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LIVE BLOG: Search for Israeli Teens Ends in Tragedy

World  (tags: israel, Hamas, teen deaths, politics, world, violence, middle-east, news, children )

- 1361 days ago -
Follow all the latest updates on the aftermath of the discovery of the bodies of yeshiva students Gil-Ad Shaer, Eyal Yifrah and Naftali Fraenkel here.

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Past Member (0)
Tuesday July 1, 2014, 4:43 am

Winn A (179)
Tuesday July 1, 2014, 6:23 am
So sad. RIP

Gabriele Jefferson (147)
Tuesday July 1, 2014, 7:05 am
noted, shared on fb, twitter, g+

Beth Nipper (70)
Tuesday July 1, 2014, 7:49 am
So sad.

Maggie Kearns (7)
Tuesday July 1, 2014, 10:55 am
Blessings on their families! :(

Tuesday July 1, 2014, 1:23 pm
This is a Human Tragedy for the young men, their grieving families, Israel and World Peace. My heart cries for everybody concerned. RIP May Your God Be With You - So Very, Very, Sorry.

Marc P (50)
Tuesday July 1, 2014, 1:29 pm
Israel has bombed the Gaza Strip in "Retaliation." I wonder how many children were slaughtered in that attack? Israel doesn't give a rats ass about those 3 students killed. It does not care about the thousands of Palestinian children it has tortured, shot, beaten to death, electrocuted, and bulldozed alive in their homes while the children huddled in terror either. This is just another excuse to continue the genocide. Perhaps if Israel wants their children to be shown mercy they should show a little themselves.

Gloria H (88)
Tuesday July 1, 2014, 2:52 pm
endless cycle of revenge. Civilians are always the losers in warfare. People don't realize that when they send soldiers out to get the "bad guys", that the only fatalities will be from the warriors. Friendly fire, pestilence, loss of food crops, destroyed schools, destroyed hospitals, no time to bury the dead sanitarily ,polluted water, rape are all by products of the rush to war.

Esther S (45)
Tuesday July 1, 2014, 2:52 pm
It is very sad and also very cruel by the terrorists who did it. Marc the "Palestinians" deliberately surround themselves with children and women when they do terrible attacks etc. They do that because they want to use it as propaganda against Israel when Israel fights back. They even put bombs on children and women to kill Israelis even though those bombs will kill the children and women also. They say it doesn't matter because the children and women will go to heaven. In this case they deliberately kidnapped those boys and then killed them. They were not just shooting people who were shooting at them in defense and those boys happened to be among them.

Kate Kenner (215)
Tuesday July 1, 2014, 3:01 pm
Do not stereotype Marc as all Israelis are in favor or what happens to the Palestinians and whatever they do does not merit the Palestinians killing children. This is part of the problem there (in my opinion). Every time there is some move towards peace there is a right winger from either side who will do something to disrupt it knowing that violence will erupt. They are extremists and peace will never be reached as long as this continues. I do not support much of what Israel does but do know that it needs to exist. The way it all started was all wrong with the UN giving land to the Israelis with nothing done about the fact that land was taken and given to them. no one talked with the Palestinians about it and of course they were angry. Still concessions on both sides must be made and both sides must give each other respect which is very hard after all these years.Those 3 boys did not deserver to die simply because they are Israeli-actually I think one is American.

Birgit W (160)
Tuesday July 1, 2014, 5:36 pm
Peace to all the people on our planet.

Marc P (50)
Tuesday July 1, 2014, 5:54 pm
Kate Kenner: I am a firm believer that each citizen is responsible for the actions of their Government. Those who sit in silence while children are being tortured, land and homes are being stolen, and children are being murdered by police are AS guilty as the Government that does this. This is the ideology the U.S. used to justify the killing of thousands at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And I agree to a certain extent. This does not excuse the crimes of the Palestinians. But their crimes pale in comparison of those of Israel. And the death of 3 Jewish boys does not merit the murder of hundreds of Palestinian women and children.

Marc P (50)
Tuesday July 1, 2014, 6:05 pm
Esther S.: Your comment is misinformed. On a daily basis Palestinian homes are raided at night and young children are ripped from their beds. They are taken to interrogation centers, stripped naked, affixed to crosses, beaten bloody, and have their bodies, including their genitals, electrocuted until they "confess" that their brother, neighbor, or parent has committed false crimes. This has been documented and growing movement of Israeli soldiers who are against these atrocities admit the same. The whole world (Absent the U.S.) knows the truth. If you are TRULY interested in finding out what really happens watch this Australian Documentary Expose here:

Walter F (129)
Tuesday July 1, 2014, 7:12 pm
Our thoughts and prayers are with the families who have lost host their children.This is not a place for stupid bloddy satatements against Israel.

Walter F (129)
Tuesday July 1, 2014, 7:26 pm
Sorry about spelling mistakes, loose keys on typewriter.

patsy olive (0)
Tuesday July 1, 2014, 8:18 pm
I would never say anything bad about Israel. I think they have been very patient.

Marc P (50)
Tuesday July 1, 2014, 8:20 pm
Walter: Truth is Truth. And my prayers ARE with the families who have lost their children - BOTH Israeli AND Palestinian. A statement of truth is NOT "A statement against Israel." Truth stands alone. It is what it is!

Stan B (123)
Tuesday July 1, 2014, 10:30 pm
The Hamas monsters who killed these three young boys in cold blood deserve a special place in hell.
Marc P. Your lack of humanity is a sad reflection of you as a person.
If you want to contribute an Israel hate diatribe have the decency to choose a proper platform. This sad post wasn't it. You lack decency as do many on your side of this conflict.

Walter F (129)
Tuesday July 1, 2014, 11:24 pm
Stan you said it for me.I repeat this was not the post for Palestinian apologists to spit out their stupid bloody anti Israel venom

Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 2, 2014, 1:01 am
This was a tragedy for the kids and their families and should be condemned.However I think it was unwise for these teenagers to go hitch hiking in the west bank a hotbed of terrorism.I have just read on the news that the body of an Arab teenager has been found murdered in revenge.I utterly condemn the instigators who carried out this murder and it has also been condemned by the Israeli government.When will this death and destruction end .

Maria Teresa Schollhorn (42)
Wednesday July 2, 2014, 1:30 am
So sad. Noted.

Gillian M (218)
Wednesday July 2, 2014, 2:39 am
Marc, I see that you are talking about how Hamas treats their own people and children and it is appalling that they behave that way. The Syrian "rebels" do the nailing to crosses, cannibalism, shooting pregnant women in the stomachs and children in the spine. Israel spoke out against these atrocities as they try to help the wounded Syrian civilians and some military.

You may also notice that Hamas targets Israeli children with their suicide bombers who target school buses etc, snipers who shoot babies in buggies and those that sneak into a house and slit the throats of little children either in bed or a bath. One only has to look at the tragedy of the Fogel family with the 3 month old baby.

I also notice that you believe that you should assume the responsibility of your government's faults. Let's see, they've been arming terrorists, releasing terrorists to attack them (& me), putting young children into adult prison for years without charge, stealing land from the First Nation and failing to pay them the millions owed in compensation, attacking other nations without a real reason, killing their own people, killing non-Americans, breaching the UN Human Rights charter, reducing your rights under the amendments - what are you doing about any of this? Are you going to hand over "your" property to the people from who you stole it? Unless and until you put your country right, and you will have a real job to do that, but please keep us posted on how you do, we would love to hear. You are very good at hot air now show us how good you are in doing what you say should be done.

Gillian M (218)
Wednesday July 2, 2014, 2:46 am
Stan, I agree with you but everywhere I saw the story of these children before they were found, everyone blamed Israel because it existed. It seems that Jews do not have the right to a tiny piece of desert and, presumably, do not have the right to live. Yet the incredible scientific and medical research and the amount of it which benefits so many, which is done under these circumstances, is incredible. I wonder what they would achieve if at peace.

“If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more ‎violence. If the Jews put ‎down their weapons ‎today, there would be no ‎more Israel'‎” - B Netanyahu

• To be or not to be is not a question of compromise. Either you be or you don't be. - Golda Meir

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Wednesday July 2, 2014, 2:57 am
Just to clarify my statement - it should read:

And no one is going to hold Israel as a whole responsible - like it happened in the case of the 3 Israeli teenagers where all Palestinians are declared guilty - leave alone condemn Israel.

Wednesday July 2, 2014, 5:17 am
Spill Israeli blood and pay the price !!!!!!!!!

. (0)
Wednesday July 2, 2014, 5:42 am
Marc P., you are a strange individual. From your first comment : Israel doesn't give a rat's ass about those 3 students killed, I knew there was something wrong with you.

Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 2, 2014, 6:16 am
Noted with sadness and sympathy. Agreed Stan, Walter and Allan. Thank you Cal.

Rosa Caldwell (384)
Wednesday July 2, 2014, 7:42 am
Very sorry to hear this.

Marc P (50)
Wednesday July 2, 2014, 8:46 am
Ge M.: I fully agree about what you have to say about the problems the U.S. is facing. I am appalled at the way our country is headed, and rest assured many other Americans are also. I have fought for civil liberties and freedom since the 1960's and still do what I can despite my age. I am an activist, I am involved in politics, protest, educating our youth, and more! What do YOU do to try to make things better? And you seem grossly misinformed about Israel. Israel has continually invaded Palestinian territory, declared it theirs "Because God says so." Thrown the Palestinians who own the homes out onto the street, and put Israeli citizens in them. Would you allow that to happen to your home without protest? I urge you to watch this Australian documentary:
It seems that many people wish to attack me yet refuse to view any evidence that might suggest that they are wrong. It is clear to me that Israel does NOT want to coexist with the Palestinian people. What Israel wants is to eliminate every last one of them and take their homes and land. And this is exactly what they are doing.

Evelyn B (62)
Wednesday July 2, 2014, 8:52 am
The deaths of these 3 youths are tragic for their families and their friends, and I do hope that there will be a thorough investigation to identify all those directly responsible.

At present, there are those who WANT Hamas to be pinned as responsible, and who do not really care who really was responsible. Attributing blame automatically, without real proof, to Hamas suits many senior Israelis (government & IDF) as well as extremists among settlers and among those who prefer never to question honestly any action by current Israeli leaders - and to hate all (excepting perhaps a few token individual) Muslims.

True justice for these 3 deaths would entail neutral and balanced investigation - and similar investigation of the deaths among the Palestinians caused by Israeli actions since the youths were first missed.

What makes absolutely no sense is: how did any (rogue or organised) Palestinians get in to Zone C, along an Israeli-only road, in order to grab these 3 youths - who appear to have been taking undue risks, hiking along the road.? How then did the Palestinians - if they were Palestinians - get back out of Zone C with the 3 captives? (Because one assumes that the IDF & security forces actually searched the area around where the youths were last heard from, including the "nearby fields" .... It is hard to imagine that they would miss them, if a search was carried out in the area) THEN - with the heightened presence of security forces, tightened controls - how did the guilty parties come BACK, with 3 bodies, through the controls .... in order to place them in the field? Were they REALLY Palestinians who did this? Or is there actually a murderer, or group of murderers, who in fact have nothing to do with the Palestinians? But it is so VERY convenient to keep saying "Hamas, Hamas, Hamas" until everyone believes that this is proven fact ....

There is no doubt that certain groups would far prefer to keep an image of "Hamas, monster" in the minds of all, rather than ask for thorough investigation.

Ros - you are right in pointing out that several people commenting here seem delighted to find another opportunity to damn Palestinians/Muslims/Hamas (terms being used almost interchangeably), rather than feeling any genuine sorrow for ALL those who have lost their lives in the context of these tragic events ... or even, really, for the 3 young settlers .... who, apparently were from a relatively moderate settler community.

But oh, what an opportunity to pour out the usual mix of mistruths & fingers pointed to happenings elsewhere in the world (in order to damn Muslims as a category) in order to claim that anyone who dares criticise the State of Israels policies & actions doesn't care about people .... What an opportunity to make personal attacks on individuals like Marc P .... judging their human capacity simply because they haven't considered Israel as beyong & above all criticism ........ Shame

I find there is a certain irony that Jewish Israelis have more freedom to criticise Zionism within Israel than do Jews & non-Jews in the US .... And I am comforted by knowing that there are growing numbers of Israelis who are not happy with the kinds of statements made by Netanyahu, by political Zionists and by hasbara voices .... Some of these critics have themselves supported Zionism but have come round to realising that Israel needs to be more just, more respective of human rights - especially those of the Palestinians who are paying, paying, paying the price of the creation of a homeland for the Jews.

Alice Macsween (1)
Wednesday July 2, 2014, 9:41 am
The parents have very good reason to be upset that the call for help was ignored. Police do get crank and silly calls, BUT, someone has to weed them out. The whole process needs to be looked at to see where they can make improvements to the system, I am so sorry for the parents and I`m sure the officers involved realize what a bad mistake they made.

Evelyn B (62)
Wednesday July 2, 2014, 10:10 am
Kate - you are right - far from all Israelis are at ease with official actions, and far from all blame "Hamas" categorically. A number - including former Zionists like Avraham Burg - recognise the way that treatment of the Palestinians increases risks of tragic events (e.g. see The Palestinians: A Kidnapped Society).
Marc P pointed out one of two recent documentaries that include the voices of Israelis: 2014 Australian Documentary Exposes Israeli Torturing of Non-Jewish Children (Viewer Discretion)
the other being: Documentary: Children in Chains

A typical attack on criticism & raising questions about Israeli official action is "You don't care about those poor women and children in Muslim countries" ... as though we cannot care about abuse of children in EVERY context where it happens - and if it happens in other countries, it doesn't matter when Israeli policies endorse human rights abuses and child rights abuses?

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Wednesday July 2, 2014, 11:54 am
Evelyn, I would give you a whole truck load of Green Stars if I could for your excellent and to the point comment in all aspects of it. You seem to be the only one - this incl. all politicians and journalists - who dares to ask the most logical and correct questions.

And thanks to Alfred Donovan for mentioning the young 17 yrs old Palestinian teenager who was kidnapped on July 2 in Jerusalem, tortured and then burnt. His name was Mohammed Abu Khdeir and he had done nothing - exactly the same as goes for the 3 Israeli youngsters.

It goes without saying that no true investigations will take place - not in the case of the 3 Israeli teenagers and not in the case of the Palestinian teenager. And no prosecution in the case of the murder of the Palestinian youngster. And no clamping down on extremist Israelis, no house demolitions, no detentions of whole families or settlements, nothing! And no one is going to hold Israel as a whole responsible like in the case of the 3 Israeli teenagers leave alone condemn Israel.

Israel will do everything it can - as it has done so many tiimes before - to stop proper investigations from happening. As usual the world is at the "mercy" of Israel - they are the actors, investigators and the judges. All that's left for the world is to nod.

The mothers of the 3 young Israelis had within days access to the UN and spoke in front of the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva - the whole Council being there and listening.

How many of the Hundreds and Hundreds of Palestinian mothers who's kids were and still are routinely abducted by the IDF and/or security forces of Israel ever had this chance? None. The world doesn't even want to know about them - the youngest child being abducted by the security forces of Israel in 2012 was just 6 years old and epileptic.

How many of those politicians lifted a finger? How many of those outraged commenters here even knew about the Hundreds of Palestinian kids being abducted daily? Is it safe to say ... none? Except those who brought these stories to C2?

Yes, Evelyn, "Hamas" is repeated like a mantra until the last person believes that the accusation is based on solid and neutral evidence. Anything goes until the Unity Government is forced to dissolve and peace doesn't lurk anymore in the backyard. Before that Netanyahu will not rest.

All that's happening are the two sides of the same coin. "Violence is the symptom - oppression is the disease" as Ury Avnery so succinctly stated decades ago. Nothing has changed here either.

My heart goes out to ALL parents who have to burry their children. It is against nature and moreso in these 4 cases it is so unnecessary and does just one thing: it creates more hatred on all sides, nobody will listen to reason in the near future ... until all of Palestine is incorporated. Mission accomplished for Netanyahu.

And for what??


Eleonora Oldani (37)
Wednesday July 2, 2014, 12:00 pm
Just to clarify my statement - it should read:

And no one is going to hold Israel as a whole responsible - like it happened in the case of the 3 Israeli teenagers where all Palestinians are declared guilty - leave alone condemn Israel.

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Wednesday July 2, 2014, 12:05 pm

And a last piece of news:

Hours after finding the bodies of the missing teenagers, a nine-year-old girl was severely wounded when an Israeli settler ran over her with his car and immediately fled.

What did this 9 yr old Palestinian girl do?? Was she too responsible??


Marc P (50)
Wednesday July 2, 2014, 5:26 pm
Stan B.: Showing compassion for children subjected to torture is "lack of humanity"!!!??!? The only ones showing lack of humanity are those supporting Israel's attempts at genocide. Unlike you I mourn the loss of ALL children! Not just a chosen few. Unlike you I despise ALL acts of violence! Not just that of Hamas, but of Israel also. And you call that "Lack of humanity.??" I suggest that you lack understanding because you are morally and ethically challenged, bereft of compassion, and filled with xenophobic hate. Those of you whom condone the actions of Israel regarding Palestinian children have NO right to challenge my ethics! It is YOURS that are lacking!. To blame the plight of the children on adults is also completely amoral. Your attacks are typical Zionist propaganda: Demonize the truth sayer.

Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 2, 2014, 7:27 pm
The deaths of these and other people is terrible and must be brought to an end, People say "I want peace." If you remove I {ego}, and your want {desire}, you are left with peace.
~ Satya Sai Baba

Stan B (123)
Thursday July 3, 2014, 1:07 am
Marc P. I've just re-read your comment at 1.29pm, July 1 and your subsequent attempts to 'spin ' yourself out of the hole you dug. Out of respect for the families of these three boys slaughtered by Palestinian butchers I'm not going to debate you on this thread. You'll keep for a later one. What I will say is that you are a total hypocrite.
Save your self-righteous, sanctimonious claptrap for those stupid enough to believe you.

Ros G. I decided some time ago not to engage you in any kind of dialogue because your comments have become increasingly inane and unworthy but I'm going to make an exception just for once.
" ..if you look over their (Stan, etc) comments you will find that they don't even show any signs of compassion for these 3 young Israelis and their families and friends......either....."
I sent a personal letter of condolence to the families of these innocent boys on the same day they were found murdered by your Palestinian buddies.
You need to get your facts right before shooting your mouth off but, in your case, that's most unlikely.

Marc P (50)
Thursday July 3, 2014, 6:23 am
Stan B: Israel's biggest problem is that it has leaders running that country that think just like you. You apparently lack the ability to understand that it is morally and ethically wrong to kill or torture ANY children. Apparently you condemn the murder of 3 Jewish boys while at the same time justifying the torture, murder, sexual, and psychological abuse of Palestinian children that happens on a daily basis at the hands of Israeli soldiers. How many letters of condolence have you sent to those families??? What you call "Self-righteous, sanctimonious claptrap." the REST of the world calls TRUTH. And is FAR superior to your evil stance. The crimes of Israel cannot be hidden forever. Israel's soldiers are coming forth with the truth. Israel's citizens are coming forth with the truth, and many would disagree with your tiny minded opinions. Every attempted insult you hurl at me is a badge of honor! We all understand how desperate your need is to disparage those who expose the reality of Israel's genocide plan. My facts ARE straight. They are illustrated in testimony, video, and more. And judging by the stars I am getting for my comments, everyone knows this!

fly b (26)
Thursday July 3, 2014, 4:31 pm
Tragic for all.

"How the public was manipulated into believing the teens were alive."

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Thursday July 3, 2014, 5:25 pm
To Marc P. - kudos to you for being so straight and stating facts which are irrefutable. I'd send you a ton of Stars if I could.

Unfortunately for the die-hard Zionist/supporters the internet spreads not only those news which are convenient because they serve the Hasbaratchiks and their myths but also the non-tampered with facts on the ground. Thankfully many Jewish Israelis remember the true teachings of Judaism and are not anylonger willing to "dance to the tunes of the piper" but follow instead their conscience.

Sad that Stan didn't feel the urge to equally send a letter of condolence to the mother and father of Mohammed - maybe he didn't find the address?

We will see justice for all ... one day ... even for the Palestinians.

Stan B (123)
Friday July 4, 2014, 1:09 am
Eleonora. Send me a link to any petition condemning the murder of Mohammed Abu Khdair or an address where I can send my condolences to his family and I'll happily sign it. His murder was also a terrible tragedy.
That's the difference between me and you.
Marc P. Perhaps you can find someone to buy you an album where you can stick all those green stars.

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Friday July 4, 2014, 3:33 am
Geeez Stan ... you know the ol' saying: "Too little too late"? You and all the other Israel/Zionist apologists missed that train long time ago - here and in other forums we have come to know long time ago your absolute lack of compassion and empathy for other innocent civilians - be they Palestinians or others.

I was always suspicious of people who carry their "good deeds" like a banner in front of them; some of your friends are known for that btw. Strange enough - my suspicion got confirmed sooner or later and without exception. There was always plenty of dirty stuff to cover-up with the "banner".

Would you have said that you wrote a letter of condolence to the 4 (four) families ... or would you at least have found one word of condemnation or a word of compassion or empathy for the innocent Palestinian families I would have openly and sincerely apologized to you.

Yes, that's the difference between you and me: I do NOT write in these forums just to look good. If I write something I mean it. If I don't mean it - I don't write it. Simple eh?

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Friday July 4, 2014, 3:44 am
To Stan - I could have actually saved myself some work and take what you wrote to Marc:

"The Hamas monsters who killed these three young boys in cold blood deserve a special place in hell.
Marc P. Your lack of humanity is a sad reflection of you as a person."

and just change a few words:

"The Jewish/Israeli monsters who tortured and killed this young Palestinian boy in cold blood deserve a special place in hell. Stan, your lack of humanity is a sad reflection of you as a person."

"The Jewish Settler who ran over the nine-year-old Palestinian girl in cold blood and fled leaving her severely wounded deserves a special place in hell. Stan, your lack of humanity is a sad reflection of you as a person."

And so on - the list is very long, Stan - you know it, your friends know it ... but your "outpour of compassion and empathy" can't be heard or read. Quite telling ...

Marc P (50)
Friday July 4, 2014, 7:33 am
Eleonora: Thanks for the kind words. To everyone else who has sent me personal comments and stars, thank you as well. "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" For too long has Israel been allowed to spin the story. What people fail to remember is that all evil will sooner or later be exposed to the light of day. And for everyone's information, I have no axe to grind. I live in the U.S. and was born and raised Catholic. The religious interest of either side means nothing to me. I stand on the side of Truth and righteousness and always defend my position to the best of my abilities.

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Friday July 4, 2014, 1:37 pm
Dear Ros - in case the friendship you worry about is ours ... there's no need to worry. If a friend can't tell the truth to another friend ... what kind of friend is this?

".... what is happening in Egypt to me at least is no better ..." - no better than what?

If you’re talking about the unrests in Al Minya – it was not (only) because a police officer was killed; for days there were riots, numerous attacks on churches and police stations, stealing the weapons of the police stations in the process, etc.

Of these 529 cases the death sentence was confirmed for 37; the other 492 were commuted to life in prison or less – of these 492 some 360 are still at large.

The other case which made headline was the case of 683 of which only 77 (seventy seven) are in custody. The rest is still at large too.

The Egyptian Law has some peculiarities: anyone who is tried in absentia has an automatic right to a complete retrial and the initial sentence is nullified. Egyptian law requires that death sentences are confirmed by the presiding judge after a comment has been invited from the Grand Mufti of Al Azhar, the country's leading religious official. The Mufti's opinion to the judge is secret and binding; in other words if the Mufti doesn’t agree with the death penalty it can’t be carried out. But even if the Mufti agrees the guilty verdict and death sentences are still subject to appeal at the Court of Appeal.

Until these sentences have gone through the whole bureaucracy a lot of water flows down the Nile … and a lot of political wrangling and lobbying has gone on behind the scenes.

It’s not like in Iraq where the US “spoke” the death sentence for Sadam Hussein, a Kangaroo court complied, the Appeals Chamber of the Iraqi High Tribunal upheld the sentence without conducting a thorough legal review of the verdict and a few weeks later he was executed.

All these facts not withstanding – the due process was flawed and far from perfect … but equally far from what the media reported. The reason why the judge led such a crappy trial is unknown and not to be understood as it leaves the door wide open for justified criticism.

Or where you talking about the convictions in the case of Kerdasa where the authorities raided the village which was kept hostage by the MBs last September? The MBs killed Nabil Farag, Giza’s deputy security chief, then dragged him through the streets and peed on his dead body as a warning to the villagers. The defendants were charged with murder, attempted murder, arms possession, resisting and attacking the authorities and using unlicensed communication tools to threaten national security. They were also charged with forming and managing an illegal terrorist group that aims to carry out unconstitutional activities, prevent state institutions from attending to their duties and attack the freedoms of individuals, among other things.

As for the voting process – Hamas was truly democratically elected acc. to the international observers (whatever that means in reality). Whereas the MBs were a different story as we know today. At the onset one should ask the valid question: how come that the two least likely candidates which were in the race (and which were way at the bottom) all of a sudden were the only two left in the race. There’s solid evidence today that this result was rigged from A to Z. When the only choice left in the 2nd round was between the cholera (Mursi) and the pest (Shafiq) many nullified their votes. Of those left the count was in favour of Shafiq. The Presidential Guard moved to his villa in Qattameya Heights and then for 1 ˝ hrs nothing happened; no announcement of the winner, nothing. Suddenly the Presidential Guard was moving out and approx. ˝ hr later Mursi was announced the winner. A flurry of meetings and conference calls took place between these two events and the rest is history which culminated in approx 25 Mio people on Tahrir Square demanding that Mursi steps down.

Yes, one can argue that one should wait until the next election if people realize they made the wrong choice; but these are not normal times and democracy is not the system here (yet). By then Egypt would have been split into 3 mini states, part of Sinai would have been given away, part of Upper Egypt was already gone (with new school books printed already) and the destruction of the State would have been almost accomplished. No, there was no time to waste.

I once led this argument re new elections and was told by a very liberal Muslim that one of the highest duties of Muslims is to speak out against an unjust ruler. All too long they forgot this basic principle - was his reasoning – and these times are gone.

Sorry for this off topic comment – I hope it sheds some more light on the issue.

Marc P (50)
Friday July 4, 2014, 3:32 pm
Eleonora Oldani: I for one appreciate your "Off topic comment." It is very enlightening. It is refreshing indeed to get an educated viewpoint "From the source." so to speak. It's not like we are getting the information you shared from U.S. Media! Our countries seem to share a common denominator! Both have elected leaders that have tossed Rule of Law out the window and do as they please. The only difference is that in your country at least the citizens have the temerity to stand up against oppression. In this country all we seem to be able to do is bicker, whine, call each other names, and point fingers at one another.

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Friday July 4, 2014, 4:53 pm
Hi Marc - thanks for your nice words! It's not only the US media which is "shy" of reporting; the whole international media walks in locksteps these recent years re Egypt and the ME in general. That is - regarding Egypt there is a very apalling similarity since the 2011 revolution if one reads the international press. Even the Swiss media which used to be a tiny bit different take over the "main" article and spread the (mostly) rubbish and distorted reports. I always say that half-truth are as bad if not worse than a lie. But that's me.

What always surprises me is that nobody (in the US and EU media) ever mentions the fact that the MBs which are terrorising the Egyptians until today were received in the White House already in 2005 on numerous occasions - although through the side entrance. There's ample video and pics proof available. Amb Patterson had no problems visiting the "grey eminence" of the MBs, Khairat el Shater (a convicted criminal), in his office although the guy had no official position in the Morsi Admin incl after the ouster of Mursi. ... And he is not a shining adonis that one could concoct a story that she was attracted to him... LOL.

This continuous support of the MBs by the US Admin should at least raise an eyebrow or two as they are proudly proclaiming their affiliation with Al Qaeda and admit that the one they're responsible to is the HQ in London. Now ... which country would accept to be ruled by a branch of an international organization? Yet the US Admin has only lately come somehow around in accepting that the MBs are out and stopped whining about it. PM Cameron went even so far to declare some 3 months ago that the MBs in Egypt are a persecuted minority "worthy of our (the UK's) protection"!! In other words and by extention: Al Qaida is worthy of protection rather than prosecution (?). And so is the ISIS/L (?) as they were until recently affiliated with Al Qaida and financed, armed and trained by the US + Israel in Turkish camps.

In other words: it's a whole mess and we, the people, pay the price as always. We have in Egypt since 8 days a daily campaign of bombs exploding in all kind of places in "commemoration" of Mursi's ouster a year ago. How much do you read or hear about this? I did a quick google and found only the incident of today where the bomb manufacturers in a big chicken farm in Fayyoum (owned by a known MB) blew themselves up by mistake. The 3 died and a fourth succumbed to his injuries was reported 2 hrs ago. We had yesterday the "pleasure" of a bomb 2 streets further down from were we live and so on and so forth. Neglectable news I guess ...

Stay safe!

Marc P (50)
Saturday July 5, 2014, 11:33 am
Eleonora and Ros: I must say that I have enjoyed our exchanges of ideas immensely! Here we have an Australian, an Egyptian, and an American (Talk about diversity!) all in basic agreement and sharing similar ideologies. I must say that I am inspired by this! :)

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 6, 2014, 3:25 am
Stan, we're wasting our time buying into this crap. I stand by you and I know you don't lack compassion. Neither of us do. But because we're pro-Israel, the Palestinian apologists will always assume the worst about us. They have their agenda and that's that. These 'debates' are ultimately futile in my opinion.

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 6, 2014, 6:59 am
Ros G., did you forget to take your medication tonight dear?..

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Sunday July 6, 2014, 11:57 am
Hi Marc - I enjoyed it too. Just one tiny detail: I'm not Egyptian - I just happen to live here since a while and must admit I feel totally at home having been welcomed with open arms and hearts. I'm half Swiss (German part) and half Italian (from the North). I hope this doesn't affect our new friendship - LOL!

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Sunday July 6, 2014, 1:01 pm
Hi Ros - isn't it interesting how ad hominem attacks start in order to camouflage the mental bankruptcy? It's always a confirmation that we do something right, isn't it? LOL!

Marc P (50)
Sunday July 6, 2014, 1:09 pm
Pisces Rising: I see no one here being "Palestinian apologists." I see people like Stan and you being Israeli apologists! Israel and its supporters have made it clear that they find Israeli Jewish children to have high value, while Palestinian children have NO value. Of COURSE Israel lacks compassion. Israel also lacks ethics, integrity, and human decency for the way it treats the children and families of Palestine. The fact that you condone and excuse the torture of ANY children, and you support the practices of seizure and occupation of Palestinian homes illustrates an amazing breadth of callousness and indifference on your part. If a psychiatric diagnoses was made your mind set would be considered sociopathic. Good, decent people hold the value ALL children to the highest level. While people of your ilk seem to consider Palestinian children (AND adults.) nothing more than vermin fit for extermination. We have seen this mindset before in history. It is the mindset of Stalin, Turkish Sultan Abdul Hamid II, Mao Ze-Dong, Pol Pot, Slobodan Milosevic, and Hitler. The rest of the world as evolved to see that this is evil. I can only pray that the day will come when you can see through your hatred and finally understand the evil you embrace so wholeheartedly.

Marc P (50)
Sunday July 6, 2014, 1:13 pm
Pisces Rising:YES. Ros HAS obviously taken her 'medication.' She is on this medicine called WISDOM! You should try a dose. It makes it so you can tell the difference between good and evil!!

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Sunday July 6, 2014, 1:39 pm
Marc I believe you're truly barking up the wrong tree. There's not much one can say to a person of such habitus.

Only when people come to realize and internalize that every life is equally precious and everyone deserves true justice - only then can humanity expect to truly move forward in the right direction.

I'm still waiting that at least one single Palestinian mother is invited to address the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva - just one of the over 1'500 mothers whose child got killed by Israel. Or any of those mothers whose child got abducted, kidnapped by the IDF or the Security Forces in the middle of the night and brought to undisclosed locations for interrogations etc. I assume I'm waiting in vain. It's not going to happen.

Or maybe an Iraqi mother? An Afghani mother? Or any other mother who loved her child as dearly as the 3 Israeli mothers and who wished for a bright future for them. This is not going to happen because they simply don't have the same value. We better get used to this fact. Not for nothing were the Arabs labeled "inferior" in earlier Israeli schoolbooks.


Graziella Veri (0)
Monday July 7, 2014, 12:33 am
Noted and shaed.Thank you

Graziella Veri (0)
Monday July 7, 2014, 12:35 am
Noted and shared.Thank you

Marc P (50)
Monday July 7, 2014, 4:22 pm
I just saw a video on the Monday July 7 6:00 pm news of 2 Israeli soldiers stomping a 15 year old American boy who was visiting the West Bank during school vacation. One soldier was holding the boy down with his foot on the child's back while the other repeatedly kicked him in the face. Even if the boy WAS doing something illegal - Which he and witnesses deny - This extrajudicial beating is STILL illegal, and in violation of International Law. Do you think the U.S. Government will act with outrage??? Do you think anyone will be held accountable??? - I DOUBT it! Why? Because the American boy looks Palestinian.

Millie O (146)
Monday August 11, 2014, 11:58 pm
This is just one very sad situation that I doubt will ever be resolved. And more heartbreaking when so many young lives are lost. Thanks, Cal.
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