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The Land of Milk and Honey Once More

US Politics & Gov't  (tags: politics, California, National Example, Progressives, economy )

- 2038 days ago -
California's new electorate, derived from exit polling data, is multiracial, younger, more liberal, not very religious and less likely to be married with children. ... The long reign of older white voters is coming to an end. ... "

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Jae A (316)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 1:48 pm
From the article ..: "the right wing is in retreat and the Golden State is the progressive bellwether."


Diane O (194)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 1:51 pm
Jae, CALIFORNIA IS BANKRUPT. What part of that do you want to discuss? People are moving out of California in record numbers. Companies have packed up and relocated to Colorado or Arizona.

What a dumb thread to post. This one takes the cake. The only point it makes is that California should be removed from the 50 states and become a country. Laugh Out Loud!

Diane O (194)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 1:54 pm
Jae, for your reading pleasure:

States: "You can check out any time you like," the Eagles said of California, "but you can never leave." Somebody forgot to tell businesses. They keep leaving the Golden State in growing numbers.

In 2011, more businesses (254) quit California than the year before (202), which was a high-water mark over 2009 (51). Last year, roughly five businesses left in any given week, one more than left in each week of 2010 when the average was 3.9.

At one time, California was truly the land of opportunity. But the business climate has turned hostile.

According to Jon Coupal, president of the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association, and John Kabateck, executive director of the National Federation of Independent Businesses, the state's business tax climate is the second worst in the nation. The corporate income tax rate is 8.84%, the highest west of the Mississippi and eighth highest in the country.

California's income tax, which is the tax many small-business owners pay, is the nation's third highest; the 9.3% rate kicks in at $46,349 in annual income for those who file as individuals, and the 10.3% rate applies to income over $1 million a year.

Then there's the highest sales tax (7.25%, plus local levies in some areas) in the country, the fourth-highest capital gains tax (9.3%) and the second-highest gasoline tax (an average of 65 cents a gallon).

There's also the vicious regulatory environment that businesses have to negotiate.

"California's anti-business climate is worse than ever because many politicians are making a career out of treating businesses as an object of scorn vs. a resource to be appreciated," says Joe Vranich, an Orange County relocation expert who tracks business movement out of the state and provided the exit numbers cited above.

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"Hence, we see efforts to increase taxes, regulations, fines and fees on businesses."

The benefit of leaving California is immense. Vranich says businesses save 20% to 40% a year in costs after their out-of-state moves are completed.

One company executive who left told Vranich that "we compete globally and we can't compete with California's costs." Another told him that California "is the worst state in the country to do business in. . .. There doesn't seem be any improvement on the horizon."

The root of the problem can be traced to 1974 when voters elected current California Gov. Jerry Brown to that office. It was during Brown's first term that his "administration proceeded to scuttle some infrastructure spending, limit development and expand environmental regulations," Steven Malanga wrote in the autumn issue of the Manhattan Institute's City Journal.

Within four years, says Malanga, Fantus Co., a corporate-relocation firm, ranked California the fourth worst state for business.

The trend was reversed under Republican Govs. George Deukmejian and Pete Wilson. But the anti-business climate returned in 1999 under Gov. Gray Davis, Brown's chief of staff in the late 1970s. Malanga reports that Davis "signed 33 bills that the state's chamber of commerce called 'job killers.'"

Davis was recalled by the voters, but his old boss Brown is back in the governor's mansion. One would think he'd be wiser, but that appears to be asking too much. He has signed a law that requires power providers to produce one-third of the state's energy from renewable sources by 2020, keeps pushing the high-speed rail boondoggle, follows the environmentalists' agenda and is in the pocket of public-sector unions — all of which heap more costs onto business.

Though in decline, California isn't dead. If it were a country, it would still be the eighth largest economy in the world. But it is the sick man of America.

The political class can't stop taxing, spending, regulating and harassing business. Until the attitude is changed, the number of companies that give up, check out and leave will just keep growing.

Read More At IBD:

Jae A (316)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 1:58 pm
Oh Diane O..give yourself a break from over heating when it comes to the great state of California. We have debt left by Arnold and that's why we are raising taxes and incouraging Corporates to homebase in the state...and why the rich here are willing to pay higher taxes for higher education and on and on. WHile other states are drowing in their debt with little as to ways out...we are doing something here as a united effort , all races,all levels of income..........and that' s how you get out from under Republican based debt. Something , as the articles talks about for those who actually read it first :-).

The dumb people are those who think they can over come debt by killing social services,public servies,low taxes for those who profit the most, and or by about DUMBIES !

Kit B (276)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 2:30 pm

Once I looked at the article and saw Robert Scheer was the author, I was eager to read it, what good reporter and author he is, enjoyed reading every word.

One thing that many are not looking at is what actually did happen in Texas. The vote has shifted, and 48% of the vote was democrat. Some are calling us purple, some think that within the next two voting cycles, it's possible that Texas will no longer be automatically slotted as a red state.

Huh, Diane you knowledge of politics has been shown to be somewhat less than correct. You were WRONG, your boy lost and Obama is still the president. Gloating...well yeah, just a bit.
When you feel a need to post an entire article on the comments section; don't expect others will read it or be bother with even looking at it, it's considered rude.

This paragraph struck me as a particularly good summation of not just California but the nation:

"The answer is that the shifting demographics of California, forerunners of an inevitable national trend, are producing an American electoral majority that is more culturally sophisticated, socially tolerant and supportive of a robust public sector than can be accommodated by the simplistic naysayers who now dominate the Republican Party."

Thank you, Jae.

Kit B (276)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 2:33 pm

Sending a Green Star is a simple way to say "Thank you"

You cannot currently send a star to Jae because you have done so within the last week.

Diane O (194)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 2:37 pm
Kit, so nice to run into you out here on the political forum. Always a pleasure to opine with you.

"Your boy" Obama only won by 51% of the votes. So, now, are you going to call me a racist? You called Romney "your boy."

California is in the TOILET because of entitlement spending, illegals etc. Arnold didn't trash Calfornia, the democats trashed California. In other words, "it took a village."


Diane O (194)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 2:38 pm
Oh, and "thank you, Jae."

Kit B (276)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 2:41 pm

Learn from another republican about Social Services:

"Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are H. L. Hunt (you possibly know his background), a few other Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or business man from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid." President Dwight D Eisenhower

They are still stupid, and the numbers are declining.

Jae A (316)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 2:49 pm
Wrong as usual Diane O....the debt was created by Arnold and his corporate bosses who want and received 'entitlements' from him and his like a true Republican he could not stop his out of control spending and borrowing in general. Now the good people of this state are doing something about it instead of whining about Romney losing the election and if sore losers and cry babies can't have it their way they''ll Secede. As the article points out California is also encouraging other states to do the same. It's the only way to over come the Republican insanitea of spending and borrowing of the past...and stop them from continuing with their insaniTea of budgets cuts in all the wrong places.

Kit B (276)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 2:51 pm

The number is 53% and what has "your boy" to do with anything? Not every republican I know is a racist, but every racist I know is a republican.

When I enter a store and make a purchase, I have paid for that item, I am "entitled" to have that item. There is nothing free about Social Security nor Medicare, they are paid for in our taxes, in fact paid for separately from our income taxes.

Just a word about that nasty comment toward California and those in need of help or assistance:

Romans 14:13: Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.

Jae A (316)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 3:01 pm
Right on least the people in California have the right attitude,either we are survive and take care of one another or we all go down together. Right now we're working on erasing the Republican debt of the past with a 'united people' , as I mentioned above...because unlike the Teabagger Klan and other extremist, we know we're in this ....together ..........and we're doing something about it together. Diane O, you can have that special interest group attitude...along with your.. boo hoo Romney Lost... the election ...lets just Secede if we can't have an Oligarchy...or some other lame crap excuse instead of doing whats right for all states and all the people in America...that' s your choice....but it's not the choice of the majority in Ca. or most of the United States..according to the results of the last election.

Diane O (194)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 3:06 pm
Kit, Obama won 51% to 48%. Get it right.

No, Jae, the people in California have it exactly wrong. That is why they are bankrupt. That is why people are moving out of California and that is why companies are leaving in record numbers. I wouldn't say that was the right direction, would you?

Jae A (316)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 3:11 pm
Diane O...on other threads where you've made similar cracks about 'entitlements' it's been pointed out, even though you obviously chose to ignore the fact..that's it the Red States which have the higher degree of welfare recipients and who are receiving the most 'federal funding/aid'...or 'entitlements ' as you prefer to call them..

Jae A (316)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 3:16 pm
I'd say you points are as out dated, as are your rightwing extremist assumptions are in general, about Ca. Diane O.

Kit B (276)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 3:18 pm

Fortunately, Jae you are a resident of California, whereas Diane is not.
Just more of the same, something to argue about. She still can not say she was dead wrong. Add to that continuously insulting toward the president. Have any percentage you wish, my dear. The fact is this country is indeed fortunate.

Dear Mitt and Paul,
I wanted to clear something up for you.
I have seen the debate about what went wrong, and why you lost this election. As a voter I want you to know that my voting against you had nothing to do with the fact that you are both rotten people.
It was not because of your crazy religions.
It had nothing to do with Eastwood’s empty chair, or the hurricane, or the liberal media telling me bad things about Bain.
I did not vote against you because I am a minority.
I did not vote against you because I live in an urban area.
I did not vote against you because of the cheese wiz in your veins or the elevators for your cars.
I did not vote against you because you are bullies and bigots.
I did not vote against you because you are rich hypocrites.
It was not because of Chris Christie, or Colin Powell, or Bill Clinton, or Anne Coulter, or Chris Mathews or Rachel Maddow or Meygn Kelly or Jon Stewart or Brian Williams, or anybody on tv.
I didn’t vote against you for any of those reasons because, I didn’t vote against anybody.
I voted for someone.
I voted for a man who brought my childhood friends home from war that they could kiss their wives and tuck their kids in at night.
I voted for a guy who loves New Jersey more than he dislikes Chris Christie.
I voted for the guy who looked in the mirrors of his daughter’s eyes, questioned himself, and changed his mind about marriage equality.
I voted for the guy who called Sandra Fluke and told her that her parents should be proud.
I voted for the guy who honors the women in his life by ensuring them trust to make their own reproductive and health choices and opportunity to work through glass ceilings with equal pay.
I voted for the guy who signed the stimulus that paid for the hearing aids that allowed me to hear my children clearly.
I voted for the guy who gave my sister the ability to buy health insurance in spite of pre existing conditions.
I voted for the guy who picked Joe Biden for a VP. Joe’s love for his country, his willingness to give of himself, his smarts and experience are top notch.
I voted for the guy who was smart enough to put a ring on Michelle Obama’s finger.
Most importantly, I voted for the guy who will continue to place America and what is right for her first.
I trust him.
When he hears a lone voice in a crowd of plenty shout, “I love you!” He shouts, “I love you back!”
See Mitt, Paul, it’s not you… It’s him.
I did not vote against you.
I voted for Barack Obama.
I voted for Joe Biden.
I voted for Michelle and Sasha and Malia.
I voted in favor of my self and my spouse and our sons and our future.
I voted in favor of the best tomorrow for America available.
You can blame polls, and weather events, and skewed electoral votes and biased media and urban minorities who supposedly want free stuff till you actually turn into the slow moving regressive elephants who represent you if you wish but no manipulating the facts.
You lost not because you are losers but because Barack is a winner.
Sarah Zacharias
The Bucking Jenny

Jae A (316)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 3:32 pm
I think what she is heated up isn't about her being so wrong about the facts as discussed by other than herself...that it's the fact contained in my first comment on this thread..that the rightwing is in retreat in Ca. , and basically all over the U.S. They know what a mess they've made of the states/nation as a whole and it shows. She probably can't handle that we aren't blaming the poor but the idiot Arnold and his Republican administration who took us into such debt, just as Dubya's Republican Administration did from 2000-2008... but the big fact beyond is that we are coming up with 'united' solutions , not campaign rethoric like she and the other rightwingers/teabagger klan/evangelic extremist etc. continue to my opinion.

Diane O (194)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 3:33 pm
Jae, the Red States have states in a lot of poverty, in our southern states. They don't have the jobs anymore. Manufacturing left their areas and they simply don't have the job and consequently they are a drain on our social programs. Higher education isn't the norm in some of these states. So, I ask you to look at the Blue States where liberal governors preside over the largest inner cities. These inner cities aren't getting any better and the taxpayers are paying for their entitlements. So, what is your answer to that? New York, Chicago, Illinois, Miami, Florida, Boston, MA, Los Angeles, CA, have inner city families who are third and fourth generations of welfare recipients and nothing has changed for these people YET their democratic governors want more and more funding for these people. You have to ask yourself what these governors are not doing right. Why aren't they changing the future of these people who are uneducated and can't support themselves much less the children they are bringing into the world.

The South has Alabama, Arkansas, West Virginia, South Carolina, Mississippi and there are no jobs for these people. Boeing wanted to relocate to bring jobs to their state and they managed to pull it off. I hope we'll see more companies relocating to the southern states.

Americans want to work. I believe that with all of my heart. They would much rather be working and providing for their families than waiting for the checks to be delivered every month.

So, I ask you, Jae. Where are the jobs Obama promised? They are nonexistent. If you believe that in the next four years that Obama is going to create more jobs you are in for a rude awakening. Obama is funding other countries for oil. Why isn't he doing that in America? So, don't talk to me about off shore jobs. Obama is the role model for not investing in the US.

Diane O (194)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 3:41 pm
Once again, Kit, you posted something of no value to anything. I would love to buy you a slice of cheesecake. I honestly do not believe you have your feet on the ground. At one time I thought you were a woman of knowledge but I'm not so sure that is the case anymore. It's time to get real, get down to the facts, and understand that four more years of Obama is four more years of a divided country. Obama won by 51% not 53% as you stated and that means...big problems ahead. 2014 will be a particularly important election because we have already witnessed what the power of the American people can do to the congress.

Of course, you and Jae don't want to discuss the transformation in the congress of November 2010. That was America talking to you. And they can do it again.

My guess is that Barack Hussein Obama will go down in history as a man who never should've been elected POTUS. Never should've been elected. Now why do I say that? Because he had "zero" experience in running anything and never had a meaningful job in his entire life. Somehow, the "perfect storm" was created for someone like Obama to be elected and then, by a very narrow margin, re-elected, and I believe that when he is done, finished, at the end of eight years, our country will have eight years of zero growth and record layoffs and massive high unemployment. History....will tell the truth about Obama.

Mary T (178)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 3:48 pm
Thanks Jae great article, tried to send you and Kit a green star but was to early.

Jae A (316)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 3:58 pm
..."the transformation in the congress of November 2010" ya say Diane O..well as I said, you are way behind ,using outdate usual in my opinion. This is 2012 check out the 'transfermation within Congress'' after the last elections. Notice how many teabaggers were not re many Democrat women were...and on and on. As for the 2014 election, with the huge numbers now retreating from the Republican Party in general we will see even a bigger landslide ,and the end , of the GOP controled House.

The only President of recent decades that will go down in History as being the worst for the nation... will be Dubya Diane O. His numbers of debt as well as death and destruction,of which in combo, they are virtually unpassable for anyone to do again other than another current day Republican possibley. I know these facts are not of your liking ....but then you can always join in and sign the Anti-AMerican Movement petitions to Secede..or just volenteer to leave the nation since you're so wrong on all this as well as being a sore my opinion. :-)

Diane O (194)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 3:59 pm
Sorry, Mary, but Jae's article was only a great article if you are a socialist leaning liberal who believes in the kum ba yah mentality that everyone should have the same shiny red truck in their driveways, and all illegals need taxpayer funding. By the very fact that Californians are leaving the state to avoid higher taxes and funding illegal immigrants who aren't trying to become legal and paying taxes and companies are leaving Calfornia .... actually tell the truth. California is in the fiscal toilet by their own liberal beliefs.

This wasn't about Arnold. It started decades ago. I takes "a village" to tank a state. The liberals were on board and responsible for people leaving the state to move to a move reasonable state.

Jae A (316)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 4:00 pm
Facts are Diane O...California is not going to let what the Republicans caused remain..but instead we are uniting,as the article points out, to solve those problems caused by them,and no way are we going to blame the poor for what the Republicans spending and borrow and mismanagement of our tax dollars caused. That the real facts Diane O.


Jae A (316)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 4:02 pm
You are right Diane O..on one fact, it didn't start with Arnold even though we are going to see to it that it stop'd with did start when Reagan was our Republican Governer. So you do have that one point finally correct in your last comment..thanks for the reminder as to that.

Diane O (194)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 4:06 pm
Jae, there is absolutely no way in hell that you can defend the state of California. California is the role model for what a state should never do. The bottom line is this: no matter who was governor are leaving Calfornia because they cannot have quality of life there with the high taxes that are funding illegal immigrants and other outrageous projects that the state cannot afford.

Companies are leaving California in record numbers. So, if you will, Jae, address this in your comments. Why are companies and families leaving the state of California? I mean, the weather is nice, no?

Jae A (316)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 4:18 pm
Sure there is Diane O...I just did !!! Pay attention instead of just babbling for the sake of babbling...the facts are ...Repubs got us into debt and now we are doing something positive about it instead of blaming the poor and crying about Romney the Oligarchy candidate losing the election.

They aren't leaving Diane O...Just as I and other explained to you on previous threads...some individuals ..Republicans in particular, who are wealthy enough have a second residence in another state to avoid 'inheritence taxes'...but they stay here for the plus side of the state of which there are many.Others of the same economic status remain and pay their share for the money the state enabled them to make in the first place...Your assumpton that companies are leaving the state is just wrong ...we are growing in companies in fact. Haven't you ever heard of the Silicone Valley..the high tec. industry that still growing in numbers here...the Solar and other clean energy industries that are moving into Ca. and on and on. Fact is you facts about more leaving than entering are just wrong Diane O.

Romney lost..California will over come ..with our united effort,the debt placed on us by foolish and or just stupid Republicans of the past. Those are two facts that are most important Diane O.....two that apparently irk you the most it seems to me.

Jae A (316)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 4:27 pm
I know it would be difficult for you to read the article but it covers nearly all of your standard righwing rethoric and questions, but perhaps you wouldn't appear so misinformed/out of date if you did, to others who will or already have read it....jussss say'n .

...but if not just keep rambling outdate material and hating the fact that California is doing something positive about the debt left by Republicans..while still helping the less fortunate in our state, and above all...that the Golden State is the progressive bellwether..while the Republicans are in retreat...Perhaps you should just give in and follow their face in doing so and all my opinion.

Jae A (316)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 4:38 pm
That "California's new electorate, derived from exit polling data, is multiracial, younger, more liberal, not very religious and less likely to be married with children. ... The long reign of older white voters is coming to an end. ... " a fact that is also on it's way to other states in the very near future..long before the 2014 elections even. Something else you might need to prepare for and basically get use to Diane O. As the article said...California is leading the way for other states to follow instead of blaming the poor and less fortunate..and doing so in a 'united effort'..on all personal and business levels via by stepping away from the old Republican ways and into the future with the Progressives...regardless of the debt that the past Repubican administrations left us with.

Jae A (316)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 4:45 pm
..ooops...make that ''Silicon Valley '' from my above comment dated Saturday November 17, 2012, 4:18 pm.

Judy C (97)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 4:58 pm
The poor little Republican piggies can't keep hogging the resources, so they're taking their marbles and going away. Those are the same widdle piggies who love to exploit the cheap labor provided by undocumented immigrants. Too bad. If only the would leave the country....LOL. Thanks, Jae.

Jae A (316)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 5:11 pm
So right on Judy C...California has decided to get rid of the Corporates that just want to take and take and give nothing back to the state or the communites that afford them the opportuntiy that comes with being in Ca. It's out with the old/greedy/welfare Corporates and on with the new,even if it takes funding to get them off the ground so to it's the future that matters to us...... and we're making sure that no child is left behind..when it comes to education/food/housing as well as our adults who are in need of the same. . .while paying off our debt left by the GOP of past years.

JL A (281)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 5:20 pm
The corporate subsidies to oil and gas are socialist as was Bush's TARP. Obama is a moderate by any political science definition.
The budget gap Brown was solving was the interest on the routine general fund Arnold asked the Legislature to fund via bond sales (historically reserved for infrastructure projects) and corporate tax cuts that were supposed to create jobs per GOP justification (but didn't) that the voters rescinded and added in a more equitable tax on the top income earners.
The past two years CA has created more jobs than TX--and most not the minimum wage jobs that are the majority TX creates.
One cannot look at taxes in isolation--corporations get a major property tax break by having those frozen at 1973 assessed value.
There is no major business out-migration--just a lot of profitable CA businesses expanding and setting up additional locations in more countries and states. Even the CA Chamber of Commerce supports Brown's policies (he, too is a moderate and not a liberal).
CA came close under Arnold to bipartisan universal health care--it is still on the table and as Obama's program components are implemented, becomes more likely and will enhance the quality of life in CA for all CA's.
Companies locate where there is an educated, trained pool to draw on for a qualified workforce--why so many continue to choose CA. Taxes are not number one on their lists for such decisions--they are more logical is such decisions than that.

Jae A (316)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 5:34 pm
Thanks for that comment J.L.A...".Companies locate where there is an educated, trained pool to draw on for a qualified workforce--why so many continue to choose CA. Taxes are not number one on their lists for such decisions--they are more logical is such decisions than that"...which is much better stated than mine were :-), and for the other additional facts, unlike the fiction that DIane O has been going for in her comments.

David C (129)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 6:00 pm
thanks, Jae, can't send you another star, but I love this article and of course as a native born Californian always keep watching what they do for as California goes, so goes the nation and world....

JL A (281)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 6:30 pm
You are welcome Jae. Unbiased, nonpartisan, factual information about CA is actually easy to find for anyone choosing to research an issue before speaking or writing about it. You remembered the gist of budget history pretty well. And things should continue to improve budgetarily with voters fixing the Three Strikes mistake dating back to Pete Wilson as Governor (the data for every state shows an inverse relationship between prison expenditures and higher education expenditures).

Kit B (276)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 7:53 pm

Perhaps you can have that cheesecake with side of sour grapes and wash it down with some whine.


Diane B (275)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 1:12 am
noted thanks Jae

Joy W (103)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 3:30 am
Noted ... Period.

JL A (281)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 5:35 am
Diane, we cannot answer something that hasn't been true for a decade according to the DOF--population in-migration FROM other states exceeded out-migration to other states for the past 10 years and when researched, businesses were NOT leaving the state as some GOP wanted to claim. How can ANYONE explain your myth, fiction or figment of the imagination other than to tell you the facts confirm it NOT TO BE TRUE.

Denial of reality and facts that do not conform to wishful thinking can be dangerous and is a classic unthinking and detrimental to society GOP response.

Patrice M (84)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 5:45 am
Diane, did you call the president "boy?"

Well, there goes your credibility from this point forward - you've got none. You just let the cat out of the bag.

Diane O (194)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 6:41 am
There are many researchable articles on people moving out of California and businesses leaving California and it is still going on today. Here's one article. There are many more.
Superficially at least, California’s problems are well known. Are they well understood? Apparently not.

About a year ago Time ran an article, "Why California is Still America's future," touting California's future, a future that includes gold-rush-like prosperity in an environmentally pure little piece of heaven, brought to us by "public-sector foresight."

More recently, Brett Arends' piece at Market Watch, "The Truth About California," is more of the same. California's governor elect, Jerry Brown, liked this piece so much that he tweeted a link to it.

The optimist’s argument about California’s future ultimately hinges on the creativity of the state’s vaunted tech sector, in large part driven by regulation promulgated by an enlightened political class and funded by a powerful venture capital sector.

No fundamentalist evangelical speaks with more conviction or faith than a California cheerleader expounding on the economic benefits of environmental purity brought about by command and control regulation.

The more honest cheerleaders acknowledge that California has challenges, including persistent budget problems. Arends denies even the existence of a budget problem, demanding "Er, no, actually. It’s your assertion. You do the math." Let me help you, Brett. The non-partisan California Legislative Analyst's Office has done the math. You can find it here. They expect budget shortfalls in excess of $20 billion a year throughout their forecast horizon. This is on annual revenues of less than $100 billion.

Last week the numbers got even worse, as the Governor-elect, Jerry Brown, acknowledged. The deficit may now be as much as $28 billion this year, and over $20 billion for the foreseeable future. This is more than a nuisance. There’s a reason, after all, why California has among the worst credit ratings of any state.

Most people outside of California haven't drank from this vat of the economic equivalent of LSD-laced Kool-Aid. People know that a state is in trouble when it has persistent intractable budget deficits, chronic domestic net out-migration, and 30 percent higher unemployment than the national average. Indeed, California’s joblessness, chronic budget deficits, governors, and credit rating have made the state the butt of jokes worldwide.

How bad are things in California? California's domestic migration has been negative every year since at least 1990. In fact, since 1990, according to the U.S. Census, 3,642,490 people, net, have left California. If they were in one city, it would be the third largest city in America, with a population 800,000 more than Chicago and within 200,000 of Los Angeles’ population.

We’re seeing a reversal of the depression-era migration from the Dust Bowl to California. While California has seen 3.6 million people leave, Texas has received over 1.4 million domestic migrants. Even Oklahoma and Arkansas have had net-positive domestic migration trends from California."

So JLA, all it takes is a tiny bit of effort to research these topics. If a person isn't really interested in the actual truth, they'll make a statement like you did based on zero research.


TomCat S (128)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 7:06 am
I hope Republicans stop Callfornicating the state!

JL A (281)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 8:08 am
Said like a true Oregoonian TomCat!

Dotti L (85)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 8:33 am
It is difficult to figure out why a person would be so against the state of California when that person has probably never been to the beautiful state and see all it has to offer. I left my heart there when I moved to Seattle. Jae, great article. Ellen and Kit (and others) great comments. Stars sent (green ones) to the deserving ones. And Jae, I will be seeing you in Palm Springs.

Felix P (94)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 8:38 am
The only thing dumber than one of Diane O's comments is a follow-up defensive post by Diane O.

No one is drinking at your cool aid stand Diane, so get over yourself.

JL A (281)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 8:53 am
Your facts on migration are wrong Diane--1990 is the last year of such out migration. "Migration between California and other states is difficult to measure. No single source of
data provides an accurate and complete picture of domestic migration to and from the
State. The characteristics of domestic migrants as well as the number of domestic
migrants are of interest to policy makers, but for the most recent years only rough
estimates are possible"
"In any given year, relatively few people move across state lines. Between 1985 and
1994, the annual average number of people leaving California for other states
represented only about two percent of the State's population. The annual average
number of people entering California from other states was also about two percent of
the State's population. The net change in the State's population due to domestic
migration has not amounted to more than one percent of the State's population for any
single year between 1985 and 1994."

The actual source of belief (which is not a current fact) related to migration:
"A dramatic change in migration patterns between California and the rest of the country
has occurred over the past ten years. In the decade prior to the recent recession, more
people moved to California from other states (domestic in-migrants) than moved from
California to other states (domestic out-migrants). With the recent recession, that
long-standing trend was reversed. According to unofficial California Department of
Finance estimates, from July 1989 to July 1990 domestic net migration to California
was at a 25 year high, with almost 200,000 people added to the State's population due
to domestic migration.2 "
"According to the 1990 census, 46 percent of California residents were born in California, 31 percent
were born in other states, and 23 percent were born in foreign countries.
2 Domestic net migration is the difference between the number of people who move to California from
other states (domestic in-migrants) and the number of people who move from California to other states
(domestic out-migrants)."

Also, your assumptions about who are migrating are erroneous:
"Most domestic migrants both to and from the State are White. On a net basis, only
Hispanic domestic migrants experienced a net migration loss between 1985 and 1990.
Since 1990, more Hispanic and White domestic migrants are leaving the State than are
arriving from other states.
· Domestic in-migrants tend to be better educated than either domestic-out migrants or
non-movers in the State. Between 1985 and 1990, California gained tens of thousands
of college graduates and lost tens of thousands of persons with a high school
education or less. Between 1990 and 1994 California continued to be a net domestic
exporter of persons with a high school education or less, and despite massive domestic
out-migration overall, experienced almost no net change in domestic migrants with
college degrees.
· Domestic out-migrants from California are more likely to be unemployed than
domestic in-migrants to California. Domestic migrants during the 1990-1994 period
were more likely to be unemployed than domestic migrants during the pre-recession
period of 1985-1990. California experienced a net gain of employed domestic
migrants between 1985 and 1990, and a net loss of both unemployed and employed
persons between 1990 and 1994.
· Domestic migrants to California are more likely to be white collar workers than are
domestic migrants from the State. Between 1985 and 1990, California was a net
domestic importer of white collar workers"
"William Frey of the University of Michigan Population Studies Center used 1990 census
data to evaluate international and domestic migration flows. Frey's primary focus is on the
relationship between migration, both international and domestic, and shifts in population
by race/ethnicity and poverty status. Frey argues that California and other states which
receive large numbers of international immigrants also experience a net outflow of less
educated and lower income domestic migrants as a result of the inflow of international
immigrants. Frey's study is based on 1990 census data, and it does not include data on
more current flows of domestic migrants.
The California Senate Office of Research used 1990 census data to analyze domestic
migration patterns of senior citizens. The report concludes that "[i]n the large scheme of
the state's economy, the slight out-migration of seniors hardly registers." Because the
study is based on the 1990 census, it does not include any updates on patterns since the
onset of the recession."
Legal Immigration to California by County, 1984-2010
Annual Average:214,625
and note how many of the movers were immigrants on pages 4 &5 and how even though the population increases, the numbers moving out of CA have been trending downward for the past decade.
Diane, please restrict yourself to the actual data for CA instead of seeking a source you apparently do not know how to use to try to support an erroneous belief after first deciding what you wanted to find.

Kit B (276)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 9:08 am

Thanks J L, and so many others. I do not understand this persistence by Diane to use either out dated or artificial information to take a stand so removed from the real situation in California.

Diane, if you have not noticed actual facts out weigh those you attempt to offer. Not that I expect you to bother to educate yourself beyond a singular view of the United States. You are however, correct about one thing, the blue states do in fact support the red states. That has to do with state policies and how the revenue within those states is distributed. Each state does have block grants issued by the Federal government in addition to revenue generated within those states. Poor policy, and an inability to use those funds in a way that returns that money to the people in services is, as always, the crux of the problem. Better roads, bridges and schools does attract business both growth from within the state and by attracting new business.

JL A (281)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 9:09 am
Most statistical analyses of CA data would find a number of 200,000 within the statistical margin of error for the analysis. And, for context, that number is less than the number of migrant farmworkers from CA that follow crop seasons into OR, NV, AZ, etc. each year. CA's DOF researchers are careful what month point in time data is chosen to ensure results aren't skewed by such a factor.

Patrice M (84)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 9:34 am
California's tech sector is largely in China, Diane, thanks to the failed policies of the republican party.
You can't spin what you called President Obama into something Kit said. Good try, though. Let's all give a college yell for effort..


JL A (281)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 9:36 am
You cannot currently send a star to Angelica because you have done so within the last week.

Gayle R (27)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 10:57 am
After years of double-digit deficits, California faces just a $1.9 billion budget gap next year, according to the Legislative Analyst's Office.


The report cites the improving state economy, prior budget cuts and the passage of the Proposition 30 tax measure as the factors for the sharp improvement. By 2014, the state will have a surplus of $1 billion and that will grow to more than $9 billion by 2017, according to the fiscal outlook.

Read more:

Arielle S (313)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 10:58 am
Gosh, I'm late to the party and I can't even send most of you stars yet. But it was a rousing discussion even without mentioning the apples and oranges (which I guess is the new key phrase for the GOP anytime FACTS don't agree with them).

Diane O (194)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 11:10 am
Kit, just because you state that I don't know my facts doesn't make it so. You are just an internet person just like me. We are here to discuss the issues. So, settle down, and give your superiority complex a rest. You aren't the only one with good talking points. There's always two sides to every story....especially in the political climate we are in today.

You cannot alter the fact that California is bankrupt and they've been heading down this path for decades. Cities have gone bankrupt and people are leaving the state. Businesses have left the state and more will follow. Nothing you can post can negate anything I've said about California. But, nice try.

California will never change because they are far too liberal in their thinking....and that's why people are leaving. Higher taxes? People move. Businesses leave. This happens all over the world.

Diane O (194)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 11:48 am
July 2012: San Bernadino, Mammoth Lakes and Stockton going bankrupt. (Duarte and Atwater) your research, folks. Nothing good is going on in's all downhill.

JL A (281)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 12:38 pm
Mammoth Lakes is a little over 8,000 population (most communities don't become cities with such a tiny population in CA)...a small resort community in the mountains in So CA...warm,dry winters destroy its income (e.g., global warming).
Atwater is conservative, has struggled since the closure of its AFB (Castle) population 28,568...

JL A (281)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 2:30 pm
No Diane, in research every word has meaning and pretending your use of bankruptcy was not intended to mislead demonstrates your inability to present the appropriate factual information without unwarranted intrusion of extreme biases.
I was showing what conclusions are merited with the quality (or lack thereof) of what you call your research which would result in failure on the undergraduate level in any classroom in the country since you misuse data, show no respect for appropriate use of statistics, do not usually cite sources that would merit cheating investigations on all campuses and pretty near every other usual and customary and professional standard deserving the label research.

If your 'research' indicates illegal immigrants are predominantly whites with college education, then your suggestion has merit and might bear looking into Diane (the profile of the majority of who is choosing to move to CA from other states).

Felix P (94)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 2:44 pm
Diane: ""Red States in America are in a better overall economic, budget, and debt position relative to Blue. If one looks closely at the economic data of all 50 states there is overwhelming agreement with this conclusion. The correlation is so strong that one will be hard pressed to find exceptions to this pattern." Google it and update your "knowledge."

Whose "overwhelming agreement"? Clowns on Faux Noise, Limpdick, Beck, etc. If the Red States are in such good shape, why are they getting subsidized by the Blue Sates. Here's some interesting states (from 2008) that clearly shows per capita income, education, etc., etc. is generally higher in Blue vs Red.

Give it up Diane, before your head explodes with bad data or you eat yourself up with hate. You clearly represnt the what's wrong with the right wing of the Republican Party: you offer no solutions only dissolution.Oh, and by the way, if you take away all those votes for Mitwit who thought Obama was a Muslim (10%) and didn't like have a black man in the White House (10 -15%), the vote tally would have been 70 -30 easy.

JL A (281)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 2:51 pm
Now that the DEMs have the supermajority in the Legislature, they will not need to worry about the GOP blocking passage of State budget, the cause of the credit downgrade for anyone who knows the actual history--just like in Congress the GOP games over debt ceiling and budget did to the US. The people of CA do not want to pay taxes for higher interest rates on debt attributable to such partisan grandstanding at the state and people's expense...and then the GOP crucified their own who put their duties per their sworn oaths of office ahead of such partisanship...Yes, CA is getting ever closer to more abundance as "the land of milk and honey."

Ellen m (215)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 3:28 pm
Diane, i do sooo believe in your freedom of speech, definitely more than you and your beloved rethugLIEcons believe in my freedom of speech when i and many others wanted to cast our votes. You tried to silence us with repression, and it didn't work...happy dance.

And as far as g/stars, i couldn't give less of a hoot. But considering we've been here the same amount of time, and you run your mouth on threads 100x more than i do, the g/star results speak for themselves as to who here is pissing against the wind..just saying ;-)

Jae A (316)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 3:35 pm's some food for thought...Ca. would do well to have you as a state rep in Congress...maybe you will consider such a position in the near future :-) ? Yours would certainly be a campaign I'd be proud to be an active member !

What I am now thinking as to why Diane O appears to be wanting to ignore or isn't interested in knowing my opinion, is the way Ca. is making it's changes ...about many of its political and social issues..along with clearing up the debt left by Republican Administrations,not by illegals...and how that is now being accomplished via Progressive ,by a majority,are in charge of our State Capital ...via a slam dunk kick'n to the curb of the Republican spend /borrow /obstructionist that once haunted/taunted it's buildings and landscape. Maybe that is what she objects to the most...hummmm....Repubs in retreat all over the nation...states taking control away from the Republican obstructionist...teabagger klan political gone state Federal funds under the microscope [ Obama and the addition of more Leftwing Congress persons are on that now]....Hummm...I can see/understand where her insistence... as to ignoring the facts and going with FoxFeed an or Karl Rove/Koch Brothers Retoric comes from .....
Possibly it's her fear that America has awaken to the facts of just how far over the cliff ,on way too many levels, the Rightwingers have taken states, as well as the nation, and are now deciding to take actions via' solutions' for their having done so, like those of Ca. most recently?

End the careers of Republican obstructionist first off. Then ..everyone must pay their fair share from, mid class to the richest, along with the Corporates who the state/people provided them the oportunity to do business Ca./other states in the first place. In the case of Ca. all the perks that go with their being in Ca. ...educated/creative employeers... that their companies need desperately in the growing competive world that it's become..are a big part of the package of doing business in the state of Ca.
.Oh and yes.. the weather, the culture,the arts,the beaches/inland communities, the farm lands,our metropolican cities, our rural progressive communities, the racial...emotional/sexual...religious diversity and so forth.. that also go with living and doing business in Ca.
It takes actions/solutions..and that's why I think those like Diane O can't comprehied that... mistakes of the past can be set right again...and that's what Ca . is proving with each pasing day now...and leading the way, by their 'actions [ not just the Republcian past of lip service and blame the illegals], for other staes to do...

Smack down rightwing political control state by state, then to the Federal level.That's when, on a state or Federal level ,the path has been cleared to over coming the past mistakes much ending the efforts of rightwing obstructionist of the politically toxic GOP and their righwing extremist spin groups..such as KKK,White Supremist,Teabagger Klan and so forth.
Is that what you fear Diane O..or is it still just illegals that has you fear focus the most ? Are they really the reason for the factless statements you've made on this thread ? Or is it that your state, if smart, will soon be following the path for a better ,united,America that's being set in motion already in/by Ca./Califonians ?

Jae A (316)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 4:08 pm
Ref. : My November 18, 2012, 3:35 pm

..well perhaps some "educated/creative *employeers* but what is the real plus :-),and who are by the majority of who is moving into California, are the ..."educated/creative/diversified *employees* ".

Jae A (316)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 4:29 pm
Wow...ok..let me try that last comment again.' It is a puffpuffpass kind of weekend Sunday here in Ca. which is one more plus to living here. :-)

..well perhaps some "educated/creative *employeers* but what is the real plus :-),and who are by the majority of those that 'are' moving into California, the ..."educated/creative/diversified *employees* "....etc.......................

Ellen m (215)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 4:36 pm
Forgot to mention to Kit that i loved the "Dear Mitt and Paul", and "borrowed" it to post to my fb is a touching letter that made me shed a tear, and a great "part II" to the "Dear Red States.." letter ..thanks so much for sharing it...
And Jae, i did read the article as i do many concerning Cali.
I was born and grew up there, and i knew the most magical of childhoods by being there...but just as TomCat said, i to came to resent the influx here in Washington and "Californicate" became an everyday 4 letter word when i saw my new home (of 35 years now) start to lose many of the green places and little gems of woods fall due to massive construction to accommodate them, as well as the seeming sense of entitlement that seemed to come with the money that stretched so much further here...but we all learned to deal with it together.
So beautiful California is always in my heart and prayers, as are all the places and people in this great country and beyond..thank you

As to Diane being afraid of illegals, i kinda doubt it. That "smattering of Spanish" she professes to know probably comes in real handy with her domestic help..though she may want to learn a bit more as the future we want to see becomes a reality...peace out :-D

Jae A (316)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 4:59 pm
ooooooooops...Ref. my comment "Sunday November 18, 2012, 3:42 pm"
I wasn't thinking about any of those who had commented at the point I typed, what I'll call... 'my commercial break'... about reading the article before commenting. ...was for those just joining in on the comments. Sorry if I didn't make that clear Ellan M.
I did earlier ,on the thread, make the statement as to suggesting that a particular commenter read the article before commenting on the topic of the article...Ca. before continueing to make comments on the topic............etc. In that one it was clear as to which commenter that suggestion was for. That was so that person might read the facts , past and present that it contains which would save here time and 'face,so ta say...before leaving other comments of the topic. Obviously that advice/sugestion/recomendation was not least I saw no indications that that person had afterward..But hey, their choice and I'm fine with the choices of others on threads. Almost as happy as I am with those that Ca. has been able to make,and will continue to make, especially since kick'n the Republican obstructionist to the curb.

Mac R (289)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 6:19 pm
Well I was busy reading my DailyKos and other fav progressive sites as Jae was having his fun with Diane O's Teabagger mind this afternoon, and wasn't planing on joining in, but... I don't like uninformed, petty and disingenuous people dissing my state with false info and obvious contempt that is just a projection.

But before I could really sink my teeth into it I had to read all the comments. Well, this is what I love about Care2 the most: the intelligent progressives here who so effortlessly rebutt idiocy and delight in dancing on TeabaggerKlan-folks' pointy little heads..... because that is one of my favorite passtimes. I guess I'm easily entertained ;-) JL A provided the stats that directly rebutted Diane's flimsy stats, and Kit and Ellen (Love your comments) along with Lin, Phil and Gayle left such great comments that I have almost nothing to say to Diane.

Almost being the operative word there.

Diane, bless your heart, the first thing I have to say to you is: I'm gloating, yes, gloating merrily, ecstatically that your side lost so spectacularly, especially that most all of the batguano craziest Teabaggers lost, with the exceptions of Bachman and Ryan. Let me put this as nicely as I can: I'm laughing at you and your ilk, hard, uproariously, laughing almost insanely. And I want to give you this one message on that front: Keep doing and saying exactly what you and your party have been doing and saying. It's worked so well, huh.

But on to California. First of all, Jae was born in Okla and I was born in NC, and we lived many years in Texas, which is where we met 31 years ago, so we know exactly what the people in red states think of California, Sodom and Gamorha of the west, land of fruits and nuts, etc... And I can certainly understand why a Teabagger such as yourself would view Ca with disdain since you've never lived here. You have to experience California to understand it. California is a state of mind as well as a physical location, just as other great places on earth are, like New York City and London, et al. The simple fact is that small minded people who have never experienced the great cities or regions of the world are almost always envious and dismissive of these great places because they know not how to experience them and their people.

I forgive you your ramblings and general idiocy, Diane. I'm generous that way to the less fortunate souls who have yet to experience high energy, dynamic places like Cali, mainly because we don't want you to come here, ever, even to visit. People like you bring our energy down. You're a real bummer. I'm sure you think you're a nice lady, but please, stay away. We don't want you. I'm not telling you to stay away, I'm just asking.

Ellen m (215)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 6:24 pm
No worries Jae, it was clear to me..i just saw it because i came back to post that thank you to Kit and cop to my petty larceny, and felt compelled to run my mouth about how much Cali means to me ~ it's even my username for just about every forum i'm in... Cali that is, not "run my mouth", though i admit that probably fits just as well ~lolL

Ellen m (215)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 6:34 pm
Mac, we crossed comments, and i wish i could send you 100 g/stars for that one as it had me ROFLMAO!...
Damn, what i would have given to have been at your guys place election night!!!

Jae A (316)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 7:14 pm
Speaking of ROFLMAO ....You have kick started the Watusi and almost blew a fuss on our laugh tracks more than once on this thread,so far :-)..

My Ditto to all that Mac said above in his comment...But of course ! Which reminds me of another plus for us, as we are married in the great state of Ca. as well as in several other states now.

Mac R (289)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 8:29 pm
Thanks Ellen. I loved your comment at 3:28 about your freedom of speech and the green stars. I laughed out loud at the brown turd comment, and I too think C2 should have a brown turd button, but I know that's not pollitically correct, but then neither am I..... well, not usually. I have no hesitation calling stupid on stupid people. Jae kept reminding me that on Care2 you have to dance around things like that, but I love to use sarcasm and irony to call stupid people stupid.... most of the time. Sometimes though, I just need to call a f**king moron a f**king moron, which is why I comment more on forums that aren't as censored or moderated for politeness.

I do not join in the choruses with folks who decry our divided nation and beg for civility and calm between left and right because you simply cannot have a calm and reasoned debate with people who are hateful and willfully ignorant. You can't debate the mentally deficient, but it is usually fun dancing on their pointy little heads. I mean, Diane O is relying on bad information from the same sorts of idiots who assured their viewers that Mittens was going to win in a landslide. How can one actually discuss serious matters with "those people"???

I loved Kit's letter from Sarah of explanation about the vote. It was both funny and accurate, as well as poetic. That's the kind of writing we get from ordinary people on the left. I suppose education has a lot to do with that too. People who dismiss science and facts, who deny climate change and actually believe the earth is only six thousand or so years old, people who actually think that a woman's body "has a way of shutting down" reproduction in rape-- and if that doesn't actually work, that rape and its spawn is a gift from God-- and all that kind of thing.......... how do you discuss and debate with people from the shallow end of the gene pool? Why bother?

Diane O was shown actual data that completely disproved everything she was saying, yet she continued to insist that she was right and JL A was making it up as she goes. WTF? Is she related to Dick Morris or Karl Rove? Facts aren't facts if they look good for the left? TomCat posted a Teabuggery report where a rightwingnut was saying things like that Obama has ordered the troops in Afghanistan to "revere the Koran" and other insane nonsense. We see these people and laugh, whereas Diane O and her ilk see them and think "investigative journalism". Need I say more?

Kenneth L (314)
Monday November 19, 2012, 6:58 am
Just to throw this in, Diane O. also vehemently stated and proclaimed with all her might and loudness multiple times before the election that Obama WILL NOT win another term, he simply won't, it won't happen, Obama will lose, yadda yadda yadda.

So wrong on such a little thing, so right on everything else? Doesn't seem logical....

Robert K (31)
Monday November 19, 2012, 7:16 am
Please do every intelligent person here a favor and inject your poisonous ignorance somewhere far from here. You're a disgrace to the rational part of the human race.

Robert K (31)
Monday November 19, 2012, 7:17 am
Whoops, that was for Diane O. Probably everyone with a brain knew that, but no matter how obvious I think I should have said so. Sorry.

Robert K (31)
Monday November 19, 2012, 7:37 am
And Diane, the problem in California stems directly from the passage of Prop 13 back in the 70s which has prevented the state from collecting proper funding, not from over spending (generally). Certainly not by Democrats. That's also the entire federal problem as well. As usual you have no idea of which you speak.

Kenneth L (314)
Monday November 19, 2012, 8:07 am
@Robert K., LOL! It WAS a very good insult no matter how you look at it!

Jae A (316)
Monday November 19, 2012, 9:29 am


You cannot currently send a star to Robert because you have done so within the last week.

Mac R (289)
Monday November 19, 2012, 9:48 am
Yeah Kenneth, I was thinking, "Oh I knoooow!" as I was ROTFLMAO at Robert's comments. That was funny; I don't care who ya are!

JL A (281)
Monday November 19, 2012, 9:58 am
You cannot currently send a star to Robert because you have done so within the last week.

Mac R (289)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 1:24 pm
I cannot figure out Care2's system problems that are affecting Jae and I. When we came to this page today it initially showed a few new comments added after yesterday on Jae's computer, but my page view only showed the last comment by JL A saying she could not send a star to Robert. I've refreshed the page numerous times but it simply will not update. This has happened to me a bunch on Care2, where I'm logged in but things like the Front Page will not update. It makes no sense. His computer will show the most current pages but mine simply will not update. I'm posting this to see if by posting a new comment the page will update and show all the newest comments.

Dotti L (85)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 7:28 pm
'Tis a puzzlement, Mac, as so many things are on Care2.

Don Schwarz (5)
Friday November 23, 2012, 5:49 pm
Thank you Robert Scheer for your column. Thank you Jae A. and Kit B. for your comments. Thank you J.L.A. and Robert K. and Mac R. for your comments. I am too late to add, but I love " research every word has meaning...." Even outside of research.

Yulan Lawson (156)
Friday November 23, 2012, 6:55 pm

federico b (47)
Saturday November 24, 2012, 7:05 am

Lisa Z (168)
Saturday November 24, 2012, 10:36 pm
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