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Iran: Alcohol Drinkers Sentenced to Death


Society & Culture  (tags: Iran, Islam, Sharia Law, Alcohol, death, freedoms, religion, politics, violence )

Rob and J
- 763 days ago - smh.com.au
Under Iranian sharia, certain crimes such as sodomy, rape, theft, fornication, apostasy and consumption of alcohol for the third time are considered to be ''claims of God'' and they therefore have mandatory death sentences. The 2 have been whipped 160x.



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Comments

Carola May (20)
Tuesday June 26, 2012, 11:15 pm
So much for 'the religion of peace and tolerance'!

And Muslim organisations are working round the clock to have this primitive, barbaric, tribal superstition - Sharia/Islamic Law recognised in western courts, which has already happened to an extent in several countries like the UK, Germany, and over 50 Sharia verdicts have been handed down in the US, and most of these degrade women and overrule their human rights, as Sharia law doesn't recongnise women's rights or their equality, among other offensive things.

Just watch, the Islamists and their apologists and appeasers will come on here to defend this most indefensible 'law', just like they always do.

When will these poor oppressed people in Iran gain their freedom from this ugly, cruel ideology? They're probably the only Muslim ruled country that is capable of true democracy and modern human rights rule, yet Obama and the West didn't lift a hand to help them when they were trying to throw off these tyrant Mullahs. Is it because this is the only place the Muslim Brotherhood, al qaeda and Saudi Arabia aren't at work trying to install Sharia governments, like in the so-called Arab Spring countries Obama has so enthusiastically supported, despite the results?
 

patrica and edw jones (190)
Wednesday June 27, 2012, 2:20 am
What is wrong with the odd tipple? When they are enslaved by such an ideology as Islam they probably need to get sozzled now and again.
 

Bernard Cronyn (31)
Wednesday June 27, 2012, 2:49 am
Iran must be a real fun place to live in. It will be interesting when Alex Salmond and the SNP and all their Muslim voter buddies in Glasgow impose Independence on Scotland. Sharia I guess will not be far behind and then those old gallows will be working night and day if the sounds and sights of Sauchiehall Street late on a Saturday are anything to go by.
 

Carol Dreeszen (364)
Wednesday June 27, 2012, 3:47 am
They are all just plain insane...it just does not end!!!
 

pam w. (191)
Wednesday June 27, 2012, 6:37 am
And just two days ago, someone posted here at Care2 that "Islam is perfect."

RIIIIIIGHT!
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday June 27, 2012, 7:14 am
More great news from the land of the free!
 

Gene Jacobson (247)
Wednesday June 27, 2012, 9:35 am
Hmm, shouldn't they be putting God on their hit list too? After all it is She who created alcohol in the first place, it didn't just come into being like, umm, water from wine or anything. The first accidental, or created, fermentation taught humanity what could be done naturally with some of God's creations - have these fools never seen film of drunken monkey or other creatures who happened upon naturally created alcohol? Probably not, I'd imagine tv a capital crime in Iran too, except for the mandate ramblings of their doddering old fools who run the country. What a travesty, the Iranian people are nothing like their leadership. But can't break free of the nazi's who work for the state as informers and "police". Ugly war-exporting nation the world could do without.
 

Paula M. (39)
Wednesday June 27, 2012, 10:53 am
Thank you for this reminder of what the Iranian state is like.
 

Joe R. (189)
Wednesday June 27, 2012, 11:11 am
Barbaric!
 

Kristen H. (25)
Thursday June 28, 2012, 5:24 am
wow. I guess that will be the next issue on the Republ-imams' political agenda... Scary as hell.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Thursday June 28, 2012, 8:13 pm
Carola May---"Just watch, the Islamists and their apologists and appeasers will come on here to defend this most indefensible 'law', just like they always do. "
Like the rest of your religious bigot 'friends' your statements show your religious bigotry. Anyone who doesn't hate a billion human beings like yourself and the rest of your attack dog clique is an 'islamist' an 'apologist' and an 'appeaser'..
You forgot 'islamophile', a word you used elsewhere that doesn't exist, but sounds sort of like 'pedophile' doesn't it. Anything is fuel for your fanaticism.

You also use endless sweeping generalities Carola, such as 'And Muslim organisations are working round the clock" Now how do you know that., let alone prove it.

I don't defend Sharia law, never have, never will. So don't include me in your hate-filled paranoia.

I also asked Rob and Jay elsewhere for proof of their personal attack on another person calling them a 'paid Islamist propagandist'. No reply, no proof.

They harangue someone else for not 'addressing' or answering questions but don't reply when it comes to themselves. Joke.



 

Marcillane Basso (18)
Friday June 29, 2012, 3:42 am
interesting point of view.
 

Carola May (20)
Friday June 29, 2012, 7:07 am
Kenneth L I'll respond to your inane ignorant comment just one more time since you seem to not be listening. I have never condemned all Muslims, but I do condemn their hateful ideology that commands killing people, like these. You always defend them though. Let's hear you condemn Islam's hate speech and commands to kill people.

Are you finally listening? I condemn hate, and Islam is one of the most hateful ideologies on earth. The people who profess that hate and refuse to renounce it, like you and Mary P and all the others, are the haters and I condemn you for your hate. You can defend it and ignore all those suffering under its oppressive, intolerant rule. Apparently Islam's victims mean nothing to you.

You don't seem to notice that your Islamist friends you hang around with never condemn or renounce Islam's commands to kill, but you don't call them haters, do you? Pretty warped. You rant against those who fight against hate and have a love-in with those who promote the ideology that preaches it. You must have a lot of friends with the argumentative, circular logic you are so wont to spout.

Why don't you condemn the hateful teachings? There are plenty of people who know a lot more than you do but you keep sticking your foot in your mouth and standing up for those who promote that hate, like your friend Mary P (who has never once said she rejects the killings she has been asked many times to renounce - never once - don't you get it? That's your hateful person). You are a hateful, uninformed person.

Rob and J are great humanitarians and fight against hate and tyranny. They don't attack all Muslims either. Why is this so difficult for you to understand. Do you have some sort of reading disability? Rob and J have some very personal reasons to hate this ideology that calls for them to be killed. I can't believe you'd take the side of those who want to kill them simply for existing! Trying to reason with you is like trying to reason with a 2 year old.
 

Beth S. (321)
Friday June 29, 2012, 7:51 am
Thanks for posting, R&J. Much of the world is very ignorant of utopian-sounding islamic republics. But they are totalitarian governments and lack checks and balances, so outrageous things like executing people for alcohol is gotten away with and nobody cares outside of a few people who see this situation coming our way, especially with the ascension of the Muslim Brotherhood and its powerful presence in most Western countries.

Too many people want to defend this crap because of a misplaced sense of undeserved and warped decency. time to wake up, and I thank you for sending out the alert, even when some people doggedly refuse to listen.
 

pam w. (191)
Friday June 29, 2012, 8:19 am
Well said, Carola!

Far too many people have a "politically correct" wish to stand up for the "underdog," never stopping to realize that particular dog would cheerfully bite them, given half a chance!

In all this time at Care2, I've never read ANYTHING which says "all Muslims are..." (anything.) But, if you can't defend the actions of this "perfect" faith, you MUST attack those who criticize it....never bothering to realize they just MIGHT have good reasons.

Rob and Jay are kind, intelligent and well-educated people who deserve their right to stand up against a so-called "religion" which arbitrarily demands their deaths....for the simple act of loving one another. That "religion" would also kill me, as an atheist/liberal woman who believes she has the right to enjoy sexual relationships outside marriage.

I'll stand with them.
 

Vlasta M. (7)
Friday June 29, 2012, 8:25 am
That is one way of "family planning", by stnoing, hanging and beheading people ;-)!
 

monica r. (41)
Friday June 29, 2012, 8:43 am
I think that this crap ideology can't take over, and then I hear people like Kenny here, who has admitted he knows little of Islam and has not even read the quran, but he seems to be in favor of executing people for having a few drinks.

Since the execution is mandatory under shari'a, and the article states NON-muslims are allowed to have alcohol, Kenny dear, did you notice the people being executed just for drinking alcohol are MUSLIM. So the people opposing this are standing up for MUSLIMS and you are standing up for the ideology that says to kill the MUSLIMS in this case.

Pay attention, will ya? You sound pretty heartless for defending ISLAM over individual LIVES of MUSLIM PEOPLE who have hopes, dreams, families, etc. They don't deserve to die for this. Little kids who stole don't deserve their arm crushed either, but that's shari'a. Inform yourself before blindly defending something indefensible.
 

pam w. (191)
Friday June 29, 2012, 9:09 am
So the people opposing this are standing up for MUSLIMS and you are standing up for the ideology that says to kill the MUSLIMS in this case.

+++++++++++ EXACTLY! Thanks, monica!

I've come to realize that many anti-social, sick people just enjoy taking an "anti-" position and verbally duelling with others (call it TROLLISH behavior) and so they'll adopt a "cause" such as "Islam is perfect and if you disagree, you must be a HATER."

There's no other reason to defend these horrible actions.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Friday June 29, 2012, 9:38 am
Carola May you are full of FALSE statements. I don't 'always defend them (who is 'them' by the way? Another generality of yours).. TOTALLY FALSE. I have never condoned injustice or violent acts. I never would, never have, never will. TOTAL LIE.
"The people who profess that hate and refuse to renounce it like you..." TOTALLY FALSE. I don't 'profess' any hate done by Muslims nor do I 'refuse to renounce it". TOTAL LIE
YOU LIE CONTINUOUSLY and make continuous false statements and sweeping generalities as if they are true but they are not.

And another generality of yours "I have never condemned all Muslims...but I condemn their hateful ideology (Islam)." "And Islam is one of the most hateful idologies on earth" Yet Islam is the faith of every single Muslim. You are at such a level of hatred that you contradict yourself.

And while I'm at it, just what specifically would be the Muslims that you don't hate, who are they? where they are? Now it's your turn to say where all these particular Muslims are that 'you don't hate'. Speak freely as I for one would like to know which muslims you're talking about. And not just another generality.

."You don't seem to notice that your Islamist friends you hang around with never condemn or renounce Islam's commands to kill..." What 'Islamist friends that I hang around with"? FALSE. LIE. I don't hang around with any muslims. MANUFACTURED PARANOIAC IDEAS OF YOURS.

" have a love-in with those who promote the ideology that preaches it." You're out of your loony-bin tree. Do you actually think like this? You're nuts as I have said before.

I'm still waiting for Rob and Jay's proof of their personal attack at Mary P. that she is a 'paid Islamist propaganist'. I'M BEGINNING TO SUSPECT THERE IS NO PROOF. IN OTHER WORDS, FALSE AND A LIE.

Carola: NOW I'LL STATE WHAT YOU HAVE CALLED ME BECAUSE I REFUSE TO VILIFY AND HATE MUSLIMS TO THE DEGREE OR EXTENT YOU DO----'defender of Nazi'sim' 'anti-gay' 'anti-women' 'defender of Islam' 'islamophile' 'hateful' and literally dozens of other names.

Another FACT: NOT A SINGLE PERSON ALIVE HAS TO ADDRESS YOUR DEMANDS OR ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS OR EXPLAIN THEIR BELIEFS OR IDEAS TO YOU. Because who are you? Nobody compared to anyone else. Same with Rob and Jay. Same with anyone. Nobody 'owes' you any sweat off their feet of any explanation for what they believe.


 

Kerrie G. (135)
Friday June 29, 2012, 10:05 am
Noted, thanks.
 

Carola May (20)
Friday June 29, 2012, 11:05 am
Kenneth, and who owes you any 'sweat off their feet? You condemn all of us who oppose the hate of Islam then claim you don't support said hate. But you sure hate all who oppose this hate. Do you ever listen to yourself?

I hope Rob and J ignore your demands. They don't owe you anything. If you want to know something so much, then do some research and questioning for yourself like the rest of us have. You've already admitted you know nothing about Islam.

But, as far as your friend Mary P is concerned ask her yourself. She won't tell you, but she won't deny it. She was identified months ago as working for the Islamic Propaganda Centre in Duban, South Africa. She's paid to obfuscate, deny and try to throw everyone off the right trail. You'd think she'd be able to mount a better defence, wouldn't you? But there isn't one. You've been had.

Google 'dhimmi' and see how that fits you.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Friday June 29, 2012, 11:08 am
Oh, don't the rats come out of the woodwork (with apologies to rats) like a swarming pack of hyenas thinking they smell fresh meat. LOL!

Pam W. "they'll adopt a "cause" such as "Islam is perfect and if you disagree, you must be a HATER." TOTALLY FALSE. I have no such 'cause' nor do I think 'Islam is perfect' TOTAL LIE.

Pam W ".There's no other reason to defend these horrible actions." TOTALLY FALSE. TOTAL LIE. I don't defend any violence or injustice, never have, never will.

Pam you still haven't addressed your religious bigotry attacks on me that I'm some 'warrior for Christ' (which I'm not) or that I'm Amish (which I'm not). Why, because your'e a religious bigot.
And with your statement "an atheist/liberal woman who believes she has the right to enjoy sexual relationships outside marriage" I wonder if that has anything to do with your paranoia that a billion muslims (oh, that's right, somewhat less that a billion muslims ) are out to kill you? It doesn't matter to me what you do or don't do--- but it may be revealing there. I'll leave that to others to wonder about.

Also, Pam, since you 'don't hate all Muslims" how many would it be you don't hate? Like Carola May? Ten? A hundred? A few hundred? How many are you specifically talking about? Probably one tiny ass percentage compared to the one billion muslims on this planet who all have Islam as their faith. Speak freely.

Monica " has not even read the quran, but he seems to be in favor of executing people for having a few drinks". TWO FALSE STATEMENTS, TWO TOTAL LIES. Now here we have the effect of chaos and fear merchants on weak-minded individuals. I have read some of the Koran; and I am not in favor of executing people for a few drinks.

I have seen these 'ethical, wise, good, helpful' individuals in their attack dog clique INDOCTRINATE in the severest ways ANYONE who tried to disagree with these 'authoritarians' about Islam or muslims or anything good about their faith, no matter muslim or non-muslim alike, it's endless control of what someone else thinks or believes. THEY EVEN TELL MUSLIMS what they think!!!! Arrogant, know-it-all, 'experts' on that which they speak. They demand absolute agreement and subjugation to WHATEVER THEY THINK AND SAY. Not me. And no one else unless they choose too. They don't run anything, they don't control anything, they don't have to be agreed with, PERIOD.










.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Friday June 29, 2012, 11:11 am
You and Pam and Rob and Jay were the ones demanding your questions be addressed. Up yours. You can't handle the same crap turned around and shoved back down your throat.
And as I suspected, you have nothing but conjecture not proof regarding Mary P. You're a child.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Friday June 29, 2012, 11:18 am
Carola, you didn't say who all these Muslims that you don't hate are. Speak freely. Otherwise it's just one more generality of yours. You also never 'correct' me when I list all your false statements and lies. Come on, correct me.

Same with Pam W. Come on, correct my calling you out on your false statements and lies. And your religious bigotry.
 

Russell R. (87)
Friday June 29, 2012, 11:33 am
Some one is in big trouble for for this cartoon of the self-ordained prophet moham-mad
 

Donna B. (36)
Friday June 29, 2012, 12:50 pm
This is just insanity. But a real Nut Case runs the country so what else can we expect? I think I might have tried to STOP drinking if I had been these two people though. The sentence is NOT right though.
 

Henrik Thorsen (28)
Friday June 29, 2012, 1:35 pm
That's what you get when law and justice is based on the teachings of a 7th century warlord who heard voices and had an invisible friend.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Friday June 29, 2012, 1:59 pm
I'm still waiting for Rob and Jay to state their proof that Mary P. is a 'paid Islamist propagandist'.

I'm still waiting for Carola May and Pam W. to correct me on every FALSE STATEMENT AND LIE I had to sort through and list on this thread.

I'm still waiting for Carola May and Pam W. to speak freely, let it flow, about the Muslims that they don't hate, who are they, how many, and where are they.

And last but not least LET'S HEAR CAROLA MAY AND PAM W. TELL EVERYONE ANYTHING GOOD ABOUT ANY MUSLIMS. LET IT FLOW!

Meanwhile, let's see what this person said:

MAHATMA GANDHI

"I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.... I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the second volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life."

NOW GO AFTER GANDHI... FOR YOU ARE THE 'AUTHORITIES' ON THE SUBJECT. SQUASH HIM!
RIDICULE HIM. INSULT HIM. TELL HIM HOW WRONG HE IS. FORCE YOUR OPINIONS AND CONCLUSIONS ON HIM. 'ENLIGHTEN' HIM. INSULT HIM IF HE DOESN'T AGREE WITH EVERYTHING YOU SAY AND THINK. INSTRUCT HIM. TEACH HIM. FOR WHO THE HELL IS GHANDI COMPARED TO THE WISE, ALL-KNOWING ETHICAL ONES LIKE CAROLA MAY, PAM W., AND THE REST OF THE CLIQUE.

Doorknobs.
 

Pepe Pops (7)
Friday June 29, 2012, 3:02 pm
And the whole freaking world is watching the show and nobody does,anything about this?
This part I never got..
 

Mary P. (157)
Friday June 29, 2012, 3:28 pm
Carola may, " As far as Mary P is concerned ask her yourself. She won't tell you, but she won't deny it"

Sorry to disappoint you but i do not work for any propagation centres.

Carola," She was identified months ago as working for the Islamic Propaganda Centre in Duban, South Africa. She's paid to obfuscate, deny and try to throw everyone off the right trail."

OMG!!! you are one sic person! How dare you make unfounded accusations at me? Put your money where your mouth is and SHOW ME PROOF of my being employed by some propagation centre, receiving a salary!!

I have told you before and i will tell u again, when you and your hate friends talk ONLY LIES FALL OUT of your filthy mouths!
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Friday June 29, 2012, 3:38 pm
I think it is fairly clear that someone is getting paid (search; pay per bloggers) to spread propaganda but it is unlikely to be Mary. Perhaps Carola you would share your source for this interesting fantasy.

Mary will earn her reward from Allah (Azza wa Jall) on The Last Day inshallah (God willing) but as far as I am aware, there is no financial reward for promoting Islam here - but if you are prepared to sell your soul to the devil and spread lies about Islam you can probably scrape a living, although you would be far better off cleaning toilets or stacking supermarket shelves and retaining some dignity and self esteem.

If anyone can find an organisation that would pay me to tell the truth about Islam please send details and I will submit my CV immediately.
 

Mary P. (157)
Friday June 29, 2012, 4:08 pm
Kenneth,' I'm still waiting for Rob and Jay to state their proof that Mary P. is a 'paid Islamist propagandist'"

Thank you for demanding proof! I am sure you are aware that You will have to wait forever as Rob and Jay will NEVER be able to give you proof of their accusations as I DONT Work For Any PROPAGATION Centres! Lets see how he wrangles his way out of this one, since he claims to speak the truth; this is proof of how much of lies/false he and his hate club spreads! Truth always overcomes falsehood! All praise to GOD Almighty!

Btw haters, Why should I answer any of your questions? Do I owe you anything for my beliefs? How have I Harmed any of you that you make me now liable to answer all your ridiculous slanderous false accusations?

If you are trying to intimidate me please know that you do not scare me. I am a muslim and i love my beautiful religion of Islam. Your hearts are sealed, deaf, dumb and blind you walk this earth; that is why you blame a religion for the evil acts of its followers.
 

Mary P. (157)
Friday June 29, 2012, 4:19 pm
Lets see if they(haters) call these great non muslim personalities' Defenders of Islam' and all the other insults they hurl at anyone with a different view of islam/muslims, compared to them.

In the quotations below, Western writers have used the word Muhammadanism for Islam. The word Muhammadanism connotes worship of Muhammad, an absolutely unworthy statement for any learned man to use. Prophet Muhammad's mission was to propagate the worship of the One and Only God (in Arabic Allah), the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe. His mission was essentially the same as that of earlier Prophets of God. In the historical context, many such terminologies about Muhammad, Islam, and Muslims were borrowed from earlier European writings of the Eleventh to the Nineteenth century, a time when ignorance and prejudice prevailed. The quotations below attest to the facts.



Thomas Carlyle in 'Heroes and Hero Worship and the Heroic in History,' 1840

"The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammad) are disgraceful to ourselves only."
"A silent great soul, one of that who cannot but be earnest. He was to kindle the world, the world’s Maker had ordered so."




A. S. Tritton in 'Islam,' 1951

The picture of the Muslim soldier advancing with a sword in one hand and the Qur'an in the other is quite false.



De Lacy O'Leary in 'Islam at the Crossroads,' London, 1923.

History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated.



Gibbon in 'The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' 1823

The good sense of Muhammad despised the pomp of royalty. The Apostle of God submitted to the menial offices of the family; he kindled the fire; swept the floor; milked the ewes; and mended with his own hands his shoes and garments. Disdaining the penance and merit of a hermit, he observed without effort of vanity the abstemious diet of an Arab.



Edward Gibbon and Simon Oakley in ‘History of the Saracen Empire,’ London, 1870

"The greatest success of Mohammad’s life was effected by sheer moral force."
“It is not the propagation but the permanency of his religion that deserves our wonder, the same pure and perfect impression which he engraved at Mecca and Medina is preserved after the revolutions of twelve centuries by the Indian, the African and the Turkish proselytes of the Koran....The Mahometans have uniformly withstood the temptation of reducing the object of their faith and devotion to a level with the senses and imagination of man. ‘I believe in One God and Mahomet the Apostle of God’ is the simple and invariable profession of Islam. The intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any visible idol; the honors of the prophet have never transgressed the measure of human virtue, and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion.”




Reverend Bosworth Smith in 'Muhammad and Muhammadanism,' London, 1874.

"Head of the State as well as the Church, he was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without the Pope's pretensions, and Caesar without the legions of Caesar, without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a police force, without a fixed revenue. If ever a man ruled by a right divine, it was Muhammad, for he had all the powers without their supports. He cared not for the dressings of power. The simplicity of his private life was in keeping with his public life."
"In Mohammadanism every thing is different here. Instead of the shadowy and the mysterious, we have history....We know of the external history of Muhammad....while for his internal history after his mission had been proclaimed, we have a book absolutely unique in its origin, in its preservation....on the Substantial authority of which no one has ever been able to cast a serious doubt."




Edward Montet, 'La Propagande Chretienne et ses Adversaries Musulmans,' Paris 1890. (Also in T.W. Arnold in 'The Preaching of Islam,' London 1913.)

"Islam is a religion that is essentially rationalistic in the widest sense of this term considered etymologically and historically....the teachings of the Prophet, the Qur'an has invariably kept its place as the fundamental starting point, and the dogma of unity of God has always been proclaimed therein with a grandeur a majesty, an invariable purity and with a note of sure conviction, which it is hard to find surpassed outside the pale of Islam....A creed so precise, so stripped of all theological complexities and consequently so accessible to the ordinary understanding might be expected to possess and does indeed possess a marvelous power of winning its way into the consciences of men."



Alphonse de LaMartaine in 'Historie de la Turquie,' Paris, 1854.

"Never has a man set for himself, voluntarily or involuntarily, a more sublime aim, since this aim was superhuman; to subvert superstitions which had been imposed between man and his Creator, to render God unto man and man unto God; to restore the rational and sacred idea of divinity amidst the chaos of the material and disfigured gods of idolatry, then existing. Never has a man undertaken a work so far beyond human power with so feeble means, for he (Muhammad) had in the conception as well as in the execution of such a great design, no other instrument than himself and no other aid except a handful of men living in a corner of the desert. Finally, never has a man accomplished such a huge and lasting revolution in the world, because in less than two centuries after its appearance, Islam, in faith and in arms, reigned over the whole of Arabia, and conquered, in God's name, Persia Khorasan, Transoxania, Western India, Syria, Egypt, Abyssinia, all the known continent of Northern Africa, numerous islands of the Mediterranean Sea, Spain, and part of Gaul.
"If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astonishing results are the three criteria of a human genius, who could dare compare any great man in history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws, and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples, dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and the souls.

"On the basis of a Book, every letter which has become law, he created a spiritual nationality which blend together peoples of every tongue and race. He has left the indelible characteristic of this Muslim nationality the hatred of false gods and the passion for the One and Immaterial God. This avenging patriotism against the profanation of Heaven formed the virtue of the followers of Muhammad; the conquest of one-third the earth to the dogma was his miracle; or rather it was not the miracle of man but that of reason.

"The idea of the unity of God, proclaimed amidst the exhaustion of the fabulous theogonies, was in itself such a miracle that upon it's utterance from his lips it destroyed all the ancient temples of idols and set on fire one-third of the world. His life, his meditations, his heroic revelings against the superstitions of his country, and his boldness in defying the furies of idolatry, his firmness in enduring them for fifteen years in Mecca, his acceptance of the role of public scorn and almost of being a victim of his fellow countrymen... This dogma was twofold the unity of God and the immateriality of God: the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with words.

"Philosopher, Orator, Apostle, Legislator, Conqueror of Ideas, Restorer of Rational beliefs.... The founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"




Mahatma Gandhi, statement published in 'Young India,'1924.

I wanted to know the best of the life of one who holds today an undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.... I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet the scrupulous regard for pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the second volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of that great life.



Sir George Bernard Shaw in 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936.

"If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam."
“I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion for from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity."

"I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today.”




Michael Hart in 'The 100, A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons In History,' New York, 1978.

My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world’s most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the secular and religious level. ...It is probable that the relative influence of Muhammad on Islam has been larger than the combined influence of Jesus Christ and St. Paul on Christianity. ...It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single figure in human history.



Dr. William Draper in 'History of Intellectual Development of Europe'

Four years after the death of Justinian, A.D. 569, was born in Mecca, in Arabia, the man who, of all men, has exercised the greatest influence upon the human race... To be the religious head of many empires, to guide the daily life of one-third of the human race, may perhaps justify the title of a Messenger of God.



Arthur Glyn Leonard in 'Islam, Her Moral and Spiritual Values'

It was the genius of Muhammad, the spirit that he breathed into the Arabs through the soul of Islam that exalted them. That raised them out of the lethargy and low level of tribal stagnation up to the high watermark of national unity and empire. It was in the sublimity of Muhammad's deism, the simplicity, the sobriety and purity it inculcated the fidelity of its founder to his own tenets, that acted on their moral and intellectual fiber with all the magnetism of true inspiration.



Philip K. Hitti in 'History of the Arabs'

Within a brief span of mortal life, Muhammad called forth of unpromising material, a nation, never welded before; in a country that was hitherto but a geographical expression he established a religion which in vast areas suppressed Christianity and Judaism, and laid the basis of an empire that was soon to embrace within its far flung boundaries the fairest provinces the then civilized world.



Rodwell in the Preface to his translation of the Holy Qur'an

Mohammad's career is a wonderful instance of the force and life that resides in him who possesses an intense faith in God and in the unseen world. He will always be regarded as one of those who have had that influence over the faith, morals and whole earthly life of their fellow men, which none but a really great man ever did, or can exercise; and whose efforts to propagate a great verity will prosper.



W. Montgomery Watt in 'Muhammad at Mecca,' Oxford, 1953.

His readiness to undergo persecution for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as a leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement - all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems that it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad.... Thus, not merely must we credit Muhammad with essential honesty and integrity of purpose, if we are to understand him at all; if we are to correct the errors we have inherited from the past, we must not forget the conclusive proof is a much stricter requirement than a show of plausibility, and in a matter such as this only to be attained with difficulty.



D. G. Hogarth in 'Arabia'

Serious or trivial, his daily behavior has instituted a canon which millions observe this day with conscious memory. No one regarded by any section of the human race as Perfect Man has ever been imitated so minutely. The conduct of the founder of Christianity has not governed the ordinary life of his followers. Moreover, no founder of a religion has left on so solitary an eminence as the Muslim apostle.



Washington Irving 'Mahomet and His Successors'

He was sober and abstemious in his diet and a rigorous observer of fasts. He indulged in no magnificence of apparel, the ostentation of a petty mind; neither was his simplicity in dress affected but a result of real disregard for distinction from so trivial a source.
In his private dealings he was just. He treated friends and strangers, the rich and poor, the powerful and weak, with equity, and was beloved by the common people for the affability with which he received them, and listened to their complaints.

His military triumphs awakened no pride nor vain glory, as they would have done had they been effected for selfish purposes. In the time of his greatest power he maintained the same simplicity of manners and appearance as in the days of his adversity. So far from affecting a regal state, he was displeased if, on entering a room, any unusual testimonials of respect were shown to him. If he aimed at a universal dominion, it was the dominion of faith; as to the temporal rule which grew up in his hands, as he used it without ostentation, so he took no step to perpetuate it in his family.




James Michener in ‘Islam: The Misunderstood Religion,’ Reader’s Digest, May 1955, pp. 68-70.

"No other religion in history spread so rapidly as Islam. The West has widely believed that this surge of religion was made possible by the sword. But no modern scholar accepts this idea, and the Qur’an is explicit in the support of the freedom of conscience."
“Like almost every major prophet before him, Muhammad fought shy of serving as the transmitter of God’s word sensing his own inadequacy. But the Angel commanded ‘Read’. So far as we know, Muhammad was unable to read or write, but he began to dictate those inspired words which would soon revolutionize a large segment of the earth: "There is one God"."

“In all things Muhammad was profoundly practical. When his beloved son Ibrahim died, an eclipse occurred and rumors of God 's personal condolence quickly arose. Whereupon Muhammad is said to have announced, ‘An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to attribute such things to the death or birth of a human being'."

“At Muhammad's own death an attempt was made to deify him, but the man who was to become his administrative successor killed the hysteria with one of the noblest speeches in religious history: ‘If there are any among you who worshiped Muhammad, he is dead. But if it is God you Worshiped, He lives for ever'.”




Lawrence E. Browne in ‘The Prospects of Islam,’ 1944

Incidentally these well-established facts dispose of the idea so widely fostered in Christian writings that the Muslims, wherever they went, forced people to accept Islam at the point of the sword.



K. S. Ramakrishna Rao in 'Mohammed: The Prophet of Islam,' 1989

My problem to write this monograph is easier, because we are not generally fed now on that (distorted) kind of history and much time need not be spent on pointing out our misrepresentations of Islam. The theory of Islam and sword, for instance, is not heard now in any quarter worth the name. The principle of Islam that “there is no compulsion in religion” is well known.



In the quotations below, Western writers have used the word Muhammadanism for Islam. The word Muhammadanism connotes worship of Muhammad, an absolutely unworthy statement for any learned man to use. Prophet Muhammad's mission was to propagate the worship of the One and Only God (in Arabic Allah), the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe. His mission was essentially the same as that of earlier Prophets of God. In the historical context, many such terminologies about Muhammad, Islam, and Muslims were borrowed from earlier European writings of the Eleventh to the Nineteenth century, a time when ignorance and prejudice prevailed. The quotations below attest to the facts.



Thomas Carlyle in 'Heroes and Hero Worship and the Heroic in History,' 1840

"The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammad) are disgraceful to ourselves only."
"A silent great soul, one of that who cannot but be earnest. He was to kindle the world, the world’s Maker had ordered so."




A. S. Tritton in 'Islam,' 1951

The picture of the Muslim soldier advancing with a sword in one hand and the Qur'an in the other is quite false.



De Lacy O'Leary in 'Islam at the Crossroads,' London, 1923.

History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated.



Gibbon in 'The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' 1823

The good sense of Muhammad despised the pomp of royalty. The Apostle of God submitted to the menial offices of the family; he kindled the fire; swept the floor; milked the ewes; and mended with his own hands his shoes and garments. Disdaining the penance and merit of a hermit, he observed without effort of vanity the abstemious diet of an Arab.



Edward Gibbon and Simon Oakley in ‘History of the Saracen Empire,’ London, 1870

"The greatest success of Mohammad’s life was effected by sheer moral force."
“It is not the propagation but the permanency of his religion that deserves our wonder, the same pure and perfect impression which he engraved at Mecca and Medina is preserved after the revolutions of twelve centuries by the Indian, the African and the Turkish proselytes of the Koran....The Mahometans have uniformly withstood the temptation of reducing the object of their faith and devotion to a level with the senses and imagination of man. ‘I believe in One God and Mahomet the Apostle of God’ is the simple and invariable profession of Islam. The intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any visible idol; the honors of the prophet have never transgressed the measure of human virtue, and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion.”




Reverend Bosworth Smith in 'Muhammad and Muhammadanism,' London, 1874.

"Head of the State as well as the Church, he was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without the Pope's pretensions, and Caesar without the legions of Caesar, without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a police force, without a fixed revenue. If ever a man ruled by a right divine, it was Muhammad, for he had all the powers without their supports. He cared not for the dressings of power. The simplicity of his private life was in keeping with his public life."
"In Mohammadanism every thing is different here. Instead of the shadowy and the mysterious, we have history....We know of the external history of Muhammad....while for his internal history after his mission had been proclaimed, we have a book absolutely unique in its origin, in its preservation....on the Substantial authority of which no one has ever been able to cast a serious doubt."




Edward Montet, 'La Propagande Chretienne et ses Adversaries Musulmans,' Paris 1890. (Also in T.W. Arnold in 'The Preaching of Islam,' London 1913.)

"Islam is a religion that is essentially rationalistic in the widest sense of this term considered etymologically and historically....the teachings of the Prophet, the Qur'an has invariably kept its place as the fundamental starting point, and the dogma of unity of God has always been proclaimed therein with a grandeur a majesty, an invariable purity and with a note of sure conviction, which it is hard to find surpassed outside the pale of Islam....A creed so precise, so stripped of all theological complexities and consequently so accessible to the ordinary understanding might be expected to possess and does indeed possess a marvelous power of winning its way into the consciences of men."



Alphonse de LaMartaine in 'Historie de la Turquie,' Paris, 1854.

"Never has a man set for himself, voluntarily or involuntarily, a more sublime aim, since this aim was superhuman; to subvert superstitions which had been imposed between man and his Creator, to render God unto man and man unto God; to restore the rational and sacred idea of divinity amidst the chaos of the material and disfigured gods of idolatry, then existing. Never has a man undertaken a work so far beyond human power with so feeble means, for he (Muhammad) had in the conception as well as in the execution of such a great design, no other instrument than himself and no other aid except a handful of men living in a corner of the desert. Finally, never has a man accomplished such a huge and lasting revolution in the world, because in less than two centuries after its appearance, Islam, in faith and in arms, reigned over the whole of Arabia, and conquered, in God's name, Persia Khorasan, Transoxania, Western India, Syria, Egypt, Abyssinia, all the known continent of Northern Africa, numerous islands of the Mediterranean Sea, Spain, and part of Gaul.
"If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astonishing results are the three criteria of a human genius, who could dare compare any great man in history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws, and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples, dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and the souls.

"On the basis of a Book, every letter which has become law, he created a spiritual nationality which blend together peoples of every tongue and race. He has left the indelible characteristic of this Muslim nationality the hatred of false gods and the passion for the One and Immaterial God. This avenging patriotism against the profanation of Heaven formed the virtue of the followers of Muhammad; the conquest of one-third the earth to the dogma was his miracle; or rather it was not the miracle of man but that of reason.

"The idea of the unity of God, proclaimed amidst the exhaustion of the fabulous theogonies, was in itself such a miracle that upon it's utterance from his lips it destroyed all the ancient temples of idols and set on fire one-third of the world. His life, his meditations, his heroic revelings against the superstitions of his country, and his boldness in defying the furies of idolatry, his firmness in enduring them for fifteen years in Mecca, his acceptance of the role of public scorn and almost of being a victim of his fellow countrymen... This dogma was twofold the unity of God and the immateriality of God: the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with words.

"Philosopher, Orator, Apostle, Legislator, Conqueror of Ideas, Restorer of Rational beliefs.... The founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?"


Sir George Bernard Shaw in 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936.

"If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam."
“I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion for from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity."

"I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today.”




Michael Hart in 'The 100, A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons In History,' New York, 1978.

My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world’s most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the secular and religious level. ...It is probable that the relative influence of Muhammad on Islam has been larger than the combined influence of Jesus Christ and St. Paul on Christianity. ...It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single figure in human history.



Dr. William Draper in 'History of Intellectual Development of Europe'

Four years after the death of Justinian, A.D. 569, was born in Mecca, in Arabia, the man who, of all men, has exercised the greatest influence upon the human race... To be the religious head of many empires, to guide the daily life of one-third of the human race, may perhaps justify the title of a Messenger of God.



Arthur Glyn Leonard in 'Islam, Her Moral and Spiritual Values'

It was the genius of Muhammad, the spirit that he breathed into the Arabs through the soul of Islam that exalted them. That raised them out of the lethargy and low level of tribal stagnation up to the high watermark of national unity and empire. It was in the sublimity of Muhammad's deism, the simplicity, the sobriety and purity it inculcated the fidelity of its founder to his own tenets, that acted on their moral and intellectual fiber with all the magnetism of true inspiration.



Philip K. Hitti in 'History of the Arabs'

Within a brief span of mortal life, Muhammad called forth of unpromising material, a nation, never welded before; in a country that was hitherto but a geographical expression he established a religion which in vast areas suppressed Christianity and Judaism, and laid the basis of an empire that was soon to embrace within its far flung boundaries the fairest provinces the then civilized world.



Rodwell in the Preface to his translation of the Holy Qur'an

Mohammad's career is a wonderful instance of the force and life that resides in him who possesses an intense faith in God and in the unseen world. He will always be regarded as one of those who have had that influence over the faith, morals and whole earthly life of their fellow men, which none but a really great man ever did, or can exercise; and whose efforts to propagate a great verity will prosper.



W. Montgomery Watt in 'Muhammad at Mecca,' Oxford, 1953.

His readiness to undergo persecution for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as a leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement - all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems that it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad.... Thus, not merely must we credit Muhammad with essential honesty and integrity of purpose, if we are to understand him at all; if we are to correct the errors we have inherited from the past, we must not forget the conclusive proof is a much stricter requirement than a show of plausibility, and in a matter such as this only to be attained with difficulty.



D. G. Hogarth in 'Arabia'

Serious or trivial, his daily behavior has instituted a canon which millions observe this day with conscious memory. No one regarded by any section of the human race as Perfect Man has ever been imitated so minutely. The conduct of the founder of Christianity has not governed the ordinary life of his followers. Moreover, no founder of a religion has left on so solitary an eminence as the Muslim apostle.



Washington Irving 'Mahomet and His Successors'

He was sober and abstemious in his diet and a rigorous observer of fasts. He indulged in no magnificence of apparel, the ostentation of a petty mind; neither was his simplicity in dress affected but a result of real disregard for distinction from so trivial a source.
In his private dealings he was just. He treated friends and strangers, the rich and poor, the powerful and weak, with equity, and was beloved by the common people for the affability with which he received them, and listened to their complaints.

His military triumphs awakened no pride nor vain glory, as they would have done had they been effected for selfish purposes. In the time of his greatest power he maintained the same simplicity of manners and appearance as in the days of his adversity. So far from affecting a regal state, he was displeased if, on entering a room, any unusual testimonials of respect were shown to him. If he aimed at a universal dominion, it was the dominion of faith; as to the temporal rule which grew up in his hands, as he used it without ostentation, so he took no step to perpetuate it in his family.




James Michener in ‘Islam: The Misunderstood Religion,’ Reader’s Digest, May 1955, pp. 68-70.

"No other religion in history spread so rapidly as Islam. The West has widely believed that this surge of religion was made possible by the sword. But no modern scholar accepts this idea, and the Qur’an is explicit in the support of the freedom of conscience."
“Like almost every major prophet before him, Muhammad fought shy of serving as the transmitter of God’s word sensing his own inadequacy. But the Angel commanded ‘Read’. So far as we know, Muhammad was unable to read or write, but he began to dictate those inspired words which would soon revolutionize a large segment of the earth: "There is one God"."

“In all things Muhammad was profoundly practical. When his beloved son Ibrahim died, an eclipse occurred and rumors of God 's personal condolence quickly arose. Whereupon Muhammad is said to have announced, ‘An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to attribute such things to the death or birth of a human being'."

“At Muhammad's own death an attempt was made to deify him, but the man who was to become his administrative successor killed the hysteria with one of the noblest speeches in religious history: ‘If there are any among you who worshiped Muhammad, he is dead. But if it is God you Worshiped, He lives for ever'.”




Lawrence E. Browne in ‘The Prospects of Islam,’ 1944

Incidentally these well-established facts dispose of the idea so widely fostered in Christian writings that the Muslims, wherever they went, forced people to accept Islam at the point of the sword.



K. S. Ramakrishna Rao in 'Mohammed: The Prophet of Islam,' 1989

My problem to write this monograph is easier, because we are not generally fed now on that (distorted) kind of history and much time need not be spent on pointing out our misrepresentations of Islam. The theory of Islam and sword, for instance, is not heard now in any quarter worth the name. The principle of Islam that “there is no compulsion in religion” is well known.
 

monica r. (41)
Friday June 29, 2012, 5:50 pm
Mary, if it's cut-and-paste you so desire, cut-and-paste you shall have. You forgot a few though:

Correspondence from John Adams to Thomas Jefferson on July 16, 1814, reveals John Adams’ true feelings about Islam: Adams states that Mohammed is “a military fanatic” who “denies that laws were made for him; he arrogates everything to himself by force of arms.”

John Adams did indeed own a Quran — the copy he owned contained the following in the preface:
This book is a long conference of God, the angels, and Mahomet, which that false prophet very grossly invented; sometimes he introduceth God, who speaketh to him, and teacheth him his law, then an angel, among the prophets, and frequently maketh God to speak in the plural. … Thou wilt wonder that such absurdities have infected the best part of the world, and wilt avouch, that the knowledge of what is contained in this book, will render that law contemptible …

Here is what John Quincy Adams wrote about the Islamic prophet Mohammed:
In the seventh century of the Christian era, a wandering Arab of the lineage of Hagar, the Egyptian, combining the powers of transcendent genius, with the preternatural energy of a fanatic, and the fraudulent spirit of an impostor, proclaimed himself as a messenger from Heaven, and spread desolation and delusion over an extensive portion of the earth. Adopting from the sublime conception of the Mosaic law, the doctrine of one omnipotent God; he connected indissolubly with it, the audacious falsehood, that he was himself his prophet and apostle. Adopting from the new Revelation of Jesus, the faith and hope of immortal life, and of future retribution, he humbled it to the dust, by adapting all the rewards and sanctions of his religion to the gratification of the sexual passion. He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy; and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind. THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST: TO EXALT THE BRUTAL OVER THE SPIRITUAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE. [emphasis in the original]

John Quincy Adams also described the Quran in one of his essays as follows:
The precept of the koran is, perpetual war against all who deny, that Mahomet is the prophet of God. The vanquished may purchase their lives, by the payment of tribute; the victorious may be appeased by a false and delusive promise of peace; and the faithful follower of the prophet, may submit to the imperious necessities of defeat: but the command to propagate the Moslem creed by the sword is always obligatory, when it can be made effective. The commands of the prophet may be performed alike, by fraud, or by force.

In a March 23, 1790, letter to the editor of the Federal Gazette, Ben Franklin wrote:
Nor can the Plundering of Infidels be in that sacred Book [the Quran] forbidden, since it is well known from it, that God has given the World, and all that it contains, to his faithful Mussulmen, who are to enjoy it of Right as fast as they conquer it.

Like John Adams, Thomas Jefferson did own a Quran, one translated by George Sale. Here are some of Sale’s comments on the Quran, included by Sale in his introduction:
It is certainly one of the most convincing proofs that Mohammedism was no other than human invention, that it owed its progress and establishment almost entirely to the sword.

Ibn Khaldoun makes it clear that holy war is the duty of every Muslim. From his most famous work, Muqaddimah:
In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the (Muslim) mission and (the obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force.

Winston Churchill:
"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men."

Winston Churchill also said:
"Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen: all know how to die. But the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytising faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science - the science against which it had vainly struggled - the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome."

Will Gladstone - Prime Minister of Great Britian:
“Qur’an… an accursed book… So long as there is this book there will be no peace in the world.”

John Wesley:
“Ever since the religion of Islam appeared in the world, the espousers of it…have been as wolves and tigers to all other nations, rending and tearing all that fell into their merciless paws, and grinding them with their iron teeth; that numberless cities are razed from the foundation, and only their name remaining; that many countries, which were once as the garden of God, are now a desolate wilderness; and that so many once numerous and powerful nations are vanished from the earth! Such was, and is at this day, the rage, the fury, the revenge, of these destroyers of human kind.”

Bertrand Russel:
“Bolshevism combines the characteristics of the French Revolution with those of the rise of Islam…. Marx has taught that Communism is fatally predestined to come about; this produces a state of mind not unlike that of the early successors of Mahommet…. Among religions, Bolshevism is to be reckoned with Mohammedanism, rather than with Christianity and Buddhism. Christianity and Buddhism are primarily personal religions, with mystical doctrines and a love of contemplation. Mohammedanism and Bolshevism are practical, social, unspiritual, concerned to win the empire of this world.”

Fulton J. Sheen:
“Today [1950], the hatred of the Moslem countries against the West is becoming hatred against Christianity itself. Although the statesmen have not yet taken it into account, there is still grave danger that the temporal power of Islam may return and, with it, the menace that it may shake off a West which has ceased to be Christian, and affirm itself as a great anti-Christian world power.”

Edward Augustus Freeman:
”[Islam] is essentially an obstructive, intolerant system… It has consecrated despotism; it has consecrated polygamy; it has consecrated slavery. It has declared war against every other creed; it has claimed to be at least dominant in every land… When it ceases to have an enemy to contend against, it sinks into sluggish stupidity and into a barbarism far viler… It must have an enemy; if cut off…from conflict with the infidel, it finds its substitute in sectarian hatred of brother Moslems…”

Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologus 1391:
"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

Here's what Muslims themselves have to say.

Ayatollah Khomeini:
“Islam makes it incumbent on all adult males, provided they are not disabled and incapacitated, to prepare themselves for the conquest of [other] countries so that the writ of Islam is obeyed in every country in the world. But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world…. Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers]? Islam says: Kill them [the non-Muslims], put them to the sword and scatter [their armies]. Does this mean sitting back until [non-Muslims] overcome us? Islam says: Kill in the service of Allah those who may want to kill you! Does this mean that we should surrender to the enemy? Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other [Koranic] verses and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all that mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.”

Osama bin Laden:
“We should fully understand our religion. Fighting is a part of our religion and our Sharia [Islamic legal code]. Those who love God and his Prophet and this religion cannot deny that. Whoever denies even a minor tenet of our religion commits the gravest sin in Islam."
 

Halee M. (0)
Friday June 29, 2012, 5:56 pm
I don't know anywhere in the Quran where it states that one should be executed for drinking alcohol so I'll put it down to deep- rooted ignorance on the part of Iranian Sharia laws.
In Islam, cultural ignorance is so tightly entwined with religion that they cannot be separated even if they try.
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Friday June 29, 2012, 7:34 pm
I've no belief that drinking alcohol's wrong, only if my behavior's out of control should my behavior be called wrong. I've a hope they won't be executed since I recall Iran backing down before when other horrible sentences're publicized.

My liquor cabinet should be off-limits to government.
 

Gloria H. (88)
Friday June 29, 2012, 8:23 pm
final solution for alchoholism is fundamentalism.
 

Rob and Jay B. (122)
Friday June 29, 2012, 11:53 pm
Here's the 'beautiful religion of Islam':

Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 327: - “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”

Quran (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"

Quran (8:65) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Mohammed said: ''As for one who disbelieves, we
will fight him forever in Allah's Cause. Killing him is a small matter to
us." Tabari 9:69

Non-Muslims are "the most vile of created beings." 98:6

"War is ordained of Allah." 2:216

"...for the Prophet said, "If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him." Bukhari 4:52:260

"Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah." Mohammed, Ibn Ishaq 992

"O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends."Q5:51

"I have been made victorious with terror." Mohammed, Bukhari 4:52:220

Bukhari:V4B52N177 "Allah's Apostle said, 'The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say."O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."'
(There are more verses of hate toward Jews in the Muslim Trilogy than in 'Mein Kampf', which is still a best seller in many Islamic occupied lands, and 100,000 Balkan Muslims volunteered for the Nazi military to kill Jews)

There are some 109 verses of hate toward non-Muslims in the Qur'an alone and many more in the hadith.

This is 'beautiful'? Where is a loving god in all of this? 'Allah does not love the disbelievers' Q 30:45

There were probably many Nazis that would have described their ideology of hate as beautiful too. They too were going to conquer the world and make everyone live their warped ideas. Hitler loved Islam because of its warlike tenets.



 

Rob and Jay B. (122)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 12:04 am
Speaking of Mohammed, it is clear he wrote the Qur'an since he is the star of it all and is constantly praised by his Allah, the name of the Arab chief deity, the Moon God, despite his mass murders, pedophilia, banditry, adultery, rape, sex slaves, breaking treaties, violently forcing people to join his new 'religion' etc. No good god would ever praise such a man who ranks with all the other tyrants and brutes in world history.

This is from www.faithfreedom.org, one of the sites of ex-Muslims trying to warn others of the dangers of Islam. This is what they say about Mohammed:

'We ex-Muslims living with Islam's formal and informal death penalty for apostasy know for certain that Islam is an evil religion/ideology both in part and on the whole.
Here is a recent statement from a group of Bangladeshi apostates living in the UK explaining the reasons why they have abandoned Islam:
"One who claims to be a messenger of God is expected to live a saintly life. He must not be given to lust, he must not be a sexual pervert, and he must not be a rapist, a highway robber, a war criminal, a mass murderer or an assassin. One who claims to be a messenger of God must have a superior character. He must stand above the vices of the people of his time. Yet Muhammad’s life is that of a gangster godfather. He raided merchant caravans, looted innocent people, massacred entire male populations and enslaved the women and children. He raped the women captured in war after killing their husbands and told his followers that it is okay to have sex with their captives (Qur'an 33:50). He assassinated those who criticized him and executed them when he came to power and became de facto despot of Arabia. Muhammad was bereft of human compassion. He was an obsessed man with his dreams of grandiosity and could not forgive those who stood in his way...
The statement continues,

Muhammad was a narcissist, like Hitler, Saddam or Stalin. He was astute and knew how to manipulate people, but his emotional intelligence was less evolved than that of a 6-year-old child. He simply could not feel the pain of others. He brutally massacred thousands of innocent people and pillaged their wealth. His ambitions were big and as a narcissist he honestly believed he is entitled to do as he pleased and commit all sorts of crimes and his evil deeds are justified."'
FROM: www.faithfreedom.org ‘The Challenge’

The Challenge of Dr. Sina, ex-Muslim, to prove these statments false for a $50,000 reward still stands and has never been done. Interesting, huh?
 

Mary P. (157)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 12:34 am
Monica,
You forget the almost 2 billion muslims from every corner of the world; in every country, every race, every color, every culture and every Proffession, who chose to be Devoted Believers of Islam! Compare that figure
to the handful of haters like you, your friends and the ones you quote!

You haters are a pathetic, sic lot! Carry on spreading your lies and slanders; you
are helping promote Islam by making others SEARCH for the Truth of Islam, as no decent, moral
person will believe all the unbelievable rot you spread! For that I thank you all dearly! :) You can continue to brew in your own stew of hate and fear of fellow human beings!

Just make sure to check, when you go to bed at night, there isn't a muslim hiding under your bed! LOL!!
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 1:28 am
Rob and Jay, you're hate-mongers. Pure, unadeulterated. YOU SPREAD FEAR AND HATE.
You are the lowest of the low, YOU ACCUSE ANOTHER PERSON OF BEING A 'PAID ISLAMIST PROPAGANDIST', YOU HARANGUE THEM AND HARASS THEM TO ANSWER AND ADDRESS YOUR QUESTIONS, THE PERSON DOES, YOU'RE ASKED FOR PROOF AND ALL YOU CAN DO IS PITIFULLY CONTINUE YOUR HATE TIRADES.

NON-SEQUITUR. CHAOS AND FEAR MERCHANTS.

YOU'RE COWARDS!

YOU JUST CONTINUE ATTACKING AND SPREADING YOUR PERSONAL HATE AND FEAR.
You've got some huge crapola in your lives that has f....ed up your thought processes.

IGNORANT ARROGANT SELF-IMPORTANT SELF-PROCLAIMED 'AUTHORITIES' WHO PRESUME TO 'TEACH' OTHERS.

You are NOT WISE, NOT ETHICAL,

Your attack dog clique CONTINUALLY SPREADS LIES AND FALSE STATEMENTS ABOUT ME.

You have no ethics. You have no position from which to 'teach' anyone anything.

Nobody owes you the sweat off their pudenda.

I've watched Rob and Jay and their attack dog clique FORCE others to defend themselves, Charles O., myself, Mary P. Abu, ANYONE WHO YOU CHOOSE TO PISS ON. WHO THE F....K ARE YOU? NOBODY!







 

Carola May (20)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 1:31 am
Monica, you missed some good quotes on Mohammed, whose veneration by Orthodox Muslims is all but worship:

Alexis de Toqueville, French Author/Thinker (cited Spencer 2005, pg 25) "I studied the Qur'an in great detail. I came away from that study with the conviction that by and large there have been few religions in the world as deadly to men as that of Muhammed. So far as I can see it is the principle cause of the decadence so visible today in the Muslim world."

FROM THE BOOK: " ISLAM DISMANTLED - THE MENTAL ILLNESS OF PROPHET MUHAMMED" BY Sujit Das, with foreword by Ali Sina :
_'Islam is an extremely defenseless religion and hence vulnerable to collapse. “Defenseless” in the sense, there is not a single atom of truth in it to support. This failed religion, originated from the grand delusion of a malignant Narcissist, is the biggest hoax humanity has ever seen. It is like a house of cards – looks tall, big, mighty and gigantic but the base is very weak. The day when criticism will have dismantled piece by piece this enormous falsehood of Islam, the whole edifice will come crumbling down. Then the Muslims will ask themselves how this enormous falsehood could have forced acceptance for such a long time. I can already see some cracks in this gigantic structure.'

Psychologist Carl Jung 1939: "We do not know whether Hitler is going to found a new Islam. He is already on the way; he is like Muhammad. The emotion in Germany is Islamic; warlike and Islamic. They are all drunk with wild god. That can be the historic future"

Here's what Mohammed claimed his was told, through an angel, that his deity said about him (no one can accuse him of humility, that's for sure!):

Qur'an 66:1 "O Prophet! Why forbid yourself that which Allah has made lawful to you? You seek to please your consorts. And Allah is Forgiving, Most Kind. Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows."

Ishaq:467 "Allah addressed the believers and said, 'In Allah's Apostle you have a fine example for anyone who hopes to be in the place where Allah is.'"

Qur'an 33:51 "You (Mohammed) may have whomever you desire; there is no blame." No one else can though


 

Rob and Jay B. (122)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 1:31 am
Mary P has ranted about how 'beautiful' Islam is and how kind and wonderful, but she refuses to renounce killings like this in this article, or the destruction of churches going on all over the Muslim occupied lands right now.

We've asked her many times over the months to renounce Mohammed's evil commands to murder those who criticize, question or leave Islam and gay people. She never has renounced one of the many ugly commands or verses of the Qur'an or hadith and she has never condemned any of the atrocities committed in the forced spread of Islam beginning with Mohammed's having 900 Jewish men and boys beheaded for not accepting him in Medina (while he sat and laughed and divided up their wealth and women).

She rants about those who DO condemn these evil killings and intolerance and calls them 'haters'! But who is the real hater - those who condemn hate, killing and intolerance as taught by Mohammed, or those who refuse to renounce these ugly teachings and acts of hate and violence?
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 1:46 am
ROB AND JAY YOU ARE COWARDS!



 

Kenneth L. (314)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 1:58 am
WHEN A HATE-MONGER AND COWARD IS CONFRONTED WITH THEIR LIES AND FALSE STATEMENTS THEY AVOID, NEGLECT, DODGE, FEINT, ANYTHING, TO ESCAPE BEING PINPOINTED.
 

Mary P. (157)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 2:41 am
Rob and Jay, and islam haters,

Have you ever heard of 'Patience is Virtue'? Your patience for answers will be 'rewarded' by
GOD Almighty, on the Day of Judgement, or even earlier on the day you die!!
 

Mary P. (157)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 2:51 am
In the meantime I leave you with something to really fear about, as its right at your
Doorstep!!

The Elite's Secret Covenant

?


An illusion it will be, so large, so vast it will escape their perception. Those who will see it will be thought of as insane.
We will create seperate fronts to prevent them from seeing the connection between us.
We will behave as if we are not connected to keep the illusion alive. Our goal will be accomplished one drop at a time so as to never bring suspicion upon ourselves. This will also prevent them from seeing the changes as they occur.
We will always stand above the relative field of their experience for we know the secrets of the absolute.We will work together always and will remain bound by blood and secrecy. Death will come to he who speaks.
We will keep their lifespan short and their minds weak while pretending to do the opposite.
We will use our knowledge of science and technology in subtle ways so they will never see what is happening.
We will use soft metals, ageing accelerators and sedatives in food and water, also in the air.
They will be blanketed by poisons everywhere they turn.
The soft metals will cause them to lose their minds. We will promise to find a cure from our many fronts, yet we will feed them more poison.
The poisons will be absorbed through their skin and mouths, they will destroy their minds and reproductive systems.
From all this, their children will be born dead, and we will conceal this information.
The poisons will be hidden in everything that surrounds them, in what they drink, eat, breathe and wear.
We must be ingenious in dispensing the poisons for they can see far.
We will teach them that the poisons are good, with fun images and musical tones.
Those they look up to will help. We will enlist them to push our poisons.
They will see our products being used in film and will grow accustomed to them and will never know their true effect.
When they give birth we will inject poisons into the blood of their children and convince them its for their help.
We will start early on, when their minds are young, we will target their children with what children love most, sweet things.
When their teeth decay we will fill them with metals that will kill their mind and steal their future.
When their abilty to learn has been affected, we will create medicine that will make them sicker and cause other diseases for which we will create yet more medicine.
We will render them docile and weak before us by our power. They will grow depressed, slow and obese, and when they come to us for help, we will give them more poison.
We will focus their attention toward money and material goods so they may never connect with their inner self. We will distract them with fornication, external pleasures and games so they may never be one with the oneness of it all.
Their minds will belong to us and they will do as we say. If they refuse we shall find ways to implement mind-altering technology into their lives. We will use fear as our weapon.
We will establish their goverments and establish opposites within. We will own both sides.
We will always hide our objective but carry out our plan.
They will perform labour for us and we shall prosper from their toil.
Our families will never mix with theirs. Our blood must be pure always, for it is the way.
We will make them kill each other when it suits us. We will keep them seperated from the oneness by dogma and religion.
We will control all aspects of their lives and tell them what to think and how.
We will guide them kindly and gently letting them think they are guiding themselves.
We will forment animosity between them through our factions.
When a light shall shine amongst them, we shall extinguish it by ridicule, or death, whichever suits us best.
We will make them rip each other's hearts apart and kill their own children.
We will accomplish this by using hate as our ally, anger as our friend. The hate will blind them totally, and never shall they see that from their conflicts we emerge as their rulers. They will be busy killing each other.
They will bathe in their own blood and kill their neighbours for as long as we see fit. We will benefit greatly from this, for they will not see us, for they cannot see us.
We will continue to prosper from their wars and their deaths.
We shall repeat this over and over until our ultimate goal is accomplished.
We shall continue to make them live in fear and anger through images and sounds.
We will use all the tools we have to accomplish this. The tools will be provided by their labour.
We will make them hate themselves and their neighbours.
We will always hide the divine truth from them, that we are all one. This they must never know.
They must never know that colour is an illusion, they must always think they are not equal.
Drop by drop, drop by drop we will advance our goal. We will take over their land, resources and wealth to exercise total control over them.
We will deceive them into accepting laws that will steal the little freedom they will have.
We will establish a money system that will imprison them forever, keeping them and their children in debt.
When they shall ban together, we shall accuse them of crimes and present a different story to the world for we own all the media. We will use our media to control the flow of information and their sentiment in our favour.
When they shall rise up against us we will crush them like the insects, for they are less than that.
They will be helpless to do anything for they will have no weapons.
We will recruit some of their own to carry out our plans, we will promise them eternal life, but eternal life they will never have for they are not us.
The recruits will be called "initiates" and will be indoctrinated to believe false rites of passage to higher realms. Members of these groups will think they are one with us never knowing the truth. They must never learn the truth for they will turn against us.
For their work they will be rewarded with earthly things and great titles, but never will they become immortal and join us, never will they receive the light and travel the stars.
They will never reach the higher realms, for the killing of their own kind will prevent passage to the realm of enlightenment. This they will never know.
The truth will be hidden in their face, so close they will not be able to focus on it until it is too late.
Oh yes, so grand the illusion of freedom will be, that they will never know they are our slaves. When all is in place, the reality we will have created for them will own them. This reality will be their prison. They will live in self-delusion.
When our goal is accomplished a new era of domination will begin.
Their minds will be bound by their beliefs, the beliefs we have established from time immemorial. But if they ever find out they are our equal, we shall perish then. THIS THEY MUST NEVER KNOW.
If they ever find out that together they can vanquish us, they will take action.
They must never, ever find out what we have done, for if they do, we shall have no place to run, for it will be easy to see who we are once the veil fallen. Our actions will have revealed who we are and they will hunt us down and no person shall give us shelter.
This is the secret covenant by which we shall live the rest of our present and future lives, for this reality will transcend many generations and life spans.
This covenant is sealed by blood, our blood. We, the ones who from heaven to earth came.
This covenant must NEVER, EVER be known to exist. It must NEVER, EVER be written or spoken of for if it is, the consciousness it will spawn will release the fury of the PRIME CREATOR upon us and we will be cast to the depths from whence we came and remain there until the end time of infinity itself
 

monica r. (41)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 4:14 am
So,Mary,

Did you watch the video link I put above? Did that guy get his "patience for answers 'rewarded' " on the day his head was hacked/sawed off with a small knife for leaving your beautiful Islam, by men reciting prayers of your beautiful Islam? It takes almost 4 minutes, Mary, to cut off his head. Isn't that beautiful and peaceful? Did you see the beautiful, peaceful blood spurting out of the apostate's neck as the man sawed at it with his knife? No swift stroke of a sword for him. Just sit still for two minutes (surely he was dead by then?) and think how beautiful and peaceful it would feel to have your neck cut deeper and deeper for those two minutes. Did the sounds of the supplications to allaah fade away as his life's blood drained out? He died for one reason, and that is for leaving your beautiful Islam.

I'm sorry you feel people like John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, and John Quincy Adams are "haters," but here in the USA they are considered to be founding fathers of our country.

It matters not a bit how many billions have been duped to follow the doctrines of Mohammedism (I'm going to call it that from now on since you said it implies worship of the prophet, and if rioting, death threats and murders over drawing a picture of him isn't WORSHIP, I don't know what is.... anyway, REAL G-d and His REAL prophets aren't afraid of cartoons). Right is right if nobody's right, and wrong is still wrong if everybody's wrong.

There are 1.22 billion Catholics in the world but I still think it is a misogynistic religion and disagree with a LOT of what they teach. I guess you would say that since there are a lot of them, they are that much more right? Or by your logic, since there are still more Christians than Mohammedans in the world, so is being christian more right than being a Mohammedan? Mary, that's not even clever enough an argument to count as sophistry. It simply doesn't work that way!

It is estimated there are millions of Neo-Nazis in the world today. If each one brought in 5 or ten converts and it became billions, would that make it morally right somehow? No, it would still be an evil ideology. Again, numbers of adherents don't make an ideology correct.

If you want to hold up as a shining example of perfection a man who married a 6 year old, and consummated the marriage when she was 9 (she was outside playing on a swing when her mother called her in for that, and she brought her dolls with her to Mohammed's house) go ahead, but I hate pedophilia.

If you as a woman choose to belong to a religion that says you are unclean and can't pray while you are menstruating, that you are a "tilth (field to plow)" for your husband, that your testimony in court is worth half a man's, and you may inherit only half what a man does, and whose prophet said women are 99% of the inhabitants of hell, women are like domestic animals, and women are deficient in religion and intellect (because they menstruate and are stupid, his words not mine) you are free to do so. I am opposed to oppression of women so I hate the doctrines of misogyny.

Maybe your conspiracy theory is true, but if you read to the end, the fact you know about it means it's doomed to fail.

Read the earlier posts. It is a simple thing for intelligent people to understand it is possible to hate an ideology while NOT hating the people trapped by it.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 5:47 am
Mohammed Ali----Muslim, World Heavyweight Boxing Champion
Kareem Abdul Jabbar----Muslim, Basketball Player, NBA leading point-scorer of all time
Cat Stevens----Muslim, Famous Musician
Zinedine Zidane----Muslim, regarded as one of the greatest soccer players of all time (in spite of headbutt incident)
Michael Jackson----apparently converted to Islam in 2008 re: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/3494296/Michael-Jackson-converts-to-Islam-and-changes-name-to-Mikaeel.html

I'm neither pro nor anti Islam but you will never see a single good thing said about Islam by Pam W., Rob and Jay, Carola May and others in their attack dog clique. Which is indicative of hate-mongers and fear-mongers.

 

Lloyd H. (46)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 6:22 am
Wow, I just love a cat fight first thing in the morning and what a perfect grudge match "Islamic Fundamentalist Sharia of Iran v. Christian Fundamentalist Sharia of America", ring the bell and let the theocratic propaganda diarrhea spew forth. Both the Quran and any version of the Christian Bible you choose are full of death sentences for idolaters, unbeliever/infidels, adulterers, witches,... both have endless list which they Choose to believe and enforce as they see fit. The Christian Taliban of America has no qualms about sentencing women to death so long as every pregnancy is carried to term or assassinating Doctors who are legally performing abortions or calling for the death of LGBT persons, Uganda, Ghana,..., or at least legalizing bullying them into suicide. Both have justified slavery, both have justified death penalties for various crimes, both have justified treating women as property, and both have evolved to varying degrees on just how far to go when literally, or not, interpreting their scripture and making it the basis of their law. One must note that under the Repug/Tea Bagged currently in control of various governments or parts of governments the evolution of Christian Sharia into the 21st Century is intentionally de-evolving the Christian Sharia that they desire to make the foundation of the US Constitution and US/State Law. There is an absolute disingenuous mendacity to quote the violent intolerant scripture from the Quran and not quote the violent intolerant scripture from the Bible that goes beyond the pot calling the kettle black into the realm of people in glass houses should not fire AK47s, particularly from American who live by a Constitution, specifically designed by the Founding Fathers, to separate Church and State and keep the Sharia of all religions out of the Constitution and Laws.
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 6:36 am

Same old lies and quotes from entirely denounced mischief maker (Ibn Ishaq). Yet you see what a following he has among the haters here! Same old tactics for pasting from hate sites where lies are all you can find. Same out of context misquotes. If I take any group of people and look for the worst of them, I will find flaws. But only a fool would try and convince themselves and each other that this is representative of all two billion people.

It is the same when you find someone who has lost his mind; he may well claim to be a Muslim for example but are people here so brain-dead that they conclude all Muslims are similarly afflicted? These examples amount to the daftest conjecture I have ever heard on public forums yet it is the only conjecture that the haters have in order to attempt to malign religion.

There is not a single valid argument to say that Islam is in anything but a perfect religion and an ideal way of life. I am not demanding that anyone should follow religion, this is forbidden in Islam but I am well within my rights to call out and expose these mischief makers.

It is obvious that Islam is a threat to world tyranny and the deliberate and blatant spread of evil. We have proof that there are professional propagandists; General Petraeus and the Israeli Ministry of [Miss] Information have publically admitted this. We have proof here on this thread that there are those who fabricate lies without shame in order to attempt to reduce the following this awesome religion. But as much as they try, they are only increasing the following of Islam.

Since the 'false flag' terrorising campaign there has been more interest than ever in Islam - people want to know what the oligarchy want them to be terrified of. And when they read the Holy Quran in order to know their 'enemy', they find out they are being lied to and they convert alhamdulillah. You can see who is really scared and it is not the Muslims; they have the protection of Almighty Allah (Azza wa Jall). There is no earthly calamity that can harm their souls and if they are true and sincere, only Paradise awaits them; this is God's promise to all monotheists. This Earth was never meant to be our eternal dwelling place - we are only here for a short time in order to assess our true worth (nobility and God-awareness/love of God). Those who try and be tyrants over this temporary assessment realm are deluded and are the losers - they failed the test and are bound for the Hellfire.

The Holy Quran was sold out in many major bookstores after the 2001 attacks and people are still flocking to Islam as a result. Subhanallah! Islam is now centre of attention and basking in the spotlights of the entire world. I have heard it said that any publicity is good publicity; even if it is scandalous lies!

This plotting against Islam happened before when devils plotted against the Mighty Messenger Jesus (peace and God's blessings be upon him);

"Then they plotted [against Jesus], and Allah also devised, and Allah is the best of planners." (Âl 'Imran 3:54)

Jesus (peace be upon him and his pure and blessed mother Mary) was made famous by the attempts on his life and those who tried to discredit and destroy him only succeeded in making him famous! Satan and his servants think they can outwit Almighty God but God is taking advantage of their evil ways and salvaging something good from it. God is spreading His greatest gift; Glorious Islam, to every corner of the world so that everyone will have an opportunity for salvation.

These 'haters', as they are becoming widely recognised, are working for terrified masters; hence their need for these outrageous lies. Do they really think, when they look out at this vast universe filled with stars and galaxies, that their tiny little form with their tiny little brains can outwit the All-Powerful Omnipotent Creator who made everything including them?! One has to see the comedy in this :p
 

Marianna Molnar Woods (9)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 7:06 am
it doesnt matter ahmedinijad what crazy law you are enforcing on your people, when God the only God gave us all the free will, your insane 'self proclamined law. .wont save you from bring burnt by fire and brimstone, and then it wouldnt reallly matter who drank or havent.....but it will WHO YOU KILLED FOR IT....
 

Allan Yorkowitz (452)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 10:28 am
Boy, did this article bring out some interesting points of view. Rob and Jay B., as always, right on target.
If it was me, living in a country that I despised, unable to leave, I would certainly go to the black market, and buy a bottle of Johnny Walker - it would be worth the risk.
 

pam w. (191)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 10:49 am
"Interesting points of view?" Allan...you'd need to decide if having your Johnny would be worth DEATH...because that's what the "peaceful religion" demands of its slaves.

But...as usual, the article brought out the same IslamoFANS who either copy/paste nonsense which is expected to "prove" Islam is "perfect" or to demonstrate that some trolls will defend ANYTHING to gain attention.
 

Lucie G. (42)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 11:49 am
I notice that lots of anti islam things have been said here. That saddens me as all islamists are not bad. As with all walks of life you get good and bad in every religion. By thinking a whole set of people are bad you restrict yourself from their friendship, enriching your life and getting a perspective on their culture. I thought religion was all about loving your neighbour and embracing our differences.
 

Marena Chen (200)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 1:12 pm
...HERE WE GO AGAIN...AND AGAIN...AND AGAIN..."I know better than you do - nanana"..." I'm MORE right than you are - nanana" ... What childish piffle which has NOTHING to do with the article....Why don't you all GROW UP
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 1:25 pm
Thank you dear Lucy! We prefer to be called Muslims if it's all the same to you and not too much trouble. Islam is our religion and we are 'Muslims' (God willing). I appreciate what you said though and I only wish everyone here could see such sense. Thanks to God, most people treat Muslims with kindness and respect. What you see here is not representative of the general feeling in my experience.
 

Florence Eaise (132)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 1:42 pm
Noted thanks death for drinking. Really?
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 1:59 pm
Rob and Jay B, why've you any belief that a religious believer should have to denounce things that're part of their faith? If you're of a mind to think they're wrong, you've the right to say at any length you've chosen they're wrong (and the right to ask that society forcefully stop any believer who's decided to put belief into action if they're causing harm). But those believers've no obligation to change their beliefs or say they're wrong to please others. You're very outspoken and should've learned that if you want the freedom to be outspoken you've got to make sure others've the same freedom.
 

Sarah G. (110)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 3:48 pm
What an incredible amount of time and energy is wasted in defending the cruelties and irrationality of organised religion!
 

monica r. (41)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 4:04 pm
Antonia,

I believe the point is not to expect them to denounce their faith, but rather to show they WILL NOT denounce the aspects of it that demand death to apostates (see above for video link of what this looks like), death to gays, death to women who marry outside of Islam etc. These are barbaric concepts to espouse. A decent soul might at least admit they disagree with those tenets. If they will not disagree, they are true Muslims, yes, but also support barbaric practices as part and parcel of that faith.

They are free to answer yes or no. They don't like to say yes to it, but refuse to say no. One of their lot, Scott F., DID answer honestly, and though I find the beliefs reprehensible I had a LOT more respect for him; at least he was honest.
 

monica r. (41)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 4:11 pm
Lucie,

all religions are NOT the same. In Islam you love your muslim neighbor, but the prophet/allaah instructs believers not to befriend non-muslims unless they must for their protection, and even then it is a deception for they are called to hate the infidels in their hearts while smiling in their faces. This is instructed by imams right up to the present day. I don't think all muslims actually live by that, though, but certainly there are those who do.
 

Quinton Smith (40)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 4:45 pm
Here we go again "HUMANS DOING WHAT HUMANS DO BEST THIS TIME IT IS MORE KILLING IN THE NAME OF SOME DAM GOD" good job humans good job. =^..^=
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 5:29 pm

Dear Monica,
I am sure you are well aware there is no earthly punishment for leaving Islam and that we (Muslims) are instructed to be exceptionally kind to all; including atheists. I know you have witnessed evidence of these claims already on other threads.

The Holy Quran does not state that homosexuals should be killed. Most other Great Faiths, particularly Judaism and Christianity are more outspoken than Islam on this subject.

It was God (Azza wa Jall) who annihilated those evil people in [the land of] Sodom who practiced sorcery and illicit sexual acts in order to attract evil magic. It rained huge clay boulders on that city and there were no survivors other than those who were pious and heeded the warnings from the prophet Lot (alayhi salaam). The Holy Quran does not say that we must kill homosexuals. But sodomy is certainly abhorrent according to all religions that I know of including Buddhism. It is way off topic but if anyone is interested I can prove this with all references from the Holy Quran, Holy Bible, the Torah, Vedanta and the Vinaya (Buddhist Scripture).

A Muslimah (female Muslim) is warned against marrying outside of her faith in order to protect her from being forced by a non-Muslim husband to leave Islam or neglect her duties such as her daily prayers. It is absolutely right that our sisters are protected and that Islam takes priority over worldly concerns for all Muslims. We do not forget what this world is for; Earth it is not our eternal abode. Please remember that one chooses to be a Muslim; "there is no compulsion in religion" (Al-Baqara 256).

I have no idea what "reprehensible belief" our brother has confessed to but I can prove all of my claims here.

And Sarah, there is far more time and energy spent spreading lies, hatred, racism, bigotry and division. It would be better spent on finding reasons to bring more love, understanding, truth and unity into the world; or perhaps you are hoping for more hatred and violence? Surely if I can expose lies like these from Monica and prove there is no reason to hate Islam or Muslims that is best for all.
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 5:46 pm

Dear Monica,
Perhaps you would share your sources for these claims that we are to "hate the infidels in their hearts while smiling in their faces". This goes against everything Islam stands for and is certainly not in the Holy Quran or any of the Sunnah or from any Islamic school of thought. Do you just make this nonsense up?

Islam is not a secret religion; our faith is available freely to anyone and everyone. It doesn't take long to read the Noble Quran to see what we are about. You could read it in a couple of weeks. Even there was some secret part of Islam, do you not think with two billion Muslims, someone would have infiltrated us and discovered the teachings of Islam that you mention?

Why would you want to foment such hatred and suspicion?
 

. (0)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 6:02 pm
All I know, if you do not accept Jesus Christ as our Saviour....you will not get to heaven, I will take that; accept it, and Cherish it. I do not want our country being Islamist. I want Christmas, Easter, and every holiday in between. I believe in the cross! I do not accept Moslem!
 

Cristina Calloni (0)
Saturday June 30, 2012, 8:33 pm
God bless all people with wrong understand of religion.
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 4:03 am

Hello again Tommy, would you like me to copy and paste the same reply for you here as I did for you yesterday on another thread? I have already proven that you are a mischief maker and that you deliberately altered Scripture or at least are propagating deliberately altered scripture. Have you no shame for what you do?

Do you think we do not read the Holy Quran? Many Muslims know it by heart.

The verse you quoted is entire mischief! It is not even correctly numbered! It looks similar to An-Nisaa 89 which you misquoted a small part of yesderday to try to fool the non-Muslims. This is what I wrote to you then;

Dear Tommy,
The last verse in An-Nisaa (4:89) which you failed to quote properly and added your own incorrect interpretation is typical of deliberate mischief I have come to expect here. If you quote the entire verse and it is translated properly and if you bothered to learn who this verse is referring to when it starts with "They", we would all have seen that the evil people this verse refers to the hypocrites of Makkah who feigned sympathy for the Muslims while remaining in Makkah and continuing to work for the enemies of the Muslims. They were plotting to destroy Islam with war and destruction!! This is why they were dealt with so severely. They were never Muslims in the first place either!! How can you dare to be such a rascal?! In would like to believe that you were just ignorant except that I have seen other posts of yours.

Here is the actual verse;
"They wish that you should disbelieve just as they disbelieved so that you may all be alike. Do not, therefore, take from them allies until they emigrate in the way of Allah, but if they turn their backs (on emigration), seize them and slay them wherever you come upon them. Take none of them for your ally or helper," (An-Nisaa 4:89)

Here is the link so that anyone who is suspicious can see I have been faithfully reproduced it. To falsify Holy Scripture like you did Tommy is definitely going to land you in the Hellfire;

http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=4&verse=88&to=91#s4_n118

If you see this version of this verse you will see almost the same thing but the translator has added a footnote to confirm the identity of those who deserved to die for their evil subversion and attempted overthrowing of the Muslims;

http://al-quran.info/?x=y#&&sura=4&aya=87&trans=en-ali_quli&show=both,quran-uthmani&ver=2.00

One is always advised to read a little before and a little after before forming or fabricating a meaning or deciding to whom a particular verse is referring. In the previous verse (4:88) we can see they were hypocrites. In 4:81, we can see that they were meeting at night and plotting against Islam. Tommy didn't even want anyone to read the first part of the actual verse he quoted and it is not surprising because it is basically describing him; "They wish that you should disbelieve just as they disbelieved so that you may all be alike".

It might be interesting to enquire where you got this incorrect translation from Tommy. Perhaps it was a hate site or perhaps you invented it? Please share it with us all with a link.

As for your other conjecture, it is true that we must obey the Messenger of God (sal Allahu alayhi wa alih) but how do we know which narrations are actually genuine? Fortunately everything that is of any importance is already within the Holy Quran and nothing important has been left out.

All schools of Islam testify that the Noble Quran is still perfectly intact. There is but one version of it and this is agreed upon by all Muslims without exception. No one can supplant what was revealed.

There are a vast number of ahadith some of which are considered outright lies. Only 25% were considered to be authoritative by one scholar even in our most famous collection (Kitab al-Kafi). Islam had a rough time as soon as the Holy Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa alih) left this world and many ahadith were fabricated by mischief makers (same mischief; different century). Any rascal can invent ahadith and they certainly did by the thousands!

You may well be able to find evidence apostasy from what humans have said but they are without the authority to represent Islam. Even though they may say they possess the actual words of the Holy Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa alih), this does not mean that they are true or that we have to obey them; this is Islam - not a game of 'Simon says' where anyone can create whatever commandment they wish.

We have a complex and time consuming system for the classification of ahadith. Their chain of narrators is carefully examined and it is ascertained which are strong, weak or absolutely false and they are graded if they might well be true. ANY that are in contradiction to the Holy Quran are thrown out and their narrator is considered unreliable for all his other narrations as well.

So it is all well and good you finding all these statements from various individuals with Islamic sounding names but if it contradicts the Glorious Quran it is clearly not Islam. Every school of thought within Islam agrees upon this unanimously.

If a Muslim could not freely decide to leave Islam without being punished by his peers the Holy Quran would have mentioned this. Instead it clearly states that there is NO earthly punishment. On top of these blatantly obvious ayahs which perfectly address leaving Islam, there are a multitude of other verses which confirm absolute freedom of religion;

"And whoso opposeth the Messenger after the guidance (of Allah) hath been manifested unto him, and followeth other than the believer's way, We shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and shall cause him to endure hell—a hapless journey's end!" (An-Nisaa' 4:115)

"Hence, pay heed unto God, and pay heed unto the Messenger, and be ever on your guard [against evil]; and if you turn away, then know that Our Messenger's only duty is a clear delivery of the message [entrusted to him]." (Al-Ma'idah 5:92).

Allah Almighty (swt) says to Noah (as): "Shall We compel you to accept it when you are averse to it?" (Hud 11: 28).

"There shall be no compulsion in religion..." (Al-Baqarah 2:256).

"Let him who wants to believe, believe; and let him who wants to deny, deny." (Al-Kahf 18: 29).

"If it had been your Lord's will, all who are in the earth would have believed. Will you, then, force the people to become believers?" (Yunus 10:99)

I am sure there are many more but here are just a few. What you are proposing is entirely against everything that Islam stands for. You haven't a leg to stand on. You cannot show me one verse from the Holy Quran that supports your ridiculous notion. You have listed a number of partial verses, none of which prescribe a death sentence for choosing to leave Islam. We do indeed obey the Messenger (sal Allahu alayhi wa alih) but he clearly says there is no earthly punishment.
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 4:07 am
Now dear Tommy, can you please tell us where you found this nonsense. Also you left out any reference to the capitalised part where you wrote "THOSE WHO HAVE EMBRACED ISLAM and THEN BECOME APOSTATES SHOULD BE KILLED".

Is this just your personal opinion? This is clearly not Islam but where did it come from? Why have you taken to creating or propagating a fake religion and are pretending it is Islam?

Please take the time to read my last post and kindly give us the source of this mischief. Perhaps you would like to explain why you would wish to foment divisions as well. It is fascinating to me why you would bear the sin of falsifying a religion in order to make it seem unattractive to people. Are you jealous of our faith? Perhaps you would rather be God yourself? Do you hope to encourage a war against the Muslims? Please share your motivation for these lies.
 

Marena Chen (200)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 6:42 am
...couldn't you people start your OWN thread (or debating corner) where you can "COPY, PASTE, ACCUSE, DEFEND, LIE THROUGH YOUR TEETH AND DEBATE etc etc etc TILL THE COWS COME HOME...??? You are forever hijacking threads and making it into something it's NOT...as I said before "GROW UP PEOPLE" You are a bunch of boorish bores....You all know WHO I mean...Don't you people have a life...???
 

Rob and Jay B. (122)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 6:52 am
Abu S, how can you look at all the killings by your founder and his thugs and see anything godly in it? Mohammed made a lot of excuses for his mass murders, forced conversions, rapes and thievery and you fall for it all. No godly man would have done all the evil things he did. Not the mouthpiece for a good god, anyway. Hitler claimed he was being guided by 'Providence', his deity, and he did nothing without that guidance. Why don't you follow him since he was being guided by some deity? Would you excuse all of his murders and force to conquer the world so his 'superior' way of life would prevail over us all, just as Mohammed dreamed of the same thing? He was just as 'godly' as Mohammed and they had much in common, like hating Jews and Christians. Power and greed and megalomania.

It sickens us to read how Muslims can read about Mohammed's murders and find it 'noble', or his 'marrying' and having sex with a little girl showing what a noble man he was for waiting to actually penetrate her little vagina when she was a voluptuous 9 (he just rubbed his old penis between her thighs and who knows what else he did with her, leaving her to clean up his semen, she says - how can you not be sickened by such depravity and debauchery? If a 53 y/o man today had sex with a 6 y/o child would you consider him noble?).

Even if people in Mecca didn't like Islam or Mohammed, and for very good reason, he had no excuse to attack and force them all to convert at the end of a sword, such a common Islamic tactic. They said Muslims who were armed could not enter their city since Muslims were so violent and intolerant. They had good reason to do so. Note how your history admits how they renounced Islam as soon as Mohammed died. Unfortunately, his underling warlords forced them to reconvert or die (the Riddah Wars) in between killing each other. How can you possibly think any of this is godly? What kind of god condones these abominations? What kind of people look at them and think they're noble or good?

Next you'll be telling us what a spiritual and godly 'noble' thing Mohammed did by having 900 Jewish men and boys' heads sliced off because they remained neutral in one of Mohammed's wars of forced conversions and wouldn't accept him as a Jewish prophet - he wasn't even Jewish! He sat and laughed while they were being beheaded in front of their distraught wives and children. Can't you imagine what a Satanic thing this was? He laughed while he divided up all their goods and property - always keeping the biggest share for himself, because, as usual, he had a very convenient 'revelation' from his imaginary deity that condoned his murders, rapes, thieving and Allah gave him all this 'booty' for his Satanic ways.

After he had them all murdered and stole their 'booty' he and his thugs raped the women and took what they wanted for 'wives' or sex slaves after just murdering their husbands/sons/brothers! He, of course, took the most beautiful and forced her to marry him and wear the veil. You think this was noble? Godly? Where is your humanity? How can any decent person think this is a godly man and this is a good god? It is as evil and sickening as any actions of all the other monsters in human history.

You could, and there are many who have and still do, venerate Hitler for his 'noble' deeds to make the world serve his commands. You could praise all his 'good' deeds, which there were some. After all, he was guided by a deity too - and from the looks of it it was the same one that guided Mohammed.

You're drinking the Kool Aid of Islam, you and Mary P and others. We feel very sad for you if you think this is what the Creator of all things is like. There is no love in Islam (except for Muslims). There was no love or godliness in Mohammed. You just choose to turn his murders, rapes and thefts into some godly campaign. Open your eyes and your heart.

He didn't even know the Abrahamic god's name and used the name of the pagan Arab god - Allah, the moon god (your crescent moon and star symbol even today). No wonder the Jews rejected him. Mohammed's father was even named Abdullah - Slave of Allah, after the old pagan god. He didn't invent the new name, he just continued the old religion, along with the hajj, Ramadan etc. How can you be so blind?
 

monica r. (41)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 7:09 am
Abu sajjad, Master of Taqiyya,

As far as reliability of ahadith, both Muslim and Bukhari are well accepted and used/quoted frequently by Islamic scholars. Moreover, the quran without context of the hadith is a meaningless jumble of contradictions. Only a few chapters don't contain verses that were later abrogated, or replaced by allaah with something better, as the quran itself explains it. It is published in order by length of chapters, not chronologically, so the hadith are needed to understand it, although YOU act as though they are worthless. In fact allaah instructs to follow the life and example of the prophet, which would be impossible without all of the sunna. You know this, but will use taqiyya to fool the infidel and further the cause.

There are certainly imams preaching this, I have seen it on video. As you say, in the modern age there are few secrets. Certainly the quran instructs against such friendships, in fact it says if you DO take infidels as friends, allaah won't protect you anymore:

3.28 Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.

Also, you full well know the verse of the sword "slay the idolaters wherever you find them" abrogates the "no compulsion in religion".
 

Rob and Jay B. (122)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 7:25 am
Abu S, you have quoted some nicer verses but you know as well as we do that those were all abrogated or cancelled by later verses. The qur'an is not written in chronological order.

Tommy S, thanks for clearing that up. You seem to know more about the qur'an and Islam than Abu and Mary P who try to make us all believe Mohammed was some Christ-like figure, yet Mary P refuses to renounce all the commans to kill those who criticize, question or leave Islam and gay people. She obviously doesn't believe in the older verses after all.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 7:27 am
I know one thing behind Tommy S's attacks on Islam----he accused me and another person with this "Now I know Satan is alive and well", meaning anyone whom he labels as a 'defender of Islam' means they are part and parcel of 'Satan'. LOL! And of course that damns anyone he cares to damn. He uses one religious belief as a weapon against another religion's beliefs. Sorry Tommy, been done for millennia. You're old hat..
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 7:29 am
Let's imagine for a minute that some verses of the Holy Quran were abrogated or altered; BY WHOSE AUTHORITY WOULD THIS HAVE BEEN CARRIED OUT? I would like an answer to this. Who has more wisdom and knowledge then Almighty God and His greatest and final Holy Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa alih)?

Absolutely nothing has been or ever will be altered in any way in the Holy Quran; this is God's promise. HE (swt) has sealed Islam against any tampering. Obviously no one has authority over God (Mighty and Majestic) and His Messenger (may peace and God's blessings be upon him and his family).
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 7:31 am
OH THE COWARDS ARE BACK.
COME ON ROB AND JAY, PROVE YOUR ACCUSATION THAT MARY P. IS A 'PAID ISLAMIST PROPAGANDIST'. You've been called out as a liar and you can't dispute it.

THE COWARD IS INEVITABLY A LIAR, AND THE LIAR IS INEVITABLY A COWARD.





 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 7:32 am
The Holy Quran is the ONLY Infallible source of Islam other than the Masumeen (alayhimus salaam) themselves and so everything else has to be measured against the Holy Quran for its validity. If it is in harmony with the Noble Quran then it is graded on the authority of the chain of narrators - if it is contrary to the principles of the Infallible Quran then it is dismissed out of hand and discarded as lies. There is no point in trying to push your nonsense and lies when they are in direct opposition to the Holy Quran! If you are so desperate to find something to hate about Islam then search the Glorious Quran or you are wasting your time. Even if you did find something that was fabricated by rascals, it is still not Islam unless the Noble Quran supports it.
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 7:34 am
From the second Surah of the Holy Quran;
"This is the Book of Allah, there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the pious, for those who believe in the existence of that which is beyond the reach of perception, who establish Prayer and spend out of what We have provided them, who believe in what has been revealed to you and what was revealed before you, and have firm faith in the Hereafter.
Such are on true guidance from their Lord; such are the truly successful." Al-Baqara 2:2-5)

You cannot possibly be telling me that your own pack of lies actually takes president over the Holy Quran as to what Islam is?! You think your false notions that are in direct opposition to this, the most awesome book in the entire history of the world, hold more authority that God's own dictation of His religion!? I think it is time you found yourself another occupation - propaganda is clearly not your forte. I hope all who read this will make a mental note of your fascinating delusion.
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 7:53 am
Dear Monica,
You translation of Al-i'Imran 3:28 is not so accurate. It is not about 'friends' it is about which side we stand during a conflict. Here is a much better translation;

"The faithful should not take the faithless for allies instead of the faithful, and whoever does that Allah will have nothing to do with him, except when you are wary of them out of caution. Allah warns you to beware of [disobeying] Him, and toward Allah is the return."

In a war for example, one must resist the temptation to be scared into foregoing one's principles in favour of a longer life or for to live in more comfort and ease under the protection of the evil transgressors/aggressors. In a nutshell, we must not be fickle and switch sides out of fear and cowardice; we must not sell our souls for worldly gain.

However, there are certain situations when temporarily concealing ones faith may be used but only as a strategy in war in order to deceive the enemy or for temporary evasion such as being confronted by a gang of violent Neanderthal Islam haters on a dark night on your way back from the mosque!

At ALL other times we have no choice but to tell the truth if we are Muslims.

There was just one other exception; we are permitted to tell our wives they are the most beautiful creature on Earth even if technically, they were not internationally and officially awarded that particular title :p
 

Veronique L. (209)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 8:08 am
This is really scary.....
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 8:17 am
I've been reading into various translations and there's a good site that compares major translations' various Koranic texts side by side. It's a useful site since it's allowing the reader to compare and see any differences or similarities.

http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/nora/html/3-28.html

In the case of 3.28, the overwhelming majority've used the word 'friends'.
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 8:35 am
There is not a lot to choose between any translations regarding the actual text itself; they are all very similar. Any of the most popular translators should be fine. But there are very slight differences in the purports depending on which madhab of Islam one subscribes to.

The advantages of a copy with a purport is that historical context can aid our correct understanding tremendously. 'Allies' is the better translation because this is referring to a particularly turbulent time for the early Muslims and there were many martyrs. Both authoritative translations that I use refer to 'allies';

http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=3&verse=21&to=30#s3_n25

http://al-quran.info/?x=y#&&sura=3&aya=23&trans=en-ali_quli&show=both,quran-uthmani&ver=2.00

Here is the purport;
"One should not be overwhelmed by the fear of other human beings to the extent of losing the fear of God. Human beings can harm a man but the most they can do is to ruin his transient, earthly life. God, on the other hand, can subject him to everlasting torment. If one is constrained in extraordinary circumstances to resort to a prudent concealment of faith (taqiyah) in order to save one's life, this concealment should remain within reasonable limits. The most one is permitted to do is to protect one's life and property without jeopardizing either the interests of Islam or of the Muslim community as a whole, and without causing loss of life and property to other Muslims. One must never allow saving one's own life to lead to the propagation of unbelief at the expense of Islam and to the dominance of unbelievers over Muslims. Here the believers are warned that, no matter how dangerous the circumstances surrounding them, they cannot escape God's reproach if they give substantial aid to those rebelling against Him, and cause any harm to God's chosen religion, to the community of believers or to any individual believer. For, it is to God that one will ultimately return for reckoning."
 

bob m. (32)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 8:56 am

1 John 2: 22,23.
Isaiah...Ch. 53
John 3: 16.
Glory...to the lamb of God.. There is NO other Name by which we are saved.
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 9:26 am
When examining the religion of Islam, one cannot just take one verse here and there and expect to gain an accurate picture; Islam was never intended to be only quoted; one must take all of the Holy Quran into account.

One of the other reasons for knowing that this ayat Al-i'Imran 3:28 is referring to switching sides out of fear and cowardice is because I know that we are commanded to treat EVERYONE with the most beautiful type of kindness on earth; the kindness that shares qualities with that of a pious Muslim who exhibits love for his elderly parents. This includes all of the adherents of the Great Faiths, the agnostics and atheists as well of course.

It is a useful verse to counter this Hollywood nonsense of what a Muslim is - we have all seen the stereotypical Hollywood Muslim; the 'kill the infidel', AK47 brandishing crazed and screaming Arab!

The truth is a lot less exciting, as far as narcissistic action hero films go, because actually we Muslim men are actually parent loving family men who dote on their children and immediately do whatever our moms tell us!

The most important duty after prayer is to respect, honour and obey our mother and father. But sadly, this doesn't put bottoms on cinema seats nor does it calm (read: dumb-down) some westerners to the extent that they don't care that two million Muslims have been unlawfully murdered in half a dozen illegal aggressive invasions and subsequent invasions that were all based on lies.

I am sure you many have seen this Ayat before; Surat Al-Mumtahana Verse 8;

"Allah does not forbid you (Muslims) to deal justly and kindly with those who have not fought against you in accounts of your religion and who do not drive you out from your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity."

I saw a wonderful purport to this Ayah on another thread and copied it (read: stole it);

The English word 'kindly' is used in this translation but it is woefully inadequate due to the fact that there simply isn't a kind enough translation for the Arabic 'bir'.

To fully understand the gravity of 'bir', one has to understand the vital importance of the highest relationship one could possibly have with mother and father in Islamic life for it is this same 'bir' that we must show to all including non Muslims and atheists.

When parents become old it is our privilege and our duty in Islam to display all the qualities of 'bir' in our care for them. 'Bir' includes all the good things that a relationship should have and excludes all the bad aspects of a relationship. No word of disrespect should be uttered toward a parent or even a look of resentment or contempt.

‘Bir’ is one of the many words for kindness in Arabic (rather like the many words that Eskimos have for snow) but this one is very specifically applied only to a depth of kindness that encompasses goodness, compassion, respect and patience as applied from a devoted Muslim towards their dear parents.

To further illustrate the gravity of this word 'bir';
A man came to the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa alih) asking, "Who among the people is the most worthy of my good companionship?" The Prophet said, "your mother". The man said, "Then who?" The Prophet said, "then your mother". The man further asked, "Then who?" The Prophet said, "then your mother". The man asked again, "Then who?" The Prophet replied, "then your father".

Allah huma saali ala Mohammed wa Ale Mohammed!

Sayyid Qutb also gives an explanation of this verse;
"Islam is a Deen of peace and a conviction of love. It is a system that has compassion to all people. It gathers all people (Muslim and Non-Muslim) under the banner of Allah like brethren in accord and love. There is no obstacle that prevents this from happening except an aggression from its enemies against it and its people. If those enemies show peace, Islam does not want animosity or to start it. Even when the enemies still show animosity, Islam always looks for ways to bring the relationship to normalcy through great conduct and justice."
He continues: "Islam allows Muslims to seek accord and love with Non-Muslims who did not fight them for their religion and expel them from their lands."

"Islam makes peace as the normal relationship between Muslims and Non-Muslims. This relationship is not distracted except with an aggression that must be dealt with, a breaching of truce, an obstacle in the face of delivering the message of Islam, shackling the freedom of religion. Other than that, the relationship is a relationship of peace, love, justice for all people." (In the Shade of Al-Qur’an, 6:3544)
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 9:56 am
I'd believe it more likely that the majority of major translators're correct in using 'friends'. Since if I've a true belief in a faith and've been informed by my holy book that disbelievers will end up in hell, I'd not want friendship with those whose sin is so great that it warrants eternal damnation. I'd not want to associate with hell-bound people nor would I want to risk being contaminated by their disbelief.

Much as I'd personally not choose as friends those who have beliefs I think are really abhorrent enough that, if I'd a belief hell existed, they'd end up there. Those worthy of damnation aren't to my way've thinking worthy of friendship. Worthy of distant tolerance due to freedom of belief being primary in my estimation, but not friendship.
 

Carol Dreeszen (364)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 11:02 am
Carola..You are so right!! Sometimes ignorance can be bliss but in this case with Kenneth and Mary P it's not the case..the ignorance is asinine!!
 

Edgar Zuim (48)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 11:06 am
Fanaticism generates intolerance, and is unforgivable. I do not believe God approves an atrocity like this.
 

Joan H. (20)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 11:24 am
I can't believe that Muslims, at least some here, think that others are so stupid to believe the lies that they are telling. Even if a person hasn't read the entire Quran, only has to look at different websites, Islamic ones at that, and get the true message of Islam. For starters here's 50 Questions and Answers on Islamic Monotheism, I especially love the very last line. http://www.islamhouse.com/p/184538
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 11:29 am
Dear Antonia, try not to get stuck on this one insignificant word. It doesn't really matter whether we use 'allies' or 'friends' in this verse (Al-i'Imran 3:28). In either case, this verse is universally agreed upon to be basically about not selling out one's morals to evil forces just because it is more advantageous to ones worldly benefit.

The cost to one's eternal soul for supporting an evil regime is far too great and even if it means one's survival is jeopardised, it is better for those who stick to principles of enjoining what is good and forbidding what is not good, even if it they pay the highest worldly price. Imam Hussain (alayhi salaam) lived and died this truth as a perfect example for us all.

Islam teaches that only God (Mighty and Majestic) knows whether a person is bound for Hell or not. We cannot tell unless He (swt) decide to let us know (which is extremely unlikely unless one is masumeen). Muslims are required to always treat everyone with kindness, love and respect, regardless of that person's ideology or religion. The only exceptions to this rule being when we endure violently hostility and are driven from our homes and are denied freedom of religion. Only then are we permitted to be less than extravagantly kind and loving (paraphrased from Al-Mumtahana ayat 8 - see above post).

We cannot be contaminated by any decent person by being loving and kind but if we start being unfriendly or even hostile for no good reason God forbid, then we may well find ourselves falling from grace.

My dear parents are atheist and I know many atheists and agnostics who I have a great deal of love and respect for. It is perfectly fine for me to be even best friends with them all. I would try to avoid really evil people whenever possible of course but all of us aim to do that. I define 'evil people' by the evil crimes they commit; not their ideology or religion.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 1:02 pm
Carol D., lol, coming from a Christian fundamentalist who wants Christianity in schools, well, you've been dismissed..
 

marie tc (166)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 4:59 pm
Dear Rob and Jae in my opinion and many others you are two of the nicest people on C2
I always enjoy and find your threads varied and interesting.
Well tonight you have raised the blood pressure of all the fanatics on all side they really have got their knickers twisted . Best to leave them to get on with it
Marena Chen you have a green star on the way
Some very angry comments not too many on the alcohol subject most comments seem to have gone beyond
 

Mary Donnelly (47)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 5:05 pm
Thanks for this post, and comments.
 

Fred Krohn (34)
Sunday July 1, 2012, 7:32 pm
Those 'Islamic' extremists sure make it easy to reject and condemn their 'religion'. Sharia is defective. Enforcing sharia should bring a death sentence to the enforcers. Responsible use of recreational drugs (including alcohol), relations in private between consenting unpartnered adults, and discarding Islam for a more sane faith are NORMAL ACTIVITIES and any pervert extremists trying to interfere with those activities should be stoned!
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Monday July 2, 2012, 4:51 am
Still waiting for proof from Rob and Jay regarding their hate-filled personal attack on Mary P. that she is a 'paid Islamist propagandist'..
Cowards.

A COWARD IS INEVITABLY A LIAR AND A LIAR IS INEVITABLY A COWARD.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Monday July 2, 2012, 5:59 am
No you're the vacuous one Tommy S. and a hypocritical Christian fundamentalist. You attack others with this "-"you are proof if any were needed that satan is alive and well" aimed at myself and another Care2 member. You're a joke. A religious bigot who as a Christian vilifies and damns others with your religious beliefs about Satan. LOL!

It is interesting to me to see exactly who and what are these various individuals in this attack dog clique. Almost one for one they are liars, cowards, and have an agenda.

 

monica r. (41)
Monday July 2, 2012, 9:00 am
Abu, Master of Taqiyya,
Abrogation is on the authority of allaah. You know this.

The quran itself explains how the verses remain in the quran, but are replaced or substituted with something "better":

"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" Surah 2: 106

"When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not." Surah 16:101

And if you go back to the quran, what is supported by the quran, Umdat al-Salik is a great source, approved as being in keeping with the quran by Al-Azhar as well as other Islamic authorities, (it is a well-respected Islamic source, and my copy has seals from authorities to attest it is a true and correct translation) what types of things are in there?

Rules/waiting period for a divorced "woman" who has not reached puberty.
The command to kill gays.
When you should beat your wife.
The amount women can inherit (half what men get).
The obligations of jihad (which clarify it's not a spiritual struggle).
Rules stating women can't leave the house without permission (men can go when and where they please).
And SO much more....

You are surely aware that the 5 pillars of Islam are NOT in the quran. Would you say they are not obligatory then?

Get real. You are full of contradictions and lies. First you say it's allies not friends, then you tell Antonia it doesn't matter anyway. So which is it?

Lying is forbidden in Islam, EXCEPT when the defense or promotion of Islam calls for it. If you can accomplish a goal without lying, you must not lie to accomplish it. If a goal can ONLY be reached by lying, then if the goal is permitted by Islam, lying to achieve it is permitted, and if the goal is compulsory (such as dawa?) then LYING IS COMPULSORY ALSO. It is preferable to just give a false impression rather than outright lying if that will suffice.
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Monday July 2, 2012, 10:18 am
Here is a borrowed previous post which deals with the false accusations that somehow Islam does not insist on truthfulness;

Taqiyya (dissimulation) is only permitted in two instances;

1, when it can avoid violence for example an EDL marcher asks me if I am a Muslim I can reply that Hitler is my Idol while in my heart I prostrate myself before Almighty Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala). This prevents the EDL from adding to their sins and avoids my being hurt.

2, During wartime to effect the misleading of the enemy with defensive strategies.

Everything else about the Holy Teachings of Islam insists on honesty and forbids all other reason for falsehood except we are permitted to exaggerate when flattering our wives. This I can prove with many more quotes from the Quran if it pleases you or if you doubt it. Here is one verse from Al-Baqara which should be sufficient;

In the name of Allah, the Most Compassionate, the Merciful.

"and cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is)." (Qur’an, 2:42)

"O ye who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses To Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, Or your kin, and whether It be (against) rich or poor: For Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (Of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline To do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted With all that ye do. (An-Nisaa 4:135)

To deceive one’s enemy during war is wisdom and good strategy and has been documented in every war since the 6th century and promoted by every military strategist also since that time.

This is why after 30 days of desperate siege in Medina and the Muslims being in extreme jeopardy, The Prophet Muhammad (ṣall Allahu ʿalay-hi wa alih) asked a man named Nuaym ibn Masud to break the deadly siege somehow. Nuaym said he could do this but that "this requires me to lie." Why would he have not lied to the enemy already if it was ok to lie to non Muslims? As noted above, the principle in Islam is honesty. The Prophet (SAW) gave him specific permission to lie saying, “War is deceit.”
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Monday July 2, 2012, 10:29 am

As I previously stated, the Holy Quran is perfectly intact and perfectly protected from tampering because the Holy Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa alih) brought us the Final Revelation before the End of Days.

I ask you again, BY WHOSE AUTHORITY WOULD THIS HAVE BEEN CARRIED OUT? I would STILL like an answer to this. Who has more wisdom and knowledge then Almighty God (Azza wa Jall) and His greatest and Final Holy Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa alih)?

You have completely misunderstood this verse (2:105) because you couldn't have read the verse right before it, unless you are just trying to make mischief. Here it is;

"The unbelievers, be they the People of the Book (Christians or in this instance, the Jews) or those who associate others with Allah in His Divinity, do not wish that any good should be sent down upon you from your Lord. But Allah chooses for His mercy whomsoever He wills. Allah is Lord of Abounding Bounty." (Al-Baqarah 105)

So hopefully you can now see that the verse below (2:105) is talking about the Torah (and also applies to the Bible). The Generous Quran has omitted some of the teachings of the Torah and included some that are as good and some that are better. Now please read it again and see the truth of it God willing;

"For whatever verse We might abrogate or consign to oblivion, We bring a better one or the like of it.* Are you not aware that Allah is All-Powerful?" (Al-Baqarah 106)

*The following three paragraphs are the purport for these verses and not my own work. If you are still not clear about this I suggest you read all three;
"This is in response to a doubt which the Jews tried to implant in the minds of the Muslims. If both the earlier Scriptures and the Qur'an were revelations from God, why was it - they asked - that the injunctions found in the earlier Scriptures had been replaced by new ones in the Qur'an? How could the same God issue divergent injunctions? Furthermore, they expressed their amazement at the Qur'anic indictment of the Jews and Christians for having allowed part of the revelation to be forgotten and lost, pointing out that it was impossible that Divine revelation should be erased from human memory. In all this, their motive was not to know the truth but to cast doubt on the Divine origin of the Qur'an. In refutation God states that He being the Absolute Sovereign has unlimited authority both to abrogate previous injunctions and to cause people to forget the injunctions He wants them to forget. However, God ensures that whatever He abrogates or causes to be erased from people's memories is replaced by something equally or even more beneficial."

"The Jews, who were addicted to hair-splitting arguments, instigated the Muslims to ask the Prophet a great many questions. God, therefore, cautioned the Muslims against following the example of the Jews in this matter, and admonished them against unnecessary inquisitiveness. The Prophet himself often warned the Muslims that excessive inquisitiveness (which was devoid of religious earnestness and the sincere desire to do God's will) had been the ruin of earlier religious communities. He stressed that people need not delve too deeply into questions left unelucidated by God or His Messenger. It was better to follow the injunctions which were clearly laid down, abstain from things prohibited, and avoid excessive inquiry about far-fetched, hypothetical issues, attending instead to questions of practical significance."

"This means that one should neither allow oneself to get angry at their spite and hostility, nor waste one's valuable time by engaging in useless debates and acrimonious polemics. It is better to wait patiently and observe how God deals with them. Instead of wasting energy in frivolous pursuits such as those mentioned above one should spend it in the remembrance of God and in acts of goodness, for it is these rather than barren controversies that will benefit man in the Life to Come."
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Monday July 2, 2012, 10:55 am

Dear Monica,
I hope I do not have to explain the second verse that incredibly, somehow you misunderstood (16:101). Neither God (swt) nor His Messenger (saawa) are subject to mistakes and if there were any corrections they would have done before Islam was completed. Islam was completed at Ghadir Khumm with a grand ceremony and the verse Al Maida 5:3 was revealed and included this sentence;

"Today I have perfected your religion for you, and I have completed My blessing upon you, and I have approved Islam as your religion." (Al Maida 5:3)

Where are you getting these false explanations? Surely someone is trying to fool you. If you knew the Glorious Quran, the meaning would have been obvious because of the context. But a verse on its own is subject to misquoting and mischief. Surely you have been duped; I would hate to think that you would have tried to misguide people intentionally, God forbid!

The Holy Quran was finished 1400 years ago; no changes could happen after the passing of God Messenger (sal Allahu alayhi wa alih). There were some verses like the ones relating to alcohol consumption that gradually introduced the Muslims to prohibition but no one can ever get away with touching even the smallest punctuation mark now.

No one has the authority to change Islam except God Himself. But no more of His messengers are due and the Holy Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa alih) is now left Earth and no more Revelations from Allah (Azza wa Jall) will come until after Judgement Day.
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Monday July 2, 2012, 11:19 am
So Monica, if I am lying as you imply then my soul is damned; for it is a serious offence. If anyone doubts my word it is possible to verify the evidence I have used from the Noble Quran. I have referenced the verses for your convenience; it would have been prudent to verify the other evidence I gave (which is also referenced) before accusing me of lying.

And why would we lie about Islam? If I am recruited through deceit to your religion I will soon discover from my studies of it that you are a liar and I would reject you and most likely your religion as well.

Why would I want to devote every part of my life and every breath I take to the Religion of Islam if I was not entirely in love with every part of it? I am so proud to have found Islam and to yearn to be accepted as a Muslim (one who submits [to God]). If I felt a need to tell lies to other it would be because of some shame yet here I am telling the whole world about my love of Islam.

Perhaps you would like to document exactly what caused you to conclude I am dishonest and then show us your evidence for these serious accusations.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Monday July 2, 2012, 11:25 am
@Tommy S., how 'Satanic' of you. LOL! You don't get the irony of some ass... like you using the belief of one religion to vilify another? No, you have no reasoning ability.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Monday July 2, 2012, 11:39 am
Did I mention these famous Muslims, who after all, practice Islam and believe in the Quran (which hate-mongers can only continuously attack as all evil). :

Mohammed Ali----World Heavyweight Boxing Champion
Zinedine Zidane----regarded as one of the greatest soccer players of all time
Kareem Abdul Jabbar----the leading NBA point scorer of all time
Cat Stevens----famous musician
Casey Kasem----famous radio deejay
Shaquille O'Neill---star NBA basketball player
Michael Jackson---apparently converted to Islam a few years before his death

Mohatma Gandhi (one of Rob and Jay's 'role models' on their profile page though how they can continually vilify the Koran and Islam as all evil with this statement by Gandhi shows irrationality at it's finest)::
"It is the duty of every cultured man or woman to read sympathetically the scriptures of the world. If we are to respect others' religions as we would have them respect our own, a friendly study of the world's religions is a sacred duty".

Bertrand Russell
"Collective fear stimulates herd instinct, and tends to produce ferocity toward those who are not regarded as members of the herd."

John F. Kennedy
"World peace, like community peace, does not require that each man love his neighbor -- it requires only that they live together with mutual tolerance, submitting their disputes to a just and peaceful settlement."

Martin Luther King Jr.
“We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools”

And one of my favorite:

Benjamin Franklin
“A man must have a good deal of vanity who believes, and a good deal of boldness who affirms, that all the doctrines he holds are true, and all he rejects are false.”
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Monday July 2, 2012, 4:00 pm
Kenneth, if someone were to list a handful of evil Mohammedans, I imagine you'd say that just because some believers're evil doesn't tell us anything about the religion since there's good/bad people in most things. I'm of the belief that just because some famous people - basketball players, a prizefighter, a soccer player, a deejay, and a couple of musicians are also Mohammedan would fall under the same theory - not really relevant.
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Monday July 2, 2012, 4:26 pm

I spoke to an Iranian Muslimah about this article yesterday. She didn't recognise this particular case and since it is a mystery who is being prosecuted, it does seem that this article may not be genuine. However, there really are strict laws forbidding public drunkenness and if it is proved that person intoxicated themselves intentionally, there are punishments. In the spirit of giving the benefit of the doubt, here are the thoughts of a westerner who converted to Islam, if this article were true. I write this in the hope that it will get this tread back on track and provide an alternative to the hatred and bigotry seen on some of the previous posts.

It is important to note that these laws do not affect the Jews or Christians living in the Islamic Republic of Iran; they may drink alcohol if they wish. A Muslim voluntarily accepts certain responsibilities when they accept Islam as an Iranian citizen and getting flogged if they were found guilty of intentional public drunkenness is one of them. If one agrees to such a punishment they do so because they decide (when they had a sober mind) that it is for their own good.

I believe a theocracy, closely based on Islam is by far the best way to live. I would have no hesitation to embrace laws that protect me from the influence of my 'lower self' or 'false ego' and that protect my family from all manner of alcohol related crimes and tragedies including the dangers of dangerous drunkards on the streets and in cars. I hope that I would have more sense than to drink poison which renders me a danger to myself and others but if I lose my mind then I would pray that 80 lashes would sober me up and act as a deterrent in future. It is nothing compared with the eternal punishments we might create for ourselves in the hereafter if we are not guided correctly. I see it as a blessing if a strict and pious father keeps me on the Straight Path to God and makes sure my mistakes don't go unnoticed. What kind of a father lets their child play dangerously without warnings? I would love it if Allah (Azza wa Jall) would flog me immediately every time I even had an inclination to sin - my place in Paradise would surely be assured if my punishments were immediate! But this test is not so easy. Thanks to God, we are sometimes blessed with a pious leader/President who actually cares about the welfare of our eternal souls as well as protecting our environment from those who become recruited by evils and weaknesses. A President who cares this much is bound to be unpopular among those who have already exchanged their eternal souls for fleeting worldly sugar-coated poisons. A sinner's wish is always to make sinners of all those around him; they are a dreadful influence.

My apologies for the lack of reliable reference to this speech which came from an amazing film called "The Guardianship of Love" about the life of our beloved eighth Imam Ali ibn Musa al-Ridha (alayhi salaam). His beloved shrine is in Mashdad. I hope someone can let me know if this narration is genuinely from Imam Reza (alayhi salaam) or if it was just from the film;


Piety, piety, piety. Be pious and do something deserving heaven.
The world was not created as our eternal dwelling.
It is created to be passed and good deeds should lead you to a better place.
Have you not seen those who had high hopes and desires?
Those who built firm castles and gathered much property?
Their houses were turned to cemeteries and their properties were lost.
Their belongings went to their heirs and their women to other's houses.
So seek shelter from God, avoid perversion and follow your leaders.
But your leader is one who is well guided, who knows and practices the Quran.
The worst people to God are oppressing leaders who have gone astray and make people go astray.
They make oppressors happy and the oppressed sad.
Go brethren, go and always remember God.


Every government tries to protect their citizens from homicidal maniacs, with lethal force if necessary but what about drunken maniacs? How many innocent people are killed by drunk drivers each year in your country?

The Holy Quran covers alcohol in two verses and mentions intoxication in another (which could be a broader meaning than just the effect of alcohol or drugs);
In the name of Allah, the Most Compassionate, the Merciful.

"They ask you concerning wine and gambling. Say, 'There is a great sin in both of them, and some profits for the people, but their sinfulness outweighs their profit.' ...." (Al-Baqarah 2:219)

This disapproving verse was the first to be revealed in preparation for its complete prohibition. The injunction prohibiting the performance of Prayer when in a state of intoxication came later (An-Nisaa 4:43);

"O you who have faith! Do not approach prayer when you are intoxicated, [not] until you know what you are saying, nor [enter mosques] in the state of ritual impurity - except while passing through - until you have washed yourselves. But if you are sick or on a journey, or any of you has come from the toilet, or you have touched women*, and you cannot find water, then make your ablution on clean ground and wipe a part of your faces and your hands. Indeed Allah is all-excusing, all-forgiving."
* That is, if you have had sexual relations.

Then ultimately, alcohol, gambling and the like were categorically prohibited in Al-Maida 5:90;

"Believers! Intoxicants, games of chance, idolatrous sacrifices at altars, and divining arrows are all abominations, the handiwork of Satan. So turn wholly away from it that you may attain to true success."

The punishments are not detailed in the Noble Quran and nor does it state there is isn't an earthly punishment but I am not aware of any school of thought within Islam that does not agree there are authorised ahadith which state that flogging, and extreme cases, where compliance cannot be gained in other any ways and after multiple reoffending in spite of flogging, even capital punishment can be utilised to protect society. I would like to show that this is not as irrational as it first might seem to a westerner or non-Muslim in the interests of mutual understanding and harmony.

Other Great Faiths also warn against alcohol;

Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
Proverbs 20:1

And be not drunk with wine, in which is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Ephesians 5:18

Look not you upon the wine when it is red, when it gives its color in the cup, when it moves itself aright. At the last it bites like a serpent, and stings like an adder. Your eyes shall behold strange things, and your heart shall utter perverse things. Yea, you shall be as he that lies down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lies upon the top of a mast. They have stricken me, you shall say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.
Proverbs 23:31-35

Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mix strong drink: Who justify the wicked for a bribe, and take away the justice of the righteous from him! Therefore as the fire devours the stubble, and the flame consumes the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have rejected the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 5:22-24

Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: And that you may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;
Leviticus 10:9-10

There are many more but I hope you get the picture. I am not aware of any religion or ideology that looks upon alcohol favourably; perhaps satanism, with its only commandment being "Do as thou will" is the only one. So many people practice this but so few truly understand this road to misery and Hellfire. In contrast, Jesus (peace be upon him) affirmed "Thy will be done..." [God's will] (Matthew 6:10).

Everyone knows in the days of prohibition there were fatal shootings of criminal gang members who were engaged in this crime and high speed crash fatalities of 'bootleggers' engaged in distributing alcohol illegally. The horror of these wild times has been dramatically depicted in movies and as a result, it is widely believed that prohibition cannot be enforced and that the harm of prohibition is greater than the harm of alcohol related problems in our society. This is complete nonsense and a clever deception. One reason might be because western governments want you to give back your wages in taxes and remain oblivious to the fact that the banks have deceived you by turning you into their slaves with usury and valueless fiat currency of which they control the issuance. Alcohol is the perfect lubricator for oppression and tyranny and it is a more effective weapon as bullets and bombs as suppression, if it can be spread among one's enemies.

The Islamic Republic of Iran is living proof that prohibition can be successfully enforced without gangsters with Tommy-guns holding us all to ransom. Alcohol is still available because there is a huge group of our Jewish and Christian brethren living in harmony with Iran's theocracy but there is no sickening epidemic of alcohol culture with all of its related evil that we have here in the UK and across the west.

If I had a daughter in the UK at 'clubbing' age I would be worried sick for her. It is not just the abduction, rape, pregnancy, aids and other dreadful diseases to worry about but also the fighting, road traffic injuries and fatalities, 'accidental' injuries and of course the disastrous health effects. If anyone has had the misfortune to require emergency medical treatment late on a Friday or Saturday night they will see it full of noisy drunks. The vast majority of young men in hospital in my considerable experience are there because they pickled their internal organs; there is nothing one can do for them; countless young men and women die a slow and dreadful, senseless death thanks to alcohol. It is agony to watch them slowly deteriorate after their livers fail. It is for their wives and young children that my heart bleeds.

Ask any alcoholic if alcohol is a good thing and they will tell you that it ruined their life. Not all of us have an iron will so it is safer for us all if we steer clear of its dangers altogether so that none of us can possibly become addicted. If it meant making a small sacrificing your 'little tipple' in order to save countless lives would you not at least consider it or at least understand why others have chosen to banish it from their society? Anyone who has endured an alcoholic in the family or an alcohol-related death or serious injury would not hesitate to turn back the clock and do without alcohol if it meant their family was not destroyed and their lives ruined by grief and loneliness.

The law to banish alcohol is a decision many countries have made and still enforce. Both Saudi Arabia and Kuwait have floggings for breaking the alcohol laws. Qatar may deport offenders or imprison them. Some areas of India (Gujarat and Mizoram for example) have a ban in place. Other countries with bans or strict controls are Bangladesh, Sudan, Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Brunei, Sharjah, Yemen and the Maldives.

In the United States, alcohol was illegal from 1919-1933 and in Canada from 1901-1924.
The Faroe Islands; 1907-1992
Iceland; 1915-1989.
Australia; alcohol sales prohibited 1910-1928.
Haryana, India, alcohol sales prohibited 1996-1998.
Norway 1916-1927
Finland 1919-1932
Prince Edward Island; 1907-1948
Russia and the Soviet Union; 1914-1925
Hungary 1919
China, Xia Dynasty (ca. 2070 BC–ca. 1600 BC)!
In New Zealand, prohibitionists had a majority in a national referendum in 1911, but needed a 60% vote to pass.

So why should there be all this hostility on this thread? Iranian Muslims are entitled to prohibit alcohol if they wish and they certainly do wish this for their society. America has chosen to make cannabis illegal and locks repeat 'offenders' up for decades, punishing their spouses and children with their absence for consuming what many would say is a rather innocuous plant that has medical benefits. Stoned hippies are about the host harmless (read ineffectual) people on earth; it is only themselves that they harm. So where is the logic? I am not really blaming the USA for wanting cannabis illegal; if that is what the people want then so be it. Who am I to argue?

I am strictly an abstainer from all forms of recreational intoxication but I am also for free will and freedom; but this has to be weighed against the freedom to not be put at risk by drunkards and for our children to live in a world that does not entice teenagers with clever marketing and Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP) to take away their free will to make the right choices and become drunken degenerates. If they knew that alcohol was so dangerous and if it was not freely available and it was discouraged with the truth about its enormous damage on the individual and society perhaps we would all be better off. Growing up in the UK I was one of only a handful of young people I knew that never drank at all. It is getting far worse according the the BMA; they (doctors) are discussing a ban on alcohol advertising with our government.

The early Muslims tried a gentle approach by just warning of its dangers but it was not so effective so after prohibition, the limit for flogging was set at 40 lashes and soon increased to 80 because it was still not working for some. Eventually for repeat offenders of public drunkenness who refused to stop supplying and drinking alcohol, capital punishment was prescribed. All Muslims agree this is Islam but very few countries enforce it and alcohol continues to destroy many lives; including the innocent victims of its 'collateral damage'.

For the Dutch, putting someone in jail for ten years for cannabis would also seem very extreme. The death sentence is a whole new level, especially to those like myself, who are from countries that do not have a death sentence for anything. But again ask Candice Lightner, the mother of Cari, her beautiful 13 year old daughter who was killed by a hit-and-run driver. The leniency of the sentence given to the repeat offender of driving while intoxicated (DWI) outraged Candice who then organized 'Mothers Against Drunk Driving'. The 46-year-old drunk driver, who had recently been arrested for another DUI hit-and-run, left her body at the scene.

There were 16,885 deaths from drunk driving in 2005 in the US alone. There problem with drunk driving is that when you are intoxicated, driving might seem like a reasonable thing to do. What would a grieving mother do if she could put the clock back and have the drunkard executed after his 'three strikes' of drunk driving convictions in order to prevent the tragedy which stole her family away. It is all very well hoping it will never happen to you but it could. It certainly happens to an outrageously large number of people. They are quick to seize guns from people who might engage in crime again but how do you stop a drunk driver from reoffending? Alcohol and cars are freely available. Someone is bound to be killed - that is inevitable and Iranians have decided it should not be the innocent victims that have to die.

Drunk driving is only the tip of the iceberg of the problems with alcohol in society. There are too many to list. Every imaginable evil, every crime will be more likely and more severe with the addition of alcohol. The Holy Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa alih) is reported to have said it is the mother of sins because after consuming it, man can indulge in other major sins. Yet we seem to not only tolerate it here, but it is embraced by many and celebrated in the west as a huge part of their culture and identity. You could say it was a religion here with such a dedicated following that makes such costly sacrifices to its worship. What other culture is there in the UK? Either you go down the pub or if you are a 'young buck' you might go out clubbing. Unless you are a bit of an odd-ball, these are the pursuits of most of the UK youth. There are so few alternatives. When males are in the pub or club, the only entertainment seems to be to tip alcohol down your throat and talk increasingly incoherently while lusting after similarly drunken females. It seems an incredible waste of young and creative minds. Perhaps the 'Dark Age' here while the Islamic science was absolutely thriving had a great deal to do with alcoholism in the west and the lack of it in Islamic culture.

The UK Government stated: "Alcohol related crime and disorder has a major impact on the quality of life of many people. It is associated with a wide range of offences ranging from minor public order offences, which are anti-social by nature, through traffic offences, minor assaults, serious assaults to murder."

In launching the Government’s Action Plan in August 2000, Home Office Minister Charles Clarke said: "Public drunkenness can give rise to serious problems of disorderly conduct, nuisance, criminal damage and alcohol-related assaults, particularly in the proximity of licensed premises at closing time. In addition, it can increase fear of crime and so reduce the quality of life for many people. This is clearly unacceptable." Alcohol-related crime featured prominently in over 70% of Crime and Disorder Strategies. (IAS.org.uk)

I know that alcohol is responsible for most of the crime here. I think the government is afraid to reveal the horrific truth of exactly how much. It is responsible for rapes, abortions, teen pregnancies, adultery, injuries from fighting, falling, crashing cars, choking on vomit and fatal effects of its poison. I am sure all of us would give up a glass of wine with a meal if they could see the hidden costs of having that 'luxury'. What if it was your underage daughter who was pregnant from an alcohol fuelled unknown father after suffering the nightmare of rape? How do you go about telling a young child that their father is dying and there is nothing anyone can do?

I am not expecting everyone to be 'on board' with me but I am asking for a little understanding of the different ways other people wish to live; we are not all the same and that should be ok. I will remind you again that it is only the Muslims who have volunteered to be governed by the Islamic/Iranian laws relating to alcohol. I am hoping you will see the way Iranians wish to live is not so strange or alien even to a westerner when some thought is given to the reasons for their decisions. I am sure they would think we were more crazy for allowing alcohol to dominate our culture, ruin so many lives and be such a malevolent and demonic mistress.

Freedom is a wonderful thing but freedom to get drunk occasionally compromises everyone else's freedom to not be subjected to the horrors a drunken person can pose; not just when they try to drive but generally. For most people, their alcohol consumption is not a burden on the rest of society but we have to be realistic; for others, alcohol turns Dr. Jekyll into Mr. Hyde and that is a disaster and a burden all our communities have to share; even those of us who refrain from drunkenness altogether. I dearly hope it does not cause the death of my loved ones but it is almost guaranteed that it has just ruined the lives of several people even in the time it took you to read this.

I see far too many people with this delusion that they know everything about everything to such an extent that the slightest difference is considered so objectionable that they are ready to declare war on anyone who doesn't wish to live exactly as they do; this is a very stupid, arrogant and dangerous attitude.
 

marie tc (166)
Monday July 2, 2012, 5:34 pm
Dear Abu I respect your beliefs but do not try to make me understand them.
My religion Anglican has had to change in todays world and Almighty God the father would never inflict flogging or 80 lashes on anyone
Jesus Christ the son of God was the gentlest man on earth for me
So much of what you say is true of alcohol but man must be in charge of his own destiny so many more atrocities are committed without the use of alcohol but in the name of religion.
It is quite common to see Muslims drinking alcohol in the UK it is accepted particularly younger men and women things are changing for us all Abu and we must accept change I believe whatever religion you are listen to what the bible says try as much as possible in this day and age to live by the ten commandments
When people leave there countries it is inevitable old ways are often lost
We must live by whatever God we choose not always what we are born to and never out of fear that is my belief
love thy neighbor
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Monday July 2, 2012, 7:21 pm
Where I grew up, liquor sales weren't allowed on Sundays. So anytime anyone went to a restaurant for their after-church lunch, they'd just ask for 'Scottish coffee', 'Kentucky sippin' coffee', or suchness - and the coffee cup'd come to the table filled with whatever high-octane beverage was desired (always minus the coffee, of course). Open secret and no one but the hardline Baptists cared much about the deception. Blue Laws're just crying oute to be broken with glee (and forbidden fruit does always taste sweeter!)
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Monday July 2, 2012, 7:53 pm

Dear Marie,
Thank you for reading my post and for your comment. Our faiths are more similar than you know;

I heard a narrative sometimes referred to as the 'Cleansing of the Temple' in the New Testament of the Holy Bible. Do you agree that Jesus, son of Mary (peace be upon them) delivered a flogging to the moneylenders himself?

"And when he had made a scourge [whip] of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables..." (John 2:15)

The narrative occurs near the end of the Synoptic Gospels (at Mark 11:15-19, 11:27-33, Matthew 21:12-17, 21:23-27 and Luke 19:45-48, 20:1-8) and near the start in the Gospel of John (at John 2:13-16).

Do you agree that Almighty God (subhanahu wa ta'ala) also destroyed every living soul that remained in the city of Sodom with His 'evil rain'?

"But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all." Luke 17:29

Both our faiths are about Peace, Mercy and Love but they are also about Justice. We cannot sit back and allow evil to lay waste to our world and our dear ones without resisting it.

Islam also believes that man has a limited freewill within God's plan and it is nothing but the misuse of this freewill which crates evil and atrocities. We are not compelled by any religion to 'roll over' to any monstrous sinner if they wish to destroy our families and deny us our ability to worship God. Rather we are obligated to prevent them by protecting our religious way of life.

If there are those who claim to be Muslims yet they are drinking alcohol it is worse for them since they should know better. It is a very grave sin in Islam; even the mother of sin. I have never seen such a fallen Muslim thanks to God. Alcoholism will never be accepted by any true Muslims. Times change but principles and the commandments of Allah (Azza wa Jall) do not. Islam is the religion of our time and for at least until Judgement Day.

Islam is not specific to one part of the world, anymore than Christianity is. It is regrettable that there are so few Islamic theocracies but even though I am a UK convert, my life is an Islamic one God willing. No matter what others are doing or where I live, I will practice Islam with God's Mercy and assistance. "There is no compulsion in religion ...". I chose Islam with my freewill thanks to God; there is nothing to fear for Iranians unless one wishes to jeopardise the safety and security of others. This is absolutely as it should be according to all Great Faiths.

The Ten Commandments are entirely in keeping with Islam; you can see here on this link that we also have them in our Noble Quran. It is a table that lists all of the Laws of the prophet Moses (peace be upon him) followed by the corresponding verses of Islam;

http://www.islam101.com/religions/TenCommandments/tcQuran.htm

Islam also has "love thy neighbour" ("love for your brother what you love for yourself") and Christians also are permitted to defend yourselves if your neighbour wishes to wage war upon you or drive you from your homes or oppress you. (see Surat Al-Mumtahana Verse 8). Here is a link to this very subject from Faith Magazine;

http://www.oasiscenter.eu/node/344

It is not that I wish to force my beliefs upon anyone God forbid; but I do feel that at the very least, Islam should be respected just as all Great Faiths should be respected. If people learnt about Islam from true Muslims, instead of the filth that politicians and banksters are issuing to us as propaganda (through the mass media) to further their agendas for world governance and military ambitions, we could all worship in our own ways harmoniously with an utmost love and respect for each other; an attitude that is similar to the enormous love and respect I have for all monotheists (believers in One God).
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Monday July 2, 2012, 8:00 pm
Since the Christian Bible's allowing of alcohol (and even promotes it in moderation), then Christians should have no problem with it - in moderation. It's drunkenness that's condemned. Wine's one of 'god's gifts' and should be consumed with a 'good heart'.
 

marie tc (166)
Tuesday July 3, 2012, 4:15 am
Lets hope there is one God and .depending on what part of the world we live we call him different names and because of culture we worship differently Lets get rid of obsessions cruelty pedophilia fanaticism irrational zeal and insane power hungry leadership in all religions What a better place the world would be sadly there is a very long way to go
Such true words Antonia once again we are back to mans lack of discipline whatever the religion.
Thanks again Rob and Jae for starting such a stimulating thread and thanks for most diverse interesting comments from everyone
 

Bernard Cronyn (31)
Tuesday July 3, 2012, 5:01 am
Poor old Kenny he seems a bit like the South Park one that everyone picks on. He has these sensitive buttons labelled “Iran”, “Islam” and so one that all these horrible hate mongers press every now and then and his fingers are compelled to type at the speed of light. Mind you he seems to have gathered a small army of supporters with the same malaise who outdo him by many pages. I wonder who has the time to read all this twaddle?
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Tuesday July 3, 2012, 5:05 am

Dear Antonia, do not confuse the watered down and corrupted parts of the Christian Church with the pure teachings of Jesus (peace be upon him) and the other great prophets (peace be upon them) from the Holy Bible. Alcohol clearly was forbidden altogether in the Holy Bible. Where then does it encourage drinking? Did you not read the verses I quoted?

If as you say, there are some verses from the Holy Bible that "promotes it in moderation", which I am sure you will provide for us if it exists, why this confusing inconsistency? Why does the Church encourage Christians to drink intoxicating poison which not everyone can control, when it leads to social and moral bankruptcy in so many? Science has proven that there is more harm than good in it, just and the Holy Quran told us 1400 years ago and all Great Faiths thousands of years before that. It is one of just four rules in the Vedic religion; no intoxication and no gambling are two of them.

I would conclude that the turning of water into 'wine' at the wedding was actually black grape juice; the Hebrew 'yain' has, in Arabic (wain), the meaning of 'black grapes'. It would be an easy mistake to make. I suggest the translations that imply alcohol was ever served are mistranslated. Paul claimed to channel the teachings of Jesus (peace be upon him) and this was 300 years after the time of Jesus (alayhi salaam). Since he was in direct opposition to the original teachings of Jesus (alayhi salaam) and of the Torah and now the Quran, I think it is obvious that he wasn't really channelling the spirit of Jesus (peace be upon him) but some other spirit who was an impersonator. Some might say that hearing messages from spirits was not altogether healthy in any situation. Islam forbids such practices of wanting to contact 'jinn'. It is also worth noting that although Judaism and Islam forbid eating swine, Paul decreed that it was ok in spite of countless health reasons to the contrary.

This verse regarding the Marriage at Cana is also perplexing to me;

"Jesus said unto her, Woman, what have I to do with you? My hour has not yet come." John 2:4

It is deeply disturbing to my heart that any man could refer to his beloved mother as "Woman". This can never be the attitude of a decent man to his mother. She had come to him to explain that there was no more 'yain' (grape juice) and he allegedly treats her worse than a grumpy tyrant treats a lowly slave girl! We are talking about the Infallible Jesus (peace be upon him); a Mighty Messenger of God and a prophet of Love who never wronged anyone! Yet without even provocation he is said to have referred to his own blessed mother Mary (peace be upon her) in this dreadfully disrespectful manner. The Blessed Saint Mary (alayhas salaam) is a most revered and devout favourite of Allah (Azza wa Jall) in Islam; we have a whole chapter in our Noble Quran (Surah 19) which bears her blessed name. I simply will not believe that such exquisite souls could be involved in such ignorance; it is a disgrace! Is there anyone here who would dare to summon their mother by calling her 'woman'? Could anyone say to their mother, who has done more for them than any human, "what have I to do with you?" I sincerely hope not! Even the most villainous criminals are capable of loving their mothers. Islam tells us that are mothers are the most deserving of our time and respecting them with unconditional love is our most important duty after our obligatory prayers.

When there is doubt, surely it is better to apply the 'precautionary principle'; you will be safe from error by abstinence of alcohol and you may save yourself and society the grief of enduring an alcoholic if you happen to be one of the unfortunate souls who discover a weakness for alcoholism. One cannot know in advance but when one finds this out it is already too late for many.

There is no doubt in my mind or any Muslim as to whether God likes us to drink alcohol or forbids it categorically. Surely these verses below are clear enough;

Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
Proverbs 20:1

And be not drunk with wine, in which is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Ephesians 5:18

Look not you upon the wine when it is red, when it gives its color in the cup, when it moves itself aright. At the last it bites like a serpent, and stings like an adder. Your eyes shall behold strange things, and your heart shall utter perverse things. Yea, you shall be as he that lies down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lies upon the top of a mast. They have stricken me, you shall say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.
Proverbs 23:31-35

Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mix strong drink: Who justify the wicked for a bribe, and take away the justice of the righteous from him! Therefore as the fire devours the stubble, and the flame consumes the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have rejected the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 5:22-24

Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: And that you may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;
Leviticus 10:9-10


Reason cannot possibly convince us that alcohol is a good thing. Even trying it once might lead any one of us down a path of destruction. Does anyone really think the so called 'pleasure' (for some) in drinking poison is worth the tragedy and sinfulness it foments? Would you like to explain this to Candice Lightner or the soul of her deceased 13 year old daughter whose broken corpse was left in the road by a repeat offender of drunk driving? Is your 'tipple' really worth all that? Please remember that she was one in many thousands who are killed by drunk driving every year. If anyone needs alcohol that badly I suggest they seek medical help or begin a detox program! Surely their priorities are corrupt. Even if you seem to have your alcohol consumption under control, who can guarantee that a calamity or tragedy will not cause a sudden increase in the reliance upon alcohol?

Why is it so difficult for some to understand we are all better off without it altogether? Is crack cocaine alright in moderation? Maybe there are some people that can keep it under control? Where to you draw the line? Humans are fallible and fickle and not everyone will stop at 'moderate' drinking. Some moderately drunk person may be sufficiently impaired to mount the pavement and wipe out our family. In 2001 in the US, 5000 lives were cut short by 'legally drunk' drivers. Driving carries a risk and alcohol increases that dramatically but the same goes for every poor decision people make. Alcohol makes life worse; moderate alcoholism makes it moderately worse. This is still unacceptable to my mind.

Or at the very least, why can't we all understand and respect the decision of a long list of countries whose people decided they don't want alcoholism in their countries, threatening the safety of their loved ones?
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Tuesday July 3, 2012, 5:32 am
I don't mind providing the verses, since asked, and the passages are ones many of us have read over the years in the Bible.

Psalms 104:15 praises god for all the good things he's given us. Including: 'And wine that makes the heart of mortal man rejoice, To make the face shine with oil, And bread that sustains the very heart of mortal man.'

Ecclesiastes 5:7 says the reward for good works is to 'eat your food with rejoicing and drink your wine with a good heart.'

And Jesus, of course, turned the water into wine at the wedding. And it wasn't, of course, grape juice: John 2:9-10 'Every other man puts out the fine wine first, and when people are intoxicated, the inferior. You have reserved the fine wine until now.' And Jesus drank wine at the Passover service. And:

Luke 7:34-35: "The Son of man has come eating and drinking, but YOU say, ‘Look! A man gluttonous and given to drinking wine, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ All the same, wisdom is proved righteous by all its children.”

And science hasn't proved there's more harm than good in alcohol. In strict moderation, alcohol has some beneficial effects on the body, which even the Christian Bible states: In 1 Timothy 5:23 Paul told Timothy not to 'drink water any longer, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent cases of sickness.'

Proverbs 31.6-7 ' Give intoxicating liquor, you people, to the one about to perish and wine to those who are bitter of soul. Let one drink and forget one’s poverty, and let one remember one’s own trouble no more.'

The Christian Bible's many passages about not overindulging in liquor and not allowing drunkenness. And many passages about acceptance of drinking.

And why a few contradictory passages? Writings by different people at different times for different purposes with different outlooks on life. Contradiction in the Bible's a sign of no divine guidance but rather of entirely human authorship.
 

marie tc (166)
Tuesday July 3, 2012, 5:38 am
Reading many comments I can see that so many problems arise from interpretation of both Holy Bible and Quran. We have to understand these books were written a very long time ago and we have progressed.
My forgiving God would understand that certain changes would have to be made.
Alcohol yes is dangerous in the wrong hands but food is also a great killer in this day and age that applies to all religions whatever the diet you see obesity in all race and religions perhaps we should concentrate on that instead of alcohol Food affects many children in the womb but hopefully if a pregnant Muslim woman was caught eating soft cheese she would not be flogged I do not know if diet is important to a Muslim lady during pregnancy.
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Tuesday July 3, 2012, 5:45 am
I'm in agreement, Marie. For me the key's moderation. Many things're good or neutral and enjoyable in moderation, harmful in excess. I love breads. No harm there. Except when I give in to gluttony and eat lots and lots and lots of bread, which I do more often than I like (it's my favorite form of overindulgence). I gain weight from it, which's bad. But eating bread's not bad, just eating too much.
 

marie tc (166)
Tuesday July 3, 2012, 5:52 am
Abu please check John 2 14-15 no mention of Jesus ever using a whip on the money changers in his fathers house.
Maybe Mel Gibson used one in the film
Again interpretation so dangerous Seeing Jesus angry and upset surely made them all run
 

marie tc (166)
Tuesday July 3, 2012, 5:55 am
Can not send a green star to Antonia as I have done so in the last week
Thank you Antonia for giving me a smile I totally understand about the bread YUMMY
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Tuesday July 3, 2012, 6:23 am
Antonia, you miss the point of me posting famous Muslims or religious tolerance quotes. It's to provide a slight balance to the preponderance from this same group of individuals whose almost total intention and activity is to vilify EVERYTHING about the Quran and Islam. Of course they say they 'don't hate all muslims' yet when asked who and where are these muslims they 'don't hate', and how many compared to the one billion muslims, there's silence.

You actually stumbled on it in your last post above this, moderation. There is NO moderation from this clique of individuals such as Rob and Jay, Tommy S., Pam W., Carola May, and the rest of the crew.

It's not true either that it comes down to not giving any significance to a list of Muslims who are extremists and saying they're a minority and vice-versa. I don't condone ANY acts of injustice or violence. But you actually have to have COMMITTED an act of violence or injustice, not just condemned on what you THINK, such as this crew does with any individual who tries to say something good about Islam or the Koran.

To further be indicative of hate-mongers, I've asked any one of them to SAY SOMETHING GOOD ABOUT MUSLIMS OR ISLAM OR THE KORAN. Anything. Dead silence. See, that would be moderation, temperance, something other than bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, etc.

You never see it. It's indicative.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Tuesday July 3, 2012, 6:36 am
@Bernard Cronym, you're out to lunch.
These articles, more than 200 in the last year, by Rob and Jay, are 95% about muslims, and are regarding terror, horror, crime, bad news, killing, murder, destruction, etc. If one were to put it more in detail it would be thus: bad news, bad news, bad news, bad news, bad news, bad news, bad news, bad news, bad news, bad news, bad news, bad news, bad news, bad news, bad news, bad news, bad news, bad news, bad news, bad news..........about 200 times.

It's a fact.

Whether it's justifiable or not, it's a fact.

An indicator of a fear-monger or hate-monger or 'chaos merchant' is they deal mainly in BAD NEWS.

Another indicator is they alter bad news to make it even worse, meaning they take an incident, which may or may have been embellished and slanted by the news source to begin with, but they then generalize it to paint virtually EVERYONE who believes in the Koran or Islam as being guilty too.
 

Bernard Cronyn (31)
Tuesday July 3, 2012, 6:46 am
Praise be we have Mullah Nasrudin Kenny come to earth to comfort us all and bring us the gooooooood news! No death destruction or hanging only the positive with chubby little Canadian angels fluttering by bidding farewell to fear-mongering and terrible shivering in the boots. When are you going to start your own religion or maybe have you thought of stand-up comedy?
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Tuesday July 3, 2012, 7:01 am

You say the Bible has "no divine guidance" but you have no proof of this. There is a great deal of proof that Jesus (peace be upon him) did indeed exist and that he was a remarkable being; most likely a Messenger of God. Certainly the vast majority of people know this.

But if the Bible contains corruption as you say and some human, rather than altogether divine input; it is very likely that it is the divine verses that forbid drinking and that human weakness are responsible for the ones that might appear to allow alcohol. Certainly it is the consensus among all Great Faiths.

Thanks to God's Mercy, the Glorious Quran was completed and approved within the lifetime of the Holy Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa alih). It was memorised and copied across the world and every Arabic version of it is identical. It was then sealed against all tampering because no one else has any authority to tamper with it.

The same devils that plotted to murder Jesus (peace be upon him) remained in power and were guardians of the holy teachings of Jesus (alayhi salaam); this does not bode well for the continuity and purity of his message. The Romans were well known for decadence and alcoholism and those scribes and Pharisees that were in league with them may well have conspired to alter certain texts to preserve their corrupt way of life; it is highly likely that their influence has contaminated these sacred teachings.

You say "we have progressed" but tell me how do principles of right and wrong, truth and falsehood become different with the passing of time? Is it not just that society is steadily abandoning morality in favour of decadence? The alcohol that was poisonous and forbidden to us; is it now harmless? Are modesty, chastity and compassion now irrelevant? It is obvious they are out of fashion with a few who have abandoned all hope of being saved but they are still qualities that are dear to many pious hearts. Just because some people are rushing to dive into the Lake of Fire does not make this hapless journey's end any more attractive to those who ponder on God's great religions and prostrate themselves before Him (subhanahu wa ta'ala).

Why do you say that "certain changes would have to be made"? Surely you do not mean we are compelled to sin now because we are 'modern'!

You advice to focus on obesity rather than alcoholism is bizarre. Why not just focus on a correct diet that is free of poisons? And why not enjoin all good behaviour and forbid all bad behaviour - this is key to happiness and ids the unanimous verdict of all Great Faiths. Why do we have to keep drinking alcohol in order to work on a healthy diet? Even more bizarre about this idea is that alcohol is often a factor in obesity; the sugar content in beer and wine is enormous!

You admit that "Alcohol yes is dangerous in the wrong hands.." but how do we know which hands are safe to maintain moderate drinking? Are 5000 deaths from legal or moderate drunk driving acceptable to you? Would it still be if a few of those victims were your dearest ones? Only the selfish cannot make a small sacrifice in order to potentially save thousands of lives. It may not happen to you, that alcohol dramatically destroys your life somehow but it will happen to thousands of people in the world every year. Is your moderate drinking so important to you that you would not forgo this indulgence for the sake of the lives of others? I would have concerns for a person's dependence on alcohol if this were the case.

Islam takes care of our health holistically and the warnings against alcohol, eating swine and other unclean creatures are a blessing which Jews and even some Christians also benefit greatly from. A Muslim must not gorge themselves nor eat too much meat. It is recommended that we do not fill our stomachs to their entire capacity and we fast regularly unless we have medical issues that negate the benefits. There are a number of Islamic edicts that once adopted, become an easy and natural part of our lives; it is no difficulty at all to make only wise choices. The difficulty comes with indulging in the wrong food and drinks; that is why God (Mighty and Majestic) spared His pious ones the dangerous effects of certain activities.

Of course Marie, there are dangers in over-indulging in the foods that God has allowed us but there are some poisons that have no safe limit and are harmful overall even in moderation. Fortunately, Allah (Azza wa Jall has told us what these are and has warned us against them and He knows best and we do not.

Dear Marie, in every copy of the Holy Bible you can see that Jesus (peace be upon him) made a scourge/whip of small cords and drove them all [the moneylenders] out of the temple. There are 18 different translations on this link, on the same page, from all the different version of the Holy Bible and every one of them concurs with this. Perhaps you are mistaken.

http://www.bible.cc/john/2-15.htm
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Tuesday July 3, 2012, 7:56 am
@Bernard, my you are a fruit loop aren't you. LOL! Another, though lesser seen member of the attack dog clique, almost one for one are proven cowards and liars.
 

Bernard Cronyn (31)
Tuesday July 3, 2012, 8:07 am
For a holier than thou Canadian liberal you ain't half judgmental my Mullah friend! My would I love an opportunity for you to show me face to face what a brave man you are and what a coward I am.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Tuesday July 3, 2012, 8:19 am
You're an ass.... Bernard. You attack me for the country I'm a citizen of? What a laughingstock. And who is surprised that eventually the 'peacemongers' of this attack dog clique are actually violent-minded themselves.
Crawl back under your rock and come out only at night. During the day put on a good front.
 

Bernard Cronyn (31)
Tuesday July 3, 2012, 8:26 am
Little darling Kenny you know nothing of me and never will. As for you I would have more respect if you signed up to the religion you love (maybe you already have) instead of playing the valiant protector of 2.5 billion religious adherents. They must think you quite a hero.
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Tuesday July 3, 2012, 8:29 am
Very true, Abu, that I've no proof the Bible isn't composed of divine guidance, since it's a full impossibility to disprove negatives like that (though if divine guidance penned it then we've an evil, capricious, possessive, mass-killing god doing the guidance, so I've a hope no such type of all-powerful being exists.) Just as you've no proof that is is of divine origin (and positive proof's a possibility, of course - but doesn't seem to exist). Faith's a matter of belief when evidence doesn't give the answer.

Marie's right. We've progressed as a species. Most've no longer a belief that disobedient children should be killed. That slavery should be accepted. That men should be in charge of women. That various people who flout purely some religious law should be killed. That it's rather wrong for someone (like Abraham) to plan to sacrifice his child because he's a notion his god told him to (luckily today we've a habit of jailing those who make plans to kill their kids.) And in many other ways've progressed beyond what men in ancient societies thought best and worst. With luck we'll go on progressing and'll maybe shake off some more of our bad beliefs and habits that still plague humans.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Tuesday July 3, 2012, 8:34 am
@Bernard, nor do I ever want to know anything about you LOL! And in the short space of your 3 posts you have made 3 LIES. I'm not a Mullah, I'm not your friend, nor do I 'love' Islam.
You have a real personality problem if you think any of this has to do with me as a person.
 

Bernard Cronyn (31)
Tuesday July 3, 2012, 9:17 am
Oh dear Kenny, I do apologize. I had you wrong – you have so many avid acolytes on this and other posts that I was sure you must run a mosque. From my point of view (different to yours) I cannot envisage even our local golf club of 300 members requiring my (or yours) defence and sponsorship let alone a religion with billions of believers. I would have thought with all those members and all those oil dollars they would be able to just, maybe stagger along without your never-ending protection and vindication.
 

monica r. (41)
Tuesday July 3, 2012, 11:23 am
Abu,

"2, During wartime to effect the misleading of the enemy with defensive strategies."
And interestingly, the entire non-muslim world is known as "dar al harb" or "house of war" because until the world comes under shari'a, islam is at war with the parts that aren't yet.

source: mideastweb.org:
Dar al Harb
Dar al Harb (Arabic: دار الحرب "house of war") refers to areas outside Muslim rule, as opposed to Dar al Islam. The precise designations of such territories can vary widely according to the speakers idea of who is and is not a Muslim, and which governments are or are not Muslim in practice. The inhabitants of the Dar al-Harb are called harbi (Arabic: حربي), as opposed to dhimmi (second class citizens of the book - Christians and Jews) or kufr (non-believers, pagans). According to ancient law, a harbi does not even have the right to live. To enter the territory of Islam (Dar al Islam) he needs a safe-conduct pass called an aman. The term has meaning today for Islamist extremists.

Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi was quoted in As Sarq al Awast of July 19, 2003 as saying:

"It has been determined by Islamic law that the blood and property of people of Dar Al-Harb are not protected."

Likewise, Sheikh Ali Gomaa said in an interview published in July 2003 by the Egyptian newspaper Al-Haqiqa:

"...it is permitted to kill him, because he is a Harbi and the Harbi spreads corruption throughout the face of the earth."




Or else you're in a lot of trouble because as some of us point out, there are lies buried in your mountain of logorrhea.


Do YOU understand the second verse I gave??? The thing you worship is saying it reveals stuff in stages, so for example when "no compulsion in religion" worked better because Mo was politically weak, that was given, and later, when he was in a position to do so, "kill the unbelievers wherever you find them" was substituted for "no compulsion".

Are you really that obtuse or just acting like it?
 

marie tc (166)
Tuesday July 3, 2012, 11:53 am
Dear Abu Please in your opinion" Allah knows better (Azza wa Jall has told us this etc etc )
In my opinion Allah does not know better
Perhaps "interpretation of drove them out" means he went running through the temple waving his whip without ever striking any one we must respect each others views remember.
 

marie tc (166)
Tuesday July 3, 2012, 1:13 pm
Can not send a star to Bernard Cronyn as you have done so within the last week
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Tuesday July 3, 2012, 1:54 pm
Not even the point Bernard.
Btw, better check the religion of each of those 300 golf club members, you know, so you can know who to like and who to dislike. Oh if everyone was only a Christian like Marie..
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Tuesday July 3, 2012, 5:12 pm
Here's what one Christian group says about Muslims:
http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/islamterrorism.html

http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/lovemuslims.html

Never seen this site before, I don't go to such websites except this time I wondered about the Christian commandment: "Love thy neighbor as thyself; there is no greater commandment than this".

And no this isn't Christian propaganda, I have no such agenda.

.

.

 

Kenneth L. (314)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 1:37 am
Too bad Marie that every human being is doomed to hell if they aren't Christians or accept Jesus as the only path to salvation. But make sure you 'love thy neighbor' anyway. Oxymoron.
It's also a fact that every Christian wants every single human being on earth to also be a Christian, or accept Jesus as the one truth and way to God (from the Bible).
As with all dogmatic religions those who are 'in the club' are fine, and 'protected', and have it made in the shade, while everyone else who isn't 'in the club' is doomed, eventually and inevitably, period. Lovely!
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 1:58 am
@Antonia, maybe progress would also mean that any religion that actually WORKS would include EVERYONE, not just those 'in the club'. No wonder a lot of people can't stand organized religion, though more precisely IMO, they can't stand organized DOGMATIC religion (there are a few that aren't dogmatic).
It's rather hypocritical (other than for the simple benefit of 7 billion people getting along together on a planet) to 'love everyone including those you know are doomed to hell unless they believe in the same dogma you do"..
 

marie tc (166)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 3:23 am
There is an unwritten rule at dinner parties
Never discuss SEX RELIGION or POLITICS
Reading this thread it really made sense as some people get so highly strung imagine us all having dinner haha
Once again thank you for posting Rob and Jae
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 6:07 am
Marie says: "Never discuss SEX, RELIGION, OR POLITICS"
That's BIZARRE because in most of her posts on this thread she talks about RELIGION---- the Bible, the Koran, Jesus, flogging in the bible, God, Allah, worship, beliefs, Anglican....
Are you sure you are living in reality Marie?

I 'love'your camofluaged barbs too Marie. Tee hee hee!.
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 7:51 am
I've no understanding of that 'love everyone' bit either, Kenneth. I respect everone's rights, which's only fair since I expect them to respect my own rights. But, love? Just because all other people are fellow homo sapiens doesn't make them objects of my love. I've no desire that everyone else love me since love's too precious a thing to devalue it by calling our reaction to billions of unknown strangers 'love'. Disinterested respect's a wonderful thing.
 

Rob and Jay B. (122)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 8:23 am
Abu S, it's incredible the parroting you Muslims all learn. You all say the exact same things about everything without, apparently, ever doing any intelligent questioning or research on your own. You are told 'the qur'an is all true, every word, and nothing has ever been changed or removed or is missing', Why? 'Because Mohammed said so'. Why do you believe anything Mohammed the mass murderer, pedophile, hatemonger, bandit said? 'Because the Qur'an so', despite his life of rape, greed, cruelty and debauchery. How do you people compartmentalize all of this so well so you keep the truth from interferring with the fantasy of this circular 'logic'?

No wonder Islam must command death for anyone who criticizes or questions it. It can't stand up to the light of honest investigation. Truth welcomes questions, for that proves it. Only lies need to silence questions. If Islam were true questions and criticism would only prove it so, but you know that it doesn't.

We've already pointed out to you how your own Muslim writers of note who are revered and believed have, themselves, written clearly how ungodly and evil Mohammed was. They've written clearly that the qur'an was changed and much was lost because of all those who had memorized parts of it were killed in the many wars to force people to convert and finally in the Riddah Wars when those many who had been forced to convert to Mohammed's hateful 'religion' from the peaceful, tolerant Arab pagan one, renounced Islam in large numbers when he died, thinking they were free from Islamic oppression. But Mohammed's thugs forced them with the sword to stay in Islam and your Arab pagan deity, Allah, condoned all of this. You think this is 'glorious'?

(BTW why didn't all wise Allah, as he constantly tells us, see the violent upheaval in Islam after Mohammed died and appoint a successor or give instructions before hand to prevent all Muslim infighting, violence, hate and death that still exists between all the branches of Islam?)

You parrot all the phrases you've been taught to say, but they are NOT supported by the truth of what is said in your own Islamic writings.

Mohammed had very convenient 'revelations' each time he wanted to take some one else's wife, have more 'wives' than 4, steal his victims goods, murder those who wouldn't follow him, rob caravans, etc etc etc. Allah even set him free from having to obey his own rules he set down for everyone else:

"And most surely you [Muhammad] conform (yourself) to sublime morality [68: 4]." &

Qur'an 66:1 "O Prophet! Why forbid yourself that which Allah has made lawful to you? You seek to please your consorts. And Allah is Forgiving, Most Kind. Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows." (how convenient for Moh to get a revelation from Allah saying he was free to sin all he wanted to. How can you believe this was a righteous, godly man?! How can you believe this was the word of a good god?)

How can you believe anything a man like this says? Read your own books. It's all there. No one has to make anything up to show what an evil scam-artist Mohammed was and what a fraud the Qur'an is.

We challenge you to read the Qur'an in a language you can understand. Read the ahadith so it makes some sense. Read Bukhari vol. 6 chapter 61 at least - 'The Book of Virtue of the Qur'an' which clearly tells how the Qur'an was changed, how much was lost, what was eaten by a sheep, how many Muslims refused to accept the new one written by Uthman.

Your Arab god Allah (NOT the Abrahamic god) certainly didn't do anything to preserve this book he supposedly dictated through some angel, otherwise not a word would have been changed or lost, which was what happened.

Mohammed wrote the so-called 'Satanic Verses' condoning venerating and praying to Allah's pagan daughter goddesses to please the pagans of Medina, just as he appeased them by using the name Allah after calling his god by other religions' names - Ar Rahman, Lord (from the Jews who used this adjective for their deity because they wouldn't say his name and Allah apparently didn't know that deity's name either) and Ar Rahim. These are all names OF gods, not names FOR one god. Which one is the real Islamic deity? It certainly is NOT Yahweh, the god of the Jews and Abraham.

If Mohammed was inspired by Satan, as he admits, to write even these few verses, what's to say it wasn't Satan who 'inspired' the whole thing? Mohammed's life of murder, robbery, rape, pedophilia, cruelty, torture, lying, greed, adultery, etc certainly is not that of a mouthpiece for a good god is it? No. Jesus Christ lived a godly life and was opposite to Mohammed in every way. Buddha taught goodness, peace and nonviolence and was far more godly than Mohammed.

Islam's pillars and main beliefs were copied from the Hanafi, the Jews gave him the idea for some of his dietary laws, he knew nothing about Christianity and made up a whole new story for Jesus that bears zero similarity to the Jesus of the Gospels(you should read them, not just the propaganda from Islamic hate sites, unless you're afraid to) and he got a lot of his ideas from the Persian Zoroastrians like the narrow bridge to cross after death, the ever virgin servants of muslim mean in Allah's big brothel in the sky, and the laughable night ride on a white horse up to heaven and his jokey conversation with Jesus, Moses & Abraham (you should read the hilarious conversations he had there, especially him asking Jesus to tell the story of Noah's Ark!).

He kept much from the pagan religion: The name of his god finally changed to Allah, the same name for the pagan's chief moon god, the sacred black stone of the Kabaa which the pagans venerated, walked around, and the stoning of Iblis.

Allah was already worshipped by the pagans, that is historical fact. Mohammed's own father was named Abdullah - Slave of Allah - before Mohammed chose that name finally after using 3 other gods' names.

'Deodorus Sicolus in 60 B.C. mentions the Ka’aba and it is clear that the Ka’aba, hajj (pilgrimage) and other customs existed before the Islamic faith. Pagan Arabs therefore worshipped at the Ka’aba, did their obligatory hajj and threw stones at Iblis (the devil) in Wadi Mina.'

'The Sabaeans in the time of Mohammed prayed seven times a day and just like Islam, at appointed times. Ritual is very powerful in Islam and the Sabaeans fasted and celebrated Eid and just like the Ka’aba and stoning Iblis; it is abundantly clear that the religion of Islam incorporated all these things from different faiths within Arabia.'

'Mohammed, therefore, fuses elements of monotheism and borrows from his knowledge of Christianity and Judaism; albeit, with mistakes added. At the same time he fully understands that the powerhouse belongs to Arab Paganism and while he destroys other gods at the Ka’aba; he still incorporates the old ways and the black stone and other rituals are maintained.'

http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/op-ed/islam-converted-the-pagans-but-did-paganism-convert-islam/

www.prophetofdoom.net, the 'Qusayy Scam'
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 9:34 am
Rob and Jay B, there's nothing unusual about Mohammedanism borrowing elements from other traditions. That's something Christianity's been in the habit of doing as well, and others. Those who've a mind to create new religions, produce offshoots, or bring existing ones to new areas and people always knew it's smart to incorporate local customs and traditions in the mix. Makes it much easier to convert others. Religious advocates have historically been great borrowers.
 

Ge M. (216)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 11:57 am
@kenneth, you seem to spend all of your time coming onto these sites to ignore the subject and to spew hatred against people who dislike the extremism of Islam but not necessarily Muslims. You prefer to deliberately ignore what is being said just to write long rambling attacks. You have no interest in the suffering of the Muslims or non-Muslims, just the desire to abuse. I am sorry for you that you have such a sad pathetic life that you have nothing to do but abuse and be aggressive.

@Mary P, I see that you have copy/pasted from a previous item a comment about "wonderful" Islam. However, as I said there, you have been unable to find anything from Islam to support your claim to Carola that Mohammed was a decent human, he wasn't and my comments from the Koran on http://www.care2.com/news/member/296771588/3396511 clearly prove that he was a sex mad, untrustworthy, hedonistic paedophile. Hardly prophet material.

I'm quite sure that you will both come back and abuse me but fail to profer any true information or sources to contradict me. All that you will prove is every word that both I and the others say, is true.
 

marie tc (166)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 12:15 pm
"Marie says never discuss sex religion or politics " at a DINNER PARTY
I would hardly call C2 a dinner party just in case anyone misunderstood
Actually there are quite a few people on this thread I feel I would enjoy having dinner with.
Another very nice saying is "Always look for the good in people even if you have to look deep the bad negativity is often staring you in the face"
Gillian a green star on the way
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 1:40 pm
Oh, here she is, one of the stars of the attack dog clique, Gillian herself!

No you're a bit late on the scene Gillian. I've encountered all the fear and hatemongers of your fellow clique members, cowards, liars, false statements, unproven accusations----it displays itself for all to see.
Gillian "You have no interest in the suffering of the Muslims or non-Muslims, just the desire to abuse". TOTALLY FALSE. TOTAL LIE.
All your attack dog clique have the same stripes. Too bad you cannot control what others think. In this case, me.

You are an expert at veiled barbs Marie. Well done!
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 1:53 pm
No Gillian the actual truth is that Rob and Jay are cowards and liars. They have accused Mary P. of being a 'paid Islamist propagandist'. She denied it, I asked for proof, there is only silence and ignoring by Rob and Jay. Thus, cowards and liars until proof is given.

@Antonia, you're starting to perplex me. You're a Christian. Your holy book is the Bible. It says "Love thy neighbor as thyself. There is no greater commandment than this".. So what gives? It's not ME that said it. It's in the bible for all Christians evidently to practice. I just posted it as a fact of Christianity of which you're one (Anglican).
Why are you explaining to me about your love or lack of it for your fellow homo sapiens? Wrong person. Has nothing to do with me personally what you do. I would think it would have to do with your fellow Anglicans or priests or doctrine.
 

marie tc (166)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 1:56 pm
Those members who feel under attack-: I
If someone strikes you on one cheek. turn to him the other

If someone takes your cloak do not stop him from taking your tunic

Luke 6 40
Mather5 40
Araimic
King James Bible Cambridge

The difference between Christians and Muslims

 

Kenneth L. (314)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 2:03 pm
Yes, Marie, and that includes anyone who is the target of your camouflaged barbs. Direct, indirect attacks, all the same. You just think you're clever but actually lack confront.
I have no qualms whatsoever about attacking those who make false statements, lies, veiled barbs, unproven accusations put forward as true but not backed up by proof, engage in fear-mongering, hate-mongering.




 

Lucie G. (42)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 2:17 pm
I dont agree with it. But if they know the consquences why do it
 

Ge M. (216)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 2:54 pm
@Kenneth, you have just proven everything that I have said. No substance, just hate and abuse.

Actually, you ought to be aware that we are the ones that bring out human rights issues wherever they are needed regardless of race, creed, colour or religion. We stand up against Christian abuse as well as child abuse or female abuse, most of which are Muslims. Of course, you are too busy being abusive and stupid to see what we do nor do you do it yourself. Nor do you condemn the evil you just say it is all lies. Pathetic excuse of a person doing nothing but abusing those that do do. Get off your backside, get a life and join in the desire to bring these abuses out and to try to agitate to help. I know, you are too busy being abusive and aggressive to actually do anything about the true suffering. Sad!

 

marie tc (166)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 3:33 pm
Oh Gillian I wish I could send you another green star
I have decided only to speak one to one with members I respect
I refuse to get into a barrage of abuse from anyone call it barbs boobs or whatever anyone likes.
I always find you knowledgeable and enjoy your comments I think I have told you that before
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 3:45 pm
Oh that's rich Gillian. YOU ENDLESSLY ATTACK EVERY SINGLE THING SAID BY ANYONE WHO COMES ON THESE THREADS OF ROB AND JAY'S, NO MATTER MUSLIM OR NON-MUSLIM IF THEY SAY THE SLIGHTEST THING GOOD ABOUT ISLAM OR THE QURAN. THAT'S FACT.
But the great wonders like Gillian and the rest of her attack dog clique NEVER SAY A SINGLE GOOD THING ABOUT MUSLIMS OR ISLAM. NEVER. Just a generality of 'we don't hate all muslims' so as to hide behind. When asked who and where these good muslims are, And what percentage of these 'muslims we don't hate' are compared to the total billion of muslims? DEAD SILENCE. Like Mary P. is harassed and harangued and doesn't owe any of you cretins the sweat off her feet regarding how she feels or what she believes or thinks I ask you to speak freely, let it flow, about all the muslims you 'don't hate'. Let's hear your GOOD STATEMENTS ABOUT MUSLIMS AND ISLAM AND THE QURAN. Speak freely. Now you're pinpointed so let's hear your good self about this.

Another fact, YOU ARE NOT AN AUTHORITY ON ISLAM. FAR FROM IT. YOU ONLY THINK YOU ARE. YOU MANUFACTURE OPINIONS AND CONTINUOUSLY MAKE FALSE STATEMENTS AND LIES.

Marie, you never like me from the first and only previous time we met on another thread where you advocated and supported the sterilization of some retarded people, and I disagreed completely with you.
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 4:12 pm
Kenneth, I'm not a Christian. I'm atheist, so I don't live by Biblical principles (unless they also happen to be principles I agree with ethically). I also've read the Bible many times which is why I know it fairly well.
 

marie tc (166)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 4:17 pm
I actually met Kenneth on a thread one to one posted by Dandelion concerning Queen Elizabeth and Prince Phillip killing ten Native American children some Doctor was involved we were the best of friends and I actually sent him a green star. but I guess he does not remember that
I also find this rather rude discussing my involvement with Kenneth on Rob and Jaes thread
Please everyone accept my apologies but I refuse to one to one converse with him even though he has tried to pull me into most comments if you check the thread
I and many others did not join C2 to be attacked and called names why cant we just agree to disagree and enjoy interesting threads he can not even remember how we first met
I truly believe Kenneth has his own views and I wish him well I have no intention of falling out with him
Perhaps on another thread I will agree with him who knows this is not personnel Just because I do not agree with him does not mean I do not like him
I am so sorry to interrupt the thread but I felt I had to tell you all
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 5:15 pm
No, we first met on a thread by Iona Kentwell about a sterilization law in Australia. Do you want the link Marie? You advocated and supported the sterilization of some retarded people. I completely disagreed with you.

We have never 'been the best of friends'. Where do you get this stuff from? You have never been on my friends list and believe me, if we were ever friends you would've been.
That thread of Dandelions contained inaccuracies and make unproven allegations regarding Mohawk children by the author of the article. Since it was about Canada I was more extra interested.

You need to confront the truth Marie wherever it is, irregardless of what you only want to hear or think. You may think you act correctly and are a standup example of something but that doesn't make you right or correct, period.

I'm not interested in 'being nice'. Not when it's unimportant compared to false statements, lies, and unproven accusations made by individuals. I'm not sweetness and light like you..
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 5:41 pm
Got it Antonia. I have no problem with saying I'm wrong where I'm wrong, and in this case I thought you were Anglican. My mistake. Btw, you are one of the few individuals on this thread, including the other 'Indonesian church-burning' thread who is balanced and reasoning.

Any time any of the clique wants to say ANYTHING GOOD about the Quran or Islam let's hear it. I asked this of Pam W. and Carola May---SILENCE. I've asked this of Gillian, Rob and Jay, and any of the clique. So far SILENCE. Probably a few hundred thousand words of bluster and attacks by this attack dog clique against any C2 members who say the slightest good thing about Islam or the Koran and NOT THE SLIGHTEST good thing or good news said by them about Muslims or the Koran or Islam. Indicative to the extreme of their intentions.

In case another generality is spread about me on these threads, I've commented on about 10 or 15% of Rob and Jay's 200 anti-muslim C2NN stories they've posted in the last 10 months.

 

marie tc (166)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 5:44 pm
Kenneth must check his dates Dandelions thread was first the thread regarding the retarded children was well after
Kenneth does not read my comments I said we were the "best of friends" meaning I was in agreement with him on that thread I never connected to him
The thread regarding the children I do not deny I made a spontaneous remark without thought which was wrong and I admitted it Then I had enormous help from someone else on the thread I am really not this goody two shoes person Kenneth thinks I am no way am I "a stand up person" OF WHAT believe me I make my mistakes like everyone else I genuinely do not know what truth Kenneth is talking about but I would really like him to check out Dandelions link to confirm then perhaps he will admit he is wrong I totally agreed with him on that thread and admired his research
At the end of the day I have to say in Kenneths favor there is never a dull moment when he gets going and you all seem to handle him much better than me
I promised myself I would not get drawn into this but here I go again
 

marie tc (166)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 5:50 pm
Again I am so sorry this thread has now become about me and Kenneth which is so boring and unfair to you all
How this happened i do not know
If Kenneth has anything else to say please speak to me direct it is so mundane for other members to hear our grumps which really are not even important
Life is too short for all this
 

monica r. (41)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 10:14 pm
In the hopes that Kenny will stop beating the same poor dead horse, here goes:

I don't hate the nurse at school. We chat on occasion and I like her and we agree on a lot of things, and I don't hate the muslim teacher, he is also an awesome teacher and very nice to boot, and it was a pleasure to sub in his class (he left an awesome lesson plan and his students were well behaved and very engaged). We all share a strong sense of commitment to the kids we work with, who are at-risk kids.

I don't hate the people in the article who are getting executed. I don't hate the people involved who have no choice because Islam (shari'a) says they must die, and it's the law and they must follow it.

I most especially don't hate the true moderate muslims who actually call for reform, say immigrants should join the host culture, point out that it's racist to not hold islam/muslims to the same human rights standards everyone else is held to, fight FOR those human rights such as education of females, stopping FGM, opposing shari'a (eg stoning rape victims, hanging gays just for being gay, executing apostates, flogging or executing people who drink any amount of alcohol, etc). In fact since many of them are under death threats (fatwas) I pray fervently for their protection and safety.

I don't hate the shi'as who were massacred on their buses by the sunnis calling them kaffir and shouting allaahu akhbar, as well as quite a bit of whoo-hooo!-ing. I don't hate the other hundreds of muslim victims of sectarian violence who die at the hands of their co-religionists EVERY WEEK. I don't hate the victims of honor killings or acid attacks. I don't hate any muslims, particularly. I think there are few people in the world I could say I hate. I can't think of anyone right now. Not even people who have harmed me in the past.

Those are a few I can mention. You can find some of the moderates in a google search. I'm not going to tell you my colleagues' names to respect their privacy.

I apologize that I can't satisfy you on the count of telling you something positive about Islam, but having read the quran and studied the sunna, while there are INDIVIDUAL muslims I like and respect quite a lot, I can't name any redeeming quality of the ideology itself. The more I learn of it, the less I like it. It is not compatible with western democracy, does not adhere to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and is not compatible with the US Constitution. For me, human rights abuses based on shari'a are the real deal-breaker as far as Islam is concerned.

If in my continuing study I find a good thing about it, Kenneth will be the first to know, as I will be sure to email him about that immediately.
 

monica r. (41)
Wednesday July 4, 2012, 10:20 pm
Also, if Kenny could concede even ONE negative thing about Islam, I would think him less intellectually dishonest.

I won't ask him to name any Muslims he doesn't like cause obviously there aren't any. He loves every billion (or fraction thereof) of them unconditionally. He only dislikes people who can point out the downside of Islam, such as getting hanged or beheaded or whatever for drinking an alcoholic beverage. (Though what he has against these "criminals" that he won't speak out against the barbarism that makes it a capital offense for them, I couldn't say.)
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Thursday July 5, 2012, 4:39 am
Oh Marie, you got 'drawn into it' when you come onto a thread after 100 comments and continue to make crafty little innuendos and disguised snide remarks at me, nipping at my heels from the sidelines. And then cry foul if you're confronted about it.
Marie, it is NOT TRUE we were the 'best of friends"! EVER! You agree with someone on a thread and that makes you 'best of friends'? You have some whacked out idea of importance about agreeing or disagreeing with someone and green stars!
You did not make a 'spontaneous remark' about advocating for sterilization of some mentally retarded people on that thread. That is NOT TRUE. You made post after post advocating it, and giving all your reasons why it is good and necessary. as well as post after post rejecting every single thing I said opposing it. Do you actually want me to post the link?

Monica, why is it like pulling teeth to have anyone who isn't a hate-monger say anything good about Muslims? More SPECIFICALLY anything good about the Quran or Islam? I'm not 'beating the same dead horse', that's bullsh...t. I've asked the attack dog clique members two or three times, that's it!
AND THE SILENCE IS INDICATIVE.
Anyone idiot using kindergarten deductive reasoning can see if you think every single thing in the Quran or Islam is evil and bad, it's absolutely illogical that you 'like' any muslims because every muslim has Islam as their faith and the Koran as their beliefs!

Monica: "I won't ask him to name any Muslims he doesn't like cause obviously there aren't any". TOTALLY FALSE. TOTAL LIE. I don't like or condone ANY violent act of injustice by anyone, Muslim or non-muslim. .
"that he won't speak out against the barbarism that makes it a capital offense for them, I couldn't say." TOTALLY FALSE. TOTAL LIE! Where do you get this shit from? Somebody feeding it to you? I have stated a number of times I don't condone ANY injustice.
I've also said before and again now, it's nuts and wrong to sentence someone to death for drinking.









.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Thursday July 5, 2012, 4:52 am
I love the blow and bluster of words from Gillian and Rob and Jay about how good they are and how they are for human rights etc. LOL! Rob and Jay accuse Mary P. a Muslim, of being a 'paid Islamist propagandist'. Accusation. Extreme accusation. Human Right #11---Every person is innocent until proven guilty. When asked for prove Rob and Jay slink away and provide nothing. MARY P. IS A HUMAN BEING, A PERSON, WITH AS MUCH AND AS MANY RIGHTS AS ANY OTHER PERSON, INCLUDING GILLIAN AND ROB AND JAY AND THE OTHER ATTACK DOGS. She is not a generality of 'muslims' or 'defender of Islam' or any other shit, before being first and foremost a person with human rights!
You can tell a hate-monger who operates on the idea that some person is guilty until they prove themselves innocent.
For anyone knows, Mary P. may be a better person than Gillian or Rob and Jay or other other attack dog member. IT'S POSSIBLE! Does Gillian or Rob and Jay or Carola May or any other attack dog know any good things that Mary P. had done in her home town, or her community or her personal life, or in the past, or present? NO! THEY KNOW DICK! They pretend to know! THEY ATTACK HER AS SOME GENERALITY OF 'MUSLIMS'! Religious bigots in the extreme!
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Thursday July 5, 2012, 5:58 am
Monica you say you can't name any redeeming quality of Mohammedanism? And that you've studied the Koran?

If you had you'd have seen quite a few beneficial things it advocates. You don't think that advocating female infanticide's wrong is a positive thing? Or that married women having rights to own property or to have control over their own earnings is a positive thing? And those are just a few of the positive things that actually were promoted and insisted upon by Mohammed. In some ways he changed the society of his time for the better. And not liking the entirety of the religious tenets of Mohammedanism doesn't mean one can't acknowledge what it got right or at least what it got better as compared to what the status quo was at the time before it came along.

Anyone who's an inability to acknowledge that's as intellectually dishonest as anyone who refuses to concede the wrong things in the Koran.
 

Antonia Windham (6)
Thursday July 5, 2012, 6:58 am
Kenneth, it's easy to've mistaken one person's stats for another's - too many people in this place to remember all details about each!
 

marie tc (166)
Thursday July 5, 2012, 9:12 am
Well the majority of us should be very happy on this thread because whatever problems we may have other than health We can have a beer or a glass of wine We even have C2 where we can give our honest opinions without being arrested The ladies can where a bikini in the supermarket if they so wish we can not only own our own homes we can also own and run our own businesses We have our own bank accounts we can walk out on bad husbands and partners any time we are not happy we can even show our hair to whoever we like need I go on
These couple of books I am sure you have all read or seen the movies A Thousand Splendid Suns and the Kite Runner by Khaleed Hosseini had me in tears .
I hope the life can get much better for us all
 

marie tc (166)
Thursday July 5, 2012, 9:14 am
Sorry about the spelling mistake WEAR I am rushing to prepare dinner
 

Fennie Yap (0)
Wednesday July 18, 2012, 8:00 am
KK
 

Sandra S. (8)
Thursday August 2, 2012, 7:44 am
Tolerance of intolerance is cowardice.

I and my husband cannot return to his country. Why? Because we are both ex-Muslim atheists. In any Islamic country, either of these states of being are a 'moral crime' and, according to Islamists, should be punished by execution. At the very least, we would be imprisoned for not believing in any 'god' - especially & foremost the bloodthirsty Allah - if we go back to his Islamic country, with an Islamic government which literally forces conversion of those wishing to marry citizens of the country who are 'officially' Muslim. Just this year at least one gay atheist has been sentenced to 2 years in prison there. Not long after, an actual Muslim cleric was sentenced to 2 years in prison, simply for being the wrong kind of Muslim.

Islam & Islamists attack, abuse & execute not only non-Muslims, they attack, abuse & execute even their own. Any fool who is ignorant enough to defend any part of Islamic BS is an uneducated coward, pure & simple. Go to an Islamic country, even a so-called 'moderate' Muslim country - and stay, work & live there on a day to day basis for at least a couple of years. You will quickly learn that Islam & Muslims respect nobody's human rights. Their self-perceived, self-inflated rights trump everybody else's. Muslim & non-Muslim alike. Even in non-Islamic nations, Islamists use the very concepts they hate most - freedom of speech & freedom of religion - to stomp all over the human & constitutional rights of others, using these very rights they despise to further their own evil agenda. Wake the hell up. It is very easy to pick out the people who have never had the experience of living in an Islamic society because they truly have no idea what the hell they're talking about while acting as apologists for these religious psychopaths. There truly is no good in Islam, nothing redeeming whatsoever. Muslims who are good, moral, ethical people are so *in spite* of Islam, not because of it. They are the ones who cannot in good conscience follow Islam to the letter of shariah law. They are also very often the Muslims who are imprisoned, executed or slaughtered in the streets for their refusal to totally submit their lives to this hateful ideology. Muslims who are not running around slaughtering non-Muslims are actually acting against what the Quran teaches. The Muslims who are murdering people in the name of their psychopathic 'god' Allah & their pedophile 'prophet' Muhammad are the actual true Muslims. And they will tell you as much. Read your Quran, apologists, and fully digest it.
 

Abu Sajjad (6)
Thursday August 2, 2012, 2:36 pm
Sandra K. So you believe that intolerance against Muslims is a good thing and it is cowardly to allow them to live peacefully. But what if the same intolerance was employed against atheists? Religious people far outnumber you. Fortunately for you, Muslims are commanded to deal with atheists with the same kindness that one would show to one's elderly mother. You are quite safe from us, even if we are not safe from you and the thugs that might be inspired by the hate speech that is common on Care2 and the Zionist owned mass media.

I find it hard to believe these wars are just about stealing our oil and minerals; if that were the case then why spend so many millions of dollars attempting to besmirch our faith as well. You have already invaded Muslim lands, murdered millions of innocent civilians, installed your puppet governors and your fraudulent western banking systems and enslaved us with your debt based scams. Why do you now wish to deprive us of our religion? The only answer seems to be that you are not just greedy and selfish and murderous, you are also satanic and hate us being close to God (May He be glorified and exalted).

Do you not feel any remorse when I tell you that violence against Muslims is massively increasing and the vast majority of cases of violence are against our dear sisters because they are easily recognisable due to their modest dress and covering of their hair? Do you not feel even a little responsible?

When we look at the various events of history, there was a particular ideology that shared your extreme views and was notoriously intolerant of Jews, disabled people, darker skinned people and even those without classical Aryan looks. Have you guessed it yet? Are you not ashamed of yourself?

Truly you know nothing of Islam and never did. I guarantee you were never Muslims. You did not describe Islam at all. This is another game from professional propaganda. Had you described some atrocities f [fake] Muslim government there would be some truth in it but to say that there is no good in Islam is plain ridiculous. Even Gandhi, who was a Hindu could not have sang higher praise for our Holy Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa alih) and our Imams (alayhimus salaam). If you truly wish to damage the reputation of Islam, try something a little more believable; people are not as dumb as you think. Only a fool thinks everyone is also a fool.

If the country you lived in prior to Canada was oppressive then they were not observing Islam and therefore Islam was not to blame. It is a mistake to equate corrupt rulers of Muslim countries with Islam; there are only two or three countries that attempt to live according to Quran; governments are almost all now ruled by an evil oligarchy which has nothing to do with Islam; their ideology is the opposite in fact.

The Holy Quran is the best representation of Islam and you will not find any imperfection within it. You may enjoy games such as misquoting, mistranslation and taking tiny snippets out of context but anyone who studies Quran with the intention of understanding, rather than misunderstanding, will not find any imperfections whatsoever.

If you prefer to live in a hedonistic society where evils such as alcoholism, gambling and pornography are encouraged then you have the rest of the world in which to exist - why are you even complaining about not being allowed into Iran? Ask any addict if alcohol or gambling is a good thing and they will warn you against it and they should know. Many have tragic tales of losing their spouses, their children and homes and generally having a rotten time.

I am very glad that Iran does not permit itself to be polluted with the same evils that every other country suffers. Even as a Muslim inshallah and lover of the Ahlul Bayt (alayhimus salaam), I am not permitted to live in Iran; they are very particular with who they allow in their country and I support their decision even though I would dearly love to live there over any other country in the world.

Clearly it is not a community for just anyone; unless one is a devout Muslim or a devout Christian/Jew, you would probably not enjoy living there. And no one is forcing you to live there. So what is the problem?

The people of the Islamic Republic of Iran do not wish their society to fall foul of the same debauchery of the west and I applaud their collective decision. Their republic is truly one created by the wishes of the people; it is the result of a fairly recent revolution where the people even voted for an Islamic government with the life's blood of their dear ones. May God reward them generously for their ultimate sacrifice. Unarmed demonstrators confronted the Shah’s US-trained and equipped army, which, upon the command to shoot to kill, slaughtered not less than 15,000 people in the space of a few days. Imam Khomeini lost his own son when he was martyred by the SAVAK. You think after paying such a high price for Islamic government, that they are prepared to let it slide away from them by inviting everyone and anyone into their country? Fortunately they are not so dumb.

I wish I could live there but I understand why these people do not want just anyone to live in their community; if they allow anyone in, soon it would not be any different to any other western country (God forbid) and that would be a great loss to pious and religious people everywhere. It is one of very few places in the world where the obvious effects of hedonism and corruption have been largely expelled. May God bless all sincere Muslims for their attempts to protect their children and their communities from evils and may we be successful in enjoining what is good and forbidding what is evil insha'Allah, ameen.

All countries can decide upon their rules and choose who they allow among them; who is to say that Canada has found the perfect system? I am sure that Canadians would not allow me to live among them so easily. Why not be mature and celebrate the fact that we are not all the same and allow Iranians to live according to Islam if that is what the majority of them wish? They are among the most peaceful countries in the world. They haven't aggressed for many centuries, unlike some countries who are making a habit of it and are always in someone else's country and duping their people with lies so they will fight. Still no WMD's and still no evidence of any attempts to make nukes. Even if Iranians did wish to make nuclear weapons, which they don't because they are by nature, indescriminent and therefore un-Islamic, what is the problem with that? Many countries have nuclear weapons. Many of them are not trustworthy at all; the Zionist entity was born by a war using 50,000 British troops in 1948 and has started several wars including the ongoing war against an unarmed Palestine, who were entirely without any army or many civilian small arms and are even to this day, still an occupied country under a racist regime. I would be more concerned about that self-confessed 'Mad dog' state that possesses at least 300 nukes and are threatening us all; they even boasted they could nuke Italy with a missile launched from usurped Palestinian land.

In Iran, the people have attempted to take their lifestyle from the Holy Quran and Islamic Teachings. In order to protect the freedom of the majority to live their faith, according to their wishes; they have outlawed certain harmful activities such as drinking, gambling, adultery and drugs. All countries agree that freedom to rape and murder is not freedom to the victims of it and they have forbidden such transgressions - similarly, freedom to get drunk in public and engage in the inevitable crime wave it foments, infringes upon the majority of people's freedom to live in a pleasant and pious environment without the enormous burden and dangers of alcoholism in society and the countless crimes associated with it. Drunk-driving alone should be reason enough to ban alcohol - what about mother's freedom to raise her daughter safely without some repeat offending drunkard mounting the pavement and depriving us of such a treasure.

None of us want to share our communities with murderers so we lock them up. Muslims have superior wisdom (from God) and as regards alcohol and gambling (among other verses mentioned above), God says; 'their sinfulness outweighs their profit' (Al-Baqarah 2:219). This is wisdom from Quran and I defy anyone to prove that this verse is not perfect wisdom. So why can't the Iranians decide it is best to make it an illegal crime with appropriate punishments? One doesn't have to live in Iran and if one is born there then one doesn't have to stay. It is only illegal for Muslims to drink alcohol; Christians and Jews do not have any such requirement under the law but they must respect the religious atmosphere and not transgress in public; this is common decency although in the UK late on a Friday and Saturday night, town and city centres are flooded with degrading and unholy scenes of drunkenness, urine and vomit.

A Muslim is only a Muslim because they choose a more pious life for themselves. Leaving Islam is a huge mistake but not one that is punishable by man. This is clearly provable by several verses from Quran that I am only too happy to post for any who are unfamiliar with Islam or doubt my word. Apostasy can also mean treasonous activities against a secular government and for this, the punishment is often death in many western countries. Here is what the dictionary says in addition to leaving a religion;

"Apostasy: late 14c., from L. apostasia, from later Gk. apostasia, from apostasis "revolt, defection," lit. "a standing off" (see apostate). General (non-religious) sense is attested from 1570s."
(http://dictionary.reference.com)

Why not respect the rights of other country's choices to protect their communities from obvious harm? No wonder they do not want people like you among them. I personally do not want someone like you in my home and I have a right to prevent you from entering. Inside my home, I am the boss and my views happen to represent the majority (no objections as yet from the resident spiders). Iranian people collectively wish to live in a religious environment - is the world not big enough for you that you wish to inflict yourself on this relatively small religious community against their wishes and then bring harmful habits to society and influential children? I don't go to a rock concert and then complain that the music is too loud and I cannot even hear myself pray - why then do you wish to complain that a religious community are unwilling to invite an atheist to live among them?

So you are not welcome by the Iranian people, as is their choice; perhaps you should just work on quietly getting over it. They prefer not to allow public alcoholism and I agree entirely with all the verdicts of Islam that are within the Holy Quran. If you don't like Islam then why not quietly enjoy your life in secular Canada? The term 'live and let live' springs immediately to mind. Islam has several similar ayahs about such freedom but it advises those who cannot live in a hedonistic society to move to one which is better; surely the reverse is true as well. If Iran is not hedonistic enough for you, simply stay in the west and we are all happy with that, God willing.

Take a look at your statistics for domestic violence and rape and compare them to the rest of the world. All I am saying is that perhaps Canada has not solved all of humanities problems yet and has room for improvement.

The Holy Bible, in Mathew 7:3 says "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

Why not help clean up and improve your own society instead of hating on Iran and Muslims? Even if one is not religious, the wisdom in this Biblical verse above is obvious. Iranian Muslims are making a huge effort and have sacrificed much to safeguard and maintain a pious and pure society where Muslims are safe and free of constant external temptations and calamities caused by harmful intoxicants and addictions. There are few people that haven't been touched by the misery of a dear one who has fallen to these temptations and is suffering as a result. Why do you insist that no society on Earth should ever be free of such dangers?
 

Rob and Jay B. (122)
Friday August 3, 2012, 8:45 am
Abu S, you are incredible with your fantasies about kind tolerant Islam. When and where has that ever been? Islam saying to treat atheists with love and tolerance? Where does it say that in the Qur'an that hasn't been abrogated? Where does the Qur'an say anything tolerant about non-Muslims in the Medina abrogation of Meccan verses when Mohammed started murdering, robbing, molesting little girls, raping captive women, ownning/trading sex slaves, taking another man's wife he lusted after, robbing caravans, having a harem of 'wives' and all with Allah's good-old-boy wink, nod and approval? This is debauchery and ungodliness in any decent person's eyes.

You have the gall to say: "You have already invaded Muslim lands, murdered millions of innocent civilians, installed your puppet governors and your fraudulent western banking systems and enslaved us with your debt based scams. Why do you now wish to deprive us of our religion? The only answer seems to be that you are not just greedy and selfish and murderous..."

You have just described perfectly the Muslim invasion and conquest of all the lands it now rules - it is estimated that 270million people have been murdered by Islam in the past 1400 years of its trying to conquer the world, establish the new Caliphate and force us all to live under your barbaric, intolerant Sharia law "so that all religion will be for Allah".

The only 'tolerance' Islam has ever shown to any non-Muslim groups is by 'allowing' Jews and Christians to keep their faiths, but they must live in humiliation under Islam's arrogant thumb, pay the non-Muslim tax, wear certain clothes, not show their religions in public in any way, all men forced to be circumcised, all questioning or criticism of Islam is death but Judaism and Christianity are freely ridiculed and demeaned, Jesus of the Gospels (not that demeaning version Mohammed made up) is blasphemed in your Qur'an and all the Bible that contradicts what mohammed made up in the Qur'an is thus classed as 'corrupt' instead of the other way around. All other non-Muslims had the tolerant right to convert or die, as 80million Indians did (die that is) when peaceful tolerant Islam invaded, destroyed and colonized that sad land.

It is hard to believe you've ever read the Qur'an and hadith in a language you understand. How can a decent good person read this tome of hate, violence, intolerance, fire and brimstone wrath, a god that condones his mouthpiece raping captive women, murdering people, stealing their goods (booty - Allah happily tells Mo to help himself - that's theft), banditry, and even tells this Perfect Man that he is exempt from all the commands that all the rest of the Muslims are supposed to follow. How convenient. And you believe this stuff? You must have a very good way to turn a blind eye to all the ugly ungodly stuff in there - which is most of it.

Are you going to renounce Mohammed's commands to kill those who question, criticize or leave Islam, and gay people? You'll cleverly sidestep this, as all your co-religionists always do. You think no one notices?

Are you going to renounce The Reliance of the Traveller, the prime Islamic text of jurisprudence which has a lot of evil, hate and killing to command you loving Muslims to do?

w59.2‘And this clarifies
the Koranic verses and hadiths about hatred for
the sake of Allah and love for the sake of Allah,
being unyielding towards the unbelievers, hard
against them, and detesting them, while accepting
the destiny of Allah Most High insofar as it is the
decree of Allah Mighty and Majestic’

o9.0:"Jihad means to war against non-Muslims."

o1.2 The following are not subject to retaliation:
-2- a Muslim for killing a non-Muslim
-3 killing an apostate from Islam
-4- a father or mother (or their fathers of mothers) fir killing their offspring, or offspring's offspring (you so-called 'honor murders')

You call this good? Godly? What kind of god would command such sickness?

Are you going to renounce the great Muslim Ishaq too?
'Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 327: - “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”

Q 15:9 says "We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)." That is the qur'an. So if even one word is false, missing, changed it is all a lie.

'Ibn Abi Dawud, Kitab al-Masahif—Many (of the passages) of the Qur’an that were sent down were known by those who died on the day of Yamama . . . but they were not known (by those who) survived them, nor were they written down, nor had Abu Bakr, Umar or Uthman (by that time) collected the Qur’an, nor were they found with even one (person) after them.' (Bukhari vol.6 book 61 no.509 p.477-478)

The Qur’an could be recited in up to seven different ways. Bukhari vol.6 book 61 chapter 5 vol.6 book 61 no.513-514 p.481-482

'Abu Bakr decided that it was time to gather what remained of the Qur’an in order to prevent more from being lost, and he appointed Zaid ibn Thabit to this task. After Zaid completed his codex around 634 AD, it remained in Abu Bakr’s possession until his death, when it was passed on to Caliph Umar. When Umar died, it was given to Hafsa, a widow of Muhammad. (For a fuller account see Sahih al-Bukhari 4986.)

During Caliph Uthman’s reign, approximately 19 years after the death of Muhammad, disputes arose concerning the correct recitation of the Qur’an. Uthman ordered that Hafsa’s copy of the Qur’an, along with all known textual materials, should be gathered together so that an official version might be compiled. Zaid ibn Thabit, Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Sa’id bin Al-As, and Abdur-Rahman bin Harith worked diligently to construct a revised text of the Qur’an. When it was finished, “Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur’anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt” (Sahih al-Bukhari 4987/Bukhari vol.6 book 61 no.510,511 p.479-480). The Qur’an we have today is descended from the Uthmanic codex.

Muhammad once told his followers to “Learn the recitation of the Qur’an from four: from Abdullah bin Masud—he started with him—Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa, Mu’adh bin Jabal and Ubai bin Ka’b” (Sahih al-Bukhari 3808/Bukhari vol.6 book 61 no.515 p.483 vol.6 book 61 no.525 p.488). Interestingly, Ibn Masud (first on Muhammad’s list) held that the Qur’an should only have 111 chapters (today’s version has 114 chapters), and that chapters 1, 113, and 114 shouldn’t have been included in the Qur’an.

Because of this (along with hundreds of other textual differences), Ibn Masud went so far as to call the final edition of the Qur’an a deception! He said, “The people have been guilty of deceit in the reading of the Qur’an. I like it better to read according to the recitation of him [i.e. Muhammad] whom I love more than that of Zayd Ibn Thabit” (Ibn Sa’d, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Vol. 2, p. 444).

Ibn Masud advised Muslims to reject Zaid’s Qur’an and to keep their own versions—even to hide them so that they wouldn’t be confiscated by the government! He said:


Jami at-Tirmidhi 3104—“O you Muslim people! Avoid copying the Mushaf and recitation of this man. By Allah! When I accepted Islam he was but in the loins of a disbelieving man”—meaning Zaid bin Thabit—and it was regarding this that Abdullah bin Mas’ud said: “O people of Al-Iraq! Keep the Musahif that are with you, and conceal them.”

But Ibn Masud wasn’t the only one of Muhammad’s trusted teachers who disagreed with Zaid’s Qur’an. Ubayy ibn Ka’b was Muhammad’s best reciter and one of the only Muslims to collect the materials of the Qur’an during Muhammad’s lifetime. Yet Ibn Ka’b believed that Zaid’s Qur’an was missing two chapters! Later Muslims were therefore forced to reject some of Ibn Ka’b’s recitation:

Sahih al-Bukhari 5005—Umar said, “Ubayy was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur’an), yet we leave some of what he recites.” Ubayy says, “I have taken it from the mouth of Allah’s Messenger and will not leave it for anything whatever.”

When Ibn Umar—son of the second Muslim caliph—heard people declaring that they knew the entire Qur’an, he said to them: “Let none of you say, ‘I have learned the whole of the Koran,’ for how does he know what the whole of it is, when much of it has disappeared? Let him rather say, ‘I have learned what is extant thereof’” (Abu Ubaid, Kitab Fada’il-al-Qur’an).

Abu Ubaid, Kitab Fada’il-al-Qur’an—A’isha . . . said, “Surat al-Ahzab (xxxiii) used to be recited in the time of the Prophet with two hundred verses, but when Uthman wrote out the codices he was unable to procure more of it than there is in it today [i.e. 73 verses].”

Sunan ibn Majah 1944—It was narrated that Aishah said: “The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.” (Allah couldn't even stop a sheep from eating part of the Qur'an?! LOL)

In Surah 2:238 the phrase to do with Salat Al-Asr is missing (Jami at-Tirmidhi 2982)

Where has Allah, the ancient Arab pagan chief deity, the Moon God (hence Islam's Crescent Moon and Star - Allah's wife), been, if he exists at all? He promised, according to Mohammed, that the Qur'an would all be kept perfect. It has not, by Islam's own leaders and historians.

It's all a big fraud and Muslims are the first victims of it.

You should honor your murdered ancestors, forced to join this cult of hate and death, and leave it.

We've already told you about the origins of your Satanic deity, Allah and Mohammed's not knowing the name of the God of Abraham (funny Allah didn't know it either, don't you think? If he even existed at all), and how Mohammed called his new god 3 different names before he reached agreement with the Arab pagans in Meccah to use the name Allah. Allah is not the name for god, it is the name OF A god. Your current Ramadan is taken right out of the pagan rituals honoring their Moon deity, Allah. Thus the lunar month. And most of your other rites and rituals are right out of ancient paganism - the hajj, praying toward the black meteor in the Kabaa (worshipped and adored by the pagans), circumabulating the Kabaa, and so much more.

BTW, you Muslims are great at ridiculing western banking and interest payments, but you never stop to think where your Islamic banks make their money? They don't loan money for free. They charge you just like western banks, they just don't call it interest, but it is the exact same thing. Wise up! Come out of this mind shackling cult of death and be free.

Islam produces nothing and Islamic countries produce nothing but religion and oppression. 1.5billion Muslims and only a measely 10 Nobel Prizes at most and only 1 or 2 for scientific achievement, yet the Jews with only 14million have earned 182!!! Most for science. Why? Because Judaism doesn't shackle the imagination, the mind. Start thinking for yourself.
 

Alexa R. (331)
Friday August 3, 2012, 10:19 am
Sandra K: "Muslims who are good, moral, ethical people are so *in spite* of Islam, not because of it. They are the ones who cannot in good conscience follow Islam to the letter of shariah law. They are also very often the Muslims who are imprisoned, executed or slaughtered in the streets for their refusal to totally submit their lives to this hateful ideology. "

Thanks for sharing Sandra. I know many of these good Muslims and their children (I'm a teacher), some of them escaped their country as asylum seekers, many were born outside of Islamic governance, some still live under Sharia Law in Islamic countries.

I would love to see around 80% of Sharia Law outlawed globally.
 

pam w. (191)
Friday August 3, 2012, 10:20 am
Scanning through these comments demonstrates a firm commitment to the rules for "defending" Islam. You'll see they've all been put to use.

1. Deny, deflect, deny

2. Insult the questioner or the person criticizing Islam

3. When all else fails, blame someone else....usually Jews/Zionists but sometimes lately, the U.S.

All of this reminds me of nothing as much as Christopher Hitchens

"RELIGION POISONS EVERYTHING"
 

Ge M. (216)
Friday August 3, 2012, 11:23 am
Actually Rob/Jay what Abu S actually says is that Islam knows best how people should behave. "Muslims have superior wisdom (from God)"

Islam was started by an untrustworthy, hedonistic, self serving, sex mad paedophile who stole large chunks of religion and stories from Judaism and Christianity to try and prop up his demands, I understand that he died of syphilis. Allah is a moon god, as shown by the crescent moon symbol, one of 650 gods. Allah bears no relationship to the true G-d so how can you claim that Muslims have superior wisdom from G-d when your religion has nothing to do with any real one?
 

Phyllis Baxter (40)
Friday August 3, 2012, 5:26 pm
What a cr*p ideology! So sick of hearing about their atrocities and opressive rules against being human,
 

patrica and edw jones (190)
Friday August 3, 2012, 10:04 pm
Kenneth L - you are your usual radical, outrageous, hedonistic self. If Christ Himself were to offer proof that Mary Pee is an Islamist propagandist - you would not believe Him. For those who do not believe - no proof is possible and for those that do then no proof is necessary. You bluster and cudgel your way through these posts without the slightest inclination to bring worthy comments to it.
Abu Sajjad - May your God go with you - whomever HE is. Thanks for the post Rob and Jay.
 

Ge M. (216)
Saturday August 4, 2012, 10:33 am
Patricia/edw there is no point in trying to have a discussion with Kenneth, he only knows how to be abusive to people. If you actually look at one of his comments all he does is insult and be rude. There is nothing of substance, no information, no source, no reasoned comment (joke, he can't reason) or anything to latch onto to respond to.

The bottom line is he is an insensitive rude bore and bully. I will be insulting some South African men but all of the abusive men(partners) that I have come across, heard about or worked with are South African. They are unable to have a proper relationship, are all about control, abuse, insult, ignore the law, spend their income on themselves and deny their family basics. Ignore him, he is a waste of time and space & I have no doubt that many people agree with that.
 

Tommy S. (11)
Sunday August 5, 2012, 12:15 am
@ Abu Sajjad
Quote...Now dear Tommy, can you please tell us where you found this nonsense. Also you left out any reference to the capitalised part where you wrote "THOSE WHO HAVE EMBRACED ISLAM and THEN BECOME APOSTATES SHOULD BE KILLED"....Unquote

Found it on what you generally call a hate oops sorry islamic-site
Incidentally are you gay-I only ask as you refer to me as "Dear"
big mooee

From one of the most recognised sites advising millions
Al-Irtidaad (to renegade from Islam)
The religion of Islam is the most perfect and complete religion. The laws of Islam are flawlessly designed by Allah.
These laws of Islam are for the benefit and of mankind.
Islam induces unity and always condemns division and sects.
Once a person accepts Islam, he sees its beauty and perfection. If after seeing the beauty of Islam, a Muslim turns away
from it, it means he turned away from perfection towards imperfection, disassociating himself from the unity of the
Muslims ummah towards a way that is unacceptable by Allah.
Allah always wishes good for His servants. By one accepting Islam, he will be Insha Allah entitled to paradise.
However, after accepting Islam, one turns renegade, it means he has become entitled to Jahannam (Hell). This is not
what Allah wishes for His servants. To prevent more people from becoming true candidates of the fire of Hell, Allah
legislated a deterrent for it, i.e. the law of execution.
This law of executing the renegade is a unanimously accepted rule according to all Muslims.
Al-Hadith
Sayyiduna Ibn Abbaas radhi allahu anhuma says: Nabi sallalahu alayhi wasallam said "Execute the one who renegades
from his Deen." (Sahih al-Bukhariy Hadith6299, Sunan al-Nasaa’iy Hadith4059 edited by Shaikh Abdul Fattah Abu
Ghuddah)
Sayyiduna ‘Uthmaan radhiyallahu anhu narrates hearing Nabi Sallallahu alayhi wa sallam as saying "……The one who
changes his religion after accepting Islam must be executed." (Sunan al-Nasaa’iy Hadith4057 edited by Shaikh Abdul
Fattah Abu Ghuddah)
Sayyiduna Abdullah radhiallahu anhu narrates Nabi Sallallahu alayhi wa sallam as saying "It is not Halaal to kill a
Muslim except for 3 reason: …no.3.The one that turns away from his Deen, thereby disassociating himself from the
group of Muslims."(Sahih Muslim Hadith4351 edited by Shaikh Khalil ma’moon Sheeha)
Ijma’
The one who renegades from Islam must be executed is the unanimous verdict of the sahaaba, none of them rejected it.
The unanimity of the Sahaaba on an issue is conclusive evidence of the same.
The Fuqaha (Jurists)
All the 4 Mazhabs are unanimous that a renegade must be executed if he does not revert to Islam. Hereunder are
classical texts from each of the 4 Mazhabs:
Al-Hanafiyyah
Imam al-Marghinaaniy says: "If a Muslim, may Allah forbid turns away from Islam, the religion of Islam should be
presented to him. If he has any doubts they should be cleared…and he should be kept under supervision for 3 days. If he
reverts to Islam, he must be set free, otherwise he should be executed. (Al-Hidaya) Allamah Ibn ‘Aabideen says: "Note
well! It is unanimous that a renegade from Islam must be executed" (Rasaa’il Ibn Aabideen)
Al-Maalikiyyah
Imam Maalik says: "The one who renegades from Islam to another religion and exposes it will be asked to repent from
his action. If he does not repent, he must be executed." (Al-Mu’atta lil Imam Maalik)
Al-shaafi’iyyah
Imam al-Shaafi’iy says: "One who renegades from Islam will not be left alone, either he reverts to Islam or he will be
executed." (Kitab al-Umm)
Al-Hanaabilah
Allamah Ibn Qudaama al-Hanbaliy says: "All the scholars are unanimous that a renegade must be executed." (Al-Mughniy with Sharh al-Kabir Vol.10 Pg.74 Dar al-Kutub al-Ilmiyyah Beirut)
From the above it is explicitly clear that there is no leeway in the religion of Islam regarding executing a renegade from
Islam.
and another
"THOSE WHO HAVE EMBRACED ISLAM and THEN BECOME APOSTATES SHOULD BE KILLED".
First and foremost, an apostate is killed simply because it is an order of the
Sharī’ah. We do not have any authority in questioning the law of Allah. Allah
Ta’ālā is the All-Wise. The wisdom and benefits behind His every ruling are
unfathomable by our feeble minds.
 

Tommy S. (11)
Sunday August 5, 2012, 2:17 am
quote...Two people who committed the offence of consuming alcohol for the third time have been sentenced to be executed,...Unquote

Incorrect punishment under hadith
Abu Dawud Book 38, Number 4469:

Narrated AbuHurayrah:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If he is intoxicated, flog him; again if he is intoxicated, flog him; again if he is intoxicated, flog him if he does it again a fourth time, kill him.

AbuDawud said: And there is a similar tradition of Umar ibn AbuSalamah, from his father, on the authority of AbuHurayrah, from the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him): If he drinks wine, flog him if he does it so again, a fourth time, kill him.

 

Tommy S. (11)
Sunday August 5, 2012, 2:55 am
@ Abu Sajjad

You quoted from "In the shade of the Koran"
Islam makes peace as the normal relationship between Muslims and Non-Muslims. This relationship is not distracted except with an aggression that must be dealt with a breaching of truce, an obstacle in the face of delivering the message of Islam, shackling the freedom of religion.etc etc.

Notice it is almost identical to sura 5:33
NQ The recompense of those who wage war against Allâh and His Messenger and
do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their
hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the
land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the
Hereafter.
Hardly a peaceable statement

Sayyid qutb lso said
The Jews have tried, with the help of the `asses’ from among the Christians they (sok vol 5 p118)
used, to spread atheism among the nations which professed to follow the Islamic faith.
and
This facilitates what the Zionist Jews see as the manipulation of
the `asses’, to use the expression as contained within the Talmud and the Protocols of
the Elders of Zion.(my comment -- the Protocols-- a work of fiction)

and he also believed the koran was created

and that islam was a mix of communism and Christianity

even knowledgeable Sheiks said
" As for the tafsir of Sayyid Qutb – may Allaah have mercy upon him – then it contains great calamities, however we hope that Allaah pardons him
 
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