Sunday July 6, 2008, 2:45 am
Well written Mark!
"This isn't a revolution. It's an exercise in crowd control. It will give law enforcement the opportunity to use all their nets and tasers and tear gas and all the other gear they've been practicing with, and to justify buying more."
Why is it so hard for people to think things through? ~

Sunday July 6, 2008, 3:06 am

Thanks, Tere. It's a difficult position to take, but lately I've been calling myself Guerrillie Guy, and I don't happen to believe that the best way to bring about change is to gather in one place so as to be easier to arrest, and to provoke a confrontation with people who are better armed.

If you're going to fight, fight smart. If you fight dumb you're going to get your butt whipped.

Anyway, that's how I see it. :)

Sunday July 6, 2008, 5:53 am
I love your new name Mark. Thanks for this informative article. It tells it how it really is.

Sunday July 6, 2008, 8:27 am

Thanks, Mark. (I just finished viewing the video in Jill's story regarding the Zimbabwe "election," so I'm still numb.)

However, if the demonstration brings attention to their issues and incites some "fence sitters" to take a stand, more power to them.

Sunday July 6, 2008, 9:28 am
I have heard some things as well, and agree the government is very interested in provoking confrontation to exercise new methods and secret detentions that will in the future become routine. The goal of all fascist governments is to use mass media, false flags, and various other police-state tactics, to convert the legitimate opposition to the abuses of the wealthy into the enemy of the people as a whole.

Sunday July 6, 2008, 10:39 am
I also believe that the Gov't will provoke confrontation when it fits their time frame or plan, I also believe in disturbing or upsetting that time frame or plan to the best of OUR abilities, I refuse to give in to their fear tactics, so i still go to protests. I do see your point though Mark , or i'll call you GG for short, I would not waste my money or time going to Denver either. Its brains and resolve that WILL bring the balance back and a new paradigm, not guns. I love to protest peacefully, of course i have never been hit with a police baton, well, at least not at a protest, lol. Thx GG!

Sunday July 6, 2008, 12:06 pm
"...I refuse to give in to their fear tactics, so i still go to protests..."

I completely agree, never give into fear, or limit your choices or even choose inaction because of it. However, it is always important to consider how, where, and when to best confront them on our terms rather than theirs.

Sunday July 6, 2008, 12:56 pm

Thank you, Joycey.

Carole, what sort of stand would you like the fence sitters to take? One that has a possibility of accomplishing something, or one that doesn't?

I go to protests also, Serge, but only ones I believe have achievable goals. For example when there is a Zapatista protest in front of the Mexican consulate here, the consular officials can see that the Zapatistas have supporters here and that repression doesn't go unnoticed. When we protest against Blackwater, we get media coverage that not only can convert people to our cause by making them aware of the issues, but enables them to see that we are ordinary people just like them, not bad guys getting our just desserts from law enforcement.

David understands that our genocidal system has always tried to sneak up on, surround, and exterminate indigenous peoples, because they want to do as much killing as possible while encountering as little resistance as possible. They don't tend to provoke encounters that they know they can't possibly win. They don't rely on brute force alone, even though their strength is many times that of ours, they also make careful plans. In other words, they're bigger than us and they also believe that they're smarter than we are. Are they?

Thanks also to those noting this story. When we have many options available to us, I believe that we should choose those most likely to be effective and least likely to result in many casualties on our side and a lot of bad publicity that we don't need.

Carole, you can bet your bottom dollar that there will be provocateurs among the protesters and that when the fence sitters see them needlessly provoking violence on TV, they will not be drawn to emulate them and may instead associate our cause with violence and stupidity.

Sunday July 6, 2008, 6:19 pm
Yes, keep protesting...but remember Kent State!

I was out in the streets in New Haven on May Day, 1970. The National Guard were marching in full battle gear, wearing gas masks, bayonets at the ready. The Air Force planes were spying on the Green where thousands had gathered to hear some of the great revolutionary and visionary speakers of the day. I was never afraid, until a few days later when Kent State happened.

I then realized my country would kill me for dissent.

Sunday July 6, 2008, 6:36 pm

So funny you said that, Cate.

I grew up in Canton, Ohio -- so, the Kent State clubs were my teen-age "fake ID" stomping grounds. The incident was actually what caused me to start taking my government more seriously and GET involved. Suddenly, spending all my money on clothes and being able to "chug" a pitcher of 3.2 beer didn't matter much any more.

Sunday July 6, 2008, 7:35 pm
It feels like we have come full circle, and it is a cycle I did not wish to see be repeated, for yes, I do expect to see this government use soldiers, or more likely now, private mercenary contractors, to once again shoot people down in the streets.

Sunday July 6, 2008, 11:01 pm
Well said, as always, Mark. Tere, for whatever reason, thinking things through is always very, very uncomfortable. I can only speak for myself when I say that I am well aware that I do not enjoy it at all, even though I do it almost compulsively. The painful part is how regularly 'thinking' requires that I *do* something I SO do NOT want to do! :(

I may have to speak up for a truth that no one else wants to hear against assumptions that absolutely no one wants to question. We make a habit of shooting the messenger (or just the opposition), in western society! We get angry when people challenge our assumptions, whatever they may be. Because then we might be called on to say or do difficult or unpopular things ourselves. Or just feel things that it hurts to feel.

And then, I may have to actually do something, like write, protest, make myself available to others - get involved. Yuk. Or just put in some seriously hard work for very little obvious result. Which I hate. Or maybe give up on whoever is supposed to do 'it' (whatever it is) for me and do it myself. Which makes me feel unsafe, unprotected and burdened far more with responsibility than I care for. (So what if I was never really safe in the first place, I really did, and in truth still do, love the illusion of safety. Oh, how I cling to the pieces of that one!)

And if some awful and uncomfortable truth really matters, then I may have to put my own life on the line. I have done that - not in the way that a soldier does it, for certain, every time he steps outside in a conflict zone. But knowing that I was being followed, spied on, messed with and would quite possibly be helped to drive off a cliff I went on and did what I was doing anyway. (I managed it by just not thinking about 'that stuff' because I'm really a huge coward so I will not do such things if there is any way that I can avoid it.)

But, for whatever it is worth here's my 2 cents worth. Mark's right. There's got to be a balance here.

We, the people who are willing to think things through, are rapidly becoming one of the rarest commodities in modern society.

Whether we all come to the same conclusion or not doesn't matter. If we are willing to think and rethink, to look and look again, to care more about what is true and what will serve our humanity and our love of life than we care about our deflated egos if we ever admit that we were wrong - then *we* are the change we have all been waiting for. And every person who fits that description here is more precious to me than I can possibly express. Someone like Carole (if there ever could be someone like Carole) who publicly laid out her opposition to not voting - in colorful and vehement terms too - and then took up the challenge check out the data, check out the models, think through the logic and the impact of every argument and counter argument and who did this and just as publicly said "I was wrong". Priceless, awesome and far, far too precious to risk losing for a 'show' of courage that will leave no lasting impression.

The day may come when we lay down our lives together because we have been left with no alternative by the New American Zionists International regime. (NB Not anti Israel jab, the key here is the "New American" part of N.A.Z.I. as distinct from the old, 'next year in Jerusalem' movement!) But until that day I'd like to preserve and protect the greatest resource we have or are ever likely to have - us. AND for as long as we possibly can. Because WE are the only hope we have and we need to hold on to it!

Sunday July 6, 2008, 11:28 pm

My dear friend, Sara.

None of us wants to make this decision. We all WISH we didn't have to. But, because we are realists, we do.

I do pledge to do my utmost, while I am living and able, to prevent my own government(and ego) from making this country into something that will enslave my fellow citiaens, and pledge to keep it as the beloved country I grew up to believe in and envison for my children and all generations following.

It's really that simple. Believe it. DO IT! The logic behind NO in NOvember goes far beyond just "not voting." Rightfully said, that alone, would accomplish nothing more than the counterpart uselessness of actually voting.

Join us in developing a workable system of active citizen participation; transparent democracy; REAL representation.

We don't have all the answers -- and don't pretend to. Participation implies just what it says. Help us. Help YOU!

I'm neither a shepherd, nor a sheep. AND YOU AREN'T EITHER!

http://www.care2.com/c2c/group/NOvember

Monday July 7, 2008, 12:00 am
In the case of demonstrations. They call attention, for brief moments on the unrest concerning a certain issue or issues. However, after the fervor has died down and the ears of the Politicians again seem deaf, nothing really changes. Has everyone forgotten the way this nation of ours came to be? It was with strong words yes. Written documents-of course. And yes, you can consider the Boston Tea Party to be a form of Protest and Demonstration. Having said that, and I have spoken this way for years; Revolution is what is needed. I am not talking taking up arms, that would be suicide of course, even for all the thousands of trained men and women who are tired of this war, this ineffective government, (Congress as well), and the constant lip service of Politicians. I am talking about a nationwide strike. A real rally for change that would cripple the government because nobody would work, therefore, no taxes would be collected. That, my dear friends, is taxation with thunderous representation. I know, it sounds easier than it is, but signs and screams alone do make change. Courage comes from within, and therefore, change can only come from without.
I short, this nation needs to give itself an enema.It needs to purge the disease that is inaction, apathy, and the lack of true leadership on the part of all government officials. What ever happened to those persons being Public Servants?
Democracy in a Republic needs to be watered like a plant. It only continues to grow and flourish when we feed it. Our appetites, and that includes too many of us, have been for the short term material needs. Our national needs have gone unchanged for far too long.
We can all blame the Leaders, but what have we, the People really done to change this nation in the past 50 years? We have been in a sleep walk. I say it is time to wake up and decide, one way or another what it is we demand of our leaders as well as from ourselves. In that, and only through sacrifices and hardships can we expect to exact real and lasting change. Protest if you will, it is your right. But, actions speak volumes, while cardboard signs and marches only last as long as the permits the government allows are valid. Just a few thoughts from a man who sees the insides of an ugly national anatomy daily.

Monday July 7, 2008, 1:07 am

Luke, general strikes can be very effective. But they need to have the support of a lot of people. Most people really don't want to risk losing their jobs because they don't want their kids to be hungry and homeless.

But it doesn't cost anyone anything to refuse to vote. By withdrawing our consent from this government and refusing to give it our mandate, it will lose any claim to legitimacy that it ever had. It can't flip the votes if people simply don't vote.

Once we demonstrate that we do not consent to this government, do not endorse it, do not support it, and will not vote to delegate our power to it any longer, we can work to establish a democratic system.

Many of us underestimate the intelligence of the average American. But we know that most Americans are opposed to the illegal wars our government is carrying on at our expense. Most Americans, even those who couldn't find China on a map, are angry that we don't have good paying manufacturing jobs here any more and that everything we buy, including American flags for the 4th of July, is made in China. We don't need to call attention to the problems that people already know, we need to show them how we, working together, can solve those problems.

The first step is to refuse to vote, to make a clear statement to ourselves and to the world, that we do not support our government and that it does not have our mandate, our consent, or any legitimacy. The next step is to respond to everyone who asks why we didn't vote, including the alternative media, the mainstream media and the foreign press, that we didn't vote because we don't support an undemocratic form of government and we want a real voice in government.

And then we have to form neighborhood counsils, worker cooperatives, and everything else that needs to be done, which many people have been doing for years, that government will not and cannot do, so that we can become independent of a government that commits genocide in our name and buys our silence with gasoline for the cars that pollute the air our children breathe, instead of allowing us decent public transportation systems and greener vehicles in rural areas. This is the same government that allowed the automobile companies to destroy public transit, and paved paradise to put up a parking lot.

We can do better. We will do better. But we start not by protesting or striking, but by simply withholding our mandate and withdrawing our consent. Then legitimate power reverts back to us again and we have to work to show that we are worthy of it. I know that we are. Because no matter how ignorant and inexperienced in self-government we may be, we can balance a budget better than Congress can, make better environmental laws and enforce them better than Congress can, and run our country better than Congress can.

There will be strikes. I strike every May Day and so do millions of others. But we haven't been effective because we kept voting and the government, being able to claim that it had our mandate and our consent, could freely ignore us. This time we're turning the tables. We're the ones who are going to ignore them.

You in?

Monday July 7, 2008, 7:25 am
No in November is something like a generalized national strike (well, I see it more as a form of organized civil disobedience...), although as noted it has far less barriers to/risk in participation, and incidentally is truly open to everyone, not just those working...

Monday July 7, 2008, 10:01 am
Everyone who is like bush or cheney, shuold bekilled. Because of people like bush, the will be broken into two separate people, the east and the west, a big wall batween europe and asia will be built.
They control people by power, because they are chicken!! They only lie to people, take their freedom and occupy countries illegaly!!! There should be coup d'etat in usa. People have to stand against oppression is usa!! Break free from usa, nato and all organizations accossiated with them!!!!!!

Monday July 7, 2008, 7:02 pm
I agree with you on many fronts Mark. I do not underestimate the intelligence of the average citizen, as I find that the average citizens are the ones who do the most work for this nation. In fact, I am an average citizen. I did not come from a wealthy family, nor did I rise to a General due to my last name or family fortune. Of course people are afraid of losing something, just as all, (believe it or not to some), of those who are engaged in this insane war are afraid of losing not only their lives and sanity, but have no real reason to want to come home to a jobless and future of even more hardships.
As for Christian Vark; In many ways, almost everyone is like Bush and Cheney. Now, do not get in an uproar just yet. Everyone on this site and thousands like it are just as hard headed and stubborn in their views that nothing can change their minds. The only difference is, none of us can claim Executive Privilege can we? In the case of killing people simply for the way they are, well, that is exactly the way Bush thinks, therefore to suggest murdering people is Bush Like in nature.
When I was in the Special Forces, our Motto was De Oppresso Liber- To liberate the Oppressed. It was not, kill all who oppose the United States. So, in falling into the trappings of violence first and diplomacy second, all nations who proceed on such foolish roads are destined to fall at some point. The United States is never going to be perfect, but is a model of what could be, if, and a really big if; The People never waver on the belief that this is our nation, not the government's, the Politicians, nor the elite's. The time for NATO is antiquated and a time for new alliances exists, but not to fight wars, to prevent them.
If we only have limited choices of food we are forced to eat only those choices out of hunger. But, in the case of a real leader in the White House, well, I do not have an appetite for either candidate or the Parties they represent. I truly believe that Mark is right that not voting can send a message, however, if we do not vote at all, the ones that do, (and believe me, Bush did it in 2000 and 2004), will be counted to the liking of the Party with the most money and the most to gain in a World that is selling itself like a cheap prostitute.
We have almost no manufacturing left here in the United States. Our uniforms are even made in foreign lands. What does that tell you all? It is way passed the time to take back our nation, one piece at a time and to stop all this outsourcing and ludicrous NAFTA and WTO thinking that we can spare even one job for cheaper Chinese products. I can go without if the rest of America can, even for years if need be.
All sacrifices do not need to be as profound and useless as those who take their own lives in the name of religion. No, staying alive is key. But, if it takes having to go back to bartering and then growing our own food again to rid ourselves of the cancer that is our government, then so be it.

Monday July 7, 2008, 8:04 pm

Don't feed the trolls, Luke. When somebody with no photo and no friends posts a disruptive comment, particularly a comment that violates the Care2 Code of Conduct by advocating violence, it is usually a troll and is best ignored.

Luke wrote: "I truly believe that Mark is right that not voting can send a message, however, if we do not vote at all, the ones that do, (and believe me, Bush did it in 2000 and 2004), will be counted to the liking of the Party with the most money and the most to gain in a World that is selling itself like a cheap prostitute."

We know that Bush loyalists and the ignorant and fearful will vote, Luke, just as the opposition knew that Mugabe loyalists along with the fearful and the ignorant would vote in Zimbabwe. The message we want to send is that this government does not have our support and does not warrant our mandate, just as Mugabe does not have the support of the people in Zimbabwe. The new president will install himself as Mugabe did, and continue the same agenda of the past seven years, particularly the wars which have already been funded (by the Democrats) until 2010, as they have no choice. The Democrats pushed through the funding knowing full well that nothing has changed, that a third presidential election in a row is likely to be stolen, and that they would be funding McCain.

Have you read this, Luke? Consensual Political Intercourse

We know darned well that we're going to get screwed again, Luke. But this time we're not going to consent to it.

Tuesday July 8, 2008, 9:01 am
We need to do all we can to support the impeachment effort before it's too late! "If impeachment is off the table, then truth is off the table."

Go to this website for postcards to send to your friends, t-shirts and hats to wear, window decals, etc., to show your impeachment support!

http://impeach4freedom.angelfire.com/

Please spread the word and cross-post!

Thank you, Vibraceous, ND

Tuesday July 8, 2008, 11:09 am

Vibraceous, can you tell me what the purpose of impeachment is? It won't stop the war crimes, since the Democrats have already funded the illegal occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan until 2010, no matter who becomes president.

Is the purpose of impeachment to have a war criminal president from the Democratic Party, like Pelosi, the Democrat who took impeachment off the table and is next in line for the White House if Bush and Cheney are impeached?

It is the system that is corrupt, and we need to stop granting it our mandate and asking it to represent us, because it doesn't and it won't.

THAT is the truth, and asking Congress, which itself is guilty of war crimes, to impeach the president whose war crimes they voted for and funded, is only a distraction to take our minds off the fact that the entire system is corrupt and that it does not represent us and cannot be held accountable to us.

No in November.

Thursday July 17, 2008, 7:02 pm

Mark,

A couple things. First you ask what impeachment would do and as a simple and important answer of something you should already know, we have military officers that have stated the military would be much less apt to follow orders to attack Iran if impeachment was set into motion.

Is that not a sufficient reason?

Or are you dismissing all their statements because you know better?

Another reason...go look at blogs with people from other countries, you will see that our effort to impeach PROVES TO THEM that some of we the people are out to change things.

You can do your No in November AND let others work to send a message to the world also. Some can maybe even do both, believe it or not we are capable of multi tasking.

Your work to change things doesn't do squat if the world gets sick of us and either individually or as nations attack us right?

It is not giving any more power to congress if we push for impeachment than sitting at home saying you won't vote. They will see your plan as useless and it will empower them just as much as them thinking the impeachment movement is useless. Neither your plan nor the push for impeachment empowers them. It does not make them pass more laws, it does not make them attack more countries, it does not empower them. They can ignore the non voters just like they can ignore the impeachment people, but it does not arm them more against us.

I applaud anyone working in any way to change things, but you Mark for some reason think there is only one way....and every other way is not only ineffective, but is damaging and that is utter nonsense.

Work to get your ideas across, but would you quit with the dictatorial one track attack upon anyone or anything you don't agree with?

How many meat eaters will you get to listen to you if you say "quit meat and fish and dairy and if you don't do this all at once the food industry benefits and the environment deteriorates faster and animals suffer and your health goes down the drain and you are wrong to continue"?

A few, but most vegans and vegetarians all came to where they are in different ways, but we ALL have cut down on our impact on the Earth by making those changes. We got there different, but here we are and the outcome is good.

One major thing that needs to be looked at is the No in November is only going to be done by people that ALREADY are active. You are getting the choir to join the church---but they are not going to be new people that just finally are waking up. It is going to take work in many ways and on many levels. In a way it's like Alex Jones fans, most are already aware and active, they aren't your SUV owner with the W04 sticker on it next door neighbor type who either doesn't care or is just totally clueless.

Walk up to a guy like that and say "No in November" and see where you get.

Some people will talk to military recruiters, some will talk to their congregation, some will do this, some will do that and many of those people won't be signing up for No in November, BUT they will have an impact and many of them are not and will not be in agreement with you, or others will not understand it, but their actions are valid and they should not be talked down to and dismissed the way you seem to do with every single person on here that doesn't agree with your whole mission statement.

You see what a serious mess the world is in and you care enough to not only want change, but to work for it and that is great.

Toss your ideas out to the world. State why you believe in them, but remember that society, and the human psyche are multi layered, complicated and interwoven mechanisms and a statement of "I'm right...you're wrong" that isn't taking the many ripple effects such as what the impeachment movement says to the world into account sure doesn't sound like the all inclusive paradise that you espouse, it sounds like something the average person will dismiss as just another group or club with their own agenda.

Your idea if I am correct is that people work individually and collectively to achieve a better system.

So let people do that.