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Noam Chomsky: My Reaction to Osama Bin Laden's Death


US Politics & Gov't  (tags: Osama bin Laden, morality, murder, assassination )

Just
- 1263 days ago - informationclearinghouse.info
We might ask ourselves how we would be reacting if Iraqi commandos landed at George W. Bush's compound, assassinated him, and dumped his body in the Atlantic. Uncontroversially, his crimes vastly exceed bin Laden's, and he is not a "suspect" but . . .



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Comments

Just Carole (338)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 5:59 pm

Targetted assassination.

 

. (0)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 6:02 pm
Chomsky is rather disingenuous when he compares bin Laden confessing to mass murder and terrorism vs. Chomsky potentially falsely confessing to having won the Boston Marathon. bin Laden confessed to massive crimes on tape and upheld that confession for a full decade, despite knowing in advance (as any person would) that the confession woul make him the biggest target for American reprisal imaginable. And in ten years, he never recanted publicly - but maintained his guilt. And spent those ten years in hiding and in flight (and flight is additional evidence supporting his consciousness of guilt.)

He wasn't a "suspect". He was a confessed major player in an attack on our nation. He started a war with the U.S. And in any war targeting the leadership of the opposition is a valid response. While his death isn't going to stop the conflict, he put himself in the position of being a legitimate target.

Was it a planned assassination? Perhaps. And I don't really care. While his death makes him a martyr to some (and innocent people are certainly going to pay with their lives in reprisal attacks) his capture and certain eventual lifetime incarceration or execution could have created even a greater and lengthier martyrdom - and a greater incentive for reprisals from his fanatical followers.
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 6:07 pm
Noam Chomsky's brilliant mind never ceases to amaze me. Unfortunately, his insights are not acknowledged or heeded by those in political power. But most certainly he is effective elsewhere..

Thank you for this submission, Just C.
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 6:12 pm
Some fine observations you've made, LINDSEY DTSW. I hope that in your second part you'll respond to Chomsky's allegations of George W. Bush's 'crimes'.
 

Constance F. (434)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 6:15 pm
Excellent food for thought. And I don't like assinations of people. (I don't like the death penalty either, even if the person is 100 percent guilty) I find what happened to Osama highly disturbing and not to be trusted. I find my own Government hightly disturbing, barbaric and not to be trusted. Bush should have been impeached. "Should have" and why not? I am finding the human race (not all of course) highly disturbing, barbaric and not to be trusted. So sorry, a certain slight madness comes upon you when you read all this stuff...all the lies, deception, hypocrisy and greed, and all the suffering inflicted upon other human beings and other species. Pheeew!
 

. (0)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 6:22 pm
Gerald, when it comes to Bush, since I consider he lied in getting us into the Iraq war, then he's guilty as well. There was justification for going into Afghanistan; however, I don't personally see any justification for Iraq.
 

Mike S. (86)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 6:31 pm
An interesting read. Thank you very much Carole.
 

John C. (81)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 6:32 pm
As much as I dislike going into apologetics for republicans I think it should be said that Bush, who was the president at the time, took no aggressive actions until after the US was attacked. That is a big difference.
If he was ill-equipt for the task then the American public must accept their own portion of responsibility for allowing him to stay in office.
Recall petitions were circulated when unions were disenfranchised but not for war?
 

Just Carole (338)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 6:52 pm

I'm going to post the text here -- mainly because I admire the way Chomsky also picked up on the use of the term "Geronimo" --

May 07, 2011 "Guernica" --- It’s increasingly clear that the operation was a planned assassination, multiply violating elementary norms of international law. There appears to have been no attempt to apprehend the unarmed victim, as presumably could have been done by 80 commandos facing virtually no opposition—except, they claim, from his wife, who lunged towards them. In societies that profess some respect for law, suspects are apprehended and brought to fair trial. I stress “suspects.” In April 2002, the head of the FBI, Robert Mueller, informed the press that after the most intensive investigation in history, the FBI could say no more than that it “believed” that the plot was hatched in Afghanistan, though implemented in the UAE and Germany. What they only believed in April 2002, they obviously didn’t know 8 months earlier, when Washington dismissed tentative offers by the Taliban (how serious, we do not know, because they were instantly dismissed) to extradite bin Laden if they were presented with evidence—which, as we soon learned, Washington didn’t have. Thus Obama was simply lying when he said, in his White House statement, that “we quickly learned that the 9/11 attacks were carried out by al Qaeda.”

Nothing serious has been provided since. There is much talk of bin Laden’s “confession,” but that is rather like my confession that I won the Boston Marathon. He boasted of what he regarded as a great achievement.

There is also much media discussion of Washington’s anger that Pakistan didn’t turn over bin Laden, though surely elements of the military and security forces were aware of his presence in Abbottabad. Less is said about Pakistani anger that the U.S. invaded their territory to carry out a political assassination. Anti-American fervor is already very high in Pakistan, and these events are likely to exacerbate it. The decision to dump the body at sea is already, predictably, provoking both anger and skepticism in much of the Muslim world.

It’s like naming our murder weapons after victims of our crimes: Apache, Tomahawk… It’s as if the Luftwaffe were to call its fighter planes “Jew” and “Gypsy.”


We might ask ourselves how we would be reacting if Iraqi commandos landed at George W. Bush’s compound, assassinated him, and dumped his body in the Atlantic. Uncontroversially, his crimes vastly exceed bin Laden’s, and he is not a “suspect” but uncontroversially the “decider” who gave the orders to commit the “supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole” (quoting the Nuremberg Tribunal) for which Nazi criminals were hanged: the hundreds of thousands of deaths, millions of refugees, destruction of much of the country, the bitter sectarian conflict that has now spread to the rest of the region.

There’s more to say about [Cuban airline bomber Orlando] Bosch, who just died peacefully in Florida, including reference to the “Bush doctrine” that societies that harbor terrorists are as guilty as the terrorists themselves and should be treated accordingly. No one seemed to notice that Bush was calling for invasion and destruction of the U.S. and murder of its criminal president.

Same with the name, Operation Geronimo. The imperial mentality is so profound, throughout western society, that no one can perceive that they are glorifying bin Laden by identifying him with courageous resistance against genocidal invaders. It’s like naming our murder weapons after victims of our crimes: Apache, Tomahawk… It’s as if the Luftwaffe were to call its fighter planes “Jew” and “Gypsy.”

There is much more to say, but even the most obvious and elementary facts should provide us with a good deal to think about.

Copyright 2011 Noam Chomsky
________________________________________________________________________

Noam Chomsky is Institute Professor emeritus in the MIT Department of Linguistics and Philosophy. He is the author of numerous best-selling political works. His latest books are a new edition of Power and Terror, The Essential Chomsky (edited by Anthony Arnove), a collection of his writings on politics and on language from the 1950s to the present, Gaza in Crisis, with Ilan Pappé, and Hopes and Prospects, also available as an audiobook.

 

Just Carole (338)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 7:00 pm

Immediately, the term "Manifest Destiny" comes to mind . . . in order to excuse Native American genocide.

 

Past Member (0)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 7:09 pm
LINDSEY DTSW ~~ Thank you for your response. I agree with it completely.
But it does emphasize that world politics isn't on a level 'playikng' field.
Ah! For a truly egalitarian world !!!
 

Just Carole (338)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 7:11 pm

Gerald, I fully recognize (and appreciate) your sensitivity.

Thank you for contributing.

 

Past Member (0)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 7:11 pm
George W has more to offer the fish in the Atlantic than he has to offer human beings.
 

Just Carole (338)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 7:12 pm

STOP IT, DAVID!

(hehehehehe . . . We're already inundated with TRUTH!)

 

. (0)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 7:27 pm
I certainly agree, Gerald - on the world stage, there's definitely no level playing field. The leader of a superpower has a decided advantage and can get away with many things other leaders can't. Just as I, as a citizen of the U.S., have an advantage over citizens of many other countries (for which I'm quite thankful.)
 

as s. (201)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 8:10 pm
Chomsky has a way of flowing words beautifully and it sometimes goes unnoticed that his basic premise is flawed. Being a master of pretty prose does not make one correct. During WWII the world would have rejoiced at the death of Adolph Hitler, whether that death came from poison, bombing, or even covert action. No sane man would even have questioned if a trial or war tribunal should have been the appropriate avenue.

Dangerous terrorists, who use their religion to destroy the rights of their fellow human beings, have sworn their allegiance to destroy entire countries and faiths in the name of this man. Osama Bin Laden chose the same path as Hitler – and any guilt, or even any further thought of his demise is unwarranted. An evil man has been destroyed, and it is time to rejoice in the fact that the world is a safer place.

The analogy of naming weapons Tomahawk and Geronimo are like using the words Jews and Gypsy is completely ludicrous. Geronimo, even during the Native American Wars, had earned the respect as a great warrior. Tomahawk is an actual weapon. These names were given to infer danger, not to perpetuate hate. Chomsky is simply resorting to inflammatory propaganda.

Pretty prose and a vast vocabulary can seem like magic – but magic is just another way to make a person believe in something that is not true.
 

Barbara W. (342)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 8:14 pm
You cannot currently send a star to Gerald because you have done so within the last week.
 

Cary Mostly-Away (94)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 8:15 pm
I think there would probably be equal amounts of cheering in the streets
if the roles were reversed on Bush JR (or) SR, in my opinion.
People are waking up to their true history and what they represent thanks to the Internet.
The apples don't fall far from the original Prescott tree.
That family is dangerously hated everywhere world wide, aren't they ?

BTW,anything the White House says as fact the exact opposite to what they are saying sounds more plausible as an explanation and is usually a lot closer to the truth. It's a great exercise, try it and you will be amazed.
Secrecy and deception don't have a very long shelf life once the population wakes up and sees what they could not see before. And they are.
 

ChanTlalok C. (369)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 8:25 pm
Just Carole your fantastic, just remember who the real world terrorists have been since 1519? The Arab people never did anything wrong to my people The Apaches. Think about it? Who are known to have forked tongues?
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday May 7, 2011, 11:23 pm
Noted.
 

Hanan W. (47)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 12:03 am
Carole, thanks so much for this 'on point' post. May the voices of truth continue to shed light....
 

Alicia N. (87)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 12:42 am
Great article sweetheart....... I just cannot believe the people's reaction to all of this...... SCARY!!!! It's really sad and confusing, take care guys and gals.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 1:18 am
Bush's response was typical for "w"rongway.
The same Bush who gave the Taliban $43 million four months before 9/11.
The same Bush who proved he could steal elections and we were powerless.
The same Bush who said & I quote:
"The Constitution is just a goddamn piece of paper."
~ George W. Bush 2005 Capitol Hill Blue
The same Bush who established our course toward the Fascist, New World Order that Obama continues on despite his campaigh of Change & Hope.
Our future is in our hands, we must take up our right to 'not vote' for those who do not represet us and make it known to the losers that they lost because of their FAILURE TO REPRESENT and NO HOPE THERE WILL BE ANY CHANGE.
The 'non vote' has become more powerful than the vote, when there is no real choice. Nothing gets a politician's attention more than the threat of losing due to backing the loser's positions. Let them know when they do not represent, do not vote. Sooner or later, we will have to sacifice a term to get their attention.
We voted for the Democrats last time, it did no good.
They STILL aren't vocal and stepping up for us.
They are STILL on the Bush course.
 

. (0)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 1:42 am
Chan-Tlalok Rain, you state, "The Arab people never did anything wrong to my people The Apaches."

If you see yourself as only Apache, and not American, then I suppose that's a true statement (assuming that no Apache were killed in terrorist attacks perpetrated by Arabs anywhere in the world.)

As nations, the Arab nations without question avoided trying to conquer or oppress the American Indian nations. The Arab nations were, of course, busy conquering and oppressing other nations and people. But certainly not the Apache.
 

KS Goh (0)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 2:03 am
Thanks for the article.
 

Arild Warud (166)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 4:17 am
Three Presidents tried,two wars and billions of $ spent,this was the best way to wipe him of the map,otherwise he would have been a martyr for the fanatics.It may seem cynic of me but to burry him at sea was also right,no grave to visit.Thanks for the post "C".
 

. (0)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 4:45 am
noted, thanks
 

Bracha Kay (31)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 5:08 am
As bad as Bush is, he's no Osama.
 

Teresa W. (692)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 5:18 am
Thank you, Carole!
 

Jytte Nhanenge (64)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 5:25 am
Thank you for the post Just. I cannot send you a star because I have just done that. I like to have my perceptions challenged, and Chomsky does that well. Thus, I also enjoy what you say Cary: turn things 180 degrees around and then see how the story looks like. That may very well be closer to reality than what you heard the first time around. For example, I heard from the Pentagon spokesperson that Osama bin Laden, when attacked, used a women as a shield. Now I am being told that it was his wife and that she threw herself in front of him to save him! Those two stories gives a very different conclusion: The first presents the actions of a coward, the second the actions of a daring, loving wife. Which is it?

May I kindly draw your attention to an article I posted covering an interview with a 9/11 widow and her impressive perceptions of the death of Osama bin Laden:
http://www.care2.com/news/member/644491041/2800063
"I'M Looking for Justice, Not Vengeance"
 

John Gregoire (257)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 6:18 am
Chomsky exists to challenge conventional thinking. However he is dead wrong on this one. Sorry to see some of the comments above. This guy attacked our country and cause over 3000 deaths. We then reacted and told him and others that we would get them. One down, more to go.

I note that Chomsjy failed to address the Pakistani complicity while we continue to support that country. That's the real international issue here and it is being obfuscated by all this.

 

DobieMax WoBib (15)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 6:44 am
Noted
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 6:46 am
What I get from reading Norm Chomsky's aritlce is he fritters around with a few things to 'think about'. Well, anyone can come up with all sorts of things to 'think about' (about Bin Laden et al)
To me it's one more person who doesn't have all the data about Bin Laden from the U.S. gov't (read 'the public') yet trying to understand what 'really' went on (or goes on). No gov't. would ever tell everything they know, it's called 'for reasons of national defence and national security'. So how anyone thinks they can understand something without all the data is beyond me. It's simply ends up being conjecture, opinion, and an educated guess at best.

Anyone can attempt to call the raid on Bin Laden what they want....but commandos don't bother to ask questions or permit their target many options. Enter the armchair generals second guessing everything and passing judgement.
 

Kenneth L. (314)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 6:54 am
Oops, 'Noam', not 'Norm'. That's his brother.
 

Just Carole (338)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 7:28 am
 
As a reminder, we should also bear this in mind:
 
(From Democracy Now!)
 
Obama Administration: U.S. Forces Can Assassinate Americans
 
 

Arielle S. (317)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 7:58 am
Carole, you are terrific, David, you are hilarious, Constance, I so relate.... And if we did have ALL the information, I doubt we would be any happier about this. Whether you believe bin Laden was responsible for 9/11 or not, it's still murder. And all the innocent people that we have killed in Iraq, that is murder, too. And it doesn't bring back a single 9/11 victim.
 

Abdessalam Diab (154)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 8:25 am
Bin Laden was unarmed when the commandos arrested him. Why wasn't he taken to the international crime court or even to an American court of Justice? Was USA afraid of what he could say about his relationship with the American administration since the USSR invasion of Afghanistan? I believe this was the reason behind this targeted murder. Thanks Carole for this post.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 9:14 am
Make no mistake, I am happy to see him gone. But the battle against terrorism is a struggle of competing values, not killing opponents. The US is the standard by which the rest of the free world is measured. With every extra-judicial assassination (however justified) and every tortured suspect, every dead civilian that standard is lowered.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 9:21 am
Thanks Carole...and for everyone's great comments (especially like David B's and John C's).
 

Fred Hoekstra (6493)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 10:01 am
Strange.....
 

Wild Thang (9)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 11:38 am
As a psychopathic killer he would rank with Saddam Hussein as one who was a good psychopathic killer when he was part of the CIA supported crew to lure the Soviets into Afghanistan in 1979 and be given the encouragment of Enron heiresses stingers campaign... and Saddam to use western provided material for gas to use on the Iranians as we stated we hoped they killed each other off as we sold arms to Iran too...not an uncommon super power ploy over the ages... but who started what is debatable and one thing makes us similar, a belief in acceptable collateral damages to considerable innocent civilians in order to achieve ideologicatly impersonal and inhumane goals... when did the psychopath become bad or when did hitler become a hitler...speaking of guernica what was with that?? Who attacked Manhattan island first... or rather took it from the Native Americans and then who just simply grabbed it from the Dutch after that...and what happend when the financial district made countries go bankrupt in a kind of financial attack via fraudenlent practices and speculative excesses... cycles of violence whose beginning and end can barely be found but the expiration date of the logic of human civilization and western colonialism may already have passed.
 

Michael Carney (211)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 12:17 pm
Noted, thanks Carole...Noam always hits the nail right on the head...
 

Jonjon Hoy (146)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 12:55 pm
Bin Ladin, Lost at sea............
 

Marianna Molnar Woods (9)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 1:02 pm
i didn like it.
 

Matthew Cloner (122)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 2:17 pm
Thanks for posting the great article, Carole. I'm not usually a big fan of Noam Chomsky, but I think that he raised a lot of good questions here. First of all, I no longer believe in the "official" story of 9/11 that our nation has presented to the world. While there is no doubt in my mind that Osama Bin Laden was an enemy of the USA, I am not convinced that he was the prime architect of this tragedy.

I have read and studied this issue for many years. After careful study and examination of the events surrounding 9/11, I can no longer accept what my government has been telling me all these years. 47-story buildings do not fall down by themselves (look up 'Building 7'). When our involvement in the Iraq War finally comes to an end, it is estimated that it will have cost America as much as 3 trillion dollars! Hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians will have died as a result of our invasion of this nation. And thanks to the Patriot Act, we have lost most of our freedoms in America. Is it any wonder why those Navy SEALs were in such a hurry to shoot an unarmed man and dump his body in the ocean? Sounds pretty fishy to me!
 

monka blank (81)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 3:02 pm
See what happens if people are "influenced" by the death of Osama bin Laden.....
A Texas High School teacher has been placed on administrative leave following an incident where he allegedly told a Muslim girl in his 9th grade Algebra class "I bet that you're grieving" on Monday following the death of Osama bin Laden.

According to one parent at Clear Brook High School in Houston who spoke about the incident to a local ABC affiliate, the teacher also said, "I heard about your uncle's death."

The parent said the student "understood that he was referring about Osama bin Laden being killed and was racially profiling her." The name of the alleged victim of the comment has not been released. She is being described as an "American-born girl of Muslim faith."

The teacher allegedly showed no remorse after Muslim girl reacted to his comments, according to the parent, who requested anonymity from the ABC station because "she doesn't want any retaliation against her daughter or the girl who experienced the inappropriate comment."

"The student ended up crying over what was said to her by the teacher and the teacher asked her why she was crying and another student said it was because of what you said earlier," the parent told the station. "And his response was, oh, OK, and just kind of smirked and giggled and walked away.....
 

surjit k. (1)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 3:11 pm
Chan Tlalok." ....just remember who the real world terrorists have been since 1519? The Arab people never did wrong to my people,Apaches.,think about it? Who are known to have forked tongues?" For your information as Lindsey DTSW,say "...,the Arab nations were of course busy conquering and oppressing other nations and people, but certainly not the Apaches" Lindsey agree with your comment.
Chan, If the Arabs had come to Americas first [before Europeans] then they[Arabs] would have conquered America in the name of Allah and without any doubt all the first nations of Americas would have been converted to Islam and those who refused would have been put to sword.
Do you know what happened to the Byzantine Empire, Egyptians and most of North Africa.? Do you know how the Arabs colonized whole of West Africa,Sub-Sahara,and East Africa,and Zanzibar? It is shame that naive people like you and others here don't know much about muslim/arabic /islam history. Would you go to YouTube and type in " john alembillah azumah" and listen to him. also see www.thereligionofpeace.com and www.blip.tv/file/1382254 If you believe what Chomsky says then you will believe any thing.
 

Krasimira B. (175)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 4:07 pm
Great article! Thank you Carole for posting.
 

Krasimira B. (175)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 4:09 pm
You cannot currently send a star to Just and Constance because you have done so within the last week.
 

Rita A. (10)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 5:41 pm
Mea culpa - I grieve when I hear of anyone's murder, or the murder of many in war, war and more war (particularly during the Bush Oil Wars, when so obviously, the motivation has been and still is oil, oil, oil).

Re. Osama Ben Ladin's recent 'murder' and the 'murder' of his son, with family, including wife/mother present, my Christian soul cringes as my journalistice and legally trained mind mourns the loss of investigative ability, along with loss of rule of law.

Anyone with a brain cell working, who has not been totally brainwashed, Kochsucked, MSD'd (manipulated, spun, distracted a al karlroving by and through the corporate owned and controlled 'mess' media, etc.), including this brilliant author and educator, is right there with me questioning and questioning some more.

Again and again, it revolves back to the same question: Why no international trial? If Osama Ben Ladin was fairly convicted, worldwide mourning for 9/11 victims would have once again come about. Instead, the rumblings encircle the planet: The stupid Yanks are naive beyond belief. They were lied into war. Why ever are they not concerned that they may have been lied into believing Ben Ladin was and is totally guilty of all it's said he did. What if another huge lie came out during what international law calls for: a Neurenberg style war crimes trial? Our villainaire rulers and their Kochsucking pols and agents and the military/industrial/corporate/terrorism complex crowd would not like gettin' caught with their billion dollar pants down once again, now would they? So...

A Mafia style hit, with quick disposal of remains accomplished a lot in the way of creating the absolute opposite of transparency, did it not? Come on, dear sheeple, time to think critically and demand answers to loads of vital, liberty and justice for all questions.
 

Just Carole (338)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 5:45 pm

VERY well said, Rita!

 

Barbara D. (70)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 6:01 pm
Thank you, Carole and Rita, you've summarized the problems very well. How can we think of ourselves as they "good guys" if we act the same as the "bad guys"???
 

Yvonne White (232)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 6:03 pm
There are many ways to spin the killing of Bin Laden event - but I can't see the outcome making any difference for me or Americans in general.
I Never thought they would capture him for trial, I Always assumed he would be killed or die "at large".. but I also don't believe he was in any way a Master-mind, more like the voluntary scapegoat & media darling. So, he took the responsibility & he KNEW what that meant: he was a target. Any Leader knows the risks, all HAVE to assume they are Targets. Period. When & if they are assassinated, that's the breaks. Up until then, they do as they please - just ask Bu$h.
 

. (0)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 6:11 pm
Definitely our leaders make themselves targets, Yvonne. After all, being President of the U.S. is one of the most dangerous jobs in the country. Out of 43 men who served as President, four were assassinated - almost a 10% kill rate. And several others were wounded in assassination attempts (with many others surviving attempts without injury.) Definitely not a job I'd want if I thought I had around a 10% chance of being killed due to the job.
 

Tim Christopher (0)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 6:50 pm
I was assuming the military operation namesake of Geronimo was an esoteric reference to George HW Bush. Both he and son George were Bonesmen for their exclusive club at Yale and it is generally assumed that grandaddy Bush had absconded with Geronimo's bones. It WAS a death mission, no doubt and for the best. Also, the real dead body of Osama bin Laden is not at the bottom of the sea but awaits plastination and Gunther von Hagen's scalpel for anonymous inclusion in the Body Worlds road show.
 

Dandelion G. (380)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 7:18 pm
I am glad Noam Chomsky brought the next line up.

It’s like naming our murder weapons after victims of our crimes: Apache, Tomahawk… It’s as if the Luftwaffe were to call its fighter planes “Jew” and “Gypsy.”

I am dumbfounded at how many people are telling me on a story I submitted titled Code name "Geronimo" for Osama bin Laden is wrong, that turning Osama Bin Laden name to equate Geronimo is such an honor. That naming weapons of war is a sign of respect. The twisted logic behind that is astounding.

Geronimo wasn't a Terrorist he was Terrorized how does Geronimo.....EKIA honor him. To me they shot him again but this time he had another face attached.

How naming weapons after American Indians that were for the most part peaceful people be a sign of respect and honor? Had any American Indian asked for this to be the case? No, it is Dominent Cultures way of thinking and it is the same type of thinking that allowed this same Dominent Culture to slaugter innocent and unarmed women and children. The same type of thinking that allowed them to disregard the importance of another life and culture that lived upon the lands in North America for thousands of years. So only to the mind of Dominent Culture would they twist it to be an honor for as Noam stated to name the weapons after the victims of the military of the usa. I don't think the millions who died on this soil would find it amusing nor an honor.


 

Just Carole (338)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 7:23 pm

Kudos to you, Sheryl!

As long as we "buy in" to propaganda emphasizing the need to demonize others who are different (and/or perceived as roadblocks to the greedy profiteers), and continue to use that to justify carnage, we are doomed to a life of perpetual bigotry and murder.

 

Just Carole (338)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 7:23 pm
 
This incident has disturbed me to the point that I wasn't sure I wanted to "engage" in potentially volatile discussion about it in the News Network.
 
Instead, I posted as shares different pieces of correspondence I received from my many anti-war organizations.
 
The following, in my opinion, was the most eloquent:
 
Hate for Hate: Joystick Justice

By Gene Marx
 
Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars.     ~ Dr. Martin Luther King ~
 
Late Sunday night, with the weekend news cycle still squeezing the life out of the first royal kiss and "NATO's" targeted assassination attempt of Muammar Gaddafi, killing his youngest son Saif Al-Arab and three young grandchildren, provoking a mainstream media feeding frenzy not seen since Balloon Boy. The President would soon announce - within minutes, it was leaked - to a grateful, fearful, xenophobic nation that Osama Bin Laden had been taken out, double-whacked, by an elite team of American assassins in Pakistan.
 
As a jubilant mob of flag wavers on Pennsylvania Avenue were gathering within earshot, a somber Obama took the mike and delivered the goods, short on details, long on rhetoric. 
 
"No Americans were harmed. They took care to avoid civilian casualties."
 
AP reports disputed casualty counts at Bin Laden's compound from the start, but let's give Obama the benefit of the doubt. Let's say a Special Forces sniper or two surgically removed the devil incarnate from North Waziristan with a head shot, a pink mist burst clearly visible, without additional "bug splat," another one of the Pentagon's more compassionate references, as if pink mist wasn't dehumanizing enough. Real Xbox Call of Duty: Black Ops stuff. A military recruiter's wet dream.
 
And when did Obama start worrying about civilian casualties or collateral damage estimates anyway? His Hellfire missiles have been raining down on al Qaeda operative suspects since the first Afghan or Pakistani wedding parties were taken out within weeks of his Inauguration. 
 
"And yet we know that the worst images are those that were unseen to the world. The empty seat at the dinner table."
 
The "empty seat at the dinner table?"  With Drone kill rate estimates of 10-14 to 1 - innocent civilians to possible combatants - there have been hundreds of empty seats created by the CIA each week. And make no mistake, the whole world is watching. Of course, the US Air Force console ace in Nevada with the joystick could care less.
 
"Children who were forced to grow up without their mother or their father. Parents who would never know the feeling of their child's embrace. Nearly 3,000 citizens taken from us, leaving a gaping hole in our hearts."
 
Iraq war casualty figures released by WikiLeaks in October 2010 revealed more than 285,000 killed and wounded, with dead locals guilty only of proximity, comprising 63% of the toll - ninety per cent of these women and children.
 
Afghanistan by contrast, well there is no contrast actually. The civilian casualty counts continue to soar, with countless lost embraces, from the elders and the young, receding to wisps of recollection. According to the United Nations Assistance Mission in Afghanistan by at least 15% each year through 2010, nearly 2,800 in 2010 and 8,832 killed since 2006.
 
"On September 11, 2001, in our time of grief, the American people came together... We reaffirmed our ties to each other, and our love of community and country."
 
Like the reveling going on in Benghazi earlier in the weekend, with news of the NATO near-miss on Muammar Gadhafi and the collateral damage done to the Colonel's immediate family, an orgy of spontaneous celebrations spread from the White House fence, an epicenter for peace movement arrests, through the Heartland to the Left Coast. This time a different sort of exuberant intransigence garnered hugs, with a cordon of police protection, replacing indifference and zip cuffs reserved for anti-war resisters.
 
"The American people did not choose this fight. It came to our shores, and started with the senseless slaughter of our citizens. After nearly 10 years of service, struggle, and sacrifice, we know well the costs of war."
 
One could argue this point, in spite of poll ratings of seventy percent or higher in 2003, but the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts are currently being waged by choice. The senseless slaughter of civilians will no doubt continue, but the vast majority of Americans will never know wartime service, struggle, and sacrifice - and the true costs of war is another issue. However, many will, if they don't already, suffer the consequences of a war economy long before they can spell Afghanistan or even point it out on a map.
 
"Justice has been done."
 
Operation Geronimo and Bin Laden's demise was preordained long before 9/11, and if anyone needed to be served up some frontier justice it was the neocons' anti-Christ that lived long enough to realize his long war strategy come true - to bleed America to the point of bankruptcy. So excuse me if I don't wave a flag and join a crowd of discordant revelers in an off-key chorus of the Star Spangled Banner.
 
So where do we go from here.
 
First of all, the war is not over, even if we want it. Somewhere elite teams within the US Special Operations Forces are planning another predawn raid to mete out Pax Americana justice, streamlining otherwise cumbersome adjudications in the face of international scrutiny. Virtual reality or not, another high-value target's days are numbered and after all, the International Criminal Court is so passé.
 
Somewhere a suspected low-level operative is being stalked by a Predator or Reaper Drone, targeted for killing by a US foreign policy gone postal and willing to relinquish hearts and minds and international law for - or in spite of - collateral damage estimates. Unmanned Aerial Vehicle research and development has expanded the range of killer Drones to 40,000 miles, rewriting asymmetric warfare in response to real or imaginary bogeymen. Targeted assassinations and joystick justice, beginning in Yemen in 2002, now have a global reach.
 
So where were you the night Osama answered for 9/11 the easy way, and what were you thinking while Americans "reaffirmed their ties", reclaiming another much needed phantom victory with howls of "USA, USA" and suppressing any meaningful reflection on how we got to this point in history?
 
As the revelers paraded through my own neighborhood, thousands of miles from Ground Zero, and the reports of sporadic fireworks could still be heard, I thought of Martin Luther King Jr. We would have been reminded by King that while Osama bin Laden is no longer taking up useful space, the menace of his sway on global terrorism is alive and well; that "darkness cannot drive out darkness."
 
Somehow I miss Dr. King now more than ever.
 
Gene Marx is a Vietnam Vet and Secretary of the National Board of Directors for Veterans For Peace. He lives in Bellingham, Washington.
 
http://www.veteransforpeace.org/hate_4_hate_by_gene_marx.vp.html


 
 

Samantha Trosky (152)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 7:31 pm
My gf had me look up CounterPunch.com and I found an interesting article called, "Tells the Facts, Names the Names" Many of you may find this very interesting!
 

Frank Lornitzo (8)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 7:38 pm
I cannot relate to the complaints about burying Osama at sea, or keeping him alive at that. He is not at the head of any state or political party but a typical arch criminal living at ease while exploiting his flunkeys. Capturing him as we did with McVeigh of the Okhlahoma bombing might have been preferable as just proceeding if we did not have a problem governing our country. Governance is still the highest priority while we still have people conflating the name Osama with our President's first name. No favor for Osama or the conflating bloggers and hate groups.
 

. (0)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 7:55 pm
Actually, Dandelion, naming military hardware, etc. for particular noted warriors/leaders is nothing new and is meant to honor the one being named.

The "Pershing" missile (named for General John Pershing)
The "Sherman" tank (named for General Sherman)
The "Churchill" tank (named for Winston Churchill)
The "Stuart" tank (named for General Jeb Stuart)
The "Lee" and "Grant" tanks (named for Generals Lee and Grant)
The "Patton" tank (for General Patton)
The "Bradley" tank (for General Omar Bradley)
The "Cromwell" tank (named for Oliver Cromwell)

and so on.

And then there are all the battleships named for famous military figures and leaders, of course.

It's meant to honor the strength, courage, and military ability of the named one.

 

Erika L. (3)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 9:07 pm
i guess I can understand the thinking behind this article, but in order to be president of the US, you pretty much have to buy into a certain American mythology or you will not survive, or even be a viable candidate. It is a good thing to question that mythology, but it is pretty basic to who we are as a country and will prove exhausting to beat yourself up against it continually.
 

Jelica R. (157)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 9:18 pm

Great post, Carole.

From the article (which some commenting here obviously didn't read):

"In April 2002, the head of the FBI, Robert Mueller, informed the press that after the most intensive investigation in history, the FBI could say no more than that it “believed” that the plot was hatched in Afghanistan, though implemented in the UAE and Germany. What they only believed in April 2002, they obviously didn’t know 8 months earlier, when Washington dismissed tentative offers by the Taliban (how serious, we do not know, because they were instantly dismissed) to extradite bin Laden if they were presented with evidence—which, as we soon learned, Washington didn’t have. Thus Obama was simply lying when he said, in his White House statement, that “we quickly learned that the 9/11 attacks were carried out by al Qaeda.”

Nothing serious has been provided since. There is much talk of bin Laden’s “confession,” but that is rather like my confession that I won the Boston Marathon. He boasted of what he regarded as a great achievement."

Now, since when is U.S.A a prosecutor, a judge, an executor and an undertaker?

Another link Carole provided; Obama Administration: U.S. Forces Can Assassinate Americans is indicative of this "I-can-do-it-all-alone" tendency.

Maybe someone can explain this to me why does no one care about protecting non-US citizens from extra-judicial killings by the US? If I happen to be part of a theater of war, I do not expect the US government to hold judicial trials for everyone they kill as part of their war operations. Not that I like this, but I accept the unfortunate reality that war entails: killings happen, and human rights and judicial standards are lowered in times of war in places of war. But this situation is completely different from extra-judicial killing! So does the majority of Americans think that the US can just decide to kill anyone they want to anywhere in the world for whatever reason as long as the person is non-American and not in the US? So basically, the US could send a drone after anyone: mere critics of the US that don’t engage in any terrorist activities, economic opponents, taxi-driver in Afghanistan, political leaders reluctant to accommodate US requests to let’s say host a military base? And no matter where this person is? Yemen, Somalia, China, Russia, India, Germany, Sweden – all States that the US is not at war with?

I don’t understand why the outrage that was evoked when it became known that US-citizens could now be targeted was matched with a complete indifference of extra-judicial killing as such? What does this mean? That our lives as non-Americans are simply not worthy of protection? Should I not be granted the presumption of innocence and a due process? And this is not even to mention the respect that I would like to demand for the sovereignty of the countries that the US sends its drones too to engage in extra-judicial killings, that the US disregards by engaging in secret kidnappings etc. etc. Maybe the US administration and agencies should refresh their international law course!

And if this is the status quo today, that there is basically no respect for the (inexistent for the US government?) rights of non-Americans (you can make the same argument around the “enemy combatant” discussions and Guantanamo – standards for foreigners are basically inexistent), then does it surprise anyone that the government has now advanced to strip human rights also from its own citizens? This is unfortunately what you get once the concept of human rights and dignity has started to fade away.

It has happened in Europe before, and I hope it won’t repeat itself, neither in Europe nor in the US.

BTW, even if the US claims the right to assassinate only non-US citizens while they sleep or attend weddings or whatever, then I would have to suppose that every government of any nation must have the same right to assassinate anyone anywhere in the world that they feel is a threat, as long as they eventually issue disingenuous apologies for the “collateral damage” and pass out a few thousand dollars to surviving members of the bystander’s families.

Once this method of diplomacy catches on with all 195 countries in the world I’m sure that someone on Wall street will be glad to manage the compensation funds….
 

J. R. (0)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 9:57 pm
If 9/11 would have not happened many people would be still alive and most likely too Mr. bin Laden.
 

Earth SpiritKat (17)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 10:01 pm
Since I don't want to incur any karma by wishing that we should do this to to criminal bush as we {supposedly} did this {innocent of 9.11} OBL, I will refrain. There is a bigger picture to this story and it will come out soon...2012 changes will take care of the Bushes, his minions/cohorts,{ and the other dark ones in the world} that committed 9.11 and other atrocities in our country and other countries. Thanks for the article. be of love and light. As long as we give time/energy to this evil energy we are promoting the dark energy rather than love, light, peace, and harmony in the world and they will then continue to rule over us...God Bless America.

A PRAYER FOR AMERICA
Oh God of Light, Creator of the human races, King of Wisdom and the One Source of all, we rejoice that your Spirit lives within us.

We forgive ourselves and our fellow men for our complacency in America in allowing this great nation to be over-run with evil. We ask your Spirit within us to forgive us. Many times we have done nothing, while Satan's workers in their attempt to rule the world have taken away the unalienable freedoms you gave to us.

We ask now for the Hosts of Heaven to come and stand against the evil forces. We ask that your Spirit awaken our Earth people to Truth, and that they shall pray for this nation. We ask that all people shall begin right-living according to the Laws of God and Creation. May each individual be empowered to make a strong stand against the "lies" and darkness.

By working with the creative Power of God within us, we believe that America can once again be a shining Light of Truth to all the world. We believe that this nation can be a people of right-living. We believe that this has already begun.

We order now through our God Spirit that all evil forces on Earth be removed and cease to exist forever in {Esu} Jesus's name---that they not hinder any longer our battle for freedom and Truth. We give the Lighted Realms permission to assist us in making this so.

We ask for your protection as we confront evil. We ask for your courage and wisdom as we act, and we ask for your power to accomplish our mission.

May our original Constitution and our Bill of Rights be so re-established in the Republic of the United States of America. May the Laws of God and the Creation be established as the Supreme Law of this land. May we again become "one nation, under God, with liberty and justice for all." We walk in faith, believing that this shall be done.

Fill this land and our world with your Spirit of Love, and Hope, and Peace, and Joy. This is our prayer to our God-Spirit within us, to God of Light. We pray this in the name of Jesus---and in Heaven's sequence. Not our will, O God, but in all things let Your Will be done. So Be It!and so it is...Amen

 

Good H. (3827)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 10:11 pm
First, Bin Laden was the best friend of the US, and his family was best friends with Bushes family, via the Carlyle Group. Although he was a small monster child, the US loved Bin Laden and gave him the best of everything, so he grew up to be a BIG MONSTER, with training from the CIA, funding from the Pentagon and the best weapons money can buy...

Like all monsters, Bin Laden grew up and turned on the US, his 'parent'. So now we had to kill our own child MONSTER.. at a cost of 1.2 TRILLION dollars per year military and intelligence budget annually..

Scary monsters cost a LOT to kill, and we cannot have them hiding who knows where, maybe even under our BEDS or in our CLOSETS, or God Forbid, maybe even in our legislature... Monsters must be rooted out and eliminated, with no trial, no jury, no anything... just kill them all, and let God sort them out. There are no rules when it comes to monsters, as monsters have no rules either..

These monsters of fear lurk everywhere, behind every bush and in our dreams even... Wow, can Special Forces go there?
 

Dana W. (9)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 10:18 pm
This article has really brought out strong emotions in the comments area.
 

Ronald N. (3)
Sunday May 8, 2011, 10:56 pm
Thanks Just Carole. Noam Chomsky is simply going to upset the minds of those who can't read between the lines of American propaganda. It is not to say we have enemies that hate us but we need to realize the relationship of the United States with Osama bin Laden without isolating him simply as our enemy. So the history goes back a long way, just as our history does with Saddam Hussein and many of the dictators that we used. Hardly, the dialogue falls upon the history of the United States that we simply can't see ourselves as our own enemy. In many ways villification is the game of American propaganda, yet we as struggling and totally censored as a people from the 9/11 Truth perspective. Even our president has made a point that this was contrary to the American way and these types of people were dangerous to America. We as Americans should be inquisitive and should want to know the facts. If history has taught us anything, we have seen the muddying of history by controversy and total denial by conspiracy theories that have been deemed dead ends by our government. These thoughts in essence have become taboo no less than if dictators in our country have elaborately made their point to make conspiracies taboo. That is why John F Kennedy, MLK, Bobby Kennedy and a slew of other facts of American history are lost without answers. No doubt American history is mired in rubbish propaganda that favors American elites. It is as if the long line of unanswered conspiracies are finally reaching critical mass. What is so sad is history explains how politics have superceded truth. We celebrate these heroes of the past who died suddenly with questionable deaths, yet our country truly doesn't exemplify what these heroes would would support, today.

Anger and hate are too strong words that dominate our scene. We saw it when we saw the rally of kids overjoyed at the death of bin Laden. It proves nothing but only aknowledges the "War Against Terror" is alive and well. Americans have become a nation that loves war and care not listen to anyone against it. It keeps the American status in check for further recruits and further wars. It is jingoistic and so diabolical.

The parallels and distinction of how the Noam Chomsky makes upon how Native Americans titles and objects are used by our military, is of course slanderous. Geronimo of course had his bones stolen (Skull & Bones) by Prescott Bush who happens to be GWBush's grandpa and now used by special forces to define bin Laden. Of course the Tomohawk Missles and the Apache Helicoptor all a part of our history in using WMD with America's natives. I would have to say the indigenous Americans through most of their history have never been treated so badly. Not only badly, it is as if Native Americans are even a part of such a culture while their lands are being mined for uranium and their tailings left to pollute their lands. If that isn't bad, the lands of the Shoshone Nevada tribes are the slated dumping grounds for nuclear wastes!
 

Parvez Zuberi (7)
Monday May 9, 2011, 4:29 am
thanks for the article Bush the American Hitler should not go unpunished take legal action by filing case in court in Hague for crime against humanity
 

Dandelion G. (380)
Monday May 9, 2011, 6:50 am
Pershing, Sherman, Churchill, and Lee among the other names never had the weight of the us military coming after them. Even the Civil War names both sides were at least considered Dominent Culture and were part of the United States. They chose to be at odds with each other over issues within the same Country. One the other hand Geronimo was a member of a seperate nation that was under attack by the us military simply due to the fact he was there. Churchill being from the UK was still not attacked by the us military.

Again, maybe from Dominent Cultures perspective it is an honorable thing to have weapons and tanks named after these men, but this is not the case for American Indians in particular when the Indians have been at the sorrowful end of this Nations acts of aggression towards them. Please people I'm asking you to step outside of the normal way of thinking and see it from anothers point of view. Those who are speaking from Indian Country are not honored and do not feel this as a sign of respect. Why is it so hard to understand that?

When a group of people are stating they are insulted, hurt, feel there is lack of respect in what was done, why can this not be a learning curve for the Leaders in Washington, the Pentagon and the general population at large? Why must the unexcusable continued to be excused?

Thank you Ronald N who said the below:

The parallels and distinction of how the Noam Chomsky makes upon how Native Americans titles and objects are used by our military, is of course slanderous. Geronimo of course had his bones stolen (Skull & Bones) by Prescott Bush who happens to be GWBush's grandpa and now used by special forces to define bin Laden. Of course the Tomohawk Missles and the Apache Helicoptor all a part of our history in using WMD with America's natives. I would have to say the indigenous Americans through most of their history have never been treated so badly. Not only badly, it is as if Native Americans are even a part of such a culture while their lands are being mined for uranium and their tailings left to pollute their lands. If that isn't bad, the lands of the Shoshone Nevada tribes are the slated dumping grounds for nuclear wastes!
 

Alice Liddell (62)
Monday May 9, 2011, 7:10 am
Chomsky, the hero of addle headed, acne ravaged , adolescent anarchists everywhere, is a long time member of both Democratic Socialists of America and the Communist Party USA spin-off, Committees of Correspondence for Democracy and Socialism.

It is also worth remembering that as recently as 2006, Chomsky was a leader of Movement for a Democratic Society with former Weather Underground terrorist leaders and Barack Obama supporters Bill Ayers, Bernardine Dohrn, Jeff Jones and Mark Rudd.[sic]

~ Alice
 

Good H. (3827)
Monday May 9, 2011, 7:53 am
So if Communist China is now our most favored trading nation and buddy, due to financing the multiple global wars we are in with Communist borrowed money, does that make Communists are best buddies here in the US also? I guess Noam Chomsky fits that mold, so why not? Part of fear is labeling and boxing 'others' that are different from us. Anyone who disagrees with our accepted world view or belief system is a 'terrorist', who must be killed, deported, tortured or worse.

Thinking along the lines of we are right, and they are wrong easily leads to dictatorships, much like the one we have in the US, where Capitalism is the God of RIGHT, and everyone else is wrong. Corporations rule through an army of lobbyists, an ocean of cash and politicians controlled by corporations for profit.

Capitalism being right and Socialism being wrong led to corporations taking over in the US, so no real democracy by the people is left. It also led to the two major parties locking out all third parties. If a third party ever got any votes, (Ralph Nader) they were blamed for 'losing' an election of the 'RIGHT' party. Even the media and what is aired on it, is also controlled by, you guessed it, the corporations who own them along with those who air the ads, thereby controlling what is allowed to be seen and heard.
 

Lyn Z. (293)
Monday May 9, 2011, 9:34 am
Thanks Carole.
 

Abdessalam Diab (154)
Monday May 9, 2011, 10:08 am
Surjit
I think you have to learn more about the spread of Islam.Islam had been adopted by Indonesians,Malaysians,Chinese,Japanese,west and south Africa although no single Arab soldier went there.Please try to read something about Islam of these countries as an example and I hope Allah will lead you to the truth.
 

Jim Phillips (3209)
Monday May 9, 2011, 10:57 am
Great article by Noam Chomsky - Big Green Stars!

Another chapter has been closed with the death of osama bin laden.

A great headline, for me, would be that bush and his cronies are arrested for War Crimes...

TY, C.
.
 

Carlene V. (203)
Monday May 9, 2011, 11:12 am
While Norm Chomsky attempts to bring up more questions on the killing of bin Laden, bottom line is this - he ordered the mass killing of over 3,000 US citizens then bragged about it and continued with his evil plan to kill even more. Good riddance bin Laden, enjoy your swim. He gets no sympathy at all and completely deserved what he got. Why capture him and let him be glorified by his crazed followers? Obama made the correct decision we need to stop splitting hairs on this one.
 

caterina caligiuri (77)
Monday May 9, 2011, 1:50 pm
Interesting article...thanks
 

Matthew Cloner (122)
Monday May 9, 2011, 1:56 pm
You can just imagine what would have happened if bin Laden had been granted a fair trial in front of the entire world. I wonder what he would have said in his defense? I bet we would have heard some very interesting things. Too bad, because he was denied that opportunity.
 

Earth SpiritKat (17)
Monday May 9, 2011, 2:12 pm
There is also the not-inconsequential matter that several people may have died in the Abbottabad mansion in the pursuit of this policy and that those deaths were caused while knowing that Osama bin Laden was not in the mansion and had been dead for perhaps a decade.

That a court of law (perhaps the ICC) will have to adjudicate. I don’t even know how to think about the matter. And supporting the action would necessitate me supporting the killings, which I won’t do. Altogether not a happy situation.

 

Trish K. (93)
Monday May 9, 2011, 2:12 pm
Very interesting commentary here. I believe the right call was made and well executed. The End
 

Good H. (3827)
Monday May 9, 2011, 4:55 pm
First they came for the terrorists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a terrorist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.
 

Jelica R. (157)
Monday May 9, 2011, 9:14 pm

I find this is appropriate for this topic (todays care2 daily quote):

"What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?"

- Mahatma Gandhi

*Just think about it...
 

Just Carole (338)
Monday May 9, 2011, 9:45 pm

That's a very sad truth, Jelica. And it will be so until people start attempting to resolve problems with diplomacy, and not violence.

The wars of imperialism, which are draining this country's resources -- and with them, the futures of present citizens and their present and yet-born children -- are not being fought for noble reasons. As such, and if we stay this course, a percentage of any of our offspring (and theirs) are destined to be used as war fodder, while profiteers make money from it, with which they continue to buy our representatives, judicial system, media, and eventually, our hope.

There must be a point where the American people stop glorifying bloodshed, and say "STOP! We're not buying it any more."

Another good question? How can it be that America was so instrumental in bringing about the Nuremburg Trials (participating as a prosecutor and two judges) against some of the most heinous war crimes (and criminals) imaginable . . . but resorted to cold-blooded murder when faced with bringing its own chief suspect to justice?

There is no amount of government self-serving propaganda that will make me stop asking the necessary questions and expressing my extreme disappointment and disgust.

 

Just Carole (338)
Monday May 9, 2011, 9:48 pm

(Typo correction: "Nuremberg.")

 

Dandelion G. (380)
Tuesday May 10, 2011, 7:10 am
You cannot currently send a star to Just because you have done so within the last week.
For your quote on Monday May 9, 2011, 9:45 pm

Sadly, it seems to be difficult concept for many to pick up on. Is why I say, weapons and being named for them, how can that be an honor. To have had the weight of this Country put upon you and then to have various killing machines named after people or the items that were used by this segment of people.

We need an economy and policies based on peace and bringing our infrastructure into the future creating the needed green jobs, creating the technologies that will advance all of society around the world. Why can't we be a Leader in that direction? Why must we be the most weaponized Nation on this Earth that goes into the poorest Countries upon this Earth?

Look at the good this nation could do if it was instead building schools and providing books for children in these Countries that have little. Do you think that those children receiving educations, clean drinking water, and hope for a better future would be so inclined to want to join terrorist groups? Terrorist groups that many are created because of the thoughtless policies that this Country has carried out.

If Dominent Culture thinks it's such an honor to have tanks, warplanes, missiles and whatever named after them, then what does that tell you? That the Country honors war and the destruction that comes with wars. It is the same non thinking attitude that keeps Columbus Day on the Calendar as a Day of honor. Why?

Under Columbus command his troops enslaved a people to extract the resources to send to Spain. That turned those peaceful people who were minding their business lives and land into ruin. That Columbus enslaved those people and worked them to their deaths. He used their children as sex slaves and used their babies for dog food as the dogs ripped them apart while they were still alive. Yet the United States honors this man? Like how sick is that.

Years later this same type of thinking was played out by new players but now Geronimo and his people were in the way among other tribal nations. Now today the Navajo are in the way so they are being moved without thought to those people so that the minerals can be extracted beneath them. Elders torn from their lands and people dying of sick hearts, while the Peabody Coal Company makes billions from the coal and pollultes the water of the area. Another form of killing. Perhaps if the coal trucks and excavation machines were named after some Navajo people would that make them feel Honored?

When these gentle people wouldn't move then the United States came in and slaughtered their sheep so now the Navajo had no wool to make blankets that they sold to buy food, so they were forced moved one way or another. Today sheep in the past it was the buffalo. Now with the Fracking, non Indians stand in the way all over the United States for the natural gas, so look out if you live somewhere they want the minerals below your feet.

Green Road posted this comment on his comment above and I know Carole has it on her page.

First they came for the terrorists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a terrorist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

I'd rather have school buildings named after me, and I'm sure the First Nations people would not be upset if it was a school buildings or water wells named after them. I'd rather start defunding the wars and increase the monies to the Peace Institute that was defunded. The one mission of the Peace Institute is how to resolve the various conflicts peacefully, yet our Leaders defunded it, yet increase the war machine funds.

We need as a Nation to get straight with it's priorities and it's thinking. How can we on one hand claim certain rights of humanity and yet pick and choose when we use those rights?

Oh I was called a whiner, having a pity party, nit picking at the President, and on and on it went, because I ran two threads trying to open people's minds as to why Geronimo shouldn't been used as a code name for Bin Laden. As with this article, Carole is just trying to get people to do some questioning and looking outside the box, as was I trying to do. Just because it has always been done this way doesn't mean it is right or correct. Isn't that the definition of stupid doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

If we are always finding ourselves in War and war after war, we need to examine why is that? Until we do that then the power players are going to go on business as usual and the masses will follow the bait time and time again, hook, line, and sinker............and we are certainly sinking.



 

Just Carole (338)
Tuesday May 10, 2011, 10:58 am
 
Excerpts from the following article:
"American Justice": The Targeted Assassination of Osama Bin Laden

Extrajudicial executions are unlawful
 
"When he announced that Osama bin Laden had been killed by a Navy Seal team in Pakistan, President Barack Obama said, “Justice has been done.” Mr. Obama misused the word "justice" when he made that statement. He should have said, "Retaliation has been accomplished." A former professor of constitutional law should know the difference between those two concepts. The word "justice" implies an act of applying or upholding the law."
"Targeted assassinations violate well-established principles of international law. Also called political assassinations, they are extrajudicial executions. These are unlawful and deliberate killings carried out by order of, or with the acquiescence of, a government, outside any judicial framework."
"Extrajudicial executions are unlawful, even in armed conflict. In a 1998 report, the United Nations Special Rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions noted that “extrajudicial executions can never be justified under any circumstances, not even in time of war.” The U.N. General Assembly and Human Rights Commission, as well as Amnesty International, have all condemned extrajudicial executions."
 
"After the Holocaust, Winston Churchill wanted to execute the Nazi leaders without trials. But the U.S. government opposed the extrajudicial executions of Nazi officials who had committed genocide against millions of people. U.S. Supreme Court Justice Robert H. Jackson, who served as chief prosecutor at the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal, told President Harry Truman: 'We could execute or otherwise punish [the Nazi leaders] without a hearing. But undiscriminating executions or punishments without definite findings of guilt, fairly arrived at, would . . . not set easily on the American conscience or be remembered by children with pride.' ”
 
 
 

Just Carole (338)
Tuesday May 10, 2011, 11:00 am
 
The author of the above:
 
Marjorie Cohn is a professor at Thomas Jefferson School of Law and past president of the National Lawyers Guild. She is deputy secretary general of the International Association of Democratic Lawyers. Her latest book, “The United States and Torture: Interrogation, Incarceration and Abuse” was published earlier this year by NYU Press. See www.marjoriecohn.com
 
 
 

Just Carole (338)
Tuesday May 10, 2011, 11:37 am
 
There is currently a bill in the House of Representatives that should be of extreme interest to American citizens; and I suggest you read and sign the following petition from Human Rights First:
 
Fight the Militarization of Law Enforcement and Federal Courts
 
"Congress is considering a bill in the House that would: give the President unfettered authority to go to war in Iran, Indonesia, and elsewhere to fight terrorists; require local law enforcement and the FBI to turn over to military custody any terror suspects, including American citizens, captured in the United States without trial; and make the failed experiment at Guantanamo permanent by barring federal court prosecution of prisoners held there and barring repatriation of innocent men stuck there unless ordered by a court to transfer them."
 
 
 

Dandelion G. (380)
Tuesday May 10, 2011, 3:05 pm
We should be very concerned by this bill in the House of Representatives. Very concerned. Thank you for bringing it to our awareness.
 

Just Carole (338)
Tuesday May 10, 2011, 3:08 pm

Thanks for any help readers here can exert to promote it!

(I've already started a petition at Change.org.)

 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday May 10, 2011, 4:47 pm
This is getting scary as hell, Carole.
As a concerned world citizen and friend of democratic America, I pray that you muster your courage and numbers to fight the losses of freedom and perversions of justice that you are experiencing.
 

Abdessalam Diab (154)
Wednesday May 11, 2011, 9:21 am
Petition signed.Thanks Carole
 

Vernon Huffman (23)
Friday May 13, 2011, 5:20 pm
Let us not forget that as soon as the US government announced that bin Laudin had perpetrated 9/11 and was hiding out in Afghanistan, the Taliban offered to extradite him and anyone else if the US government filed charges against them, but Bush insisted upon war, which Obama has escalated.

Now the symbol is gone, let's stop all pretenses and get all our troops and mercenaries out of Afghanistan.
 

Past Member (0)
Friday May 13, 2011, 5:36 pm
Yes Vernon Bin Laden was offered to the US government on a plate but they refused. Hence the war we did not need. Bloodshed, profits derived from the war machine, and death will never replace diplomacy.
 

Maria Cristina A. (119)
Wednesday May 18, 2011, 4:45 am
Let me just say this Carole:

It's always a mind feeding pleasure to read the discusions your posts "give birth to"! :)

Personally, I don't think it was such a great idea what was done. It actually didn't bring real "closure" to those who believe themselves to be victims of Bin Laden's actions (wether truthfully or not, I do not debate it). Many think it did, but I don't think so. That wasn't JUSTICE.
The Judicial Powers and systems came to existance and are what they are today BECAUSE of situations like this, AND to avoid mistakes, AND to let the whole society to realise that whoever was convicted it was becaue the law was equal for all and it was applied not just because someone was the strongest, but because the community felt that the sentenced person did something wrong.

This feels much more like "I can't do it lawfuly, so I'll do it anyway". And it brings along with it the stench of revenge. I hope we are prepared for it, for revengr knows no friend or foe...
 

Jelica R. (157)
Thursday May 19, 2011, 6:10 am

Here is the Opening Statement before the International Military Tribunal given by Robert H. Jackson, Chief of Counsel for the United States. It is lengthy, but very worth reading and reflecting.
 

Jelica R. (157)
Thursday May 19, 2011, 6:20 am

In my previous comment I forgot to add date and place: Nuremberg, Germany; November 21, 1945.

Another comprehensively report: The Washington post editorial; National Top-Secret System. The vast, secretive world that the U.S. government created in response to the 9/11 terrorist attacks. It was posted in 4 parts, starting July 19, 2010.
 

Just Carole (338)
Thursday May 19, 2011, 6:21 am

Wow! Thanks for providing that information, Jelica. I just started scanning it and yes, it is lengthy, but a tremendous historical representation. I have bookmarked it for future reference and in-depth reading.

 

Past Member (0)
Thursday May 19, 2011, 6:26 am
Why wasn't Bin Laden brought to trial rather than murdered and dumped in the sea? Justice has not been seen to be done. Shame on you USA.
 

Jelica R. (157)
Thursday May 19, 2011, 7:41 am

The Nuremberg Trial was not important solemnly to prosecute Nazis. Equally important, I think, was to leave a documented case for next generations, so nobody can question Nazi regime's role in WWII slaughter; as well as to implement a procedure for handling such atrocities by international community. Sad to see it all went down the drain with this questionable "war on terror".

You can't get the criminals, and terrorists are criminals, by carpet bombing a country. It is intelligence work, silly, and Bin Laden's locating proved it. He must had been brought to justice, if only to prove how outdated his worldview vision was. Didn't recent Arab uprisings all refuse his support?
 

Matthew Cloner (122)
Thursday May 19, 2011, 11:44 am
Bin Laden was not brought to trial because if he was, he would've implicated the United States in the events surrounding 9/11. I suspect that bin Laden was on the CIA's payroll for a number of years, just like Lee Harvey Oswald. And Oswald was also killed before he could be brought to trial. Our government was more concerned about what would come out of their mouths than they were about justice.
 

jane richmond (10)
Sunday July 10, 2011, 9:12 am
thanks
 

Ronald N. (3)
Sunday July 10, 2011, 11:45 am
Yes, truly he worked for the CIA. He had to have been during the Soviet incursion into Afghanistan. Looking back a history of bin Laden truly reveals much. I like the note of comparison of Bin laden to Lee Harvey Oswald. The politics is stunning when one realizes the motivations behind people with power. Presently those who are ostracized are beaten into the ground and one shouldn't be surprised that the American media has an easy time convincing who are the villains vs. who are the saviors of the world.

The crisis of the IMF chief, Dominique Strauss-Kahn truly villainized, and at the time, a probable opponent to Sarcozy who is working for austerity in France. While Strauss-Kahn much maligned by the incident, as many other politicans have enemies. There are always reasons why the public buys the information fed to us by the press. They are powerful and need to be examined thoroughly for their media releases, as well as thier motives. That would hold true for all political blockbuster news!
 
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