Sunday April 26, 2009, 6:38 am
The article claims that the soldiers shot this man at "point blank range". Untrue, as the video clearly shows. Part of the Palestinian "protesters" were seen walking towards the soldiers' position. Obviously they were warned away. They kept walking. And the soldiers started firing tear gas into the crowd to disperse it. And they were firing from their original position - not at "point blank range". And instead of dispersing many of the protesters remained in place, despite the tear gas. And this man was hit with one of the tear gas canisters.

It's sad to see any person killed. But this was hardly "murder".

Sunday April 26, 2009, 9:19 am
Boycott Israel...Free Gaza and all Palestine!

Sunday April 26, 2009, 11:21 am
oh-I did not know you were at this protest Lindsey-shokran for your eyewitness account...

past memember-tech errors or not-u are incognito-so you not exist...

Jackie - yes-it is only way-all humans must be free - not just some..
salaam

Sunday April 26, 2009, 11:24 am
btw Lindsey-when protesters here walk towards police or military in a protest--they dont usually get murdered...unless they are armed n threatening to shoot--but IOF has shot children with mere stones in hand-case closed

Sunday April 26, 2009, 11:48 am
I didn't have to "be" at the protest, Aisha. The article provides a video account of what happened. Anyone with eyes can view it.

And police everywhere use tear gas to break up protests, riots, etc. on occasion. If the U.S. police fire tear gas into a crowd and someone is accidentally hit and dies, that isn't murder. It's an unfortunate accident. Just as this was an unfortunate accident.

Murder is the deliberate, intentional, and premeditated killing of another. And there is absolutely zero evidence that the Israeli soldiers were deliberately trying to hit any protester with the gas canisters. In fact, the canisters can be clearly seen in the video hitting the ground in many cases before going off.

Had they been trying to kill them, they would have fired bullets. And they undoubtedly had guns with them. But those guns weren't used.

Sunday April 26, 2009, 11:52 am
"Did anybody tried to protest Chinese or Russian military?"
we are not discussing that here-go find a forum and post there if that is ur interest
further-this is not a forum to glorify, nor try to justify Bassems murder-if this happened to an IOF would you be saying this
"It's sad to see any person killed. But this was hardly "murder". " I think not--please post callous remarks elsewhere-you not care if Palestinians die so why are u here??? Go to other posts where murder, genocide and oppression are gloified and accepted..

"because all armies except Israel use LIVE ammunition, not rubber bullets or tear gas. " are u saying the IOF only use rubber bullets or tear gas???? Where have you been??? You obviously know nothing of what you propose to support..and-rubber bullets kill..

"children with stones" -I know many of them-now grown-who say they felt so helpless and had only stones-n this was pre-Hamas--a childs reaction to a genocide is his/her own reations...so who is stronger-child with stones-or military with tanks, guns, missles...crazy...stop using Hamas as cover n excuse-this has been going on 60+ years...

Sunday April 26, 2009, 11:54 am
Lindsey-they dont need guns-as you see-rubber bullets have killed just as tear gas canisters-as evidenced. People have right to defend their land lindey-let someone come to your yard, home, community and start tearing down your houses, murdering your family, putting you in a prison-what would you do? Perhaps-the way things are going in this world-you will experience this-Id like to see then-how YOU would react-would you protest-or sit quietly-n say-go ahead-take it all, kill us-we will lie down n die...really-you need to wake up...

Sunday April 26, 2009, 11:57 am
"I didn't have to "be" at the protest, Aisha." Yes you did-to make a remark like this-I know several who WERE at the protest-both Palestinians and Israeli's...the truth is the truth..and the more you deny it-the more you perpetuate the occupation and genocide..once you face the truth, it shall set you free-and unrust your heart...

Sunday April 26, 2009, 11:57 am
But the issue here, Aisha, is whether or not this man was "murdered" in cold blood. And so far no one seems to be able to give any evidence that was the fact. Nor is there any evidence that the Palestinians that continued walking towards the soldiers, despite warnings, weren't suicide bombers (which is hardly an unknown occurrence).

We don't cry murder when there is no evidence.

Sunday April 26, 2009, 11:58 am
Sounds like you haven't looked at the video, Aisha.

Sunday April 26, 2009, 12:03 pm
Suicide bombers-oh please-they are people protecting THEIR LAND!! Evidence-the whole world has evidence -case in point-crimes committed during the Gaza massacre-now it is the West banks turn for hard core tacttics as the settlers move in..you cant see the evidence because you are blinded....blinded people is what keeps ignorance, wars and genocide-alive...
He was murdered....despite your blindness...it still remains what it is...cold blooded murder..

Sunday April 26, 2009, 12:05 pm
"Sounds like you haven't looked at the video, Aisha." Of course I have looked at the video Lindsey-but you see-Iam not blinded...and-I have talked with some who WERE there....and now what? ????

Sunday April 26, 2009, 12:07 pm
I see. And those people who were there were able to read the Israeli solders' minds and know that the canister was INTENDED to hit the protester, unlike all the other canisters which hit no one in the video.

That's the difference between murder and accident - intent.

Sunday April 26, 2009, 12:33 pm
So suicide bombers are an acceptable tactic? How is this going to help end the occupation? It's time for everybody to take a deep breath, cool out and figure out a realistic means to end the occupation. We have a mini example of what's going on there going on here at C2. The more ridiculous the accusations and demands become the more entrenched pro-Israelis and Zionists become. I am not going to begin to think about a solution as long as I feel you want me to die and no one would.

Sunday April 26, 2009, 12:46 pm
Shot at point blank range? NOT!!! HOWEVER the Palestinians or whoever the protesters were did go up to the Israeli soldiers as close as the soldiers would allow [having seen what homicide bombers do].

Intentional - yes, the Palestinians or whoever the protesters were ARE TRYING to INTENTIONALLY provoke the Israeli soldiers.

Here are a few interesting things I noticed. The soldiers are shooting over two fences, not straight at anyone. I don't see the tear gas grenade fired from the Israeli soldiers not do I see it "hit" the man who was "shot". There is an unexploded tear gas grenade, (at least that is what I assume it is), rolling on the ground at about 3:23-3:26 in the video. The camera man is not afraid for his life as he just keeps on photographing. The person on the ground at the feet of the cameraman and the man who was "shot" is not too afraid to be sitting there. Even after this guy is "shot" the man with him is VERY concerned for his cigarette...which is the first thing a person assisting someone who is wounded would throw away. That's enough for now...

Sunday April 26, 2009, 12:52 pm
Of course suicide bombers are NOT an acceptable tactic-neither is genocude n occupation-both are ABHORABLE...
"Genocide will happen if Hamas has their way to weaken Israel and to kill all the Jews." This is pure PARANOIA!! What does Palestine have to defend itself with?? Compared to Israel-who is equipt with heavey arsenals and weapondry from usa-NO comparison- ..

n no David- I do not want you-nor anyone else to die-but this mentality that Israel is pristine pure is ludacris--n that everything going on there -is an illusion -that the world is wrong in what is truth is ignorant..even some of the ppl in and from Israel know the truth and protest-why is this? Some Israeli soliders themselves have COME FORWARD and are condeming what the Israeli gov is doing! WAKE UP! Peace can be for ALL...but the occupation and genocide must stop... Israel must be willing to let the Palestinian have land, live free and let go of land greed and paranoia...only then can peace be for all..

Sunday April 26, 2009, 1:07 pm
OK Aisha, Lets' say I can have my way. I say we are going to withdraw to 1967 borders. How are you going to guarantee my safety?

Sunday April 26, 2009, 1:08 pm
No one is suggesting that Israel is "pristine pure". It isn't. And it never has been (frankly, I don't know of any nation that is pristine in its dealings with others).

I'm in agreement with many who see a two-state solution as the only viable solution and I hope that is what happens - soon.

Sunday April 26, 2009, 1:17 pm
After a "two state" solution is arrived at, what happens when the Hamasholes and HezBOOBlahs start lobbing mortars and rocket grenades into Israel? What happens when the HOMICIDE bombers, (I LOVE the idea of SUICIDE bombers as they would only be killing themselves...heading off to their 72 [male] virgins, but because they kill others, that makes them HOMICIDE bombers aka MURDERERS), continue their murderous ways?

Sunday April 26, 2009, 1:22 pm
Peaceful negotiations and comprise are sure ways to paving roads to reconciliation and more peaceful relations-nothing is gaurenteed as far as safety ANYWHERE!! For ANYONE!! We do not live in a safe utopian world-however-removing provacations and oppression will surely mend relationships-no one want to live in an open air prison-cage up a cat or dog for several weeks and see what happens...besides the animal humane society throwing you in jail for cruelty to animals-you will also see behavioral changes in the caged....however- compromise and negotiations are peace making efforts-holding fast to stifling power and destruction-is not...no one can gaurentee anyones safety anywhere David-but paving roads to peace will surely increase greatly safety for all...

Lindsey-I agree 100% with you on two state solution-freedom and peace for both countries where people can live in harmony with each other and begin to heal and mend the horrors suffered...Once upon a time Jewish, Christian and Muslim women use to sit together in that land, sip tea, chat, and watch each others children---ohhhh it was so long ago-now all the world seems to want is war :( I wish NO country had ANY weapons at all..if you get in fight-and have to-use your fists like a man-ban all weapondry for all countries...

Sunday April 26, 2009, 1:28 pm
Edward, if a two-state solution is achieved, then the justification claimed by Hamas for its attacks on Israelis will no longer exist. If Hamas' attacks resume at that point, it would be a unilateral act of war against Israel. Which would, of course, invite a really devastating response which could hardly be objected to by the international community. Since any nation has the right to defend itself vigorously against a unilateral attack from another nation.

Sunday April 26, 2009, 1:31 pm
Edward-this obession with 72 virgins-"heading off to their 72 [male] virgins, but because they kill others", First of all-it is obvious you do not know Islam, nor read al Qur'an-it is sin to kill or commit suicide-you will go to hell..only way killing is sanctioned is if you are directly attacked-defending your life-to just go kill someone-is SIN...even killing or harming an animal is sin..so you know not what you speak-and the 72 virgins-it is metophically written for pleasures of Jannah (or heaven) for men - however it goes much deeper that superficial statements and thoughts of "72 virgins". If u would like more indepth explanation on this-I will send you article to help you understand....

As far as "After a "two state" solution is arrived at, what happens when the Hamasholes and HezBOOBlahs start lobbing mortars and rocket grenades into Israel?" Palestinians could say the same thing of the Israeli's ..they could be saying-well what if the IDF come and bulldoze our homes again, kill our children, murder our sons and husbands....spray white phosphous (sp) on us again?? but this kind of projection is counterproductive...and this type of thinking is why-there has been no resolution nor peace...

Sunday April 26, 2009, 3:07 pm
"no one can gaurentee anyones safety anywhere David-but paving roads to peace will surely increase greatly safety for all... "

I thought that's what Oslo was about. After Oslo suicide bombings began. I wouldn't put my life into the hands of someone who states publicly that they want to kill all Jews, (Hamas Charter), until I know that my security, if not guaranteed, then as close to guaranteed as I can get.

Sunday April 26, 2009, 5:58 pm
David-you state:

"As long as Israel gets to go in and clean house"
"if Israel gets the blessings to be able to kick the butts"
"and if some Palestinians die during the response, oh well..."
"Israel is not the one who continues to instigate the violence." (not true)

You are too filled with hate to have a rational duscussion with-you are advocating for murder of innocents and you dont care-people with your mentality are the problem-people like you-are the violent ones, yet YOU complain about Hamas...if you feel Hamas wants to kill Jews-you are no different than him--based on your thinking and projected theories-you are same-only on different sides of walls/fences-only you--are not under occupation nor genocide are you?? yet-you stilll advocate for murder...sic
as above statements confirms "and if some Palestinians die during the response, oh well..."

You have no regard for human life-

Human Beings come
from the same source.
We are one family.

If a part of the body hurts,
all parts contract with pain.

If you are not concerned
with another's suffering,
we shall not call you human.

(from the front of the UN building in New York)


Queen Rania of Jordan
My Message of Cross-Cultural Understanding

Sunday April 26, 2009, 6:51 pm
David is of the same mentality that he is fearing -i outlined his thinking process above-
people in Palestine do not want to be killed either--but have been for over 60 years...
This is a genocide-make no mistake..
as far as your statement
"Israel doesn't fight Arabs living in the West Bank."

Why do you think this post has started-look at the video-I can send you hundreds of articles and connect you with people who are living in the West Bank AND are under attack-imprisoning for no reason, setting curfews, murdering, and so on...-in fact-Israel is constructing wire walls there as well as moving Israeli settlers in that land,which is Palestine....

Yes-The West Bank is under attack as well and has been...

Sunday April 26, 2009, 8:30 pm
Aisha I commend your desire for a just two state solution to this awful problem because that is what all fair-minded people would lke to see together with an end to all the killing and violence.
The problem is that as long as Hamas is committed to the destruction of Israel, there is no one for Israel to negotiate with,especially as Hamas and Fatah can't even agree amongst themselves and are evn killing each other.
I'd like to hear your solution to this situation.

Sunday April 26, 2009, 9:09 pm
Aisha Ameena Rafeeq Sunday April 26, 2009, 5:58 pm

Those are MY words and not David's words.

As far as what is on the Useless Nations building...hahahahaha...they are a bunch of nincompoops...seeking whom they can lie cheat and steal from...oil for food anyone? Oh, and as for their concerns with human suffering...hmmm, who are some of the nations on the The UN's Human Rights Council, set up in 2006 to replace the morally bankrupt and discredited UN Commission on Human Rights? How about China, Cuba, Saudi Arabia, and Russia. I rest my case on that one...

Sunday April 26, 2009, 10:46 pm
Hi Aisha, you must be doing something right when the Hasbara yapping lot descend on you in such a fashion.

When the yapping starts it's always good to remind the yappers just what it is they are defending-

''The reason why international consensus today is against blood-based nationalism is that we understand we live in multi-ethnic nations in a multi-ethnic world. And in a world like that, no group can expect exclusive rights. Zionism has always avoided this problem by simply denying that there are any competing rights to take into consideration; as reflected in comments like "a land without a people", "there's no such thing as a Palestinian people", and more subtly in the argument that Zionism is simply a national liberation movement seeking self-determination for the Jewish people.

I hear that last argument used from time to defend Israel against non-Zionists. The logic goes like this: Zionism is simply a national liberation movement for Jews, who are simply a people like any other, seeking self-determination in a state of their own.
This is an eminently reasonable thing to do; in fact, it is what every people wants. As it is so normal and so rational, the only reason that anyone would object to it must be that the people seeking self-determination in this case happen to be Jews. Therefore the people who resist Zionism do so out of antisemitism. Q.E.D.. The problem with this line of reasoning is that it is based on a profoundly defective description of Zionism.

Zionism is not a project for Jewish self-determination; it is a a project for Jewish self-determination in Palestine, a land with a preexisting overwhelmingly non-Jewish population.'' ''

http://www.care2.com/news/member/130107083/1109234

Monday April 27, 2009, 5:05 am
i keep seeing this statment "Hamas is committed to the destruction of Israel" could someone please show me where is it written so. Hammas want 67 boundaries, the release of political prisoners, openeing of trade routes.
R/e hammas hiding behind political demos i did not see any on that film perhaps this is rumour also.

Monday April 27, 2009, 5:28 am
Since you asked, Pete, Hamas' commitment to the destruction of Israel and the belief that Muslim Palestinians have the right to all of Palestine is fully set forth in its most fundamental document: its founding charter. Among that Charter's many statements are included:

"...the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah's promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim)"

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it. No Arab country nor the aggregate of all Arab countries, and no Arab King or President nor all of them in the aggregate, have that right, nor has that right any organization or the aggregate of all organizations, be they Palestinian or Arab, because Palestine is an Islamic Waqf throughout all generations and to the Day of Resurrection. Who can presume to speak for all Islamic Generations to the Day of Resurrection? This is the status [of the land] in Islamic Shari'a, and it is similar to all lands conquered by Islam by force, and made thereby Waqf lands upon their conquest, for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection."

"The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinct Palestinian Movement which owes its loyalty to Allah, derives from Islam its way of life and strives to RAISE THE BANNER OF ALLAH OVER EVERY INCH OF PALESTINE."

"Hamas regards Nationalism (Wataniyya) as part and parcel of the religious faith. Nothing is loftier or deeper in Nationalism than waging Jihad against the enemy and confronting him when he sets foot on the land of the Muslims."

"[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad."

"There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility."

"We must imprint on the minds of generations of Muslims that the Palestinian problem is a religious one, to be dealt with on this premise."

"Those Zionist organizations control vast material resources, which enable them to fulfill their mission amidst societies, with a view of implementing Zionist goals and sowing the concepts that can be of use to the enemy. Those organizations operate [in a situation] where Islam is absent from the arena and alienated from its people. Thus, the Muslims must fulfill their duty in confronting the schemes of those saboteurs. When Islam will retake possession of [the means to] guide the life [of the Muslims], it will wipe out those organizations which are the enemy of humanity and Islam."

As well as quite a bit else.

http://www.acpr.org.il/resources/hamascharter.html

Monday April 27, 2009, 6:13 am
Further, Pete:

"There was no flexibility with Rayyan [a Hamas leader]. This is what he said when I asked him if he could envision a 50-year hudna (or cease-fire) with Israel: "The only reason to have a hudna is to prepare yourself for the final battle. We don't need 50 years to prepare ourselves for the final battle with Israel." There is no chance, he said, that true Islam would ever allow a Jewish state to survive in the Muslim Middle East. "Israel is an impossibility. It is an offense against God."

http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/01/nizar_rayyan_of_hamas_on_gods.php

"The Hamas Charter quotes Hasan al-Banna, the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood: “Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors.”

In saying that “Islam” will eliminate Israel, Hamas, which identifies itself in the Charter as the Muslim Brotherhood’s Palestine chapter, echoes another Muslim Brotherhood document -- one in which the organization vows to work in America toward “eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and ‘sabotaging’ its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God’s religion” -- that is, Islam -- “is made victorious over all other religions.” That is a political statement, not solely a religious one: it is a declaration of intent to bring Islamic law, Sharia, to America, and enforce here its codified discrimination against women and non-Muslims, and its denial of the freedom of speech and the freedom of conscience.

Yet at the same time, it is a religious statement, like those in the Hamas Charter. The fact that those who are waging jihad warfare against Israel and the United States believe that they are carrying out divine commands ensures that neither jihad will end with changes in economic conditions, or with a negotiated settlement. While Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal has indicated a willingness to enter into a long-term truce with Israel, he also told Iranian supremo Ali Khamenei in May 2008 that “the Palestinian nation will continue its resistance despite all pressures and will not under any circumstances stop its jihad.”

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=30170

"Newly-installed Palestinian Authority Foreign Minister Mahmoud Zahar on Sunday reiterated Hamas's desire to eliminate Israel and replace it with an Islamic state.

'I dream of hanging a huge map of the world on the wall at my Gaza home which does not show Israel on it,' Zahar said in the interview. "I hope that our dream to have our independent state on all historic Palestine (will materialize).'"

This dream, he added, "will become real one day. I'm certain of this because there is no place for the state of Israel on this land."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1143498785513&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter

Monday April 27, 2009, 8:34 am
Aisha, I hope you realize that you misquoted me and that I never said the things you say I did.

Monday April 27, 2009, 9:56 am
Salaam David-
Iam sorry-Edward stated these things-I do apologize for my mistake-I read both your posts before commenting and cited wrongly-
the post is therefore directed at Edward and I do apologize

Salaam Pete M & Pete O-shokran for your input-it is too bad that yes, we have to remind them of what they are defending-it just goes around in circles with no productive outcome-and most-really do not want to understand the reality of their positions and how ludacris it is in the face of a reality which the whole world knows..
Pete O-I have found that most tend to hide behind the Hamas theories they have imbedded in their minds-for as long as they can blame hamas-they dont have to face the crimes which are being committed by Israel-however as we know-this has been 60+ years genocide--before hamas....Hamas is their only facade-and they have twisted his ideologies as well-if hamas ceased to exist-they would not have a defense-as poor as this one is...further-as stated-every nation-people have right to defend themselves from attacks, genocide and massacres-the Palestinians also have this right-do they expect the Palestinians to just lie down and die quiety? If Israel committed these atrocites in any other country-they surely would be defeated as no other country would permit it-however as they have confiscated the land, imprisioned the people-began a genocide-Palestinians are in weak military position... and have little defense or means of protecting themselves-thus this makes Israel the aggressor and bully-If Hamas were not in the equation as a resistence fighter-Israel would not have fabricated lies to stand on. If hamas were not in existence-then another group would be because you just cannot take freedom away from people, lock them in the worlds largest open air prision-deprive them of basic needs, murder them and conduct ethnic cleansing without someone responding in defense/resistence. It is not human nature to lie placidly while your being attacked, your homes and land taken and your freedoms taken away--starving people to death is also a tactic of genocide-recall the recent Aid to Gaza from countries and organizations which consisted of much needed food and staples-tons of it-which were allowed to sit n rot at the border as Israel would not let it in-that is a shame...'I have heard posts claiming there is no hamas is the West Bank-therefore no problems in the West Bank-this is a big joke as everyone knows what is and what has been going on in the West Bank..hence-this video and article of Bassem being murdered while protesting...if there is no problem in the West Bank-why is Israel there?? Why would there be a need for a protest?? GET OUT ISRAEL!! Why are you there?
There are many well documented citations from Israeli leaders callling for the death of all Palestinians, to either kill them or drive them out..these citations can be provided upon request-it is Israel who wants death to all Palestinians-not the other way around...
As Pete O stated "Hammas want 67 boundaries, the release of political prisoners, openeing of trade routes. "-Hamas proposed this several times and was ignored..and his requests were not unreasonable...If Israel were to agree and go back to 67 borders and get out of Gaza and the West Bank-it would kill their delusional ideology that the whole land belongs to them and hence they would not be able to take it all over...Israel will not let go of this delusion, nor stop the genocide until they have all the land-therefore-they cannot commit to a peace treaty-as documented and broadcast on news-Israel broke the ceasefire to instigate and begin the latest massacre in Gaza-this is not a move which is conducive to peace-it is provacation to justify massacre..
Iam tired of debating known facts concerning Israel's genocide of the Palestinians-it can be denied till hell freezes over-but what is truth-stands for all to see. The world is watching-and God is watching...

Monday April 27, 2009, 10:27 am
Aisha, you state your position with passion, much pain and frustration. Once again I ask how do you suggest ending this occupation? Denying Hamas' published and well documented position on this is a non-starter. To do so denies the frustration and pain of your adversary. "Acceptance is the answer to all of our problems" the big book of AA says. Israelis and diaspora Jews can not continue denying your frustration and pain and Palestinians and Arabs can not deny frustration and pain Israeli's feel. Nobody is all right and nobody is all wrong.
What can we agree on? I can't deny your feelings, thoughts and national aspirations nor can you deny Israel's. It seems to me every time somebody starts down the road of peace someone else sabotages it.Can you really expect Israel to accept a position that starts with " give us back all of the land and then we'll talk"? It is certainly a legitimate question as to why Israel continues to build on the West bank. Why should you trust Israeli's that confiscate land and water?
Everybody can come up with zillions of questions that can get in the way, that's easy. The really tough question is what can everyone agree on?
I know that I don't have the answer yet that doesn't mean it shouldn't be worked on.

Monday April 27, 2009, 10:39 am
So, why isn't anyone responding to my points made on Sunday April 26, 2009, 12:46 pm?

Monday April 27, 2009, 1:52 pm
Aisha; 'I am tired of debating known facts concerning Israel's genocide of the Palestinians-it can be denied till hell freezes over-but what is truth-stands for all to see.''

So true, as is the rest of your excellent post!

You cannot currently send a star to Aisha Ameena because you have done so within the last week.

Monday April 27, 2009, 2:38 pm
I am interested in the accusation of murder when the video clearly shows an accident. Of course, people who want to see murder would see it if the demonstrator had stabbed himself in the chest and then an Israeli soldier tried to help him would be accused of stabbing him.

As for the 72 virgins, this comes across in the plays that kindergarden children perform for their parents, in the instructions given in the ilitary training camps for 8 year olds and I could continue. I see this information on Arab Television and the indoctrination starts with very little children being instructed by their version of Micley Mouse.

Aisha, how can anyone even consider negotiating peace with nations of people who brainwash their children this way? As for the two state solution, why does only Israel have to give up land? Over 90% of the original land called Palestine was taken by Jordan. Why do Israel abusers never ever ask Jordan to hand land back? Or

Monday April 27, 2009, 2:40 pm
"Israel's genocide of the Palestinians"...HAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHHHAAAAA!!!! Why is it you don't call the attacking of Israel by the Hamasholes and HezBOOBlahs genocide? Now THAT'S genocide!!! Gee, maybe the world isn't up in arms about "Israel's genocide of the Palestinians" being genocide because it ISN'T genocide!!!

Monday April 27, 2009, 2:43 pm
Just another fine example of Palestinian propaganda to brainwash the masses of their people. A yes, and most of the ignoble supporters of theirs are represented in the comment section too, as usual.

Monday April 27, 2009, 6:17 pm
Edward the reason no one is replying to your earlier post or to mine for that matter is that they have no answers or solutions. They search the net until they find some anti-Israel article,copy and paste most of it, don't offer any constructive opinions and then write personal insults about anybody who has the cheek to question them. Fortunately C2 is removing these much more quickly.
I firmly believe that they would hate to see a resolution to the Israel-Palestine problem because many would have no reason to get out of bed in the morning.

Tuesday April 28, 2009, 11:09 am
I am not copying and pasting-I am speaking. I only see Lindsey copied and pasted-but I think that was to illustrate her point...so?? I do not need to "search the net" for responses. This is not about being anti-Israel-this is about genocide-remove the flags and see the facts- Further-Iam not on care24-7 like some of you -I work, go to school and have two childen to care for-my responses come when I have time. Iam not on your clock. All questions have been answered and positions stated. There is no need to go around in circles concerning this. No one here was insulted-nor disrespected by me-however some posts concerning 72 virgins and misguided info on how Palestinian children are taught as well as people saying "and if some Palestinians die during the response, oh well" was cold blooded and hateful..I would never say that about Israeli's -but again-we are from different mind-sets...advocating for the murder of anyone is deploarable...As far as solution-yes that was answered-please re-read the thread-it concerns a two state-solution. It is a waste of time to keep rehashing the same issues when they have already been discussed. If we are in disareement-that is fine-it is common in debates-however it does not diminish each persons right to an opinion and beliefs and to state it respectfully.
Edward, Cal & Stan I do hope someday you will learn how to effectively engage in productive meaningful debates & conversations as your posts are not taken seriously as they are written in a hateful and shallow demeanor-when debating-try not to insult, assume nor insult-learn how to present your thoughts in a professional way and they will be taken more serious and consideration of your input will be responded to-we are not in grade school we are supposed to be rationale adults who can formualate a thought, present it, and provide constructive feedback without bantering or accusing....Iam considering this post completed as each has had the opportunity to voice opinions-and they were responded to.
I wish the best to all of you in your missive.

Tuesday April 28, 2009, 1:31 pm
Aisha Ameena Rafeeq, please feel free to look up the meanings of obfuscation and bloviation and then go and pour yourself a nice cold glass of Kool-Aid and read your post on Tuesday April 28, 2009, 11:09 am. Now you can take a look at my post on Sunday April 26, 2009, 12:46 pm and respond to my comments. When you perform this second task [of reading my post and responding to my comments] that is engaging in "productive meaningful debates & conversations" as you put it.

Tuesday April 28, 2009, 5:47 pm
Hey sis, don't waste time feeding the trolls they are bloodsuckers that multiply like flies-as you can see. Submit more articles instead. Another Palestinian Gandhi murdered and the whole world suffers (at least those with half a heart!). God bless Bassem Aburahma, may other peaceful "elephants" have more success. Stay human, Zahra

Tuesday April 28, 2009, 11:33 pm
Well said Zahra,!
Aisha , your eloquent and informative comments are what attracts the barking lot . Keep up the good work and remember that if they aren't barking at you then you're doing something wrong!

Come and join us at http://www.care2.com/c2c/group/Petes_Political_Book_Club

Wednesday April 29, 2009, 1:03 am
Edward. Remember the quote from the bible..........." And some fell on stony ground "

Wednesday April 29, 2009, 3:22 am
Edward; On the subject of not responding to comments , here's one that I wouldn't mind hearing a response to-

''Don't you find it the' least bit troubling' the fact that the use of flechettes is banned in the West Bank because of the risk of hitting Jews but not in Gaza, where there are none?

What does this fact say about the country for which you lot frequently post Israeli govt propaganda as truth, and attack others for their opposing views based on actual FACTS from organisations like HRW, AI, B'Tselem?

I'm all ears. ''

http://www.care2.com/news/member/130107083/1089387

http://www.care2.com/news/member/130107083/1090253

(both links worth checking to see Edward the mighty alsations hypocrisy exposed by a mere squirrel, and a telling example of the level of ignorance we're dealing with here when BTselem is referred to as a 'hate group' ).

Wednesday April 29, 2009, 5:15 am
It makes a great deal of sense, Pete, not to use a weapon in situations where it might injure your own side.

Wednesday April 29, 2009, 7:42 am
Pete M Wednesday April 29, 2009, 3:22 am

"Edward; On the subject of not responding to comments , here's one that I wouldn't mind hearing a response to-

''Don't you find it the' least bit troubling' the fact that the use of flechettes is banned in the West Bank because of the risk of hitting Jews but not in Gaza, where there are none?"

Hey Pete, that would be like using an atomic bomb on the Japanese living in America during WWII to stop Japan. DUH!!!

Wednesday April 29, 2009, 9:25 am
Lindsey- The people we're talking about here are CIVILIANS , who as far as I am aware under international law are not to be considered as being on anyones 'side'. In fact I'm pretty sure that treating them as being on someones side in a military situation is a war crime. Do you support war crimes Lindsey?

Your brief comment above reveals plenty about your attitude towards Palestinians , which is unfortunately all too common amongst Israeli apologists.

If it is considered unacceptable for the IDF to use flechette shells in populated areas of the West Bank for fear of hitting 'herrenvolk' Jewish CIVILIANS , then it is clearly unacceptable to use them in populated areas of Gaza for fear of hitting 'untermensch' Palestinian CIVILIANS. No? (you may object to my language , but hey , you're the one who's defending the IDFs right to shower innocent civilians (as long as they're only PALESTINIAN innocents) with flechettes.
( I'm sorry , I just realised there's no such thing as an 'innocent' Palestinian to you lot. My mistake.)

This is just one of too many examples of the inevitably racist nature of a 'Jewish state' in Palestine that you guys spend so much time defending.
It's inevitable cos at the beginning of the Zionist project, 95% of the indigenous population was non Jewish, requiring the ethnic cleansing of approx 750 000 Palestinians in '47/48 to artificially create a Jewish majority in Israel.

The only way to retain this Jewish majority is by depriving non-Jews of their basic human rights by
ethnic cleansing, restrictions on travel, denial of full citizenship, restrictions on land ownership, home demolitions, torture, extra judicial executions , mass imprisonment and mass murder as seen recently in Gaza.

Taken with the total erasure of hundreds of Palestinian towns & villages and destruction of maps, deeds and other historical documents that referred to them in an attempt to obliterate all record of their existence , it is correct to use the term 'genocide'. (genocide doesn't only mean the killing of a population, it means actions taken with the intent to destroy a peoples culture and identity.)

All this guff about not being able to talk to Hamas/Arafat/PLO/terrorists is just a distraction- Israel has to deny Palestinians equal rights in order to protect its Jewish identity.

Israel will do this whether Palestinians resist Israels illegal occupation or not because the Palestinians biggest 'crime' in the eyes of Zionists is that they simply exist .

Hi Edward , I see from your avi that you're 'all ears' too! ;-)

Wednesday April 29, 2009, 11:10 am
Describe to me, Pete, exactly how one can attack a military target in Gaza or the West Bank without endangering civilians. Considering the denseness of the population and the fact that the combatants fire from civilian locations, it can't be done. And how many civilians have actually been killed by flechette shells? The last count I saw (contained in the article whose link you provided above), ending in February of 2003, stated that up to nine Palestinian civilians had been killed by flechettes. Sad that any civilian is killed in wartime; however, that hardly makes them weapons of mass destruction.

Of course, it IS possible to avoid killing civilians through suicide bombing.....for some reason, however, killing innocent civilians through those means appears to be the goal of the bomber.

Wednesday April 29, 2009, 11:33 am
Lindsey O Wednesday April 29, 2009, 11:10 am

THERE YOU GO AGAIN!!! Trying to confound the discussion with facts...

Thursday April 30, 2009, 1:23 am
Lindsey; ''Considering the denseness of the population....'' is all I have to hear. Flechettes are an indiscriminate weapon whose use is prohibited in populated areas, whether the population is Jewish or Arab.

Edward; One of Lindseys many alleged 'facts' is; ''Israel doesn't have a policy of using 'human shields'', (which BTW isn't quite a 'fact'.) ;-)

Thursday April 30, 2009, 3:21 am
"Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits, but according to who does them. There is almost no kind of outrage-----torture, imprisonment without trial, assassination, the bombing of civilians-----which does not change its moral color when it is committed by 'our' side. The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them." -----George Orwell

Thursday April 30, 2009, 4:55 am
You've gotta hand it to this guy - he's dedicated, I'll give him that. So much so that he can complain of "indiscriminate" Israeli weapons which may concurrently harm civilians, while remaining silent about Hamas rockets which are deliberately fired INDISCRIMINATELY at Israeli towns filled with civilians (let alone suicide bombers whose sole intent is to kill civilians).

I'd say such dedication should definitely be rewarded with at least a virgin or two in the afterlife.

Thursday April 30, 2009, 7:18 am
Salaam my habibi Aisha and Shukran for this "truthful" article dear sis. It really doesn't matter what others here have to say, as "everyone" is entitled to their opinion. I have an opinion as well and here is mine:

When the discussion starts becoming "ugly" with words that are obviously from "haters" then it's time to just let it go hon. You did a brave thing by coming forward with this video and all of your words of "peace", unlike many here that seem to not mind the "killings of the innocent" and turn their heads the other way pretending not to see "truth" in front of their faces, you see the truth my friend, so do I.

What I saw in this video {and I did watch it all} was a man called Bassem, calling out for non-violence, that is all...and for that he is "killed", yes...murdered, in my eyes. Maybe, marching towards the soldiers was not the correct thing to do, but in Bassem's eyes, it was the only thing to do, he died for his beliefs.

These "voices" that speak with such hatred for others will go unheard because their words have no value in the real human world. They have nothing better to do than deny the "facts", they need to get a life & stop "spreading the hate". I am w/Zahra on not feeding the trolls. Love to you my sister in soul. I applaud you for your courage.

ONELOVE, ONEHEART, ONEUNITY!

Peace is ours...nuff said!
FreeSpirit...

Thursday April 30, 2009, 8:25 am
Thank you Free Spirit -''These "voices" that speak with such hatred for others will go unheard because their words have no value in the real human world. They have nothing better to do than deny the "facts" ''

Lindsey; The last count I saw stated that up to 20 Israeli civilians had been killed by Islamic Jihad , Al Aqsa & Hamas rockets in the last 8 yrs. Sad that any civilian is killed in wartime; however, that hardly makes them weapons of mass destruction.

As you are fully aware , I unreservedly condemn ALL ( indiscriminate or otherwise) attacks on ANY civilians, which is more than can be said for you.

You still haven't responded to the question- ''Don't you find it the' least bit troubling' the fact that the use of flechettes is banned in the West Bank because of the risk of hitting Jews but not in Gaza, where there are none?"

A simple yes or no is all that is required.

Currently I'm of the impression that you don't find it troubling in the least.

Thursday April 30, 2009, 8:35 am
I already answered that question, Pete. No, I don't find it troubling - because that's standard in warfare. An army does not tend to use weapons likely to cause injury or death in their own ranks or population.

Just as Hamas is unlikely to fire a rocket at an Israeli soldier standing in the middle of a Gaza street - but will cheerfully fire rockets at Israeli towns. Because, of course, those Israeli towns don't contain Hamas' own people.

It is sensible in the extreme for any military to modify their tactics when in situations dealing with their own personnel and citizens.

And YOU still haven't answered my question - explain to me how it is possible to attack combatants in Gaza in any practical fashion without risking collateral civilian injuries or deaths.

Saturday May 2, 2009, 3:05 am
Are you saying the only 'practical' way to attack combatants in Gaza is the totally counter productive tactic of showering the civilian population with lethal darts? The IDF seem to manage ok in the West Bank without them...

In answer to your question, the IDF has special forces , including snipers who could be deployed overlooking potential rocket launching sites. They also have helicopters they could use as a sniping platform. (tho admittedly the snipers would have to refrain from shooting kids to pass the time, which could prove difficult going by their past record.) They could also negotiate a ceasefire, which Hamas has a good record of keeping to.

Anyway , thanks for your candour in admitting that the IDFs practice of deciding who qualifies for the protections afforded civilians under international law by virtue of their race doesn't trouble you.
I don't think the defence of 'hey , they weren't OUR civilians' in the event of their being brought to trial for this would cut much ice tho.

BTW , does this mean that Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al Aqsa brigade can use that excuse to defend their rocket attacks- 'Hey , how can we attack targets in Israel in any 'practical fashion' without firing indiscriminate rockets at populated areas, and anyway they're not OUR civilians so they don't really count'....

Just another example of the many unjustifiable act that you have to attempt to justify if you're a zionist.

Saturday May 2, 2009, 5:12 am
MURDER: The unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse.

Murder is perhaps the single most serious criminal offense. Depending on the circumstances surrounding the killing, a person who is convicted of murder may be sentenced to many years in prison, a prison sentence with no possibility of Parole, or death.

The precise definition of murder varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Under the Common Law, or law made by courts, murder was the unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought. The term malice aforethought did not necessarily mean that the killer planned or premeditated on the killing, or that he or she felt malice toward the victim. Generally, malice aforethought referred to a level of intent or reck-lessness that separated murder from other killings and warranted stiffer punishment.

The definition of murder has evolved over several centuries. Under most modern statutes in the United States, murder comes in four varieties: (1) intentional murder; (2) a killing that resulted from the intent to do serious bodily injury; (3) a killing that resulted from a depraved heart or extreme recklessness; and (4) murder committed by an Accomplice during the commission of, attempt of, or flight from certain felonies.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He is calling out to the soldiers on the other side of the fence “Do not shoot, do not shoot.

Basem posed no threat to the security of Israel as he stood atop that hill. He was not armed, nor was he throwing stones. Ironically, he was calling out to the Israeli forces to hold their fire because children and internationals were present, when he was shot. He was involved in a non-violent demonstration when his own life was so violently taken

For three years now the residents of Bil’in have protested the annexation of their land by Israel’s so-called “security fence.” This barrier has effectively annexed roughly 60% of Bil’in’s farming land to the Israeli side. The villagers rely almost exclusively on agriculture for their livelihoods

The Israeli army’s claim that this is a security measure is simply preposterous. One doesn’t have to look far across the barrier in Bil’in to see what the land is being stolen for – the extension of yet another illegal settlement. In this case, the Matityahu East neighborhood of the Modi’in Ilit settlement.

Bil’in has become somewhat of an inspiration and example in the West Bank for its now famous weekly protests. The small village has also gained international recognition for its steadfastness and commitment to non-violent protest, as documented in the award-winning film, “Bil’in Habibity” (Bil’in My Love).

The villagers, along with international and even Israeli demonstrators, have faithfully upheld their weekly protests every single Friday, without exception, for the last three years. While these demonstrations are strictly non-violent and consist mainly of chanting, waving the Palestinian flag and attempting to access the confiscated land, the response from Israeli forces is always harsh.

Every week demonstrators are showered with copious amounts of rubber coated steel bullets and teargas. In another West Bank village, Ni’lin, four youths were shot dead in separate incidents by Israeli soldiers last year, also while protesting against the barrier in their village.

Lately, however, Israeli troops have employed a new and deadly tactic in an effort to quell protest. This involves the use of a new, high-velocity teargas canister which is being shot directly at protestors. These canisters are relatively quiet when fired, emitting only a faint smoke trail, which makes them difficult to detect. In addition, their 400 meter range makes them lethal when fired directly at people.

This is the same type of teargas canister which nearly killed 37 year old American activist Tristan Anderson in Ni’lin on 13 March 2009 when he was shot directly in the face from 60 meters away. He remains in a coma in a Tel Aviv hospital.

Though these canisters are meant to be fired upwards in an arc-like projection, Israeli soldiers have realized their deadly potential and are using them as bullets, probably in an attempt to disguise their intentions by not shooting ordinary ammunition.

While Tristan Anderson remains in a serious coma, he was lucky to escape with his life. Basem however, was not as fortunate. And because he is Palestinian, the mainstream international media will not be interested in his case. He is simply not important enough

I wonder just how much more the collective Palestinian spirit can take before another mass uprising.

For now, the resilience of Bil’in lives on. The next day, hundreds turned out for Basem’s funeral. His body, draped in the Palestinian flag, hoisted above them. Held aloft by chants of “Ash Shaheed Habibullah” (The martyr is beloved by God). Moving briskly to its resting place where so many have been taken before.

And while Palestine waits patiently for the international community to stand by its side, the fearless people of Bil’in will be out again this Friday. Ready to sacrifice their blood and their souls for something very simple – just to have returned what has, and always will rightfully be theirs.

Basem is the eighteenth Palestinian to be killed in non-violent anti-wall demonstration in the West Bank since 2004.

Saturday May 2, 2009, 6:26 am
It does my heart good to know that there are still "real people" here, as you can see, and not haters, but they have their "blinders" off and can see the forest through the trees.

SHUKRAN my sisters & brothers, you know who you are! Blessings of love & light to you for caring for another fellow human being, no matter what race, religion, or country they come from, clearly this was MURDER...

May the soul of Bassem be remembered for what he believed in, & may he rest now in peace. Assalamualikem.

Shukran again Aisha my beautiful sista for caring enough about another human being in the world to have written this article hon.

Blessings to ALL in the Universe...Mitakuye Oyasin "WE ARE ONE"
FreeSpiritRunning...Shafiyya Mubarakah

Saturday May 2, 2009, 2:06 pm
Aisha, thank you for posting this article and all your great comments. Your patience is admirable :)

The pro-genocide gang cannot convince anyone but themselves, with their "broken record" denials that Israel is not responsible for any murder, and that they have just been protecting themselves.... from the big bad wolf (that they have helped create).

Their "reputable" sources tell them that this man threw himself at the cannister, and Tristan Anderson did the same, (just like Rachel Corrie threw herself under the bulldozer?). And that the Palestinian civilians just love suffering and merrily bring all the tragedies upon themselves.

Only that this man (unarmed) was protesting against a Separation Wall. Against APARTHEID. You know?? I've had that conversation with the pro-Genocide gang before - they seem to be fans of Separation Walls. They should have been born in Cyprus to see what it's like to have a Separation wall (thanks to Turkey who stole almost half of Cyprus), to see if this is really that nice. Or born in Gaza.

Let's suppose this man was killed "by mistake" and that the Israeli soldiers never intended to hurt anyone (even though they were hurling cannisters at people!), where are the apologies from the Israeli soldiers?

Now the pro-genocide gang has gone one step further, explaining that *some* civilians are *more* civilians that *others*. That some civilians deserve protective measures and others don't. Of course according to their pro-genocide stand, the latter are the Palestinians.

This is blatant racism.

Lindsey doesn't find it "troubling" "that the use of flechettes is banned in the West Bank because of the risk of hitting Jews but not in Gaza, where there are none".

But of course! Lindsey, to you and your friends, hitting the human beings in Gaza is OK, because it is just "collateral damage". So you condone what the Israeli military does. It sounds like to you and to them, Palestinians are subhumans, compared to Israeli people who need to come first. The Elite?

Lindsey you also added "Just as Hamas is unlikely to fire a rocket at an Israeli soldier standing in the middle of a Gaza street - but will cheerfully fire rockets at Israeli towns. Because, of course, those Israeli towns don't contain Hamas' own people. "

Are you sure? What a strange comment coming from the side who vocally supports the theory that Hamas repeatedly use Palestinian children and families as human shields.

Now to the 1 million dollar question "explain to me how it is possible to attack combatants in Gaza in any practical fashion without risking collateral civilian injuries or deaths."

If you believe it is NOT possible, then DO NOT support the Israeli attacks. Ask Israel to at least stop using such weapons.

War has become so common that people can easily become immune to the horror of what it must be like to be a civilian, a family, a terrorized child, in a war zone. As far as it doesn't happen to them, they don't care. Some people are horrified when a few Israeli citizens are killed (it IS horrible) but they don't seem to mind at all when thousands of Palestinians suffer a nightmare and a very large number have been killed. That's RACIST.


Edward, you complained no one responded to your questions, well, it's hard to take you seriously. You think your little name calling is smart, but it is RACIST.

And as if it wasn't enough, the atrocities committed against innocent Palestinian populations (human beings, remember?) make you** laugh**. "Israel's genocide of the Palestinians"...HAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHHHAAAAA!!!!"
This topic sure puts you in a good mood. So typical. It's not the first time you' ve made fun of the deaths of civilians (always Palestinians).

Which planet do you come from? Where were you when the international outcry against the bombing of Gaza was so loud it could have been heard from space? and while the Palestinian population was killed and maimed more every day, the word GENOCIDE was used again and again by Human Rights organisations and millions of people round the world, regardless of race and nationality?
Don't answer. It's not from a planet, it's from a place that's called FASCISM.

There's a "technical error" posting on this thread, but I'll just ignore it: it's only rehashing *OLD* comments.
That's probably why Care2 named it PAST member :p

To Aisha and Pete and other great members :) you have posted terrific comments, they are a breath of fresh air! Many thanks to you for maintaining a good degree of sanity, decency and humanity in this thread, and others!

Saturday May 2, 2009, 2:06 pm
shooting ''point blank" also means shot horizonitally, and that rise and fall in the projectile's flight need not be considered, or that it be straigtforward, it doesn't have to be very close range. why don't you look it up

This has been posted time and again: Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.

any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
– Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2[2]

In fact, this has been happening since the international community conceded with the zionists to create the state of israel and the Nakba started, the ethnic cleasning started, and yes Jews, Christians, Muslems, co-existed until the zionist agenda started moving in to take Palestine with zionist terrorist groups that bombed civilians, hotels, etc and they were doing that prior to 1948.. Also the wars, in actual fact tell a different story than Israeli zionist propoganda would have you believe and teach in their schools:


Israel at 61: Denial of Nakba Catastrophe Is at the Root of the 'Conflict' | Rabble.Ca

Jews here think that they are continuing the path of [Zionism founder, Theodor] Hertzel … You're talking here about a demographic problem and that is the basis of racism. If Jews don't relate to the Nakba as a one-time event, maybe they will understand what is happening today."

A peace agreement cannot begin to take shape until the systemic denial of history is reversed. As our first Prime Minister put it, "If I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. This is natural, as we have taken their country. There has been anti-Semitism, Nazis, but was that their fault? They see only one thing, we have come here and stolen their country, why should they accept that?"

Saturday May 2, 2009, 2:34 pm
The hyperbole is quite amazing, isn't it, Edward? Support of Israel equals considering Palestinians to be "subhuman." Do you think that means anyone who supports the Palestinian side considers Israelis to be subhuman as well? I wouldn't personally have thought pro-Palestinians automatically see Israelis as subhuman, but I guess Brigitte knows best.....

Saturday May 2, 2009, 2:41 pm
Spread the love, not the hate.

"E me nv"..."Ameena", Amen...and so it is.

FreeSpiritRunning

Saturday May 2, 2009, 3:52 pm
Lindsey, do all the cartwheels you want trying to avoid and distort what I said, but it will not change what you said earlier. Your comments were clear and self explanatory.

Better not try and put words in my mouth, it makes you look worse - except in Edward's eyes :P

In case you did not know, one can support Israel without supporting Genocide. What about the Israeli citizens who love the country they live in, they support it, yet they do not supporting the genocidal tactics of the government against the population in Gaza; and they don't agree with the choice of weapons used.

As for me I will be happy when the Israeli population AND the Palestinian population stop being hurt.
I don't know if or when it can happen, maybe it is just a dream, but this is what I hope for.

In my comment above I was careful to use the phrase " pro Genocide", and not "pro Israel" . You are the one who's just equated pro Genocide with pro Israel :)

Also kindly note that I was referring to your and your friends' attitude here, not throwing blanket judgments on ethnicities and pitting them against one another as you've just done.

No one is a subhuman to me: each life is valuable and sacred, especially when they are innocent civilians.
I do not advocate violence, unlike you who seem to condone and justify the use of the most horrid weapons.

The Palestinians's rights have been abused so much in every way that it is impossible for anyone who believes in EQUAL human rights for ALL not to support them.
Sadly you've made it clear whose lives you value most.

As if one had to choose! ALL humans have a right to life and to hope.

Saturday May 2, 2009, 4:00 pm

Well said, Brigitte!

Saturday May 2, 2009, 4:11 pm
If you do "not advocate violence", Brigitte, then any self-defensive action cannot be advocated either. Because self-defense involves violence.

And you believe the Palestinians to be fighting a war for self-defense. And, while you deplore violence, I assume you reluctantly accept their use of violent means because you believe their cause to be justified. I may, of course, be wrong in that assumption. If so, then I would assume you advocate that the Palestinians lay down their arms immediately, no matter what Israel may or may not do.

So, Brigitte - do you reluctantly accept violence as a means of self-defense?

Saturday May 2, 2009, 4:26 pm

If each side believes they are being represented by leaders from a superior logical level . . . why are EITHER resorting to violence?

Saturday May 2, 2009, 4:35 pm
Because they're human, Carole. And that's what humans have always done when they feel threatened enough. Or when they want something badly enough. Or when they feel they can get away with it. Or when they are filled with religious zeal. Or for a hundred and one other reasons.

Hopefully we're evolving more and more towards a world where violence won't be seen as the solution to our problems. But we're a long ways off from that, I'm afraid.

Saturday May 2, 2009, 6:03 pm
Brigitte T Saturday May 2, 2009, 2:06 pm

"The pro-genocide gang cannot convince anyone but themselves, with their "broken record" denials that Israel is not responsible for any murder, and that they have just been protecting themselves...."

So anyone who supports Israel defending herself is pro-genocide?

"Only that this man (unarmed) was protesting against a Separation Wall."

How do you know that he was unarmed? He was not on camera the whole time. What proof do you have?

"Edward, you complained no one responded to your questions, well, it's hard to take you seriously. You think your little name calling is smart, but it is RACIST."

Racist? No. Disrespectful? Absolutely. I have no respect for anyone whose purpose is to murder someone, which is the intent of the Hamasholes and HezBOOBlahs. The Israelis, however, make every attempt to avoid killing innocent civilians. Yes, there is always one or two idiots in every group, but the goal of the Israelis is not to kill innocent civilians, whereas the goal of the Hamasholes and HezBOOBlahs is.

In addition, my post on Sunday April 26, 2009, 12:46 pm does not mention the Hamasholes and HezBOOBlahs, so your point was not valid.

"And as if it wasn't enough, the atrocities committed against innocent Palestinian populations (human beings, remember?) make you** laugh**. "Israel's genocide of the Palestinians"...HAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHHHAAAAA!!!!"
This topic sure puts you in a good mood. So typical. It's not the first time you' ve made fun of the deaths of civilians (always Palestinians)."

Nope, I do/did no such thing as to make fun of the deaths of civilians. My "HAHAs" was in response to Pete M using the phrase, "Israel's genocide of the Palestinians". I even clarified it in the posting I made. It is your own twisting of my words and your view that anyone who defends Israel's position of defending herself as evil, vile, horrible, cold-hearted, mean, etc., that makes you see me in that light.

Saturday May 2, 2009, 10:47 pm
Sorry Edward, with all due respect it is the responses for all to read from Zionist apologists when the world's 5th largest army is killing civilians, including children. It never ceases to amaze me. From the response of this article we have learned that some civilians are better than others.

Saturday May 2, 2009, 11:03 pm
Do you consider your own friends, neighbors, and family more important to you than strangers, Locan? I know I do. And most people do.

Does that make your friends, neighbors, and family "better" than a stranger? No. But it does make them, and their well-being, more important to YOU.

If Iran and the United States were to go to war tomorrow, I will care more about the safety of American civilians than I will about Iranian civilians. Just as Iranians will care more about the safety of their own civilians (and I GUARANTEE that they will, in fact, care more about their own people in that regard).

My feelings will occur partly because I, and those I love, are among those American civilians. Partly because the rest of them are citizens of my own country. And partly because you don't win a war by killing your own people.

Saturday May 2, 2009, 11:10 pm
If Iran and the United States go to war tomorrow, I will leave because this country at that point will not be worth the endless sacrifice of good people. It would mean we truly are Zionist Israel's lackey. I'm no ones lackey.
Well, maybe my daughter's.

Sunday May 3, 2009, 2:52 am
A very Happy 61st birthday Israel. Here's a bit of Zionist history for the haters and baiters.


It's the birthday of the father of modern Zionism: Theodor Herzl, born in Pest, Hungary (now Budapest) in 1860. He moved to Vienna when he was 18, studied law and literature, and then went to Paris to cover the Dreyfus Affair, an incident in which a Jewish captain in the French army was wrongly convicted of being a spy for Germany. Anti-Semitism was rampant, and after the trial, Parisians streamed out into the streets chanting, "Death to the Jews. " It made an enormous impression on young Herzl, and after he realized the full extent of anti-Semitism in Germany and Russia, he became convinced that Jews needed to leave Europe and start their own nation where they would be free of persecution. He published his ideas in Der Judenstaat (1896), which was translated into English as The State of the Jews or The Jewish State.He traveled around Europe and beyond as the main spokesman for Zionism. In 1897, he organized the First Zionist Congress, held in Basel, Switzerland. He gathered support for the cause of a Jewish state. Britain offered the Sinai Peninsula, which was part of its colony Egypt. But that plan failed, so Britain offered part of its East African settlement in Uganda.Herzl died in 1904 from heart failure, and the 1905 Zionist Congress decided to commit itself to founding a Jewish state in the ancestral homeland of Israel. Young Jewish people from all over Europe started migrating to Palestine, and by 1935, there were 355,000 Jews in Palestine. In 1948, after the end of World War II and the Arab-Israeli War of 1948, Israel was established as a Jewish nation. Jewish people from all over the world continue to immigrate in large numbers to Israel. Today, Israel is the biggest immigrant-absorbing nation in the world relative to its population. About one-third of Israelis living in Israel are foreign-born. About 40 percent of the world's Jewish population lives in Israel, and about another 40 percent in the United States.

Sunday May 3, 2009, 10:05 am
former air force soldier from israel against warcrime against palestine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em2JB6eysQo

LONG LIVE PALESTINE!! WE WILL NOT GO DOWN!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GQrJndpbzc

Nakba !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrNrZ2IBC_A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXOWTy3u96A&feature=related

Long Live PALESTINE!!!

Sunday May 3, 2009, 10:21 am
Long live Palestine - AND Israel. As separate nations at peace with one another.

Sunday May 3, 2009, 11:25 am
"So, Brigitte - do you reluctantly accept violence as a means of self-defense?"

Lindsey if you are trying to corner me into an impossible situation then use my words against me, you are wasting your time. You're really trying to divert attention from the astonishing statements you had made earlier, which painted you in a very dark light.

But I will indulge you and answer. Only that there is a lot to say on this topic. Here it is.

I believe in the right to Self-defense. Thus I believe in Resistance as a meas of self defense. Resistance can be passive or active, peaceful or violent. Of course...I prefer Peaceful resistance but sometimes it is a luxury one cannot afford. When it is the only way to ensure survival, I accept the fact that a person or People in immediate danger have a right to defend themselves whatever way they chose, as long as it is their only resort to survive. I do not accept it "reluctantly", I just accept it, hoping it can save the lives of innocent civilians, especially children who are the most innocent of all.

I believe that it is an adult's right, duty and responsibility to protect children from harm and death.

If my family and I were in immediate danger, what I' d do first is take my family and try to run away from the attackers. I would not shoot at random if the attackers were among innocent citizens.
But I am sure that if there was no way out, and if I had to, I would not hesitate to injure the attackers or try to take their lives before they take ours. It would not make me a violent person, just someone who was given no other choice to SURVIVE.

***"Everyone has the right to defend his life against the attacks of an unjust aggressor. For this end he may employ whatever force is necessary and even take the life of an unjust assailant. As bodily integrity is included in the good of life, it may be defended in the same way as life itself." Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913***

The Palestinians in Gaza had NO way out. Whose fault was it? Not theirs. Just like the Indigenous Peoples of "America" when they were under siege, trapped, imprisoned in concentration camps (reservations), starved, denied medical rights, and so on. They had every right to defend themselves, their women, their children, or do you deny them this right too? The numbers were against them as well as the white invaders' weapon technology. Yet they fought to the bitter end. One treaty had been violated after the other. They were desperate for survival and couldn't trust the oppressor anymore. They leaders were seen as terrorists because it was convenient to the genocidal agenda of the white occupiers.

Well Palestinians have been put in a similar position. Under siege, imprisoned, starved, denied medical rights, educational rights, watching their own people die - murdered by Israeli soldiers.

***"A people under siege by an illegal occupier are entitled in international law to take up arms against their oppressor. Who are we to interfere and deny them that right? There is a general consensus that Israel's relentless assault to annihilate Gaza’s civil society was unlawful and a war crime. "Stuart Littlewood***

I do understand the right of Israel to defend its population against attacks, wherever they come from. BUT Israel's own attacks against Gaza have been OUT OF PROPORTION, not meant just in self-defense but with the intend to wipe out an entire population of civilians. Another "shock and awe". Israel went overboard trying to crush the population using the most cruel weapons, illegal weapons and a technology that has turned science into a nightmare.

There was no need for such cruelty and sadism. Everyone knew about the old, worn out weapons used in Palestinian resistance. No matter how you put it, Israel as a State has NO ethics. They've been well taught by the USA.

Sunday May 3, 2009, 11:28 am
Don't believe me, but maybe you' ll believe Human Rights Watch?

http://www.hrw.org/node/81760

Rain of Fire: Israel’s Unlawful Use of White Phosphorus in Gaza
This 71-page report provides witness accounts of the devastating effects that white phosphorus munitions had on civilians and civilian property in Gaza. Human Rights Watch researchers in Gaza immediately after hostilities ended found spent shells, canister liners, and dozens of burnt felt wedges containing white phosphorus on city streets, apartment roofs, residential courtyards, and at a United Nations school. The report also presents ballistics evidence, photographs, and satellite imagery, as well as documents from the Israeli military and government. [...]

Sunday May 3, 2009, 11:30 am

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/03/20/remote-control-death
Remote Control Death
by
Marc Garlasco, senior military analyst, & Darryl Li, consultant for Human Rights Watch

March 20, 2009
Related Materials:
Israel: White Phosphorus Use Evidence of War Crimes
Rain of Fire
Other Material:
Complete coverage of Israel/Gaza
(From The Nation magazine, published March 20, 2009.)

"It buzzed like bees around me." Muhammad Allaw, 13, was describing the sound made by an Israeli unmanned drone overhead moments before it fired a rocket that killed his 10-year-old brother Mo'men, crushing his legs and scattering tiny identical cubes of shrapnel throughout his chest. The family had been sitting on the roof of their home at noontime in the al-Shaaf area of Gaza City on January 5. No Israeli ground forces or Palestinian fighters were nearby when the drone struck, literally out of the blue.

Unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) have become ubiquitous in Gaza's skies in recent years and are key to the notion that Israel can use high-tech precision weaponry to distinguish between combatants and civilians. The facts, however, suggest that any weapon is only as discriminating as the people using it.

Israel is the world's leader in drone technology. It has modified US designs for its own use and even for export (despite the recent diplomatic spat between Israel and Turkey, a drone purchase deal between the two countries appears to be on track). Israel's primary armed model, the Hermes, is the Israel Defense Force's answer to the Predator, which is used extensively by the United States in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Hermes can hover at 18,000 feet for up to twenty hours at a time. Its sensors can discern people on the ground--they can even distinguish between adults and children. Drones can carry a variety of munitions; those used in Gaza appear to rely primarily on a variant of the US-made Spike anti-tank missile, with a lethal blast radius of ten to twenty meters.

Little wonder, then, that drones were the IDF's weapon of choice when Israel launched its military campaign on December 27 with an attack on the Gaza City police headquarters, which killed at least forty cadets during a police academy graduation ceremony. According to the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz, the proposal to attack this event was hotly debated within the IDF for months. IDF lawyers knew that these policemen were presumptively civilians under international law, which would consider them legitimate targets only if they were directly participating in hostilities against Israel. At the site of this attack Human Rights Watch researchers found hundreds of perfectly cubic pieces of metal shrapnel, circuit boards and other parts (including some marked with Motorola serial numbers), and four small impact craters--all consistent with drone-fired missiles.

The assault that killed Mo'men Allaw was one of six drone attacks that Human Rights Watch researchers in the Gaza Strip investigated, in which twenty-nine civilians were killed. Five of six took place in broad daylight, and all of them without any evident military targets in the vicinity, in civilian areas that were removed from fighting and, because they were so densely built-up and distant from border areas, were unlikely sites for launching rockets into Israel. In addition to interviewing more than a dozen witnesses, we gathered extensive physical evidence consistent with drone attacks, such as telltale cubic pieces of shrapnel, and took photographs of the blast patterns left behind in walls and items of clothing speckled with dozens of tiny square holes. Other human rights groups have documented dozens of similar incidents.

One of the deadliest drone attacks occurred a few hours after the initial December 27 air assault. A drone fired a missile at a group of youths who had gathered around a radio as they waited for a bus near the United Nations Relief and Works Agency headquarters in Gaza City. The missile killed twelve young men, mostly students at the UNRWA-sponsored Gaza Training College across the street.

"We heard a buzzing noise in the air before the explosion," recalled Ibrahim Rayyis, 19, who witnessed the attack from a nearby store. "When I went out to see what happened, my two brothers Hisham and Allam were lying on the ground, blood gushing from their wounds." Their father, Nehru Rayyis, later stumbled upon the body of another relative killed in the attack, 20-year-old Abd Allah, on the floor outside an overflowing morgue in a Gaza hospital.

Human Rights Watch has also documented several cases of children killed while playing on the roofs of their homes. On January 4, the day before Mo'men Allaw was killed, an Israeli drone fired a missile at two children playing on the roof of a two-story home in downtown Gaza City, killing Mahmoud Mashharawi, 12, and Ahmed Subayh, 16. Mahmoud's brother Ashraf, 30, a cameraman who has worked with Britain's Channel 4 television, rushed to the hospital in time to watch his brother die on the operating table.

A few hours later, five children from the al-Habbash family who were on the roof of their home in the al-Shaaf neighborhood were struck by a drone-fired missile, killing 10-year-old Shadhar and 12-year-old Isra. Two of their teenage siblings each lost both of their legs. "We keep chickens on the roof, and the kids were feeding them and playing," their father, Muhammad, a science teacher at an UNRWA school, told us. After the ambulances evacuated his children, he said, he collected pieces of their skin and flesh from the roof.

That Israel's drones essentially treated anyone on a Gaza rooftop as a target was apparent most of all to its own soldiers. "They told us not to go up on the roofs because everyone who goes up on the roof is going to be taken out," an IDF medic stationed in the Zaytoun area on the outskirts of Gaza City during the campaign told Human Rights Watch. His comrades made clear, he said, that if he went up on the roof of a Palestinian home, "somebody from the air will take you down."

However indiscriminately they may have struck, IDF drones probably killed fewer civilians than old-fashioned weapons such as artillery and tank shells during the recent military campaign.

No weapon better symbolizes Israel's indirect occupation of the Gaza Strip. Since removing its military bases and settlers from Gaza in 2005, Israel has disclaimed any responsibility as an occupying power for the well-being of Gaza's populace. But even without permanent garrisons, Israel continues to control Gaza's economy and infrastructure, from its borders and airspace to its power grid and monetary policy. The Israeli blockade of Gaza, tightened in mid-2007 after Hamas took over Palestinian Authority institutions, has created immense hardships on Gaza's civilian population. And just as Israel's control of Gaza's borders allows it to dictate from a safe distance what Gazans can eat, whether they can turn on their lights and what kinds of medical treatment are available to them, drones give Israel the ability to carry out targeted attacks without having to risk "boots on the ground."

Under the laws of war, Israel remains a belligerent force and an occupier in Gaza, and its actions are accordingly regulated by two sets of rules: one for how it may fight and another for ensuring the welfare of the population. Israel uses its drones to pay lip service to the first set of duties and its embargo to wash its hands of the latter. In short, it seeks indefinite control without responsibility. The facts, however, tell a starkly different story: that neither remote-control weapons nor remote-control occupations equal more justice or less bloodshed.

Sunday May 3, 2009, 11:32 am
The charge of "disproportionate response" is only valid when the response is more than is needed to stop the attacks.

The attacks haven't stopped. Obviously the Israeli response wasn't enough to force an end to the fighting - it didn't stop what it was intended to stop. Therefore the response is not unfairly disproportionate.

Sunday May 3, 2009, 11:35 am
"Defensive violence, therefore, must be confined to resisting invasive acts against person or property. But such invasion may include two corollaries to actual physical aggression:
- intimidation, or a direct threat of physical violence;
- and fraud, which involves the appropriation of someone else's property without his consent, and is therefore "implicit theft."
Murray N. Rothbard

Sunday May 3, 2009, 11:35 am
http://www.phr.org.il/phr/article.asp?articleid=708&catid=42&pcat=42&lang=ENG

Independent fact-finding mission of medical experts commissioned by Physicians for Human Rights-Israel and the Palestinian Medical Relief Society (PMRS) published today its special report

6 Apr 2009


In their report on the Israeli offensive in the Gaza Strip, 27.12.2008 – 18.01.2009, the experts detail 44 testimonies by civilians who came under attack and by medical staff who were prevented from evacuating the wounded. The report provides first-hand evidence regarding the broader effects of the attacks on a civilian population that was already vulnerable on the eve of the offensive.


The experts collected samples of human tissue earth, water, grass and mud suspected to be contaminated by unidentified chemicals. These were sent by the team to laboratories in the UK and South Africa for analysis.

During the military operation in January, Physicians for Human Rights-Israel called for an external independent investigation into the events, for the rehabilitation of the Gaza Strip and for the opening of the Crossings.

Five independent experts in the fields of forensic medicine, burns, medical response to crises and public health, from Germany, Denmark, South Africa and Spain, immediately answered the call and traveled to Gaza between 29 January and 5 February 2009 for their first fact-finding investigation, and then to hospitals in Egypt, where some of the most seriously wounded were being treated.

The medical experts are: Professor Jorgen Thomsen from Denmark, expert in Forensic pathology; Dr. Ralf Syring from Germany, an expert in Public Health in crisis regions; Professor Shabbir Ahmed Wadee from South Africa, an expert in Forensic pathology; Professor Sebastian Van As from South Africa, an expert in Trauma surgery and Ms. Alicia Vacas Moro from Spain, an expert in International health.

From the conclusion of the report:

"...Besides the large-scale, largely impersonal destruction that the team witnessed and heard of, it was especially distressing to hear of individual cases in which soldiers had been within seeing, hearing and speaking distance of their victims for significant stretches of time, but despite the opportunity for 'humanisation', had denied wounded people access to lifesaving medical care, or even shot at civilians at short range..."

[...]

In their concluding remarks, the experts say:

“The underlying meaning of the attack on the Gaza Strip, or at least its final consequence, appears to be one of creating terror without mercy to anyone. Nearly all the people we spoke to slept cuddled together with the other members of their family in a central room of the house during the three weeks of attack. No one knew where or when the next bomb or explosion would occur. It appears that the wide range of attacks with sophisticated weaponry was predominantly focussed on terrorising the population. ...”


Hadas Ziv, Executive Director of Physicians for Human Rights-Israel:

The military was well aware that such an attack on a densely populated area would exert a terrible toll on the civilian population. It was the Israeli Army’s responsibility to secure a way for the civilian population to flee the zone of combat.
At the moment, three things need to be done:
- A rigorous, transparent, and independent investigation should be conducted, one in which the victims' voices will be heard. The newly appointed investigative committee of the Human Rights Council is an important step in this direction. We hope Israel will fully cooperate with it.
- There is also an urgent need to open the Crossings and to allow the rehabilitation of Gaza.
- Israeli society needs to understand and assert its responsibility to end the culture of impunity so that such severe violations of international law and medical ethics will not occur in the future.

Sunday May 3, 2009, 12:31 pm
Edward I am not twisting your words. Everyone can see them and the thread you've posted them on.

"The Israelis, however, make every attempt to avoid killing innocent civilians. Yes, there is always one or two idiots in every group, but the goal of the Israelis is not to kill innocent civilians, whereas the goal of the Hamasholes and HezBOOBlahs is."

Then you might as well say that most, if not all of the Israeli governments are "idiots", because they are the ones who have ordered -and favour- weapons that indiscriminately mass murder any human being in targeted areas!! Some of them are illegal weapons, with horrific technology and consequences - not spreading death only but also absolute torture. Oh but perhaps you support torture, who knows.

You call "idiots" men who kill innocent civilians. "Idiots"? What about "Murderers"? no, they are just idiots to you. I wonder how you'd call a man who killed your family? would you just give him a little slap on the wrist and call him an idiot?

Hey, you know a lot about weapons, and actually like them, so don't pretend to be misinformed about what kind of weapons have been used by Israel.

"In addition, my post on Sunday April 26, 2009, 12:46 pm does not mention the Hamasholes and HezBOOBlahs, so your point was not valid."

Mmm... Sorry to disappoint you but I was not responding to your April 26, 12.46. I must confess I don't read all your posts - they are so full of the same lies, arrogance and insensivity.. and they keep running in circles as I've told you before. It's your nasty comments to Aisha that caught my attention, also your outrageous laughter at the word genocide.Your little affectionate racist name calling IS in many posts and threads (you think it's so clever), and definitely was in the one I replied to.

You can backpaddle all you want: you've done it before. It says a lot about you.

It won't change the fact that you are in denial of a genocide, and it made you laugh hysterically -without any respect for all the VICTIMS who lost their lives, their families, their limbs, their hopes.

And it doesn't stop you either that this thread is in memory of a man, seen dying in the photo on this thread.

"your view that anyone who defends Israel's position of defending herself as evil, vile, horrible, cold-hearted, mean, etc".

Mmm... my view ?? my response to this is in my previous comments.So this is all I will say:

Any State has a right to defend its citizens and I respect that right. What I cannot respect is the MEANS the State of Israel has deliberately chosen knowing that they are against international laws, and more than enough to wipe out an entire nation (aka genocide).

Israel's agenda has very little to do with self defense. I oppose those who support THAT agenda. This is why you and I will never agree, and we'd better end it here. Good luck with your little circles!

Sunday May 3, 2009, 12:50 pm
"Obviously the Israeli response wasn't enough to force an end to the fighting - it didn't stop what it was intended to stop. Therefore the response is not unfairly disproportionate."

Lindsey... you are saying that it is FAIRLY disproportionate, and your statement implies that Israel has not killed enough Palestinians and should go on. I can only hope it's not what you meant, but the words are there.

The response IS not only unfairly disproportionate, it is also senseless and extremely dangerous because it only makes things worse for the Palestinians, strengthening the movement of resistance which started in self defense in the first place.
If you cannot understand this, you cannot understand the spirit of resistance, which takes a lot of COURAGE, in case you don't know. It is very hard to break the spirit of resistants.
Israel should see that the solution is not force. It is respect, understanding and dialogue. Most of all it is humanity and the respect of international laws. Many Jews know it, and this is what the Jewish Voice for Peace has been saying all along.

Well at least your comments seemed to show you admit that Palestine is only defending itself.

Sunday May 3, 2009, 2:47 pm
No, my comments do not show that I "admit tht Palestine is only defending itself." My comments about self-defense were to rebut your own contention that you did not advocate violence.

And nowhere did I say that Israel "should" go on killing more Palestinians. I said that their response has not caused the opposing side to stop fighting.

You and I obviously look at the word "disproportionate" and see two different things. Because I see it in relation to how something has, or has not, been enough to achieve the goal envisioned.

If I have a small tooth cavity, an immediate extraction would be disproportionate. The first step would be a filling. But if the pain continues, then perhaps a stronger response is needed, such as a root canal. If the pain still continues, perhaps the extraction is needed. What wuold have been "disproportionate" in the very beginning becomes perfectly proportionate because the initial treatments haven't worked.

And, Brigitte, before you start levelling accusations that "Lindsey thinks Palestinians are like an infected tooth who have to be extracted and destroyed" - this was merely an illustrative analogy. And I do not see Palestinians as an infection in the tooth of the world. Just thought we'd clear that one up beforehand since I was quite certain the accusation was to be forthcoming.

You are certainly right in that it's perfectly possible that Hamas will go on fighting until hell freezes over, no matter what the Israeli response is. They certainly say as much in their Charter - that they must raise the banner of Allah over the entire region of Palestine (including Israel, of course, which is part of Palestine according to their stated view), which is to be theirs until the end of time, and that peaceful solutions to the conflict are contrary to their beliefs and not to be considered.

Perhaps we should believe what they say. Perhaps, no matter what Israel may do or may not do, Hamas will make good on its promise and continue the assaults so long as Israel continues to exist as a nation. I very much hope not. I hope that cooler heads will prevail on both sides and that they can achieve the two-state solution and end the fighting once and for all.

Monday May 4, 2009, 1:37 pm
Sadly, Israel is no Longer Democratic

By Shulamit Aloni

May 03, 2009 "Haaretz" -- Maj. Gen. Amos Yadlin and philosopher Asa Kasher, two respected men around here, published an article entitled: "A just war of a democratic state," (Haaretz, April 24, Hebrew).

A remark about the first part: There are wars that are necessary for self-defense or to fight injustice and evil. But the expression "just" is problematic when speaking of war itself - which involves killing and destruction and leaves women, children and old people homeless, and sometimes even kills them.

Our sages have said: "Don't be overly righteous." And there is absolutely no question that dropping cluster bombs in an area populated by civilians, as we did in the Second Lebanon War, does not testify to great righteousness. The same thing can be said of using phosphorus bombs against a civilian population.
Advertisement
Apparently, according to the Yadlin and Kasher definition of justice, in order to eliminate terrorists it is just to destroy, kill, expel and starve a civilian population that has no connection to the acts of terror and no responsibility for them. Perhaps had they adopted a more decent and less arrogant approach they would have tried to explain the reasons for the fury and intensity that brought about the shocking killing and destruction, and even apologized for the fact that these exceeded any reasonable necessity.

But after all, we are always right; moreover, these things were done by "the most moral army in the world," sent by the "democratic" Jewish state -[...]

For the entire article : http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22538.htm

Monday May 4, 2009, 6:31 pm
Brigitte T, Trying to discuss this with you is not working as you enjoy twisting people's words so they say what YOU mean and not what the person who posts them means. Even Lindsey felt the need to preempt your twisting with the tooth analogy. To that end, I will discontinue this discussion with you and allow you to feel victorious...just remember, meekness isn't weakness...

Tuesday May 5, 2009, 1:42 am
Edward, you're right, discussions between you and me are not working - I told you that long ago. But do not accuse me of twisting people's words when I 've merely commented on those words because of their obvious implications. It is not just me who's been shocked by certain statements and/or attitudes, whether they deny a genocide (you) and make fun of the topic, or say that the lives of some civilians are more valuable than others (Lindsey). I was ready to give Lindsey the benefit of the doubt -I couldn't believe she was saying this-, but she chose to dig herself deeper with her following comments, instead of trying to read her own statements through the eyes of a passing viewer, see how troubling her words were.
Anyway, that discussion is online and people can make their own mind.

It's because the discussion was not working that I posted articles and their sources. After all I am nobody in particular, but Human Rights Watch and other sources including scientists have provided extensive reports and conclusions.

Lindsey added a disclaimer about the tooth anology and it was a wise thing to do, because it could have been perceived as another shocking statement. However - and I'm not trying to start a fight or split hairs-
please note that the word analogy means "partial likeness or agreement", "process of reasoning between parallel cases", "comparison between two situations, process etc that seem similar, or the process of making this comparison". This makes the analogy between the infected tooth and the Palestinians a very unfortunate choice, to put it mildly; the saddest thing being the fact that the Palestinians are perceived by many as an infected tooth which need extraction.

So thank you Lindsey for adding that it is not your position. It is just strange that you would use an illustrative analogy and add a disclamer that you do not mean it. It's a bit confusing, you have to admit. But you were just trying to make a point and you succeeded. The infected tooth analogy is not your belief (thank goodness) but tragically it seems to be how Israel views the Palestinians in Gaza.

Edward, no one can feel victorious as long as innocent civilians will continue to suffer.

As for being meek or weak, allow me to say you are neither, so don't worry :)

Tuesday May 5, 2009, 5:32 am
OMG...KILLING IS KILLING! No matter who was killed, it's wrong!

Please listen to the words of a friend who put this together to honor Bassem, this is a "real" person! The following writing is from a gentleman who wrote this for people to better understand what has just happened to this young man:


Tell people that Bassem always smiled.

Tell people that Bassem was killed because he wanted to live on and tend his own land in Bil’in.

Tell people Bassem wasn’t involved in any ‘violent’ protest.

Tell people he was telling the soldiers to stop throwing tear gas projectiles because a woman was wounded. Tell people when people ask ‘Where is the Palestinian Gandhi’ that Bassem is one of many Palestinian Gandhis.

Tell them the morning that Bassem was killed he gave medicine to Hamis, whose skull was broken because he wanted to live on and tend his own land in Bil’in.

Tell people that people from all of the surrounding villages came to Bassem’s funeral.

Tell people that Bassem still walks with us.


Now say something, anyone...that will deny this man was murdered, please. It's a shame how others that want to help get killed for it.

Let no man kill for the sake of killing!

Just a share for all who think that Bassem died because of other reasons, he died for his beliefs...once again!

R.I.P. dearest Bassem, Allah knows what you "really" were trying to do my friend. Bless your soul for caring about others in this world, not just yourself. Wish others would take a lesson on this.

Peace b/w/us/all,
FreeSpiritRunning...

Tuesday May 5, 2009, 5:46 am
Brigitte, it is clear to any observer that the leadership of Palestine, in relation to this conflict, cares more about the welfare of its own civilians than it does about the civilians on the Israeli side.

And that is perfectly reasonable.

That is the point I was making in relation to civilians. NOT that "some civilians are more valuable than others" INTRINSICALLY (they are not - all people are equal in that regard) - but that any nation will consider the welfare of its own civilians in wartime more important than the civilians on the side of the opponent.

Of course, you already knew that was my point - you're not an unintelligent person. But pretending otherwise allows you to feign "shock" at my dreadful statement.

If your arguments cannot stand on their own without deception then they must not be very strong to begin with.

Tuesday May 5, 2009, 7:05 am
Edward; ''Brigitte T, Trying to discuss this with you is not working as you enjoy twisting people's words so they say what YOU mean and not what the person who posts them means.''
ROTFLMFAO!!!

Much kudos Brigitte for your excellent comments and immense patience !!
(and the C2 GIYUS' wonder why we welcome their comments on our articles..... ) ;-)

Tuesday May 5, 2009, 7:28 am
salaam FreeSpiritRunning- your post is beautiful-shokran to Brigitte, Locan, and all others who participated in this thread with love, compassion and understanding-it is a shame Bassems death has to be desacated by lies, vengenous and hate...this is not about you nor your twisted ideologies...never forget those who defended your relatives during the holocaust-and if this were during that time-we would be supporting you-because genocide is genocide-no matter WHO is doing it-n its SICK and it is abhorable-now--Israel is doing it-take responsiblility instead of disapating blame and continiuing to deny it--
in your time of suffering-people fought for you..and now in the Palestinians time of suffering..we fight for them and THEIR right to exist...we stand for ALL human rights-mot just yours..
n no-LONG LIVE PALESTINE.... --they are the ones under brutal attacks and genocide-by Israel-not you--Israel is strong, has roots all over world n much power-which it abuses, sadly...
Bassem and others like him will be rememebered with love and sadnes-yet as good people who tried to stand up for freedom and their human rights...if you do not believe this was his (their ) rights as human beings-then NO ONE should have these rights...coz we are all one-only some us do not seek ethnic cleansing, stealing land and hurting others with power of might...someday maybe the govts will wake up-and find they are crumbling beneath their own corruption-it is up to the people to either go down with them, or stand up for all human rights-not just their own...this thread is indicative of a sliver of what mentality is going on there-and why the genocide contiues...Israel cannot stop their obession with this holocaust and stands firm in roots of self rightousness and violence..this will never be the answer and in the end-Palestine will prevail-you cannot kill them all off nor break their spirit--they are strong-courageous-just like your relatives were when they went thru holocaust--you cannot see-u cannot kill your way to power and land..it does not work...only negotiations and treatly others fairly will work-no you cannot have all of Palestine-u must compromise..you cant have it all...

Tuesday May 5, 2009, 7:32 am
Pete M--shokran for your patience, wisdom and vision-your posts are an enouragement to all who believe in what is right...shokran for being such a stronghold and another voice of infinite inspiration...

Tuesday May 5, 2009, 2:17 pm
Lindsey:

Pete's question to you. "''Don't you find it the' least bit troubling' the fact that the use of flechettes is banned in the West Bank because of the risk of hitting Jews but not in Gaza, where there are none?"

Your answer to his question "No, I do not find it troubling".

In otherwords it doesn't bother you = you don't mind = it's fine with you. You couldn't be more clear.
Your words are there for all to see. Obviously you understand and condone the mentality of the Israeli army and the way they use their weapons. An army and a state with a sinister agenda and serious lack of ethics.

Now you dare accuse me of deception, because I joined others to expose your true position in a light which you do not like. However, I have been nothing but honest in my comments. "Feign"?? Who are you to say how I felt when I read your cold, heartless, insensitive comments, posted under the picture of this dying man no less? And it is not the first time your comments have shocked me.

You have no defense so you attack and insult. It is cheap and it does not honor you. Whatever you can say, it is too late.

I refuse to play your little games, so if you have to go on, do it with your favourite admirers: they are the only ones you can impress.

Tuesday May 5, 2009, 2:27 pm
Aisha and Pete, you are welcome. I thank you for your excellent comments, for the truth, they are really needed.
Free Running Spirit, thank you for this poignant and beautiful letter in honor of Bassem. It is very meaningful, and sad. May Bassem rest in peace forever.

Tuesday May 5, 2009, 2:28 pm
A very nearly excellent performance, Brigitte.

Tuesday May 5, 2009, 3:08 pm
If we buy into negativity from other humans than we are no better ourselves...

I refuse to pay any attention to the negative remarks, because they have no value to them.

Thank you kindly Brigitte, you spoke with only the truth dear one, I only speak "the truth" as well my friend, that's all, nothing more, nothing less.

This article was written by my sister in soul for the sake of Bassem's life not to go unnoticed & for his honor to stay with us in spirit. Bless him.

Blessings to us ALL,
FreeSpiritRunning...

Tuesday May 5, 2009, 10:14 pm
"A very nearly excellent performance, Brigitte."

There are no performances here-everyone is presenting their hearts...what i see is
1-hate n lack of compassion
2-love and compassion

We know the difference
further
this is illustrative of why we as Palestinians and representatives of Palestinian seek peace & the strength and persistent ability to demand freedom for Palestine and end to genocide-one set of humans cannot own and control another..

and this is illustrative of WHY--it will never be agreed to by Israel...with representatives like this bunch-what could come of peace talks? nothing...nothing,...nothing...these dialogues are mild compared to what is going on over there--and--the most hateful responses and personal attacks and illogic thoughts come from Israel's supporters of genocide of the Palestinians...
how sad....

Wednesday May 6, 2009, 8:24 am
Aisha Ameena Rafeeq Tuesday May 5, 2009, 10:14 pm

Monday April 27, 2009, 2:40 pm
"Israel's supporters of genocide of the Palestinians"...HAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHHHAAAAA!!!! Why is it you don't call the attacking of Israel by the Hamasholes and HezBOOBlahs genocide? Now THAT'S genocide!!! Gee, maybe the world isn't up in arms about "Israel's genocide of the Palestinians" being genocide because it ISN'T genocide!!!

Wednesday May 6, 2009, 1:55 pm


UN accuses Israel of Gaza 'negligence or recklessness'

Inquiry finds Israel responsible for deaths, injuries and damage to UN buildings


A United Nations inquiry today accused the Israeli military of "negligence or recklessness" in its conduct of the January war in Gaza and said the organisation should press claims for reparations for deaths and damage.

The first investigation into the three-week war by anyone other than human rights researchers and journalists held the Israeli government responsible in seven separate cases in which UN property was damaged and UN staff and other civilians were hurt or killed.

However, the UN secretary general, Ban Ki-moon, rejected the report's call for a full and impartial investigation into the war, and refused to publish the complete 184-page report. Only Ban's own summary of the report (pdf) has been released.

Israel rejected the inquiry's findings, even before the summary was released, as "tendentious" and "patently biased".

The board of inquiry, led by Ian Martin, a Briton who is a former head of Amnesty International and a former UN special envoy to East Timor and Nepal, had limited scope, looking only at cases of death, injury or damage involving UN property and staff. But its conclusions amount to a major challenge to Israel.

It found the Israeli military's actions "involved varying degrees of negligence or recklessness", and that the military took "inadequate" precautions towards UN premises. It said the deaths of civilians should be investigated under the rules of international humanitarian law.

The UN should take action "to seek accountability and pursue claims to secure reparation or reimbursement" for UN expenses and payments over deaths or injury to UN staff and damage to UN property where the responsibility lay with Israel, Hamas or any other party, the report added. In total, more than $11m worth of damage was caused to UN premises.

The inquiry looked in detail at nine incidents, in which several Palestinians died. It found the Israeli military responsible in seven cases where it had "breached the inviolability" of the UN. In one other case, Palestinian militants, probably from Hamas, were held responsible; in a final case, responsibility was unclear.

The report summary will now go to the UN security council. In a later press conference , Ban confirmed that he would be seeking no further official inquiry into the Gaza events. But he did say he would be looking for reparations from Israel on a "case-by-case" basis.

The secretary general was asked whether his decision not to publish the full report amounted to a watering down of the inquiry's findings. He categorically denied the suggestion: the inquiry was independent, and he was powerless to edit its conclusions.

Israel's foreign ministry said the Israeli military had already investigated its own conduct during the war and "proved beyond doubt" that it had not fired intentionally at UN buildings. It dismissed the UN inquiry.

"The state of Israel rejects the criticism in the committee's summary report and determines that in both spirit and language the report is tendentious, patently biased and ignores the facts presented to the committee," the foreign ministry said in a statement.

It said the inquiry had "preferred the claims of Hamas, a murderous terror organisation, and by doing so has misled the world".

The most serious incident investigated took place on 6 January, near a UN boys' preparatory school in Jabaliya that was being used as a shelter for hundreds of Palestinians who had fled their homes to escape the fighting. The Israeli military had fired several 120mm mortar rounds in the "immediate vicinity" of the school, killing between 30 and 40 Palestinians, the inquiry found.

Although Israel at the time said Hamas had fired mortars from within the school, the inquiry found this as not true: there had been no firing from within the compound and there were no explosives in the school.

It held Israel responsible for the attack and said the deaths of civilians should be "assessed in accordance with ... international humanitarian law." It also called for a formal acknowledgement from Israel that its allegations about Palestinian militants being present in the school were untrue.

The other incidents investigated were:

29 December The headquarters of the UN political mission in Gaza was damaged when Israeli air strikes hit the presidential compound next door. Staff were on site, but were protected in a bunker and not injured. The inquiry held the Israeli government responsible for the damage.

5 January An Israeli air strike hit the UN Asma elementary school in Gaza City, where hundreds more Palestinians were sheltering. The missile killed three young men who had been walking to the bathroom in the school compound. The inquiry found no weapons or ammunition were being stored in the school, and that the men had been going to the toilet and not taking part in military activity. The attack was "an egregious breach of the inviolability of the United Nations premises", the inquiry said, again holding Israel responsible for the deaths and damage.

6 January An Israeli air strike damaged the UN Bureij health centre, injuring nine people. The inquiry said the air strike had targeted and destroyed an apartment opposite the centre. It held Israel responsible for the damage to the health centre, and noted that the UN had been given no advance warning of the attack.

8 January Israeli soldiers fired at a UN convoy, damaging one of the vehicles in Ezbet Abed Rabou. The marked convoy, flying a UN flag, had been cleared by the Israeli military to travel out to pick up the dead body of a UN staff member.

15 January The UN's main headquarters in Gaza was badly damaged when it was hit by several Israeli artillery shells, including some containing white phosphorus. The shelling continued despite warnings from the UN to the Israeli military, and fires caused serious damage to the UN warehouse. Three people were injured. The inquiry held Israel responsible and said the Israeli military had a "particularly high degree of responsibility" to ensure the safety of the UN headquarters.

17 January Israeli 155mm artillery loaded with white phosphorus exploded early in the morning above the UN Beit Lahiya elementary school, where nearly 2,000 Palestinians were sheltering from the fighting. Two children, aged five and seven, were killed inside a classroom and their mother and cousin were seriously injured by shards of shell casings. Eleven others were also hurt. The inquiry held Israel responsible for the deaths, injuries and damage.

In one other case, damage worth around $29,000 was caused to a World Food Programme warehouse by a Palestinian militant group, probably Hamas. In the last case, a UN guard outside the gate of a UN girls' preparatory school in Khan Younis was killed on 29 December by shrapnel. The inquiry was unable to determine who was responsible.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/may/05/israel-gaza-united-nations

Wednesday May 20, 2009, 7:15 pm
You cannot currently send a star to Brigitte because you have done so within the last week