START A PETITION 25,136,189 members: the world's largest community for good
START A PETITION
x

Indonesian Christians Plead for Freedom & Return of Confiscated Churches


Society & Culture  (tags: Indonesia, religious freedom, church seizure, Islamists, intolerance, Christianscorruption, government, religion, rights, law, freedoms, corruption, religion, rights, law, government )

Rob and J
- 886 days ago - maghrebchristians.com
They denounce the abuses and violations by dozens of Islamist groups, the manipulation of the law to their liking and the inertia of the state and institutions in granting religious freedom & stopping seizing of churches by Islamists.



Select names from your address book   |   Help
   

We hate spam. We do not sell or share the email addresses you provide.

Comments

Rob and Jay B. (121)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 12:43 am
This is an ongoing and escalating problem across the Muslim occupied world - the ethnic cleansing, destruction of churches/temples, murder, driving out and persecution of all non-Muslims as Orthodox Islam and its intolerance grows across the world. Yet our leaders are silent.

In Indonesia alone, the supposedly most tolerant Muslim ruled country, over 300 Christian churches have been burned! 300! If just one mosque had been burned anywhere in the world it would be headlines in all western media, especially on Care2, wouldn't it? Yet churches are being destroyed from Nigeria to Egypt, from Turkey to Kuwait (a leading Islamic authority just issued a fatwa calling for the destruction of all churches in the Gulf region), from Iran and Iraq to Indonesia. But our leaders and media couldn't care less.

Middle Eastern Christian leaders tried to meet with Obama to beg for his help and he, under direction from his 3 Muslim Brotherhood 'advisers', refused to even see them, yet there was no media outcry, no headlines, no protests of 'Christophobia', hatemongering, racism - nothing.

Islam has succeeded in silencing all critics in the West in a well planned and executed campaign to do so, opening the way for Islamism to commit crimes against humanity and all human rights with impunity. It looks as if a new Dark Age of islam is looming.
 

Tommy S. (11)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 1:02 am
David Cameron 8:08AM BST 12 Apr 2012

This is unbelievable-- could he possibly be that naive
http://tgr.ph/HS5IMs
Cameron called on groups such as Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood, which has a conservative vision of Islam, to look to Indonesia's for tips on nation building
and
What Indonesia is showing is that it is possible to develop a democracy and a modern economy that neither compromises people's security nor their ability to practise their religion

Pass the Kumbaya juice
 

Cal Mendelsohn (992)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 1:05 am
Thanks for posting this important article on religious intolerance by the Islamofascists. Like all religious extremists, the freedom of worship and influence they claim for themselves is only for themselves and has nothing to do with respect for others and their values. You've got to be taught to hate and fear, as the old song goes.

I'll spread this one out to some of my friends and please dear reader, do the same. Let's put this article on the Care2 Front Page.
 

Eli T. (90)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 1:53 am
An excellent article. Another good example of how Oil has bought out moral values and human rights. The conquest of Islamic fascism seems to be a willing price to pay, as long as the blood that flows is not theirs.
 

Stan B. (124)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 2:14 am
And Indonesia is considered one of the more enlightened Muslim countries.
 

Daniel Partlow (189)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 2:20 am
We need religious freedom everywhere. People should be able to worship as they choose!
 

Lynn Squance (232)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 2:29 am
I am a Christian, a liberal Protestant Christian, and I support all people whether Christisn, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu or whatever, to practice their faith. Faith is a very personal relationship between a worshipper and his/her God. But, I do NOT support any extremists, any ultra conservatives such that would burn the Holy Qur'an; would bomb and/or burn places of worship be they churches, synagogues, mosques or whatever other name might be attributed to the structure; would attack worshippers of other faiths; would deny worshippers the right to worship.

To do these things signifies to me fear and insecurity, not understanding. People strong in their own faith have no need to stop others from practicing their faith. I don't have to agree with all tenets of another faith, but I do have to respect other faiths.

I see God as a mountain, very large and rising above all. I approach the mountain from the north and I see a particular face to the mountain and my worship is based upon the face I see and the culture of which I am apart. Another person approaches the mountain from the south and sees yet a different face and their worship is based upon the face they see and the culture of which they are apart. And so it goes for all directions. But the one inextricable thing to note is that it is always the same mountain. Each of us expresses our faith differently, but our faith is a personal relationship and no one has the right to interfere with that faith and worship.
 

pam w. (191)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 2:40 am
Lynn...suppose I tell you I'm a follower of Santeria and my faith requires me to regularly sacrifice animals on my doorstep. Do you "respect" me?

This "respect" business seems to work only ONE WAY with our Muslim brethren.

In an unbelievably insensitive movement to erect a mosque within the figurative shadow of the WTC, supporters of American Muslims screeched "Islamophobia"....where's the outcry about this situation?

Based on previous experience here at Care2--I suspect we won't be hearing from those people in this thread.
 

Lynn Squance (232)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 2:59 am
The one thing I neglected to say, people who do not express a faith, or who call themselves athiests, should also be respected. That too is their right.

Pam, I would respect it but I would not like it at all. Respecting all faiths is not easy and I know I slip up. But what I try to do is understand the "why". Even knowing the why, I not necessarily will like it any better. In biblical times, Jews offered sacrifices. When Jesus cleared the temple, he cleared it of money changers and those wanting to do ritual sacrifices. There is a Jewish group in the US that I read about here at Care2 some time ago that still practices ritual sacrifice. I don't agree with it, but I still respect the people.

I agree that it seems to work one way at times, but understanding and respect have to start somewhere. If it doesn't start, how can it grow?
 

pam w. (191)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 3:11 am
It "starts" when everyone (literally EVERY ONE) is committed to seeing it happen. And, unfortunately, Islam is speaking from both sides of its (figurative) mouth. The day Indonesian Muslims build churches for their Christian citizens....the day Jews are safe and unmolested in Islamic countries....the day Muslims move into Western cultures and live without trying to change those cultures to suit themselves....THAT is when it begins to grow.

 

Pat A. (117)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 4:11 am
Oh this blighted machine just deleted my typing! Lynn - would send you a green star but computer won't let me yet - sorry.

I love your analogy of the mountain and the peoples of the world approaching it from different directions - I believe Guru Nanak used a very similar one 400 years ago, so you are in good company! You are absolutely right when you say that people secure in their own beliefs don't need to attack others - and these Christians should be allowed to worship in their Churches. However - should that sadly not be allowed - house churches can be very strong - it is how the original Christian movement started after all, and lasted for 300 years like that! Also persecution tends to increase faith, hard though it is to believe - mind you, for their sake I do hope that does NOT arise!

 

Jarno Lahtinen (26)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 4:12 am
Freedom of, and from religion is a fundamental value that is crucial to any society that wants to prevent the marginalization and opression of people. Minorities must be protected by law, against those of the majority who apparently see nothing wrong with harassing and opressing the minority.

This is why I admire the American constitution for the separation of church and state it establishes. (And yes, I know those words aren't there - the concept clearly is).

It isn't an intutitive concept, defending the right of people to believe things that you might not agree with, and might even totally oppose, and be offended by. But that concept is required for a free society without oppression. People who want a free society need to develop a thicker skin, because you do not have a right "not to be offended" in a society with free speech and freedom of religion. If you are offended, your recourse is to speak out yourself. Which is a right that is guaranteed to you by the very same freedoms that allowed the speech you found offensive.

My best wishes to all the minorities that suffer from this sort of opression in Indonesia.
 

Terry King (109)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 4:38 am
I fully support your right to embrace whatever delusion you choose.
 

Carol H. (229)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 4:58 am
noted, thank you Rob and J and Cal for the forward!
 

Phyllis Baxter (40)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 5:01 am
Oh stop dreaming- you can't do anything with the Indonesians- they are so bloody minded and self righteous, you can't appeal to their sense of fairness and justice- they'll just laugh at you. The religion part is just a tool and an excuse to colonize and destroy indigenous cultures and strip them of their resources. Take West Papua- the ongoing human rights violations and genocide are ignored by the West most of the time.
 

Eli T. (90)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 5:17 am
Lynn I hear what you are saying but I also notice how quick you are to point out in the same breath what Jews did 2000 years ago. Do you know what your ancestors were doing 2000 years ago?
"There is a Jewish group in the US that I read about here at Care2 some time ago that still practices ritual sacrifice."
This group is as Jewish as are Christians or Islam. Just the name Jews seems to get more attention.
I read your post and the Mandeans of Iraq immediately come to mind. They "were" a people of peace who were almost wiped out in the last 15 years. You might want to live in peace and want to respect all things around you, much as did the Mandeans, but you would end the same way they did. The West is trained to think in a respectful perspective toward all. This is not the way of the majority of Islamic countries. Had your boarders been stronger, you could have lived in an oasis of peace. When in Rome do as the Romans, is not taught in any Islamic country. What is taught is that you are an infidel and therefore to be hated and destroyed.
Pam... A BIG Amen to your post.
 

Rob and Jay B. (121)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 5:31 am
Eli T, exactly. Islam, sadly, doesn't teach the Golden Rule and Allah says Islam must conquer the world so that 'all religion is for Allah' - Islam has never allowed freedom of religion as westerners think of that. No religion can ever be treated as equal to islam, the only true religion. Jesus said to love everyone, even your enemies, but Mohammed/Allah said only care for other Muslims, the rest are disbelievers and must be conquered, taxed heavily and/or killed. No other religion teaches anything like this, and Islam is the only 'religion' that commands that all those who criticize it, leave it be killed, along with gay people. This is not a religion of love, turn the other cheek and non-violence. Quite the opposite.

Can't give another green star to Pam W this week. Good points Pam, as always. Good points everyone. thanks
 

Eli T. (90)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 5:48 am
A student came to Rabbi Hillel (in 110 BC) and asked him to teach him all the Torah while standing on 1 leg. Hillel answered him "love they neighbor as thy self". He is the same rabbi Hillel, Jesus/Yeshua as any good student, took many of his teachings from, as do all Jews today and then.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 5:49 am
I didn't read any comments on this thread until after I read the article. And from one instance in one article of a protest by Christians in one place about the religious intolerance by Muslims that won't let them use this one church, it becomes by Rob and Jay (and others):
" ethnic cleansing, destruction of churches/temples, murder, driving out and persecution of all non-Muslims as Orthodox Islam and its intolerance grows across the world."
From a specific to a huge sweeping generality.
Don't get upset if I ask you for all the specific examples of your sweeping generalities. That would be fair wouldn't it.
I'm not pro or anti muslim but I know hate works both ways. I can also see specifics vs. generalities.
I'm not surprised either that R and J hate Obama because, let's see, he's a muslim? I thought he said he was a Christian. Oh yeah, he's 'just pretending'.
And forget hiding behind the term 'Orthodox Islam' as a justification for your hate, or just 'orthodox muslims' when you say--- "Islam (no such 'orthodox' distinction anymore) has succeeded in silencing all critics in the West in a well planned and executed campaign to do so, opening the way for Islamism to commit crimes against humanity and all human rights with impunity. It looks as if a new Dark Age of islam is looming.
Why am I not surprised. Same old same old huge religious intolerant sweeping harmful generalities brought to you by the hate of Rob and Jay.



 

monica r. (41)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 5:56 am
Lynn, that mountain analogy is great, but it only goes so far. You need to understand some people are praying to a different "mountain" than you are. THAT is an "inextricable thing to note."

Do you think Satanists pray to the same "mountain" as you? That's a religion, too. What about the "dark side" of voudun? That is rumored to include HUMAN sacrifice. You're okay with that? They're still at your same mountain? Maybe as a Christian, you're like me, and you don't feel that people of other faiths or atheists need to have Christianity rammed down their throats. That said, it would be unwise not to acknowledge that not all of them worship the same deity as you do. Do not be deceived about Islam. They will say they believe in Jesus, but they absolutely do not, not as Christians do. For them he's just a guy who is a regular person, a prophet (not as great as Mohammed of course), and did not die on the cross, nor is in any way divine. What Christians believe about Christ is blasphemy to Muslims, and what they believe certainly is blasphemy to you if you are a Christian. If you believe G-d would contradict Himself on such a crucial point, literally the cornerstone of salvation, then what hope is there? If G-d Himself lies, what in all creation can we believe?

I strongly support separation of church and state. Watch as Islam makes inroads in public institutions such as schools. In Toronto a public school has Friday prayers for Muslim students, which brings in imams and segregates students by gender and of course identifies and pulls out the girls who are menstruating. If Catholic students asked for a mass at school they would not get it, because religious activities are forbidden BY LAW there. How can this be then? It is a coordinated effort to use freedom of religion to get in and then insist on being the only religion. A Muslim site, Dawa.net, describes how to do this. In effect, nobody but them gets to have their religion accommodated in state institutions. http://www.dawanet.com/methods/publicschool.dawapublic.asp

Just what degree of tolerance are you willing to extend to intolerance? To abusers of human rights? Cutting off thieves hands? (Okay, I guess, until your kid gets caught shoplifting.... better leave those pens at work though!). Death penalty for "blasphemy"? (So as a Christian, where will that leave you?) Outlawing Bibles and wearing of crosses? Executing gay people? Calling for churches to be destroyed? Stoning or hanging females who get raped? Honor-killing girls who are too independent? Beheadings? Arresting Christians for eating during Ramadan? Burning Bibles by the thousands? Executing Christian pastors who won't renounce their faith and become Muslim? Outlawing pet dogs or just poisoning them in Western countries until you can outlaw them? Women by law half the value of men? FGM? Remediating rape of MINORS by marrying the child to her rapist? I could go on but I'll be late for work.

Many religions are peaceful, tolerant, and preach non-violence. LOOK at what Islam promotes (simple just observe what goes on in Muslim countries) which is violence and intolerance. Think long and hard about whether they are really looking at the same mountain you are.
 

monica r. (41)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 6:06 am
Kenneth, Hillary Clinton has met with the OIC to silence criticism of ONE religion only. Do you ever read news from other countries? If so, you'd know what's going on in the EU with this. People have been prosecuted for saying things that are TRUE about Mohammed, for example. If you can be convicted for saying what's true, how can you criticize those bashing human rights? There's vast amounts of persecution of non-Muslims in some Muslim countries. And a fair bit of persecuting Muslims of the wrong sect, also, such as Ahmadiyya being beaten to death in the street by huge mobs of other Muslims.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 6:22 am
My post wasn't addressed to you Monica. There's various incidents of persecution of various religions. Individuals then justify their persecution, bias, prejudice, one way or another, back and forth.
 

Eli T. (90)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 6:52 am
Kennith, I would truly like to see you in Saudi Arabia with a cross or even better yet, "A BIBLE". The price of which is death. When I say this I hope you will accept this as facts and not as a form of persecution or label it as bias. It is not enough to be tolerant. All must be taught tolerance. In a world where morals are bought and sold by the gallon, how do you see this tolerance being spread? It is not bias or intolerance to say I want to live my life in peace in my own back yard. It is intolerance to attack others for posting view contrary to your own and produce nothing of positive association. Where is your tolerance?
 

Michela m. (3940)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 7:41 am
ALL RELIGIONS SHOULD BE ADDRESSING TO LOVE TOWARDS OTHERS
NOT TO HATE or DISRESPECT!!!!!!!!!

FOR ME ALL RELIONS ARE THE SAME!!! THERE IS NOT A RIGHT ONE & A WRONG ONE!!!

BUT TRUE TOLERANCE IS THE BASIC PRINCIPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WHAT SCARES ME MOST IS EXTREMISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Charles O. (209)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 8:03 am
Rob and Jay B.:

> Yet our leaders are silent.

They're not silent. With their war-making, they've helped Islamists to gain influence or control in Afghanistan (1980s), Kosovo (1999), Iraq (2003), and Libya (2011), and they are trying to destroy secular rule in Syria.

In Iran, U.S. support for the blood-thirsty Shah paved the way for the rise of Ayatollah Khomenei. Now that the zeal from the Islamic revolution is finally waning, the U.S. is eager to do it all over again.

The rise of militant Islam is a consequence of the decades-long military occupation that Muslim and Christian Palestinians have been subjected to by Israel and the U.S.. It is also a result of U.S. war-making: The instability that created by the war plays into the hands of extremists. This is true even when the U.S. makes war on behalf of Muslims, as it did in Afghanistan, Kosovo, Iraq and Syria.

How can we Americans criticize Islam, when the U.S. has Saudi Arabia -- the most repressive Muslim country -- as its close ally?

. .

> Nothing can be giving bin Laden greater pleasure than the spectacle of the West going to war to topple his hated foe, the "atheist Satan", Saddam Hussein. Even in his wildest dreams, he cannot have imagined what has now come to pass, Saddam about to go and Islam radicalised against the West.

-- Simon Jenkins, "Bin Laden's laughter echoes across the West", *London Times*, 19 Mar 2003

See Brendan O'Neill, "Today's 'Islamic Fascists' Were Yesterday's Friends", 29 Aug 2006. The Muslim Brotherhood was a creation of the British Empire, and the Mujahedeen in Afghanistan were armed, trained, and funded by Reagan's CIA in "Operation Cyclone". Your tax-dollars at work, $6,000,000,000 of them. Osama bin Laden was one of the beneficiaries of Reagan's largesse.

I see some of this strife as the result of a "divide and conquer" strategy: Keep Muslims and Christians fighting, so that they kill off each other, then reap the spoils. The solution is for people of all faiths to unite against the real enemy: the greedy war-addicts.

 

Gene Jacobson (252)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 8:15 am
'I agree that it seems to work one way at times, but understanding and respect have to start somewhere. If it doesn't start, how can it grow?"

Okay, I'm going to annoy some of you. Sorry in advance. But for me there is only one solution to this entire problem. Religion itself is evil. All of them. It doesn't matter on what book or books or tract or principle they are based on. Religion was created by men to exercise control and power over other men, of course then, anyone who wasn't male, wasn't really anything. Religion is a means to keep people under control. All because some people sat down and wrote down a list of things they didn't like their neighbors doing and said God told me so. Bullsquat. They make our Creator as small as they.
We are created equal, all of us, and all from the same source. The very idea that a "parent" (to put this in colloquial terms) would only speak to some of His/Her children and not others is ridiculous. Yet religion would have us believe this is so. Almost none of us are worthy to speak directly to our "parent", we need an intercessor, who collects a tidy fee, or a tithing fee, for that service. Who are these people? People who heard the "call". Or so they say. God told them to. Nothing has changed in 6,000 years.
Religion is used to separate and divide us, to keep us small and weak, when the truth is we were created in the "image" of our "parent" every bit as free as He/She intended. It is when we give over that power to create our own lives and faith to others, that we become small and fearful.
New Age writers are close to cracking the truth of this - Neale Donald Walsch in his book, Conversations With God, has it 90% right in my opinion. We come here to create ourselves, from a place of perfect love into which God brought us into being. We know nothing there but love, but to understand truly how wonderful, how magnificent that is, we need to know what not having that surround us, fill us, at all times feel like, so we come here, "descend" to this relative universe where we may create who we are and experience who are not and do not wish to be. Evil is defined as that which does not serve our highest purpose which is to be the love we were created from. We define ourselves, create ourselves by making choices here about how to live and how to be in relation to others. It is a wonderful truth-filled book. I highly recommend it.
Now, of the religions on this planet at this time, Islam is the least tolerant and most repressive of all. They have as one of their tenets of faith the responsibility to convert heathens, anyone who does not believe what they believe, and if they fail, kill them. This is not a religion for modern times. They are moderate only where they are not a majority, that is a ruse. Where they become a majority, what is happening with the Taliban, in Saudi Arabia, in Indonesia and in every other country governed by Sharia law is that women no longer exist as people, only as property, and men are gods. Small g because they are themselves so small and evil. The Taliban which considers its particular brand of oppressive horror to be the most holy form of government possible is also one of the leading drug cartels of the world. How is this okay? Because they don't use, they only sell to infidels who are less than nothing. As are their women and minority sects. This IS the ultimate aim of Islam. We will not overcome this threat, which I consider to be the greatest threat to civilized Earth of this century, with appeasement. That is weakness in their eyes and they will use that weakness to destroy or convert everyone else. It is their entire purpose and their entire religion is centered around it.
Evil such as this must be opposed by people of conscience. CWG points out that sometimes we are compelled, as has happened throughout history, to demonstrate our love, by temporarily becoming who we are not in order to prevent or stop a greater evil - Hitler for example. Peaceful, loving people took up arms to stop his atrocity, yet he showed us what humanity can be without a moral filter that says all people are free, equal and worthwhile in the eyes of our Creator.
If we do not oppose Islamic Extremists at every turn, we will be exterminated. No other religion beheads those who choose a different path. Appeasement, in this instance, is immoral as it results in the oppression and torture and death of innocents by men determined to rule us all with an iron fist - no less committed to their evil than was Hitler. People of conscience need oppose this senseless violence and slaughter or fall victim to it. Those are the only two course open to us. Choose.
 

tasunka m. (334)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 8:28 am
I don't talk about religion it would only get me in trouble since I believe in none.
 

Charles O. (209)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 8:34 am
monica r. writes:

> Just what degree of tolerance are you willing to extend to intolerance? To abusers of human rights? Cutting off thieves hands? (Okay, I guess, until your kid gets caught shoplifting.... better leave those pens at work though!). Death penalty for "blasphemy"? (So as a Christian, where will that leave you?) Outlawing Bibles and wearing of crosses? Executing gay people? Calling for churches to be destroyed? Stoning or hanging females who get raped? Honor-killing girls who are too independent? Beheadings? Arresting Christians for eating during Ramadan? Burning Bibles by the thousands? Executing Christian pastors who won't renounce their faith and become Muslim? Outlawing pet dogs or just poisoning them in Western countries until you can outlaw them? Women by law half the value of men? FGM? Remediating rape of MINORS by marrying the child to her rapist? I could go on but I'll be late for work.

> Many religions are peaceful, tolerant, and preach non-violence. LOOK at what Islam promotes (simple just observe what goes on in Muslim countries) which is violence and intolerance. Think long and hard about whether they are really looking at the same mountain you are.

. .

Look at what goes on in America, a non-Muslim country: We spend more on war-making than all other countries on the planet combined, and we are constantly spewing death and destruction. We also have more people in prison than any other country. We have abolished our political freedoms, and now, using Islam as the thin edge of the wedge, we are trying to abolish our religious freedom.

Do you know that Zarkawi's beheadings were condemned throughout the Islamic world? The only party to gain from the beheadings was the U.S., because Zarkawi timed them to deflect attention from Abu Ghraib. So one suspects that this criminal, sheltered in the U.S. no-fly zone prior to 2003, was actually a covert operative for the U.S..

Remember when the king of England beheaded queens, no less? Remember the 1789 French Revolution? -- and the guillotine was seen as a humanitarian innovation, at the time! Remember when Christians were burning heretics at the stake and hanging witches! How can Muslims be worse than this?!

Religious war makes the situation worse, because it empowers the extremists and radicalizes the moderates. The solution is engagement, and that is precisely what tolerance entails. Tolerance is not passive acceptance. It is openness, a willingness to see good in people and look for good, a willingness to seek common ground and work with others. It is based on faith in oneself and self-knowledge and confidence.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 8:38 am
Eli, let me guess, your 'tolerance' extends up to the point where someone is intolerant of you being a Jew and then you become intolerant of Islam, around and around in circles it goes.
"It is intolerance to attack others for posting view contrary to your own and produce nothing of positive association. Where is your tolerance?" You're twisting things by saying nobody can disagree with or attack
hate wherever it exists on a public thread and comparing that to sweeping harmful generalities against entire groups of people or religions? Nice try but non-sequitur.
At least Gene J. makes a distinction to some degree of 'Islamic Extremists' and 'Islam' in general, though it's fuzzy and wobbles back and forth. Hating religion or organized religion isn't the answer either since there ARE religions all over the planet and billions in them. What are you going to do? Convert them all to no religion Gene? Which is why there is such a term as 'religious tolerance' or 'respect the religious beliefs of other', short of breaking laws of the land. And if you don't like the laws of some land you work to change them. It's not done by hate.
Michela M. said it all.
 

Dave C. (214)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 9:59 am
why can't we all get along...especially those who claim to follow a leader who says "love others".....
 

. (0)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 10:12 am
Persecution: http://www.persecution.org/
Voice of the Martyrs: http://www.persecution.com/
 

Rob and Jay B. (121)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 10:16 am
Kenneth, there are many articles that tell of the ethnic cleansing of non-Muslims as Islamic Orthodoxy grows and spreads in all Muslim occupied lands from Nigeria to Indonesia. It would be difficult to list them all here, but we will put a few. The story of the cleansing of the Coptic Christians in Egypt (they are the original Egyptians conquered and oppressed for centuries now by Islam, and finally being exterminated in their own land by the invading conquerors) should be familiar to you. The persecution of many non-Muslims and the burning of 6500 Bibles in Iran (not a peep on Care2 about that), Turkey is still destroying the hundreds of churches left after the genocide (the first time that word was used) of the Greek, Assyrian, Armenian Christians in the 1920s - it has never stopped. 500,000 Christians have been driven out of Iraq, churches destroyed and priests murdered, the last church in Afghanistan was demolished just recently. A leading Islamic authority just issued a fatwa calling for the destruction of all churches in the Gulf Region, Kuwait is banning any new churches. The Palestinian Authority in the West Bank has just made a church 'illegal' and in Gaza most Christians and gays) have fled (many to Isreal) for their lives as persecution has grown and Christian women risk being beaten in the streets or having acid in the face for not veiling. Somalia is committing genocide against all Christians as is Sudan (still), Malaysia has just held a meeting to discuss the 'Christian Problem', Jews aren't allowed in the new Islamist Libya - it goes on and on and on and our leaders do nothing. But let some numbskull threaten to burn one Qur'an and the media lights up with headlines and politicians cry out, yet hardly a peep at genocide and ethnic cleansing going on all over the Muslim ruled world right now. Here are a few stories you can check out:

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3214657

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3153476

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3151049

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3147465

http://www.care2.com/news/member/662374011/3240131

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/12/kuwait-mulls-death-penalty-for-insulting-god_n_1420492.html

http://www.care2.com/causes/gay-iraqis-story-of-death-threats-and-attempted-rape-video.html

http://www.care2.com/news/member/662374011/3222417

http://www.care2.com/news/member/662374011/3180064

http://www.care2.com/news/member/876870911/3177014

http://www.care2.com/news/member/662374011/3161969

This one is very important, it is the head of the BBC saying how the media don't say much of the negative news about Islam because they are too afraid to, yet he admits they happily mock Jesus Christ and demean Christianity (might be why you aren't hearing much about all the atrocities committed by Muslims across the world every day):
http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3121248

http://www.care2.com/news/member/100661215/3162454

http://www.care2.com/causes/forced-conversions-hike-pakistan-minorities-fears.html

http://www.care2.com/news/member/100541798/3154636

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3152209

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3151049

http://www.care2.com/news/member/662374011/3145889

http://www.care2.com/news/member/662374011/3134233

http://www.care2.com/news/member/662374011/3129056

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3115785

http://www.care2.com/causes/political-unrest-in-the-maldives-president-ousted-supporters-beaten.html (this is about Muslim Maldives which allows zero religious freedom)

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3098593 (Arab liberals lament western leaders falling for the lies of Islamists in the Arab Spring)

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3097790

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3097510

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3091998

http://www.care2.com/news/member/662374011/3089650

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/308123

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3078151

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3077175

Ethnic cleansing of Christians in Pakistan:
http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3077045

http://www.care2.com/news/member/887020535/3066419

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3062589


http://www.care2.com/news/member/100661215/3035672

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3036728

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3040892

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3036278

http://www.care2.com/causes/saudi-woman-beheaded-for-sorcery.html

this is about sex slaves in an Islamic country - something that was sanctioned by Mohammed and Islam:
http://www.care2.com/causes/kenyan-men-trafficked-as-sex-slaves-to-gulf-states.html

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3054573

http://www.care2.com/news/member/662374011/3057253

persecution of Christians in Iran:
http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3059498

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3059973

another one on Egypt's Copts:
http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3060151

http://www.care2.com/news/member/662374011/3161538

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3161939

http://www.care2.com/news/member/193692282/3166233

http://www.care2.com/news/member/100661215/3165350

http://www.care2.com/news/member/963664183/3174929

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3122146

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3122146

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3111200 (Turkmenistan)

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3111185 (Iran)

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3111167 (Egypt)

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3111153 (Nigeria - Islamists drive nearly 95% of Christians from Muslim controlled area)

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3111147 (Turkey continues to destroy churches)

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3108119 (Egypt - persecution of Baha'is)

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3108109 (Turkey - Christians ask for equal rights)

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3108092 (Kuwait to ban churches)

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3108079

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3098665

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3056025 (Nigeria)

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3051867 (Spain)

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3051304

http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3033298

There's a mixture of stories here and a lot more than these, but 2 1/2 hours doing this is more than enough, but they all show a theme and there are many more. You will have to make some effort yourself if you want to be informed about all of this. There was a recent article about 40 Christians murdered in a church in Muslim northern Nigeria on Easter - again. We don't have the time to find all the many many past articles on all the persecutions and ethnic cleansings going on right now, but they are happening in every Muslim dominated zone - even in non-Muslim majority countries, like the beheadings and terror in southern Thailand to drive out the majority Buddhists so a sharia state can be established, and the same is happening in the Philipines, Kenya, Nigeria etc.
 

Xil L. (40)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 10:37 am
extremists there, extremists here, extremists everywhere.
Seems crhistians are busy elsewhere during elections
 

Diana P. (12)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 10:41 am
ty for the article
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 11:09 am
I can not and do not believe in any god, NO god would create this world and all its beauty then put humans on it, the most evil animal on this planet the only animal that is killing all that is good including the planet its self.
No other animal other than human tortures and kills for sexual perversions, greed fun false religions the list is endless, some humans are so far up their own backsides they actually think they can do what ever they want to all life, and their false god will forgive them.
I do not need a god to show me how to conduct my life - I care for all living creatures but despair at humans, get real no god would create all the wonders of this world then put the human on it ! some thing evil might to destroy the good.
 

monka blank (74)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 12:16 pm
Buddhism says :" To be compassionate with beings you like is easy, the art is to have compassion towards people you don't like ".
So be it.
 

Stella AWAY W. (258)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 12:51 pm
"Though we may know Him by a thousand names, He is one and the same to us all." Gandhi

It sounds like a 'lost cause', yes - but may peace prevail!
 

pam w. (191)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 12:58 pm
To Rob & Jay---seeing them all lined up like that is stunning! And I know it's just a small part of a MUCH longer list. Thanks....
 

Stan B. (124)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 1:26 pm
Rob and Jay. Thank you so much for spending such a long time in trying to enlighten those who don't wish to be enlightened. It must have taken a lot of effort on your part to produce such a comprehensive list of references. Much appreciated and green star on its way.
 

Gene Jacobson (252)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 2:38 pm
The only real solution needs be a global one. Secular government. Believe whatever you wish on your own time but in all matters public, religion is out, because as soon as it is in - throughout recorded history, one religious group is trying to kill another. Solution, no religion in government period. Keep it private and government public. Everyone wins, everyone gets to believe what they will and no one gets to kill, oppress or otherwise harm anyone for what they believe or choose not to believe. It isn't that difficult. It simply requires our agreement. And there lies the sticking point for the Christian Taliban as well as the Islamic Taliban. No "Christian" government, no Sharia government. Secular government for the public, whatever faith you choose, for YOU, in private. Everyone else gets to make the same choice. It is the only solution that will work in the long run.
 

Barbara W. (342)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 2:43 pm
20,000 Muslims Attempt to Kill Pastor and Torch Church in Egypt
http://www.care2.com/news/member/101960828/3256529#addcomment
 

Carol Dreeszen (364)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 3:25 pm
Alan...We are all given a "free choice!" What WE do with that choice is not Gods fault!

So many green stars I can't give to some people on here! Dang!!
 

Ge M. (217)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 3:55 pm
Islam teaches hatred and the killing of the non-Muslim, that is hardly a peaceful religion. The difference between Islam and other religions is that they no longer stone adulterers or sacrifice animals (despite the few mentioned above who are actually wrong as it was only supposed to happen at the Temple) and Islam still practices these medieval abominations.

All through history Islam is known for taking over other religious buildings to make it theirs in an effort to hide/destroy that symbol. The most famous/infamous is the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem and the building of a mosque that Jews respect more than the Muslims do! They regularly destroy it inside and worship outside with their backsides towards it.....

 

TL H. (3)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 4:26 pm
Many Screamed but Few Heard.When reporter Lindsay Murdoch revealed that Islamic fanatics had forcibly circumcised men, women and children in Ambon, Indonesia, he shocked readers of the Sydney Morning Herald (27 January 2001).http://www.norm-uk.org/page.html?action=showitem&item=599
 

Patricia E. G. (52)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 6:23 pm
Hi guys :) So impressed with the magic bd.
A quote if I may, the top 10 reduced to 3.

Take care of the keeper of the nooky.

Try real hard not to kill anybody

Keep thy religion to thy self
G. Carlin
Thank you
 

Sheila D. (25)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 7:21 pm
Sadly, Indonesia doesn't like to be told what to do by the rest of the world. The only non-Muslim part of the country is Bali, and they're Hindu. Very little in the way of Christianity, and very few Christian churches. In a perfect world, we could all worship, or not, any way we liked. However, these Christians are not being denied the right to worship how they like, just not WHERE they want. I hope they get what they want, but don't expect it will happen too soon.
 

Nirvana Jaganath (26)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 10:12 pm
Very sad indead. Noted
 

Vicynthia Tjahjadi (57)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 10:22 pm
Thank you for bringing this issue to Care2. But..., I'm afraid if they're pushed harder to tolerate others, they'll become more violent. I have some friends who are moslem and they tolerate well. But, somehow, for some organizations...., I know they may act violently. But, however... in many families in Indonesia, (I still believe) when we want to change our religion, our family sometimes don't allow it. Especially, if they're Moslem or even Christian. As a Buddhist, I don't think there are many of Buddhists do the same. One of my uncle (Christian) sometimes push other family member (my grandmother and grandfather) to be Christian. And once when I accompanied my grandmother to the church, I realized I wasn't comfortable because they tried to make me thing that the only way to go to heaven is their religion. I respect the existence of religions. But...., somehow..., I could loose my respect too. And I'm thinking could it be because both of their believes are that "strong", the conflict were risen. I know it's mostly from Islam. But, with the friends I have now, I should be aware that Christians tried to push me to have their belief. My friends who are Islam can tolerate this difference and I'm lucky about that.
 

pam w. (191)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 10:26 pm
Vicynthia....these people in the article are BULLIES!

Bullies will throw around their weight....intimidate YOU so you don't speak up against their nastiness, etc.

These are people who have no empathy, nor a sense of what's fair for fellow humans who merely seek religion.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 11:09 pm
One story about the 'Global Muslim Brotherhood"---let me guess, a extremist group
Another story about a militant group in Nigeria

One story about how Israel is being put upon by the Palestinians---let me guess, the Palestinians also have their huge long list of how they are put upon by Israel

One story about a 'news network' set up in two warehouses in Iran that preaches hate and violence

A story how one member of parliament plans to submit a bill to stop construction of any more Christian churches in Kuwait. Doesn't mean it will be passed.

A story how non-Muslims in Turkey are petitioning to have equal rights as citizens---like this isn't the case in all religions in all sorts of places on the planet

A story how the B'hai faith is being persecuted in Egypt. Not the only faith persecuted on the planet, nor only by Muslims I would guess.

As for the rest suffice it to say they probably are more instances of religious persecution and oppression that you've compiled.
Christians would like to convert everyone to Christianity. So would a lot of religions. A lot of KKK and racists are probably Christians. There are TONS of lists one could compile by Jews, Muslims, atheists, spiritualists, Buddhists, as well as various sects within various religions that would contain examples of persecution and oppression, hate, prejudice....
There are tons of examples that could be compiled about various religions being persecuted and oppressed and it is political, not necessarily by another religion or for religious reasons.

It doesn't take a genius to know that with aberrated human beings, of which the vast majority are, that if you have a country that is mainly Religion A, and Religion B comes in or tries to expand or even exist, there will probably be trouble, especially if the two religions are fundamentally different.
The opposite of resolving anything to a more peaceful planet would consist of 'all the reasons why we can hate someone or something else'. It would consist of continuously engendering more hate by more people by more ways and more reasons.
You have Christians on many of your story threads who simply continuously spread hate about Muslims. You have 'spiritual' people who do the same.
You have people who would love to kill all Muslims. You have people who would love to kill (or hate, one way is just slower than the other) all Christians. You have people who don't like anyone who isn't 'their' religion. 'Their' religion is the only 'true' religion.
And if you're 'spiritual but no religion' you can spread hate about religion in general, or in particular. And you can spread hate by using all your 'reasons'. You can rag about how 'no leaders do anything about this, but they do something about that'.
One can summarize after looking at 2000,-5000 years of human religious belief-caused wars and hate and bickering and oppression and persecution amongst a stinking litany of different religions and sects, that anything going on today isn't new. Some people believe that then belonging to no religion yet being 'spiritual' gets them out of the pickle jar. Does it? Oh yeah, there's political beliefs, sexual, racist, ideologies of a thousand types, and all the accompanying bias and prejudices that go along with that stuff.

All I know is WHAT YOU HATE YOU BECOME. It's a trap.



.








 

pam w. (191)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 11:22 pm
Kenneth...let me ask you something......have YOU personally traveled through an Islamic country? I don't mean getting off a cruise ship & visiting a market....I mean TRAVELING through? Have you seen the way women are treated? How about the way dogs are treated? (I personally have seen groups of boys encouraged to kick/stone sick, stray dogs in Egypt. This from adult men, by the way.)

You can dismiss all this with "politically correct" platitudes, such as "sexual, racist, ideologies of a thousand types, and all the accompanying bias and prejudices that go along with that stuff."

But....THESE THINGS ARE BASED IN TRUTH! Islam is practiced by people all over the globe....so....announcing that I "hate" Islam, so I ''must be" a racist is just nonsense.

Here's the thing---we in Western society tend to see things through the filter of our "taken for granted" freedoms. We think Muslims in foreign countries see/want/hope for things WE see/want/hope for.

WRONG!

It's lovely and admirable to live your life under the "What you hate you become" motto! it's lovely/admirable to live your life under karmic principles and it's lovely/admirable to be an AMISH person....

However, fundamental religious THUGS will use your passive attitude as a wedge to drive their religion into your world!

DO NOT EVER THINK that fundamentalist Muslims aren't ready & willing to lie, cheat & steal to achieve their objective.....suppression of all religious thinking other than Islam!


 

Kenneth L. (314)
Wednesday April 18, 2012, 11:40 pm
Pam, by reading all your posts on this thread you're a prime example of a hate-monger, continuously spreading all your 'reasons to hate' and 'invitations to hate' that you can possibly come up with. Lily-white, perfect, Pam is good, others bad, I bet you have no prejudice in your body, telling others what to think about others, you're already so far in the trap.

What the hell are you talking about----'AMISH' person? I'm not Amish. As I said you're as big as a religious bigot and chaos merchant as they come.

I don't live my live under 'karmic' principles and believe me I'm about as politically incorrect as it gets.

You can't stand anything that isn't hate. Oh well. Live with it.
 

Charles O. (209)
Thursday April 19, 2012, 12:43 am
Excellent comment, Kenneth L..

It seems to me that the person addicted to Hate and Fear suffers from a lack of faith in himself. He's afraid of the Other, because he has no firm grasp on his own principles. He fears that he will be seduced or converted, so he puts up a wall of hatred and covers up his own shortcomings by demonizing the Other.

The Hater has a "negative identity": He knows what he isn't, but not what he is. Thirty years ago, we Americans defined ourselves as the negation of the Soviet people. We projected our own dark side onto the Soviet Union, and then disowned that side of ourselves. We ceased to see ourselves as an actor or agent. Instead, our identity consisted of reacting to the Soviet Union. We attributed all responsibility and power to the latter. We ourselves were nothing but a Helpless Defenseless Pitiful Giant -- or so we believed.

The reality, of course, was just the opposite: It was the U.S. that led the race to the nuclear abyss, and it was the U.S. that operated an ever-expanding empire. But the Hater isn't interested in objective reality. Objective reality is drowned out by a subjective need to maintain childlike innocence, avoid responsibility, and shift responsibility onto the Other. This inability to accept responsibility and deal with the world in an adult way is characteristic of the narcissist.
 

Berny p. (23)
Thursday April 19, 2012, 3:25 am

The day Indonesian Muslims build churches for their Christian citizens....

the day Jews are safe and unmolested in Islamic countries....

the day Muslims move into Western cultures and live without trying to change those cultures to suit themselves....

THAT is when it begins to grow.

SO....dont hold your breath!
 

Phyllis Baxter (40)
Thursday April 19, 2012, 3:59 am
"A historical look at the birth of Islam"
There was once a man called Muhammed who was thoroughly hacked off that the Arabs didn't have a religion of their own. After careful thought he went about telling people he had had divine revelations from a super-being called Allah.
Over the next ten years he plagiarised the then established religions, built in some of his own ideas, was ridiculed and laughed at by some but convinced a handful of others. Unfortunately the growth of his religion was very slow.
One day whilst wandering in the desert with his band of followers, he came across a travelling caravan. He spoke to the men leading the camels to try to enroll them into his creed. The men laughed at him and called him any number of obnoxious names. This really upset him so he and his followers set about the men killing them all.
The camels, and the bounty they were carrying, were shared amongst the followers. This act was lawful according to Muhammed because Allah had told him in a dream-like state that Jihad in the name of Allah was a good thing and the booty was to be enjoyed by true believers.
When other people heard that there was a religion whose God allowed the followers to be rewarded for violence they all wanted a piece of the action....
The rest is history.

Arthur English
 

Sharon Balloch (132)
Thursday April 19, 2012, 5:38 am
DR. IZZELDIN ABUELAISH.. A Muslim .Born and raised in a refugee camp.He still tried to do good in the world..both his wife and mother died.. then his 3 beautiful daughters murdered, torn apart by bombs. His whole world destroyed.
This Muslim man did not sink into hatred and finger pointing.. he does not condemn the religion of others nor see atheists as an enemy..He does not hate.
Who here has that kind of love in their hearts that your children could be murdered, torn apart ... who here has as much reason to hate as this Muslim man does..
Stalin and Lenin were atheists and they were haters.. they killed more people than all the religious wars since the beginning of time, You do not need a religion to be a hater..anyone can preach hatred of others.
But what this Muslim man did about the murder of his daughters.. he created the Daughters for Life, a charity that provides young women in high school and university the opportunity to develop a strong voice and play a more influential role in improving the quality of life throughout the Middle East through their education.

So what is it that you are doing..
As a Christian I see this Muslim man as someone who is shining a light in the world.. and I count him as one of my blessings..

Some here are haters.. with religion or not.. haters are just haters. Fear mongers.. and finger pointers, they add to the violence and the hatred.They are the problem not the solution.

 

pam w. (191)
Thursday April 19, 2012, 7:13 am
When logic fails you....blame the person you're debating as a "racist" or a "hater."

Kenneth can't respond to my questions, so he accuses me of "hatred/racism" even though Islam has people of all colors and is allegedly a religion...NOT a "race."

Certainly there are good, kind, devout Muslims. We aren't talking about those. We are talking about fundamental governments which impose hateful "religious" practices on citizens who don't share their "faith." Islam is a political system which attempts to impose itself in every facet of every citizen's life. It provides no freedoms of speech, thought, artistic expression or religion other than itself.

And Sharon.....I'd point out to you that Stalin AND Hitler were raised as religious people. I'd like you to find me some valid statistics to back up your comment that "they killed more people than all the religious wars since the beginning of time." Are you trying to excuse the actions of the Indonesian government by bringing in the old "atheists are more evil than theists" argument?

Kenneth, you've got your own agenda, it seems....stand up for bullies, ignore logic, spew insults at those who disagree with you and apply labels with impunity.

Pity. I'll repeat my statement above...."The day Indonesian Muslims build churches for their Christian citizens....

the day Jews are safe and unmolested in Islamic countries....

the day Muslims move into Western cultures and live without trying to change those cultures to suit themselves....

THAT is when it begins to grow. (meaning peace and tolerance.)"
 

Rob and Jay B. (121)
Thursday April 19, 2012, 7:36 am
Kenneth L, your total lack of concern or compassion for the victims of Islamofascism is no surprise. You never have had any. You have always only expressed hate and contempt for them. This is nothing new with you and your ilk. You scoff at millions being persecuted, Islamic authorities ordering churches destroyed, hundreds of churches that have been destroyed, hundreds of thousands forced to flee their native lands (Iraq and Egypt especially), but you don't care. But you'll spout outrage if one Qur'an is burned, won't you? Where in the world is violence against Islam happening on this scale? Nowhere.

It's odd how you here who call people opposed to the hate, intolerance and violence of Islamists call those people 'haters'. Do you think those who condemn the intolerance of the Republican Party, the Catholic church, the Nazis, the Iranian mullahs etc are 'haters'? Of course you don't. Only when someone criticizes Islam. Charles O's hatred of everything USAmerican and Israeli doesn't rate? He seethes with hatred, but can only defend the most violent hateful religious ideology on earth. Hypocrites.

It's funny how you ignore the head of the BBC admitting how the media soft peddles Islamic atrocities because they fear the violence it might unleash, yet they don't fear denigrating Jesus or Christianity or Judaism. Kenneth says atrocities happen in every land. Canada? What other lands are Muslims being ethnically cleansed in?

http://www.persecution.org/2012/03/30/the-plight-of-egypts-coptic-christians/

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/266793/persecution-egypt-s-coptic-christians-continues-nina-shea

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

Hundreds of churches burned in Indonesia:

http://www.rantrave.com/Rant/CHURCHES-DESTROYED-AND-BURNED-IN-INDONESIA.aspx

http://www.christianpost.com/news/churches-burned-over-indonesias-blasphemy-case-48890/

Here are a lot of photos of beheadings, rapes, beatings, murders, nipples cut off, etc of Christians and Ahmadis in Indonesia:
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Images_of_Jihad_%28Indonesia%29

Islamist atrocities by country:
http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Persecution_of_Non-Muslims

These aren't Qur'ans being seized in non-Muslim countries:
http://www.christianpost.com/news/iran-seizes-6500-bibles-to-stop-deceiving-christian-missionaries-54076/

Persecution of Christians from an exMuslim victim of Islam:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/02/05/ayaan-hirsi-ali-the-global-war-on-christians-in-the-muslim-world.html

Study of 10 religions - Islam is most aggressive against others:
http://jp.dk/indland/article223091.ece

100,000 Coptic Christians flee Egypt out of fear:
http://www.christiannewstoday.com/Christian_News_Report_900171.html

Islamic scriptures are full of hate of non-Muslims and commands to kill them, not to befriend them, dominate them etc. Where did Buddha or Jesus preach anything like that? If they did you'd be foaming at the mouth with hatred toward them, wouldn't you?
 

Carola May (20)
Thursday April 19, 2012, 9:00 am
It's interesting that the ratings of countries for 2012 for freedom of religion shows no Muslim ruled country as free except Indonesia! And by all the articles I've read the past few months, that is amazing. But that rating is based on their laws granting freedom of religion, but apparently not on how well they enforce them:

2012 FREEDOMHOUSE LIST OF RELIGIOUS FREEDOM BY COUNTRY:
http://www.freedomhouse.org/sites/default/files/inline_images/Table%20of%20Independent%20Countries%2C%20FIW%202012%20draft.pdf

Along these same lines it is interesting for those who have actually studied Islam, read the Qur'an, hadith and sira, as well as done a lot of reading of other aspects, how ignorant so many people are here and how quick to jump to the defence of this intolerant ideology. Just like so many liberals did for Nazism in the 1930s (even after they started their conquests and exterminations).

No one is condemning all Muslims as people, any more than anyone can say all Communists, Nazis, Mormons or Republicans are bad people. Of course they aren't. Many Muslims have fled to the West to escape Islam's oppression. Many others aren't any more religious or knowledgeable of their religion than any other group, and others only want to believe in the early writings of Mohammed when he was more tolerant (though all of those early writings were abrogated by the more militant, intolerant, hateful later ones). There are even a handful of Muslims who want Islam to come into the modern scientific world and abandon all the hate, violence and killing it espouses, but interestingly enough, they are all under death sentences.

BUT the ideology of Islam, like that of the Nazis and Republicans IS intolerant and hateful. So criticising the hateful teachings of Islam is certainly fair game. It is after all just another opinion, superstition, belief system like any other.

It's incredible how those who know nothing about Islam are so apt to spout their ignorance with such loud glee, making fools of themselves.

There isn't room enough here to list all the verses of Islamic scripture that preach hate, violence and intolerance against non-Muslims. But the prime book on Islamic jurisprudence, "The Reliance of the Traveller", which Sharia/Islamic law is based upon and is accepted throughout Islam as THE Islamic law account says quite clearly how non-Muslims are to be treated:

The doctrine of al-wala’a wal bara’a is:

“hatred for the sake of Allah, being unyielding toward the unbelievers, hard against them and
detesting them”(Law w59.2 page 1015)

The unbeliever (kafir) is hated by Allah and believing Muslims as the Quran explains:
1. The unbeliever (kafir) is the vilest of creatures [Sura 8:55]
2. The kafirs are greatly hated by Allah and his believers [Sura 40:35]
3. A kafir can be mocked [Sura 83:34], beheaded [Sura 47:4], plotted against [Sura 86:15],
terrorised [Sura 8:12], disgraced [Sura 37:18] and cursed [Sura 33:16].
Muslims are not to befriend kafirs [Sura 5:51,57) and are not to give charity (zakat) to an unbeliever,
according to law h8.24 on page 274 (the Reliance of the Traveller).

It goes on to say that there is no penalty for killing a non-Muslim.

For those who truly want to know more about Islam's tenets Google "Pact of Omar" to see how non-Muslims have been traditionally treated in Islamic controlled lands. Some of that has been lessened in the present times, but much still remains in tact.

I have Coptic Egyptian Christian friends who fled Egypt because of the persecution and now live in the UK. I wish you apologists for Islam, Kenneth and Charles O especially, could talk to these lovely people and hear the fear, persecution, oppression, discrimination, hatred and violence they lived with daily under Islamic rule. You might not be so argumentative then, but then maybe you still wouldn't care a whit.
 

Rob and Jay B. (121)
Thursday April 19, 2012, 9:13 am
Sharon Balloch, are you accusing all those who oppose the hateful teachings, violence and intolerance of Islamic scriptures and history as 'haters'? That's mighty 'hateful' of you.

So you have a nice Muslims man who is kind? Good for him. There are a lot of nice Muslims. No one is saying there aren't. What is it with you Islamist apologists? Aren't you paying any attention? Islam DOES teach hate, intolerance and violence. Its scriptures (Qur'an, hadith and sira) are full of it. Fortunately all Muslims don't practice it all.

You claim to be a Christian. Do you know that Islam teaches blasphemy about Jesus Christ? It says he wasn't the Son of God, wasn't crucified nor resurrected, was 'just a man' and to top it off he was a Muslim. Christians are said to be 'evil livers' and Christianity (along with Judaism) is corrupt, as is the Bible.

Muslims, especially when they are a small minority like in the US (0.8%) are careful to not make too many waves, but ask them if they believe people who criticize Islam or leave it should be killed, or if gay people should be killed. Do they renounce Islam's teaching that rape victims are sex criminals and should be stoned? Ask them about what they think of Jesus. They'll skirt around the answers of these questions and they'll tell you they believe in Jesus, but don't let them sidestep these questions. You'll see just what they really believe.

Islam has never been reformed and can't be without admitting Mohammed was wrong and therefore a false prophet. To renounce any tenet of Islam (like killing apostates, critics or gays) is apostasy, and that is a death sentence. You'll have a hard time finding even your nicest Muslim who will renounce any of these things.

There are nice Muslims, but Islam is NOT nice or loving or tolerant. Mohammed taught the exact opposite of everything that Jesus taught in the Gospels - everything.

Before you make such sweeping judgements of others, find out what you're talking about. There were good Nazi people too who didn't kill or persecute anyone, but Nazism did.
 

Lindsay Kemp (1)
Thursday April 19, 2012, 9:16 am
Each of us should respect and care for each other, and not be afraid of our differneces..
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Thursday April 19, 2012, 6:16 pm
Pam you're out to lunch. I never accused you of being a racist. FALSE. I know very well Islam is a religion, not a race. You're a hate-monger and religious bigot, you'll even use the Amish religion against someone (which I'm not). Go bark up some other tree.
Rob and J., I don't 'stand up' for any bullies. False. I forgot to add that in my last post, I don't condone religious persecution or oppression or violence wherever it occurs.
Rob and J:---"Kenneth L, your total lack of concern or compassion for the victims of Islamofascism is no surprise. You never have had any" Now how can you say that? You don't me squat in real life or in the past. That's just an attempt to make something sound bad, which you're VERY VERY good at.
You've been a hate-monger since the very first of your long line of anti-Islam stories in Care2.

Rob and J---"You have always only expressed hate and contempt for them. This is nothing new with you and your ilk. You scoff at millions being persecuted, Islamic authorities ordering churches destroyed, hundreds of churches that have been destroyed, hundreds of thousands forced to flee their native lands (Iraq and Egypt especially), but you don't care."
LOL! All you're doing is presumptuous rhetorical speculation of me in an attempt to discredit and squash. You're VERY VERY good at that too.

After all your endless gibbering about Islam Rob and J. you never do it with any view of helping of any situation on the planet, never mentioning any slightest hint of solving or resolving anything, so what purpose or goal do you have?
I don't see a SINGLE speck from you other than how BAD Islam is. Ever. That's it. Nothing else. In no way shape or form! So what stinking purpose do you have? What goal?

Actually, your statement on your profile that 'all religion is blasphemy' precludes you from having any validity about ANY religion since it immediately shows your bias going into anything religious right from the start.

Rob and J. are 'authorities' on the subject of Islam. They 'know more', they 'know what's going on, what's REALLY going on', they know 'the truth about Islam' lol lol lol!
They proceed to TELL EVERYONE what's 'going on', what 'the truth is regarding Islam' , what it is and what is isn't' yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda ad infinitum..
They are engaged in manipulation and control of what and how other people should think. Any differing idea or opinion about Islam is squashed as you can see.

Some SELL, PROVIDE, AND SPREAD INVITATIONS TO HATE. It is a trap to succumb to invitations to hate. Doesn't matter who or what.







 

pam w. (191)
Thursday April 19, 2012, 6:20 pm
Here are the rules ISLAM FANS use when responding to reporting of news re: Islam or criticism of Islam.

#1....Deny, deny deny. If someone quotes a source....declare it an "ISLAMIC HATE SITE." If it turns out that the site is actually FROM Muslims or a deed is proven to be committed BY Muslims....announce that they are MISUNDERSTANDING "true" Islam! Insult character, intelligence, knowledge or anything possible to throw doubt on the other person's intelligence. If someone produces indisputable facts....just DENY, DENY, DENY...emphatically and LOUDLY.

#2...When logic fails, INSULT the person making the statement. Insult them....call them "racist," "haters"...whatever words you can find to vilify them. Insult character, intelligence, knowledge or anything possible to throw doubt on the other person's intelligence. If someone produces indisputable facts....just DENY, DENY, DENY...emphatically and LOUDLY.


Then, return to rule #1. If someone produces indisputable facts....just DENY, DENY, DENY...emphatically and LOUDLY.

#3...SMOKESCREEN....whenever logic or truth fail.....smokescreen! Change the subject. Accuse Western society or Christianity or, whenever possible....ACCUSE ISRAEL!
 

Stan B. (124)
Thursday April 19, 2012, 6:27 pm
Kenneth L. " Rob and J. are 'authorities' on the subject of Islam. They 'know more', they 'know what's going on, what's REALLY going on', they know 'the truth about Islam."
This is about the only thing you got right.
 

pam w. (191)
Thursday April 19, 2012, 6:42 pm
Stan, I've noticed many times that people who have never BEEN in Islamic countries or, like R&J, have actually LIVED in countries with large Islamic populations are often the first to pounce on the opinions of those who are more experienced and educated in these matters.

But...you can't argue with stupid.
 

Joan H. (20)
Thursday April 19, 2012, 6:51 pm
Kenneth L, there's a big difference between being a hate monger, as you put it, and being naive and stupid when it comes to the "religion of peace". Apparently mostly everyone on this thread is a dumbass compared to you. So, what makes you an authority on Islam? All you've done is thrown insults and claim everyone should be tolerant. You go ahead and keeping waving that tolerant flag, we'll see where that'll getcha.
 

Carola May (20)
Friday April 20, 2012, 5:45 am
Trying to reason with people like Kenneth L is not possible. He is ignorant of the subject at hand, has no proof to offer for his hateful comments and he always is like this - obstinate. He seems to enjoy being contrary. It would be nice if he knew anything about what he says, but he doesn't. Kenneth you make a fool of yourself with your ignorant, rude ravings.

You and your ignorant ilk make charges of others and call them 'hatemongers' etc when they are the ones who are opposing the hate of islam, which you would know if you knew anything about it. Would you call people 'haters' for opposing the bigoted teachings of the Republican party on women and gays? Of course you wouldn't. Well, you probably would.

Here's a good test to show who is an Islamophobe:


Do you favor equal rights and treatment of women and men?

Do you oppose stoning of women accused of adultery?

Do you favor mandatory education of girls everywhere?

Do you oppose slavery and child prostitution?

Do you support complete freedom of expression and the press?

Do you support the right of an individual to worship in her chosen religion?

Do you oppose government- and mosque-supported anti-Semitic publications, radio, TV and textbooks?

Do you oppose the wearing of burqas in public places, schools and courts?

Do you oppose segregation of the sexes in public places and houses of worship?

Do you oppose the death penalty for nonMuslims and Muslims who convert to another religion or criticize Islam?

Do you oppose "honor" killings?

Do you oppose female genital mutilation?

Do you oppose forced sexual relations?

Do you oppose discrimination against homosexuals and killing them?

Do you support the right to criticize religion?

Do you oppose polygamy?

Do you oppose child marriage, forced or otherwise?

Do you oppose the qu-ranic mandate to kill nonMuslims and apostates?

Do you oppose the addition of sharia courts to your country's legal system?

Do you disagree with the qu-ran which asserts the superiority of Islam to all other religions?

If you answered most or all of these affirmatively, you are a vile Islamophobe and deserve to be beheaded as the qu-ran instructs.

If you answered one third or more of them affirmatively, you are a borderline Islamophobe and need to receive brainwashing to become a full-fledged dhimmi.

If you answered a quarter or fewer affirmatively, you need a few private lessons in dhimmitude to scrub yourself clean of those remnants of Islamophobia.(by Lorna Salzman)

If you answered affirmatively to NONE of these, Congratulations! you are a worthy observant Muslim and have a bright future vilifying Jews, killing gay people, torturing women or inshallah, becoming a suicide bomber.

Kenneth, Charles and a few other dhimmis apparently would answer NO to most of these where I, Rob and Jay, Pam, Joan and others would answer YES to all of these. If opposing all this hate and oppression brands us as 'Islamophobes' then we wear the title proudly along with all those down through history who have fought against hate and oppression.

Kenneth and Charles and their ilk were also the ones who condemned all those who opposed the policies and acts of Hitler and the Nazis and called these opponents of oppression and hate 'hatemongers' too. Chamberlain, the BBC, the Times and liberal churchmen condemned Churchill and others who tried to warn of the dangers of Nazism, just like today, only now they are all appeasing Islam (which Hitler loved).

History repeats itself, sadly.
 

Charles O. (209)
Friday April 20, 2012, 7:06 am
Hello Carola May --

I took your test and answered "Yes" 18 times out of 20. I answered "No" when asked whether I favor banning burkhas and polygamy -- I think people should be free to wear whatever they want and I do not want the state to be involved in marriage.

I oppose fascism and I oppose appeasement. I oppose the war against Muslims, for the same reason that I oppose a war against Jews. I reject anti-Semitism, or any ideology that denigrated entire ethnic or religious groups.I oppose the policies of the Hitlerites, just as much as I oppose the policies of the Zionists today. In fact, the two are often indistinguishable.

I am not a fan of Islam, but Islam doesn't threaten me. The fanatical haters of Islam -- e.g., you -- do threaten me, because you are trying to drag my country into a suicidal conflict with a quarter of the human race. I reject your methods: You can't bomb people into loving America.

When you use words like "dhimmi" and "ilk" to denigrate people who believe in religious freedom, you give us the impression that you have been consumed by religious hatred.

I find your hatred self-defeating. If you had more faith in yourself and your own culture, you would not be in such a frenzy to demonize other cultures.
 

Charles O. (209)
Friday April 20, 2012, 7:36 am
Kenneth L. writes:

> After all your endless gibbering about Islam Rob and J. you never do it with any view of helping of any situation on the planet, never mentioning any slightest hint of solving or resolving anything, so what purpose or goal do you have?

. .

Hello Kenneth L.. You've hit on one of the hallmarks of the hate-freak: He never tries to improve the situation. He needs to feel superior to others, so he needs others to seem inferior. The worse the behavior of the group he targets, the better he feels.

. .

Carola May writes:

> BUT the ideology of Islam, like that of the Nazis and Republicans IS intolerant and hateful. So criticising the hateful teachings of Islam is certainly fair game. It is after all just another opinion, superstition, belief system like any other.

. .

I have no objection to criticism, Carola. But nobody is calling for us to bomb Republicans, whereas we are bombing Islamic countries -- and making them worse, not better, in the process. I distinguish between constructive criticism and incitement to war, and many of the posts here seem to fall in the latter category.

Religions often thrive under persecution, as Stalin discovered. Those who seek to eradicate entire religions are making the same mistake that Stalin and Hitler made. Millions will be killed, and, in the end, the religion will emerge stronger. Look at Zionism -- the monster Hitler created with his genocidal policy towards Jews. Zionism has, in turn, spawned Islamism. We are going backwards!

If you truly oppose Islam, ignore it, expose it to benign neglect. Give Muslims no cause to feel persecuted. The more you hate a religion, the more you give ammunition to religious zealots who hate your medieval "Crusade mentality". Back off, let the wound heal, nurture the positive.
 

Eli T. (90)
Friday April 20, 2012, 8:09 am
I can understand Kennith's attraction to such a mentality that many reject. In May 2007 Dr. Izzat Atiyya, lecturer at Cairo's Al-Azhar University, issued a fatwa that suggested that male and female colleagues could use breastfeeding to get around a religious ban on being alone together. The fatwa said that if a woman fed a male colleague "directly from her breast" at least five times they would establish a family bond and thus be allowed to be alone together at work. "Breast feeding an adult puts an end to the problem of the private meeting, and does not ban marriage," he ruled. "A woman at work can take off the veil or reveal her hair in front of someone whom she breastfed.
Such Fatwa's might be an attraction for some, until it is his daughter that is being forced to breastfeed a man.
Imagine a Brit being forced to breast feed a colleague at the supermarket or Downing St. LOL
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Friday April 20, 2012, 12:39 pm
When I see a whitewash of an entire religion, such as from Rob and J., who proceed to be 'authorities' on a religion and tell others what to think by manipulation and control, I know what I'm looking at.
When I see endless squashing of an entire religion with no intention of how to solve or resolve or help the situation I also know what I'm looking at.
I've never said I'm an authority on Islam, nor am I. Nice try Joan.
Nor have I told anyone what to think about Islam. IN FACT I haven't said A SINGLE THING about Islam.! But I have said things about hate and hate-mongers. You don't like it, too bad.
I recognize truckloads of whitewash and hate, continuous and with no value behind it.

I have 'no attraction to Islam' Eli T. FALSE.
I'm not pro or anti Islam.
I'm not interested in any quiz by you Carola. I have no need to state my opinions on anything other than I've stated them on in this thread. You engage in the same presumptions and rhetoric as Rob and J. and Pam W. with statements like "Kenneth and Charles and their ilk were also the ones who condemned all those who opposed the policies and acts of Hitler and the Nazis". You're a JOKE! You have no clue what I think about Hitler or the Nazis. LOL! Btw, Do you know there is a law time that says arguments will finally end up with the 'Hitler-Nazi' comparison. Godwin's Law.

Where persecution and injustice and oppression and occur it should be righted. But it is a trap to succumb to invitations to hate. And the hate-mongers don't like being told to stop. Takes fuel from the chaos merchants.
 

pam w. (191)
Friday April 20, 2012, 9:26 pm
You engage in the same presumptions and rhetoric as Rob and J. and Pam W.
"Kenneth and Charles and their ilk were also the ones who condemned all those who opposed the policies and acts of Hitler and the Nazis".


+++++++++++++++ SHOW ME WHERE I SAID THAT? I don't THINK so...
 

pam w. (191)
Friday April 20, 2012, 9:28 pm
But....I'll remind you of rules 1-2....when defending Islam....

1. Deny, deny, deny

2. Insult, apply labels, use every nasty insult to attempt to make your debate opponent look silly. (It won't WORK, of course....but, try, TRY, TRYYYYY!)
 

Eli T. (90)
Saturday April 21, 2012, 2:47 am
Kennith, it seems yet again you are getting your facts mixed up. The statement "Kenneth and Charles and their ilk were also the ones who condemned all those who opposed the policies and acts of Hitler and the Nazi" was in fact made by Carola.
I recommend you take as much time reviewing FACTS as you do hate mongering. It might lead to a very different perspective on the world.
 

monica r. (41)
Saturday April 21, 2012, 7:45 am
Charles,
I see the problem. I think you DO oppose the totalitarianism and human rights atrocities demanded by Islam/sharia. You seem to have one sticking point, which is your assumption that anyone who disagrees with an ideology automatically wants to BOMB the purveyors of said ideology.

It is so pervasive in your comments that I wonder whether some projection is involved. Did you grow up in a "war-hawk" family or something?

NOBODY here has even once suggested bombing anybody. For one thing, how would that help? Look at the Islamophobe quiz. How many of those things are mainly persecution of people born into Islamic families/countries? So they are already being victimized by Islam, just by accident of birth. The prime victims of jihad are MUSLIMS. These would be your average, nice, just-going-about-the-business-of-life Muslims. The mother and her kids asleep in their beds. The grocery delivery truck driver, a local policeman, girls on their way to school, the boy riding with his dad on a motorcycle, all suddenly BOMBED or shot, or throats cut, not by the West, but by their co-religionists. Bombing will only hurt these ordinary Muslims more, and none of us here opposing Islam's IDEOLOGY have any reason to want to see Muslim PEOPLE harmed.

In fact sectarian violence is a huge problem as well, within Islam. Sunni vs Shi'a, Salafists and Wahabbists vs pretty much everyone. And the brutal murders of those in sects like the Ahmadiyya go on unabated. They're already bombing each other and so bombing clearly won't help there either.

Charles, can you somehow not separate an ideology from the practitioners? The ideology is the problem. The people are people and most are not committing acts of violent jihad, though many are. Until now the collateral damage to Muslims resulting from terror acts hasn't been an issue for those waging it. Only recently have some extremists said "hey, we're killing mostly Muslims," though the solution could be kill more non-Muslims rather than stop killing Muslims. We'll see.

There are non-violent solutions and some of us do activism along those lines, such as education. In fact education to end the gender-gap and also illiteracy issues in Muslim countries would be more effective than any military response. In some cases it's not easy. Afghan girls who go to school get killed, raped, or acid-attacked on a fairly regular basis. Still I do not support the war there and in fact women's rights there have been dragged backwards due to Western meddling.

Hating an ideology that oppresses people shows caring for those people. Abuses like FGM, child marriage, the baad in Afghanistan (females given as payment to victims of crime), killing gays, and punishing rape victims are all part and parcel of the ideology. But who are the victims? The West? Or the 8 year old girl kidnapped from her bed, forced to work as a slave, not allowed to wash her only set of clothes for 6 months, and only fed bread and water every other day (nothing at all the other days)? Maybe the 12 year old whose family leaves the UK on holiday to Pakistan, only to find herself forcibly married to a cousin three times her age? And the girl held down as her legs are forced apart and a dirty razor (just used on 3 other girls ahead of her) cuts away part of her genitals, as she almost faints from the pain and sight and smell of all the blood and that piece of her is dropped underfoot on the floor like so much meat? Perhaps the boy who has tried so hard to hide his attraction to other males, and the terror that fills his heart and mind as the hood is put over his head and the noose is fitted around his neck? Or the girl who has dreamed of being a teacher, or dare she even imagine it -- a doctor -- who gets acid thrown in her face, disfiguring her and blinding her permanently, and ending any chance of an education?

See, the ideology does those things. The people, individuals with hopes and dreams of their own, are the ones harmed by it, forced to submit, submission being the meaning of Islam. We are against the ideology. We care about the people.
 

monica r. (41)
Saturday April 21, 2012, 8:52 am
Mr. Kenneth "When I want Your Opinion I'll Give It To You" L.,

Just how are you "helping this planet to a pretty great degree" by bashing people who vocally oppose human rights abuses? You claim you are neither for nor against Islam, and admit you are no authority on it. Yet you are perfectly ready to attack and accuse people who ARE authorities on it, have read and studied the quran and hadith, which you have not, and do in fact understand what it's really about far better than you are currently equipped to. I wish you would look into it. If you did you would realize some people here have studied it quite extensively, and in several cases have lived with it or seen it up close and personal. Since you have not done those things, you are in no position to judge.

You claim to care about animals (or maybe just cats and wild animals?). Do you know in Spain Muslims poison their Spanish neighbors' dogs? Are you aware that Muslims in Belgium are trying to outlaw pet dogs? This isn't "a country that is mainly Religion A, and Religion B comes in or tries to expand or even exist," but rather "a country that is mainly Culture A, and Religion/Ideology B comes in and tries to not let Culture A even exist." Sharia is like that. Islam says dogs are unclean, so non-Muslims shouldn't have them either. Please, as "homework" go on youtube and type in Eid al Adha. Watch some videos there. Non-trained butchery of animals not rendered insensible to pain is what you'll see. A guy in CA is currently charged with quite a few crimes for doing the same type of thing. Care2 just carried this "backyard butcher" story recently. He was selling the meat to Muslims; he was doing halal butchery. I hope you don't think it's okay for millions of animals around the world, but just not okay for those few in California. It certainly meets your criteria of harming animals "out of indifference or stupidity" and in many cases, where the animal is laughed at as it struggles and chokes on blood as it gurgles it's last breaths, it's not indifference but outright cruelty.

If you think every culture or ideology is just as valid as the next, you are as PC as they come. Flat out, where does YOUR moral superiority come from? Why is it better, as you believe, to be kind to animals or care for the natural world? Why is that a better ideology than "they're here for our use and abuse" or "better cruel to animals than cruel to people" or "exploit nature for every penny you can squeeze from it because I want a new yacht again this year"? If you think your philosophy is better, then you claim moral superiority. So then why are we wrong for wanting equality for women, gays to be who they are without risking death, freedom of religion, freedom of expression etc? I support the Universal declaration of Human Rights. Sharia is antithetical to that and so I oppose it, and Islam, from which it is inseparable. I support the human rights of those under Islam and sharia, who the ideology, political system, and legal system are currently abusing.

Also, to "whitewash" something is to cover up or ignore its faults, and Rob and Jay do NOT whitewash Islam; au contraire, they do all they can to expose it's injustices. You claim to be able to "clearly see the underlying thing regarding anything" but I am confused as to why you are so blind to it where Islam is concerned. Perhaps you should look into it some before you comment so extensively.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Saturday April 21, 2012, 2:07 pm
Pam you tried to use the AMISH religion against me, which I'm not. You're a religious bigot, doesn't matter what the religion is. You can't even take responsibility for that lol.
You're like a barking dog. I already said I'm neither pro nor anti Islam. You're out to lunch as I said earlier. Still out to lunch.

Eli YOU said quote "I can understand Kennith's attraction to such a mentality..." (meaning Islam) and I said quote "I have 'no attraction to Islam' Eli T. FALSE." THAT'S IT. THAT'S THE ENTIRETY OF WHAT I SAID TO YOU PERIOD. You're the one who doesn't get their facts straight.
I know full well Carola said the thing about Hitler and the Nazi's, not you. Which is why I addressed the 'Godwin's Law' to her.

(My, my, how upset the hate-mongers get when someone reveals them. LOL!)

MOnica, NOBODY on this thread is an 'authority' on Islam. There are know-it-alls, that's it. So disabuse yourself of that idea.

You actually think you can try to use my profile against me. Pathetic.

YOU'RE the one spewing all the 'moral superiority' Monica, your post is full of it.

No wonder a single Muslim never comes on Rob and J's threads, well, I saw it once, and Rob and J. (and other little cronies like most on this thread) simply squash anything said by that Muslim, their belief, what they think about Islam, what they say about it, and it's THEIR religion, all stomped and squashed by peons who think they know it all about Islam and will tell everyone what to think about Islam, muslim and non-muslim alike.

As Charles said, the 'hate-freaks' NEVER offer any help, any solution, or something constructive in lieu of all their endless bashing, never anything with a view to improving anything. That reveals itself on this thread.

Amazing how some little hate-mongers feel justified in bashing a billion people of Islam, but don't like it when they're bashed. LOL

Again I repeat ITS A TRAP TO SUCCUMB TO INVITATIONS TO HATE.
 

Charles O. (209)
Sunday April 22, 2012, 5:56 pm
monica r. writes:

> Yet you are perfectly ready to attack and accuse people who ARE authorities on it, have read and studied the quran and hadith, which you have not

Millions of Muslims have read and studied the quran and hadith, Monica. Why do you not regard them as authorities, then? You seem to apply the term "authority" only to those who demonize Islam.

Are there any evils in this world that are NOT caused by Islam, in your opinion? Was WW I caused by Islam? WW II -- 55 million dead -- Was that caused by Islam? What about the millions who were killed by Stalin and Mao? Is this due to Islam?

What about the destruction of Vietnam and the destruction of Iraq and the destruction of Libya? Is this the fault of Islam? Or is it the fault of a war-addicted superpower? What about Palestinians, stripped of their land, living under military occupation and bombardment for the last 44 years? Did Islam do that?

What solution do you offer, monica? Burn Muslims at the stake? Wipe Islamic countries off the map? Have a new Crusade? Start WW III? To me, all of these "cures" seem much worse than the disease.

If you want to do something PRACTICAL to improve human rights in the Middle East, that's great! But that's not what the haters are doing. They are obsessed with Muslims in exactly the same way that the Hitlerites were obsessed with Jews. That obsessive hatred and demonization is just not healthy.
 

pam w. (191)
Monday April 23, 2012, 7:10 am
Kenneth, I see you're still demonstrating the rules of defense for Islam.

1. Deny, deny, deny. If someone presents facts or asks questions which prove Islam is NOT the peaceful, loving, tolerant religion it purports itself to be.... ignore them.

2. Insult the questioner with every possible diffusion you can concoct.

3. Repeat rule #1.
 

Ruth R. (219)
Tuesday April 24, 2012, 2:05 am
ALL THESE NEWS ARTICLES ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS NEED TO HAVE AT LEAST ONE WELL WRITTEN PETITION, AND THEY NEED TO BE SHARED EVERWHERE POSSIBLE. PLEASE WILL YOU WRITE SOME PETITIONS -- SOME MAN, WOMAN, ORGANIZATION WITH THE WILL, THE BACKING, AND THE KNOWLEDGE OF HOW TO WRITE REAL PETITIONS. MOST PEOPLE WILL SIGN A PETITION AND MAKE A COMMENT. LETTER WRITING CAN BE MORE THAN MANY PEOPLE KNOW HAVE TAKEN THE TIME TO DO. WE NEED TO GET A GROUP CREATED TO TAKE THIS MISSION POSSIBLE ON AND -- ALSO, WHAT EALSE CAN BE DONE?
 

Ruth R. (219)
Tuesday April 24, 2012, 2:09 am
THESE PEOPLE DID WELL AND THEIR GOV. LEADER RESPONDED WELL. THEY ALL GOT BLESSED THIS TIME.
 

pam w. (191)
Tuesday April 24, 2012, 7:40 am
Ruth...with all respect....calls for petitions aren't going to work against centuries of Islamic "culture" and religious mandates against freedoms of speech, religion, etc.

Please note that neither Kenneth nor Charles has yet agreed that the demolition of these freedoms in Muslim countries is despicable. Note that neither of them has condemned the destruction of churches in Indonesia. Instead, they focus on other issues....as is typical of Islamofans.
 

Charles O. (209)
Tuesday April 24, 2012, 8:27 am
Hello pam w. --

Please note that I regard the demolition of freedom in ANY country as despicable.

Please note that I condemn the destruction of ANY religious shrines.

I support freedom for ALL religions. Your scapegoating of ONE religion undermines religious freedom for all -- it's the "thin edge of the wedge".

Others before you have attacked religion, and the result has been disastrous: Learn from history. Your obsessive hatred fuels the very evils you pretend to oppose.

What is your Final Solution? -- killing off a quarter of the human race?

I have a better idea: Bring Muslims into the fold, so that we can learn from them and they can learn from us. And then focus on real evils -- like the system of war-making that is threatening to destroy the entire planet.
 

pam w. (191)
Tuesday April 24, 2012, 11:54 am
Charles, I've supported freedom of religion because, as an atheist, I hope to achieve freedom FROM religion, too. However, I fail to see how criticizing Islam is "scapegoating" anything or anyone. ("Scapegoat" means blaming someone or something for events of which they're innocent. This article is a fine example of TRUTH about Islam in Indonesia. Explain how commenting on it is "scapegoating" anyone.)

Islam is incompatible with democracy. It denies freedoms of thought, speech, artistic expression and religion of any type, other than Islam. It's a political system....NOT ''just'' a religion.

If you think you can "bring Muslims into the fold," I suggest you go to Saudi Arabia and take some bibles. How about building a church or two in Indonesia? You and I both know that "bringing Muslims into the fold" is an idea which will get you killed in any country in which Islam has a hold on the government.

My final solution is this....stand guard against Islam.. Speak out when it offends you. Spread the word about the true nature of the system to those who are misguided enough to consider it "just" a religion. Stand up for the millions of women who are abused and oppressed under its tenets and practices.

And finally, endure the abuse of those who accuse me of "Islamophobia," or " obsessive hatred" or "scapegoating" because they're interested more in being "politically correct" than in being honest or intellectually aware. Speaking against ignorance is hardly "obsessive." If a topic is here and I agree or disagree, I'll comment.

Unfortunately, Care2 provides a forum for those whose REAL interest seems to be promoting themselves as "holier than thou"....slamming those who disagree with Islam and its methods by using insults, lies, accusations, etc. These are often people who have never traveled and never seen an Islamic country. They've never read or studied Islam nor have they considered it with anything other than a ROSY view of the world, through the lens of their Western freedoms. They imagine that leaders of Islamic nations view the world in the same way that they do themselves.....BIG MISTAKE.

You want to know about Islam? Travel in Islamic countries. See how women are treated. See how animals are treated. Note the lack of personal freedoms. Imagine what would happen if France, Belgium and Holland were to fall into Islamic hands....think about the Louvre, the D'Orsay, etc, in the hands of those who believe great artistic treasures are "anti-Islamic." Imagine yourself speaking against these people...and staying alive....
 

Cousin It Addams (8)
Wednesday April 25, 2012, 2:26 pm
Kenneth,

do you know anything or do you just go around telling other people they don't know anything? cause you have yet to provide any documentation of your OPINION here, while the people you say are "know-it-alls" have time after time backed up what they say with articles.

your opinion is just your opinion. you've got a right to it. but we've got a right to disagree which honestly, your admission you know nothing about the topic means your opinion on said topic isn't worth spit. but again, feel free to cling desperately to your ignorance i guess it's all you got.
 

Brian M. (155)
Wednesday April 25, 2012, 2:31 pm
If heat were light, then we'd all be enlightened. If insults were dollars, then we'd all be rich. But, such is not the case. Why is it that pretending in magical beings brings out the worst in people?
 

patrica and edw jones (190)
Wednesday April 25, 2012, 5:38 pm
Indonesia is right on our door step and we, in Australia, should be bringing pressure to bear upon the Indonesian Government - like boycotting their goods and insisting upon sanctions against them, until they do something about these criminal acts. They have the power to stop these outrages and threats against Christians and their Churches. But you cannot trust Indonesia - they speak with forked tongue. Just look at what they did to West Papua and its people...........and the world looked on.
 

Vlasta M. (7)
Thursday April 26, 2012, 5:18 am
Obama cannot help it that he grew up as a Muslim boy in Indonesia (age 6-10) with his Marxist Muslim stepfather and therefore he extolls Islam and Koran, and bowing to Saudi Kin, while dissing Bible., Those childhood impressions are difficult to let go, even if he did read Koran and Hadith, which are promoting hatred of non-Muslims, apartheid, pedophilia, [polygamy, misogyny, and murder for Allahu Akbar. The terrorists of 9/11, Saudi citizens, did not shout Hail Mary, our Father, Shema Israel or OM, but Allahu Akbar, which had become a war cry of terrorism, including by American born and educated Muslims such as army psychiatrist, Nidal Hassan from Fort Hood who shouted Allahu Akbar, while murdering 13 of his colleagues. Islam ITSELF is incompatible with either US Constitution or with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and MUST REFORM if is wants to be recognize as RELIGION and not a supremacist ideology similar to supremacist Nazi ideology.

There had been an increase of violent Islamism. around the world, financed by Saudi and Iranian oil money, telling young Muslims taht they will get on the fast track to Paradise with 72 virgins if they die as "martyrs", i,e, while murdering Jews and Americans. Obama is helping CAIR and OIC to hide true nature of Islamic teachings and thus is endangering not only US soldiers and US but entire Western civilization. With large population increases in Muslim majority countries and corrupt governments, the Muslims are moving into Australia, Europe and North America where our politically correct bleeding hearts allow them to promote their supremacist oppressive ideology. ANYBODY who has a respect for human rights should not vote for 4 more years of appeasing to supremacist ideology, with its delusional Jew hatred, which in WWII led to Holocaust. Obama just gave $1.5 billions to Egypt, which is now run by Muslim Brotherhood Islamista who want to annihilate the ONLY democracy in the Middle East.
 

Vlasta M. (7)
Friday April 27, 2012, 4:41 am
When young 10-y old Barry Hussein Obama returned to Hawaii to live with his parents, while his mother and sister returned to Indonesia, Barry's grandfather hired a black man to serve as a role model, since Obama, Sr. abandoned him and went back to Kenya. This black man was Frank Marshall Davis, who was a member of the Hawaiian Communist party. ,This may explain Obams's "sharing the wealth" ideas, which in themselves are not necessarily bad, but when combined with intolerance of Communism and Islam, they form a very bad totalitarian ideology of "promoting good", rather then allowing freedom of choices.

Many such do-gooders, who start as idealists, end up as dictators who want to imposed their own vision of the world on others and thus defeating the very purpose of the original ideas for more humane and FREE society. Michelle Obama said how her husband want to change the world how it SHOULD be and not how it IS. That is a very dangerous concept that ends up in a tyranny of SHOULDS. I would rather have a mediocre president who does not have a vision that he wants to IMPOSE on Americans, but let everybody be free to chose their own road to happiness.

Islam to some extent also wants to impose its ideology as the "best" for everybody, but the vision of Islam is that of violence and not peace, of serfdom to Allah rather than choice of ethical behavior. Might makes right in Islamic sharia-run countries, and they hate the Jews for liking life rather then "eternal" life with 72 virgins, which promotes young man suicide/homicide to get on a fast track to this Paradise, as a better option than grim life in their corrupt countries on Earth..
 

Vlasta M. (7)
Friday April 27, 2012, 4:43 am
"live with his GRANDPARENTS not parents (his father was never in the picture).
 

pam w. (191)
Friday April 27, 2012, 8:23 am
Know what's interesting? Those of you who LEAP into any discussion of Islam to brand any criticism as "hate speech," are remarkably silent here....

http://www.care2.com/causes/do-arab-men-hate-women-mona-eltahawy-faces-firestorm.html#comment-3581795
 

Charles O. (209)
Friday April 27, 2012, 9:15 am
Hello Vlasta M. --

You condemn Islam because it offers a "vision ... of violence and not peace," and teaches that "might makes right". Your comment tells me that you are smart enough to understand that might does NOT make right. You understand that peace is better than violence. That's a start.

Do you regard war as a form of violence? If so, what is it when Obama escalates twice in Afghanistan? What is it when he supports the NATO attack on Libya, where a least 30,000 have now been killed? What is it when he uses drones to kill people in Yemen? What is it when Obama continues Bush's war in Iraq? What is it when he threatens to invade Syria and attack Iran with tactical nukes? Doesn't this belief in war-making tell us that Obama himself suffers from a "vision of violence and not peace"?

And what is it when Israel launches Operation Cast Lead and kills 1,300 people and even burns people alive? What is it when it bombs police stations and universities and clinics and even the U.N. headquarters? What is it when Israel launches "Peace for Galilee" and kills 18,000 in Lebanon? Doesn't that indicate a "vision .... of violence and not peace"? And what is it when Zionists argue that they have a right to do as they please in Palestine because they "won the war"? Isn't that an embrace of "Might makes right"?

Studies show that suicide-bombers are found mainly in countries under military occupation: When people have no other way to free themselves, they turn to suicide. Notice that there ARE NO Iranian suicide bombers. But that will change, if the war-makers succeed in leveling that country as they have leveled others. Then Iran too will become part of a vast breeding ground for terror.

. .

Which countries actually HAVE the might?

* Is it Iran, which spends $10B a year on the military, or the U.S., which runs a global military empire and spends $1,000 billion a year on the military?

* Is it Iran, which repudiates nukes has none, subscribes to the NNPT and calls for the Middle East to become a nuclear-FREE zone, or is it Israel, which has 200-400 nukes and rejects international inspection and the NNPT?

* Is it Iran, which hasn't made war in 300 years, or is it Israel, which keeps millions of people under military occupation and makes a new war every few years?
 

Charles O. (209)
Friday April 27, 2012, 9:24 am
We have managed to live with Muslims for 1,300 years, but now, suddenly, we see Muslims as the Supreme Threat.

And to eliminate this "Threat", we are preparing to start World War III and blow up the planet and kill billions of people and turn the planet into a radioactive hell.

And the worst part of it is that we are not supposed to ask WHY. We are not supposed to THINK about what we're doing or where we're heading. We're not supposed to question ourselves or
 

pam w. (191)
Friday April 27, 2012, 9:28 am
We have managed to live with Muslims for 1,300 years because they did NOT attempt to immigrate/reform Western society. In the past, they spread their philosophy by the SWORD...as they are commanded to do.

When all else fails, DENY, DENY, DENY. If you don't understand what's happening in Europe, Charles, I'm disappointed in you. It seems to me you're one of those people who views all this through the rosy lens of life in the US...."all will be well because EVERYBODY shares MY values of love, peace and inclusion."

NOT SO. Ask the Jews in 1937 Europe about that......
 

Charles O. (209)
Friday April 27, 2012, 9:52 am
We have managed to live with Muslims for 1,300 years, but now, suddenly, we see Muslims as the "Supreme Threat".

And to eliminate this "Threat", we are preparing to start World War III and blow up the planet and kill billions of people and turn the planet into a radioactive hell. And the more people we bomb and kill, the more enemies we have, so our faith in the primitive god of War creates a vicious downwards spiral for us and for everyone else.

And the worst part of it is that we are not supposed to ask WHY. We are not supposed to THINK about what we're doing or where we're heading. We're not supposed to question ourselves or the war-profiteers who tell the trillion-dollar lies that are used to stampede us into the abyss of war and madness.

We are not encouraged to be aware of the actions of our own government. Instead, we project all power and responsibility onto the people we seek to destroy. Then we can pretend that we had "No Choice" but to slaughter people wholesale. We were just "Reacting", just "Following Orders".

This rejection of SELF-awareness puts us in the position of lemmings. We march because Bush or Obama gives the order. We have no independent mind, no ability to question the suicidal orders we are given.

+( Theirs not to reason why // Theirs but to do and die, )+ -- Tennyson, "Charge of the Light Brigade"

+( There are none so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. )+ -- Goethe

. .

In the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s, the war profiteers used the "Soviet Threat" to extort trillions of dollars from the productive economy. Now that the Soviet Union is no more, the war-addicts have invented a new UnStoppable Superhuman Cosmic Threat: Islam!

The War industry tries to sell us Death and Destruction. But nobody wants to buy their product. So they repackage it as "Freedom! Democracy!". Now, everybody wants it! We can bomb other countries into "Freedom!". Then everyone will Love Us! Everyone will shower us with Rose Petals -- as soon as they finish burying the children killed by our bombs. And We'll All Live Happily Ever After, as the fairy tale says.

Apparently, we have many people who want to kill and die for freedom and become "Martyrs" or "Heros", but few who are brave enough to live for freedom and work for it, day by day.

Killing doesn't bring freedom! War is the worst tyranny there could ever possibly be. But we Americans have been conned into equating war with "Freedom!". No wonder we are in a tailspin!

The more we make war against other cultures and religions, the faster we LOSE our freedom and the faster we fall. Like other addictions, the war addiction leads straight to ruin -- straight to the gutter. We lose our sons and daughters -- who come back spiritually or physically maimed, if they come back at all. We lose our economy, as trillions of dollars go up in smoke. And we lose our world -- all because we do not have the courage to think for ourselves and question the insane orders we have been given and the lies we have been fed.

Just say "No!" to the war pushers and the war promoters! Stand firm against the insanity of war-making!
 

Charles O. (209)
Friday April 27, 2012, 10:32 am
pam w. answers:

> We have managed to live with Muslims for 1,300 years because they did NOT attempt to immigrate/reform Western society. In the past, they spread their philosophy by the SWORD...as they are commanded to do.

And why the sudden change, pam? How convenient that it occurred just after the fall of the Soviet Union, when the war racket was looking for a new "Threat" to use to extort billions from us.

In the past, WE were not attempting to bomb and "Liberate" and "Reform" the Middle East. In the past, we spread our philosophy by EXAMPLE, as our founders commanded us to do. As a result, we Americans were loved throughout the Middle East.

> Prior to [the 1947] period, the United States had been viewed very favorably in the Arab world. As a result of extensive private American educational, philanthropic, and missionary activities and the absence of American imperial involvement, most Arabs perceived the United States to be a champion of self-determination, human rights, and democratic freedoms.

-- Cheryl A. Rubenberg, Israel And The American National Interest, p. 27

When we make war, we create refugees. Many of those refugees end up in Europe. They are bitter because they have seen their relatives and friends killed by our bombs and missiles. They have very little desire to assimilate into a society that supports the military destruction of their countries of origin.

When you make war, you lose the moral high-ground. And when you lose that, the people who are victimized by your war-making lose all respect for you.

To win back that respect, you must show that you stand for something besides war and hatred. Join in an inter-faith dialogue. Air your grievances and show Muslims that you are not their mortal enemy.

I have no illusions about this. Suspicion and animosity is not going to evaporate overnight. But over time, goodwill does have an effect. There was a time when French and German people were trained to see one another in the same way that you see Muslims, yet today the French and the Germans are on friendly terms. You can have peace, if you WANT it and work for it -- by renouncing ideologies that pit religion against religion and race against race.
 

Cousin It Addams (8)
Friday April 27, 2012, 2:21 pm
vlasta,

quoting you: "I would rather have a mediocre president who does not have a vision that he wants to IMPOSE on Americans"

that's nice, but nobody runs for president unless they already have a pretty specific "vision that he wants to IMPOSE on Americans" in mind. that's the whole point of running for president, isn't it?
 

Cousin It Addams (8)
Friday April 27, 2012, 3:01 pm
charlie,

quoting you: "You can have peace, if you WANT it and work for it -- by renouncing ideologies that pit religion against religion and race against race."

then you're saying we should renounce islam, cause that's an ideology that pits religion vs religion (kill the unbelievers, jews are apes and pigs, and all the other delusions of uncle mo) and i guess the race card plays on this one too, cause, like, didn't they INVENT slavery of Africans? also uncle mo said blacks are inferior which offends me as a "race vs race" type of statement.

i forget who said something to you about always talking about bombing the crap out of the world, but that really is all you talk about and you then come off as defending an ideology that sees women as a sub-species and that also offends me that they do that.

i love the idea of not being at war with islam except they say they're at war with us (jihad is war). so unlike after pearl harbor when we didn't lay there and say "we are not at war with japan", now you want us to just get hoed by these guys? i guess they can kill and kill, kill other muslims, christians, hindus, jews, atheists, by the thousands and we should just take it? with all due respect i'm not their hoe so i'm not having it. sit in a little kumbaya circle with 'em if you wanna, but when these ones are holding your hands and singing with you don't complain afterwards when you realize they only did it so the other one could sneak up behind you to slit your throat.

yes i'll renounce their idealogy and fight it with WORDS. which if we can't do that (what with you always saying to shut up about it) after that what's left to fight with (if we can't talk) BUT guns and your bombs you're always on about?
 

Charles O. (209)
Friday April 27, 2012, 3:42 pm
Hello Cousin It A. --

If Islam is impelling you to hate other religions and races, then, by all means, renounce it. Renounce whatever it is that is causing you to seek out religious and ethnic strife.

"Jihad" means "struggle". The word "struggle" CAN mean war, but most often it means something more benign -- e.g., the struggle to improve one's character.

The Koran, as I understand it, calls for Muslims to retaliate when attacked. This is simply the right of self-defense. Is that a right you can accept?

Muslims regard Jews as kindred "people of the book". During the Inquisition, Muslim lands provided Jews with a refugee. As late as 1919, Arab leaders were welcoming Jews to Palestine and referring to Jews as "blood brothers". This is how Zionism rewards their generosity!

Jews were once spread throughout the Middle East and many had achieved influence and prosperity. That ethnic peace and cooperation ended when the Zionists took over. The idea that Jews and Arabs are mortal enemies bound to genocide each other is one of the sick notions that comes from European Zionism. If your mind is trapped inside this poisonous ideology, then you have my condolences.
 

Mary P. (157)
Sunday April 29, 2012, 4:29 am
Thank You Kenneth and Charles for trying to unblind the blind :) Unfortunately these poor souls(haters) are consumed with inner fear and hatred for islam/muslims and will eventually be destroyed by that very same hatred that has grown like cancer within them.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all of the Abrahamic Religions and ARE BROTHER AND SISTER Religions, whether you haters like it or not, and no matter how hard you haters try to demonize one of GOD'S Religions, you are only bluffing yourselves. You will NEVER succeed in their evil agenda of lies and nonsence and will be the only END Losers.

For the haters i say the following from the Holy Quran:-

"I worship not that which you worship,
"Nor will you worship that which I worship.
"And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping.
"Nor will you worship that which I worship.
"To you be your religion, and to me my religion (Islamic Monotheism)."
 

Mary P. (157)
Monday April 30, 2012, 12:11 am
Kenneth, "MOnica, NOBODY on this thread is an 'authority' on Islam. There are know-it-alls, that's it. So disabuse yourself of that idea.

You actually think you can try to use my profile against me. Pathetic.

YOU'RE the one spewing all the 'moral superiority' Monica, your post is full of it.

No wonder a single Muslim never comes on Rob and J's threads, well, I saw it once, and Rob and J. (and other little cronies like most on this thread) simply squash anything said by that Muslim, their belief, what they think about Islam, what they say about it, and it's THEIR religion, all stomped and squashed by peons who think they know it all about Islam and will tell everyone what to think about Islam, muslim and non-muslim alike.

As Charles said, the 'hate-freaks' NEVER offer any help, any solution, or something constructive in lieu of all their endless bashing, never anything with a view to improving anything. That reveals itself on this thread.

Amazing how some little hate-mongers feel justified in bashing a billion people of Islam, but don't like it when they're bashed. LOL "

Thanks Kenneth! I LOL with you! These 'sic' haters truly believe that they
can succeed with their evil agenda of hate, fear, lies and slander. They desire
to believe the intentionally Warped, Distorted and Misinterpreted Versions created
by the Zionist Regime (NWO) about Islam and the Quranic Verses!
 

Mary P. (157)
Monday April 30, 2012, 12:38 am
Shame on you Rob!! Don't you tire of spreading lies, hatred and making false accusations at people who you don't know from a bar of soap neither do you know anything about the Exquisite Religion of Islam
Except the intentionally Distortations and Misrepresentations created by Zionists (NWO) and
Other Islam Haters. Note: NOBODY is begging you to believe in Islam. Islam does NOT want haters like you and your hate club members and in addition you would be sinners (hatred) had you being a muslim!

Why would you want me to comment about anything Rob? You don't believe
Even what I have to say about my own religion, which I and billion other
Muslims know the Truth off! And Better than you or any of your 'hate club' members! You
Love to make assumptions, generalise ,slander and demonise an entire religion on the basis
Of the evil acts of 'some' followers who are 'muslims' by name only due to their
Inner evils.

Btw I as a devout muslim do NOT condemn ALL Jews for the Evil Acts of the Satanic Zionist
Entity neither do I condemn All Christians for the evil deeds of the priests ! I do condemn the evil
Acts of those muslim INDIVIDUALS who perpetrate such Evils! You need to be Educated in
'Correct Thinking' and not be a Bigot because of evil individuals and groups!
 

Tommy S. (11)
Monday April 30, 2012, 12:41 am
@Mary P
Quote...Unfortunately these poor souls(haters) are consumed with inner fear and hatred for islam/muslims and will eventually be destroyed by that very same hatred that has grown like cancer within them. ...Unquote


Oh yes sura 109 --- the sura of disavowal--- the declaration of innocence from "shirk" and complete disavowal
from the deeds of the idolators
IIt does not imply as you would have us believe - an acceptance of any other worship
This was a statement directed towards the Quraysh who had invited mohammed himself to worship their idols for a year and they
would (in turn) worship his God for a year.
and was in fact a Meccan sura which is abrogated by the verses of fighting
quote... The verses of fighting then abrogated this and the Prophet (pbuh) did fight them' ...Unquote

So you see all the hate is from yourself when you lie to advance islam (taqiyya) --- and you wonder why there is islamonausea.
islam cannot stand on its own two feet without threats and violence as witnessed throughout the world
Look in the mirror of your soul before you accuse others of HATE



 

Carola May (20)
Monday April 30, 2012, 1:11 am
Mary P, you are a pitiful woman. You sound like someone who is clinging tightly to something they really in their heart don't believe in. How can you and be a person of spirituality?

I always love this challenge from Dr. Ali Sina, a former Muslim, who has offered $50,000 to anyone who can prove the following statement (taken from Islam's own scriptures/history) is not true by using Islamic writings to do so. Oddly enough, no one has yet been able to do it. The reward remains unclaimed. Here's your chance. Prove this wrong:

“Muhammad is a narcissist, a pedophile, a mass murderer,

a terrorist, a misogynist, a lecher, a cult leader, a madman

a rapist, a torturer, an assassin and a looter."

From the website (one of many) of ex-Muslims who are trying to warn the world of the danger and truth of Islam: www.faithfreedom.org
 

Stan B. (124)
Monday April 30, 2012, 1:18 am
Mary P. You can fool some of the people some of the time.......................................................................................................................................................................
You aren't fooling me.
 

Carola May (20)
Monday April 30, 2012, 1:38 am
Mary, why have you gone off on your usual 'Zionist' hate rant when we are talking about Islam's intolerance that has led to the persecution of the Christians in this story, and by association, of all the non-Muslims who are being brutally persecuted all over the Muslim ruled world? Just trying to draw attention away from the truth? That is a standard tactic you Islamists use.

You actually state you don't hate all Jews. How very big of you. So, since you won't renounce the commands of hate that Rob and Jay have asked you to do, maybe you will renounce the commands of Islam to kill all Jews?

Here's just one small example of the many verses of hate toward Jews (and Christians and all non-Muslims) in the Qur'an and Hadith:

Bukhari:V4B52N177 "Allah's Apostle said, 'The Hour will not be established until you fight
with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say."O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."'"

For you to renounce these hatefilled verses in your scriptures would show your sincerity and your desire to reform Islam, strip it of its many hateful, violent teachings and bring it into the modern, scientific world. I look forward to your fervent renunciation of this hate, and the commands of killing Rob and Jay simply asked you to renounce too (how you or anyone could possibly brand Rob and Jay as 'haters' when they are fighting against the hate Islam preaches against them! It is quite a personal thing with them when a religion calls for them to be killed, don't you think? They aren't the ones who are preaching hate). So it's very simple. I renounce these teachings and commands of hate and killing. Now it is your turn:
 

John J. (0)
Monday April 30, 2012, 2:12 am
@ Mary P
Liar,Liar pants on fire
You said as evidence of peaceful co-existence
[109:2] I do not worship what you worship,
now.
[109:2] and you do not worship what I worship,
now.
[109:4] nor will I worship what you worship,
in the future.
[109:5] nor will you worship what I worship,
in the future
.
[109:6] (You have your religion and I have a religion) .
which meansYou have your choice ( ikhtiyār) for your religion and I have my choice for a religion . Then [this
verse] was abrogated by the verse of the sword [9:5]

and sura 9:5 (verse of the sword)states
Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye
find them, and take them (captive), an d besiege them, and prepare for them
each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due,
then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

@ Mary P -- May the God of Love and forgiveness reach out to you in your world of delusion
 

Mary P. (157)
Monday April 30, 2012, 2:55 am
LOL!! Same old hatemongers venting their inner hatred and fear as always! Have a field day venting, at least
Kenneth and Charles can have a little break from your hate! You now have
A muslim to attack! LOL!! Take out all your frustrations, anger and hatred
as long as you feel relieved after that 'release of hatred'! :) Please remove all that
Hatred and replace it with Love! That is what judaism, christianity and islam is all about.

All you who claim to be christians but spew out so much of hatred at your fellow human beings
you need to assess yourselves! Are you all 'true' followers of JESUS , Peace Be Upon Him!
If you think you are! Think again!

 

Mary P. (157)
Monday April 30, 2012, 3:09 am
Hate mongers, please know the ONLY people who will believe your lies and slanders of Islam are those who are
Gullible, afraid of their own shadows, and self 'superior' images of themselves! Billions of
people throughout the world, already know that the three Abrahamic Religions All follow on
similar teachings and they ALL are from GOD Almighty! You are just
wasting away your precious lives with this evil self imposed hatred in
your hearts!
 

Ge M. (217)
Monday April 30, 2012, 4:59 am
Mary P try finding quotes from your religious books that prove the love that Islam has for non-Muslims. And, apart from abusing me personally, is there anything here that you can disprove?

Mohammed had to convince people that Jesus was not the Son the God. If Jesus was the promised Messiah, there would have been no need for another prophet and no need for Mohammed because the prophecy would have been fulfilled.

Mohammed referred to Christians often and always with venom and hate.

This is just a few of the lines from the Quran that refer to Christians:

"Allah will tear Christians apart for ascribing partners to him."

"Allah will taunt the Christians in hell, saying: Where are all my partners that you used to believe in?"

"Allah cast fear into the hearts of the disbelieving People of the Scripture. Their home in the Hereafter will be the Fire."

Teaching Hatred of Christians and Jews in Muslim Schools in the U.K.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hBXHtQDxOo (From the BBC)

What if Mickey Mouse were Muslim?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWIFhKYiMqU&feature=player_embedded

The holiest book of Islam (61% of which is about non-Muslims) draws the sharpest of distinctions between Muslims (the best of people, 3:110) and non-believers (the worst of creatures, 98:6). Praise is lavished on the former while the latter is condemned with scorching generalization. Far from teaching universal love, the Quran incessantly preaches the inferiority of non-Muslims, even comparing them to vile animals and gloating over Allah's hatred of them and his dark plans for their eternal torture.

The Quran makes it clear that Islam is not about universal brotherhood, but about the brotherhood of believers:

The Believers are but a single Brotherhood (49:10)

Not all men are equal under Islam. Slaves and the handicapped are not equal to healthy free men, for example (16:75-76). The Quran introduces the “Law of Equality,” which establishes different levels of human value when considering certain matters, such as restitution for murder (2:178).

Neither are Muslim believers equal to non-Muslims:

Are those who know equal to those who know not? (39:09)

Is the blind equal to the one who sees" Or darkness equal to light? (13:16)

The Quran plainly tells Muslims that they are a favored race, while those of other religions are “perverted transgressors”:

Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book [Christians and Jews] had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors. (3:110)

Allah condemns non-Muslims to Hell based merely on their unbelief, while believers are rewarded with the finest earthly comforts in the hereafter, including never-ending food, wine and sex (56:12-40). In fact, much of the Quran is devoted to distinguishing Muslims from non-Muslims and impugning the latter.

The first sura of the Quran is an example of this. It is a short prayer that is repeated by devout Muslims each day and ends with these words:

Keep us on the right path. The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray. (1:6-7)


Muhammad was once asked if these words pertained to Jews and Christians. His response was, "Whom else?" (Bukhari 56:662).

Since Allah makes such a strong distinction between Muslims and those outside the faith, it is only natural that Muslims should incorporate disparate standards of treatment into their daily lives. The Quran tells Muslims to be compassionate with one another but ruthless to the infidel:

Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves… (48:29)

Allah intends for Muslims to triumph over unbelievers:

And never will Allah grant to the unbelievers a way to triumph over believers [Pickthall – “any way of success”] (4:141)

The only acceptable position of non-Muslims to Muslims is subjugation under Islamic rule:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (9:29 Jizya is the money that non-Muslims must pay to their Muslim overlords in a pure Islamic state.)

The Ayatollah Khomeini, who dedicated his entire life to studying Islam, said that non-Muslims rank somewhere between "feces" and the "sweat of a camel that has consumed impure food." Small wonder. The Quran dehumanizes non-Muslims, describing them as “animals” and beasts:

Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures. (98:6)

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe. (8:55)

Verse 7:176 compares unbelievers to "panting dogs" with regard to their idiocy and worthlessness. Verse 7:179 says they are like "cattle" only worse.

Verse 5:60 even says that Allah transformed Jews of the past into apes and pigs. This is echoed by verses 7:166 and 2:65.

A hadith (Bukhari 54:524) says that Muhammad believed rats to be "mutated Jews" (also confirmed by Sahih Muslim 7135 and 7136).

Verses 46:29-35 even say that unbelieving men are worse than the demons who believe in Muhammad.

According to Islamic law, non-Muslims may be owned as property by Muslims, but - in keeping with Islam's supremacist message - a fellow Muslim should never be (unless they convert to Islam after enslavement). Even Christians and Jews are not considered fully human in that the penalty for killing one of them is limited to one-third of the compensation due for unintentionally killing a Muslim.

Although nowhere does the Quran say that Allah loves those who don’t believe Muhammad, there are over 400 verses that describe the torment that he has prepared for people of other religions (or no religion):

And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers (3:85)

The relative worth of non-Muslims is that they are but fuel for the fire of Hell:

(As for) those who disbelieve, surely neither their wealth nor their children shall avail them in the least against Allah, and these it is who are the fuel of the fire (3:10 Shakir: "firewood of hell")

As they are fueling the fire, unbelievers will be tormented by Allah’s angels on his command:

“O ye who believe! Ward off from yourselves and your families a Fire whereof the fuel is men and stones, over which are set angels strong, severe, who resist not Allah in that which He commandeth them, but do that which they are commanded.” (66:6)

It doesn’t matter how many good deeds an unbeliever does, because they count for nothing with Allah:

The parable of those who reject their Lord is that their works are as ashes, on which the wind blows furiously on a tempestuous day: No power have they over aught that they have earned (14:18)

Shall we tell you of those who lose most in respect of their deeds? Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works? They are those who deny the Signs of their Lord and the fact of their having to meet Him (in the Hereafter): vain will be their works, nor shall We, on the Day of Judgment, give them any weight. That is their reward, Hell, because they rejected Faith, and took My Signs and My Messengers by way of jest. (18:103-106)

Muhammad told his people that anyone who rejects his claim to be a prophet will go to Hell:

Surely those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers and (those who) desire to make a distinction between Allah and His messengers and say: ‘We believe in some and disbelieve in others’, and desire to take a course between (this and) that. These it is that are truly unbelievers, and We have prepared for the unbelievers a disgraceful chastisement. And those who believe in Allah and His messengers and do not make a distinction between any of them-- Allah will grant them their rewards (4:150-152)

In Christianity, punishment in the hereafter is directly tied to sin and ‘wickedness.’ There is relatively little said about Hell, but the emphasis is on personal suffering for selfish or cruel deeds. In Islam, Hell is a punishment for merely not believing Muhammad’s personal claims about himself. In contrast to the Bible, every 12th verse of the Quran speaks of Hell and vividly describes Allah’s wrath on unbelievers:

But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads, Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning. (22:19-22)

No one could torture a person in this way without hating them intensely. Neither can Allah’s intense loathing for unbelievers help but affect the Muslim attitude toward those outside the faith.

The personal superiority of Muslims is confirmed by the contrasting picture painted in so many places in the Quran in which they are rewarded with the greatest of earthly comforts in heaven, while the unbelievers concurrently suffer horrible torment (see Sura 56 for just one example).

It would make no sense if Allah gave the people that he hates an opportunity to avoid his wrath. The Quran says that Allah deliberately puts obstacles in the way of unbelievers to keep them from accepting the truth:

If Allah wished, he could provide guidance to every soul:

If We had so willed, We could certainly have brought every soul its true guidance (32:13)

But, instead he sets a veil over the hearts and coverings over their ears:

Verily We have set veils over their hearts lest they should understand this, and over their ears, deafness, if thou callest them to guidance, even then will they never accept guidance. (18:57) – See also 17:46 & 45:23

Allah even uses chains and barriers to prevent unbelievers from believing:

Certainly the word has proved true of most of them, so they do not believe. Surely We have placed chains on their necks, and these reach up to their chins, so they have their heads raised aloft. And We have made before them a barrier and a barrier behind them, then We have covered them over so that they do not see. And it is alike to them whether you warn them or warn them not: they do not believe. (36:7-10)

For the same purpose, Allah also fills the hearts of unbelievers with doubt:

No soul can believe, except by the will of Allah, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand (10:100)

Not content with merely preventing unbelievers from knowing the truth (which is enough to condemn them to Hell) the Quran says that a hateful Allah also causes unbelievers to commit the very sin that he will later punish them for:

And if Allah please He would certainly make you a single nation, but He causes to err whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases; and most certainly you will be questioned as to what you did (16:93)

Although Satan tempts Muslims, it is Allah himself who causes unbelievers to err.

…and whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall not find a way for him. (4:143, see also 4:88 and 74:31)

Allah intentionally sends the people that he hates astray:

…and Allah sendeth him astray purposely, and sealeth up his hearing and his heart, and setteth on his sight a covering? Then who will lead him after Allah (hath condemned him)? Will ye not then heed? (45:23)

Allah even sends demons to inspire unbelievers to commit further bad deeds (that he can later hold against them):

See thou not that We have set the Evil Ones on against the unbelievers, to incite them with fury? (19:83)

According to verse 3:54, Allah plots and schemes against unbelievers using deceit (the literal meaning of makara, the word used). Elsewhere, the Quran explains that Allah tricks unbelievers into thinking that they are doing good deeds, when, in fact, they are merely deepening their own eternal punishment with bad deeds:

As to those who do not believe in the hereafter, We have surely made their deeds fair-seeming to them, but they blindly wander on. (27:4) See also 39:23, 6:39, 35:8, 13:27 & 14:4)

Allah recruits Satan to join Him into fooling unbelievers into thinking that they are doing good:

On the contrary their hearts became hardened, and Satan made their (sinful) acts seem alluring to them. (6:43)

The joke is on non-Muslims, of course, who will protest on Judgment Day that they did everything they thought was right – but are sent to Hell anyway:

Then would they offer submission (with the pretence), "We did no evil (knowingly)." (The angels will reply), "Nay, but verily Allah knows all that ye did; "So enter the gates of Hell, to dwell therein. (16:28-29)

Given that Allah hates non-Muslims to the extent that he would prevent them from knowing the truth, cause them to err and then condemn them to eternal torture for their unbelief and misdeeds, it would make little sense if he intended Muslims to treat unbelievers by the same standards that they treat each other here on earth.

The Quran says that no true Muslim would ever love anyone who resists Islam, even if it is a family member:

Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. (58:22)

There are at least nine places in the Quran where believers are warned not to befriend non-Muslims:

O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves? (4:144)

In fact, anyone who does take a non-Muslim as a friend could be accused of being an unbeliever as well:

O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. (5:51)

Note that Christians, according to the Quran, are included in the ranks of "unbelievers":


They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary (5:17)
Muhammad said that unbelievers have it out for Muslims. They may appear harmless or friendly, but, in reality, they harbor corruption and evil intentions:

O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse (3:118)

For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies (4:101)

As for them, they are but plotting a scheme (86:15)

Those outside of Islam are really helpers of evil against Allah:

The Misbeliever is a helper (of Evil), against his own Lord! (25:55)

The Quran says that "hostility and hate" will exist between Muslims and infidels "for ever" until the latter "believe in Allah alone." (60:4)

Instead of befriending non-Muslims, the Quran encourages hostility. Muslims are ordered to fight unbelievers:

O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty. (9:123)

The Quran tells Muslims that they will spend eternity laughing at unbelievers (83:34) and mocking their suffering as they are tortured in Hell:

And the dwellers of the garden will call out to the inmates of the fire: Surely we have found what our Lord promised us to be true; have you too found what your Lord promised to be true? They will say: Yes. Then a crier will cry out among them that the curse of Allah is on the unjust. (7:44) – Muhammad got an early start on this by personally mocking his dead enemies following the Battle of Badr (Ibn Ishaq 454)

One does not befriend those over whose suffering they will later rejoice, nor does it make any sense that Muslims would befriend those whom the Quran labels "enemies of Allah" by virtue of their unbelief.

Buddhists in Thailand, Jews in Israel, Christians in Indonesia, Hindus in India... Why is Islam at war with every major world religion, when none of these religions are at war with each other? Part of the reason is that the Quran is specific about the inferiority of other faiths (see 48:28) and the hatred that Allah harbors for their people.

Although it is common for Muslims to become upset about anyone “insulting” their religion, here is what the Quran says about Jews and Christians:

The Jews call Ezra a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! (9:30) (See also Bukhari 8:427), one of the last things Muhammad ever said on his deathbed was "May Allah curse the Jews and Christians.”)

The Quran specifically addresses Christians, Jews, Polytheists (Hindus) and atheists:

Christians are blasphemers (5:17, 5:73) who have invented a lie about Allah (10:68-69) by ascribing partners to Allah (ie. the Trinity). Inventing a lie about Allah is the worst of sins (7:37, 29:68) and for this reason Christians are condemned to Hell (10:70). Although one (early Medinan) verse seems to say that righteous Christians will go to heaven, this is abrogated by later verses that make it very clear that Christians must cease being Christian (ie. reject the Trinity) or suffer eternal torment for their beliefs (5:72-73).

Jews are also cursed by Allah (5:13), in one of his final pronouncements. The Quran goes on to assure Muslims that Jews are wicked (4:160-162) – so wicked, in fact, that they have somehow managed to do the impossible (18:27) and alter the word of Allah (2:75). Jews are “fond of lies” and “devour the forbidden” (5:42).

The Quran assures believers that Jews and Christians have “diseased hearts” (5:52). Allah even takes credit for the enmity between them (5:14). Only Jews and Christians who submit to Islamic subjugation and pay the Jizya are protected in this world (9:29 & Ibn Ishaq 956).

Hindus are polytheists. Although Muhammad didn’t know any Hindus (and neither did Allah, apparently) the Quran still manages to lay the groundwork for the 1000 year ethnic cleansing campaign against the Hindu people that is estimated to have taken tens of millions of innocent lives. In Islam, polytheists are worse than all other religion. Those who join idols (14:30) or false gods (11:14) to Allah also invent a lie about Him (29:17) and will burn in Hell. Even believing in other divine entities along with Allah is an unforgivable crime (4:48, 40:12).

Atheists believe in no god, which is even worse than believing in the wrong one (Muhammad and his successors had atheists put to death - Bukhari 84:57). Merely questioning the existence of Allah is a testament to one’s impiety (25:21), even as Muslim narcissim is encouraged in the Quran. Muhammad always answered probing questions merely by telling the inquiring party that they would go to Hell if they didn’t believe in him (36:49-64). The Quran discourages Muslims from intellectual inquiry (5:101-102).

Any Muslim who gives up his religion is a “perverted transgressor” (3:82). Perverted as well is anyone who denies Allah (40:63) or does not believe Muhammad (2:99). Freedom of conscience does not exist in Islam. Muhammad clearly prescribed the death penalty for apostates (Bukhari 52:260).

While contemporary Muslim apologists often speak of “dialogue” (meaning a unilateral arrangement in which they tell you about Islam while you listen) the Quran speaks of Jihad instead:

Listen not to the unbelievers, but strive (Jihad) against them with the utmost strenuousness. (25:52)

What would be the point in hearing anything a non-Muslim has to say... or even talking with them for that matter? Allah has already sealed their hearts and condemned them to Hell:

As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom (2:6)

For those wondering why Allah would even make infidels if their ultimate destination is Hell, Muhammad said that the purpose of some (Jews and Christians, at least) was to take the place of Muslims, so that they would not suffer there (Sahih Muslim 6666).

Allah himself fights against the unbelievers (9:30), so why should Muslims not fight in his cause rather than in the cause of evil (4:76)? About 19% of the Quran is devoted to the violent conquest and subjugation of non-Muslims:

Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies and others besides, whom ye may not know (8:60)


Strive hard (Jihad) against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed. (66:9, See also 9:73)

Muslims are to expect a reward in this life as well as the next (4:134), so it makes sense that unbelievers should be punished in this life as well:

…He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him there is no guide. For them is a penalty in the life of this world, but harder, truly, is the penalty of the Hereafter… (13:33-34)

There are at least two places in the Quran where the violent death of non-Muslims is referred to as Allah's reward for unbelief (2:191, 9:26), as in "such is the reward for unbelievers." Verse 3:56, bluntly states that "those who reject faith" will be "punished with terrible agony in this world" (a vow that Muhammad and his companions personally took it upon themselves to fulfill).

In the end, All beings on heaven and earth will be forced to bow down to Allah, either willingly or by force:

And unto Allah falleth prostrate whosoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly (13:15)

Those who resist Islam will be humiliated:

Those who resist Allah and His Messenger will be among those most humiliated. (58:20 - The context for this verse is the eviction of the Jewish tribes of Medina and the confiscation of their wealth, land, and children by Muhammad).

Non-Muslims are to be fought until religion is only for Allah:

And fight them until there is no more ftna (unbelief, worshipping others beside Allah), and religion is all for Allah… (8:39 – Some translate the word "fitna" as “persecution”, but in this context it means resistance to Islam – defined in the prior verse as an unwillingness to believe (see verse 38). This passage was “revealed” following a battle that Muhammad deliberately provoked. Verse 2:193 essentially says the same thing and was also “revealed” at a time when the Muslims were not under physical attack).

Those with "diseased hearts" - which include Christians and Jews according to 5:52 - are to be "seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter" (33:60-62) along with "hypocrites" (Muslims who are judged not to be true believers by their associations with unbelievers or their unwillingness to engage in Jihad).

Non-Muslims are to be encroached on, pressured and punished by the Muslims:

See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? (13:41 - See also 21:44)

We shall punish them gradually from directions they perceive not. (68:44)

And He made you heirs to their land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things. (33:27, See also Bukhari 53:392)

Allah will grant Muslims authority and power over all other people:

Allah has promised, to those among you who believe and work righteous deeds, that He will, of a surety, grant them in the land, inheritance (of power), as He granted it to those before them; that He will establish in authority their religion... (24:55)

(Muhammad's companions continued to self-fulfill this prophecy with an aggressive and senseless military expansion that left a trail of bodies from Spain to India).

Allah provides instructions to Muslims for dealing with unbelievers who are unwilling to accept Islamic rule:

Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger: If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment. (8:12-13)

Defeating non-Muslims should be easy for true believers because they are superior in intelligence and understanding:

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence (8:65)

Other verses of violence may be found here.

Remember that the Quran says that not all men are equal in Islam. This also applies to Muslims themselves with regard to their aggressiveness toward unbelievers. Those who kill or are killed on behalf of Islam are more pleasing to Allah:

Not equal are those of the believers who sit at home... and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and lives" (4:95)

 

Ge M. (217)
Monday April 30, 2012, 5:25 am
Lynn, in an ideal world there would be mutual respect for all religions as well as those who choose not to.

Unfortunately, this is not an ideal world and I have suffered anti-Semitism all of my life also all of my family. I now see my Christian friends sufferring and there are now people who are scared to go to church or who have bewseen suspended, sacked or suffered a disciplinary for having a cross.

Looking at the news across the world, Muslims have built on or taken over religious places converting them to mosques, expecially churches and the site of the Second Temple. The Muslims kill converts as well as ordinary Christians, look at the Coptic Christians in Egypt who have been murdered since the overthrow of Mubarak, the desecrations and that so many hyave fled the country to become refugees. In addition, many young Christian girls are raped until they convert and that includes other countries such as Pakistan where they are put into brothels. I can continue and talk about across the Middle East where one million Jews were made into refugees and there are now just 20,000 left in Iran and just one or two left in other countries. I can talk about Africa and Indonesia and the depredations into Europe.

I would add, before Mary P and her friends insult me, is that not all Muslims kill, rape and desecrate, many dislike what is being done. But it does not mean that this is not happening and is supported by far too many Muslims. Remember, that most of the countries where there are serious human rights abuses are Muslims controlled. Also remember that many Muslims suffer because of the abuses heaped onto them by other Muslims.

 

Tommy S. (11)
Monday April 30, 2012, 5:28 am
@ Mary P
You really are a silly ass--
quote...Billions of people throughout the world, already know that the three Abrahamic Religions All follow on
similar teachings ..Unquote
.Wrong- islam is not an Abrahamic faith, its doctrines have nothing in common with Judeo/Christian values and whilst it may sound great for dawa purposes, it is perpetuating a lie.
The doctrines of islam are filled with hate towards the Jew and the Christian and even more so for those not classified as "People of the book"
 

Alexa R. (333)
Monday April 30, 2012, 5:41 am
Tommy S: "Look in the mirror of your soul before you accuse others of HATE "

Well said Tommy!

Stan B: "You aren't fooling me."

Encore Stan!
 

pam w. (191)
Monday April 30, 2012, 6:47 am
Mary, I almost always ignore your proselytizing but. skimming through what you've read, I see a couple of things which are amusing.

The first is....as always....Rule #1 Deny, deny, deny. Deny that there is truth in an issue (I guess those Christians are just INVENTING the destruction of their churches and the persecution they receive?) Deny the hatreds oozing from your texts and deny the truth expressed in news reports of how Islam treats infidels...not to mention people who are supposedly believers.

Rule #2....Insult, insult, insult. Pull out every insult you can find...accuse people of HATRED when all they've really done is speak the truth. Slap the labels on those who merely seek information.....if you can't answer a question within the context because it's uncomfortable to admit a bad truth about Islam...insult the questioner!

I'm curious....if Islam is so "Exquisite," why is it that those who attempt to criticize it or leave it are at risk of being punished, tortured or even murdered?

The fact that "billions"of people "believe" in it means nothing, Mary! Every person on earth once believed that planet was flat and the sun revolved around us, etc. That doesn't make it true. Children believe in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, Easter bunny....etc. They believe it because they were TOLD to believe it! People will believe in gods and prayers and all sorts of unproven things because they're afraid of dying. We know that Islamic countries punish those who try to leave the "faith".....and we know that children are raised in the religion of their parents. It's no surprise that Islam counts large numbers of "members."

What do you make of the statistics proving that more Muslims are killed by their fellow Muslims than anyone else?

 

Ge M. (217)
Monday April 30, 2012, 6:48 am
Islam worships a false idol as Allah is a moon god and NOT the god of Abraham and Jesus. The difference is seen in that the G-d of both Abraham and Jesus talks about love and getting on with other people and Mo talks about sex, sexual perversions both for himself and then his followers, and hatred.
 

Mary P. (157)
Monday April 30, 2012, 7:09 am
Hate Mongers thank you for all your 'loving' comments! I leave you in the
'Good' company of each other; you all can get together and boil in your
'Stew of Hate'. Take care! :)
 

Mary P. (157)
Monday April 30, 2012, 7:25 am
Gillian, "Allah is a moon god " Lol! Lol! Lol! I had to say this one last thing to you. Your total 'IGNORANCE' of
Islam Precedes You!!! :) Have a great day!
 

Vlasta M. (7)
Monday April 30, 2012, 7:31 am
How many murders of civilians and destruction of churches will it take until Western world wakes uo to the fact that it is supremacist ideology of Hate of ISLAM ITSELF that fuels terrorism, wars and destruction around the world and NOTHING that the Western countries do or don't do, and certainly NOTHING to do with Israel and/or Jews? Islamic teachings promoted in Koran and Hadith and role model of Mohamed are incompatible with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Islam MUST REFORM or has NO PLACE in any civilized society which respects rights of individuals.

Mohamd was a pedophile polygamist (who married Aisha, one of his 1`2 wives when she was 6 and he was 51) and a murderer, responsible for a gruesome murder (by beheading) of 900 Jews from Medina who would not take his fantasies as word from their God. This vile man, who is taken as a role model by 1,400 MILLIONS of Muslims around the world would be in our societies treated as vile criminal that he was.
 

Vlasta M. (7)
Monday April 30, 2012, 7:37 am
Koran and Hadith ARE HATE MONGERS and not people who point out what Islam teaches its followers! Islam is INCOMPATIBLE with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and DEMANDS SUBMISSION. The events subsequent of 9/11 clearly indicate the Islam ITSELF is the ROOT CAUSE of terrorism and hatred of non-Muslims around the world and MUST REFORM.

We cannot continue playing kumbaya with those who chant "death to Jews, Death to America, Death to Europ) and who want to behead people just because we are Jews, Christians, gays, atheists or "witches", and pretend that all religions are equally good o0r bad. Read Koran and Hadith to understand where all this hatred to human riights values come from. Islam is a supremacist ideology similar to supremacist Nazi ideology and must be defeated by reason and love.
 

pam w. (191)
Monday April 30, 2012, 8:03 am
From Mary....who, by the way, ENTERED this discussion with insults....

"
Mary P. (156)
Monday April 30, 2012, 7:09 am
Hate Mongers thank you for all your 'loving' comments! I leave you in the
'Good' company of each other; you all can get together and boil in your
'Stew of Hate'. Take care! :)


Rule #2....When logic fails, INSULT, INSULT, INSULT!
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Monday April 30, 2012, 8:27 am
Pam W., you're such a continual liar. "Please note that neither Kenneth nor Charles has yet agreed that the demolition of these freedoms in Muslim countries is despicable. Note that neither of them has condemned the destruction of churches in Indonesia. Instead, they focus on other issues....as is typical of Islamofans."

You don't take responsibility for being an AMISH RELIGIOUS BIGOT, then you LIE which Charles immediately has to correct you on, which you ignore,, and I have to correct you on because I certainly said that I'm against ANY injustice or oppression by ANY religion, in instances where it occurs.

That crap of 'deny, deny' deny' and 'insult, insult, insult' has been used as a tactic to denounce anyone who doesn't believe the planet is run by alien reptiles to breakfast cereal. You're a parrot.

Anyone who practices hate sets a bad example for children, adolescents, and youth on the planet. Many non-muslim and muslim kids, as well as other religions, are great friends. That's before of course they get indoctrinated by adults. Now the proof of this is go find some children and teens and college kids who are muslim and non-muslim and have great friendships and respect and tell THEM what the 'truth' is about each other and their respective religions and beliefs. LOL!

And for the 5th or 6th time as Charles and I stated, no hate-monger ever has any constructive or helpful information or ideas regarding what to DO about anything to improve some condition on the planet.

That's been proven on this entire thread by Rob and J., Cousin It, Pam W., Gillian, Carola, and the like. Not a SINGLE WORD of how 7 billion people, including a billion Muslims, should get along better for the sake of humanity and the planet....just little blowhard self-important adults selling their chaos to anyone who will buy. Pathetic.





 

pam w. (191)
Monday April 30, 2012, 4:30 pm
When all else fails....INSULT, DENY and INSULT INSULT INSULT.
 

Nancy C. (798)
Monday April 30, 2012, 6:30 pm
Thank you Rob, Jay and Cal.
 

patrica and edw jones (190)
Monday April 30, 2012, 9:10 pm
People the world over, should be able to practice their religion in PEACE...........but Islam's ideology is totally against this. It's satanic CULT recognises no-one and nothing - if it is not ISLAMIC - and their 'peaceful' cult seeks World domination - and the eradication of all true religions EXCEPT Islam - which, as pointed out - is not a religion per se. It is just biased crap - encrypted in the Q'eeran.
 

Rob and Jay B. (121)
Tuesday May 1, 2012, 7:00 am
Note we're still waiting for the 'loving Muslim' Mary P to tell us all that she really is the wonderful, tolerant, caring, loving person Islam demands of its followers and to renounce the ugly commands of hate and killing in it. She has not, never has and never will renounce these hateful teachings of violence, intolerance and death because they ARE what islam really teaches and she believes them and Kenneth and Charles defend them. Just shows who the real haters are here.

Your comment Pam W is right on with these people who try to defend the hate of islam - never disprove anything anyone quotes from Islam's own scriptures of hate and violence, just call names and play the victim. Perfect description of every Islamist on here and their deluded dhimmi appeasers like Kenneth and Charles, neither of whom know anything about Islam but condemn those who oppose the hatred it teaches.

You can't argue with ignorance.

Mary P, we give you one more chance to show you are the loving person you claim to be and Islam is the loving religion you claim it is:
Renounce the commands to kill those who criticize Islam.
Renounce the commands to kill those who leave it.
Renounce the commands to kill gay people. It's such a simple question. Why can't you answer it?

Maybe we should ask Kenneth and Charles to do the same since they are so intent on defending this ideology of hate.

Don't hold your breath anyone.

Excellent, well sourced comments by so many here. No wonder Mary P is so angry - she can't in anyway refute all the Islamic hate quoted. Muslims are used to talking to people who know nothing about Islam and easily fall for the lies that it is the same as Judeo-Christian beliefs and is a religion of 'peace and tolerance', despite all evidence to the contrary. It is not.
 

holly masih (64)
Tuesday May 1, 2012, 3:32 pm
When you eliminate ignorance,you eliminate hatred and injustice.Everyone should have the right to worship as they wish,as long as they harm no one.
 
Or, log in with your
Facebook account:
Please add your comment: (plain text only please. Allowable HTML: <a>)

Track Comments: Notify me with a personal message when other people comment on this story


Loading Noted By...Please Wait

 

 
Content and comments expressed here are the opinions of Care2 users and not necessarily that of Care2.com or its affiliates.