Sunday November 8, 2009, 8:46 am
In the article:“Notwithstanding the fate of H.R. 3962, America will someday come to recognize the broad social and economic benefits of a not-for-profit, single-payer health care system, which is good for the American people and good for America's businesses, with of course the notable exceptions being insurance and pharmaceuticals.”

Good point but sadly it would have never passed.

Sunday November 8, 2009, 9:00 am

Well, he's not giving up (and neither am I) . . . but he could see that debating single-payer in the present Congressional atmosphere would have been a bad move.

Sunday November 8, 2009, 9:24 am
An amendment from Rep. Bart Stupak (D-Mich.) passed overwhelmingly, greatly restricting reproductive rights.

A stunning sixty-four Democrats joined with the GOP to pass Stupak's amendment, 240-194.

Once again, the women of this country are getting screwed over... again.

TY, "C".
.

Sunday November 8, 2009, 9:27 am

I know, Jim. Women's reproductive rights were TOTALLY sold out to appease pro lifers!

(I'm hoping that gets changed in the Senate.)

Sunday November 8, 2009, 9:50 am
FINAL VOTE RESULTS FOR ROLL CALL 887

H R 3962 RECORDED VOTE 7-Nov-2009 11:16 PM
QUESTION: On Passage
BILL TITLE: Affordable Health Care for America Act

The complete list of representatives voting on this "Health Care" H. R. 3962. Find out how your congresscritter voted:

LINK: http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2009/roll887.xml

.

Sunday November 8, 2009, 10:17 am

Well, since I live in Tennessee, and it only got ONE Republican vote, I already know how my Congress Critters voted!

(hehehehehe)

Sunday November 8, 2009, 10:57 am

 
Not that this a real surprise:
Report: 237 millionaires in Congress
 
 

Sunday November 8, 2009, 11:07 am
And now the fun really begins.. We're not out of the game! There's room to wiggle! This bill was doomed from the beginning that's why it received so many votes! It would not have made life better for those suffering health problems only opened up in a different room leading to the same despicable place.. Conyers and Kucinich still have an ace in the hole..All those online and in the field signatures that prove what the American people really want in health care. No one that signed our petitions wanted to ever have to deal with an insurer again..

We may have lost this battle but "We" will win the war! America's leaders looked bad when they weakened under GWB, assisting he and his cronies in turning our nation upside down. Americans have had enough of being used and abused by those who would, like a vampire on a feeding frenzy, take the last ounce of American blood to serve their pernicious agendas.

More work ahead of US! But, least the vote on this bill, inadequate in it's content, shows, even the legislators, dead set against health care, knew they had to do something! Now "We", the important part of this government, must revamp the health care bill to resemble, reflect that which will serve the good folks of these United States. I know the folks at care2 are up to it and many at the Dare To Dream Network are on it at this moment..

It's long overdue that "We" the people show the Washington insiders that they are finally being put on notice! No more free rides! "We"ve had ENOUGH! Aren't the lives of those "We" cherish, which they would "Dare" continue to play god with, worth fighting for?? I said no more many years ago as I experienced the pain and suffering, made ten times worse by the abusive actions of Insurers claims examiners and the courts that served them. I am more adamant about this today then ever! No more! Enough!

When Kennedy said "Ask not what your country could do for you but what you could do for your country" he was not saying give to the rich so they can spit in the face of the rest of US!. Insurance companies will not change their spots anymore then a fox in a hen house will! They're an arrogant entity and in this crooked environment believe that they can continue to do what they've been doing for many years. Call all the shots. I agree with Kucinich they're only being the pernicious creeps they've always been. The real enemy are those who sold US out. Again, mind you! I don't believe that I have to paint a picture; do I?

Thanks for sounding the alarm Carole. Some of US knew this Bill would pass! Politics don't you know. The politicians that would "Dare" continue allowing the insurers to their whims of fancy showed up in great numbers to pass this bogus bill. Typical! Works for them! No surprise there.

Good for Dennis Kucinich a man for all seasons, http://www.daretodreamnetwork.net/dennis_kucinich.htm Many folks that signed HR 676 said Dennis was the man and a smile would come across their face when his name was mentioned.. Many of the greedy up to their armpit legislators that signed yea, believe that many Americans are not savvy about the contents and will go on their merry way believing that they have being given something good. Then comes 2012-13. "We" must get the word out and we will.. Those of US who have been in the trenches for many years know that the health and welfare of American's are still in the abyss. This latest Abuse of Power will not go quietly away! Zebras do not change their stripes, neither do insurers nor turncoat legislators! Press on Dennis K! Many of US are with you! The "Question" is, Where does President Obama stand?

Sunday November 8, 2009, 11:32 am
I'm just so SAD.
Thank you, Carole [for the info, NOT the sadness.]

Rep. Dennis Kucinich is one of the ONLY ones who does good research, and is brave enough to speak out.
Namaste! xo

Sunday November 8, 2009, 2:09 pm
 
Kucinich's Brave Health Vote Vs. Obama's Failed Promise
 
"There were plenty of cowardly votes in the House last night but there was only one truly brave one. The unsung hero of the night was Ohio Representative Dennis Kucinich. Despite enormous pressure to support H.R. 3962, Rep. Kucinich did the right thing and voted 'no'. Unlike the Blue Dog votes against the bill, he did it for all the right reasons."
 







Dennis -- We need MORE like you!!!!

Sunday November 8, 2009, 2:18 pm
Men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all the other alternatives." - Abba Eban

Sunday November 8, 2009, 2:25 pm

Bless you for that wisdom, Agnes!

(I think we're rapidly approaching that point.)

Sunday November 8, 2009, 2:48 pm
There are a few out there, bless Dennis Kucinich, he must feel alone in the world in Washington DC among that bunch.
The way this all turned out does not surprise me....unfortunately.

Sunday November 8, 2009, 3:40 pm

I just wonder when people will wise up to the continuing deceptions . . .

With all the knowledge now available to us (versus the 3 channels us "old folks" grew up with, and no internet), there's NO EXCUSE for this self-hypnotism and convenient amnesia!

Sunday November 8, 2009, 4:14 pm
Kucinich is one courageous man.

Sunday November 8, 2009, 4:42 pm
I have written President Obama, twice, no responce as yet, why he never used Kucinich in his cabinet!

Sunday November 8, 2009, 4:53 pm

You didn't honestly think he'd respond: "Because he refuses to be bought," did you?

[smirk]

Sunday November 8, 2009, 5:29 pm
noted

Sunday November 8, 2009, 5:49 pm
Touché!

Sunday November 8, 2009, 7:42 pm
Noted, glad we have a good health care system in /canada !

Monday November 9, 2009, 2:37 am
 
Dennis Kucinich - Addressing Health Care on Democracy Now
On Monday, November 9th, 8:00am ET, Congressman Dennis Kucinich will be addressing Health Care, on Democracy Now - a daily television / radio program hosted by Amy Goodman. For station listings in your area and more information about Democracy Now! please visit, http://www.democracynow.org/stations
 

Monday November 9, 2009, 6:30 am
My Congressmen from VA Rick Boucher(D) voted against this bill allso. Him and Dennis Kucinich are the only ones that actually read the bills they vote on.

Monday November 9, 2009, 6:51 am
Just one little thought from a European who had national healthcare in Germany for a long time before coming here.To be honest there is no perfect healthcare system , except perhaps the Swiss /Swedish models. The health insurance are at fault but so are the greedy doctors and lawyers .
if the state takes over the healthcare system it will be a bad day,many countrys in the world have that and it may only work in Cuba .
I have little hope regarding a good health care system ,if at all it will take years and years.

Monday November 9, 2009, 8:25 am
Good job Carole.
Thanks for the link Jim. I knew my trash of a Rep. would vote for it. He is an HR 676 cosponsor! He only did it knowing single payer would never win but trying to trick progressives into supporting him in elections. he is such a two-faced, slimey Democrat! That is why I did a write-in vote for my dog last year. Wolfie supports single-payer. He is also much more deducated, articulate, intelligent and definitely much much more compassionate thatn my "Representative".

Monday November 9, 2009, 8:48 am
Paying to death for health care. The American way of ....uhhhm what did I intend to say here...?

Monday November 9, 2009, 10:19 am
Good for him, vote your concious, not the consensus :)
No trigger, because triggers don't get pulled. Also, please, advocate for singlepayer healthcare, with Community First Choice Option and CLASS Act (Community Choice Act for the handicapped, elderly, autistic, disabled, etc.); H.R. 676 & S. 703, are the best of the lot, so far; i.m.h.o..

Related group and actions :)

http://www.singlepayeraction.org//join.html

reality

Monday November 9, 2009, 1:02 pm
thank You Jill for passing this to Me, and thank You Just Carole for Your dedication and diligence in doing so much to let Us all know about these types of issues!! it is a crime in My eyes what politicians are trying to do to Us and pull the wool over Our eyes all for their power and finacial gain. ,,,,,,,,,Cathi

Monday November 9, 2009, 2:49 pm
TY Just C Great article, links, and insight.

Monday November 9, 2009, 3:38 pm
More smoke screens. Kucinich is helping ship the American economy to other countries and importing all the colonists other countries can excrete -- including his wife.

Nearly every nation in the world protects its economy from foreign exploitation except this one, thanks to politicans like Kucinich.

If we had jobs worth a damn, the health care issue would not be extreme. Kucinich is working a liberal working with libertarians for foreign (I guess you would call multicultural or globalist) interests, one of which is cocaine, the biggest burden America has, both financial and psychological.

Threads like this one are what make me call Care2 a mental hospital.

Monday November 9, 2009, 3:48 pm

Huh?

(Please read before commenting.)

Monday November 9, 2009, 4:25 pm
I'm busy at the moment, who wants to provide treatment that has been requested by our mental hospital?

I like Kucinich, don't agree with everything he believes, but he is a man of principal who votes his conscious. That is rare in Congress. He resisted great pressure to vote "no". Most of you guys know where I stand on single-payer, so I won't bore everyone, well, anymore than I am now. But, when the Democratic Party has total control, not filibuster proof, but major majority control, why is this legislation so difficult to pass? It was part of the campaign, it is clearly a priority, yet it is unlikely to make it to a vote in the Senate and unlikely to pass in pure form in the house.

Honest question, I don't get it.

Monday November 9, 2009, 4:28 pm
Meant great pressure to vote "yes" but voted "no"....

Monday November 9, 2009, 4:51 pm
Honest question, I don't get it.

Monday November 9, 2009, 4:52 pm
(More smoke screens. Kucinich is helping ship the American economy to other countries and importing all the colonists other countries can excrete -- including his wife.) John what on earth are you talking about. Facts please not innuendo and slurs.. Dennis married a very strong women who is her own person in her own right and been supportive of him.. Her thesis for her master's was on "Conflict Resolution in World Politics."

Elizabeth Kucinich
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Kucinich

Monday November 9, 2009, 4:59 pm

Well, we KNOW why any Democratic proposal met with resistance on the Republican side . . . but, it is wrong to believe that ALL Democrats can't see the faults with it. Some voted against it because it's nothing better than what we have presently; and others (remember that HR 676 had several co-sponsors) because single-payer was never given a fair chance.

It's very wrong to think that ALL Democrats automatically agree.

Monday November 9, 2009, 5:14 pm
Sorry, phrased my question poorly. What I meant is that I don't get why the majority party didn't take enough time to develop a bill that reached what seems to me to be the major goal of a single payer plan. I know why they didn't vote for this bill.... :-) It was poorly phrased, and quite frankly, still maybe poorly phrased. Let me phrase it differently, when Bush wanted to cut taxes and had a Republican congress, they got it drafted and pushed it through to fruition. I just assumed 9 months ago that this majority congress, that doesn't agree on everything, would agree on enough to get priority legislation through. And that I don't get why they didn't get that done prior to the elections on Tuesday, which had an impact on some of them depending on their districts.

If that doesn't make sense, don't worry about it. It was a poorly phrased curiousity question.

Monday November 9, 2009, 5:19 pm

Thanks, Paul. (Honestly, with all the other discussion going on, I wasn't really sure WHAT was your question! hehehe)

Got me! The Pelosi bill came out of left field -- like a sucker punch. It was so convoluted and irrational that I, initially, thought it was "designed to fail." Real change (such as HR676) never got any attention from the media OR other Democrats.

I'm as perplexed as you are!

Monday November 9, 2009, 5:24 pm
If I were a Democrat, I might work to replace Pelosi. That bill didn't do anything but give a lot of people a headache and it definitely didn't help those of you that want a single payer plan. Thanks for the response, it just seemed confusing to this rather independent guy...

Monday November 9, 2009, 5:31 pm
If you guys are wondering where that truck came from so are those of US who spent weeks, days and hours collection signatures for HR 676. On Democracy Now Kucinich said: “There Weren’t 14 Votes To Force Single Payer Vote, and Nobody Tried to Get Them” http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/11/09/kucinich-there-werent-14-votes-to-force-single-payer-vote-and-nobody-tried-to-get-them/

Monday November 9, 2009, 5:34 pm
Paul I lost a friend when I said that Pelosi would be a dud! And so she is! Leaders of both houses are the weakest I have ever watched on the floor..I am waiting, with bated breath, to see what the Senate Bill puts forward.

Monday November 9, 2009, 5:34 pm

Pelosi is the same one who refused to put impeachment of Bush on the table.

As I stated on another post: "I wouldn't trust anything Pelosi says if her mouth was notarized."

Monday November 9, 2009, 5:38 pm
Carole you do have a way with words. I can't stop laughing! You should send this to Pelosi...This is very funny! A comic would love that line..

Monday November 9, 2009, 5:48 pm

Ya know . . .

This whole thing has gotten so EFFED UP that I got a newsletter today from Natural News entitled: "Why we should (seriously) disband Congress and let the People vote on health care reform"

. . . and gave it some consideration!

Monday November 9, 2009, 5:59 pm
Now that's an idea. Why not? The people know what they need and it's not what the legislators want for US! I have an Idea "Why not get a petition going that states whatever American's wind up with for health care reform the same applies for all legislators and their families! Let's see how quick their opinion changes about what "We" can or cannot afford.

Monday November 9, 2009, 6:18 pm
Ok, so it is as messed up as it looks. The notarization of lips, good novel title, Carole!

Monday November 9, 2009, 6:30 pm
Thanks C...

I do know even after reading your super news that these Health Companies here in California (Blue Cross) are making a killing at my expense from being older.

Maybe I will just get off it and wait and see what happens...it just keeps getting worse and I frankly am so tired of paying up the wazhoo...Being a PPO it is rotten!

Monday November 9, 2009, 6:46 pm
In the current health insurance market, assuming you can get the insurance, the HMO and the PPO are often not the best deal. Total the premiums, add your anticipated copays, and look to see what they cover. Add you estimated expenses and get a total. If a high deductible plan is available, do the same thing paying special attention to the stop loss or maximum out of pocket and lifetime max for both plans. Sometimes, the high deductible plan is cheaper even when you assume that you will be paying the deductible and full office visit prices because the total out of pocket is lower.

As an example, a few years ago, I had a choice of a PPO with a family premium of $998 per month or a high deductible plan at $225 per month. The PPO had copays of $25 and the stop loss was $2,000 per family member. Even with no medical expenses, I would have spent almost $12K per year. The $2,500 deductible plan had a family stop loss of $5,000. Even though I would pay the office visits in full, with total annual premiums of $2,700 and a max out of pocket of $5,000 the most I would spend would be $7,700.

Doesn't always work that way, and this was a few years ago, but don't hesitate to compare plans based on premiums, copays, and anticipated expenses. My experience with doctors offices, who generally hate HMOs anyway, is that they often gave a small discount since I was paying in full and they wouldn't have to wait for the claim to be approved. You don't have to be rich, I'm not, for this to work. Keep in mind, the difference in monthly premium for the plans I was comparing was over $700 per month....and that would come out of my pocket even if I never got sick, just so I would only have to pay $25 for doctor visits.

Just a suggestion, until we get something better.

Monday November 9, 2009, 6:49 pm

Thanks, Paul -- I think we can use all the financial advice we can get!

(You're a sweetie!)

Monday November 9, 2009, 6:51 pm
Typo, not $998, $698. Knew that sounded high when I looked back at the spreadsheet, but I had included anticipated doctor visits. Actual difference was just under $6K per month, not $12K, and no I couldn't afford the $998 anyway....

Monday November 9, 2009, 7:03 pm
Anytime Just C, the costs of insurance is insane, on that we all agree. And you get to donate bodily fluids and get your height and weight taken for the privilege. I look back on what was spent for insurance and could have paid off the mortgage in just a few more years. The insurance premium for one of the plans was as much as the total mortgage payment.... The plans in the example were from a public system plan, not corporate.

Monday November 9, 2009, 7:41 pm
Check this out
Options: Don't Work, Get a Divorce, Pass Single Payer, Move to Canada if you are not depressed enough.

Monday November 9, 2009, 7:55 pm
Jill P, signed it and the womens rights petition that followed it. As a former trust officer that settled a bunch of estates, I am unfortunately familiar with the laws that are in the article. I have been in meetings where these options were explained to family members by their attorneys and found the whole concept disgusting. It is one of the reasons that I am concerned about gov't care. I've seen good ideas implemented in ways that often do the opposite of what they were intended to do. That these "recovery" laws have lasted almost twenty years is a disgrace. They need to be repealed. No government or private plan should encourage people who want to work from working and no plan should force people to choose to divorce someone they love just to maintain benefits.

Monday November 9, 2009, 8:15 pm
Here in Arizona we're stuck with two knuckle-dragging Cro-Magnon types who are so indoctrinated with their own failed ideology that they never even think to mention working for constituents in their interviews. They are just slogging for the GOP instead of representing the people of Arizona, but we've put up with that for years, for some reason.
Wish we could do better for our families and for our nation. At least we didn't get stuck with McCain/Palin - so we should remember that things could be MUCH worse.

Monday November 9, 2009, 8:53 pm
Jill I'm working on your petition and will get it out to Care2 and DTDN. It's a very important issue and it makes me mad as hell that you and other Americans are faced with this abusive tactic which could have only been thought up by scoundrels! Dastardly deeds were being conjured up during the 90's as everything was being turned upside down with the Corporate mentality running the show! And yes I did say corporate involvement because CEOS, lobbists, were looking for ways, in back door meetings, to cut corners in government expenditures and this sounds like one of their ideas.. Like the Fisa Bill, Et al! Take heart dear lady!

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 12:58 am
I would have voted for Kucinich IF they had let him debate on TV even!
Thanks and noted!

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 5:42 am
 
Dennis Kucinich: Insurance Companies are the problem
 
(Paul, your question regarding why Democrats supported HR3962 is posed to Dennis in the first video.)
 

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 6:41 am
Thanks Just Carole, he's a bright guy. I think there are alternatives to the non-profit, gov't approach, but Kucinich nailed the problems with this bill and his solutions are better than the current system, at least in the short term.

Insurance companies operate under extensive and favorable regulations provided by congress. If the favorable regs were removed, like the ability to discriminate based on pre-existing conditions and anti-trust exemptions, then insurance companies would return to the system that allows people to get competively priced coverage while still allowing insurance companies to operate as businesses. Prior to the favorable regulations, insurance companies had to operate on the "rule of large numbers". Short, but necessary explanation.

The rule of large numbers means that insurance companies have to price their coverage to attract as many people as possible, because those that actually need benefits in a given year are a relatively small number of the total population. If a company in the home insurance industry only insures homes in Florida that are on the coast, they are very vulnerable to hurricanes. But, using the law of large numbers, if they get clients nationwide, then their reserves can handle large claims in a limited area. People in Nebraska would have their premiums covering hurricanes at times and at other times people on the gulf and atlantic coasts would pay for tornadoes in the mid-west.

Pricing is always cheaper when the insurance ocmpany knows that it is only able to stay in business by covering as many people as possible. With no ability to examine potential clients, no bodily fluids, weight, height, medical records, age or gender questions, insurance companies would have to find as many people as possible to cover. Obviously, for this to work, some sort of mandate that people get coverage would be necessary, but the competition among insurance companies would force lower prices.

I would just ask everybody to remember that the messed up system we have, right now, is within the insurance regulations drafted by congress and the states. The current regs encourage companies to deny coverage to anyone who looks like they might need it! Regs that force insurance companies to survive based on the law of large numbers will force them to look for as many customers as possible. That, lowers costs and doesn't involve tax dollars.

All that said, congress never looks to reduce their power and control. Single payer, in my view, will not do what we think it will. But it's a better option than the current house bill and congress is more likely to lean that way than a free market approach that hasn't existed in a century...

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 7:13 am
Thanks Paul for the info about the high deductible...

Frankly my deduction know is at $2,500...since I am over 55 my prem, here in California goes up every year and will mostly have to stop this stupid medical insurance with Blue Cross. Since I get Miagranes (pre-existing) no other insurance company will take me...To make story short I am paying over $650/mo and so far having nothing wrong with me...

All of the insurance companies pulled out of California and sadly after I jumped out of Kaiser when I was 40 and into Blue Cross everything was fine until I hit 50 then everything went screwy...

Also, being laid off is hard and even before that I paid for my own health car for over 25 years.

Don't know but France is looking fairly good lately!

This Health Care is so messed up, I see tons of people in California without it then go directly to Emergency where they are not allowed to ask if you have Health Insurance if you have a life threatening problem...thus, the hospitals get stuck with the chgs, and then people that do had insurance get yanked around like a merry go round for costs.

UMMMM I rarely go to a doctor, but when I do the price I pay is just appalling, then with the premiums it is enough to put me into a depression!

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 7:18 am
I thought all people knew the insurance companies are a business like any other other. Object of enterprise to screw as much money out of the customer as possible and put as many obstacles in place as they can invent to prevent claims succeeding! Remember insurance companies like lawyers, accountants politicians don't actually make anything for the community like say a house builder or a carpenter etc. All they want to do is take your dollars and line the pockets of their designer suits! The UK's NHS miight have it's faults but not at the grossly exaggerated level some anti healthcare US politicians have claimed. It is the enviable free at point of access unversal health care that should be used as a framework for the US after all it is generally considered to be a world beater despite it's imperfections I'm sure given US ingenuity it could be improved on!

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 7:33 am
chris b., given how many companies and professionals have taken actions that justify our view, I can understand how you feel.

But just for fun.

Do attorneys not make anything for their community when they take a case defending the property rights of a poor neighborhood when a developer and city want to use eminent domain to force them out?

Does an accountant not make anything for their community when they audit a firm and report fraud or other violations that effect a community and would have continued without their report?

Do politicians, um, not live in neighborhoods! :-)

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 8:33 am
support women's healthcare now





or, Create a Petition



Change.org



support women's healthcare now

http://womensrights.change.org/actions/view/support_womens_healthcare_now

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 9:51 am
Well I suppose Paul, you have to give some credit when they do a bit of Pro Bono work for the community but generally they are parasitic and not even simbiotic parasites in their activities. My tar brush has a mighty fine sweep width! As you have probably noticed from any other of my posts you have read I am a bit of a COG: cynical old git! My point being the fruits of the labour of your hands is an instant achievement thefruit of the labour of your mind on someone elses behalf is a long drawn out cash cow, usually" QED!

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 9:58 am
I'm an eternal optimist, but I can absolutely understand your position. I get a lot more from gardening and whittling than I do from adding columns of numbers or analyzing funds.... Although, many of my clients are just regular people and not multi-millionaires and it is satisfying, well actually very gratifying, when I make an impact for them and their children. I also do a little expert witness work and helping the little guy win against a big corporation is also very satisfying. But tangible, not at all.

I see you couldn't help me come up with the good that politicians do either....

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 11:10 am
There is an up side and a down side to state care. In the UK the 1948 Welfare Act promised pensions for the old, health care for everyone, bnenfits for those that could not work, free education and old age homes. We pay for this by National Insurance Contributions deducted directly from our salary and there is a contribution from our employer too.

This worked well for years until people started living longer because of better care and food, because medicine has improved and, mostly because we have so many immigrants that have not paid into the system and asylum seekers that drain the benefits system. First the first time in years we have had more babies born to immigrants than people who were born here (bear in mind that also includes people who were immigrants).

To deal with this they are now going to stop giving pensions and making my children work for longer. To supplement the abysmal pensions people are no longer retiring because they cannot afford to.

This is not a racist dig but a reality and economic check since we joined the EU and have had Human Rights stuffed down our throats.

I was most amused by a Chinese youth who complained to me about these immigrants. He was born here but his parents were refugees and he now feels that too many foreign people live here.

Basically, the systems can work as long as there is a sufficiency of people paying. Not everyone needs to until you reach a point where there are more people taking than paying, and this is where we are.

As for Obama, he's a politician, take what he says as if he is someone like Bush or Gore.

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 12:19 pm
Good for you Paul. As the opticain said you cannot be optimistic with a misyt optic or perhaps that was the barman sorry bartender! Politicians have a use if you look on the posts for keeping animals out of circuses you will see one suggestion that they would make a good substitute entertainment for animals in the circus. My original comment was that they already provide animal entertainment in there own circus ie Congress the mayors office, Houses of Parliament etc and they even have smaller versions at local level like county, district and parish councils! The only thing they have in common is we pay for them out of tax dollars/pounds/euros etc! If you have access to UK TV visa satellite or on line the live feed from our parliament in the UK is guaranteed to put the most able brain to sleep in a matter of minutes and wake it up again when the bickering and childish behaviour kicks off! You have to have a sense of humour when one realises it's your cash they are squandering and argueing over!

Tuesday November 10, 2009, 1:41 pm
Gilllian M - What you describe is called a Ponzi scheme on this side of the pond. It works as long as there are more new investors than existing ones, and as long as it it the government doing it.

chrs b - happened to watch the BBC just a few nights ago and caught the House of Parliament arguing about sometining. Your analysis must be correct because I have no idea what I saw and woke up a few hours later to a different program...

Wednesday November 11, 2009, 1:02 pm
Single payer Expanded Medicare for All HR 676, the ONLY economical and humane way to go.
This if from the PEN
A couple weeks ago the Democratic Senate Committee put out a video
called "I'm A Democrat, And I'm A Republican" (itself a play on the
cultural icon Mac ads), begging us for more campaign contributions
based on the premise that even 60 votes in their caucus is not enough
to pass a decent bill. So we decided to produce a series of our own
issue advocacy satire videos, to propagate the truth that NEITHER the
Democrats NOR the Republicans want real health care reform. And you
can watch the first one on this page.

Medicare For All Fax Action Page:
http://www.peaceteam.net/action/pnum1020.php

And from the same action you can also send a fax (for no charge) to
all your members of Congress (or special new advocacy capability)
calling for the passage of Medicare for All, instead of the
ridiculous sell out to medical corporation special interests that
barely squeaked out of the House over the weekend, and only at the
additional price of a total betrayal of a woman's right to choose.

For this special fax action there is a prepared petition text which
you can read on the page above, calling on Congress to get serious
about doing something the American people all want, and pass to
economical and efficient Medicare for all. But you can still add any
personal comments of your own you like.

And if you are represented by any member of the Congressional
so-called Progressive Caucus, you might tell them how profoundly
ASHAMED of them you are, given that outside of the courageous
exceptions of Dennis Kucinich and Eric Massa not one of others voted
against this terrible, awful bill (HR 3962). Remember back in June
they all signed a letter that they would only support a bill with a
"robust" public option. Instead they all voted for a total corporate
insurance take over of our national health care system, and they were
so anxious to sell out any principle they ever claimed to have, that
they threw a woman's right to choose under the bus along the way.

Please take careful note we said a CORPORATE take over of health
care. Because the only thing more dishonest that the Democrats
claiming there is some kind of meaningful public option in the bill
are the Republicans braying that it is a government take over. It is
not "socialized" medicine as the "one smear fits all" demagogues on
the right shout, but instead capitalist medicine, with the most
feeble possible public plan they thought they could pass off to the
American people.

And of course, nobody expects the Senate to turn it into something
better. Instead, it will be a monumental struggle now to even derail
the horrible anti-choice provision, which dictates that after a woman
is forced to buy one of the official overpriced insurance exchange
plans, even if she paid for it with 100% of her own money, that
provider cannot cover the expense of an abortion.

For those who argued we should just pass SOMETHING, even if it was a
bad bill, because they said we could fix it later, this is what you
get from a strategy of perpetual compromise, a bill that is utterly
beyond redemption. It's time to throw HR 3962 in the medical waste
bin, and do what should have been done in the first place, build a
new national health care system on what actually DOES work, by
extending the existing economical and efficient Medicare plan to all
ages.

Wednesday November 11, 2009, 1:49 pm
The Democrats' new "Family" values
Thanks to C Streeter Bart Stupak and his allies, the GOP isn't the only party kowtowing to the Christian right

LINK: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/11/10/stupak_pitts

Full Text:

American women will pay the price for the Democratic dithering that allowed Saturday's passage of the Stupak-Pitts amendment, a worm virus inserted into the House healthcare reform bill with surgical precision. But the Democratic Party will suffer collateral damage.

Stupak-Pitts isn't just "the biggest restriction on women's right to choose in our generation," as Rep. Diana DeGette of Colorado puts it; it's also evidence that on abortion the Democratic Party is now captive, just like the GOP, to Christian conservatism. Of course, Republicans traded away their party's moderate wing for real electoral gains, a base that propelled them to power for decades. The Democrats, already in power, sucker-punched themselves, and all they have to show for it is a big fat shiner in the shape of Bart Stupak's knuckles.

But if Stupak, a former state trooper from Michigan, provided the muscle, his partner, Joe Pitts -- a Pennsylvania Republican with decades in the trenches of the antiabortion battle -- may have brought the brains, and more, a new Christian right coalition custom tailored for the Democratic Party's growing religious conservatism. Stupak is Roman Catholic; Pitts is evangelical. Both are members of the predominantly evangelical organization called the Family; Stupak lives in its C Street house. Together, they're poster boys for the evangelical/conservative Catholic alliance known as "co-belligerency," a culture war strategy designed to take territory within the Democratic Party as well the GOP.

Stupak, the Democratic co-chair of the House Pro-Life Caucus, insists that his amendment does nothing more than ensure that the 1976 Hyde Amendment, which forbids the use of federal funds for abortions, is carried over into healthcare reform. Even some of Stupak's angriest critics within the party concede that Stupak might actually believe that -- nobody has ever accused him of being a subtle legislator. (Though Stupak himself, long known for his amiability, now boasts that he was hiding his "wolfiness" all along.) But the facts are plain: Stupak-Pitts will use the Hyde Amendment as a lever with which to radically roll back abortion rights, effectively strong-arming private insurers -- most of which will be enmeshed with the federal government now -- into abandoning coverage for abortions.

* Continue Reading

Much is being made in the media about the role played by the U.S. Council of Catholic Bishops, which lobbied hard for the amendment. "We just have to accept this as a Catholic thing," goes the new conventional wisdom. Leaving aside the fact that a strong majority of American Catholics are pro-choice, that story line obscures the increasingly significant role played by evangelical conservatives within the Democratic Party.

Start with Stupak and Pitts themselves. Although Stupak is a Catholic, he's lived since at least 2002 in the C Street house run by the Family, which cultivates political leaders on behalf of a long-term vision of what Joe Pitts, speaking at last year's National Prayer Breakfast (the group's only public event), called "God-led government." After the summer sex scandals of Sen. John Ensign, Gov. Mark Sanford and former Rep. Chip Pickering, C Streeters all, made the Capitol Hill address infamous, Stupak denied any knowledge about the house he lives in. "I don't know what you're talking about," Stupak told Michigan reporters when asked about his residence in the house, where he's been enjoying below-market rent for the last seven years, courtesy of C Street's tax-exempt status as a church. But when the Los Angeles Times asked Stupak about his role there in 2002, he pleaded secrecy instead of ignorance: "We sort of don't talk to the press about the house."

That's putting it mildly. In its internal documents, the Family refers to itself as an "invisible organization" and the "prayer cells" into which it organizes politicians as "invisible ‘believing groups.'" That doesn't make it a conspiracy. Rather, the Family represents the soft-sell side of conservative evangelicalism, a social movement that goes beyond -- or maybe beneath -- pulpit pounding and political purity in pursuit of ideological influence on both sides of the aisle. Longtime Family leader Doug Coe, dubbed the "stealth persuader" on Time magazine's list of the 25 most influential evangelicals, declares in a sermon delivered to evangelical leaders that "the more invisible you can make your organization, the more influence it will have."

Joe Pitts can testify to that. It's a safe bet that until Stupak-Pitts, few Americans beyond Pennsylvania Amish country had even heard of the avuncular Republican, a former gym teacher who rarely attaches his name to legislation. And yet he's been a driving force in the antiabortion fight for more than three decades. It was Pitts, a "core" member of the Family, who helped bring antiabortion politics into the organization back in the early 1980s. The Family's focus has always tended toward foreign affairs and economics; Pitts merged the two with the red-hot politics of the abortion wars, quietly exporting free-market fundamentalism and draconian social policy overseas. Pitts and Stupak have joined forces on that front before, teaming up to try to turn President Bush's underfunded but laudable President's Emergency Relief for AIDS initiative into an antiabortion crusade. What they couldn't achieve abroad, they've now brought back home, and then some.

They had plenty of help, starting at the Family's C Street House. It's home not just to Stupak but also to antiabortion Democrats Mike Doyle of Pennsylvania and Heath Shuler of North Carolina, and two of the Senate's fiercest abortion foes, Oklahoma's Tom Coburn -- an obstetrician who once mused on applying the death penalty to abortion providers -- and South Carolina's Jim DeMint, famous for pledging to make healthcare reform Obama's Waterloo. Other Family associates lining up behind Stupak-Pitts include evangelicals Mike McIntyre, D-N.C., John Tanner, D-Tenn., and Lincoln Davis, a Democrat from Tennessee who once proclaimed that no Republican could "outgun, out-pray, or out-family me."

These Family ties don't mean that Stupak-Pitts is a plot hatched at C Street. The Family offers politicians a "worldview," not a vote machine. In the documents stored at the archive of the Fellowship Foundation -- one of the Family's multiple nonprofit entities -- at evangelical Wheaton College, congressional briefings typically lead off with reminders that the Family's prayer groups don't take direct action but rather facilitate the behind-the-scenes relationships that lead to action. "One person grows desirous of pursuing an action," Sen. Sam Brownback, a Family man and former C Street resident, explained the process to me, "and others pull in behind."

Which raises the question: Who's pulling whom? Did backbencher Bart Stupak really come up with the bluff that led pro-choice Democrats to abandon not one but two compromises, one of which Stupak himself seemed to be signing off on earlier this summer? Or was it Pitts, an abortion-wars warrior since the 1970s, and a longtime leader of the House Values Action Team -- an off-the-record caucus of religious right organizations and members of Congress -- who drew up the blueprint?

Neither Stupak nor Pitts is talking. Of course, if they just keep quiet, the press will pin it on the bishops -- who, to be fair, are more than happy to take credit. That version of events neglects the role of relationships forged within the evangelical context of the Family -- a group founded in the spirit of virulent anti-Catholicism, and which maintains to this day that being Catholic brings you no closer to Christ than being Jewish or a Muslim -- and the growing evangelical movement within the Democratic Party. A source close to the Faith Table, a gathering of ostensibly progressive Christians helmed by evangelical leader Jim Wallis, notes that the group has been agitating for Stupak-Pitts for months, with Wallis declaring Stupak-Pitts the most important vote of the year.

He may have been right about that. Right now, even the diluted healthcare reform bill that's limping toward more mauling in the Senate looks like the result of a historic vote. But as a weather vane, Stupak-Pitts tells us which way the wind is blowing. Last time the Democrats possessed this much power in Washington, the Dixiecrats tried to hold the party hostage. Now, it's the faith-based Democrats. Dixiecrats were racists, plain and simple; the faith-based Democrats are a more complicated bunch, a mix of genuinely moral conservatives, many of them to the left on economic issues, political cowards, and default Blue Dogs. They're anti-choice and anti-gay but, by God, they're about love, not hate, a gentler fundamentalism, a faith based in the conflation of Christianity and the Constitution, not the substitution of one for the other. So that's progress, right?

"Sure," says the Faith Table dissident who reports that the council of "progressive Christians" was not willing to even consider any deal that didn't leap past the Hyde Amendment into a new country -- or maybe it's old -- of abortion restrictions. "If you're playing horseshoes with James Dobson."
.

Wednesday November 11, 2009, 1:52 pm

Thank you for promoting awareness, dear Jim!

Wednesday November 11, 2009, 2:06 pm
You are Very Welcome, Just "C" and Thank you for the Green Star.
.

Wednesday November 11, 2009, 2:38 pm
Don't you just love the hypocrites that would "Dare" tell a women what to do when she has some very disturbing issues to deal with should she want or need an abortion? Yet these very same hypocrites will send her child to a war zone to be maimed or killed should she decide she can handle raising a child. She will have an impossible task working and affording someone to care for her baby! She will be challenged if her child needs health Care.

I am not advocating abortion as birth control but I am adamant that an abortion is between a women and her own spirit. We are not suppose to pass judgment and as a Christian I hate those who would "Dare" pass judgment but then send a seventeen year old to be maimed, killed or mentally destroyed! It disgusts me that these same hypocrites will do nothing to end the hunger pangs that some children go through in our so called "United" States. I have heard some of then declare, including a priest, that no child goes hungry in America! That's one time my judgment got the best of me and I wished to sock this individual squarely in the nose!

Soon I will share the "Cover" letter sent with those HR 676 sigs we got. You'll meet just such an individual of the cloth who would not sign the petition and "Dare" said that no child went hungry in America...

Over the years I have come to the conclusion that many who judge a woman's choice of abortion care not about the killing of an unborn it's only an excuse they will "Dare" use to play their dastardly games.. Bait and Switch, then spin it to death! Haven't "We" had enough! Are we still going to fall for the same maneuvers, over and over again?

Washington is nothing but a sink hole and the stench gets worse each and every day! If a legislator cares so much for an unborn child, as well "We" all should be, then why does that same legislator vote against Bills that will ASSIST that same mother and or child? Jesus went wild because
of a certain flaw he found in some humans. Hypocrites! Those who say one thing and do another! It's maddening! Because plain and simply put, it's a betrayal! I remember when Jimmy Swagert would preach that if a man went to a prostitute he was sinning and all along Jimmy was "REALLY" sinning! Rush Limbaugh talked about the evils of drugs but was lapping up Oxycontin. We have legislators that would "Dare" preach the virtues to US but when push comes to shove where do they really stand?

The separation of Church and State was something our CONSTITUTION was firm about! Jesus told US clearly to pay unto Caesar what was his and unto God what was gods..He also cautioned against standing in judgment of another.. Not always easy for the mere mortal but good advice never the less!

Sorry! but I had to let it all hang out.

Wednesday November 11, 2009, 4:22 pm
Barbara, you should see the discussion on the causes side of Care2.....

Thursday November 12, 2009, 8:10 am
Barbara, AMEN!!!

Thursday November 12, 2009, 11:21 am
Amen! I'm so sick of Legislators NOT listening to us! Kucinich is the Ideal Liberal Democratic Representative and it must make those Politicians (*spit on the ground*) around him very uncomfortable!

Friday November 13, 2009, 4:35 pm
Reminds me of the story in Africa...the women wanted their ment to dig a well...but the men kept putting it off.....then all the women conspired to go on a sex strike. Ouila! Suddenly they had their well! Sounds like the same strategy could be applied. ;-D

Saturday November 14, 2009, 6:32 pm
Kucinich proving again that he's one of the precious few lefties in U.S. politics with the courage of his convictions. Kucinich 2012!

Wednesday November 18, 2009, 10:44 am
I like Kucinich, but this may be the only chance we have to get some sort of health care reform passed. It is insanely hard to get this sort of legislation passed and if we can get a public option then lets pass it. We need it and maybe later we can get something better.

Wednesday November 18, 2009, 11:32 am
I wish I could agree with you Jamie as I understand your thinking but language is everything and the language in this bill and all the others but that of HR 676, spells trouble. By the time "We" may get the "Changes" needed, as you suggest, many a good folk will have paid the price..And don't be fooled, changes are not any easier to come by once a bill is signed into law.. Unless we get a health care program which works the first time around, one without the insurers interference, we may as well go for broke..

These are corrupt to the max companies/corporations who have never, will never, have the best interest of the ill or injured on their agenda and, like the bail-out, which was the rip off of the century and, beginning to show it's ugly side, this push for health care at any cost has a very dark side since the insurers and the drugs companies would "Dare" spend, as they have, unbelievable amounts of money in order to continue their control over the lives of those who fall ill.. If it smells like a rat in the woodpile then there's something to the stench. This corporate run/Insurance based health care smelled before and so far, any bill that has been put on the table stinks to high heaven!

When you allow the fox in the henhouse you get dead chickens! These closed door meetings
which the administration has had with insurers and pharmaceuticals, even certain doctors, health care providers, is not based on a legitimate, equitable, unbiased based thought process designed to be in the best interest of those who will require health Care. These are the same games that were played going back more then twenty years ago and, as then, it stinks of a dangerous sellout. Keep in mind, tomorrow someone you or I love may find themselves at the mercy of the latest coup de grace.

HR 676 Single Payer is the only way to insure an opportunity for checks and balances..There's a reason why the Conyers and Kucinich Bill was ignored and it's not the cost of their program. In my opinion it's to take the time to pass TORT REFORM which will effectively cover the sins of those who have something to hide and I'm not speaking about doctors alone in this respect. Those who have been caught up in the Workmen's comp or health insurance and done the math, know of what I saying...IT'S THOSE CLOSED DOORS THAT SPELL IT OUT!

Many of the more informed can see the game being played out by our legislators and know it's coming from both parties. GOOD COP, BAD COP. They did the same thing with the war in Iraq and the very same thing with the Bail Out! It's no secret that the two party system has had an unholy merger. I will fight for Single Payer! And so we understand something, I will not benefit from Single Payer since I am already covered. What concerns me is the further assault on Americans who will still find themselves at the mercy of those who have proven to be merciless!

The Fox unless you cut off his head or keep him away from the hen house will always savage the more vulnerable chickens! THOSE CLOSED DOORS, secret meetings, spell TROUBLE!

Thursday November 19, 2009, 7:12 am
So right Barbara!
Jaimie, your Representative is supposed to "Represent" YOU! He/She is supposed to do what YOU say and want NOT have you cave in to his/her demands. Hold your membrs of congress accountable. If they are not listening to theri boss, US, then they are bad irresponsible employees and need to be fired. Don't be manipulated by their lies. There is no real "public option" and even ANY kind of "public option" in this particular Bill will NEVER lead to somethng better like single payer. They are making sure of that. They want to ignore single payer, and have, and if they put the "public option" in it is designed to fail so they can say "We tried single payer and it did not work." Then they will bury it forever. Also, this Bill is designed to entrench us in private insurance for all eternity. We'll never get out of it, not without a REAL Revolution. this Bill needs to die now and they need to meet the demands of the majority of the American people, doctors, and nurses. Pass single payer, expanded medicare for all, HR 676. THAT is their job. They need to be reminded of that. Do your job or find another occupation.

Thursday November 19, 2009, 7:45 am
Disappointing congress, I think Jill hit the nail on the head. Both parties will lose many representatives in the next election cycle. A third party would be nice.

Thursday November 19, 2009, 10:09 am
Touché Jill!