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Beating Babies in the Name of Jesus?


Society & Culture  (tags: abuse, americans, child, children, corruption, crime, culture, death, dishonesty, education, family, law, police, politics, religion, safety, society )

Kit
- 1015 days ago - alternet.org
We all have issues that inflame or engender passion within us. The issue of beating or even hitting children and animals is top on my list. Those who must "hit" to teach do not deserve the right to have children or pets.



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Comments

Kit B. (277)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 9:03 am

I really hope no one steps forward to defend any part of this article. Does it name names? You bet, and if you live under a rock you may not have read or heard about this before. Teaching a child or a pet discipline and respect has nothing to do with hitting that being. It's a lousy excuse for adults without temper control. Those who encourage this brutal treatment of children and animals should be jailed. There is nothing "godly" about inflicting pain on another human being, most particularly those who cannot fight back.
 

wolfNoFwdsPls a. (135)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 9:03 am
> Those who must "hit" to teach do not deserve the right to have children or pets.
D'ACCORD! -- Much unfortuntely, it is all-too-often exactly people of this character-type, who (believe they) 'need'/want some subordinate
--
duplicate of http://www.care2.com/news/member/282863992/3013705
(excelt for the ?page=entire in title)
 

lee e. (114)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 9:17 am
Don't get me started! I get so ticked by mythologists in general and the extremists within them in particular - I'm glad you posted this - hope those evangelistas read it - maybe adopt some of the "jesus" ideas into their lives somewhere - how do they go for home schooling anyway? Is it just to oppose science and human intelligence? I guess that's another topic - we're just into baby beating in the name of jesus here!
 

Kit B. (277)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 9:21 am

Although Lee, home schooling does help protect the abusers from the sight of that abused and beaten child in a public school. So far, I have met a number of "homeschoolers" and to date not one has the training nor qualifications for teaching, which is a profession.
 

Kit B. (277)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 9:27 am

wolf a - I submit the story and either Care2 allows it or blocks it because it has been submitted. I don't intentionally resubmit a story however, stories like this can not have enough attention.
 

Val R. (236)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 9:33 am
Just makes me sick - I agree - not person or animal should ever be beat in the name of anything - thanks for posting Kit -
 

Susanne R. (249)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 9:46 am
When a child's behavior is controlled by having severe pain inflicted on them when they misbehave, what are they really learning? Do two wrongs make a right? And how can a parent who loves their child even go through the motions of physically harming them? The ritual spanking of infants is insane! They have no way of communicating their needs other than to cry. By controlling your child's behavior through violent means, you're teaching them that they need to be weak and submissive in order to survive OR that it's okay for them to do the same in order to control the behavior of others. I see no redeeming value in these techniques other than to add more damaged people to a society that's already has more than it needs.

Great post, Kit. I hope that if anyone who uses such techniques to control the behavior of their children or pets reads this post, they'll start to think twice about what they're doing. If they can't put a stop to such cruelty out of remorse, maybe they should consider the fact that one day the children they've been beating while young and defenseless might be caring for them and making decisions on their behalf when THEY'RE old and defenseless.
 

Kit B. (277)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 10:07 am

Well said Susanne. Lately we have seen an increase in lousy, cruel and self centered behaviors in the name of religion. It may be religion that teaches this crap but, it is not in any belief system either peaceful or loving.

Some day that precious child that you are hurting may be taken. Hold close what you hold dear.
 

Surunatik WTF (38)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 10:43 am
I never would have survived, bad enough as it was. We need to make a Big Noise about this, This Needs to go Viral! Consider that many/most have no idea that in the in the name of JeezUS Cripes this is practiced. Those insane hypocrites. Why aren't those who stand for rational religious practice calling this out, helping to expose it. These monsters should be prosecuted, with the same mercy they mete out. Aside from the fact that it reflects badly on them as associated with it as Christians, it is absolutely contrary to teachings. If someone said I don't mean to be repetitious, but, "... as you do unto the little ones, you do unto me."
 

Kamila A. (141)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 10:49 am
I think the video of the judge beating his 16 year old daughter with cerebral palsy went a long way to show how insane it is to teach children discipline by beating them with an object, over and over again and with the help of another adult......literally torture. Then, he is televised telling the interviewers, 7 years later, not only is he not remorseful, but annoyed and standing strong that they are questioning his motives. After all, she stole something.
This might still be unclear to certain people who defend their stance about the idea of beating as discipline, but I think the unsettling aspect of it will sit with these, so that they might be reminded to look harder into the mirror.
Beating, hitting, or any unkindness as "discipline" never works with children, nor with anyone, any animal or even with the self to effect positive change. Encouragement, boundaries, love, and time-outs with deprivations of privileges are the best motivators, even for grown-ups.
 

Kit B. (277)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 11:13 am

And let's not forget honesty. Just don't lie to the children, they will learn you lied and never again trust you. Then again - if you beat them why the hell should they trust you?
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 11:16 am
Why is it that some of the worst scum on earth, get away with their evil all in the name of their gods and their religion. Isn't this even more proof that all religions have no place in a civilized society?
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 11:25 am
Thank you, Kit for posting this. It is so important that everyone be aware of this evil.

Will Everyone Please Help Spread the Word?

 

Terrie Williams (768)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 11:37 am
And they wonder WHY so many people are turning away from religion, specifically Christanity, in droves?

Ummmmmmmmmmm.......THIS kind of sick, twisted, bastardized, warped, perverted interpretations and actions is a start. Anyone who would beat, spank, smack, switch or otherwise inflict pain and suffering on an INFANT or child or adolescent and/or any other living helpless being like a 12 pound DOG or even a MULE....I DON'T CARE what it is....It is Sadism. It is also an inferior person who cannot control their need to dominate or possess that which they never will...they ENJOY it. That is a demented, depraved creature that deserves neither children nor pets nor the obedience of any living thing to them.

Sorry peeps. This is one thing that pushes my buttons. I need to go calm down. This is a very upsetting topic for me.
 

Kit B. (277)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 11:54 am

Hey, it's good to get angry about this issue.

When I became a mother I made myself a solemn promise - no hitting. Some times I had to take a time out in my room to cool off. Sure, children can and do annoy, break rules and test you on each issue possible, it's their job. They're growing and learning, what they learn is up to the parents. They can learn real love or violence and any form of hitting is violence. I often hear, "that kid needs a smack on the butt" really? Why? Because the child is tired and frustrated, because the child is forced into dealing with the adult world and expected to behave as an adult? No, the child needs to be respected as a child, a growing human being, not a toy for adult entertainment and not for HITTING.
 

FreeSpirit Running (324)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 1:01 pm
Oh, yes I do have to comment on this subject ~ very close to my heart! TY Kit hon for sharing, this is sooo important!

No baby, child, elderly, or animal should endure any type of torture or needless violence especially when they cannot defend themselves! What a sick sick type of human you have to be to feel any type of pleasure from hurting others that cannot fight back! Damn, this is just so upsetting!

First, I do not believe in spanking, hitting, or slapping of any innocent, voiceless person or animal. I never spanked my son, he is homeschooled, but used to attend public school. I SPEAK to him...yes, I SPEAK to him...he deserved my respect and I recieve respect in return, what is so hard about that? There is no need for hurting an innocent baby,..those that do these type of things, well...what goes around will come around, I can assure you of that.

Thanks again Kit, always great posts my friend! You rock hon! We are their voice, We will speak for the babies, the animals, the elderly and the sick! We need to, they cannot!

In peace as always,
FreeSpirit
 

Marco C. (32)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 2:28 pm
Sounds completely consistent with their malignant theology and so I am not surprised. Let one of them raise a hand in my presence and they will most assuridly receive the surprise of their lifetime. Same goes for those that legalised bullying in Michigan, under the auspices of religious overtones. They haven't met my religion yet.
 

pam w. (191)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 3:27 pm
Deeply disturbing in so many ways. Of course, the god of genesis is nothing more than a nasty, abusive father figure. Set impossible rules and then punish severely when they're broken.......OHHHHH the fun of it!
 

. (0)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 3:28 pm
Omg, I could barely look at the photo or get through the whole article. Seriously disturbing.
I have had a friend raise a hand in front of me to their kid like a slap on the face, etc. I had to end that friendship. I have seen the parents of that poor kid since, and they are proud that he gave some kid a bloody nose on the first day of kindergarten! That kind of "discipline" only produces a bully. So sad.
 

Terry King (108)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 3:37 pm
Every year I have had less affection for Christians until now I like them not at all!
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 4:36 pm
Their agenda-- dumb them down and train them up--sick bastards.Thanks Kit.
 

Laurie S. (73)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 5:11 pm
Great post and good to spread around. Thanks!!
 

Janice P. (5)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 5:16 pm
I'm pretty sure that Jesus would heartily disapprove of beating childen or anything else in his name. Nothing about this practice is anything any rational person would do in the name of Jesus.
 

Sarah G. (110)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 5:37 pm
What a sick, sanctimonious mentality: the description of beating a small dog as though this were amusing and normal, and beating babies for imagined infractions-- revolting!
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 5:47 pm
I could not finish this article without the overwhelming urge to cry and vomit simultaneously. Will the law rise above organized child abuse cushioned in the name of religion? It better, or these helpless children in the USA will be as so many other religions in other countries which involve terrible abuse and oppression, and which we openly scorn, will suffer just as greatly. Let's not let this continue in the USA. These 'religions' need to be stopped now.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 5:47 pm
Good article Kit. I could hardly believe the little encounter between James Dobson and his dog, let alone how he then goes ahead and applies it to children! Must make him feel big, a 200 pounder vs. a 12 pounder or child. Adults are always using their size to control smaller bodied children.
Plus he actually says 'infants use reinforcement on their parents to get what they want". It's the other way around! Typical crap modern Psychology techniques to control children, behaviour modification etc.
There is a looooooong line going back through generations with parents using their religious dogma on their children who in turn when they become parents then act out the same crap on their children etc. etc. etc.
All that sfuff of 'God will punish you" or in this case 'the Bible tells me so, so I'll do it for him" etc. Beat the 'devil' out of someone etc.
Irational begets irational begets irational.
My mother would spank my little behind a few times, nothing worth mentioning, but added the humiliation of pulling my pants down while doing it.
When I was married I never used physical discipline whatsoever on my stepson. Just the very workable technique of taking away privileges for a certain period of time.
A person doesn't need any physical punishment.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 5:51 pm
BTW, using force on children isn't just done by people using religious dogma to justify it. it can be and is done by anyone, religious or non-religious..
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 5:53 pm
BTW Thank you for this article and as someone stated ...it needs to be viral!
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 5:57 pm
Also, I am not condoning ANY religion, in any country, state, county, town, home to use dogma to justify their sick need to oppress another person with cruelty. Religious or no assault with a weapon with intent to commit bodily harm is a crime. A crime against humanity, the soul, and the spirit. Unfortunately we can only lock them up for the physical and mental damage. Sorry for s omany posts but I am so outraged!
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 5:58 pm
The weapon being their hand, switch, ruler, etc.
 

Phyllis P. (422)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 6:03 pm
Saw this disturbing story yesterday. Some people will take any thing to an extreme. Noticed that these were mostly adopted children. Poor things, thinking that they finally had parents that loved them, but instead they were murdered. Good post, sad news.
 

Bette M. (91)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 6:05 pm
This so called judge is anything but a father.
He should not be a father much less than a judge.
He should be taken off the bench permanently.

Plant & protect Danny's trees for life.
Trees are the lungs of the earth.
 

Dany Strakova (119)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 6:36 pm
children don´t need to be treated like scum!!! it is horrible to think that the same had that cares, a few minutes later beats. How can they use the name of God for such cruelties!!! they are nuts!
 

Walter Firth (45)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 6:40 pm
Thanks for posting Kit,The video of that judge whipping his daughter has appeared on our T.V.What a man ,to think he sits in judgment on others.These reilgious whackos who advocate brutal teatment of children or animals are an abomination of Christianity.I don't think they will fare well in their death hour.Unfortunately while they are alive they give Christianity a bad name.
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 8:38 pm
'The Shady World of Right-Wing 'Discipline' Guides'.

Why hasn't anyone picked up on that? Isn't it the Right-Wing mentality that allows for this kind of abuse? The mentality that looks the other way is what keeps this in the 'Shady World'. Do you hear anyone on the 'Right' calling attention to this abuse?




 

Anna M. (112)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 9:01 pm
Children are beaten in the name of Jesus or Allah or another, murdered because they are albino in Tanzania, or "cursed" in Ethiopia, or sacrificed for "good luck" in Uganda, killed for being the wrong gender in India and other countries. It's all wrong and ignorant. The people who use this book To Train Up a Child and manipulate religion as an excuse to abuse and torture children are mentally ill and a danger to all the defenseless. Unfortunately, it's hard to believe this is going on in the United States at this moment, but it is.

I posted an article about the recent child abuse murder of Hanna Grace-Rose Williams by her adoptive family who followed the book To Train Up a Child

http://www.care2.com/news/member/525914819/2976893
 

Anna M. (112)
Wednesday November 9, 2011, 9:07 pm
I'm sorry that I mistyped Hana's name; my mistake.

I agree with Walter also about that awful judge!
 

Rose NoFWDSPLZ (273)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 12:12 am
Shocking !!! and what sort of jude
 

Rose NoFWDSPLZ (273)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 12:13 am
Judge I meant !
 

Bette M. (91)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 12:34 am
It does not matter who you are either.
The actrees Joan Crawford was brutal
towards her children & so was Bing Crosby.
So, even the so called rich & proper
are prone to live double lives with their children
in the way they privately treat them.

Plant & protect Danny's trees for life.
Trees are the lungs of the earth.
 

ewoud k. (73)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 2:41 am
One of the numerous things (some) religious people do saying they're obiding their religion (not only christians), whereas any religion teaches love, compassion, tenderness etc.

Just, as is so often the case when religion is used (mis-used), a way of explaining the unexplainable by invoking religion? Maybe this reference to religion can do when we're speaking about the beginning of the universe, but to explain and "justify" one's bad behaviour....

There's a lot going on behind closed doors & curtains, more than you can imagine, and in more places than you think possible. The only way to make this less frequent -it will take an awfull long time to end this completely, if this will ever be possible- is to bring it out in the open, and talk about it, so that victims will stop to blame themselves, and actors will (slowly maybe, but nevertheless) start thinking, and oveall opinion will grow against it. So thaks Kit for posting, and thanks Charlotte, for your post as well.

Just one thing that we shouldn't forget (and I'm aware of the fact that it's not an excuse, but merely an explanation): a big part (I don't know the exact percentage, but it's quite high) of child-molesters -and of child-abusers as well- are folks that were molested -abused- by their parents as well, not that it's hereditary conduct (would be too easy), but it's a form of copying, something thaught in early years. It sort of became "normal", a reflex. This is not, as I said, an excuse, but actors shouldn't be "just" punished, but also treated, and be looked upon more closely, as they're in a way victims too.

It's not given to everybody to abandon their elder-thaught "morals", how bad these morals might be.

Just have to go on spreading the word, and NEVER allow these kind of practises to become "normal" or even "accepted".
 

Ben Oscarsito (352)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 3:02 am
It's un-freaking-believable, that's what it is! Where I come from, beating a child is illegal since many years...
-of course!!

"...For 5 years, from 1979-1984, Sweden was unique in the industrialized world for having passed the first explicit ban on corporal punishment. To many of us, particularly those of us living in North America, this appears to have been a radical and, to some, intrusive legal development. However, from the Swedish perspective, the law was the logical conclusion of an evolutionary process that unfolded over a period of decades..."
http://www.nospank.net/durrant.htm
 

Rita B. (2)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 3:59 am
gross!!! :(
 

Andreia Capelo (15)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 4:15 am
Thanks for sharing!
 

. (0)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 4:37 am
Excellent post. Maybe it's my iimagination but the daily news seems to be more and more filled with stories of harm and even death to children. What is wrong with our society? This is not a right wing issue or even a religious issue although some pretty bad things are done in the name of religion. Yes one could also blame the econimy but I don't think that's the reason either. From what I've read, this seems to be a growing "modern day" issue not even experienced during the great depression.
 

. (0)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 4:38 am
economy
 

monica r. (41)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 5:11 am
Well, if you want to train a child the way you train a dog, you can do that, but you don't train a dog by hitting it. I got my mom's dog into her crate (and she did NOT want to go in it) by chucking some tasty food in there. When she went in again and settled in, she got petted, and more treats. You set a dog up for success, catch them doing it right and reward that. And yes, that also works for children. Rewarding good behavior reinforces it.

Anyone who beats an "angry" 6 month old should be jailed. A child that age doesn't even understand why you are hurting it. And my sister picked up both her kids any time they made a peep. Both are well-adjusted, intelligent, outgoing, and not a bit clingy or whiney, and the younger one is a fearless little tomboy.

I agree this needs a bright light to be shining on it. Get the word out or these people will never be stopped. I'm going to look for the books at the local Christian bookstore. If they have them, but won't remove them from inventory, then maybe some protests are in order.
 

Lilith Cohen (202)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 5:29 am
The posting picture says it all.
 

Rita White (55)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 5:32 am
beating a child for any reason is unacceptable
 

MarilynBusy WITHCHARITIES (259)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 6:07 am
So many crimes are committed and forgiven in the name of God.
THAT in itself is a crime, and God would not endorse it.
Thanks Ewoud, for leading me here, and Thanks to Kit for posting this.

Religion is godless and divisive.
If you doubt that, ask yourself..... what religion is God?
 

Jodie S. (121)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 6:23 am
It is tragic reading all these notes that are persecuting Christianity as a whole. How blind and naive you all are. I am Christian and I surely do not believe in beating anything. This is not how I was raised and not what Christianity promotes. A few wingnuts write and article or a book and you people are all over a whole faith. Christianity is not a religion either people. Learn what you are talking about before you blab garbage publicly!!! It is a belief system that is based on Jesus being the son of God, that is all. Maybe some of you hate mongers should look to religions such as Satanism for bad behaviour!!! Ewoud I now understand why you screen your friends for people who have faith, you sure wouldnt want anyone who is educated on the subject reading this crap!!!!!!!
 

Kit B. (277)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 6:38 am

Yes, this beating and abuse is passed along from one generation to another. Though it is heartbreaking and difficult to do, volunteer some of your time to a local 'abused woman's and children shelter' and see for yourself. As for the Christian element in this, read the books mentioned, take a look at who the authors are and how they use the religion to justify the abuse. Many years ago I read a part of one of Dobson's books, he suggested in that book to use a strong wooden spoon on the child, then the parent would not hurt their hand.

This is not new, the current excuse for abuse - the bible - has in more recent years become commonly acceptable. I would also counter that in most religions the teachings are in opposition to those described here, so let's put the blame where it belongs. Those authors who use religion, almost exclusively Christianity, use a belief system and turn it into a nasty, ugly excuse to cause pain and suffering.

If this were only about the current economy this would be about the increase in shaken baby syndrome, spiral fractures and infanticide - all currently rising in numbers, as they always do under extremely stressful economic upheaval. It is documented from the Great Depression and before that during times of great financial stress, children suffer from grave harm.

These books and others that are/have been published and reinforced by far too many religious leaders serve a different purpose. The hope to break the individuality of the child, to make that child think in terms of fear of daring to be different, of a being unique free-thinking person. People like that are a danger to religious dogma. These children are so easy to spot, not because of the bruises, rather because of their behavior. They are overly polite in public and will rarely speak of their home life. Obedient to a flaw.

"Spare the rod and spoil the child" I do agree, you will spoil (ruin) a child's life, destroy their potential for life. Unlike, meat or lettuce (etc) a child can not be spoiled by love and nurturing. When a baby cries it is using the only communication available to reach out to the caretakers. Picking up a crying baby does not ruin that child, it reinforces love.
 

Dominic Delarmente (33)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 6:41 am
I cannot add comment.all of the the above comments are all well said and true . i cound't add more.Thank you dear friend Kit for this issue..
 

Kit B. (277)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 6:50 am

Jodie, either you are just naive or stupid to the reality of this perversion of the bible to reinforce these brutal ideas. I know the bible and I know far too much about this issue. Your statements are proof that you didn't read, or just could not allow yourself to understand the article. This is factual and is being done in the name of god or jesus/both. So back off, and learn something about how your religion is being perverted before you condemn those who are trying to protect children from those who teach and encourage harm to others. This is NOT what Jesus would do. Yet, is being done in his name. The condemnation of Christianity comes from those who teach their "flock" to harm their children, not those who fight against such abominations.
 

Dan(iel)) M. (24)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 6:54 am
What a shameful story. But thanks for posting and bringing it to light.
I personally have very strong feeling against any individual that would knowingly put a child in harms way. Be it for religious or whatever reason.
All the posted comments speak to the wrongness of this and I agree with them.
Let's hope by exposing this it will be addressed.
 

Dominic Delarmente (33)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 7:05 am
Thank you Daniel you hit the right tune for this.Thanks again Kit
 

. (0)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 7:24 am
The sub-category of child abuse , as regards some religious teachings, is well taken. Much good has been and is done in the name of religion. Also much harm has been and is being done. Of course, it's not just child abuse. Take the suicide bombers for example.

The larger issue is harm to our children over and above that caused by some religious teaching. No, economic hardships, such as in the great depression, or our current economic crisis does not help explain our shift to increased harm to our children any more than some religious teachings do. .
 

Dee C. (214)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 7:26 am
Such child abuse is as old as religion itself (it is one of the main ways religion is propagated) and will be a problem as long as believers and their institutions are afforded privileges and exemptions to indoctrinate and otherwise abuse children..
These people should not be able to continue what they are doing..

As Carl Sagan wrote.."it is a demon-haunted world we live in and somewhere right now children are suffering because of religious superstitions..traditions and dogmas..

Personally.. I really don't really care what is behind anyone's rhyme or reason for abusing a child..It is wrong and it should be stopped..

Thanks Kit..
Sadly noted..
 

Lilith Cohen (202)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 7:33 am
Dee, one needs to understand the underlying causes before solutions can be implemented. We can't just waive a magic wand and proclaim that child abuse should be stopped.
 

Richard Zane Smith (86)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 7:37 am

Jodie, no you are not stupid...i would never accuse you of that.

But i do know the WRITER of this article and he was raised evangelical by a well known Christian leader and author (Francis Schaeffer)his father, who sold many books that are still treasured by many evangelicals today. Perhaps you will remember the book "How then shall we Live?" or the "L'abri Story" by Edith, his wife?

FRANK (their son) wrote a very fascinating expose on his upbringing in the evangelical world "Crazy for God"
He also KNOWS James Dobson personally and when Frank was evangelical, he was interviewed on "Focus On the Family"...I know because i heard it..and i was delighted (i was evangelical at the time as well)

The Christian premise is that children are born "steeped in sin". Discipline..."spare not the rod" discipline is an attempt to purge the child of their natural born "sin nature." this is foundational to Christian teaching and what "sinners" need to be "saved" from. "Train up a child in the way he should go and he will not depart from it."

I was disciplined myself sometimes brutally by a Christian dad who lost control. I had done something childish, i pinched a little clay animal that my little brother had made (yeah,it was mean stupid and childish)
My dad beat me so hard with his belt,holdin gone of my arms, yelling for me to stand up! that afterwards my mom asked him to apologize to me. He did ,but he broke something....I would obey...but...i would never again have a close trusting relationship with my dad...till now -he is weak, old and frail,desirous of my love.

Frank Schaeffer writes pretty bluntly...but its coming from experience of growing up in a missionary family in Huemoz Swizerland where his parents were daily busy saving people and keeping up an image, they often neglected their own children. sorry to go on an on...but this is the truth.
 

Kit B. (277)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 7:59 am

Truth of the authors background only reinforces the article. Further, I did not say that Jodie was herself stupid only speaking to the facts of the article in a way that belies stupidity of the facts. Very different statements.

We don't need a "magic wand" to know or understand that millions of children are suffering abuse everyday of their lives. This article addresses one cause or excuse for that abuse. Not every abuser is a religious zealot, not every religious parent adheres to these abhorrent practices, it is however, a growing phenomena that we as a society can and should address. We have known and turned our backs for too long, we must spend more time focused on our children and their well being and less time making excuses. Parents have certain rights, they do not have the right or excuse to harm or destroy the lives of their children. Teach religion if you must, or better yet, teach kindness, love of all humanity and teach it by example.
 

BarbCat SunshineLady (1639)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 9:32 am
I am Christian and I know for a FACT that JESUS would NEVER BEAT a CHILD NOR does HE AGREE with BEATING A CHILD IN HIS NAME!!!!!!!!!!!! That makes HIM VERY SAD and me too. JESUS IS LOVE JESUS IS GOOD JESUS IS THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD!!!!!!!!!!! I do NOT afree with using VIOLENCE to discipline a child, animal, older person.........VIOLENCE is giving in to TED The EVIL DOER or as he's more commonly KNOWN THE DEVIL...Thnx Kit for posting. :(
 

Jim Phillips (3208)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 9:42 am
Unbelievable and a very disturbing article about these people.
Certain that Christianity is not the only religion to do as this article says to babies and children.

Thanks for the posting of this story.
some very good comments above.

Ty, Kit.
.
 

Lilith Cohen (202)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 9:43 am
The point of the magic wand is that waving a magic wand or saying "I really don't really care what is behind anyone's rhyme or reason for abusing a child..It is wrong and it should be stopped" won't fix the problem.
 

BarbCat SunshineLady (1639)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 9:44 am
'I believe that children are our future lead them well and help find their way....show them all the beauty they posess inside!! Give them the simple things..... to make it easier... let the children's laughter remind us how it used to be...'
~Donna Summer~
 

Laura P. (24)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 10:01 am
sickening, disturbing and unbelievable.
 

Kathy Javens (104)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 10:21 am
Noted. I am not normally a violent person, but I would, right at this very moment, like to take a switch to all who would do this to a child. THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Yvonne F. (168)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 10:26 am
Horrible and totally unacceptable! This has to be stopped!
 

S.A. Gorman (52)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 11:01 am
My father is a fundamentalist Bible Baptist Christian Preacher. He could have written one of these books. My siblings and I used to compare the blood blisters left on our butts and the back of our thighs. My father said I had to be spanked every day because I had a strong will. And, yes, he believed discipline started as an infant.

The children in my family never uttered the word "no". There was no back-talk. You were told to do something once, and then you were spanked with a belt. Or you could be spanked without warning for an action that you didn't realize was a spanking offense.

A child who is abused and oppressed never learns to make decisions, never learns to draw boundaries, never learns to ask for help.

There is no escape from their physical and psychologically imposed prison, until they finally learn what love and acceptance feels like. Only then do they begin to unravel the truth of who they are and what they can become, if they can find the will to live.
 

Dandelion G. (385)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 11:08 am
So much for a loving, kind, caring, compassionate, and forgiving Jesus.

Give me an Athiest any day with the above practiced qualities than the hypocrites that do not follow the teaching of Christ but follow instead some other Human Beings say so.

And we wonder why these people are so gleeful for the Death Penalty, why they cheer when Ron Paul had mentioned well if you don't have medical insurance well tough too bad if it means you die, why they would let a woman die rather than allowing her a medical abortion, why they booed at the woman interviewer that asked the question at the debate about Mr. Cain's unwanted sexual advances and then cheered him, what sick message was that?

Do we wonder why we have people ripping others off in the Corporate world, the Banksters world. Even the Mafia went to Church each Sunday, asked forgiveness for their past weeks misdeeds no matter how brutal, and all is forgiven and then spent the next week doing the same thing over again. They are the ones quick enough to point out the Sharia Law and others who practice their religions that inflict pain and misery, but can't see it in their own lives. Hold the Mirror up and LOOK.

Shameful. How people live with themselves is beyond me. I have a hard time swatting a fly and will try to give it it's freedom whenever possible.
 

Dee C. (214)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 11:15 am
"The point of the magic wand is that waving a magic wand or saying "I really don't really care what is behind anyone's rhyme or reason for abusing a child..It is wrong and it should be stopped" won't fix the problem'

Yes..it was a very foolish point..One which I would have preferred to simply ignore..however.. let me be very clear in saying I do not care what the underlying causes are..There is NO EXCUSE for child abuse..
We don't need to understand the abusers..We only need to STOP them..I don't care what makes these abusers do what they do to children..I only care that they are charged with abuse..or that they stop having children..
 

Barbara W. (342)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 11:18 am
"They're not the only right-wing Christians who advocate these methods. Some of the most respected evangelical discipline gurus have made beating children not just "respectable" in conservative religious circles, but even turned it into a godly activity."

This is a sick sign of the times "We" live in.. It was the evangelical movement that backed war with Iraq and thought nothing of the children who were about to be sacrificed. In fact children being viewed as "Acceptable Collateral Damage" did not make a dent in their conscience.

I was so angry at this bogus idea coming from a powerful Christian movement that also had pernicious influence on GWB's White house. Cheney, Rumsfled, Pearl, Wolferwitz, etc., loved having this Christian movement behind their dastardly agenda's..

Thank you for this eye opening story Kit. Thank you Ewoud for bringing it to my attention..
 

Lilith Cohen (202)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 11:47 am
Thanks for clarifying what you were trying to say Dee.
 

David C. (29)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 12:25 pm
I talk to a right wing friend about this, this is what he said to me....

This is lies put about by the left wing that hate Christians, I know that no Christian that who would do this, as always you are being taken in by their lies.

I feel sad for him.
 

Marianna Moln?r Woods (9)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 12:26 pm
Jesus will bring real justice
 

Dan Cooper (6)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 12:30 pm
What an outrage.

If you are there on judgement day, here's what you will hear God say to the ones who abuse children in His name:

"Depart from me, I never knew you"

This is not of God, which begs the question if it's not of God, what is the source?

The vast majority of Christians would never do this to their children, though, so any real Christian is of course pissed off at the hijacking of their faith to promote evil-doing.
 

Kit B. (277)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 12:38 pm

I don't feel sad for your friend, there is world of reality he intentionally hides from. Ask him if he has ever heard of just the few mentioned in the article.

I am not a Christian, nor do I hate Christians. Were I Christian I would be furious about any one using Christianity, (or any form of religion) as vindication for these crimes against children or any living creature. We don't need a committee to study this, we all know right from wrong. Some where within each of us, exempting psycho paths, there is a true and certain knowing that hurting another is wrong.

We invoke long prison terms for many crimes, why should child abusers be singled out? A parents rights end when that hand, belt, whip or whatever is raised against a child.

We need absolute uncompromising laws that protect children. We also need to stop pretending that is just might not be real. We all know it is real, we know that horrible things happen to children by their parents.
 

Catherine Turley (198)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 12:41 pm
and whenever one of these videos slips out, you'll notice that the punisher is not calmly doling out discipline. he is usually cursing, yelling and acting impulsively. it is always about the parent's temper and lack of self control. and as i've said before, if your teenager is so out of control that you feel the need to beat them, you've already failed as a parent.
 

Brian M. (145)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 12:46 pm
Why otherwise rational, intelligent human beings need some mythical, magical, cosmic superman like Jesus boggles my mind. It makes me want to vomit. There is never any reason to beat babies. Likewise, there is no acceptable reason to believe in mythical beings like Jesus or God or Allah or any of the other LIES that the religious institutions try to dupe us into believing them. None of them will save us from climate change.
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 12:52 pm
This disgusting man is an animal and child abuser, I would say he is a pervert. Has he actually been done for animal cruelty, as he admitted to beating a tiny dog with a belt? What an absolute abomination of a so called human being? The book should be banned for a start.
 

Jen S. (108)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 12:53 pm
I will preface this by noting that I was raised by parents who did not hit-ever, though the Empress, my mother had a look that could freeze my blood at 100 feet. I survived to adulthood and did not become a serial killer, pontificating ideologue or Republican, though I would suggest I have more empathy for others than most of those. And more self-control.

Violence is never a solution to anything ; it is a perpetuation of a cycle, the genesis of an endless, accel;erating reiteration of the savagery. Moreover, it says far more about the abuser than it does about religion, and the victim's behavior. Religion isn't a justification-it is an excuse for an out-of-control coward who is incapable of amking a point, communicating clearly by any other means. Or simply a cold, callous idiot who needs the emotional release. That they hide behind what is a perverted version of Christianity is evidence of their own cowardice, testament to the failure of an abuser's intllect and self-control. That so many prosecutors exist who refuse to aggressively prosecute this behavior is even worse. The judge in Texas should be removed from the bench, prosecuted aggressively and be forced to live without the job that almost certainly reinforces his ego-it takes a pathetic specimen of humanity to beat a disabled child. Dobson and his ilk are dangerous in their arrogance; I'd certainly applaud if any of them were ever prosecuted as accessories.

 

Jen S. (108)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 12:54 pm
Obviously typing minus the reading glasses again.
 

kaisuorvokki m. (26)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 12:59 pm
Beating babies, toddlers and puppies? No sense. However, children and teenagers need discipline and when a child or teen bullies, harasses people - victim´s age is no excuse - or does some serious crime, I think patting to the head is not good thing.
 

. (0)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 1:26 pm
Sharee, thanks for sharing your story.

Monica, "I'm going to look for the books at the local Christian bookstore. If they have them, but won't remove them from inventory, then maybe some protests are in order." Excellent idea!

David, show your friend the books and have them read Sharee's story.


 

Past Member (0)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 1:33 pm
These people never cease to amaze me. Their ignorance is beyond comprehension. They believe everything these bible-thumping pastors who are getting rich off the ignorance of their flock tell them rather than think about what they're doing. These people are the right-wing conservative Christians who want to inject this crap into all our lives through government. I'd like to see this brought up at the next Republican debate and see how many of the candidates condemn this at the expense of losing Evangelical votes.
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 1:42 pm
David Cap, why would you be friends with such a fool? What are you doing to educate your idiot friend?

 

jude T. (7)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 3:09 pm
Jesus did not hit any one....he was about love and kindness to all ! was'nt he? Is the spare the rod thing out of the Ark ... like in the old testament......Jesus taught the new testament... love love love.....Come on Christians get your act together and follow the new teachings... not stuff that was left with the ark..... Poor poor innocent children. I hate abuse... the scars run deep . It wrecks peoples life
 

june t. (65)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 3:12 pm
noted
 

Kit B. (277)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 3:29 pm

Origins of the phrase:

This phrase has quite a long genesis. The coiner of the version that we use in everyday speech was Samuel Butler, in Hudibras, the satirical poem on the factions involved in the English Civil War, which was first published in 1662:

Love is a Boy,
by Poets styl'd,
Then Spare the Rod,
and spill the Child.

[by 'spill', Butler did mean spoil - that was an alternative spelling at the time]

The precise words were Butler's, but the proverbial notion is much older. William Langland's The vision of William concerning Piers Plowman, 1377, includes this line:

Who-so spareth ye sprynge, spilleth his children.

'Spilleth' is used to mean 'spoils', as in Butler's poem. 'Sprynge' was commonly used in mediaeval English to mean the verb 'spring', i.e. 'rise quickly, at a bound'. It seems that Langland was using here as a synonym for 'sprig', i.e. rod or offshoot of a plant, although the OED has no other records of 'sprynge' being used that way.

English version of the Bible pre-1377 don't include the line in the form we now use, but they do contain a similar thought, and this is probably where Butler took it from. In the King James Version, Proverbs 13:24, we find:

He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/328950.html
 

Bianca D. (86)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 3:39 pm
Children are to be treasured, nourished, nurtured and, yes, disciplined; but never with violence. The latter shows a complete lack of imagination and a lack of any understanding of how children's minds work and grow.

Anyone remember this? It was posted on my dentist's office wall and I saw it twice a year every year throughout my childhood. Positive programming?!
What a Child Learns

If a child lives with criticism,
she learns to condemn.

If a child lives with hostility,
he learns to fight.

If a child lives with ridicule,
he learns to be shy.

If a child lives with shame,
he learns to feel guilty.

If a child lives with tolerance,
he learns to be patient.

If a child lives with encouragement,
he learns confidence.

If a child lives with praise,
he learns to appreciate.

If a child lives with fairness,
he learns justice.

If a child lives with security,
he learns to have faith.

If a child lives with approval,
he learns to like himself.

If a child lives with acceptance and friendship,
He learns to find love in the world.

(Author Unknown)
 

Yvonne White (231)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 4:53 pm
I don't "get" the perverted Christian FundaMENTALists - I was taught Jesus Loves the Little children, ALL the children of the world, red & yellow, black & white, all are precious in His sight.. never sang any "beat me, slap me, make go to Penn. State Football camp" kinda songs in Sunday School.. sorry, I can't deal with this crap..:(
My husband & I were raised knowing our parents, or Any Adult, might spank us for doing wrong. Our kids knew Only we were allowed to spank them if they did bad things (which meant hurtful, dangerous to themselves or others, kinds of things).. a LITTLE fear is safer than a death or maiming. But kids need CONSTANT oversight, not regular or ritual Beatings!!!! THAT is Insane torture, not Parenting in any Book!
 

Kate Kenner (200)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 5:28 pm
One thing that always strikes me about Christianity is what is done in the name of God, what God wants, what God says, or in this case Jesus. If God and Jesus were so loving why would they want children beaten? I want to know how many of them have met God or Jesus in the flesh and had a conversation with them. Since Jesus has been dead for thousands of years I'm guessing no one has done so. Extreme Christianity is so full of hypocrisy and is such a dangerous religion. Beat your children and go to church the next day. What's wrong with that picture? This a sick group of people.Why would their supposed God or Jesus ever love people tho beat children?
 

Penelope P. (222)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 6:37 pm
Speaking as an ex briused and batte3res child -put into boarding school at fourteen so my stepfather"would not kill"me. And thrown out at sixteen thereafter visiting my family on curfew for some years-curfew being only allowed in the house when my stepfather was not there.-I can I think advocate some spankng without
being accused of not understanding it's impact.

I personally believe that it should be very rare and somewhat of an occassion.
My reason is that sometimes children will obey nothing else and also that the virtue of such punishment
is that it is quickly over and one knows one has paid the debt-This was incidentally what the very much
beaten Victorians claimed. The other reason is that children accept anything like that as life.

There is after all noyhing that can get so psychologically devastating and physicaly demoralising as a playground-I speak as a veteran of fifteen schools standing .

I would also claim that the classroom can be a place of torture when you are behind in a subject and do not understand it-This is what happens to kids that misbehave and frequently it is a flow on effect from the misbehaviour of their peer group.

Kids cannot learn very well under conditions offered by noisy and misbehaving classrooms and harrassed teachers physical discipline is a way out and it is worth noting that some of the "best" schools use it
eg Eton

If it is good enough for the elite it may be good enough for ever=yone

And as Bernard Shaw pointed out("On Education")
"A child does not naturaly do bi-nomial equasions"
 

Yvonne White (231)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 7:00 pm
Children Mostly do what is expected of them - even my autistic son, maybe even Especially my autistic son. But children have to KNOW what is expected. I see kids throwing hissy fits in stores & First I wonder if they're autistic, then I wonder Why their parents let them get away with it. Schools should NOT be Parenting children, the Parents should be called if their kids are rotten trouble makers - maybe some parents need the spanking.
 

Robert B. (57)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 7:51 pm
Yes there is no such thing as a magic wand to stop abuse. It would help to know the underlying reason for the abuse in order to understand how to best stop it. But if we can't always get to the cause right away it in no way excuses anyone from not acting to stop the abuse. If I see someone beating a child or animal the FIRST thing I would do is to try and stop it right then and there. The SECOND thing I would do is notify the proper authorities. THEN we can explore the underlying causes. Immediate action is our "Magic Wand".
 

Robert B. (57)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 7:54 pm
P.S. Abuse of defenseless beings has no mitigating circumstances. Never.
 

Robert B. (57)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 7:57 pm
Karma will crush abusive dogma.
 

greenplanet e. (157)
Thursday November 10, 2011, 9:20 pm
Religion shouldn't be about beating anyone.
 

Quanta Kiran (65)
Friday November 11, 2011, 2:11 am
Thanks
 

KS Goh (0)
Friday November 11, 2011, 4:06 am
Thanks for the article.
 

Elize Labuschagne (190)
Friday November 11, 2011, 4:21 am
Love overcomes all. The ones who suffer are the defenseless ones. This should not be tolerated.
 

Dandelion G. (385)
Friday November 11, 2011, 4:40 am
Sharee Anne and Richard thank you for sharing your personal stories. Friends like David's who deny that this exists need to know these things.
 

Lindsay Kemp (1)
Friday November 11, 2011, 5:46 am
Please, please do not lump all Christians together! The vast majority would come out absolutely against any form of child abuse or elder abuse or animal abuse. Also, beating children, elderly people, or anyone else who is vulnerable is not exclusive to the Christian religion. And Christians believe in a God who is God of love, not of violence, anger or hate.
 

Kit B. (277)
Friday November 11, 2011, 6:14 am

Lindsey, if you read the article it addresses specific people, those who are known as using believers; not just for how rear a child but, also for many elements of their life. This article condemns those people, not all Christians. This article addresses specifics, the news about children being beaten to death by these followers is most abundant these days with this information. Any group that condones harming a child in this way should be condemned, in this case specifically those who write these books and those who use them to encourage their followers to follow this practice. Rather then asking people to not lump all Christians together, should you not first ask that fellow Christians turn away from this thinking? That some may condemn Christianity as a whole are their personal feelings.
 

Kit B. (277)
Friday November 11, 2011, 6:44 am

"He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes." This sentence taken from the KJV (King James Version, Proverbs 13:24) is open to interpretation. To chasten a child does not mean beating a child. I disagree with the idea that a child learns from being hit, or more to the point that [she/he] learns anything positive from that experience. Discipline is vital, as are boundaries, each element must be age appropriate. Rebellion against parents or school institutions is for most children a normal part of growing and learning. It should be expected, addressed in an age appropriate manner and when possible discussed. Allowing that child to self examine the reasons for their behavior allows the child to implement self-control. Children under the age of 5 or 6 can not examine their behavior, they simply react to stimuli. We ask our children to spend their days silent and obedient in classroom, they are bored and not meant biologically, to sit for hours on end being silent. When learning at home or in school, there should be noise, busy children learning and discovering the world is not a silent activity.

My own and other teachers, may have a loud, busy classroom filled with activities that combine many parts of curriculum in one activity. For children the act of grabbing a toy and tossing is aside, is also normal. Their growing brains are interested and do not behave as adult brains.

Adults must remember that children are dynamos of energy, expect them to be curious, to reach out for ever more stimuli to feed their growing interest. The practices proscribed by these authors, blunt normal behavior and create a child seething with internal anger but, outwardly seem obedient. They learn that to pacify these big people and avoid being hurt, they must subdue their natural desire to learn. Parents should take on the responsibility of learning about babies and children, how their brains learn and grow. Parents and teachers need to learn to respond not with anger or violence but understanding and their own internal self-control. Or "Use your Words, Not your hands."
 

Roxana Cortijo (175)
Friday November 11, 2011, 7:04 am
This is really disturbing. These people are sick and use religion to justify their own sickness.
 

ewoud k. (73)
Friday November 11, 2011, 9:21 am
Jodie,

Excuse me for having offended you (if I did so), didn't intend to, I guess you misunderstood what I meant to say.

I never said that Christians in general misuse the bible to do things taht are not good, maybe you misinterpreted the use of "some" between brackets., maybe I shouldn't have put the brackets, would maybe have made it more clear.

What I meant to say is that among christians -just like among followers of other religions- there are some, or groups, of individuals who misinterprete the bible -or, for other religions, their respective holy sciptures- to "justify the unjustifyable", like beating children -the actual subject-, but also other things, maybe not by the same folks, but by folks who do so with a referrence to the bible -holy scripture-, like the crusades, the inquisition, the civil war in Northern Ireland, the war in Kosovo, the treatement of women in Afganistan and Saudi-Arabia, the Hutu-Tutsi killings, nad so on and so on.

I've nothing really against religion -why should I, as religion teaches love, compassion, help and understanding?-, but I can't stand it when a religion is used by some followers of this specific religion, Jewish, Islamic, whatever, or Christian, to do things no God ever thaught.

I'm fully aware of the fact that most followers of most religions follow their holy scriptures as is meant by their religion, and are, how to say it without offending, "normal" human beings, following "their rules" as meant by these "rules", but this doesn't prevent SOME to do abject things referring to the same "rules", justifying themselves with their interpretation of these "rules". And, excuse me for saying this out loud, this is not good, this is not what their religion is about.

I lived and worked in Christian regions that can be labelled "hard-line", or even "extremist", doing social work, and got as a kid a Christian-values based education. I know what Christianism is about, and how it can be misused, and this misuse goes quite far sometimes, I'll spare you the details. I know that the "extremist" point of view is not what the "average" Christian thinks and does, I won't attack this "average" way of Christian life, but this extramist mis-interpretation is something I simply can't stand.

Like beating children, like beating women, like child-abuse, with or without referring to religion.

No reason can ever be considered valid enough to justify these kind of things.
 

Kit B. (277)
Friday November 11, 2011, 9:35 am

I read your earlier comment again Ewoud, I don't see how it could be taken as a condemnation of Christianity, only a condemnation of certain practices that use the guise of Christianity. As this article so clearly defines.

Christianity is most definitely defined as an organized religion, though some may practice it in differing or various ways. That some use this as a cover for brutal acts, is what Christians should be angry about, not that those acts are revealed.
 

Cynthia Davis (340)
Friday November 11, 2011, 10:17 am
The phrase "spare the rod and spoil the child" is often incorrectly attributed to the Christian Bible. It does not appear there. It was first written in a poem by Samuel Butler in 1664.
How ever most Christians use this as a excuses to punish their children physically.

The following quotations come from the King James Version of the Bible:

Prov 13:24: "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes diligently."
Prov 19:18: "Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying."
Prov 22:15: "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from hi
Prov 23:13: "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die."
Prov 23:14: "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."
Prov 29:15: "The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame."

An additional verse from the New Testament is occasionally cited as justification for physical punishment of children:

Hebrews 12:6-7: "...the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son. Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?"
 

Michela m. (3868)
Friday November 11, 2011, 10:28 am
Mis-use of Religion!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Past Member (0)
Friday November 11, 2011, 11:59 am
Cynthia D. Thank you for the biblical quotes. One can see how easily one can find justification in the bible for many perverse things...from incest to child abuse, to killing thine enemies, and an eye for an eye kind of theory may have been 'values' recognized as proper ways of survival 2,000 years ago, but if those parents believe ALL that the bible teaches they should be out killing, maiming, and blowing up the Philistines....
Every culture has its dark sides of bottom line survival, but we grow from that, we learn, we create a more tolerant order, and we depend on the evolution of ourselves as a species to develop compassion, love, and empathy to replace the base emotions of hatred, violence, and revenge. I continue to be more upset by this article than I have been in a while, and I am glad for it. It reminded me life at its most fundamental level needs to be reaffirmed and not wasted on being so self absorbed I forgot one of my foremost desires in this life: To try and protect children from abuse.
I propose all religious bookstores, websites, libraries, schools and commercial bookstores be contacted and asked to remove the book from their shelves immediately, if they have it in stock, in solidarity with true christian values, ( in true humanitarian values for those of us not christian), in the USA.
Kit B. a petition should be down the pike, what think you?
 

Past Member (0)
Friday November 11, 2011, 12:03 pm
For the first and hopefully last time in my life I am calling on and hoping for the banning of a book which is truly written with the desire to shatter children's lives, hearts and minds.
 

Esther S. (45)
Friday November 11, 2011, 1:33 pm
I would like to remind everyone that the Bible states that Jesus spoke up very clearly against stoning. He seemed to make it clear that he did not like violent punishment for any kind of sin. So why would any real Christian think it was the right thing to do to beat their child?
 

DORIS L. (61)
Friday November 11, 2011, 1:34 pm
Hesus has NOTHING to do with this. Now Satan, on the other hand, is VERY APPARENT.
 

Mae T. (0)
Friday November 11, 2011, 1:40 pm
How sick can one be, There are a lot of sick people in the world. Beating,harming are killing our innocent children. If they want to pick on someone tryn it with someone that can defend for themselves. Stop being a coward. Alll of those harmful book should have a recall on them
 

Sheila D. (25)
Friday November 11, 2011, 2:13 pm
These people are NOT Christians. They are taking phrases out of the Old Testament, interpreting them the way they want, and have no thought to what Jesus taught. Truly, these people who hurt their children were hurt in the same ways when they were children. Narcissistic behaviour that has been passed down from generation to generation. Jesus taught love and compassion; that's not just for your neighbor, it's for your children and everybody else you come in contact with. The worst part of the problem is that it's hidden so well. It's hard to prosecute these sick people when these horrific things are done in private and no one will come forward with the truth.
 

Sheila D. (25)
Friday November 11, 2011, 2:17 pm
Just a quick follow-up: Kit, people who home school do not have to have teaching credentials. Most of the children I have known who were home schooled did not have any of these problems, plus their parents were willing to take the extra time to take the classes required to help them home school their children. However, I do realize home schooling is a way to keep the child out of the public eye, and the education system needs to be vigilant in checking on these children periodically.
 

Phillip I. (67)
Friday November 11, 2011, 2:32 pm
That's bad, but it could be worse. The james dobson creature (spits on the ground) wants to turn the US into a fun-damn-mental-ist theocracy. with the likes of itself calling the shots. Not bloody likely...? Well, let's hope. But even if it doesn't come to pass, it could still make life very unpleasant for a lot of people. One of its minions (dobson's) is none other than Elsa Prince Broekhuizen, mother of Eric Dean Prince, you know, the owner of Xe (formerly Blackwater). Those lunatics have the best trained, best equipped private army in the world. (Thank God private armies are illegal......) I really doubt that they could take over the whole US, but given the intrinsic ineptitude of what passes for government of this country, they could end up with a good chunk of the SouthWest. Check out "Republican Gomorrah" Max Blumenthal. Though I disagree with the basic premise of the book - that wrong-wing religious fanatics have destroyed the 'publicans - would it were so.... In any event, I'd never let 'em take me alive.
 

Richard Zane Smith (86)
Friday November 11, 2011, 2:42 pm
Being a previous evangelical myself and meeting all kinds,
I know there are peace loving Christians who remember Yeshua's words
"Blessed are the Peacemakers....they shall inherit the earth" and his warning to adults that anyone who would harm a little one."it would be better for him if a millstone was hung around his neck and he was cast in the sea.."

But There are theological problems that Christians have to sort out, (((sorry folks a little theology here!)))

Theres a deep evangelical belief that Yeshua(Jesus) and Y-W-H(God) are one (of one substance), that Jesus was present even before the beginning of Creation and was one with God. There are even verses(Colossians chapter 1) that state that Jesus WAS the Creator. That does present a problem if the stoning laws are given by Y-W-H(God) who was Creator AND a "pre-incarnate Christ". (trinity stuff!)
A person could therefore argue that it WAS the pre-incarnate Jesus who actually gave the stoning laws and the laws that command the "eye for eye". If Y-W-H wasn't the Creator giving Moses the commands, who was?

Its NOT a problem if Jesus was a godly prophet, a man... but if Jesus is given GOD status...then HE gave the laws to Moses,and often some very violent commands "utterly destroy the Amalikites..."

BUT it seems Jesus did NOT associate with BEING that law giver, because he said..."you have heard it said 'an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth' ,BUT I TELL YOU,do not resist an evil person,if your enemy strikes you on one cheek,turn to him the other" (I'm quoting from memory, so it might not be word for word)

There are many disturbing abuse in OT scriptures,,, if its "Gods word" ,people have some explaining to do.

Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.
Psalm 137:8-9
 

Russell R. (87)
Friday November 11, 2011, 3:37 pm

Mark 10:15
~Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
~In our malice we must become as children if we will enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:14
Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

~ 2 Corinthians 1:3. We as parents must admonish and correct our children, but we must balance it by being parents of mercy and comfort just as God is to us (2 Corinthians 1:3, "Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;"

~ if a child is being disobedient, he or she should have certain privileges or items taken away. Members of the Christian faith that take on this mode of discipline will often resort to methods such as taking away a toy or media device from a child for a length of time that matches the severity of the disobedient behavior that they partook in.

~ Hitting a child as discipline is part of the Old Testament in Hebrews - part of the Laws of Muslims taken from the Ols Testament

~ I know I got smack a few times as a kid as a last resort, but, never with a temper. - I got it more by the nuns at school than at home. Those rulers across the hands hurt, but, you really had to do something bad to get that. You would rather take that across your hands then have to go face the Principle, which usually meant calling your parents. As Most kids at the time, you would rather get hit than not being able to watch TV for a week (with my parents, I never had to do the full term, actually it never lasted the night) I never got hit by my father, but, I did get pinched by my mother. My daughter use to say why don't you hit me. She'd rather get hit, then have to lose a privilage, such as TV or no phone!
These people are taking verses from the Old Testament, and are not living by the Law of the New Testament, which is Love ,Compassion and Respect!

 

Barbara V. (51)
Friday November 11, 2011, 4:52 pm
It's unbelievable the amount of evil committed over the centuries in the name of God or Jesus. That alone would turn me off to Christianity, but I am at least aware of the good Christ did while he was here. Unfortunately, his followers have missed the mark entirely. Horrible crimes were committed by the propoents of that religion, and they still are. I don't believe people really have much knowledge of the Messiah--not as much as they think they do, otherwise greed and evil against children and animals wouldn't be as prominent. Even worse is that nothing is done about it.
 

Jenny Dooley (830)
Friday November 11, 2011, 5:26 pm
"...To Train Up a Child, a book by Christian preacher Michael Pearl that advocates using a switch on children as young as six months old.
"What many people may not realize is that in the evangelical alternative universe of the home school movement, tightly knit church communities and the following of a number of big-time leaders and authors, physical punishment of children has been glorified for years.
"As the Times illustrates -- "Preaching Virtue of Spanking, Even as Deaths Fuel Debate" -- the books of Michael Pearl and his wife Debi have been found in the homes where several children were killed."
 

monka blanke (74)
Friday November 11, 2011, 6:21 pm
Those who "hit" do not deserve the right to have children or pets. If you can't talk instead, seek some council...or advise from a doctor, a person who can help in case of "domestic violence" or else. Nobody should be hurt in the name of any religion - that's rubbish.
 

Vivien Green (150)
Friday November 11, 2011, 6:45 pm
Noted thank you Kit.

To hit an adult that would be considered a violent act, why should it be any different for a child or an animal.
Showing respect to a child or an animal, teaching them boundaries and giving them lots of love and time is all that is needed .
 

Donna Hamilton (135)
Friday November 11, 2011, 9:24 pm
Reminds me of one of my Grandmother's sayings; 'when you beat a child, you knock one devil out and twelve in'.
 

ewoud k. (73)
Saturday November 12, 2011, 3:28 am
Good to see the number of comments, and good to read all the comments posted by people who label themselves as "christian" in it's different forms, and who condemn this kind of practices.

Just hope they -as they are likely the ones that have christian friends- spread the word, that is forward this post and the comments, as there are some comments, like the ones posted by richard and Sharee Anne that ought to be read by those who might be tempted to "take the rod".

The subject has been "adopted" by "official Care2 writers", so more and more will read it and think about it, but this stuff can't go wide enough.

So please share, and thank you all for your comments.
 

Jenny Dooley (830)
Saturday November 12, 2011, 5:23 am
Thank you Kit for this article. Noted and shared with the Human Rights group 'Slavery Today'.

Thank you also An for your news item last month on related topic: i.e. the child abuse murder of Hanna Grace-Rose Williams by her adoptive family who followed the book To Train Up a Child...
http://www.care2.com/news/member/525914819/2976893
 

Henriette Matthijssen (143)
Saturday November 12, 2011, 8:11 am
Discipline is never taught with violence but rather with Love! Children learn what they live! And as we become adults most tend to forget to respect/protect others as you treasure your own beings. Thanks Kit.
Children Learn What They Live
By Dorothy Law Nolte, Ph.D.


If children live with criticism, they learn to condemn.
If children live with hostility, they learn to fight.
If children live with fear, they learn to be apprehensive.
If children live with pity, they learn to feel sorry for themselves.
If children live with ridicule, they learn to feel shy.
If children live with jealousy, they learn to feel envy.
If children live with shame, they learn to feel guilty.
If children live with encouragement, they learn confidence.
If children live with tolerance, they learn patience.
If children live with praise, they learn appreciation.
If children live with acceptance, they learn to love.
If children live with approval, they learn to like themselves.
If children live with recognition, they learn it is good to have a goal.
If children live with sharing, they learn generosity.
If children live with honesty, they learn truthfulness.
If children live with fairness, they learn justice.
If children live with kindness and consideration, they learn respect.
If children live with security, they learn to have faith in themselves and in those about them.
If children live with friendliness, they learn the world is a nice place in which to live.

Copyright © 1972 by Dorothy Law Nolte
 

Brenda Towers (0)
Saturday November 12, 2011, 11:54 am
This is blatant child abuse. It is certainly not Christian . Discipline is good for a child ,but beating a child in order to make obey, is wicked! Teach goodness by example!
Children are not our possessions! They should be guided , guarded and protected from all that is evil!
 

Helle H. (21)
Saturday November 12, 2011, 2:32 pm
Noted with disgust.
 

Charlie L. (47)
Saturday November 12, 2011, 3:42 pm
Kit, thank you for posting this article on such an important issue which in my view affects every part of human society. It's is something that hits a nerve with me. I have never understood why anyone thinks they have a right to hit or otherwise abuse any living creature. As always....a brilliant post on a most disturbing topic as well as your comments.
 

Myriam G. (33)
Sunday November 13, 2011, 3:46 pm
When one hits a child, that person is saying to that child: ''Do as I say because I'm stronger than you, that's why you must obey me''. One is teaching the child the Law of the Thug, and the child learns to obey the will of the strongest.
Hitting a child has no place in society. Raising a child takes intelligence and understanding, empathy and a lot of morality. Raising a child is trying to teach the Law of the Wise. Raising a child entails sharing your life experience with the child, to make sure he/she has a safe and happy life as a child, and to give him/her all that is needed to grow up to be a responsible, active, productive, and loving member of the said society.
 

Nancy C. (795)
Sunday November 13, 2011, 7:14 pm
Religion, abuse and a baby. Criminal and psychopathic. I crossed paths with a person who had been abused, never had counseling and spent 10 years in prison by repeating her past with her own child. I grew up Catholic and remember the rulers and the dark closets and the standing in the corner at school. I seem to remember the corner but I remember the rest as if it had happened to me. The nuns were angry and did not know how to speak to us. They "taught"...hah! (not all were crazed).
Home was loving.There was a steel ruler and I still have it. I was threatened with it a cpl of times but my younger brother got it on the bottom from mom a few times. Perhaps because he was a boy??? My parents were calm and collected but the conversation quotient was low. I was always the talker even if I had no feedback! I think the release verbally was a good thing!
My daughter and both her parents discussed everything. The step away from anger to control and conversation is not always easy but surely worthwhile and productive.
Unbridled violence in the name of religion (or ever) and as a piece of education in parenting needs to be addressed.
Thanx Kit and all for an important, serious and thought provoking thread.
 

alicia m. (100)
Sunday November 13, 2011, 10:44 pm
noted, gracias
 

Alicia N. (87)
Monday November 14, 2011, 8:00 am
There are always thousands and thousands of excuses for abuse. How come the abusers (sickos ) don't
harm themselves?? !!
 

William Y. (54)
Monday November 14, 2011, 8:34 am
My comment from the Alternet site "More ultra right religious insanity"

They claim to follow Christ, but do everything, just the opposite.
 

Andrea Connelly (94)
Monday November 14, 2011, 12:23 pm
Sick! They the "ultras" are ready for lobotomy and Hell beyond. Bon Voyage!
 

Latonya W. (83)
Monday November 14, 2011, 3:57 pm
wow
 

Kristen H. (25)
Tuesday November 15, 2011, 5:55 am
Thanks for reposting this article.
 

Margaret K. (19)
Tuesday November 22, 2011, 3:44 pm
This is a section of the story in the New York Times that is referred to in the original post above.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/07/us/deaths-put-focus-on-pastors-advocacy-of-spanking.html?_r=1&ref=us%22%20target=%22_hplink%22

Late one night in May this year, the adopted girl, Hana, was found face down, naked and emaciated in the backyard; her death was caused by hypothermia and malnutrition, officials determined. According to the sheriff’s report, the parents had deprived her of food for days at a time and had made her sleep in a cold barn or a closet and shower outside with a hose. And they often whipped her, leaving marks on her legs. The mother had praised the Pearls’ book and given a copy to a friend, the sheriff’s report said. Hana had been beaten the day of her death, the report said, with the 15-inch plastic tube recommended by Mr. Pearl.
 

Richard Zane Smith (86)
Tuesday November 22, 2011, 5:06 pm
Thanks Margaret P,
for posting the article here. That was insightful.My concern is the RELIGIOUS AUTHORITY people USE to justify child abuse and if "God said it"...well......one can just about justify any kind of violence.

"Folly is bound up in the heart of a boy,
but the ROD of discipline drives it far away." Proverbs 22:15 (((Wisdom Inspired by God?)))

After a little word study in a Wilson's Old Testament Word Studies i looked up "rod".
there are 4 different Hebrew words used for "rod"
describing a branch or switch, slender and flexible, the rod of a king, the crook of a shepherd,
a rod used for punishing men.

BUT in the verse above (Proverbs 22:15) the Hebrew word ROD that was chosen is...sadly NOT the slender switch, but is the word that can be used for a shepherds crook,(Lev. 17:32) a staff on which one leans,(Psalms 23:4), a kings sceptre,(Exodus 21:20) or a chastising staff Job 21:9

This doesn't sound like a spanking (even by this authors definition) in true scriptural context...but a beating. So if God said it.... Verses like this HAVE BEEN USED and WILL be used, to abuse children .
If King Solomon DID write this wisdom literature attributed to him, he might have been smart, but he wasn't infallible, and as we know did some stupid things (how could he bring happiness and joy to 300 wives and 700 concubines?)...he did write some great wisdom but SOME of this old stuff? ... I think its ok to say it just Solomon's "wisdom", not "Gods Word"
i doubt anyone will "go to hell" for admitting that.
 
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