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Why Israel and Hamas Want To Go To War

World  (tags: 'CIVILLIBERTIES!', 'HUMANRIGHTS!', blog, conflict, death, freedoms, government, israel, middle-east, palestine, politics, society, terrorism, UnitedNations, violence, world )

- 1889 days ago -
The escalation of violence in Gaza will have a predictable outcome. The winners of this war will be both Hamas and the Israeli Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu. Once again, cynical political calculations on both sides has triggered a cycle of-->

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Kit B (276)
Monday November 19, 2012, 5:00 pm
(Israel bombs two Gaza media buildings. November 18, 2012 - Updated 1146 PKT

The escalation of violence in Gaza will have a predictable outcome. The winners of this war will be both Hamas and the Israeli Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu. Once again, cynical political calculations on both sides has triggered a cycle of “attack and response” that will consolidate their bases of support and further diminish the prospect of a peace process.

When faced with an external threat, every nation rallies around their government and army. This conflict will draw attention away from the disastrous performance of Hamas, which has failed to improve the quality of life for Palestinians in Gaza or push Israel to end the blockade.

Hamas has been marked by infighting between the leadership inside Gaza, represented by Ismail Haniyeh, and the leadership outside Gaza, represented by Khaled Mashal. They are struggling over the question of who is the legitimate leader of Hamas. Historically, the political arm of Hamas was outside Gaza, while the military arm was inside. Today, these boundaries are in flux. This conflict will allow Haniyeh to be seen as the challenger of Israel,and the natural leader of Hamas.

On the Israeli side, Netanyahu, who will run in elections next January, leads on a hawkish platform that prioritizes national security ahead of social or economic issues. He will be seen as a savior that stood up to Hamas.

Without any negotiation perspective for the future, the real loser will be the Palestinian Authority, led by Mahmoud Abbas. This conflict will overshadow the PA’s move to gain observer status at the United Nations, which will be a diplomatic and legal nightmare for Israel, opening the door for the International Criminal Court to investigate and prosecute Israeli leaders every time they operate in the Palestinian Territories.

Israel is putting enormous pressure on the U.S. and Europe to cut foreign aid to the PA, a dangerous strategy given the number of Palestinians on its payroll. Ultimately, if aid is stopped, we will see even in the West Bank an increase in the power of Hamas, who with the conspicuous amounts of money received from Gulf countries will be the only one able to pay Palestinian salaries.

This political dance between Netanyahu and the PA started a year ago when Abbas submitted his bid at the United Nations for Palestinian statehood. Netanyahu tried to undercut Abbas by negotiating directly with Hamas over the fate of captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, despite having promised to never negotiate with Hamas. As it was put to me by Yaccov Perry, the ex-head of Israeli Internal Secret Service Shin Bet, Netanyahu’s move was designed “to f**k Abu Mazen.” A thousand Palestinian prisoners were released in exchange for Gilad, showing Hamas as a hero capable of achieving results.

Playing a cynical game on both sides, Hamas and Netanyahu simply want to preserve the status quo and win the next round of elections. Such an approach is particularly dangerous given the new makeup of the Middle East. Israel’s position in the region is now more unstable than ever. There is no one left such as Mubarak to broker a cease fire between Israel and Hamas or contain extremist groups. King Abdullah of Jordan, facing rising tensions within his own country, cannot afford to be seen as a negotiator with Israel. Mohammed Morsi, the new President of Egypt, will try to distance himself from Mubarak’s policies.

Former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, stressing the importance of both security and a negotiated peace, said that Israel must “pursue the peace process as if there is no terrorism, and fight terrorism as if there is no peace process.”

This philosophy has been long dead among the Israeli leadership, which has been using the strategy of fear and military confrontation, fighting violence and extremism without acknowledging that they are the byproduct of the Israeli military occupation.

by Rula Jebreal at the Melissa Harris Perry - MsNBC web-site

pam w (139)
Monday November 19, 2012, 5:55 pm

Kit B (276)
Monday November 19, 2012, 5:57 pm

It's in the language of those who make war. There is no good side to war.

Angelika R (143)
Monday November 19, 2012, 7:02 pm
The last sentense a t least brings it to the point. Yes, JL, neither do I and that also goes for Mursi. . . I so hope that the PA's bid at the UN will be sucessful, that's what the petition I recently circulated was about.Thx Kit, at times it is nice to see how MSNBC is distinct from NBC

Shelly Peterson (213)
Monday November 19, 2012, 8:30 pm
there is alot more to this, than just what is in the posted article...and I am trying to learn and update myself to REAL FACTS...(and I love MSNBC...and I have tremendous respect for Prof. Harris-Perry!!)...I read an article yesterday which i saved in favorites..will share in another comment...after putting so many facts through the sieve of reality:...............A.) If you are an Israeli or ANYONE living in Israel, YOU must be tired of HAMAS..bombing!!..they are trying to get support and recognized by the "Muslim Brotherhood" , from the Turks and now Eygpt, which is why Obama has called on both governments, to "reel" HAMAS "IN" and tell them to stop shooting Israel!! (the USA money from the Obama Administration has gone to Israel for building and continued improvements of the "iron dome" which has been very effective of stopping HAMAS rockets & shelling and saving 1000's of innocent lives)...HAMAS is just playing it's terrorist indivigual political games at the expense of the Palestinian people, trying to "push Egypt & Turkey" into showing whom they will support....and today, as usual..several news sources CONTINUE to add Hezbollah=Iran/Syria into the mix..which hate Israel and could care less about Palestine.....(Like the GOP polititions here in the USA caring about America's Citizens...just selfish, polititions with their own power hungry adgendas, not for anyone's people let alone the ones that they "supposedly represent"..just big Bad Murdering Bullies/GANG BANGERS ON AN INTERNATIONAL BASIS AND WANT TO BE RECOGNIZED...why HAMAS won't STOP throwing rockets and bombs...just International Gang-Banger Wanta-Be_ Recognized"...a group of terrorists, that circumvented the polls to come into a "psyudo place of power" using PEOPLE TO SHIELD THEMSELVES...........HAMAS ARE JUST LIKE TALIBAN.....

Cam V (417)
Monday November 19, 2012, 8:40 pm
Indeed Shelly. Just another Muslim sect of terrorism. I think that Iran is using Palestine and the people there as pawns to keep the eye off of what they are doing because the biggest danger in the middle east IS Iran. Israel as the only democracy there is surrounded by countries who HATE THEM simply because they are a democratic country. Then there is the religious fight about who the better caretaker of Jeruslem would be. Which of course is Israel.

How would we like it if our next door neighbour had a bone to pick with us and continued to pelt our house with rocks? What would we do? How long would we put up with that trying to be a good neighbour before we decided to take action? What would that action be if all attempts at negotiation had failed? Would we tolerate the rocks? I don't think so. Now move that thought to missiles coming after your family and reset the whole picture. What would we do then? Why whatever it took .....

As the saying goes until the radicals in the Muslim sect LOVE their children MORE than they hate the Jews there will never be peace in the middle east.

Kathy Chadwell (354)
Monday November 19, 2012, 9:09 pm
Here's a thought,
War never solves anything but if they must,, stop hurting the innocent who have nothing to do with it.
Pick a common, uninhabited area, put on uniforms and have at it. I suggest the leaders
of both sides lead the charge.

RR Sutton (7)
Monday November 19, 2012, 9:30 pm
I don't often agree with you, Cam, but your comment deserves a green star.

Alexander W (53)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 5:30 am
Kathy, this is not what Islamist terrorism is about. Hamas hides behind people, hospitals or schools to shoot at Israeli people, hospitals and schools.

Leaving such murderers in power never solves anything either.

Danuta W (1248)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 5:48 am

Kit B (276)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 6:05 am

Kathy, that is an excellent idea! Hamas, can not be called leaders, they have done no favors for the people of Gaza. However, with the incredible military might of Israel, and the ability to "woo" the people of Palestine by helping them, Hamas would have long before now lost all power in Gaza. As Israel remains implacable to any form of compromise, the Palestinian people are left with few choices. When one is desperate, they make poor choices. The people of Gaza have every reason to fear Israel, but they have learned that Hamas does not act in their best interest either. Perhaps, an answer lies with Mahmoud Abbas, President of the Palestinian National Authority, a man that has shown more cautious leadership.

If someone has actually answers to this situation of 64 years, than perhaps a well written letter to the UN would be of more help than just calling every one not Jewish a terrorist.

Kenneth L (314)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 6:13 am
I agree with most of what Shelley and Cam said. How do you stop a group (Hamas) whose stated intention is obliterating your nation? Now, as stupid as they are, how could they possibly think they can cause any great effect against Israel....with a few rockets? Just pisses people off. Monkeys throwing coconuts at a tiger. However if Iran gets a nuke ( if somehow, some way) Hamas must be drooling at that prospect.....

For anyone who is unwilling to EVER use force, why would anyone own a handgun?. Couldn't you just reason with the assailant? Use peaceful (non-force) means per the mantra of peace and never aggression (like Ghandi).

While it's fine to sacrifice oneself in the face of force, your responsibility for others that may be affected by your philosophy also exists...

ex. Your child is at some distance from you. A person is a hundred feet away from them and slowly advancing towards them with a knife, telling you they are going to kill your child. You have time. Time to reason with the person, talk to them, yell at them, say any idea or words you can possibly think of to change their mind or intention....yet the person, for whatever reason, doesn't stop, and keeps advancing to your child. Eventually you have one last resort. Try to stop that person with force.

A person must be willing to use force and never have to use it. Unwilling to use force? You will be under the control of anyone who uses it on you. .

Alexa R (319)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 6:26 am
Send a Green Star to Kenneth L.
Sending a Green Star is a simple way to say "Thank you"

You cannot currently send a star to Kenneth because you have done so within the last week.
Kenneth L. (280)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 6:13 am
I agree with most of what Shelley and Cam said. How do you stop a group (Hamas) whose stated intention is obliterating your nation? Now, as stupid as they are, how could they possibly think they can cause any great effect against Israel....with a few rockets? Just pisses people off. Monkeys throwing coconuts at a tiger. However if Iran gets a nuke ( if somehow, some way) Hamas must be drooling at that prospect.....

Alexa R (319)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 6:26 am
Send a Green Star to Shelly Peterson
Sending a Green Star is a simple way to say "Thank you"

You cannot currently send a star to Shelly because you have done so within the last week.

Barbara DeFratis (23)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 6:27 am
To Tell the Truth, I do not know what to make of this. After all, We Also Have The Israeli Propaganda machine in full gear.
What can I say; I am working on my first novel--Historical Fiction--a novel which leads up and includes the War of 1812. This is why I have been reading as many Historical Military Magazines as possible--That is how I ran into THIS AD--->
You deserve a factual look at ((((THE MYTH OF "SETTLEMENTS")))


Craig Pittman (52)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 6:32 am
I agree with you in principle Kenneth. The key factor is always the degree of force necessary to act as a deterent. When violence is used to promote a cause, for political or economic gain then of course it is always the innocent who suffer. Provocation has been used in most conflicts as an excuse to ramp up the military and fan the popular support for a war.
It is all so very sad.
Thanks Kit for this insightful article.

Gloria picchetti (304)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 6:39 am
How is it one side loses three adults but the other side loses hundreds of women & children? That is not a war it's murder.

Barbara DeFratis (23)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 7:01 am
CONTINUED---> "One of the enduring myths about the Arab-Israeli conflict is that the "settlements" in Judea/Samaria (often called the 'West Bank') are the source of the conflict between the Jews and so called 'Palestinians'. If that problem were solved--in other words,If Israel would turn Judea/Samaria over to the 'Palestinians'--peace would prevail and the century old conflict would be ended." . . . .

"Most of us, regrettably perhaps, are too worldly and too 'sophisticated' to put any stock in the argument that the territories in question, Judea/Samaria are indeed the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people and that they were promised by God to Abraham and his seed in perpetuity. Jews have lived in that country without interruption since Biblical times. There is no reason why they shouldn't live there now. Why should Judea/Samaria be the only place in the world (except for such benighted countries as Saudi Arabia) where Jew cannot live?" . . . .
BY THE WAY The Ad was paid for by The FLAME--"FLAME is a tax exempt, non-profit, educational 501 (c)(3) organization. Its purpose is the research and publication of the facts regarding developments in the Middle East and exposing false propaganda that might harm the interests of the United States and its allies in that area of the world. You tax deductible contributions. . . . "


Tamara Hayes (185)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 8:15 am
So many great comments here. I just can't believe that peace will ever exist between Israel and Hamas. Wars over land have existed since the beginning of time. And I have to agree with Shelly, Cam and John. I think Iran is playing the distraction game. And Kenneth, I think you stated it very well as well. This is a many faceted war and ultimately the innocents will always lose and the power games will continue, and when Iran is ready, they will be the ones in control.

Kit B (276)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 8:44 am

No, John I didn't read it wrong, I am not stupid nor do I close my eyes to any of the violence. If you think that only Iran contributes to this situation, you are mistaken.

Ken, to compare self defense of person to war, is at best an exaggeration at worst, a completely lack of information about the history and complexities that lead nation's to wars.

Barbara De Fratis - one of the many problems is the settlements. Excluding any one issue and you have an incomplete idea of the history and the hostilities.

Barbara DeFratis (23)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 8:56 am
Yes, Kit B., I do have an incomplete picture of what is happening there--That Is My Problem--All I am hearing accusations and counter-accusations. I grew up being told that we should support Israel, but even I have caught deception being used on their behalf--This Is Why I am beginning to think that perhaps first step should be stopping the shootings (ALL the killings on both sides) then sort out what is what.

Kit B (276)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 9:08 am

Beyond the bombs and killings from both sides, this is war of propaganda.

I too grew up and absolutely believed that Israel should defended, even when I had my doubts. I have taken my own time over the years to face a bitter truth. Yes, Israel is guilty of using deception and self-promoting propaganda and Hamas is a terrorist organize, not fighting for the Palestinian people but using their plight.

I can recommend many books written by Jews and most are very balanced. Those that lean away from history are no longer of interest to me. I wish to know facts. This blog posted here is rather balanced, considering the current situation. We are but observing the tragedy being endured by those who are non-combatants.

Alexa R (319)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 9:22 am
Kit B. (293)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 9:08 am

Beyond the bombs and killings from both sides, this is war of propaganda.


EXACTLY!!!!!!! Watch this video clip to hear the Hamas propaganda in their very own words ...


by Itamar Marcus and Nan Jacques Zilberdik

In response to Israel's Operation Pillar of Defense that aims to cripple the terrorist infrastructure in Gaza and protect Israeli civilians[NOT JUST JEWISH CIVILIANS, but Christians, Arabs, Palestinians, etc, etc ALL Israeli civilians], Hamas' military wing, the Al-Qassam Brigades, has produced videos addressing Israelis.

"From the Palestinian people to the Zionists: We've missed the suicide attacks. Expect us soon at bus stations and in cafés."

[Al-Aqsa TV (Fatah), Nov. 18, 2012]

emphasis mine


Alexander W (53)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 9:25 am
Kenneth, you are 100% right. The funniest thing is, that Monkeys DO throw coconuts at a tiger. But Monkeys are smarter than Hamas: they do it where the Tiger cannot reach them. On the other hand, if Hamas wants all 72 at once, they got what they want, no matter how many of their brothers and sisters were killed.

You see, when one cannot establish a good economy and good business environment, when one fails to respect minorities there is an easy way to say "at least I was a National Hero and bombed the Jews!".


Alexander W (53)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 9:30 am
Barbara, I grew up hearing that poor Palestinian Arabs should get their own state and to live there in peace and prosperity. Then I learned, that Arabs already got 22 states, with no states providing its population with peace and prosperity.

Then I looked into the type of a country Arabs could build in Gaza and the West Bank, and saw that it will be an extremist and militant place, merciless to its population and its neighbors, leave alone the Jews whom they would kill for sport.

Then I learned, that Arab states got 99.99% of lands of the Middle East for themselves, and give nothing to Druze, Kurds and other people of Palestine and Middle East. I saw that Arabs stole the whole title of Palestinian for themselves. It's like one European nation would call itself European. Who are the others?

And then I asked, what Israel gave to humanity with its 0.01% of land, and what Arab states gave to humanity except for oil and Jihad with their 99.99% of land.

Now you know where my sympathies are, and why.

Kit B (276)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 9:35 am

Thanks Alexandra, but I have seen far too many films and videos, read too much propaganda to want to read or watch even more. I am not closed off from truth, just from propaganda. I have information sources, those I can check and double check for at least a hope of some accuracy. Haaertz is generally a very good source of current information. I pay for the subscription so I may read about Israel and not just at the time of war.

Because one does not accept that war is not the answer, or that there is answer for peace, does not make that person ANTI the people of either side of "the wall". It simply means, for me that I have yet to see any good resolution come from the pain and suffering of war.

Kit B (276)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 10:06 am

Xenophobia does limit one's ability to think and feel for others beyond one's limited scope of the world.


I have no further details but we all know that Morsi and the US have been working to find an answer to end the bloodshed.


Alexa R (319)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 10:36 am
The problem Kit, even with 'respected' or generally good sources of information is that the following sort of thing happens all too often:

BBC’s Gaza Correspondent Jon Donnison Tweets Picture of Syria Child Victim, Blaming Israel

For the Twitter uninitiated, Donnison is retweeting to his 7,971 followers a Tweet by one Hazem Balousha – a Palestinian ‘journalist and social activist’ – including a picture titled “Pain in Gaza”, to which Donnison adds his own commentary – “Heartbreaking”.

The picture is indeed heartbreaking:

Except – as has already been pointed out to Donnison – it does not come from Gaza.

Up to now, it may have been possible to put down Jon Donnison’s frequently problematic reporting to a lack of knowledge and understanding of the region.

However, his decision to promote deliberate misinformation – either knowingly or as a result of a complete failure to check facts – indicates that he is not merely naïve.

Donnison has rendered himself no longer fit for the purpose of accurate and impartial reporting from the Middle East in accordance with the BBC’s legal obligations.

Donnison simply retweeted an apology saying that the pic he tweeted earlier was in fact not Gaza but Syria.


Sorry – that is nowhere near sufficient.


Barbara DeFratis (23)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 10:49 am
I hear you, Kit B. After all, when I served in the Army Reserve from 1980-1992; I was in PsyOp- Psychological Operations, A.K.A. The United States Propaganda Department-for lack of a better word. By the way, just because I have been out of the Army Reserve for a good number of years now--that does not mean I cannot recognize propaganda when I read or hear it or that all propaganda is bad--when it is backed up by the truth it can be good, BUT When lies and deceptions are found . . . .

Kit B (276)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 10:55 am

I didn't say I used BBC or that I depend on Tweeter reports. Yes, that is one of many examples of poor reporting.

I think that videos can easily be cut and edited so those too must be double checked for accuracy.


Past Member (0)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 11:28 am
It gives me no pleasure to say this, but I can't help thinking that there are those on both sides who've been having a lovely old time these past few days as they've been itching for a fight with the enemy.

(Sadly, I've been struck how how partisan so many of the posts on this site have been in the last few days. It's abundantly clear that there have been misdeeds from both sides, yet somehow some people seem to believe that all the blame lies with one side or the other.)

Diane K (134)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 11:54 am
Thanks for article.

Kit B (276)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 12:12 pm

No Roger, I don't believe that people are glad to see death and destruction. Whether one is supportive of a "side" or just hoping for a lasting, meaningful peace, no one wants to see children maimed or killed.

Nancy M (197)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 12:46 pm
Thanks for the article Kit. YOu are right, there is no good side.

Angelika R (143)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 1:03 pm
A reminder for those bringing up Gandhi : - IDF in 2011: "we don't do Gandhi very well". No question that Hamas is a terrorist group and it is a great tragic and mistake that they were voted for. But it is as true that Israel is NOT interested in any peaceful solution and rather prefers the status quo than ever lifting the blockade and ending the occupation plus stop settlements and agree to a two state solution!
Even if I might be the only one here but I actually think that all evil sounds and threats coming out of Iran is MORE RHETORIC than real intent or action. Iranians are overall a peaceful and peace loving people who unfortunately have a very low intellectual president using loud and nasty threat language. But he has no say in politics.
What difference is there between the Islamist threat of wanting to create an Islamic empire and destroying the zionist state, as many believe, and the zionist goal of creating a "Greater Israel"/Zionist empire while preaching "only a dead Arab is a good Arab"?
The only real solution would be for Israel to destroy their nuclear arsenals as well as stopping the Iranian from making a bomb. That would end the fears of each other, even if it cannot remove the hate.
We know from the cold war era that arms race was no solution and only disarmorment leads to peace but that applies to ALL.

Janet G (0)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 1:07 pm
Sadly noted.

Yvonne White (229)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 1:25 pm
I think the main reason Americans can't understand the Middle East conflict is because (except for Native Americans) we ALL left the "old countries" to be free & prosper. Most mass migrations were caused by War &/or Famine - whole towns in Germany migrated en mass in the early 1700's... so we just don't understand why Families won't just Leave & find a Life elsewhere. It can't be all about religion, those same religions are Everywhere the people took them. So it has to be about power & control - Political Bull$hit. The common people are ALL being played - just like Americans have been since Before the birth of this nation. But it is the Palestinians who will suffer most because Americans will Never Forget WWII & the horror we saw. Our Judeo-Christian roots will not be severed, even as we as a culture have pushed away from it. The IDEA of Israel cannot be destroyed & our politicians can't abandon it. So the whole region should Know that, while many Americans - including Pres. Jimmy Carter - believe both sides should have a Country to call its own, it will be Israel's choice of when & how much. That's just the way it will be... so Hamas is worse than useless for Palestine, it is a TeaParty non-entity - causing grief with no relief..:(

Alexa R (319)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 1:33 pm
That's incorrect Angelika. Israel has continuously exchanged land in the hope to negotiate peace. First the division in a 2 state solution with Jordan, then with Egypt, then with Lebanon, then evacuating all Jews from Gaza and West Bank Block A. West Bank Block C in part of Israel and West Bank Block B is disputed territory without any form or rule/government. It contains both Israeli and Palestinian settlers. It is only in this territory where a negotiation has not been worked out between Palestinians and Israel, that Israel obviously wishes to make sure that Jewish communities that has had a 3500 presence remains and are not driven out by terrorists.

I'm not excusing settler expansion in West Bank Block B, and when final borders in West Bank Block B has been agreed between PA and Israel, then Israel will do exactly what its done in Gaza and West Bank Block A (evacuate every single Jewish person).

Israel is happy having a tiny Jewish state and has turned the desert into bloom. Israel has no desire to "rule the world" and make the entire world bow down to Judaism, subduing ever nation to itself the “Zionist Empire”, forcing those all over the planet who are not born Jewish to convert or else - that's a ridiculous notion, to say the least!


Alexa R (319)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 1:39 pm
Angelikanomail Roll (75)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 1:03 pm
A reminder for those bringing up Gandhi : - IDF in 2011: "we don't do Gandhi very well".


Knesset Chairman Benjamin Netanyahu said during a speech that “if the Arabs lay down their arms there will be no more war, but if Israel lays down its weapons there would be no more Israel.”

Netanyahu added that “Israel must create treaties with the countries of the world, based on values, interests, and strength. We must nurture our military, diplomatic and political, and spiritual strength – that is the key to our future.”


Jennifer Ward (40)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 1:47 pm
I don't think Israel wants war at all- they just want to get on with it- and they do. Israel is a tiny sliver of prosperity and progress in the tumultuous Middle East. All the Arabs and Islamists want is power and all the money they can con and squander on endless wars- their peoples are just pawns. Now Israel has developed an area the size of a small state in the USA (in some parts it is only 9 miles wide) the lazy Arabs want it. The religion and right of return is just BS- it's all about the upper echelon retaining power and stealing billions.

M B (62)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 1:54 pm
War means killing. There is no winner.

. (0)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 2:50 pm
Although I do not like the title of this article. I still believe Bibi's ultimate purpose is to break the back of Hamas. In order for the fragile Palestinians representatives to negociate, Hamas has to be driven out of Gaza.
Thank you Kit for keeping your posting in perspective.

Gloria H (88)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 3:02 pm

Every native culture claims to be the original (God favored) people. They just have to convince others of that even if they have to kill them to prove it.
Might wins over mythology every time.

Angelika R (143)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 3:13 pm
Alexandra,.Zionism is ALREADY ruling the world through the financial empire, have you not noticed?
And it certainly speaks volumes when Netanyahu chose the sequence of his words in the way he did..he unfortunately believes that military strenghts above all is the key to Israel's future, that is not the number 1 value of Jewish faith.

Mary Donnelly (47)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 3:32 pm
Thanks Kit--great post and comments.

Perhaps the Pakistanis might follow Obama's idea that no nation would accept foreign attacks on its soil, and respond to the USA's drone attacks upon Pakistani soi, similarly to the way Israel is responding to Hamas.

Alexander W (53)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 3:42 pm
Allan, I 100% agree with you. Until Hamas is driven away from Gaza, there will be no peace. Hamas is simply a party of war, Jihad and a weird cult of death.

Ray M (0)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 5:24 pm
They're disgraceful. Politics, power and money rule the world. Shameful.

patrica and edw jones (190)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 5:43 pm
Israel did not start this fracas - nor any of the previous wars. Hamas has stated - categorically - that there will never be any peace with Israel. If there should be a cease fire(truce) - it will only hold until Hamas has re-armed itself. The people of Gaza are moribund with fear - and this fear needs to be overcome in order for them to vote in a more democratic government that cares for the welfare of its people - HAMAS DOES NOT!! Then and only then could we hope for a more peaceful M.E.

marie C (163)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 5:44 pm
Can not send a green star to Kit as have done so within the last week
Well said Kit thanks for posting good interesting comments

patrica and edw jones (190)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 6:05 pm
Gloria - so far there have been 11 Israelis killed and quite a number injured. However the point it Israel does not put its civilians in harms way - but Hamas does. Thus accounting for the large number of casualites. Another point is - why are people like you so quick to blame Israel for this aggression - yet there is nary a peep out of you about the rockets fired into Israel on a daily basis.....totalling more than 13,000 since 2002. So you think it is okay for this aggression to continue? Spare me your theatrics and read more about this conflict. Hamas has stated that it will never agree to peace with Israel.

Ann Breeden (65)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 6:48 pm
Why is it that the innocents are the ones who suffer such as a 2 & 4 year old that were killed as well as their parents while these two supreme leaders want to take over each other's country?
Give them an island, some rounds of ammunition and let them have at it. Leave the innocents to live in peace.

Shelly Peterson (213)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 8:20 pm
Innocents always suffer in the face of corrupt greed and misaliegnd seeking of injust power by those that seek that power!!!.....and throughout the ages, in every major civilization, religious sect...and those innocent "Islands" of tribal people..this mindset and action ...has been called EVIL..and other names...LIKE JUST PLAIN WRONG!!!..just because it is 2012.....WRONG STILL = WRONG!!!...and why WE must stand up and say "NO!!!..NO MORE!!!" the WRONG!...AND WHY WE DO!..AND WHY WE WILL!..AND WHY WE WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO!!!...(it is 2012..IF... HAMAS wanted to be Hero's, they would perpetuate peace for all Peoples and faiths, like the Israeliis....and that is the differance! Math = Math, period...and their actions and words are the Proof!!...The new Government of Egypt and the Turks, must "rein" Hamas in, like the unruley, "gangbanger's they are!", or Hamas will put a "blackeye" on the face of the "2012 Muslim Brotherhood", if they support Hamas, in the International Communitys....unrulely childlike adults, need to be "reinned in!", especially when deadly and holding a community like GAZA in hostage, under garbage that the PEOPLE DONOT WANT!!) In the USA, Muslim & Jewish Youth are coming together, to take a stand on stopping the insanity of Hamas& Hezbollah!..and Christians, agnostistics and athiests, that want the insanity to stop, are being asked to participate!!..thankyou UNIVERSE!!! is 2012, we need Peace, in order to deal with the rest of our Global Problems...and the "terrorists"..all of them!........need to be DETHRONED!!! the people, for the people, in every Country!...Damn! ..Demacracy is a hard fought principle, and as ever changing as the TIDES of our SEAS and the Gravity of the MOON..which has balance , with ebb & flow!

Jelica R (144)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 10:07 pm
Alexandra: "Israel has continuously exchanged land in the hope to negotiate peace."

BS! I will gladly give away your property and complain that I gave everything and got nothing in return. The land "Israel has continuously exchanged ... in the hope to negotiate peace" was not their land. Israel got 56% of Mandate Palestina territory and just kept stealing more. Now, Israel holds 78% of Mandate Palestina + xx% occupied by illegal settlements on the West Bank.

Jelica R (144)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 10:16 pm
Kit B. Tuesday November 20, 2012, 10:06 am


Yup. And then, at 19:00 GMT Nethanyahu said it's not going to happen!

Although Hamas wanted a truce and hold the fire, in the last 24 hours 28 persons were killed and 250+ injured in the Gaza Ghetto.

Previous truce talks ended Nov. 14, when IDF killed a chief negotiator.

Who does not want peace here?

Alexander W (53)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 10:54 pm
Jelica, you numbers are wrong. Jordan took 80% of what was given to one Arab and one Jewish state. Now Arabs want to get piece of the 20% of the lands than Jews've got.

On Nov 14, IDF killed not some "chief negotiator", but the military commander of Hamas. Expressing my feelings, I can only say Allah Akbar! The world became a better place.


reft h (66)
Wednesday November 21, 2012, 12:03 am
Jelica R. I'm not sure where you have the idea that Israel has so much land. I've been there, and it's tiny.

Kenneth L (314)
Wednesday November 21, 2012, 2:34 am
Kit, don't tell me I have a 'complete lack of information' about war. That's pretentious, and wrong. I'm sure you don't know EVERYTHING about war.
I was asking a question regarding anyone who has the philosophy, that no one should ever use force in any circumstance (like Gandhi for example), yet might own a handgun, such as in the U.S., and how they could reconcile the two uses of force, for they are both undeniably use of force.
There would be a loooooong debate about whether stopping Hitler and Nazi Germany by force was necessary. In effect, would all the sanctions and diplomacy and meetings curtail the intention of a psychotic? So whether against one individual who is practicing 'self-defense' and a country whose leader in charge of it is practicing 'self-defense', it's a valid analogy.
So the analogy of a person acting in defense is not dissimilar in some ways to a nation as an entity acting in defense.

Kenneth L (314)
Wednesday November 21, 2012, 2:49 am
There's no dispute that to most people it's heinous for children to die in war (except of course there are people on both sides in a war who I'm sure wouldn't mind the other side's children dying), and there's no dispute that there's propaganda on BOTH sides in a war. That isn't new news. Now what is propaganda compared to what isn't, that's mostly up to viewpoint since opinions can be put forward as fact, 'facts' can be skewered, figures and numbers can be altered, they can be used or manipulated in various ways to promote one's own interests, etc. Just ask 10 different witnesses, including the two drivers of both vehicles, what 'the truth' is regarding a traffic accident.

Kenneth L (314)
Wednesday November 21, 2012, 2:55 am
Oh, and throw in a few family members of each of the two drivers too. Any bias when stating 'the truth'?

Kenneth L (314)
Wednesday November 21, 2012, 3:08 am
Facts are to be found in history? There's a whole ton of historians who would have quite a bit to say on that.. Such as how historical facts, beyond really just cold hard numbers or figures, are subject to whoever is doing the viewing and what point of view they are viewing it from. Mostly history is what is agreed upon as to 'fact' and 'what happened'.

Kenneth L (314)
Wednesday November 21, 2012, 4:31 am
Angelika, regarding Gandhi---I've always had a general good feeling for Gandhi because he was all for passive resistance and would never use force in any circumstance (I think that was his philosophy). But a few months ago I read what his advice to Churchill was when Britain was on the verge of being attacked by Germany in WW2. Gandhi told Churchill to let Herr Hitler just walk right in, lay down your arms, give him your land, resources, anything he wants (but don't give him your 'integrity' or some such idea). Can you imagine if Churchill had followed that advice? It would've become Nazi Britain instantly. And imagine if every other country followed the same advice by Gandhi, like the U.S., Canada, etc?. The whole world would have become the Nazi Third Reich instantly, guaranteed. And everyone could then thank Gandhi for such a wonderful 'peaceful' planet from that point on.
My liking for Gandhi went down considerably after that. Like I said, anyone can sacrifice themselves for their philosophy or ideology but if it affects others you have to have some responsibility there.

Kit B (276)
Wednesday November 21, 2012, 7:38 am

You are correct Ken, I do not know everything about any thing. I do apologize for that "off-the-cuff" remark, it was disrespectful.

Once Hitler bullied his way into power in Germany, all bets were off. No, he was not elected at any time, the best he did in a national election was in the low 30%, but he did have a charm that appealed to many, a force of brutes willing to work for him, and a population that by about the same number was willing to comply with whatever leader it was came to power. Neither, Hindenburg, von Schleicher, nor Gregor Strasser appealed to the masses who wanted strong leadership. To call Hitler psychotic is just too easy. Hitler appealed to many, because he spoke to restoring the national honor of the German people. Remember that after WWI, the allies nearly broke Germany financially, and did break the spirit and pride of the people, the Treaty of Versailles, was created to do just that. Hitler though consumed with cultist ideas, and highly racist, appealed to inner nationalistic pride by attempting to model his approach after 13th century knights. He reached many of the wealthiest heads of industry, whether they were Jewish or Catholic, both as we know not ideals that appealed to Hitler's most inner beliefs. Hitler was smart enough or cunning enough to use any an all support, no matter how much his personal disdain for these people.

Until Hitler began his first campaign to take the Rhineland, no one considered him much of a threat, even then after that and his moves to support Franco in Spain, the United States and most of Europe, including the UK, was willing to ignore him. Stalin did take him seriously and as you might remember for a short time did ally himself, his country with Germany.

It is true that Gandhi preferred a non-violent approach, thought he was not a stupid man and recognized that at times; even should it mean raising "plow-shares" to guns - violence was used. Churchill was an absolutist about colonialism, one can draw a parallel in thinking to the old South. The belief that "those" people could not take care of themselves and certainly had no ability to govern was a firm as concrete in the thinking. Most important was the wealth of the "empire" which was drawn from colonizing around the globe.

Much the same thinking does apply to the Palestinians and the Israelis, the leadership of each being adamant that national pride, is the course of action. Yesterday, there was that brief moment, when the news reported that a cease fire was eminent and expected by 2:00PM EST, as we know that was not to be. What happens next is in the hands of the leaders in Gaza, the Hamas and the leaders in Israel. President Morsi of Egypt and our own diplomats (led by Hilary Clinton) are working through the night to find a resolution that both sides of this can live with. Meanwhile, both sides are a conducting campaigns of destruction that most definitely is not good for the common people.

Kenneth L (314)
Wednesday November 21, 2012, 9:48 am
Don't worry about it Kit. Believe it or not, I am known sometimes for being disrespectful...well...that's putting it mildly.

Even if Gandhi wasn't totally against the use of force as you say, in some instances I guess, his advice to Churchill was his advice to Churchill, to Britain, and that was to lay down their arms and just let Hitler walk in and take what he wanted. Can't argue with what he said.

Agree about Hitler. He offered the German people order, stability, etc. I think his mantra was ONE LEADER, ONE NATION, ONE PEOPLE! or something. Now to most German people that sounded great, rational, nice, and would be welcomed....unfortunately a psychotic can say all those things too and when he has ideas in his head, there aren't any other realities, and if he has to kill all his people off to make his thoughts come true, he will and with no concern about it.

Past Member (0)
Wednesday November 21, 2012, 4:12 pm

Jelica R (144)
Wednesday November 21, 2012, 5:42 pm
@june (Wednesday November 21, 2012, 12:03 am) -- If you check, you'll see that I was not using any measure for the size of territory. I used percentages.

Jelica R (144)
Wednesday November 21, 2012, 6:43 pm
@Bob (Tuesday November 20, 2012, 10:54 pm) -- why don't you read the UN Resolution 181, then check the 1947 UN Partition plan and 1949 Armistice lines.

Here is a collection of UN and League of Nations' documents regarding Israel/Palestine, covering period from 1917 to 2012.

These documents represent the legal basis for the very existence of Israel today. You might want to correct your stance of what Israeli territory should be and leave neighbouring states and Palestinian territory out of your wishful thinking.

Alexander W (53)
Wednesday November 21, 2012, 10:08 pm
Jelica, why wouldn't YOU read these documents and see what UN was saying about resettlement of Arabs as a part of just solution.

Read about some lands than it obligated Israel to return.

But then ask a plain question: why UN suggestion to Israel is so different from the accepted practice? And if UN is so openly biased against Israel, why does Israel have to follow UN instructions?

Common sense must be a part of the solutions. When we see that 22 Arab states contribute very little to humanity besides oil ( and Jihad), and when we see that likely rulers of the new 23-st Arab state will be militant religious extremists, I would rather tell UN to reconsider their recommendations, because they are bad for the civilized world.

Alexander W (53)
Wednesday November 21, 2012, 10:11 pm
Ken, thank you for your clever comments!

Alexa R (319)
Wednesday November 21, 2012, 10:59 pm
Send a Green Star to Kenneth L.
Sending a Green Star is a simple way to say "Thank you"

You cannot currently send a star to Kenneth because you have done so within the last week.

Shelly Peterson (213)
Thursday November 22, 2012, 1:15 am
HEAR, HERE!! Kenneth, Bob and Alexandria!!!...(and this morning, a bomb was placed in a public bus in Tel Aviv..( like what Alexandra has reported that Hamas was threatening!!..and Hamas did take credit for it according to most public radio , mainstream, here in USA)...........Egypt has stepped up and said they will be the "watchdogs over Hamas "...and Israel, as to exchange of rockets.less than 4 hours later, it was reported that Egypt then said the government will do their "best" to control the "TERRORISTS GROUP " THAT IS hAMAS"...QUOTEUN QUOTE...............hamas= terrorist, murdering "gangbangers", period..they cannot political govern the Palestinians ..AND THE WHOLE WORLD KNOWS IT AND THE PALESTINIANS DO NOT WANT THEM!!..(THE ELECTIONS WERE CO-ERCED AND RIGGED!!..AND PEOPLE WERE MURDERED AND TORTURED FOR NOT GOING ALONG WITH HAMAS, JUST LIKE THEY ARE NOW!!!!!!!)..ISRAEL!!...IF THE ROCKETS DONOT STOP FROM HAMAS,....GROUND WAR IT IS!!ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!! AND HAMAS HAS MURDERED TOO MANY PEOPLES AND IS THE TOTAL STOP OF PEACE!! ....ENOUGH!...(..and if they donot listen to Egypt!?!..that they have the ony hope for support..that just told HAMAS TO STOP IT, NOW!!!!...well, HAMAS, YOU BETTER RUN FOR IT, CUZ NOW YOU WILL HAVE EGYPT AGAINST YOU TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Past Member (0)
Thursday November 22, 2012, 7:44 pm
Noted. Thanks for posting Kit ! Much appreciated

Jelica R (144)
Thursday November 22, 2012, 9:02 pm
I've read the Res. 181. in two languages, and the documents that preceded it. I do understand.

If Israel rejected every UN resolution as biased, isn't it time to reject theRes. 181 which gave them other people's land and dismantle a state of Israel?

Israel rejects most of the International treaties, which it was more than happy to sign to be accepted in the international community, and now so blatantly ignore it's own written promises. It is a runaway country and reminding Israel of it's obligation is not biased. Every other state in the world is obligated to respect some rules and signed treaties and reminding them if they fail is not biased, it is only fair.

Kathy Chadwell (354)
Saturday November 24, 2012, 12:30 pm
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