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Wall Street Isn't Winning - It's Cheating -- Matt Taibbi

Business  (tags: abuse, americans, business, consumers, corporate, corruption, dishonesty, economy, finance, foreclosures, government, investments, marketing, money, politics, society )

- 2382 days ago -
Think about it: there have always been rich and poor people in America, so if this is about jealousy, why the protests now? The idea that masses of people suddenly discovered a deep-seated animus/envy toward the rich - after keeping it strategically-->

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Terry King (113)
Sunday November 13, 2011, 11:28 am
The proletariat, says Marx, is the “universal class”. Because of the dynamics of the capitalist economy all men will eventually be pauperized (except for a tiny number of plutocratic capitalist) and forced down into the proletariat because of the law of capital concentration (as with the farms after enclosure, the more profitable farms/ companies will bankrupt smaller, less efficient rivals, eventually forming a monopoly.
So, I'm a Marxist... What part of this thesis has been dis proven?

John C (75)
Sunday November 13, 2011, 11:43 am
Best article I've read all day!

Mary Anne Bell (202)
Sunday November 13, 2011, 12:29 pm
There are no facts to substantiate that capitalism has has proven to wreck one economy after another. The commenter doesn't understand capitalism.

Roger G (154)
Sunday November 13, 2011, 12:39 pm
noted, thanks !

Mary Anne Bell (202)
Sunday November 13, 2011, 1:03 pm
To know whether I understand capitalism you would have to understand it yourself.

Past Member (0)
Sunday November 13, 2011, 1:15 pm
Well said... making OWS a class warfare issue sidesteps the real issue of inequality and corruption. Most of the 99% protesters/supporters have played by the rules of the American Dream and have been screwed over time and time again because of irresponsible behaviors and actions by those in power. This isn't about capitalism, it's not about rich and poor... it's about rules, laws, and the sacredness of a constitution that has been broken by the many reaping profits off of those trying to work hard and play by the rules of the game! This is about corporations having more than real live people who are being thrown out of their homes, and made to go without basic resources. This is about rightness, fairness and justice for all!

Terry King (113)
Sunday November 13, 2011, 1:15 pm
Please stay out of Louisiana... They will duct tape you to a chair!

Mary Anne Bell (202)
Sunday November 13, 2011, 1:22 pm
What's with Louisiana?

Terry King (113)
Sunday November 13, 2011, 1:25 pm
Search is your friend.

Jae A (316)
Sunday November 13, 2011, 1:33 pm
Great article.

I can only add that I don't think the majority of people care who is rich..that use to be a part of the American Dream, but they do care if the rich get there off the backs of the masses/less weathly via corruption and or economic destruction of others ....who also have to pay the way for the rich tax wise.

Mary Anne Bell (202)
Sunday November 13, 2011, 1:50 pm
I still don't get it.

Shane C (3)
Sunday November 13, 2011, 1:57 pm
Great article. Thanks for sharing.

Terry King (113)
Sunday November 13, 2011, 2:13 pm
My point, exactly!

Mary Anne Bell (202)
Sunday November 13, 2011, 2:27 pm
How do you know?

Terry King (113)
Sunday November 13, 2011, 2:27 pm
It's just a little2 step message. It's up to you to take step 2. The more obtuse you are the funnier it becomes!

Nancy M (197)
Sunday November 13, 2011, 2:37 pm
Another fun thread. Where's that other guy who loves to stalk Kit?

Great article too, BTW.

Terry King (113)
Sunday November 13, 2011, 2:41 pm
I'm changing my dress!

Mary Anne Bell (202)
Sunday November 13, 2011, 2:56 pm
See what you've brought about sweetie. Gotta go now and see if the 9ers are playing. Can't wait till they trounce Dallas.

Mike S (86)
Sunday November 13, 2011, 2:56 pm
The article is a great read, but the comment thread is spectacular! Terry, you are in truly outrageous form today (roflmao).
P.S.: Pay no attention to Margaret...wear whatever you feel like wearing.

Terry King (113)
Sunday November 13, 2011, 3:06 pm
I always dress to please!

Vallee R (280)
Sunday November 13, 2011, 4:03 pm
Kit - the article is great and the comments are better than the Comedy Show.

Terry King (113)
Sunday November 13, 2011, 4:36 pm
certainly no offense taken... we were just goofing around!

Past Member (0)
Sunday November 13, 2011, 5:08 pm
The patience of God Itself will end.

Job was not nearly as patient as many of those who finally PEACEFULLY protest.
His ordeal was probably over in a few months. And JOB got double return.

Do you object to our heros showing patience!

The time for action has come, passed and is virulent.

Susanne R (235)
Sunday November 13, 2011, 10:53 pm
This is an outstanding article written by a very talented young man! His father, Mike Taibbi, is an accomplished reporter with NBC. It appears that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

The response, "you're just jealous!" is one that I remember so well --but haven't heard since I was about eight years old. It was a favorite among catty little girls. The wealthy just don't get it. We're not jealous of their wealth; we resent their favored treatment. And, since we outnumber them by an outrageous percentage, we're in a position to make them feel that resentment and finally are doing just that. They can buy all the "toys" and vacations and mansions and jewelry and luxury cars they want. I'm not jealous. In fact, I couldn't care less because those things aren't important to me. But when they buy our government so that it's only working for them and their agenda, that's where the line must be drawn.

Thanks for an outstanding post, Kit! I see the troll is stalking you again. Aren't there rules against that? She(?) accused Terrie of hiding behind "the skirts" (which is absolutely NOT the case). But if he was, at least he's not wearing them...

patricia lasek (317)
Monday November 14, 2011, 11:36 am
I love Matt Taibbi's way with words:

"When you take into consideration all the theft and fraud and market manipulation and other evil shit Wall Street bankers have been guilty of in the last ten-fifteen years, you have to have balls like church bells to trot out a propaganda line that says the protesters are just jealous of their hard-earned money."


Mary Anne Bell (202)
Monday November 14, 2011, 11:47 am
Why did bankers go bad, all of a sudden, in the last ten-fifteen years?

Lois Jordan (63)
Monday November 14, 2011, 1:56 pm
Great article by Taibbi--he always makes it simple for those of us not well versed in economics to understand. In fact, economics can be so overwhelming, The Powers That Be are betting there are few of us willing to take them on. That's one reason I'm in full support of OWS. And the 60 Minutes segment last night finally exposed some of the depths of corruption in Congress because "insider trading" doesn't apply to them. Unfortunately, it wasn't taken far enough to mention how members of Congress got rich approving Corporate Contractors in both Iraq and Afghanistan; then bought stock options in them. I guess war profiteering is no longer a treasonable offense. Anyway, thanks for the article!

Lois Jordan (63)
Monday November 14, 2011, 2:02 pm
Oh, BTW, the banks went bad when Glass-Steagall was repealed during Clinton. It was replaced by Gramm-Leech-Bliley and allowed the banks to gamble legally. You know, credit default swaps, derivatives....all that confusing economic stuff. As I understand it allowed banks to be both commercial and investment, but you can google it.

Bonnie B (103)
Monday November 14, 2011, 2:26 pm
Thanks, Kit another great article. Lilith, I believe key words in Kit's comment are: "capitalism AS PRACTICED." But that may be too 'subtle' a distinction for you.

and I vote for the Blue Dress, too, Terry. Blue is my favorite color.

Mary Anne Bell (202)
Monday November 14, 2011, 4:17 pm
Put this in your Google and smoke it -

"In the background of the go-go economy, the feeling grew among some economists and the financial community that Glass-Steagall hampered America’s financial competitiveness. Among the many voices favoring this was Alan Greenspan along with former Goldman Sachs partner Robert Rubin, Bill Clinton’s Treasury Secretary. In a 1995 speech and testimony to Congress Rubin signaled the Clinton Administration was ready to repeal Glass-Steagall."

David S (55)
Monday November 14, 2011, 4:26 pm
What is needed is cooperative economics practiced in a classless society. This can be framed in a scientific way, like Marx tried to do (and I particularly found Kroptkin's Mutual Aide an inspirational work...), but it is something that many indigenous peoples have already been practicing from time unknown. I choose to go back to our most human roots to find such answers for the future.

Mary Anne Bell (202)
Monday November 14, 2011, 4:49 pm

Mary Anne Bell (202)
Monday November 14, 2011, 5:05 pm
Only you could confuse deregulation of the airlines with Clinton's deregulation of the banking scoundrels.

Mary Anne Bell (202)
Monday November 14, 2011, 5:27 pm
How about being more specific with your grievance? Just sounds like you want to pick up your toys and go home. Play nice.

Kamila A (141)
Monday November 14, 2011, 10:50 pm
I am distracted and offended by Lilith's posts. He/she is stalking Kit, potentially dangerous, definitely creepy

Kamila A (141)
Monday November 14, 2011, 11:02 pm
Capitalism doesn't work in the long run when it is hijacked by those antisocially disordered personality types, like Cheney of Halliburton fame (perfect example) where money comes flowing in, at the cost of the lives of our children in uniform, and " theirs" as "collateral damage". There is blood on those rich hands. These psychopathic beings are successful in their greedy gains because their hearts are missing. In Cheney's case its literal.

David S (55)
Tuesday November 15, 2011, 1:59 am
Selfish greed cannot self regulate. At most it only reveals the simple truth that the so called invisible hand is actually a iron fist, and now it shows itself.

@camila: It is not that it doesn't work in the long run because it is hijacked. It is a system that expressly and explicitly promotes the interest and wealth most of those who are most sociopathic by its very nature. "greed is good" it proclaims while the needs of the many are openly sacrificed for the anti-social greed of the few. This nature and result are one, they cannot be separated. It is a negative empathy system, another way of saying inhumane.

Esther Z (94)
Tuesday November 15, 2011, 5:49 am
"At last count, there were 245 millionaires in congress, including 66 in the Senate." I think here lies part of the problem. These millionaires are self serving politicians who will only protect corporate America, the rest of the 1% and will fight for legislation that benefits Wall Street, and screws the American consumer.

Nancy M (197)
Tuesday November 15, 2011, 6:31 am
Lois Jordan- I thank you for the reminding about Clinton's role. I remember my Dad talking about that. And Yet- the banks were already a mess. From about 1988-1990 we had that Savings and Loan crisis in Texas and other banks nation-wide were affected. FDIC at the time only insured $100,000 in assetts and in many cases refused to pay more. Smaller banks were going under and some were bought. I remember that Rhode Island had its own banking insurance and that was a mess too.

Bottom line- that is when banks dropped paying interest (5-5.25%) and started chargin more and more fees. That is a clear sign of trouble.

Thanks again Kit for a great article.

Christopher Fowler (82)
Tuesday November 15, 2011, 6:33 am
Factually speaking, the only successful self-regulating organizations have been not for profit groups like the American Motorcycle association, For profit groups like NASCAR and other organizations that do not depend on Wall Street banks or federal funds to stay afloat.
Divorce the banks from federal aid, outside of the FDIC, which is there for the banking customers, and let them fail if they can't make it on a level playing field.
Not to worry if some of them do fail. Nature abhores a vacuum, so someone will come along to fill the void left by the demise of corrupt banks. It has always been that way and it will always be that way.

Kathy Javens (104)
Tuesday November 15, 2011, 8:45 am
Noted. Great article, Kit. And to Jae, You said it perfectly,my friend.

Tim C (2420)
Tuesday November 15, 2011, 2:37 pm

Joe Shults (37)
Tuesday November 15, 2011, 4:56 pm
Thanks for the article.

Deborah L (70)
Tuesday November 15, 2011, 6:49 pm
I don't envy those who truly work and earn their wealth. What I do not like is when those with the money obtained it from cheating, lying, cutting employees wages claiming things are bad and then taking the sacrifices of their employees and stuff the money stolen from those employees only to stuff it in their own pockets and then send those jobs overseas for lower yet wages for desperate people and abandon the workers who made these people rich in the first place. It is just not right.

Wayne W (12)
Tuesday November 15, 2011, 8:28 pm
"Only you could confuse deregulation of the airlines with Clinton's deregulation of the banking scoundrels."

Lilith, I know you know better than that. The bill that became the repeal of Glass-Steagall was the "Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act". Respective versions of the legislation were introduced in the U.S. Senate by Phil Gramm (Republican of Texas) and in the U.S. House of Representatives by Jim Leach (R-Iowa). The third lawmaker associated with the bill was Rep. Thomas J. Bliley, Jr. (R-Virginia), Chairman of the House Commerce Committee from 1995 to 2001.
During debate in the House of Representatives, Rep. John Dingell (Democrat of Michigan) argued that the bill would result in banks becoming "too big to fail." Dingell further argued that this would necessarily result in a bailout by the Federal Government.

The final votes were largely bipartisan. In 2000, Senator Phil Gramm played a central role in writing the Commodity Futures Modernization Act, a law that would open the door to unregulated trading of credit default swaps, the financial instruments blamed, in large part, for the current economic meltdown. Wendy Gramm, Senator Phil Gramm's wife, was the former chairman of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission. After leaving the CFTC, she took a seat on Enron's board of directors. If you have to blame one person for this mess, it's not Bill Clinton, it's Phil Gramm. But there's plenty of blame to go around.

John C (75)
Tuesday November 15, 2011, 9:09 pm
Lilith/Pauls Views of capitalism are based in a position of objectivity. The definition of objectivity in this case means "it doesn't happen to you."
Once you have experienced it, one won't forget no matter the drivel.

Bryan S (105)
Tuesday November 15, 2011, 9:12 pm
Thanks for the great article Kit.

People are protesting because they're jealous??

Man, after the economic collapse of 2008 due to Wall St. fraud, millions of people losing their jobs and/or homes, the banks getting bailed out with no strings attached and allowed to still be TBTF, and considering how these financial elites control our politics, i thought the question "What are they protesting?" was the stupidest thing i'd heard. Guess not though.

Terry King (113)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 8:34 am
The removal of posts by Kit and Margaret in response to constant baiting and trolling is ludicrous! What goes on?

Kit B (276)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 8:36 am

Good question Terry - but will there be an answer?

Wednesday November 16, 2011, 9:09 am
I have had so many comments removed in the past two days which ARE NOT in violation of Care2 Code of Conduct in any way, yet Care2 refuses to removed comments where I have been accused of being celebratory in regard to slitting of infant Israeli throats and called an antisemitic about a thousand time, even in light of my JEWISHNESS. Care2 seems to be turning into Crap2.

Nancy M (197)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 9:12 am
Does kind of make it look like Lilith is talking to herself.

Kit B (276)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 9:22 am

I can also remember comments where Margaret was called "pond scum" and told that her children should be taken away because of her world views and support of those views with fact rather then opinion. Those vile comments were flagged and not removed. So as long you don't use any word - in a world of adults, that is #$%!& then you can say whatever you want to whomever you choose. Sorry, but that is not monitoring the threads but subjecting them to personal issues.

Nancy M (197)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 9:31 am

Has this thread turned into #$%!& because of censorship?

Kit B (276)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 9:38 am

So it would seem Nancy. Or at least limited censorship as I noted above. Use all the symbols you want and please feel free to call people names and mock their opinions and ideas, just do not use actual expressive language.

Andrea Connelly (94)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 9:50 am
Margaret and Kit, I am with you. If Care2 turns into Crap2 I will also opt out and will find another venue where freedom of expression applies to everyone. Care2, you could lose a lot of support by bad publicity. Is that what you want? And, by the way, trolls like Lilith Who Cares, get rid of her, him or it. Just a s..t disturber, not even good at that. I will relay all that follows to my 85 friends, who will probably pass the message on to their God only knows how many friends, and there is Facebook, and Linkedin etc. Does Care2 want to survive? If so, show some respect and consideration to our opinions.

Andrea Connelly (94)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 9:54 am
should read "for" instead of "to".

Kit B (276)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 9:59 am

Thanks Andrea, it is most disturbing that all of comments left by Margaret were removed as were mine. Freedom of expression, a right to speak your mind, is or was the idea I thought Care2 was supposed to be about. Not a forum for attacking others. Those who attack are left to continue their spiteful rants against those they either do not like or can not tolerate their opinions when differing from their own.

Kamila A (141)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 10:03 am
I guess Care2 is just another tool then, and we need to find another place

Terry King (113)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 10:03 am
Occupy Care2! Fight the trolls. Fight the power!

Kit B (276)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 10:10 am

Perhaps a petition that addresses just that? The current rules for Care2 are obtuse at best, discriminatory at worst. Leaving only a vague guide of rules left to individual interpretation. Not our own individuality but rather some one else decides for us.

You guys are wonderful!

Wednesday November 16, 2011, 10:18 am
Thank you Andrea. It also bothers me that as these comments have been removed, I have inquired as to why. Mine actually didn't have anything $#!@%@$%^@$, yet they were removed and I don't even get a response to my inquiries. It also seems that mob flagging is another tool which seems to work. On two other sites where I posted nothing but fact, accompanied by proper citation were also removed. Why bother actually taking the time to counter mythical, racist posts with fact, if they are going to be removed because a group of people flag it because they disagree with you. I am very disappointed in Care2's policies. On one hand, they refuse to enact their own policies, but on a whim remove commentary which, in fact, doesn't go against their policies.

Wednesday November 16, 2011, 10:18 am
Also, much thanks to all of you for your support. It is greatly appreciated.

lee e (114)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 10:29 am
I'm so sorry you would face such obstacles on this site! I so admire you and your supporters who are often together become invaluable resources of critical thinking on issues so important to me! I don't have enough stars to hand out to so many who've contributed here - don't let the stalkers get you down - no doubt there is a concerted effort to still the voice of wisdom. Please don't rob me of your research! I don't have the tech power nor am I an Evelyn Wood graduate to keep up with all the wonderful sources that you and some others here tap into! Thanks so much for this one - I love Taibbi and agree with your take on it - you'd be sorely missed if you opted out - I'd have to resort to "stalking" to find you again!!! :) That goes for so many others who have already commented here - I hope you know who you are . Stiff upper lip and all that - keep me informed Kit and don't let the idiots get you down!! Hope Margaret's voice is not suppressed as well!

Kit B (276)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 10:36 am

I would follow Margaret into a fiery volcano. She is not only a bright and witty woman, she actually shares her wealth of accumulated facts with the rest of us. For that I feel I owe her a debt of gratitude.

It does seem true that the stalkers win the day. Even though the use of #@$% etc...can be found each and every day on Care2 in every topic line from politics to animal rights, those comments are not removed. Forgive me but this does seem very personal.

Nancy M (197)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 10:41 am
I think part of the problem here is that Kit has been stalked for well over a year- or is it over two years now? So when the stalker gets ion using one of his avatars, others who don't know Kit don't realize she is being stalked. Then they start with their personal attacks of Kit and her friends. It can deteriorate rapidly after that stalker shows up.

Kit B (276)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 10:45 am

Very true Nancy and it might be said that Care2 is well aware of this problem. Though I am getting much better at recognizing the style and syntax of the stalker, no matter what name, avatar or gender he is using.

Nancy M (197)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 10:48 am
Maybe he will show up in a clown suit next. Or maybe a German Shepherd suit!

Kit B (276)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 10:51 am a Rick Perry avatar?

Mary Anne Bell (202)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 11:38 am
Rick Perry sure had it right when it comes to Keynesian economics. Obama could learn a thing or two.

Past Member (0)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 12:46 pm
Lilith, who is paying you to disrupt this site and stalk Kit?

Terry King (113)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 1:06 pm
Rick Perry couldn't spell Keynesian economics if it was written on his hand. So I've heard!

Kamila A (141)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 1:34 pm
ignoring ignorant sell-outs......though choice words come to mind.....nah, not worth it......Margaret, thank you for returning in spite of unfairness. You and Kit are valuable to us all for your wisdom and knowledge.
Our power lies in our mass awakening to the powers that have been wielded against us without our knowledge. As we become aware, we can shake them off, especially because we are the majority, not even 51% but 99.9%. It will be easy, can be easy, if we go forward in the way of wisdom.

This is a movie which might be of interest to the spiritually based:
Watch particularly the second half.
Non-violent action, a la Ghandi is our best "weapon" and power.

Mary Anne Bell (202)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 1:39 pm
Think of all the Republicans in that 99% Camile.

Susan L (150)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 2:30 pm
Well, despite the obvious lack of visible comments by Margaret or Kit, it appears they must have made some pretty significant posts that don't please the extremists we have stalking Care 2 - when everything you say is redacted from your own article submission's comments for speaking too much truth and fact you must be doing a GREAT JOB! Those with elevated self importance rarely want facts dirtying the propaganda. Keep up the good work Kit and Margaret - your honesty and knowledge are a breath of fresh air for most of us - though the 'powers-that-be' and their underlings rarely respect the truth and want to 'quiet' you.

Nancy M (197)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 2:33 pm
And luckily many of us have those words of wisdom in our message files. It can pay to track.

Elle B (84)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 4:08 pm
Kit, Margaret...

Your astute assessments and genuineness of being are appreciated. Passionate commentary directed at the the "waste products" of putrid, purulent, malignant, tumorous fungi infestations oozing toxic miasma born of dysfunctional brain matter of diseased biomass...certainly should not be cause for censure. You bring a very special essence. . .you belong here...they don't.

If it is Care2...hopefully they will soon refine flagging. If it is some diseased [FUNGI] IT setups. . .BUG OFF!



Esther Z (94)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 6:45 pm
Kit and Margaret, those of us with common sense,who have outgrown our high school immaturity, and are reasonably intelligent, do appreciate your submitted stories, engaging comments and discussions. I would focus on people that are worth your time, effort and energy, and leave those trying to bait you into frustrating, incoherent discussions, to their own delusions. You can't help those who's thinking is as clear as mud or refuse to accept facts or reality. Just my two cents.

Susanne R (235)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 6:55 pm
I'm very disappointed that Care2 would let a "stalker" dictate their policy. Kit and Margaret put a considerable amount of time and effort into their contributions: they post articles about issues that are important, timely and relevant; they follow up on comments that are added by Care2 members; they are knowledgeable, intelligent, well-intentioned and are always prepared to back up any statements they might make with credible references and resources.

The stalker, on the other hand, is like a nasty virus that can't be quarantined. His goal is to create mayhem. It concerns me that Care2 would tolerate such behavior --much less ostracize those who are genuinely interested in intelligent discourse. Instead of trying to create ill-will and chaos in threads being used by those of similar opinion and then complaining about it once he's achieved his goal, I would suggest that the stalker limit his comments to the threads of contributors with views similar to his own.

Kamila A (141)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 8:34 pm
Just like they do, I would advise all who are offended to contact the editors, the powers-that-be here so that they are clear about what is going on. On the other threads that are ugly characters that post all day long, long dull diatribes of repetitious lies, and "cerebral" brainless chatter. One in particular gets people kicked off all the time and manages to maintain the bizarre composure and has plenty of time to spend here. They must be paid for all their antics or, are asylum inmates with time on their hands. Muslim bashers, haters, ignorant, spelling challenged idiots latch onto them and together they happily go on, make false statements, and speak out of both sides of their mouths, and try to spread hate, violence and darkness over the otherwise sweet land of Care2.
I think these trolls stay in contact with the administration, and have worn down their defenses, or, Care2 is just another tool of the Koch empire or whatever heinous anus that rules the universe of money that spins the insane world. Whatever.
We won't be shut up, and we won't be backing off like we used to. The days of darkness are over, so either come to where the Light is, or just sink into your stinky holes and stay there.

William K (308)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 9:01 pm
Kit is one of the most intelligent and articulate commenters on Care2. That her posts were deleted is a gross injustice. I stand by her in support.

I will also attest to the Paulilith troll being a single entity cowardly hiding behind multiple aliases that had a particular obsession for Kit. As evidence of the former, I present a comment made by "Paul" who is posting the exact same comment made by "Lilith" on several other threads. It is an exact copy, copy and pasted in. The thing is, it contains a hyperlink, and in these comments. the HTML code has to be typed in manually. To be that exact of a copy, then "Paul" would have had to have had the code copied as well. That is, they were pasted from the same computer. "Paul" did not realize that he was no longer logged in as "Lilith" and pasted it in on "Paul's" account. Oops. Then had to follow up with a second paste stating that it was a "repost" from Lilith.

Penelope P (222)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 9:06 pm
People seem to be ignoring the fact that as long as we have capitalism and as long as we have had it most of these problems have existed in some form or another-even before the south sea bubble.

Perhaps this is what the bible was warning us about when it forbade usury(the lending of money on interest).

Usury is the basis of our society and of capitalism and as long as usury is so important the banks will remain powerful

Penelope P (222)
Wednesday November 16, 2011, 9:10 pm
And furthermore Wall st will continue to win while these sort of dreams persist

Norm C (74)
Thursday November 17, 2011, 12:04 am

You keep embarrassing yourself; although, you never seem to get it.

Capitalism, if FDR had not saved it with the second New Deal and Hitler and the Japanese with WWII, would have killed itself in the aftermath of Black Monday in 1929. If the current crop of deficit hysterics, Wall Street simpletons, supply-siders, wackadoodle monetarists, gold bugs and MBA lunatics continue to block attempts to put people back to work, capitalism will commit suicide within the next decade (and the consequences will not be pretty) -- yeah, I know this is a prediction and not yet a verifiable fact.

As you know I do not consider myself a socialist. My philosophy can best be described as Abraham Lincoln/Mondragon inspired Laborism. I believe that labor should employ capital and not the other way around. That has proven to be far more efficient and productive as well as humane. I believe in a mixed economy with people free for as long as they live to use whatever economic tools work for them. But no C Corporation should have a life expectancy beyond that of adult human beings. Such corporations should, at expiry of their charters, be bought out by an individual or partnership and cease to be a corporation or be converted to a worker owned and worker managed co-operative corporation. But in either case, the entity would continue to exist within a market economy, though one subject to significant regulation to protect the public interest.

It is interesting to note how well the Scandanavian countries with their far heavier taxation, regulation and far greater public services have weathered this economic disaster relative to the US, UK, the rest of Europe, etc.

I realize, Hans/Lilith/et al, that it is after all this time futile to note that you never really offer anything constructive or informative, only a lot of name calling.

Mike S (86)
Thursday November 17, 2011, 8:54 am
I cannot believe that the earlier comments by Kit and Margaret were redacted. There was nothing in them that violated the TOS of this site. I guess some people are just anti truth! For the record, both of these ladies have my utter respect and support. Of course, now that I have stated my position, this comment will probably be flagged by the troll(s).

Kit B (276)
Thursday November 17, 2011, 9:27 am

I am out of Green Stars for so many of you that not only actually addressed the topic of this article/discussion, but also are supportive of Margaret and I having the same rights to participate as any troll to disrupt. My thanks and deepest appreciation.

Terrie Williams (798)
Thursday November 17, 2011, 1:32 pm
Kit, you and Margaret contribute far too much to leave those of us behind who truly benefit fro your research and in-depth comments, you know, those pesky things called FACTS. Please don't opt out. Everywhere else I've gone to in order to find a better, more open forum for factual discussions SUX. They do not have the community feel that I have found here. As much as I get fed up with the trolls and Fascist-in-training wanna-bes, I always keep coming ack to care2. There is nowhere else out there that I have found to be anything close to the community and openness of this place, despite the trolls. But....if you both go, I will understand and follow wherever you go.

And as hard as it is to do and believe me, most of the time it is everything I can do to NOT do this.....#1 rule.....don't feed the trolls. If you two leave, you will have given them the banquet they sought. Stay and starve them to death. :)


Phil R (29)
Thursday November 17, 2011, 7:22 pm
I see that there ARE missing comments by Kit and Margaret in this thread. Someone is responsible for this action. I'd like an explanation from that person.

Phil R (29)
Thursday November 17, 2011, 7:30 pm
I think a lot of people here would like to know what's going on. Do we need to start a petition?

Thomas H (37)
Tuesday November 22, 2011, 7:11 pm
I totally agree with so many here that Kit and Margaret are superb people. That they are continually provoked by this personality disordered individual is an injustice. I stand behind both Kit and Margaret. I stand right in front of you, Lilith.

Tuesday November 22, 2011, 8:44 pm
I haven't been on this thread for a few days and am really overwhelmed with the comments. Thanks to all of you for your support and kindness. It certainly has come at a time when I am being served up as lunch on another thread.

Regarding a petition. Jelica, which I am sure many of you know, has suggested a #OccupyCare2 petition. If anyone is game, we could proceed that way.

Kit, what can I say to you, aside from ditto.

Marianna molnar woods (9)
Wednesday November 23, 2011, 6:24 am
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