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George Zimmerman Case Puts Hate-Crimes Law in Spotlight


US Politics & Gov't  (tags: americans, Civil rights, culture, crime, hate, law, Obama, Zimmerman )

Kit
- 433 days ago - politico.com
The hate crimes law President Barack Obama championed and signed in 2009 makes it easier to pursue a federal criminal case against George Zimmerman over the death of Trayvon Martin.



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Comments

Kit B. (276)
Tuesday July 16, 2013, 6:15 am
Photo Credit: Reuters


The hate crimes law President Barack Obama championed and signed in 2009 makes it easier to pursue a federal criminal case against George Zimmerman over the death of Trayvon Martin.

But whether or not the the ongoing Justice Department investigation into Martin’s killing results in a prosecution under the statute — which many experts doubt it will — the measure may soon grab the legal spotlight anyway: There’s a growing sense that one of several simmering challenges to the hate crimes law will be taken up by the Supreme Court.

That’s because the expansion Obama green-lighted in 2009 is under attack by conservative legal activists who contend the Constitution doesn’t give the federal government the authority it now claims to prosecute race-based hate crimes anywhere they occur, even when the events in question have none of the traditional elements used to invoke federal jurisdiction sympathetic to that argument.

“Hate crimes often get a lot of public attention and every time someone is acquitted there is a call for federal authorities to step in,” said Gail Heriot, a member of the U.S. Civil Rights Commission and a law professor at the University of San Diego. “That gives me concern…I don’t want to see a world where the prosecution gets two bites at every apple.”

When Obama signed the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act in the East Room in October 2009, it was the first-ever inclusion of crimes based on sexual orientation — an issue so controversial it lingered in Congress for more than a decade — that grabbed the headlines.

But that addition wasn’t the only notable change to the law. The other was the removal of a longstanding requirement that such crimes have some connection to interstate commerce, or to “federally protected activities” such as voting or applying for federal benefits.

The decision to allow prosecutions without what lawyers call a “federal nexus” was an “extremely important” development, said a former Justice Department Civil Rights Division official Samuel Bagenstos.

“The problem federal prosecutors had pursuing hate crimes in the past was that the victim had to be involved in a federally protected activity,” said Bagenstos, now a law professor at the University of Michigan. “….We ended up arguing sometimes that walking on a public street was a federally protected activity.”

And so the fact that the deadly encounter between Zimmerman and Martin took place in a gated community, on private property, would have made it difficult to prosecute Zimmerman under pre-2009 laws — but not under the statute passed four years ago.

Of course, said Bagenstos, that would not necessarily be the biggest problem in prosecuting Zimmerman, the Florida neighborhood watch activist acquitted of murder charges in state court on Saturday. The former No. 2 in the Civil Rights Division said a major concern would likely be the lack of direct evidence that Zimmerman was motivated by race in the confrontation that ended with him shooting Martin.

“The standard paradigm to prove racial intent is the defendant made statements about the victim’s race, or an attack by a group of people who went out together looking for a person of a particular race,” Bagenstos said. “It’s difficult to prove a case like this where two people were involved and there are no other witnesses: One is dead, and the other one doesn’t have to testify.”

But the hurdles facing any potential Zimmerman prosecution aren’t the Justice Department’s only hate crime headaches.
****Page one of two---please continue reading at VISIT SITE****


By JOSH GERSTEIN | Politico |



 

Arielle S. (317)
Tuesday July 16, 2013, 8:17 am
Hate in any form is ugly and destructive and needs to be stopped.
"Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love; this is the eternal rule." ~ Buddha
 

Jae A. (323)
Tuesday July 16, 2013, 8:46 am
You cannot currently send a star to Kit because you have done so within the last day.
:-(
 

Jim Phillips (3209)
Tuesday July 16, 2013, 11:27 am
Hear Rachel Maddow explain background on civil and hate crime

NAACP President calls for civil charges in Trayvon Matin death

How the DOJ may and/or could get involved.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/26315908/ns/msnbc_tv-rachel_maddow_show/#52485110

Ty, Kit.
.
 

Barbara K. (84)
Tuesday July 16, 2013, 12:00 pm
This became a hate crime as soon as Zimmerman armed himself and left his automobile to go after a 17 year old boy minding his own business and walking home from the store while talking on the phone to a girl. He was hurrying home to watch a basketball game, no malice on his mind.
 

Kit B. (276)
Tuesday July 16, 2013, 12:17 pm

Thanks folks. This is the worst part of all of this, just knowing that a boy only 17 was the target just because he was a black child.
 

Barbara K. (84)
Tuesday July 16, 2013, 12:42 pm
Kit, you are so correct. That is the saddest thing of all. This innocent boy died because he was walking down the street while being black. He was doing nothing malicious, and was looking forward to watching the basketball game on TV. He had the misfortune of being seen by the likes of Zimmerman.
 

l L. (1)
Tuesday July 16, 2013, 1:31 pm
Well... may he/Trayvon rest in peace.. He doesn't have to go thru this world anymore. May eternity bring him true happiness.. May his parents and family find solace and peace in knowing he is safe now... For Z's parents I pray for them. That's all I can do. That something good may come out of all this bizarre stuff that her son created; that didn't ...have to be.. all of us learn the consequences of choices.. especially the ones other people decide for our lives.. we didn't ask for.
 

Jamie Clemons (280)
Tuesday July 16, 2013, 1:44 pm
"F'ing coons they always get away"
Zimmerman
 

Lois Jordan (56)
Tuesday July 16, 2013, 2:16 pm
Noted. Thanks, Kit. I've already signed several petitions/sent letters requesting new charges for a hate crime and a civil suit. I truly hope this comes to pass. No time should be wasted dilly-dallying around, either. This should be taken up immediately. People are very angry.
 

Diane O. (148)
Tuesday July 16, 2013, 3:29 pm
I feel sorry for Trayvon's parents. He was using drugs, was suspended from school and was getting into trouble. This is why he had to go and live with his mother. Trayvon was on a downward spiral. This happens to many young black males and it is unfortunate. The black on black murders are a huge issue especially in Chicago. Why do they make these choices? It's always about personal choices.

The DOJ know today that they don't have a civil case to pursue. It can't go there. And it won't.

As far as Trayvon not having to go through this world again.....Trayvon made his OWN choices. No one forces us to make a choice.

The liberals are keen on jumping on any situation that smells of racism. Why aren't you raving mad about black youths murdering black youths in Chicago? Would that be because there's no racism involved?
 

Elizabeth M. (67)
Tuesday July 16, 2013, 3:38 pm
Noted and signed. Thank You Kit.
A young black boy is dead because of a gun shot from a man that could not control himself - justice must come.
 

Roseann D. (178)
Tuesday July 16, 2013, 3:38 pm
Zimmerman had choices too Diane. It's unfortunate that he made all the wrong ones and he should pay for his crime.Everything you cited about Trayvon does not justify his murder. Zimmerman's first wrong move/choice...was getting out of his car and pursuing Trayvon when the police directed him NOT to. It was Trayvon pulling out all the stops, acting in self-defense, as anyone would do when fighting for their life.
 

S J. (116)
Tuesday July 16, 2013, 5:19 pm
This case is a pain in my heart. I shall be with all of you for justice to come.
Noted, thanks Kit.
 

jo M. (3)
Tuesday July 16, 2013, 9:23 pm
Hate is not a crime. Crime already has punishments. Why do we need hate crime laws in the first place? Clearly hate crime laws do not apply in the Zimmerman case, as there would have to be evidence of a crime to begin with, wouldn't there? A civil suit I could understand but to pursue hate crime charges is ridiculous.
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday July 16, 2013, 9:30 pm
Diane O is right
 

Nyack Clancy (436)
Tuesday July 16, 2013, 9:37 pm
Yes she is totally right when she says
"Trayvon made his OWN choices."

He was committing NO CRIME, (that was his choice)- and was still stalked and bullied by Zimmerman even after 911 told him not to- and shot directly in the heart. ALL THAT FOR COMMITTING NO CRIME!
 

Nyack Clancy (436)
Tuesday July 16, 2013, 9:38 pm
WTF- is this the society you want? I really dont like the way you look, so I think I will kill you?
 

Sue Clayton (8)
Tuesday July 16, 2013, 11:47 pm
I've read through these comments and was quite upset to see one which referred to drugs and 'it happens to many young black males'. ALL races of people use drugs, yes even WHITE people use drugs. If anyone wishes to get into comments about drugs I'll be happy to discuss it but not here.
This particular event has absolutely nothing to do with who was or wasn't using drugs. It's straight out: A young boy was shot DEAD in the street by an armed man who followed him, end of story! Mr Z SHOULD be in prison!
 

JL A. (275)
Tuesday July 16, 2013, 11:54 pm
C, O'Connor was so successful with his creation of the Archie Bunker character because he recognized that most bigots cannot see and recognize their own bigotry that is obvious to everyone else. May Trayvon eventually receive the justice he and his family deserve--if not from DOJ, at least from a wrongful death civil suit where the preponderance of evidence would show that death did not need to occur.
 

Governmental Deception (6)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 12:15 am
Government Caught Paying Protesters After Trayvon Martin Shooting To Create Race War

Judicial Watch announced today that it has obtained documents in response to local, state, and federal records requests revealing that a little-known unit of the Department of Justice (DOJ), the Community Relations Service (CRS), was deployed to Sanford, FL, following the Trayvon Martin shooting to help organize and manage rallies and protests against George Zimmerman.

http://govtslaves.info/government-caught-paying-protesters-after-trayvon-martin-shooting-to-create-race-war/
 

Governmental Deception (6)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 12:18 am
Florida Prosecutor Indicted For Falsifying Arrest Warrant against George Zimmerman”

he George Zimmerman defense has recently gotten a lucky break. Angela Corey, Florida’s state attorney and the prosecutor against Zimmerman, has been indicted by a citizens’ grand jury for allegedly falsifying an arrest warrant and the complaint that led to Zimmerman being charged with the second-degree murder of Trayvon Martin.
http://beforeitsnews.com/opinion-conservative/2013/07/florida-prosecutor-indicted-for-falsifying-arrest-warrant-against-george-zimmerman-2676118.html?utm_content=awesm-publisher&utm_source=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fl.php%3Fu%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fb4in.info%252FtAxe%26h%3DsAQHODD0Q%26s%3D1&utm_medium=facebook-share&utm_campaign=&utm_term=http%3A%2F%2Fb4in.info%2FtAxe
 

Diane O. (148)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 3:14 am
No where did I suggest that young black youths are the only ones doing drugs. My point is that a high number of black youths are in jail. The question is "why is that?" Why are many murders against young black males being committed by young black males in Chicago? Why is this happening? Who do you blame for this?
 

Kit B. (276)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 5:28 am

People that "feel sorry" are extremely insincere. You begin immediately to accuse Trayvon of being on drugs. Was he "drugged" when he was ATTACKED? No, he had traces of marijuana. Traces could be weeks or months from the time of use.

There is every reason to hope the DOJ will bring a civil rights suit.

In this town, most crime is white on white - why is that Diane? You really are a sterling example of what is wrong with America. You think you are not racist. In fact, you are the worst kind of racist. You can not even see how bigoted your comments are.

 

Nyack Clancy (436)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 5:42 am
@ Diane
" Why is this happening? Who do you blame for this?"

They are gang wars Diane, and it happens between whites as well- if real life is too much for you- rent the movie- Gangs of New York and find out a little more about the Irish.

Mafia gang wars with the Italians, as well.

Why must you find someone to "BLAME"?

No one blamed a white president when white gangs kill each other- so to blame Obama for something within the African-American community is ludicrous.

 

Kit B. (276)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 5:47 am

This is an empty argument that serves only to distract away from the obvious guilt of Zimmerman's murder of a 17 year old child, to the crimes of Chicago.

But if you want someone to blame, Diane - look in the mirror. You and people that think like you are the blame. You speak of black Americans and your mind immediately thinks crime.
 

Winn Adams (192)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 6:41 am
The verdict from the jury was unjust to say the very least. I can understand why people have protested. But, violent protest is NOT the answer. This is a hate crime for sure.
 

JL A. (275)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 9:59 am
How might Archie's scriptwriters have him view a black youth walking down the street?

Possibilities for Archie to express his bigoted and racist views:
"He was black so he doesn't belong in my neighborhood."
"He was black so he must be up to something bad."
"Everyone knows black youths do drugs so this one must've been on drugs."
"You can't trust a black youth because black youths do drugs."
"Of course he was suspicious, he didn't look like a regular person...you know, like you or me."

The list could go on and on and Archie would just display more and more of how deep his racism and bigoted views are.
 

Jason R. (60)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 10:21 am
"My point is that a high number of black youths are in jail"

You people create poverty and then complain about the guaranteed results. Isn't that an example of insanity?
 

JL A. (275)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 10:53 am
Excellent catch Jason since the research indicates that drug use is about the same for white and black youths but more who are black will be arrested and when arrested, more black youths will get incarceration sentences than their white counterparts--even for identical crimes--and those sentences will be longer and more apt to be served in adult jails and prisons than is true for their white counterparts. The data displays the pervasive racism present in the criminal justice system just as Archie Bunker displayed blatant bigotry.
 

Diane O. (148)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 3:13 pm
Not all Americans living in poverty are African Americans. Not all people in poverty commit crimes.

I am not a racist. I am a realist. Our country, for decades, has leveled the playing field for all Americans. Some take advantage of the many educational grants and have stayed focused on learning a trade or getting a degree. Others decide that they would rather be in a gang, sell drugs, use drugs and break laws. This isn't a black or white issue. It's about Americans no matter what color they are. We are ALL judged by the choices we make.

It's that simple. Stop making it racism where it isn't. Liberals love hopping on the racism train but the problem with that is that intelligent Americans know that everyone in our country has the same opportunities. Look at Obama. He made good choices. Why did he do that? From what he has said he had his share of student loans.
 

Diane O. (148)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 3:22 pm
The problem with liberals are that they are enablers. They make excuses for the slackards in our country. Many of you have degrees and some multiple degrees. Why didn't you join a gang and start shooting up drugs? Was it a personal choice? I think so. We are all the same. We all have the same opportunities. No one can hold a person down when they are intent on getting an education.
 

Diane O. (148)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 3:23 pm
Give it up, Kit. You are making no sense at all.
 

Jason R. (60)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 3:53 pm
Man arrested for having a stroke while black, left to die on jail floor
 

Kit B. (276)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 4:01 pm

I would not expect you to make sense of what I said. I would noot expect you to say anything differently than what you consider your insight.

You see a problem and search for blame. A liberal sees a problem and searches for solutions.
 

Diane O. (148)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 4:08 pm
Jason, you make comments just to have something to do....for your own entertainment.

To further your vernacular, Jason...."black woman having 5 minutes of ecstasy finds herself pregnant and the abortion clinics have been shut down by the republicans because they don't want to pay for her stupidity." The republicans think she should've made a better choice for herself by using birth control and not make her bad choice a financial issue for the taxpayers.

The taxpayers can only clean up so many bad choices before our tax dollars are funding an ocean of irresponsibility of bad choices. When do we begin to expect Americans to take responsibility for taking risks? Our jails are filled with risk takers.

Enablers.....and one day you'll run of rich Americans to pay the bills for irresponsible people.

you people never make sense to me.
 

Jason R. (60)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 4:09 pm
"Not all Americans living in poverty are African Americans. Not all people in poverty commit crimes. "

Most people living in poverty are forced to commit crimes to survive.

"The problem with liberals are that they are enablers. They make excuses for the slackards in our country."

Most people naturally WANT to work. Right now, you could call thousands of people with degrees, slackards by your narrow standards. They have given up on this corporate fascist, perpetual debt economy because they know first hand, jobs dried up starting in March of 2007.

Diane! if you want a sound, safe society, you must have a sound, educated consumer base to be at your best. Your attitude sucks. You clearly don't understand these proven facts. You drank the kool aid, dear. Put it down and step away from the republicans and their hate spreading media. It's jobs and the economy!!! The republicans are ignoring it!!! They are obstructing reform and naming post offices!
 

Diane O. (148)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 4:10 pm
Kit, why did you choose to go to college and get a degree? Why didn't you get pregnant at 14 years old?

got an answer for that? Would that have anything to do with a personal choice?
 

Jason R. (60)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 4:12 pm
I hear that all the time from the right, Kit. There's some virus or something that make some people immune to reasoning. I understand you perfectly. I always do.

I don't understand why people need to hate rather than fix. The right have no ideas as to how to fix anything.
 

Nyack Clancy (436)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 4:12 pm
If you were NOT a racist Diane, this comment of yours would have included white women, Asian women, Hispanic women and Native American women. The fact that you need to single out someone basd on RACE, makes you a RASIST, not a "realist"

Diane says-
"."black woman having 5 minutes of ecstasy finds herself pregnant and the abortion clinics have been shut down by the republicans because they don't want to pay for her stupidity."
 

Nyack Clancy (436)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 4:14 pm
But? I am open to the possibility that you may be suffering from dementia,Diane- which prevents you from grasping that.
 

Arielle S. (317)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 4:16 pm
LOL....Kit always makes sense. Maybe it's because she researches before she posts...or maybe it's because she thinks before she speaks...or maybe it's because her heart and mind are not full of hate.
 

Diane O. (148)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 4:21 pm
Kit, you love to try and discredit me but at the beginning of every day and at the end of every day you know that you agree with me. We all make personal choices and that charts our life path. I'm asking YOU why you aren't a gang member and why YOU wanted to be where you are today? Tell me that. And then tell me WHY you make excuses for those who simply don't want to do the work to become self supporting in our country. You'll no doubt come back with poverty. Well, do your research....you are a research person....and tell me how many successful Americans lived in poverty growing up.

You know it's a personal choice. Stop making excuses for lazy people who choose not to do the work to lift themselves out of poverty.

Our country is becoming a nanny state. Obama has thrown out more food stamps than any president in the history of our country. Why didn't he give them a job? Why did Obama ignore the job engine in our country, our small businesses early in 2009 and turn his attention to ObamaCare for a solid year?

I'm sure you won't have an answer for me. I'm sure you'll just say I'm a racist because that's all you can use....a race card....instead of the personal responsibility card. You hold a personal responsibility card and so do I. So do the majority of Americans.

I believe that the Hispanics in our country will far surpass poverty because they are of a different mindset. They want education. They have a strong family connection and they believe in God. They will soar in our country because they believe in hard work, whatever it takes to educate their children to have a better life in America. Meanwhile, the liberals will be making excuses for the African American community using the old work and tattered race card. No progress. Enablers......telling them it's a race issue. Meanwhile, the Hispanics are running circles around higher education, hard work and getting the job done for a future of accomplished children who will soon run our country by 2030.

Ask yourself those hard questions.
 

Catherine O Neill (73)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 4:22 pm
1st of all none of us were there. There was a trial & so be it. What gets me is Obama sticking his nose into it. Man how fast people forget what happened in Benghazi Obama didn't have much to say about that did he!!! Rant & rave all you feel like Zimmerman was found was guilty get over it
 

Nyack Clancy (436)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 4:28 pm
Like we have already said- if it were a matter of "personal responsibility"- you would address the PERSON (of any race)- rather than the race.

And Catherine- Zimmerman has NOT YET BEEN TRIED FOR HATE CRIMES- so YOU get over it.
 

Kit B. (276)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 4:38 pm

Diane, you do misunderstand. I don't care enough about you to bother to discredit you. You do just fine without any help. Your blatant bigotry doesn't need any help you just manage to put it out there.

I just need to excuse myself for a shower after reading even part of what you say.
 

Diane O. (148)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 4:41 pm
Catherine, big green star. Obama, as our incompetent president, has had to apologize four times for being unpresidential by expressing his personal opinion on a sensitive issue. He had to pick up the phone and call and apologize for opening his unpresidential mouth. I don't know about you but I'm counting the days until we can elect a real leader for the United States. Obama was a liberal prop.....never presidential material but he had a good voice. I don't know how he graduated from Harvard but he did. That's another thread.
 

Diane O. (148)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 4:43 pm
Well, obviously you do or you wouldn't address me. I want to state here that you did not answer any of my questions. That speaks for itself.

Take your shower instead of answering my questions. Create your own diversion.
 

Diane O. (148)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 4:50 pm
The liberals appear to have great difficulty in explaining why many of them have charted good life paths making good choices when they are stumping for millions who simply didn't want to be bothered with educating themselves in order to hold a job that could prevent them from being a burden on the taxpayers.

No, the liberals really don't want to discuss personal responsibility Americans. They are the bleeding hearts, the nanny state promoters in America who want the rich to pay for those who didn't have the drive to lift themselves out of a dismal future.

Look at California. People leaving the state and relocating in neighboring states. They are tired of footing the bill for the slackards and the high taxes which keep bleeding them dry to support those on the welfare dole. They have simply packed up and moved out of state. California is the poster child for America and why we need to get the democrats out of Washington DC.
 

Kit B. (276)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 5:08 pm

Why should I bother answering you? You have no interest in a discussion and only you are ever correct.

I do have a news flash for you - you will no more get the democrats out of DC than we will get the republicans out. California is doing just fine. Maybe you need to look homeward with your corrupt governor. Just keep your money in pocket or he may grab a few bucks.

Diane - put a sock in it.



 

Nyack Clancy (436)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 5:19 pm
Right you are Diane
"No, the liberals really don't want to discuss personal responsibility"

at least not with someone who's opening sentence is-
""."black woman having 5 minutes of ecstasy finds herself pregnant and the abortion clinics have been shut down by the republicans because they don't want to pay for her stupidity."

No one but the KKK is going to be willing to have a discussion with you about how "studid and lazy blacks are".
 

Carrie B. (306)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 5:19 pm
Why do so many whites kill other whites? Perhaps you should read The Trayvon Martin Killing and the Myth of Black-on-Black Crime 
 

Nyack Clancy (436)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 5:21 pm
Maybe Charles Manson might have a feisty conversation with you Diane, about "Blackie".
 

Carrie B. (306)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 5:21 pm
Diane, I notice you are trying especially hard to act stupid this evening~and you are succeeding.
 

JL A. (275)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 6:16 pm
So many more possible lines for Archie's scriptwriters to show how little self-awareness of his bigotry he has--if I knew any scriptwriters like his trying to expose racism for all to better recognize, this thread shows wonderful material along with possible lines for him explaining to Edith of why he won't apologize for being wrong.
 

JL A. (275)
Wednesday July 17, 2013, 6:22 pm
BTW--the CRS did their job well and no riots occurred. For those interested in factual information:
"The Community Relations Service is the Department's "peacemaker" for community conflicts and tensions arising from differences of race, color, and national origin. Created by the Civil Rights Act of 1964, CRS is the only Federal agency dedicated to assist State and local units of government, private and public organizations, and community groups with preventing and resolving racial and ethnic tensions, incidents, and civil disorders, and in restoring racial stability and harmony. "
There is more for those who care about facts at:
http://www.justice.gov/crs/
 

Arielle S. (317)
Thursday July 18, 2013, 6:47 am
Lordy, is there no end to you, Diane? I wasn't in a gang because we didn't have gangs in my small town - not then anyway. And I wasn't in a gang because I was white and not assumed from the day I was born to be a stupid, lazy, good-for-nothing black person. And I wasn't in a gang because I wasn't surrounded by easy guns on the street and I wasn't in a gang because I didn't have to worry about getting shot just because I was walking down the street wearing a hoodie.... Enough with the bigotry already, ok?
As for jobs - when the GOP and their big fat corporations decide there will be jobs, there will be jobs. Stop blaming Obama for the GOP greed.
 

JL A. (275)
Thursday July 18, 2013, 8:39 am
You cannot currently send a star to Arielle because you have done so within the last day.
 

Kit B. (276)
Thursday July 18, 2013, 8:47 am

Most people that did not grow up in a gang did not have gangs in the neighborhood. Though I would say that does depend on labels. The high school I attended had sororities and fraternities, if you think for a moment that is not gang style behavior you have never been in one.
 

Jason R. (60)
Thursday July 18, 2013, 9:17 am
"Stop making excuses for lazy people who choose not to do the work to lift themselves out of poverty.
Our country is becoming a nanny state."

People WANT to work, Diane. Lazy is what you hear at fox crap propaganda. You can't hide from it. Have you no shame?

The economy creates the NEED for a "nanny" state. gwbush and the republicans own and sill own the failed economy. Reagan abd bush are the ones that have created our massive debt. That baton was handed to Obama and the republicans obstruct reform. That is pure fact.

"The liberals appear to have great difficulty in explaining why many of them have charted good life paths making good choices when they are stumping for millions who simply didn't want to be bothered with educating themselves in order to hold a job that could prevent them from being a burden on the taxpayers"

Diane, you fail to consider that we are all old enough to have grown up in a prosperous America. You fail to consider many things. You let fox think for you and it shows. People WANT to work but there are no jobs and no recovery, thanks to your people. You don't get to talk like you do because you are unreasonable.
 

JL A. (275)
Thursday July 18, 2013, 9:59 am
True Kit and deaths et al related to them:
"This section includes definitions, personal stories about hazing, links to other sources of information and more.
Hazing Facts

Hazing is a plague in our society. Incidents are on the rise – particularly among younger and younger kids committing increasingly more violent acts. Take a look at some statistics:

1.5 million high school students are hazed each year; 47% of students came to college already having experienced hazing.
55% of college students involved in clubs, teams and organizations experience hazing.
Alcohol consumption, humiliation, isolation, sleep-deprivation, and sexual acts are hazing practices common across all types of student groups.
40% of athletes who reported being involved in hazing behaviors report that a coach or advisor was aware of the activity; 22% report that the coach was involved.
2 in 5 students say they are aware of hazing taking place on their campus. More than 1 in 5 report that they witnessed hazing personally.
In 95% of cases where students identified their experience as hazing, they did not report the events to campus officials.
Nine out of ten students who have experienced hazing behavior in college do not consider themselves to have been hazed.
36% of students say they would not report hazing primarily because "there's no one to tell," and 27% feel that adults won't handle it right.
As of February 12, 2010, the number of recorded hazing/pledging/rushing-related deaths in fraternities and sororities stands at 96 – 90 males and 6 females.
82% of deaths from hazing involve alcohol.


Data cited from the national study Hazing in View: Students at Risk conducted by Elizabeth Allan, Ph.D. and Mary Madden, Ph.D. from the University of Maine. The full report of both the pilot and complete national study are available "
http://www.hazingprevention.org/hazing-information.html

Jason--there is a post today reporting on a study that showed watching Fox News persons were actually less informed than those who watched no news whatsoever.
http://www.care2.com/news/member/243328992/3612004
 

Kit B. (276)
Thursday July 18, 2013, 10:04 am

Yes, there is hazing more now then all those years ago. The Greek organizations have a well deserved reputation for selecting the "right kind of people". If your family has a bit more money, you have the permission of society to feel entitled, you have permission to behave badly, you have permission to bully and taunt others. Choices? A joke!
 

l L. (1)
Thursday July 18, 2013, 11:22 am
Diane.... Zimmerman so far is lucky.. But the end is near.. near of a right to kill innocent people and get away with it.
 

l L. (1)
Thursday July 18, 2013, 11:49 am
lol; My dears; I gave it much thought about the word gangs and organizations.. You know there is strength in numbers and safety.

So I thought about what is different about the two. Nothing. Look at Fox news.. They flex their muscle and threaten the powers that be ad everyone folds.. They say you cant fight city hall because hey have all the power.. I guess you can if Zimmerman's dad is a judge and Fox News and the kkk gang has his back. So what's the difference? Nothing absolutely nothing. People join gangs to feel safe and people back up off of them and leave them alone or else. I appreciate everyone here for there knowledge and input and enlightenment.

Even tho Diane is limited; I am glad to know that thinking like hers exist. It is a match with what Fox news.It even matches with what I hear and see of the speeches the klan and skinheads sprew out. In a lot of points it is like the speeches I saw on heard Hitler and his.... sprew out.
It is a lot like what I hear and heard of those who took this country from native Americans.

I mean like..... Maybe this planet needs to go the way of the dinosaur. Cause humans can't seem to get it together.
Another thing; How long do we think people are going to keep turning the other cheek?
 

Diane O. (148)
Thursday July 18, 2013, 3:58 pm
Well, well, now.....here we go Always when I am out here on the public forum I encounter the few liberals on Care 2 who want to make excuse for those who opt not to get an education. How many excuses can you make for their choices. Many of us opted to do the hard work and get the degrees which we hoped would put us in the arena of earning what we needed to support our families.

You can make all the comments you wish to make. It never bothers me. But what you ultimately have to face is that many made good choices and others did not. So, how do we address those who simply didn't want to do the work? Do we guarantee them a lifetime of government checks funded by the taxpayers? How do we handle this?

Do the liberals have an answer for this?
 

Kit B. (276)
Thursday July 18, 2013, 6:43 pm

Strange how that reads like "do the scum have an answer for this?"

Many real answers are and have been offered to those who seek to learn and not just snub the information.
 

JL A. (275)
Thursday July 18, 2013, 6:48 pm
So true Kit. And Trayvon was 17 and still in school--I can't speak for why Zimmerman never chose to get an education to qualify for a job above security guard was it?
I would hope that those who get an education learn enough to not have to do all their talking with a gun or disrespectful attacking and playground name-calling behavior in lieu of mature and respectful discourse and discussions.
 

Kit B. (276)
Thursday July 18, 2013, 6:52 pm

Ah, but now suddenly Zimmerman wants to go to law school. I'll just bet he does. Wait till he learns that "want" is just not enough, even if you are the darling of the NRA and the GOP.
 

JL A. (275)
Thursday July 18, 2013, 7:37 pm
I did read that Kit. And I note that Trayvon had family doing well enough to live in that gated community--so his family seems to have worked hard to provide a good life for their children, too.
 

l L. (1)
Friday July 19, 2013, 8:34 am
lol.......So much misinformation.. about who is or isn't doing what and who is worthy. It is good to know at the heart of all these many abortion bills is about taxation and black irresponsible women with a 5 min orgasm. lol..p. I. tiful... Well if the most we can get out of this is awareness.. then the young should at least know what they are up against. Takes all kinds to make a world. So what is coming next the sex patrols? Shake my head.. These people must not get in office and wreck havoc on our lives.. Are these what are in these ink tanks and come up with these ideas?
These people, the NRA, idiot laws etal.. Sad part they all think they re right.
 

Dale O. (190)
Monday August 5, 2013, 3:53 am
Diane O states that: “Why do they make these choices? It's always about personal choices.”

So very astute, Diane O. Zimmerman had a choice…to listen to the advice of the police dispatcher and keep his self-important posterior solidly adhered to the driver’s seat where he could have observed the teen in the safety of his own vehicle. He chose not to do this for whatever self-important reason but he got out of the vehicle, armed with a gun and took on Trayvon Martin. Did he confront him and perhaps try a citizen’s arrest? Who knows.

Whatever happened the final act resulted in the unnecessary death of a teenager walking home. A teenager dead for what? Self-important vigilantism as in ‘whaddya doin’ walking down this street?’ If it had been a white teenager walking down that street, Zimmerman would not have made the call or gotten out of that car.

Amazing how desperate the right wing is by dragging out those red herrings about how Trayvon Martin was ‘on drugs’ etc., and etc. Even if he did smoke pot or do A, B or C in the past what relevance did it have to walking home from a store? I am sure that a lot of elected politicians these days especially those who were teens from the 1960's smoked some pot in their lives along with high powered CEO's, professors, doctors, lawyers and the cable guy along with Charlie the mechanic. Some even go around saying that he bought the tea and the skittles to mix into some drug. If he had purchased a Mars bar he would have been plotting to fly to Mars for some imagined drug deal in the minds of the right wing.

Every death from crime is frightening and alarming but the right wing can’t face the fact that there are people out there who detest blacks or that the use of guns as if they are nothing more than a toy from a cereal box for ‘solving’ every situation is also frightening. Oooooh, the Second Amendment is there and gun power is everything. Lock and load and get out of that car and pop some teenager because ‘he shouldn’t be walking home at night in the neighbourhood!’ Choices, stay in the car and let the trained professionals get out there and do their jobs. But, no…vigilante man had to get out of the car. Was a home being broken into? Hardly.

Nyack Clancy certainly gets it right, Zimmerman did not like the way Martin looked and got out of the car for no reason and ended up killing him. So, very true Jason R and JL A.

Enablers of racist attitudes keep their heads in the sand, refusing to look at painful truths as are so many Republicans and Teabaggers. Splendid making the point Nyack C, as you pointed out Diane O and her focus on the statement about black mothers.

Interesting statement made by Diane O, that those remaining in poverty are somehow ‘lazy slackers’. It is fascinating to note how much more difficult it is for the American poor to move from poverty and become upwardly mobile in comparison to other western nations. It is also interesting to note that the U.S. jails more people per capita and also for crimes that in other nations are not offences that people are jailed for. The American system is certainly getting to be a For Profit Prison system. American prisons are seen by much of the western world as a Make Work Project for tossing as many people in jail as is possible. There have to be better ways to create employment than building new prisons. The U.S. even makes the People’s Republic of China look like slackers, a fascinating accomplishment for the Land of the Free. (Especially when one is poor and in a minority group).

“Prison sentences here have become "vastly harsher than in any other country to which the United States would ordinarily be compared," Michael Tonry, a leading authority on crime policy, wrote in ‘The Handbook of Crime and Punishment.’"

The prison system has also become the dumping ground for incarceration of the mentally ill many services for them have been slashed and are often too expensive, especially for the poor.


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/americas/23iht-23prison.12253738.html?pagewanted=all


http://www.nccdglobal.org/sites/default/files/publication_pdf/factsheet-us-incarceration.pdf


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html?pagewanted=all


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility

http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/c/currie-crime.html


The U.S. is not the only country with minority populations that face disproportionate incarceration numbers.


http://thestringer.com.au/australias-aboriginal-children-detained-at-the-worlds-highest-rates/#.Uf91_ZK1GSo


http://thestringer.com.au/no-end-to-western-australias-shame-nine-times-the-rate-of-apartheid-south-africa/#.Uf92xm0k_1M


http://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2013/03/12/canadas_lawandorder_agenda_weighs_heavily_on_aboriginal_people.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/david-langtry/aboriginal-prison-human-rights_b_2879097.html?just_reloaded=1


http://filipspagnoli.wordpress.com/stats-on-human-rights/statistics-on-freedom/statistics-on-prisoner-population-rates/
 

Syd H. (48)
Monday August 5, 2013, 4:01 am
Gosh I'm tired of seeing "Personal Choices" paraded about on this site, which for one testing limits is what youth is all about.

However, I've asked Dianne O about this elsewhere... What about all those personal choices George Dubya Bush made in his youth? Where would he be without the silver spoon that rescued him and was the only reason he possibly made it into an Ivy League school because of familial preference.

Personal choice indeed...

No, the "personal choice" argument is only about chastising, dismissing and throwing it back on those who have been victimized by those who refuse compassion and want murder to remain something they can get away with. It's only aimed at those who they would otherwise be called racists, or heartless for trodding on, not at those like Zimmerman who had innumerable Personal Choices he could have made prior to robbing someone of his life and another of her son.
 

Syd H. (48)
Monday August 5, 2013, 4:21 am
Wow, you know... reading these comments all over again it seems that Diane O is advocating the killing of all people young & old who make personal choices she feels are not worthy... the ultimate punishment for any mistakes.
 

Dale O. (190)
Monday August 5, 2013, 4:32 am
Some make the personal choice of invoking vigilante justice and some juries allow them to get away with murder.
 

Jason R. (60)
Wednesday August 7, 2013, 9:31 am
Syd,
Diane shows us what people think when they let the right wing think for them. They act as if we (Liberal Progressives) can't see this. We watch in horror as they stumble through their given talking points. We lose faith as they show no ability to change that. One of humans most important tools is the ability to ask the right questions to reveal the truth.
I wonder if she "charted" her life to marry into money and join the cult. I do so because of the laziness she displays.
 

Jason R. (60)
Wednesday August 7, 2013, 9:49 am
10 Reasons Lawyers Say Florida's Law Enforcement Threw Away George Zimmerman's Case

Steven Rosenfeld, AlterNet

A growing chorus of attorneys and analysts say Zimmerman didn't face anything like a serious trial. READ MORE»
http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/10-reasons-lawyers-say-floridas-law-enforcement-threw-ryan-zimmermans-case-away
 

Syd H. (48)
Wednesday August 7, 2013, 9:56 am
Jason, I do not want to speculate on Diane's life. However, I do get a vision of the "Queen of Hearts" as depicted by Louis Carroll in "Alice in Wonderland" who runs around screaming, "Off with their heads" about everyone.

What I am seeing here is that Diane believes that because Trayvon did something at some point in his life she believes is unforgivable, he deserved to be taken out randomly no matter what strides forward he'd made or would make, for no other reason other than being on a street he would not have been if he'd made a different choice in his life. What that presumes among other things is that he might have made all the perfect (according to Diane) choices, and still might have ended up walking down that street because his mom lives there (and it should be our right to walk down the street without being shot... no matter what we've done in our past).

I suppose then Diane would say his mom deserves to have her son taken from her because she made poor choices in her life.

How many people in this world should be living in fear of that vigilante Death Sentence out of nowhere now for that kind of thinking? I'd bet even Diane has made a mistake that could be traced back to justify murder on those grounds.

~~
Louis Carroll said of the Queen:
"The Queen had only one way of settling all difficulties, great or small. 'Off with his head!' she said, without even looking round."

Live simply is not that simple.
 
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