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Judge Forces Texas Educators to Apologize to Agnostic Family


Society & Culture  (tags: abuse, americans, children, culture, dishonesty, education, ethics, family, freedoms, government, law, politics, religion, rights, society )

Kit
- 983 days ago - slatest.slate.com
A federal judge issued what he called a "non-Kumbaya" order to two Texas educators this week, requiring them to apologize for disparaging remarks made about an agnostic family who sued a school district over school prayer.



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Comments

Kit B. (276)
Tuesday March 20, 2012, 1:43 pm

A federal judge issued what he called a "non-Kumbaya" order to two Texas educators this week, requiring them to apologize for disparaging remarks made about an agnostic family who sued a school district over school prayer.

The San Antonio Express News reports that under Monday's ruling Medina Valley Independent School District superintendent James Stansberry and high school band director Keith Riley will have to formally say they are sorry for violating a portion of a legal settlement that forbade administrators and employees from disparaging the family.

The settlement, reached last month, banned administrators from praying with students, proselytizing, or displaying religious symbols other than jewelry, according to the paper. USA Today notes that organized prayer is permitted by the settlement, but commencement ceremonies in the district will carry a disclaimer making clear that statements by students are not endorsed by the district.


Soon after the settlement was reached, Stansberry said the lawsuit was a "witch hunt" in a televised interview and, despite the terms of the settlement indicating otherwise, claimed that the agnostic family "wanted our teachers to stop wearing crosses." Riley got in trouble for a Facebook comment saying "don't get me started on the lies and false accusations," referring to former student Corwyn Schultz, the student at the center of the lawsuit, the San Antonio Express News explains.
***

By Abby Ohlheiser for The Slate

Please read full article.

 

Roseann D. (178)
Tuesday March 20, 2012, 2:10 pm
Horrible that students have to attend these nutty schools. Teachers needs a psych test and definitely a background religious zealot freak check before they should be allowed to teach.
 

David C. (29)
Tuesday March 20, 2012, 2:30 pm
Thank you for this post!
 

. (0)
Tuesday March 20, 2012, 2:48 pm
Wow, frankly I am surprised that this happened in rabidly-Christian conservative Texas!!
 

Mike S. (86)
Tuesday March 20, 2012, 3:36 pm
Noted and shared. Thanks Kit.
 

Tonya M. (71)
Tuesday March 20, 2012, 6:23 pm
Noted. I am a Christian. I don't attend church regularly. When I do go, I go for myself and not for others. Some churches seem to be more like a business these days. Was raised going to a Methodist church, attended a Catholic private school as a Protestant from 3rd - 8th grade, attended Baptist and Pentacostal churches with friends on occasion, attended Church of Christ during my dating and first marriage years, after divorce shopped around for churches who's attendees practiced what they preached until I finally settled with a Weslyan church, moved and have visited a few times to a non-denominational church with a neighbor.

I generally find I can't stomach the individuals who preach one thing then don't practice it. I mostly can't stand judgemental people who don't recognize they're judging others and their xxxx doesn't stink.

So, I gave up long ago attending church because it was "the right thing to do". I go when I've got good enough casual dress clothes and shoes for me and the kids, when my health allows me and/ or on weeks I've allowed my words to go to the gutter way too much. I attend to get edification to find perspective for myself.

In this child advocacy business of which I participate daily, it puts a drain on any religous beliefs one has. I've had many a doubtful moment, day, week, month, year but I'm coming to realize that of all the belief systems that are out there, I choose one in which teaches forgiving others, judging not, caring for mankind, animals and the earth enough to take action to make a difference.

No, we don't need to cram our belief system down someone else's throat but on the other hand our country and society is not about the ellimination of all religion but the acceptance of the practice and speech of all without censorship. It's about fairness and respect not the ellimination of.

I recognize the complexity of keeping the balance between freedom to practice and speak your religion and yet not forcing it upon others. If seperation of church and state means one cannot speak about their religion within places that utilize public funding then reason would follow, a person would not be allowed to speak of such riding on public highways, in libraries, etc. not only within schools and courtrooms.

As far as this particular article's topic is concerned, there was a clear order from the judge to cease any disparaging remarks. The school officials were not acting in the true Christian spirit when they made the remark. They violated the judge's original orders. They deserve to apologize.

Like Ithe saying goes "if you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all"!
 

Michael T. (82)
Tuesday March 20, 2012, 8:06 pm
Tonya, thank you for a wonderful comment from someone who practices their faith without shoving it in someone else's face. That was beautifully written. It takes a village to raise a child.
 

Robert Hardy (68)
Tuesday March 20, 2012, 10:03 pm
Perhaps they should have been put in jail for contempt of court. When will the "religious" stop their war on non-believers.
 

Laurita Walters (60)
Tuesday March 20, 2012, 10:12 pm
School District superintendent James Stansberry and high school band director Keith Riley seem like sore losers. Not surprising, since zealots rarely follow rules of good citizenship.
People of faith are rarely the 'religious zealots' who cause so much trouble or kill in the name of some god or other. Faith, in itself, seems to defuse zealotry.
 

Christoffer Blomlöf (18)
Tuesday March 20, 2012, 10:52 pm
Very nicely done.
 

pam w. (191)
Tuesday March 20, 2012, 10:54 pm
READING THIS FEELS SOOOOO GOOOOOD!

Imagine some ignorant, self-assured ANAL SPHINCTER being required to apologize to a family he's publicly disparaged? As a "good Christian"....he should have apologized already. Guess he's not such a "true blue follower of Christ?"

I love it!
 

LMj Sick Sunshine (134)
Tuesday March 20, 2012, 11:55 pm
Thank You for Sharing!
 

Jennifer C. (169)
Wednesday March 21, 2012, 12:43 am
Noted. Thanks.
 

Rose NoFWDSPLZ (280)
Wednesday March 21, 2012, 4:39 am
I love it too Pam
 

Kit B. (276)
Wednesday March 21, 2012, 8:19 am

True faith is a personal and private decision and like all the personal decisions in our lives belongs only to each on a private level. Churches are to function for the gathering of like minded people, be they Christian, Buddhist, Baha'i,Islam, or Jewish(or any other) . Each religion views god in their own way, that way is meant to be practiced in daily life, not by pushing those beliefs on others nor judging others, rather by living the life of the belief system teaches. A forced prayer is not a prayer at all, in fact any issue of personal belief that is forced is not real. Before the decision by the Supreme Court to remove prayer in school my high school was made up from 3 primary religious groups and though our principal didn't like prayer in school, he had one prayer in Latin, one in Hebrew, and one in English all presented by the students and if we had even one person that practiced Islam then that prayer too would have been offered. It was his own rebellion, if you will, against forced prayer.

I hear a lot about people having a personal relationship with god, then please do so, and keep it personal. Public schools are supported with public money and must remain secular. There is no real battle to stop, end or remove religion from the United States, only an effort by many to keep it personal and not force others to participate in a religious prayer or ceremony that has no meaning for them. Nearly 20% of the US now claims to be either agnostic, atheist or humanist - they too have a right to not pray. Personal choices, let's keep it a level playing field.
 

JL A. (274)
Wednesday March 21, 2012, 9:41 am
Kudos to the judge for educating these so-called educators who needed a basic civics lesson.
 

Sue Matheson (74)
Wednesday March 21, 2012, 9:45 am
good.
 

pam w. (191)
Wednesday March 21, 2012, 9:59 am
Thanks, Kit!
 

Kit B. (276)
Wednesday March 21, 2012, 10:03 am

All evidence to the contrary, there are still some rational, thinking and fair people here in Perryland. More of us "liberals" could care less what others do with their personal lives, how, when or if they pray. Whether or not they use birth control nor what person or persons are in their bed. Just ain't none of my business and I have yet to see a law that actually had a true effect on the workings of the individual mind. We have enough real problems, why make up things to whine and complain about that cause no harm?

Obama actually dared to step up and say that if men can get boner pills, women should also have access to birth control prescriptions. The outrage and fear over that simple statement of fairness speaks loudly to me about the intellectual deficits in those who twisted this into something ridiculous. If any one thinks that women do not have a real fear of pregnancy - they're completely uninformed.

We need more judges like this one who can separate law from pushy religious zealots that are determined to decide how others live their lives.
 

Michael T. (82)
Wednesday March 21, 2012, 10:11 am
Well said Kit. Iíd like to add that it seems to me that in the present day, Christians and many muslim adherents are acting the same way that their oppressors did in days gone by. They were oppressed, hounded, rooted out, enslaved, or killed in horrible ways.

Their leaders learned that power was what they needed to seek to stay alive. Once they were able to stay alive however, power had sunk its teeth in and added greed. They built empires and armies. Now they are the status quo and in power and they wish to impose their belief on everyone else as the one and only belief. Killing in the name of god and religion far outnumber wars fought for any other cause. We still have wars of religion even today.

While there is little killing in America, the christian rightist monologue involving some 28,000 plus versions, is demonstrably engaged in its imposition of its belief systems and dogma, and has become rabid and filled with intolerance for anything less than their belief system and dogma.

Where did the compassion, acceptance and tolerance preached by these believers texts go? I donít recall Yashuah ben Yosef preaching ďMy way or the highway.Ē
 

Kit B. (276)
Wednesday March 21, 2012, 10:25 am


Thanks Michael - Sending a Green Star is a simple way to say "Thank you"
You cannot currently send a star to Michael because you have done so within the last week.

For many other than the translated and re-translated then reinterpreted ideas of peace and love thy brother, are lost in translation. Love and peace require no judgements and certain no interference in other's lives. People of deeply religious beliefs and people of no belief system can treat each other in an honest and fair way, it happens everyday, it's called humanity. I need not drop $5.00 in a plate to know and understand these concepts. I don't need a preacher to tell me to believe, or attempt to put fear of my other worldly life in jeopardy to simply be a human being. I will as I have attempt to live this life and in doing so attempt (and sometimes fail) to just accept others at face value.
 

Brian M. (201)
Wednesday March 21, 2012, 10:41 am
If parents want their children to accept religious indoctrination then they should take them to church and teach them said doctrines at home. School is no place for religion.
 

Michael T. (82)
Wednesday March 21, 2012, 10:52 am
Well aw shucks Kit. I just sent you a green star, because I could this week, to thank you for your thanks and to thank you for presenting such an article that would prod me into posting the comments I did.
 

Rosie Lopez (73)
Wednesday March 21, 2012, 12:28 pm
thnx for sharing
 

Janet G. (0)
Wednesday March 21, 2012, 1:06 pm
Noted.
 

Nancy Roussy (79)
Wednesday March 21, 2012, 2:57 pm
Except in history lessons (ONLY at the parts where it has to do with religions and only to talk about the FACTS) religions should never be in schools!
 

Mary L. (138)
Wednesday March 21, 2012, 4:14 pm
I have said for years I have NO problem with public prayer as long as every faith that wishes is allowed to pray out loud, one faith at a time, as well. The problem comes when people want to limit it to one and only one faiths prayer.
 

Scarlett P. (126)
Thursday March 22, 2012, 8:34 am
There maybe other religions... But there is only one way for salvation and that is through the Lord Jesus Christ and accepting the sacrifice He made on the cross, the blood He shed to wash away our sins.. Being religious does not get you in Heaven. Accepting Christ and following His way will..
 

Kit B. (276)
Thursday March 22, 2012, 10:42 am

Therein lies the problem. Those who are so sure that only their way is the RIGHT way. When in fact the vast majority of humans, no matter what religion or non-religion, believe in caring and decency toward each other. So once again Scarlett your message is a waste of space.
 

Michael T. (82)
Thursday March 22, 2012, 11:47 am
I am sorry, but I have to dispute this. You have no proof and only your belief, which you are free to hold in your heart. An old book says we are born in sin. No proof, just words that are 3000 years old written by men in a desert.
The man you call the lord jesus was part of a group called the Nazarenes. This has nothing to do with a town called Nazareth which didnít actually exist until the second century CE. When this man died the Nazareneís were composed of a man call Peter, the so called apostles, Mary, his mother, Mary Magdalene and his generally glossed over brothers and sisters. This group held that Yoshuah ben Yosef was a man. They held that he was not the product of a virgin birth (certainly his own mother would know), and that there was no resurrection. A tormented soul named Saul had hallucinations and wrote them as if they were truth. The Nazareneís distanced themselves from Saul and his ravings. Today, someone like Saul would be placed in an institution and put on medication. Two centuries later, the writings of Saul/Paul came into favor and the church founded on these writings excommunicated the Nazareneís who had to flee into Mesopotamia to avoid persecution.
I will now kindly ask what that information does to your insistent belief?
 

Kit B. (276)
Thursday March 22, 2012, 12:06 pm

For those few who may not know:

Sin & Evil: In the Aramaic Language and culture that Jesus taught in, the terms for "sin" and "evil" were archery terms. When the archer shot at the target and missed the scorekeeper yelled the Aramaic word for sin. It meant that you were off the mark, take another shot. The concept of sin was to be positive mental feedback. Sin is when you are operating from inaccurate information and thus a perceptual mistake. When you become conscious and aware if the results of your inaccuracy you have the option to reconsider what you have learned and do as they do in Hollywood, "do another take." By the way, where the arrow fell when it missed the target was referred to as evil.

Lucifer: Lucifer is Latin for "Light Bringer". The Hebrew for the same, Halal, means "adversary." The passage in Isaiah (the only place in the Old Testament that mentions Lucifer) uses the Hebrew term for the Morning Star (ie, the planet Venus). The passage refers to the King of Babylon sarcastically, saying that he considered himself to be like God, just as the Morning Star is a bright light in the sky, but pales in comparison to the sun.

So it may be just possible that those who think they know about the bible or it's actual meaning are actually taking words spoken by modern preachers and believing them to be accurate. The new testament itself is a collection of only four letters chosen by Constantine for the Council of Nicaea. The purpose of using this "religion" was to attempt to unite both the western and eastern Roman Empire and protect the Emperor Constantine from losing his head, as his right to the throne was highly questionable. What Christianity was in it's beginning had nothing to do with a passage to heaven, not yet a topic of discussion and hell was invented years later by an early fictional writer - Dante Alighieri, which I believe was about the fourteenth century.
 

Kit B. (276)
Thursday March 22, 2012, 12:13 pm

Ah, thank you Michael, once again logic and reason trumps irrational thinking. I have no problem with people believing as they need, let them have one or 200 gods if this helps them travel the road of life. I have only asked that it not be brought into the forums as an attempt of proselytizing or showing others how perfect they are as compared to others who have chosen their own path.
 

Michael T. (82)
Thursday March 22, 2012, 12:45 pm
And thank you as well Kit for broadening my knowledge base about where the word, and notion of sin comes from.

As an addition to your comment I have also read that since christians were in large part more learned and trained in reading and writing, he found that it was also imperative to keep them around as they were often employed in keeping tax records, and documenting legal and clerical records.

Word is that Constantine threw out the Gospels of Thomas (the Apostle), Mary (mother), and many others who were actually around during the time of this man's life (Yoshuah ben Yosef) and therefore were witnesses and chose the 3 synoptic gospels and the one from John, which consist of writings by people who weren't around. It is likely that these latter gospels were chosen because they had come into favor by the Paulinists, those who had accepted Paul's teachings, and Constantine needed as much support as he can get. Much like Romney who will say whatever the constituents of a state want to hear to get elected. He created the icon with the letter P with the plus sign and the X as a means of uniting/aligning both sides of his near failing empire which were then painted on the shields of Roman soldiers.

I agree with you that people have a right to their own private religious beliefs as well, even if they don't believe in an established god, or any god for that matter, but that it doesn't work and is out of place in such a forum as this.
 

Scarlett P. (126)
Thursday March 22, 2012, 1:01 pm
Actually I do know what I am talking about. You may choose not to believe the "truth" of the birth, death and resurrection of Christ, that is up to you. Some educated people think they have God figured out in their minds. We know God with our spirits. His words are truth and life. Education doesn't always make you smart.

Christ shed his precious blood for you and I so that we would forever be with He and the Father. I don't know why that is so hard for people to accept. His love and mercy is so amazing.

Being a follower of Christ is the "only" way for salvation...

Yes Michael, you can email all you want.. But I do have the right to say He is the only way... It is the truth and His very own words. No one goes to the Father by through Him..

I may not be as educated as many here, but I can assure you that one day I will be with the Son and the Father for eternity.

Are you just as sure of where you will be???

Isaiah 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Sorry Kit, you are wrong... There is only God, none other
 

Kit B. (276)
Thursday March 22, 2012, 1:08 pm

I have in the past submitted informational articles about or by those who have chosen a path without the religious institutions of the modern world. Therefore, when those are submitted I do expect the insecure religionists to stop by and proclaim the sanctity of their god of choice. I have in the past explained in some detail the actual historical origin of the differing religions, and even the etiology of many misused words. I see the institutionalized religions as no different than modern corporations - they exist for a profit motivation.

What I do not care for is those who use Thomas Jefferson as some sort of proof of this country being Christian. He was not a Christian did not like or allow that to be listed as his belief system.

"In spite of right-wing Christian attempts to rewrite history to make Jefferson into a Christian, little about his philosophy resembles that of Christianity. Although Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence wrote of the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God, there exists nothing in the Declaration about Christianity.

Although Jefferson believed in a Creator, his concept of it resembled that of the god of deism (the term "Nature's God" used by deists of the time). With his scientific bent, Jefferson sought to organize his thoughts on religion. He rejected the superstitions and mysticism of Christianity and even went so far as to edit the gospels, removing the miracles and mysticism of Jesus (see The Jefferson Bible) leaving only what he deemed the correct moral philosophy of Jesus.

Distortions of history occur in the minds of many Christians whenever they see the word "God" embossed in statue or memorial concrete. For example, those who visit the Jefferson Memorial in Washington will read Jefferson's words engraved: "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every from of tyranny over the mind of man." When they see the word "God" many Christians see this as "proof" of his Christianity without thinking that "God" can have many definitions ranging from nature to supernatural. Yet how many of them realize that this passage aimed at attacking the tyranny of the Christian clergy of Philadelphia, or that Jefferson's God was not the personal god of Christianity? Those memorial words came from a letter written to Benjamin Rush in 1800 in response to Rush's warning about the Philadelphia clergy attacking Jefferson (Jefferson was seen as an infidel by his enemies during his election for President). The complete statement reads as follows:

"The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes, & they [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: & enough too in their opinion, & this is the cause of their printing lying pamphlets against me. . ."

Jefferson aimed at laissez-faire liberalism in the name of individual freedom, He felt that any form of government control, not only of religion, but of individual mercantilism consisted of tyranny. He thought that our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry."
***
http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

What these men - "our founding fathers" believed was a country must be free of forced religion, nor did they care for the idea of proselytizing. These were men of the Age of Enlightenment, an idea whose time had come. For the sake of the future of this country we truly need another Age of Enlightenment as science, mathematics and philosophy have carried us into a new and interesting time of knowledge.
 

Scarlett P. (126)
Thursday March 22, 2012, 1:10 pm
Sorry Michael my email doesn't work, will just have to come back here.. Man separated us by the many religions. Christ did not come to start a religion, He came to spread the word, love and mercy of God. I am not part of a religion... I am a christian, a follower of Christ.

No, I do not come back when I post sometimes just for this reason, Kit loves to degrade people intelligents just because they disagree with her, she has many friends who do the same.

Why should I come back? So I can see how I am disliked for my beliefs... That I am a racist because I am against Obama and his politics. Nah... I have better things to do and besides.... What people on here think of me doesn't matter.. I know that I am Blessed, highly Favored and deeply Loved by the Father and the Son. That is all that matters to me.

Michael, Kit.. I truly hope that you have a very blessed day and that one day you experience the love of Christ.
 

Scarlett P. (126)
Thursday March 22, 2012, 1:12 pm
When you remove God, as many want to, you find nothing but chaos and confusion... See anything like that going on now in the United States of America??
 

Kit B. (276)
Thursday March 22, 2012, 1:17 pm

Religion is nothing more then a philosophical idea. One can choose to make it more, that does not change it's basic facts. I have not declared that you, Scarlett are wrong, only that your comments are inappropriate. I have said to you many times believe as you need, just do not try to force that on others. It's a foolish waste of time.

Education does in fact, enhance ones thinking and ability to reason and use critical thinking skills. As I am not intimidated by your beliefs, why then should you be so intimidated by mine? I have no interest in attempting to convert anyone to believe or think as I do, my mind and philosophy are secure, I need no others to support or reinforce my choices. Actually, Scarlett as all of this is nothing more than a philosophical difference neither of us can be right or wrong, only making choices for differing ideas.

Actual history, not revisionist history, however is not wrong.
 

Scarlett P. (126)
Thursday March 22, 2012, 1:22 pm
I'm sorry Kit, but I am right, there is one way and one way only.. Through Christ...My salvation comes through him and I cleansed because of His shed blood. I am not trying to force anyone to believe... I am just stating what I know as the truth.. You are free to believe it or not... If you don't, well that doesn't make it any less true... God is still God and there is still only One.. :-) Kit He still loves You!!
 

Kit B. (276)
Thursday March 22, 2012, 1:24 pm

Frankly, my dear I have no desire to believe in what is most probably a fictional character. However, your post script does belie your need to constantly reinforce you own need, your lack of security of those believes.

I do know a few on Care2 that have very secure beliefs and have yet to see them attempt to force them on others. For these people their personal beliefs are just that personal and private, only insecurity would cause one to leave the little messages - often impolite that you leave.
 

Scarlett P. (126)
Thursday March 22, 2012, 1:34 pm
LOL... I am secure in my faith and the love of the Lord...

I have no desire to continue discussing this with you as you think you have God all figured out..

I do have the right to come on here and express my beliefs where I please... I mean that is what freedom of speech is all about..

Probably a fictional character?? But you are not 100% sure are you?? LOL... One day my friend.. Christ will come back to rule and reign... I do hope to see you there along with the rest of us!! I truly mean that with all my heart... He is not willing for anyone to perish... God so loved, He so loved, He still loves..
 

Michael T. (82)
Thursday March 22, 2012, 1:53 pm
Bravo Kit. I was just reading that passage in a book I have of the writings of Jefferson last night before going to bed. Scarlett, if your email doesn't work, how do you even know I sent you something? You state you know what you are talking about, and that this makes what you believe as truth. There are 3 kinds of truth Scarlett, personal truths, world truths and universal truths. Yours is a personal truth, thus not a world or universal truth, and thus, a belief. You wake up each day and discover that you still have brown eyes (or whatever color they are). That is a personal truth. See? No, of course not.
Your statements about being educated as being the downfall of people who donít accept your belief is not unusual. And I am not certain you really want to make that claim. Educated = Sinner/disbeliever damned to hell. Uneducated = The only saved people. You see how that scans? Lastly, Kit hasnít tried to degrade you at all. She is merely pointing out your militant need (and as seen in others of like mind) to shove your faith in our faces as inappropriate. I note with interest your choice to present yourself as a warrior. I somehow wonder how that squares with being a compassionate, tolerant, accepting follower of the teaching you espouse?
 

Kit B. (276)
Thursday March 22, 2012, 2:00 pm

Of course, Scarlett. For those who lack depth of knowledge the easy and simple path is religion. I really have zero interest in your beliefs or your need to constantly, insecurely make your pronouncements of your god. Carry on - enjoy yourself. Indeed, for now we do have freedom of speech. However, I do believe that freedom or not there is a time and a place for discussions on religion, politics and sex. This article touches more on the proper decision of a judge to uphold the law for people who care not to have their child forced to pray.

I would think that any religious person would know that a forced prayer, as in the days of the Inquisition is meaningless. A true communication with a god-like character would seem most sincere in silence.

Each morning I would begin my classes with a moment - actually 60 seconds of silence. This allows for a student to pray or just get their thoughts prepared for the day. One can not force any one to believe.

Do I think from years of study that Jesus is fictional - as there are those with actual birth records and death records of the time, it is highly likely that Jesus is simply an accumulation of perceived "miracles" performed by many "wandering" teachers of the day. You must of course, be well versed in actual history and really know and understand the reasons for and use of the bible and religion from it's early sources. I would recommend some reading, but honestly why bother? Again, your beliefs do me no harm, I am glad they help you get through this life.
 

Scarlett P. (126)
Thursday March 22, 2012, 2:02 pm
Michael I can receive mail, I can not send out. LOL.. love the way you twist the education statement.. As you can see there has been no anger, no name calling no degrading on my part at all. I have just stated the truth. Not just my truth but there are many christians who know the truth also. As I said to Kit... Christ is returning to rule and reign on day.. I hope to see you there with the rest of His bride. God so loved the world He sent His only begotten Son... So that You and I could live eternally with Him... Hope to see you there Michael... Saying this with a loving heart...
 

Kit B. (276)
Thursday March 22, 2012, 2:03 pm

So sorry Michael, I didn't mean to be redundant in what you stated. I had not seen your post before I wrote that.
 

Scarlett P. (126)
Thursday March 22, 2012, 2:06 pm
I am enjoying myself... I love to talk about my Lord.. His love, mercy, His desire for a eternal relationship with Him, one that I seek constantly and no... I am not insecure as you keep saying... LOL...But as I seem to be wearing my welcome out... I will go and wish you a very blessed week...
 

Kit B. (276)
Thursday March 22, 2012, 2:16 pm

I see reality for what it is and really do have luxury of delusions of grandeur. I don't want to be with you and the other "brides" as I do know that I, like all other life on earth will die end of story. I do not see my ideas or conclusions as being more correct then any other conclusions. I base my thoughts and conclusions on science, mathematical proofs and the single exhilaration of philosophy. The opening and pleasure of learning, growing and in the process becoming ever more accepting of oppositional thinking.

I wish for a world without religion of any form - then maybe at long last this weary battle torn world will have true peace. I grow bored from listening to and reading the endless justifications of righteousness by each religion. The true teachings of your Jesus would find all of this appalling, he or the representation of him - is a man of gentle spirit and peace.
 

Kit B. (276)
Thursday March 22, 2012, 2:18 pm

** editing such a pesky thing - "I do not have the luxury....
 

Kit B. (276)
Thursday March 22, 2012, 2:20 pm

When confronted with actual facts, they do leave. Wearing out your welcome? Did someone say that? I didn't see that in any of the comments nor did I see any one using ad hominem attacks.
 

Michael T. (82)
Thursday March 22, 2012, 2:21 pm
I don't think I twisted anything. I was mirroring your own words back to you in a reflection. And, while you claim you have not engaged in being angry without name calling or degrading on your part I beg to differ in a way. It is degrading to me to be told time and again by people like you who authoritatively state that this is the way, the only way, and that I am damned (either overtly or by conclusion) for not accepting your belief absent of truth. As far as seeing me there which I presume you to mean in an afterlife, that may likely happen, but I will be up the road a piece waiting for you to shed this earthly belief system in the afterlife so that we can have true discussion. It is people like you who insist on making every discussion about your own personal and unsubstantiated belief. All you do is demand authoritatively that this is the only way things are. That's degrading and arrogant which is a form of anger, and it implies that I am damned. That smacks of name calling.
 

Michael T. (82)
Thursday March 22, 2012, 2:32 pm
On an additional note Kit, and I am sure you saw it, I found this article on AlterNet
How Religion's Demand for Obedience Keeps Us in the Dark Ages
http://www.alternet.org/story/154604/how_religion%27s
_demand_for_obedience_keeps_us_in_the_dark_ages?akid=
8446.1070144.fixsaB&rd=1&t=8
 

Scarlett P. (126)
Thursday March 22, 2012, 2:33 pm
LOL Kit... Your facts do not bother me, I know the truth and the life in The Word... I am actually leaving soon for bible study... If you and Michael want to keep this conversation going... Please do... I am actually leaving now, going to fellowship and worship the Lord in bible study... Pray you and Michael have a very blessed night...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBcg3cFWUUI&feature=youtu.be

Here is a link where you will see my church and Bro Jerry teaching... You are welcome to listen.. It's in 3 parts.

 

Kit B. (276)
Thursday March 22, 2012, 3:09 pm

I have said the same thing on many occasions, Michael. It is offensive and an attempt to degrade the other by being "better than" when in fact the only truth known is that currently we live on one planet and all share the common trait of being human. The rest lies within the realm of choice. By iterating that we are being prayed for in complete opposition to our stated choices is yet another insult. Yet, I have come to understand that this is the only option for those who are closed to education or reality. One must wonder about those bible classes that teach superiority and supremacy rather then concern and love of one's fellow human being. Wouldn't a true Christian be filled with humility and lack pretentiousness? Just a thought from one who has actually studied the bible.
 

Michael T. (82)
Thursday March 22, 2012, 3:52 pm
Yes Kit, one would think. If one thought. I have rarely seen humility and lack of pretentiousness in true christians. I have met several who do practice and act in such ways, but the remainder have been militant, overbearing, authoritative well, the list goes on. The latter always seem to pose as our superiors and look down upon us in their behavior. And they just are unable and unwilling to see that. After a while I was convinced I was trying to reason with a child who using christian verbiage was literally sticking her tongue out, giving us the raspberry with her words. I also suspect that she had to shout her dogma to drown out anything we had to say begging her to open her heart and ears to what we were saying. Sigh. I have to remind myself that in regard to such people we truly cannot alter their play. They are the unhappy ones and walking in a sleep of their own choosing.
 

Lydia Weissmuller Price (181)
Friday March 23, 2012, 7:14 am
When you truly have faith you don't need to validate it by converting or attacking others. The proof is in the pudding.
 

Val R. (248)
Friday March 23, 2012, 2:58 pm
It amazes me with all the religions out there that I must be saved. If I need to be saved it is from those trying to save me.... I agree Kit - everyone can have their own beliefs - I believe in a Creator - so what - that's it - that's all I need to share - the rest in mine - now for the issue at hand - religions should ONLY be involved in schools if it is a religious school - taught at a Catholic school once (not even Catholic and couldn't teach that part) but and had Catholic 'stuff" on holidays but basically wasn't in the curriculum otherwise - they didn't even care if I was Catholic nor tried to tell me I had to be - I had the qualifications they needed. Sorry to go on. School and church needs to be separate.
 

Kathy Javens (104)
Friday March 23, 2012, 6:40 pm
As a good christian, he never should have said anything to apologize for in the first place, then none of this would have happened.
 
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