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For Israel And Egypt, A Relationship Under Strain


World  (tags: world, diplomacy, politics, middle-east, news, israel, Egypt, government, 'HUMANRIGHTS!', 'CIVILLIBERTIES!', violence, society )

Cal
- 869 days ago - npr.org
Ever since Egypt's revolution last year, many Israelis have wondered what it might mean for the peace treaty that the two countries signed in 1979 - the first such agreement between Israel and an Arab state.



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Comments

Ira Herson (13)
Sunday April 29, 2012, 9:28 pm
I remember well the relief and joy that this peace treaty brought. I was in Adelaide with an Egyptian and we went out and celebrated. So much tragedy for so many years put behind. Only the most evil heartless person would ever want to see war again between Israel and Egypt for any reason.
 

Jennifer C. (172)
Monday April 30, 2012, 2:15 am
Thanks for the article.
 

Dave C. (214)
Monday April 30, 2012, 10:07 am
Hope these 2 countries can still remain peaceful and together as leaders in a peaceful Middle East.....only a food or very evil person would want there to be war amongst these nations (or any nations anywhere)
 

Kenneth Davies (0)
Monday April 30, 2012, 11:20 am
noted
 

TERRANCE N. (65)
Monday April 30, 2012, 1:05 pm
How can peace between two countries be based on the dictates of one. figure, Hosni Mubarak, while ignoring the aspirations and views of the vast majority of the Egyption people? This was not a true peace between two countries only a miirage.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday April 30, 2012, 2:11 pm
Of course it was no real peace. The traitors Sadat and Mubarak were bowing to the Zionist shekel and enriching themselves while Palestinians continued to be oppressed byt he Zionists. No one wishes to see a return to war, but I hope the peace is as cold as possible so that the Zionist Entity gets no benefit from it at all.
 

Aletta Kraan (146)
Monday April 30, 2012, 4:41 pm
Noted , thanks !
 

Ira Herson (13)
Monday April 30, 2012, 6:58 pm
I guess it takes 20+ years to forget the horror of war and the loss from the people who go fight it. It can only be in an atmosphere of peace can people find ways to communicate.

War is the refuge of the incompetent and stupid.

Having been a Paramedic and treated people with gun shot wounds you realize the horror and loss that takes place. It is always a tragedy.

Let us all hope that reason will prevail and it will spread to the others with hate in their hearts.
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Monday April 30, 2012, 7:02 pm
Hi John,

You don't want to see a return to war? Didn't you very recently say you support Hezbollah and Hamas' acts of war against Israel? What makes Israel's southern border different from the north? Why don't you want to see the Egyptian army take up the same cause?

Hi Terrance,
Peace, like war, is generally not declared between nations, but between governments. In WWI, were the German baker and the British mason at war? Would the farmers of each go out and try to kill each other? The armies were definitely at war. If war is between armies, then its cessation must be as well. If one country is not democratic, then the views and aspirations of the majority do not control the policy of the entity which commands the army.

That said, I suspect the views and aspirations of a great many Egyptians, perhaps not the majority, but at least the urban Egyptians, organized enough and capable of overthrowing or preserving the government, are fairly peaceful. They know they can't hope to stand up to Israel and they know where the bombs would drop. Of course, the Muslim Brotherhood draws much of its support from rural Egyptians. This division, both cultural and in terms of immediate interests, between the democratic majority and the group which I suspect actually includes the effective dominant force of the country, may mean that Egyptian democracy cannot survive. Movement towards war with Israel could lead to another coup before an international war.

Regarding the natural gas, this may in the long-term work out to Israel's benefit. Forcing it to develop its own natural gas-infrastructure over enormous known reserves could tip its balance of trade further, allow more imports, provide more energy-security, and assist in general economic growth. Of course, without this, the spending on the infrastructure would yield no immediate benefits and might therefore be politically non-viable.
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday May 1, 2012, 4:26 am
Stephen B

I support movements of liberation. That is why I support Hamas and Hezbollah. The latter was instrumental in ridding Lebanon of the Zionist occupation and causd the welcome defeat of the Entity after its illegal attack. It is also Lebanon's best deterrent against any further invasion. Hamas keeps the flame of resistance bright and will be instrumental in the creation of a Palestine for all 3 religions.

Egypt can do what it wants. It gets no benefit from its "peace" with the Entity, indeed is at a disadvantage in that part of its territory has to be kept demilitarised, an insufferable affront. Of course, had the Egyptians been able to have regular forces in the Sinai, then the pipelines may not have been blown up.

As for oil and gas, your argumant might be more convincing if the bulk of these resources were actually in Entity waters, not Gaza's.
 

Alexander Werner (53)
Tuesday May 1, 2012, 7:17 am
Stephen,

I think John and those who think like him don't mind to war with Israel until the last Palestnian Arab. It is not that they don't care completely about Palestnian Arabs as of human beings - after all, Saudi Arabia donated them 60 Million out of 1 BILLION backs going to their help - that's a price of oil they get in 1 or 2 hours. Not that the Arabs agree to give these victims of war lands or rights - they reserve good staff for themselves only.

But what they don't like MUCH MORE - is the idea that tiny Israel won over 1.5 Billion of Arabs.

 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday May 1, 2012, 10:02 am
Oh dear. Bob A comes on the thread incoherently to babble.
 

pam w. (191)
Tuesday May 1, 2012, 6:30 pm
Rule #2.....When logic fails....INSULT, INSULT, INSULT.
 

Cal Mendelsohn (990)
Tuesday May 1, 2012, 6:48 pm
IF JOHN SAYS HE SUPPORTS MOVEMENTS OF LIBERATION, ZIONISM IS THE JEWISH MOVEMENT FOR LIBERATION.

OOPS--guess there's an exception, eh John???
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Tuesday May 1, 2012, 8:02 pm
Hi John,

First, Hezbollah was never a movement for liberation of any sort. I know that is its official line, but the organization is a Syrian puppet. It just wants Lebanon to fall under Syrian control rather than Israeli or even that of its own government. If it was really that patriotic, it would not have practically thrown a coup when the democratically elected Lebanese government sought to eliminate its independent internal communications. Sure, it could feel threatened, but if it were interested in Lebanese freedom, it would still have obeyed the formally expressed will of the Lebanese people.

As for what kind of Palestinian state Hamas is trying to build, read this:
http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/publisher,USDOS,,PSE,4cf2d0906c,0.html
In particular, look under "Abuses by Rebel or Foreign Forces or Terrorist Organizations". Preventing any other group from enforcing the law (by forcing all other would-be Palestinian governing bodies out) and then failing to investigate attacks on Christians effectively legalizes those attacks. I bet you'll love its imprisonment of secular Muslims. As for the West Bank PA, look under "Legal/Policy Framework" for the basis of its laws, and then the nature of the courts which handle "all matters related to personal status--including inheritance, marriage, dowry, divorce, and child support". Yup, secular Palestinians must be thrilled.
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Tuesday May 1, 2012, 8:02 pm
Now, John,

Explain again exactly why you support those guys.
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 2, 2012, 4:44 am
Cal M

"ZIONISM IS THE JEWISH MOVEMENT FOR LIBERATION. "

Well, no, it isn't as Jews are not a nation, ethnicity, "race" or anything like. They're just adherents of a religion, citizens of countries they are from who make their own liberation, if needed, in the countries they belong. And most don't belong in Palestine.
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 2, 2012, 4:47 am
Stephen B

"Preventing any other group from enforcing the law (by forcing all other would-be Palestinian governing bodies out)"

Seeing as they had won an election deemed to be free and fair by all observers and then were subjected to abductions of their MPs by the Zionist Entity and what anounted to a coup by Abu Mazen and his band of traitors, are you surprised?
 

Alexa R. (333)
Wednesday May 2, 2012, 12:53 pm
John D: "Well, no, it isn't as Jews are not a nation, ethnicity, "race" or anything like. They're just adherents of a religion"

You've sadly 'out of touch' John!

I know A LOT of Jewish people who will jump on you for putting them in the "Judaism" religious box! They're atheists, agnostics, Christians, Buddhists, you name it!
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 2, 2012, 1:17 pm
So they are not "Jewish people" then are they, Alexandra? They may have been descended from people who followed Judaism and who still follow certain traditions, but then they're just Buddhists and so on. Whet you fail to get is that "Jewishness" is not an ethnicity.
 

Ira Herson (13)
Wednesday May 2, 2012, 4:41 pm
As usual John D comes up with whatever springs to mind to make a point. He refuses to let facts or reality to stand in the way of a good rant.

John Says that Jews are not an ethnic group. Not a nationality. I guess he would say they had no language, no unique cultural heritage, humor, history. There are no well known people who are Jews.

A definition of ethnic
adjective
1. pertaining to or characteristic of a people, especially a group (ethnic group) sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like.
2.referring to the origin, classification, characteristics, etc., of such groups.
3.being a member of an ethnic group, especially of a group that is a minority within a larger society: ethnic Chinese in San Francisco.
4.of, pertaining to, or characteristic of members of such a group.
5.belonging to or deriving from the cultural, racial, religious, or linguistic traditions of a people or country: ethnic dances.

Yes there is a Jewish ethnicity and an identity far transcending simple religious affiliations.

Sadly for John D, Jews exist. His hopes that they will all be killed is not likely to happen either.
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Wednesday May 2, 2012, 5:38 pm
Hi John,

First, it doesn't matter at all by what method they achieved exclusive power over law-enforcement. They could have won an election normally with no complications for all it matters. Once that condition was achieved, systematic failure to enforce a law under recognizable conditions amounts to legalization of whatever that law would prevent under those conditions. In this case, it amounts to legalization of attacks on Christians.

Second, and this is a bit off-topic, Hamas was the one that threw the attempted coup. It demanded that the legislature, which it controlled, take control of the security-forces, which were legally controlled by the PA executive, controlled by Fatah. When the president refused to change the law to grant Hamas authority to which it was not elected, it attacked Fatah.
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 2, 2012, 5:40 pm
Ira H

"John Says that Jews are not an ethnic group. Not a nationality. I guess he would say they had no language, no unique cultural heritage, humor, history."

So that's why there are White Jews, Brown Jews, Black Jews and the rest? That makes them an ethnic group does it? I don't think so.

Language? They have the languages of the countries they come from. Hebrew is liturgical and has been artificially revivied in the Zionist Entity.

Unique cultural heritage? Oh, you mean the Sephardi Jews who eat gefilte? Or the Ashkenazi ones who eat couscous? Or the Hasidim who listen to and understand Um Koulthoum and the Iranian Jews who play the fiddle and sing in Yiddish?

Humour? Schmumour. Find me a Moroccan Jew who'd be saying that.

History? The history of Jewish people is connnected to the real country they belong to, that's all.

As for the pathetic accusation that I want to see all Jews killed, just bog off.
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Wednesday May 2, 2012, 5:58 pm
Hi again John,

You are talking out of your ass in two different ways regarding Judaism. First, Judaism originally developed in a time and place where religion, ethnicity, culture, and nationality were the same thing. Jewish religious traditions, unlike those of Christianity, address every aspect of life and society from labour-codes to practical, non-religious, education. That makes it a full culture, definitive of a full ethnicity, not just a religion. There was a vote by rabbis in the Paris Sanhedrin saying that Jews could accept French citizenship on the grounds that Judaism was a religion and not a nationality, but if I put together seventy scholars to vote that your natural hair-colour were purple, would that make it so? No, Judaism is definitely an ethnicity.

Second, you said that Jews should try to develop liberation within other countries rather than seek a Jewish safe haven. This was tried for centuries. It failed miserably under many radically different conditions. Certainly, there are cases of success, but the strategy proved unreliable. When I say "radically different conditions", I mean everything from Tsarist Russia where Jews were forced into their own communities, to what was seen as the most liberal,cosmopolitan, and enlightened place in the world, Germany of the early 20th century, to the religious supremacist societies of the Middle Ages. The modern world is no better, and in some ways modern Europe is actually worse in terms of religious freedom than that of 1900. Seeking well-being locally without a backup-plan is a well-tested path to disaster.

Once again, you tried to doge the questions: How do you square the treatment of secular people and religious minorities under Hamas with your idea of what sort of state it would create? How do you imagine that Hezbollah is supposed to be patriotic? How does the nature or motivation of a force make a difference in terms of what you would want it to do?
 

Ira Herson (13)
Wednesday May 2, 2012, 6:29 pm
John says
So that's why there are White Jews, Brown Jews, Black Jews and the rest? That makes them an ethnic group does it? I don't think so.

Yes it is an ethnic group. Jews have spread around the world and over many centuries and due to regional differences in partners Jews look different. Funny when I was a boy in the USA my drivers lic said under Nationality "Jewish". Not white or colored but Jewish. Although I was born in the Mid-west. So officially I am of the "Jewish nationality'.

However having a biology major from University I can say without hesitation that there is only one race in this world and that is Human.

Language? They have the languages of the countries they come from. Hebrew is liturgical and has been artificially revivied in the Zionist Entity.

I guess there was never Yiddish as a language. well there are many books, plays and songs that do not really exist.

Unique cultural heritage? Oh, you mean the Sephardi Jews who eat gefilte? Or the Ashkenazi ones who eat couscous? Or the Hasidim who listen to and understand Um Koulthoum and the Iranian Jews who play the fiddle and sing in Yiddish?

Yes it is true Jews for years have tried to become closer to the countries that they have lived in. Most have been very patriotic. I love Australia and work hard to support it. But I identify with my Jewish history. Along with the others you point out the Iranian Jews, the Spanish Jews the other American Jews. The Governor General of Australia Sir Zelman Cohen was Australian that was ethnically Jewish.

Humour? Schmumour. Find me a Moroccan Jew who'd be saying that.

Were you trying to be funny? I guess you just don't get our jokes.

History? The history of Jewish people is connnected to the real country they belong to, that's all. It is true that Jews settle into countries and contribute all they can. But they always identify with their culture.

As for the pathetic accusation that I want to see all Jews killed, just bog off.
Bog off? I see you did not deny that you hate Jews. That's alright you can hate who ever you like. But you support Hamas and their charter that calls for the death of all Jews.

So John D you can hate as much as you want, if it makes you happy. But just because you hate a people that does not make them disappear.
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Thursday May 3, 2012, 6:24 pm
Hi John,

The requirements for a group to constitute a nationality are strictly greater than those necessary to constitute an ethnic group so if a group meets the requirements of a nationality, then it is necessarily an ethnic group. If language is a requirement for a nationality, then I guess there must be no such thing as Americans, Australians, or Canadians. They must all really be English or something. Maybe you have to speak Celtic to count as Irish?

Regarding Jewish unique cultural heritage and history, just because you stick your head in the sand and refuse to look at it does not mean it's not there. The history of Jews in a country is, as a rule, very, very different from that of the majority-population. I guess all Russians were required to live in the Pale of Settlement, everyone in Spain was kicked out, and Poles in general were sent to Auschwitz, not some particular subgroups. Not only that, but there are common threads in the histories of Jews in different regions: Did you think it was only the guilds (trade-unions) of one or two European countries which prevented non-Christians (which at the time just meant Jews) from working in the trades? Maybe you thought the Crusades treated Jews in each region they passed through differently.

John, you just keep making yourself look stupider. I would say "Quite while you're ahead", but you're not even remotely. Quit while you're less embarrassingly far behind than you would otherwise be.
 

Past Member (0)
Friday May 4, 2012, 6:33 am
Ira H

"my drivers lic said under Nationality "Jewish". Not white or colored but Jewish. "

So "white" is a nationality? "Coloured" is a nationality? And we are talking about ethnicity, remember.

Furthermore, Jews were "Whites" under racist S African laws. Does this mean that we should have to agree with them, any more than racist terms from your youth?
 
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