian side and not of persecution against Jews by Arab. The Palestinian don't have the resources on their own to export so much propaganda of them being persecuted. Just like the Africans in Southern Africa didn't possess the resources to export false propaganda. The difference is that the larger humanity senses when a grievous wrong is being committed. This sense of a wrong being committed was also the case in the Jewish holocaust.

Your hatred for the Palestinians who want a state of their own, who want equal rights under the law, doesn't make sense in the overall context of things. Give me proof of pogroms committed by Arabs against the Jews similar to pogroms committed by the European countries I just mentioned. I'm not suggesting that you should hate or retaliate against the Europeans either because retaliation obviously only bring more retaliation. Everyone though have a right to defend themselves.

What more does the state of Israel want? You have practically insured that there will be no Palestinian state,. You have the Gaza and West bank locked down like open air prisons, you have militarily disallowed the most vital resources to reach the inhabitants, and lastly you have politically maneuvered the most militarily powerful country on earth, the United States, to basically do your bidding? On the other hand you have isolated yourself from Muslim/Arab countries like Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iraq, Turkey, Iran, etc,. You have no friends in the area. These countries and others are waiting for a momentary lapse on Israel's part so they can ponce on you at once. Is this how Israel want to live? The alternative is to give equal rights to the Palestinians whether it is in a one state or two state arrangement.

Gillian M (218)
Tuesday October 16, 2012, 1:54 pm
Terrance, who mentioned progroms? It is a shame that you should be so disinterested in all things Jewish & Israeli to not know that the issue of Jewish refugees has always been part of the negotiations between Israel and Arafat and now Abbas. It is your ignorance not any false claim. As for lawsuits on behalf of Jews deprived of all by Arabs, which universe are you in? Sue an Arab country on behalf of Jews? My, you do have a sense of humour.

As for immigration, let me see, Jews thrown out of the Middle East, Jews advised to leave their country of birth because they cannot be protected from Muslims and Norway is just such an example.

As for the Palestinians, why do people, like you, always blame Israel? Do you ever read the news? Any land given to the Arabs immediately resulted in an increase of suicide bombers. Now, if your children were deliberately being targeted what would you do remembering your country is a grain of sand compared to those surround it? What do you do about a fake people who never existed? (See above which you obviously didn't read.) What do you do about terrorist groups who send dozens of rockets into your land every day? Israel has never wanted to live like that but it has been forced to by wars forced onto it, or don't you know about them.

Then, if you want to help the Palestinians, why don't you attack Syria for taking their land or Jordan? Why don't you condemn the Muslim controlled countries for refusing to allow the Palestinian "refugees" the legal right to citizenship in the countries in which they have been born for 4 or 5 generations? Why is Israel always the baddy? Why are you failing to condemn Abbas for refusing to negotiate? He says one thing in English so that mugs like yourself believe it is Israel's fault and a few days later repudiates it in Arabic and says that he will destroy Israel. That the Palestinian children are taught to hate. Nor do you condemn war crimes where children are taken to camps and taught to kill Israelis.

And why are you attacking Israel and refugee Jews as if it is their fault that Muslims are attacking them in Norway? Why are you not blaming Muslims for failing to integrate into the countries in which they have chosen to live? Why are you not blaming them for violent crimes? Why are you not blaming them for rampant anti-Semitism and attacking Jews? And why do I have to write this continually? Why do you not read yourself, you and all the others who come up with this garbage?

Tom Edgar (56)
Tuesday October 16, 2012, 3:28 pm
Bob Algeron...Oh No The Jew doesn't behead dissenters, or deserters from their faith. But they certainly murdered many British in the Hotel King David, and Americans on the U S S Liberty for purely political and ideological purposes.

You nit picked and distorted from my offering and ignored the rest for which you had no answer.

Nowhere did I even mention Norway nor the Jewish exodus, nor the unwanted and undesirable entry of a religious group who , as I said, are hell bent on bringing with them the baggage from which they flee. My own country is seeing glimpses of the obnoxious aspects of various cultural and religious differences that these ignorant people want to see imposed on our way of life.

But view it from the perspective of the original aborigines of Australia and the Americas. That is exactly what the Immigrants from Christian Europe did to them. Whilst the ignorance of people insist in believing in non
existent Gods with the power to impose man made laws attributed to those imaginary beings, we will forever be at odds with each other. Oh and it was my Father's side of the family with Jewish heritage, albeit pretty secular. My Mother's was pure Rom. I never claim to be perfect. Just enlightened.

Rosie Lopez (73)
Tuesday October 16, 2012, 3:40 pm
boy oh boy! thanks for sharing gillian!!!

louise Woychesko (1)
Tuesday October 16, 2012, 3:42 pm
It never ends does it? Sad comment on Norway.

Joanne Dixon (38)
Tuesday October 16, 2012, 4:17 pm
"Oh, the white folks hate the black folks,
And the black folks hate the white folks,
And the Hindus hate the Moslems,
And EVERYBODY hates the Jews!" (Tom Lehrer)

Who are these people whom EVERYBODY hates? Are they really so terrible? I don't see it myself. Sure, there are bad actions among them, as there are in every group. But also a lot of good. Ignatz Semmelweis. Albert Einstein. Elie Wiesel. Isaac Bashevis Singer. Felix Frankfurter. Noam Chomsky. Nobel prize winners in every field.

It's almost enough to make one believe that they really are God's chosen - and that everyone else is envious.

Gillian M (218)
Tuesday October 16, 2012, 4:28 pm
Tom, the Jews were being abused by the English before the handover hence the bomb by an extremist group that we don't necessarily agree with. You've mentioned it several times, like your family background, and? now shut up and move on and mention what the British did.

The British didn't like upsetting the Arabs so they machine gunned the Jews who were trying to enter Palestine. Then the British Navy attacked the Exodus

July 18 1947, in international waters, some 20 nautical miles off the coast of Gaza, during the dark of the night, the British attacked the defenseless ship. British destroyers repeatedly rammed the ageing Chesapeake Bay Steam Packet. British boarding parties were thrown across on gangplanks. Machinegun fire filled the air. British Marines attacked with guns, stun grenades, bludgeons. The Jews fought back for four hours throwing canned food goods at the attackers, fighting with their fists, throwing attackers into the sea. Failing to gain control of the proudly renamed ship, the Exodus-47, the destroyers rammed her again and again. Below decks the terrified refugees heard the horrific clanging crashes of the British destroyers, from either side, smashing their old boat. The steel hull of the Exodus began to weaken and threatened to give way. Commander Yossi Harel agreed to surrender the ship. The fight was over. One crew member, 1st mate William Bernstein, a U.S. sailor from San Francisco, died. He was bludgeoned to death in the wheelhouse. Two young refugee passengers were murdered; one was shot in the head. A 15 year boy, the last survivor of the Yakubowitz family from the Holocaust, was shot in the stomach and killed. At least 150 refugees and crew members were injured, many severely. The fight was over. The Exodus, under its own power still, limped into Haifa. The British warships followed closely. The refugees were taken to GERMANY!! The world condemned Britain. One of the worst things was that no JEW was believed, the accepted evidence came from Rev. John Stanley Grauel!!

The British also ran a concentration camp in Cyprus.

Then we have the SS Struma

The SS Struma was a ship chartered to carry Jewish refugees from Axis-allied Romania to British-controlled Palestine during World War II. The engine gave out several times after the Struma set sail from Constanţa, on the Black Sea on 12 December 1941 and it was towed to Istanbul on 15 December 1941. On February 23, 1942, with its engine inoperable and its refugee passengers aboard, Turkish authorities towed the ship from Istanbul harbor through the Bosphorus out to the coast of Şile in North Istanbul. Within hours, in the morning of February 24, it was torpedoed and sunk by the Soviet submarine Shch 213, killing 768 men, women and children, with only one survivor, a 19 year old man, making it the largest exclusively civilian naval disaster of the war in the Black Sea.

Tom, none of this has anything to do with Norway. Why are you unable or incapable of talking about the subject? Can you make a relevant comment without mentioning the King David Hotel or your background, in which none of us have any interest?


Talya H (10)
Tuesday October 16, 2012, 4:48 pm
Sigh, forever being chased out of countries, yet we survive and we live on...clearly we arent going anywhere.

Barbara W (342)
Tuesday October 16, 2012, 5:51 pm
Noam Chomsky denied entry to Israel

Noam Chomsky denied entry to the West Bank, by Israel, 5/15/2010

Barbara W (342)
Tuesday October 16, 2012, 5:54 pm
Jews against Zionism: The Hidden Protest
Massive Media Cover-up

Barbara W (342)
Tuesday October 16, 2012, 6:00 pm

The Jewish-Muslim Community Building Initiative

pam w (139)
Tuesday October 16, 2012, 6:03 pm
The UN may be "a joke," but it's the first step toward focusing world attention on this problem!

I'm glad to see this piece is still being noted here at Care2.

Tuesday October 16, 2012, 6:32 pm
Gillian, it's obvious that you hatred of anyone who don't agreed you and your narrow Zionist views are driving you somewhat insane. Have you actually read your own post? You are so mentally fixated on everything being done to the Jews that you imagine that there are Jewish refugee's from Israel. Who are these imagined Jewish refugee's from Israel and where is your proof that Jewish refugee's was a discussion point in the negotiations?

It's not about being only concerned with Palestinian oppression, Black oppression, Arab oppression, etc,. Any kinds of oppression is wrong and we are as human beings should be concerned about oppression and discrimination regardless of race.

So you want Israel to be able to run the Palestinians from their land and absolve Israel of the responsibility by having the Arabs grant them citizenship. If someone ran you from your native land, familly, and culture wouldn't you want to be able to return?

Of cause I'm concerned about Jews being ran out of Norway. My point is that it's bigoted ideologies worldwide that is causing refugee's in general. Do you think that calling the Prophet Muhammad a pedophile and saying he involved in having sex with dead bodies is going to solve refugee problems in general? The only thing your comments will do is possibly get a death threat on yourself. Which would be unwise on your part as well as the ones who threaten you. In the first paragraph of my first post I make reference to bigoted "so called Muslims".

It's my opinion that anyone who participates in violence, oppression, discrimination, and war crimes I don't consider them Christians, Jews, or Muslim. I don't care what you call yourself, what you wear on your head, or what your is. Your actions determine who you are. And I have had the pleasure of meeting very upstanding, and peaceful individuals of all faiths.

Lydia Mcintyre (47)
Tuesday October 16, 2012, 7:55 pm
How sad to read about this. It sounds like we're living in the past.
There's so much uneeded hatred towards others in this world.

Gillian M (218)
Tuesday October 16, 2012, 9:51 pm
Tom, it is standard that when someone is unable to respond and/or find that they have had lucid rebuttals that they accuse the writer of hatred. If you bothered to read what I had written or, better yet, understood it, you would not be making asinine comments. Israel is always blamed for the Palestinian problem but other countries also have a duty yet they totally ignore and ill treat the Palestinians living in their countries as well as breaking international law. Do those not have rights? Is Israel expected to take them in as well ? Is Israel not allowed to protect itself or its people from attacks? Do you know how much Israel helps people in Gaza whilst Hamas ill treats them so badly that it is reported? In fact, I have uploaded many stories on how Hamas uses the Gazans as human shields and many other human rights issues but no-one is interested in that. I have often uploaded stories on human rights abuses in the Middle East, petitions, written to officials to help save a child being hung and asked people on care2 to sign them - maybe 6 people will note the story and 2 will sign. What does that say about people like you, shouting out that people suffer but not being interested enough to do anything about it except blame Israel? Israel has done and continues to do many great humanitarian acts abroad, do you know or care about them? That does include Muslim controlled countries by the way.

"Do you think that calling the Prophet Muhammad a pedophile and saying he involved in having sex with dead bodies is going to solve refugee problems in general? The only thing your comments will do is possibly get a death threat on yourself." Thank you for being concerned and this shows how vile Islam is and that you are aware of it is a step forward. This is the truth yet the extremists ignore the part where Mohammed says that they should support Jews living in Israel and choose to destroy it instead.

By the way, you talk about the right of return which I have already said the the Jews have been denied and they genuinely lived in countries such as Libya, Iraq and Egypt. There are already 1.5 million Palestinians living there, there is no way that Israel could, or even should, accept people whose families have never lived there. It is a Jewish country, which is something that the Muslims refuse to accept, and they have trouble absorbing Jews in need from other countries. Muslims need to own the problems that they created in 1948. They should also accept those that were born in their countries who have no rights, are ill treated and who want the right to live and work in the country of their birth. By the way, I note that you don't mention Kuwait who forced out virtually all of the Palestinians living in their country. As I said, try reading.

"And I have had the pleasure of meeting very upstanding, and peaceful individuals of all faiths." Good for you, so have I and? What has that to do with the attacks against Jews in Norway, the rest of Europe, America etc?

For the final time, this is a story about Norway yet everyone always turns an anti-Semitc article into a rant against Israel and/or Zionists.

In Germany they first came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Socialists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me —
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

Stephen Brian (23)
Tuesday October 16, 2012, 10:26 pm
Hi Terrance,

You mentioned earlier that it's one side against the other, but about moderates against extremists. What do you think a liberal extremist looks like? How do you think a liberal extremist thinks, and what do you think one does?

Stephen Brian (23)
Tuesday October 16, 2012, 10:37 pm
Hi Pam,

You asked where the U.N. is in this. The U.N. is right there, actively directing attention away from the problem. The trouble is that, as it claims to be the primary body of international cooperation, it has taken up the space at the top. Another major transnational human rights organization can't really arise a long as the UNHRC is there, unless it is another U.N. body with overlapping purposes. Even if the U.N. just did nothing, by its nature it would stop any other attempts to address the problem.

The U.N., however, is active on this issue: It constantly condemns Israel, lending whatever credibility it has to fixations like Terrence's and Barbara's, and for some reason Europeans believe the U.N. to be some great moral authority. That shouldn't really have any effect, but then we saw the former PM try to deflect attention way from antisemitism in Norway by pointing at Israel because he shares that fixation and he conflates antisemitism with critique of Israel even more than he accuses his opponents of doing.

The U.N. might be a joke in this regard, but it's not funny.

Jay S (116)
Wednesday October 17, 2012, 12:51 am
Terence, you happily condemn 'Zionism' and Israel and point out every bad thing they've done and then turn around and defend an ideology that has more hate verses in its holy texts against Jews than Hitler's 'Mein Kampf'. The Gazan Islamist Hamas tyrants torture and imprison gay people who are treated with respect in Israel. They persecute Christians and non-Sunnis. Many of these victims of the Palestinians have fled into tolerant, free Israel where even Muslims have freedom of religion. You are seriously twisted. You have been drinking the Islamic Kool Aid for far too long. Muslims have been lying about their kindness to non-Muslims for so long too many in the West actually believe it, despite all evidence to the contrary.

There are too many verses in Islamic texts to give showing hatred to the Jews and others but here's one of the most beloved. Just ask Parvez, the Muslim:

Bukhari:V4B52N177 "Allah's Apostle said, 'The Hour will not be established until you fight
with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say.
"O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."'"
(A poll sponsored by the Israel Project found that 73 percent of Palestinian Arabs “believe” this Hadith, according to the findings of a July 2011 study by Greenberg Quinlan Rosner)

Where is your outrage over the hate teachings of Islam against all non-Muslims? No other religion has religious texts that preach hate against other religions, especially by name, only Islam. There isn't a Muslim-occupied country that has true religious freedom. Islam/Allah don't allow such a thing. No religion can ever be treated as equal to glorious Islam.

You forget, along with all the brainwashed Muslims, that Muslims invaded, conquered and ruled Jerusalem for centuries, helping the spark the Crusades when they were attacking and killing Christian Pilgrims going there. The Muslims also destroyed the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, a very sacred place for Christians. The only time Islam allows 'peace and tolerance' toward any non-Muslim is when these peoples submit to Islamic law and accept their inferiority. Where is your outrage over the Muslim conquest and occupation of the Jews' holy city? Silence.

Islamic forces destroyed an estimated 30,000 churches, killed and enslaved their conquered victims. Will Durant, a noted historian, says the Muslim conquest of India is the most bloody in history with 80million non-Muslims slaughtered. Buddhism was virtually destroyed in its birthplace and all its shrines, along with other religions, were destroyed. It is estimated that Islam has killed 270million people since Mohammed began murdering Jews and those who refused to accept him in Medina. He had 900 Jewish men/boys beheaded in the marketplace while he laughed and divided up their wealth, then raping their wives and taking them as sex slaves or other 'wives', then selling the rest off into slavery. Yeah, he was a real nice guy.

How can you, who pretend to care so much about human rights - but apparently only Muslims and Palestinians - be so appeasing about Mohammed, the most hateful, cruel, massmurdering tyrant to ever live? Islam's own trilogy say clearly and unashamedly that he 'married' and had sex with a 6 y/o child, raped captive women and took sex slaves, he had a harem of wives, robben passing caravans and neighboring tribes, broke treaties, had hundreds murdered etc. It's all in their own scriptures. Why the big fuss when someone quotes them? If Muslims are so ashamed of their 'perfect man's' debauchery and cruetly, then burn your own books.

This is why Muslims want to silence all criticism and questioning of islam. It cannot stand up to the light being shown on it. This silencing is what has let islam survive. if Muslims knew what their own holy books really taught there would be a mass defection (which, actually is happening in many places now).

Wednesday October 17, 2012, 5:22 am
I must give Parvez Zuberi 10/ 10 for personal honesty if not for his opinions. He says, “JEWS are cursed they will never live in peace and no one is to be blamed but they them self”. Parvez does not tell us much about himself but given his name and his country and his opinions I would guess that his religion is Islam. Anyone taking a bit of time to read the instruction manual for this ideology will learn that early in the history of Islam, Jews were seen as the main competition and freely massacred by Mohammed’s gang. People who are non-Muslim and friends of Parvez might just take some time out to read the Koran and note that the attitude of Mohammed towards Christians and all other non-believers was very much the same as towards the Jews and therefore does not involve a whole lot of trust, compassion, friendship and harmony. Parvez will deny this because his religion permits any lies to be told to non-believers in defence of his faith – a sort of “get out of jail free card”.

Charlene Rush (79)
Wednesday October 17, 2012, 10:48 am
AND.......this is something about which to be proud?

The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Norway is the state church, with the majority of citizens as members, but not practiced actively, by most.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but did the Lutheran Church recently check out of Christianity?
Do they not recall, that Christ was a Jew? Have they forgotten Christ's teachings?

These so-called religious people have very short memories.

M B (62)
Wednesday October 17, 2012, 12:06 pm
This reminds me of Antwerp / Europe. Many Jews are busy in the Diamond sector. Once they were asked to allow to check their tax situation, they were offended and shouting that they would leave (!) if they had to pay more taxes. Only the Jewish were shouting "Gestapo" to the police, not the Russians, nor the Indians. Where ever in the world, if one dares to criticize some people, they begin to shout very loud...They come up with "Anti - semitism" and "Holocaust". In the end no one left Antwerp.
In New Yorck live the double amount of people than in Norway, in my view that means : that 800 people who threatened to leave the country, doesn't mean anything.

Barbara W (342)
Wednesday October 17, 2012, 2:03 pm
Important related info: Rabbinical Support for the End of Unconditional Military Aid to


The Jewish-Muslim Community Building Initiative

Nancy L (141)
Wednesday October 17, 2012, 3:13 pm
Thank you Stephen, obviously Pam did not bother to read my post before she commented.

Wednesday October 17, 2012, 3:30 pm
Rob and Jay B, Islam is not an ideology it is a religion. I'm not a religious person but I defend every ones right to their spiritual beliefs be it Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, etc,. As far as governments go, I am not in favor in most government. Most government exploit, abuse, and take advantage of their people. I criticize Israel in particular and my own government, the USA, because I am more familiar with their practices.

Zionism might have served Israel in the beginning in establishing the state of Israel for the Jews. I too at one time was glad to see the creation of Israel. But the more I have learned how Israel achieved it's statehood at the expense of the Palestinians the more I became critical of Israel.

At one time Jim Crow segregation served our nation in building up the USA through slavery. But later on this ideology was questioned as more and more people began to realize that the brutality suffered by the Africans was inhumane. Nazism, served the Germany people well as Germany was about to conquer half of Europe until they overstretched themselves and was defeated in Russia and North Africa. There was a worldwide revolt when people began to pay attention to what Hitler was trying to accomplish.

Zionist Israel finds itself in a similar situation. Zionism has served its purpose. Now Zionism is becoming the worst friend Jews worldwide could have. As a result there is beginning to be backlash from many parts of the world. The backlash isn't much different to what happened to ideologies like Jim crow segregation, Aparthied in South Africa, Nazism, and now Zionism.

As far as references to the Jews in the Koran; The most derogatory item I came across when I looked in the index under Jews was a passage in Surah 5: Al Maidah 82 that states "Strongest among men in enmity To the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans;and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say we are christians". In other words the Koran avocates friendship with Christians instead of with Jews. I not a religious person and I don't agree with this. But I have seen any verse calling for stoning Jews or killing anyone. If you find any let me know.

This world has been at war since the beginning of time. Groups labeling themselves various names have conquered, enslaved, raped, occupied, and stolen land. All of them called themselves Mluslim, Jews, Christian, Buddhist, etc,.Do it help to continually live in the past. There are so-called Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, and Jewish nations who possess nuclear weapons to destroy entire populations. This to me is rank hypocrisy.

Finally to Gilliam; "What does this have to do with the attacks on Jews". As much as we might like to none of us have the capacity to prevent every individual attack against every single Arab, Jew, or Black, or White. What we can do however is do what Barbara W. is doing. Which is courageously trying to highlight instances of common ground to resolve conflict. Gillian, Your rhetoric help fan flames of hate and cause more violence. It good that you expose the situation in Norway but to call someone billions of people advice and love those kinds of names defeats your purpose of preventing violence agaisnt Jews.

Gillian M (218)
Wednesday October 17, 2012, 3:44 pm
Terrance, you are still not reading anything I am writing are you? Islam is not a religion in the way that Judaism or Christianity is. It is more of a cult which was started by a pervert. You clearly have no understanding of the "religion" or the hatred perpetrated by extremists. Try this for Honest Muslims

As for the rest of what you are saying, it is gibberish. Try this from the Koran, it was a selection that I picked at random.

The Quran makes it clear that Islam is not about universal brotherhood, but about the brotherhood of believers:

The Believers are but a single Brotherhood (49:10)

Not all men are equal under Islam. Slaves and the handicapped are not equal to healthy free men, for example (16:75-76). The Quran introduces the “Law of Equality,” which establishes different levels of human value when considering certain matters, such as restitution for murder (2:178).

Neither are Muslim believers equal to non-Muslims:

Are those who know equal to those who know not? (39:09)

Is the blind equal to the one who sees" Or darkness equal to light? (13:16)

The Quran plainly tells Muslims that they are a favored race, while those of other religions are “perverted transgressors”:

Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book [Christians and Jews] had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors. (3:110)


Gillian M (218)
Wednesday October 17, 2012, 3:49 pm
As for Barbara W, she picks out anti-Israel and anti-Semitic comments and articles and tries to present them as them as the answer. Of course many Jews think that by kowtowing and condemning Israel may make them safer by distancing themselves from what is happening. It didn't work in Russia or Germany.

Wednesday October 17, 2012, 3:50 pm
Hi Brian, I would like to respond to you but I honestly don't understand your question of what a liberal extremist thinks or look like? Are sure you are referring to my post?

Lynn Geth (185)
Wednesday October 17, 2012, 4:18 pm
Some of you people are spouting anti-semitic remarks and those who are, apparently haven't read the article through. I'm proud to be a Jew and proud of Israel and I'm ashamed to be associated with people like Barbara W. who is such an anti-semite that it's creeping out of her pores!

Wednesday October 17, 2012, 6:17 pm
It's easy to call someone anti-semitic just because they defer from you on how to solve human problems. Your response to the issue at hand is shallow, reactionary, and adds nothing to the discussion. So, go bake some cookies or educate yourself with the issues.

Stephen Brian (23)
Wednesday October 17, 2012, 8:54 pm
Hi Terrance,

Sorry I spelled your name wrong earlier. (The same thing bugs me because when looking for people's responses to my posts, I do a word-search and can miss them if my name is misspelled.)

I was referring to this line: "The problem is the extreme Ideologies". I agree with you very much in that regard. I think I can see a cause for confusion: I don't think it's ideologies themselves that are extreme, but a matter of ordinary, sane ideologies taken to extremes.

Here's are some examples: When you mix the desire to relive oppression, the desire to build a utopia, and the desire to advance human scientific understanding, you normally don't get anything dangerous. In fact you often just get very good people. However, if those goals, and the ideologies behind them, are taken to extremes in specific ways, you get Nazis. If they are taken to extremes in other ways, you can get other groups which are arguably just as dangerous. If you mix the beliefs that people are ultimately responsible for their own actions, that the culture in which they are raised has a major influence on their values and behaviour, that the primary factor in the quality of a society is how people treat each other, and the desire to make a better society, you generally get someone who recognizes some facts of life and wants to make the world a better place. If taken to extremes, you usually get religious intolerance,

What do you think are the tenets of liberalism, and what happens if you take them too far? I have my own theory on the matter, but I want to see the viewpoint of someone who, I believe, has done so without realizing it.

Stephen Brian (23)
Wednesday October 17, 2012, 10:25 pm
Hi again Terrence,

Nazism did not serve Germans well at any time. Fascism certainly did, and arguably still does them and us in some form today, as the foundation underlying functional democracy. Nazism, the aspect of Nazi ideology which differed from classical fascism, was only ever destructive towards them. Also, the Nazis were not defeated by some revolt by those who realized what they were doing. They were defeated by countries which they and their declared allies attacked, and could not defeat.

Racism never helped the U.S. Slavery did not either. Poor working conditions are a necessity of labour-based economies which lack the wealth to provide better conditions universally and the technology to mechanize and move away from a foundation of hard unskilled labour, but de jure slavery as practised in the U.S. was not beneficial.

Zionism, using the definition which its opponents tend to use, never really served Israel. Zionism, using the definition which the vast majority of self-identifying Zionists use, was and still is good.

I don't think you've really "learned more" about Israel's cost to Palestinians. I think you've been fed more propaganda. Look at the ratio of female-to-male participation in the Palestinian labour-force in the territories.
That low participation of women in public life is not, as far as I know, something Israel could do to Palestinians. It amounts to waste of a whole lot of Palestinian potentially productive workers, and impoverishes them all. I know they have high unemployment so arguably the jobs would only go to one worker or another (though I believe that a larger labour-force generally translates into a larger economy), but the real problem is the underlying cultural issues which cause this imbalance. Comparing their female labour-force participation, 0.24 to that of the U.S., 0.81, you can see the problem. Then there is the domestic abuse-rate, which the PA tried to blame on stress caused by Israel: Combining the two, and some other very common aspects of Arab culture, there would be abuse in Palestinian homes with or without Israel. Then there is the trouble corruption among their leaders, something Israel tried and tries to oppose. Is Israel somehow supposed to be responsible for PA-embezzlement too, political corruption, and other such issues too? Really? Finally, look at Palestinian development since 1967 and compare it to that of other Arabs in the area. They're doing better in a lot of ways, and that would make absolutely no sense if Israel were their problem.

Stephen Brian (23)
Thursday October 18, 2012, 1:25 am
Oops! Sorry again, Terrance.

I keep spelling your name with an "e" instead of an "a". I think I'll just start copying and pasting names in my posts.

Thursday October 18, 2012, 7:40 am
Brian, I think we can safely say that ideologies can be extreme on face value for example Nazism, Apartheid, and Jim Crow segregation. Then there are ideologies that isn't extreme on face value but can become extreme. I would put in this category Zionism, conservatism, and liberalism.

When I say that Nazism and slavery served a society, i am in not means justifying or agreeing with the ideology or actions stemming for the ideology. Quite a f ew people believed in these ideologies and thought there were certain benefits. But eventually these ideologies failed either because they were bad to start off with or they were taken to extremes.

My contention is that the reason you have innocent Jewish people in Norway becoming victims of discrimination stem from Zionism taken to extreme particularly in Israel. Since the Jewish have achieved a homeland back in 1948 why the need to continually deny Palestinians a homeland, occupy Palestinian land, and basically discriminate against the Palestinians? Killing 1,400 mainly civilian Palestinians in Gaza is the end results of an ideology taken to extreme.

I notice you make the statement, " using the definition which the vast majority of self identifying Zionist use, Zionism was and still is good". Was your use of the word was a slip or do you agree that Zionism has served it';s purpose? Are you a Zionism Brian and why?

We are all fed propaganda coming from all sides. I try my best to lesson to all views and come to a rational conclusion,. You can compare Palestinian corruption to that of any other cultural group who are occupied and controlled from the outside. The Palestinian behavior is not that much different from the bahavior of Black Americans living in a ghetto, Jews living in a ghetto, or Africans under Aparthied. Don't expect to many angels to come out of these environments. The key word is survival by any means necessary.

Israel can afford to give up Zionism for the sake of innocent Jews worldwide, the Palestinians who suffer most from it's extremes, and we here in America who have to fight wars instigated by Zionism. If Netanyahu or whoever is in power doesn't put an end to this extreme ideology, then we most likely will have to settle for a possible third world war and innocent people becoming unnecessary victims.

Gillian M (218)
Thursday October 18, 2012, 9:12 am
Terrance, I note that you are still using personal insults when you disagree with someone, your attack on Lynn Geth is unacceptable and you owe her an apology.

I also note that when presented with uncontroversial evidence that you don't like you ignore it and change the subject. The subject is still the appalling anti-Semtism in Norway and which is spreading. Saying that Zionism is the cause is not an answer, it is an excuse. The true meaning of Zionism is one who wishes to go to Israel to live, nothing more. It is now used as those who support Israel at the expense of...... (fill in the gap). It is not. The survival of Israel is of importance to all regardless of religion. It is a bastion of democracy and humanity in a very large sea of countries who regularly commit human rights abuses against their own people, Palestinians and non-Muslims. Yes, every government will make mistakes or have people who perform actions that others disagree with. At least in Israel they will support the victims legally regardless of racial origin.

What you appear to be missing out on all the way through is that anti-Semitism is spreading world wide (it was always there) but increasing in tempo. This is caused by Muslim propaganda and I see much of it in your unnecessary and vitriolic attacks on people as well as non-thought through drivel that you keep producing. Your final paragraph about warmongering Zionists and innocent Jews suffering from Israel's need to protect itself from attack is an example. Israel has the legal right to protect itself but Muslims do not want to be in the wrong so blame Israel and people, such as yourself, jump on the bandwagon. Israel has the right to exist as do Jews and not just because of their history. America has a duty towards Israel as an ally and not to drop Israel in the muck as Obama is doing deliberately. Also remember that Israel did not fly any planes into any building in New York but was there immediately as a country with a massive amount of experience in digging out survivors of bombed buildings. What Israel did and still does is provide essential intelligence to help protect your and yours. Israelis also provide an immense amount of scientific and medical research that you are currently benefiting from.


Lydia S (71)
Thursday October 18, 2012, 10:57 am
@ Terrance N who wrote: "Hi Brian, I would like to respond to you but I honestly don't understand your question of what a liberal extremist thinks or look like? Are sure you are referring to my post?"

RE: Liberal Extremist -- You might find some clues here ...
And here:

A review of the book, in The Middle East Quarterly:

An interesting read!

Thursday October 18, 2012, 11:03 am
My Response to Lynn is quite tame as opposed to the slander Lynn directed at Barbara. I just offered Lynn a better use of her time so she wouldn't get herself into trouble by falsely labeling someone. Beside, she's a grown women. She can defend herself. Lynn, what is your definition of an anti-semite? Is someone an anti-semite just because they disagree with you? Is someone an anti-semite because they disagree with Israel policy? Is someone also anti-semitic against Palestinians who are also a semitic people? Tell me your definition Lynn. Maybe she took my advice and is baking cookies.

Gillian, your strategy is also used by individuals like Netanyahu which is to present an entire new subject (Iran getting a nuclear bomb threatens Israel) as a ploy to dilute the issue of a Palestinian homeland, occupation, and discrimination will not work with me. I stated that I am concerned about all innocent people who are attacked be they Jew, Arab, Black, or White.

Anti-semtism might be spreading worldwide but we have to look at all situations not in isolation but in a broad context. The existance of Israel has been a reality since 1948. Israel's worst enemy at present is itself. The last time I look Israel has been threatening countries with attacks and have attacked countries preemptively. These counttries who were attacked by Israel want to retaliate but they know if they retaliate against Israel the US is there to intercede massively on Israel's behalf. So instead these countries and groups individually attack Jewish and western interest when ever they can.

America's first duty is to protect itself and then be concerned about it's allies who ever they may be. Israel must be careful to not wear out it's welcome with the American people like Netanyahu is doing by going in front of congress and upstaging our president.

Benefits work both ways between the US and Israel. I feel that Israel takes this relationship for granted by disrespecting US leaders for example when Vice President Biden came to Israel settlements were started when there was supposed to be a moratorium on settlements. These slights accumulate and are remembered by the American people.

Netanyahu has done all that he can to frustrate a two state solution. If the American people on the whole wasn't so ignorant to the actual situation involving Israeli/Palestinian interactions, Israel wouldn't be so dismissive and recalcitrant to a solution. But public opinion in the US is changing in favor of a balanced approach. If Obama gets a second term, Israel will have to bargain more in good faith.

Thursday October 18, 2012, 11:07 am
911, is another subject altogether. There needs to be a new investigation in light of building seven falling without being hit by a plane and numerous other discrepencies. There is also hint of Israeli/Mossad involvement based on the fact that no other country benefitted more from the resulting war with Iraq than Israel.. But I''m not going to get into an argument about that.

Thursday October 18, 2012, 11:28 am
Lydia, though I might be considered more progressive, I personally don't like labels because I think people have a right to change their minds, and have a combination of progressive, conservative, and centrist positions they believe in.

Calling left leaning people names or calling right leaning people names is counter productive though I can be accused of name calling.

Gillian M (218)
Thursday October 18, 2012, 11:43 am
Terrance, you made a personal attack on Lynn who found Barbara W using the double standards of it being alright for you to be abusive (again because you cannot counter a comment) but not Lynn.

As for anti-Semitic "One who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews." While the term's etymology might suggest that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic peoples, the term was coined in the late 19th century in Germany as a more scientific-sounding term for Judenhass ("Jew-hatred"), and that has been its normal use since then. - happy now?

You have been the one who keeps introducing new subjects then complaining, a typical whinger who cannot support any of his statements.

"Gillian, your strategy is also used by individuals like Netanyahu which is to present an entire new subject (Iran getting a nuclear bomb threatens Israel) as a ploy to dilute the issue of a Palestinian homeland, occupation, and discrimination will not work with me. I stated that I am concerned about all innocent people who are attacked be they Jew, Arab, Black, or White."

I have already commented on this and shown that there are no genuine Palestinians but people who suffer because of their own people. I am not going to continue to debate something when you have obviously failed to read anything shown to you nor will you accept the truth. I have also pointed out that other countries, Muslim controlled ones, also have a duty towards them for creating the problem then ignoring it but you also ignore that. I have also pointed out in the past that Jordan should be Palestinian and/or parts of Syria. Why should Israel, a tiny little land, give up what truly belongs to them under international law. No part of Israel should be given to Palestinians as they rejected it back in 1948 and no claim was made until Arafat came along after the 6 Day War in 1967 and made demands. The surrounding Arabs had expected to destroy Israel before then and didn't so the Palestinians now suffer because of it. But then you don't read and the truth is not of interest to you.


Gillian M (218)
Thursday October 18, 2012, 11:50 am
Terrance, "911, is another subject altogether. There needs to be a new investigation in light of building seven falling without being hit by a plane and numerous other discrepencies. There is also hint of Israeli/Mossad involvement based on the fact that no other country benefitted more from the resulting war with Iraq than Israel."

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha - sorry, can't stop laughing.

What old hat/rubbish/drivel. The US only went into Iraq to grab oil contracts, which is what they did. How does Israel benefit? As for caring for people, every time you make a comment you prove how little you do.

In fact, you really are scraping the bottom of the barrel with such an accusation and still coming up with anti-Semitic claptrap. If I were you I'd give up whilst I was behind!

In fact, I will not respond to any future comment unless it is about anti-Semitism in Norway or in Europe. Your comments really are not worth responding to.

Lynn Geth (185)
Thursday October 18, 2012, 11:55 am
Terrance, your attack on me for my remarks about Barbara W.. was totally uncalled for. If she has issue with me, she can address me herself. If you think your rhetoric is going to solve anything worldwide, you're sadly mistaken. Although everyone has a right to their opinion, your posts are just that....your opinion! Keep on spouting "your opinion" while I go back to baking my cookies.

Thursday October 18, 2012, 2:24 pm
I sincerely apologize to you Lynn for suggesting that you go home and bake cookies. My criticism, not attack, was directed at what you said (calling Barbara anti-semitic) and not at you perssonally. You appear to be a very nice person.

Thursday October 18, 2012, 3:14 pm
I didn't make an accusation that Israel was involved. I said there is a hint that Israel/Massod was involved. Look, I only download an view the different theories I see online and piece them together. It's not my fault theories implicating Israel is online. I still think a new investigation is in order.

Stephen Brian (23)
Friday October 19, 2012, 12:35 am
Hi Terrance,

How would any behaviour by Israel lead to antisemitic behaviour in Norway? That is like saying that religious oppression in northern Mali would lead to anti-Islamic activity in the U.S. I know the story about how Norwegians might react to Israeli behaviour negatively and take it out on the local Jews, but that still amounts to immoral and bigoted behaviour by Norwegians. If they are willing to engage in that, then they will find a reason or make one up. Israel's behaviour, or perceptions thereof, can serve only as a pretext in this regard.

I know you're not an apologist for historic monstrous movements. However, Nazism is not a distinct ideology from others which I believe you would agree are far from extremist. It is a combination of extreme manifestations of a few. The same goes for the Jim Crow laws. I have never identified a single activist ideology which, if taken to extremes, does not become extremely dangerous, and the most benign-appearing ones tend to be the most dangerous.

Regarding Zionism, there is an issue with questioning whether one is a "Zionist": I don't remember on which thread, but I once pointed out six different definitions of "Zionist" in common use. Under some, I definitely am a Zionist. Under others, particularly those commonly used by political opponents of Israel, even the Israeli government is not: It outlawed the Jewish-supremacist Kach party, and its army's predecessor-organization, Haganah, attacked and destroyed Jewish groups that sought to drive out all Palestinians from territory under their control.

Regarding the behaviour of Israel (a totally separate matter from the treatment of Jews by Norwegians):
The deaths of 1400 Palestinians, roughly half civilians, are, sadly, not just the result of Israeli extremism. If that were the case, then Israel's democratic system and sensitivity to Western political pressure would provide a simple and peaceful solution. The trouble arises from the realities of war and an unsolved problem, though the IDF is often recognized as a world-leader in trying to solve this problem:

The trouble starts with the fact that, due to the nature of an army, it is impossible to punish one for misdeeds as law-enforcers punish civilians for crimes. This forces any group that seeks to maintain some rules, including those protecting civilians, to go back to the logical basis of law-enforcement; modifying would-be criminals' cost-benefit analyses to make crimes unattractive. As they cannot impose a cost, the only way to make war-crimes unattractive to independent armed groups (or units which will not have penalties imposed from their own hierarchies) is by completely eliminating the benefit of the crimes.

As for what constitutes a crime, we can look at the original Geneva Conventions (not the Additional Protocols). It looks, at first glance, like a negotiated compromise between those who support the rights of countries to defend themselves, and those who support the humanitarianism. It's not. It is the codification of logical solutions found over the history of warfare, considering what armies and soldiers must do to fight effectively and survive and what actions, by any side, will lead to unnecessary suffering in light of that.

With the guiding principle to what constitutes a war-crime and the principle of how to enforce a given rule, we can look at individual rules and cases:

To fight effectively, armies must be able to strike at enemies' logistical and command-structures. Theoretically, they could directly engage all combatants, but that is just about the least effective military strategy in existence and, in cases where overwhelming firepower allows one to use it anyways, literally the bloodiest possible. Armies must use heavy conventional weapons in their possession for such major assaults because assaults on such bases of operations with small arms, given the nature of modern weapons, are generally suicidal. With modern technology, heavy weapons will kill both targets and anyone in the area. Given these facts, basing forces out of civilian-populated areas will lead to their deaths, and this is why it is a war-crime to do so. The benefit gained from this crime is the protection of facilities as one's enemy, bound by the rules, is forbidden from striking at civilian-populated areas. As it turns out, this is a general feature: the benefit of a violation of a convention is almost always derived from the other side's obligations under the convention. In fact, arguably it always is. The only possible effective enforcement-measure, then, is to ignore this relevant obligation (in this case, not to use heavy weapons like bombs in a civilian-populated area) and strike anyways in full knowledge that civilians are likely to die as a side-effect. The legal term for this, as I understand it, is "reprisal against civilians" as the legal term for the denial of rights due to enforcement in an adversarial anarchic system (as opposed to the investigative hierarchical system with which civilians are more familiar) is "reprisal" and it is civilians' protections that are lost under it.

One could still say that the striking army is bound by its treaties and forbidden from doing this if the right to reprise were not written into the Geneva Conventions. Article 2, Paragraph 3 actually spells out something a whole lot harsher: It says that signatories' behaviour is not restricted by the conventions in their actions against non-signatories to the conventions which do not abide by their terms. strictly speaking, one could read that to say that the moment the rules are violated, they all permanently disappear. This is why reprisals are so important: They establish the grey area in which most of the rules still apply and from which civility in war can be recovered. Without them, the rules really would disappear and the Geneva Conventions, and all other such humanitarian rules, would be totally meaningless either by being unenforceable or having their enforcement lead to their effective disappearance.

Likewise, soldiers must be able to strike at immediate threats. As there is no armour today which allows soldiers to reliably survive giving their enemies total tactical initiative, failure to disrupt enemy actions by aggressive preemption of that killing shot will usually lead to a soldier's death. As a result, combatants are required to clearly identify themselves. The benefit gained from failure to self-identify, whether by uniform or some other means, is in creating uncertainty in one's enemies regarding whether or not one is a civilian and the fact that under the rules of engagement supported by the conventions, soldiers must positively identify enemy forces before firing upon them. The appropriate reprisal, then, is to lower the bar for identification of enemy forces according to the uncertainty produced by those enemies' failure to self-identify, fully knowing that this will likely lead, at some point, to having soldiers fire upon civilians.

The other side of the trouble is that urban guerrillas, including Palestinian militias, cannot fight effectively in the modern era under the rules dictated by the realities of war and the intent to protect civilians. There is no known rule-set by which both parties can engage in war effectively without killing civilians, and one side's failure to engage in war amounts to surrender or suicide. Israel has been a pioneer, particularly in the 2008-2009 violence in Gaza, in trying to reduce civilian-casualties while fighting effectively. That time, it made the world's first use of automated calls to civilians before bombings warning them to escape. This allowed militants guarding or handling the targeted weapons-caches to escape as well, but the weapons were the targets, not the militants themselves so Israel deemed this acceptable. Israel is particularly well-motivated to do this as certain aspects of Arab culture encourage enlistment in armed forces following the deaths of family-members at the hands of that force's enemies. I am not pretending that Israel is somehow more moral than others, only that among the countries which care about humanitarian rules, it has the most incentive to try to solve this problem where the two sides' military needs and those of civilians are incompatible.

Friday October 19, 2012, 12:09 pm
Brian, you make very good points initially and I am glad that you at least don't agree with all the tenets of Zionism. I still feel that Zionism and it's treatment of the Palestinians is a major cause of innocent Jewish victims aboard.

The war you allude to between Israel and the Palestinians in Gaza cannot be considered at war but a massacre between very unequal forces. It is also a cowardly war crime for Israel to use such disproportional force in a city as congested as Gaza. I liken this to pre-meditated murder. Of cause the Palestinians deserve some of the blame for the firing of rocket into Israel. But lets face it; those rockets were highly ineffective and didn't justify Istrael's disproportional response. Any real human being should not be able to live with themselves for committing such a slaughter of individuals. Your estimate that half the casualties were civilians is way off and wishful thinking. In all intense and purposes, Gaza doesn't have a real army. There are just a few militants shooting rockets and carrying guns.

A war that Israel was involved in lately those I considered a real authentic war was when Israel invaded Lebanon. Even though Israel possessed the superior military, Lebanon practically fought Israel to a standstill if not forcing Israel to withdraw.

My concern however is not to argue the values of tactical warfare. Warfare is a waste of money and resources, devastating to infrastructure of countries, and harms civilians more than anything else. I shudder from the thought of a bomb falling on a dwelling where I live and I also shudder when anyone is a victim of any kind of bombing.

I think Israel has it within it's power to prevent the current turbulence and devastation that is happenning around it. When Rabin came close to a settlement he was murdered. since his murder not Israeli leader has come close to solving the Israel/Palestinian problem except in my opinion Olmert.. Then he had trumped up charges leveled against him. There is more of a difficulty to make peace than there is to make war.

You might safe in your dwelling and I might be safe in mine. But I feel we owe it to each other as human beings to try to create conditions where all families regardless of race and nationalities can have a chance at good education, clean water, safe neighborhoods, and free from war. Feeling a since of pride because my country is very powerful and can defeat another country is short sighted, arrogant, and invited more suffering.This world is already to small and connected for us to think only in terms of our particular cultural, religious, and racial group. We must think in terms of being a part of one human were what happens to one affects the other.

Shan D (49)
Friday October 19, 2012, 12:39 pm
Nice to see that Europe ACTUALLY LEARNED SOMETHING from the Holocaust. [/sarcasm]

This is appalling. Europe needs some updated hate laws with teeth in them. I do hope my distant relatives in Norway are not part of this cycle of hatred.

Gillian M (218)
Friday October 19, 2012, 12:57 pm
Stephen, there is no point in trying to have a discussion with someone who obviously has no understanding of what is happening in Israel/Gaza and cares less. When he has lived under rockets lobbed at him and his family for some 10 years then he can complain.

I would also like to know what war America has won on its own since the civil war.

Gillian M (218)
Friday October 19, 2012, 1:10 pm
I wonder if bombing Nagasaki and Hiroshima was excessive?

The wars in North Korea and Vietnam were called for? Grenada? Costa Rica? Nicaragua? Bolivia? Panama? New Mexico is occupied land, when are you handing that back?

Stephen Brian (23)
Friday October 19, 2012, 3:21 pm
Hi Terrance,

If each side is too dangerous to be handled through normal policing, it's war. The IDF is obviously too powerful for Palestinian militias to police,and Palestinian militias, with rockets, anti-vehicle weapons, military-grade guns, military organization, numbers of combatants far exceeding what is normal for criminal organizations, definite willingness to use violence, and other capabilities not common among criminals, are far too dangerous for normal policing to apply. It's definitely asymmetric war, but it's war and the rules of war apply.

The trouble with just calling Israel's response "disproportionate" as so many people do is that it leaves out what it is supposed to be proportionate to, and the reasons for proportionate response. The doctrine of proportionate response was developed to allow for a grey area in deterrence, where one side can deter aggression without having to bring its full force to bear should that deterrence fail. the underlying idea is that deterrence is not about the use of force, but about the credible threat of its use, and if nothing is held back in the initial response, then the aggressor has nothing to lose by escalating attacks. The use of force in deterrence is necessary when it fails only in order to maintain the credibility of the threat in future attempts at deterrence. The required proportionality, then, is to the level of aggression and also to the level of response of which the responding force is capable. It is meant to be roughly proportional, but, to work as a deterrent, not even remotely equal. For example, if Palestinians fire rockets, Israel can bomb the launching-sites. If Palestinians escalate and attack a the barrier, Israel maintains the ability to escalate as well by, for example, evicting all Palestinians living in the area and moving the fence to claim more territory. Palestinians know this, so they do not escalate to attacks on the barrier in response to the bombings. The proof of the proportionality is in the fact that it works exactly as proportionality is intended. "Equal" response was never part of the doctrine.

Despite all of the good press at the time, I don't think Rabin was close to solving the problem. All of the trouble that arose since his assassination would have come up anyways. I believe there are much deeper problems in that conflict than can be solved by leaders, no matter how much goodwill there is between them. For example, the two cultures have different concepts of conflict-resolution, with mutually exclusive conditions for peace.

We do owe it to each other, ourselves, and future generations to work for a world where people need not fear war so much. This is why I hope that the methods developed over all of human history, with the accumulated wisdom of thousands of years in them, for the prevention of violence can be applied. As matters stand many leaders, who think they know better, demand that other rules be used, with humanitarian-looking changes. Unfortunately, those leaders never looked at why the old rules were the way they are, the practical issues involved which led to their establishment ,and the "new system", which discards all of the progress which led to the old, cannot possibly work.

Hi Gillian :)

I got some pretty startling numbers on Hiroshima and Nagasaki: The combined death-toll of the two nuclear attacks roughly matched the average civilian casualties for two weeks of fighting between Japan and China over the preceding two years. It seems very strange to say, but ending the war as quickly as possible was probably a very humanitarian thing to do. I believe some other wars, especially that in Vietnam, however, could have been avoided with very advantageous results for the U.S.

. (0)
Friday October 19, 2012, 3:27 pm
Outrageous action. why?? Jew what is next?? w are all G. annod's children accept some think they are god. No capitations. for god when it is only another mall mined man

Nancy Black (308)
Friday October 19, 2012, 4:16 pm
Noted, tweeted. I never realized Norway was a country of bigotry. After World War II, I can't understand any country marking a group of people.

Stella Nobrega-Garcia (4)
Friday October 19, 2012, 6:20 pm
Noted. This is not something that I expected to see in the 21st Century.

John T (7)
Friday October 19, 2012, 7:12 pm
The world is racing as fast as it can back to the 1920s.
Wealth is confined to the Corporatists, Antisemitism is on the rise, trade unions are being attacked, and the commodities markets are under funded.
Sounds like the perfect mixture for the unrest that scrambled the world in the 30s.

Pogle S (88)
Saturday October 20, 2012, 2:35 am
News to me. Is Hitler back from the dead?

Naomi W (20)
Saturday October 20, 2012, 4:34 am
This story isprobably false. It is being spread on the internet by certain newsblogs, but there is no evidence that it is true.

Saturday October 20, 2012, 8:00 am
Gillian, " Brian, there is no point in discussing with someone who obviously have not understanding of what is happening in Gaza/Israel and cares less". whatever your opinion of my views are you have no right to say I have no understanding of the situation in Gaza/Israel and provide no example of my misunderstanding. This is the gutter slander, arrogance, know it all attitude that result in actions that view others as non-human and unimportant. Therefore you can do inhuman things to them like bombing, poisoning, and assassinating them.

Your attitude Gillain is very evident in places like Gaza as Palestinians were maliciously herded into what is essentially an open air prison by use of political domination, American military aid, and a racist, Nazi like policy. Hitler would be proud of you. After confining mostly innocent men, women, and children with no way of exiting Israel used a pretext of essentially ineffective rockets to start a massacre.

Then Israel used helicopter gunships, fighter Jets, and tanks to spray depleted, and white phophorous, (both weapons that are banned for use according to the Geneva convention) on defenseless civilians as if they were roaches or caged animals. This is a war crime in my opinion.

Comparing the massacre in Gaza, and refugee situations in other war torn area's around the world with 800 something odd Jews who had to leave Norway is laughable. As the last two post before me suggest, this whole story even seem suspect. The eight hundred who plan to leave are all from synagogues and are actually only half of the Jewish population of 1,600. As I mentioned in my previous post, this whole article appear to be taken out of the playbook of Netanyahu big to do nothing regarding Iran's having nuclear weapons. Based on this suspect topic, I'd rather be someone who misunderstands than a liar who spreads misinformation.

Finally, this is my last contribution. Unlike Gillian who promised it was his last three of his post ago. Brian, "ending the war quickly as possible was probably a very humanitarian thing to do". How about preventing the war in the first place by not occupying land that isn't yours.

Saturday October 20, 2012, 8:08 am

Stephen Brian (23)
Saturday October 20, 2012, 9:41 am
Hi Terrance,

My comment about ending the war as quickly as possible referred to the Pacific component of WWII, not anything in the Middle East.

There were a lot of problems with just "not occupying" the land :

First, there was the extreme problem of strategic depth. This is not something we usually think about in North America, but it is in fact strategically vital, especially in a neighbourhood as hostile as the Middle East. Consider that strategic depth was exactly what allowed the USSR to defeat the Germans in WWII. Even now, counting the territories in question as part of Israel, it is roughly a one-to-two hour drive from the east end to the west at its thickest point. Even that would be nearly impossible to defend with modern technology if Jordan and Israel were not at peace, and if Arabs did not produce the world's worst armies (for their size and technology). As peace with Jordan came only twenty-three years after the war in which the land was taken, Israel had very good reason to maintain control of the West Bank. As for the Gaza Strip, numerous attacks had been launched from there, and not all by Palestinians. In fact, a major Gazan complaint of the time was that Egypt was using it as a launching-base for attacks on Israel and inviting retaliation against Gaza rather than any territory about which Egypt actually cared. Taking it from Egypt in 1967 was the best thing possible for both Israel and the Palestinians living there. Look at the development since then: Before Israeli conquest, they had not higher education. Now they have at least nine colleges and universities, the first founded almost immediately after the peace-treaty in which jurisdiction was formally passed to Israel.

Second, at the time, and even in 1990 when the whole legal situation changed as peace was established and the land was no longer legally "occupied territory" (though the name stuck), there was no potentially effective government to which to give it. Even now, the PA, whether in the West Bank or Gaza, cannot independently police and govern the territory that it wants. Though I have not seen supporting evidence for this, I have been told that Israel agreed, in the 1990 peace-accord, to help Palestinians develop a state-structure and achieve independence. Palestinians needed that help, and still need it today because they cannot run a country on their own yet.

These two together imply that the only way Israel could possibly have just "not occupied" the territories prior to 1990 was to simply hand them back to a hostile power which had attacked it, in the middle of the same war, though during a ceasefire. Aside from the military significance of the territory, this is ludicrous and dangerous for an entirely separate reason: What happens when a country cannot be penalized in any lasting way for attacking another? I understand the convention regarding wars of conquest, where other countries refuse to recognize a peace-treaty in which land is transferred from the attacked country to the attacker, because that discourages war. Exactly paralleling this, limiting the losses which can be incurred by the attacker encourages war. Why, exactly do you think the U.N., through Resolution 242, sought to give a free pass to aggressors and encourage further war, and specifically further attacks against Israel? Do you really believe it was acting in the interests of peace? Occupying that territory, with the implicit threat that if Israel were attacked, more would be taken, probably prevented multiple wars.

Fourth, in the 1990 peace-treaty, Jordan didn't want the West Bank back, and in the peace-treaty between Israel and Egypt, Egypt did not want the Gaza Strip back. No entity capable of governing those territories, except for Israel, wanted control.

Fortunately, there is now a joint venture between Israel, Jordan, and the U.S. to train a full Palestinian security-force capable of policing the West Bank. When this is done, if the PA there maintains sufficient popularity and technical ability to govern effectively, there might actually be an entity to which that territory could be given.

Now, regarding the "War crimes" which you described:
Depleted uranium is not banned at all. It is standard for armour-penetration. I have not seen any reports from credible sources that Israel used it against Palestinians anyways, and would be very surprised if they did. Those rounds are expensive, and Palestinians have nothing, or at least very little, against which they would be terribly useful.

As for white phosphorus, I find the affair sickening, but not in the usual way: It is not entirely banned for use in civilian areas: It is banned for use as a weapon, but not for illumination. During the bombings in late 2008, there was so much smoke over Gaza that pilots (and planes' cameras, etc.) could not see their targets. They then had to estimate the targets' positions as best they could and drop bombs large enough to hit the whole area where those targets could be. You see the problem here: Without illumination like that for which white phosphorus is used, the pilots would have had to drop bombs, that time, with such a blast-radius that a lot of civilians would have been killed. Strictly speaking, even that would not have been a war-crime as the munitions-storage sites were illegally mixed into civilian-populated areas and the appropriate reprisal is to bomb them anyways. After Israel received intense condemnation for having pilots with the moral courage to risk their careers to try and minimize the number of Palestinian civilians killed while doing their jobs, do you really think they'll do that again? How many innocent Palestinian civilians have to die before their so-called advocates are satisfied?

Stephen Brian (23)
Saturday October 20, 2012, 10:06 am
Hi again Terrance,

The AlterNet article demonstrated the usual quality of AlterNet right at the beginning. A diet of 2279 calories per day is not the brink of starvation. It's about 10% more than the FDA's average recommended daily intake for city-dwellers. With the intense urbanization of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, they would be eating more than I do.

Then there is the ridiculousness of the next bit, where a reduction in the numbers of trucks would lead to malnutrition. There were times when the UNRWA sent no trucks at all ... because their warehouses in the Gaza strip were full. Somehow, food-surpluses as large as can be stored just don't look like mass-starvation to me. Can you explain that one to me?

Once they finish with that, they talk about how the blockade is causing so much grief ... while calling an attempt to work out a way to stop the malnutrition a "damning document" in the title. This is impressive, even for AlterNet.

Then it talks about how the price of food is too high for Palestinians ... when it is given by the UNRWA. If I understand correctly, it is either given away or sold at a price set by Palestinian vendors. Israel certainly has little or no control over that.

If AlterNet is your idea of becoming more informed, then you haven't started learning about the issues..

federico bortoletto (47)
Saturday October 20, 2012, 1:30 pm

Saturday October 20, 2012, 2:00 pm
If Alternet is your idea of becoming more informed, then you haven't started learning about the issues". How can you put forth a statement about an outlet without any kind of an example as to why? This is slander.

Gillian M (218)
Saturday October 20, 2012, 8:39 pm
Stephen, I repeat that there is no point in discussing something with someone who has no understanding other than a blatant dislike of Israel, who ignores any and all evidence presented to him, changes the subject, ignores that evidence and then mentions Hitler. As you must be aware, anyone who mentions Hitler does so because they have lost the argument.

And who STILL ignores the relevant subject. It is obvious that anti-Semitism and Hitler's/Husseini's desire to make the world Judenrein is passing straight over his head.

Stephen Brian (23)
Sunday October 21, 2012, 2:35 pm
Hi Gillian,

Not all mentions of Hitler are about having lost an argument, only the vast majority. I actually brought up Nazism as well, though in far from the usual way. I think Terrance may actually be reading posts, though he does have the tendencies you mentioned. My posts here are not only for Terrance. they are also for people like Federico, who are likely reading this thread.

Hi Terrance,
I just did give you an example as to why. Read the rest of the post in which I "slandered" AlterNet. The article to which you linked here is so full of holes that, while I avoid calling something a "lie" if it could plausibly be a mistake, I am ready to call the article you cited propaganda, rather than reporting. Its whole thrust relies upon either the claim that limiting people's nutrition to 2279 calories per day implies malnutrition, or that when UNRWA warehouses are full and cannot store any more food, this somehow translates into a reduction in the available food.

In fact, I'll make a friendly wager with you because, despite having looked through a large number of AlterNet articles, I have never actually seen a good one. Pick the best, most informative, most insightful, most accurate article you have ever seen in AlterNet, your favourite, and post a link. Post one where there is a central point being made, not just a list of independent claims. I'll see if I can spot errors, whether in facts or logic, in it which thoroughly undermine the main point being presented, like I did with the one to which you linked here.

Monday October 22, 2012, 7:24 am

Nancy L (141)
Monday October 22, 2012, 8:31 am
I so agree Stephen. AlterNet should be named UltraNUTZ

. (0)
Monday October 22, 2012, 2:40 pm
Thank you Gillian and thanks for the fwd Alex. Stop the world..I DO want to get off. Gene's comments were spot on......ty Gene

Stephen Brian (23)
Monday October 22, 2012, 3:20 pm
Hi Terrance,

Are the BrasscheckTV supposed to be an AlterNet article?

I watched the BBC report at the top. Here's the problem: There is no family-name given so the case cannot be verified. While I would ordinarily trust the BBC, the production of propaganda is an entire industry in the Gaza Strip. It needs independent verification and I cannot find a single reference to it anywhere else. Also, the reporter appears to be Paul Wood. A quick Google search for him turned up this,
where his article begins by saying it confirms criminal accusations about white phosphorus, but the quote says the case in question was about the use of artillery, not any air-based weapons. While the claim about the girl being shot cannot be confirmed nor disproved with the information given in the video, in the other article Wood appears ready to jump at anything to support popular anti-Israeli narratives, even contradicting the evidence he presents. His word, the only thing supporting the video about the girl, then, just doesn't seem good enough to be trusted on this issue.
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