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Rabbi Arthur Waskow | Gaza-Israel Violence: The Fuller Story


World  (tags: Gaza-Israel, Rabbi_Arthur_Waskow, truth, 'HUMANRIGHTS!' )

Carole
- 1413 days ago - opednews.com
In this report to readers and members of The Shalom Center, I will be filling in that back story with reports from the Israeli and Palestinian press.



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Comments

Kit B. (276)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 11:42 am

Excellent article that details the "causes" for this current war of adventure and advantage by Israel, that just happens to occur, at election time.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 11:45 am

Thanks, Kit. As I said in my message to friends:

"This is a very contentious issue, but one I don't feel we're all getting unbiased information on. As such, I welcomed Rabbi Waskow's two-sided contribution and timeline."

 

Judy C. (104)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 12:28 pm
This article is to be commended for objectivity. Watching this violence unfold is like watching a train wreck on an endless loop. Thanks, Carol.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 12:42 pm

I subscribe to the Shalom Center newsletter, and have for years. I admire the Rabbi's very outspoken conviction to truth and peace.

 

Roxy H. (348)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 1:01 pm
wonderful, so there is an end to this? Hope? This is uplifting TY !
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 1:04 pm

Yes, it is VERY complex and centuries of animosity -- from both sides.

We cannot change the past, but we must address the present.

The only way this can end is with peaceful resolution. I find it pointless to keep wagging fingers and demonizing one side or the other. That only aggravates and divides the useful minds that could use their resources to work together for the answer.

 

JL A. (282)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 1:17 pm
You cannot currently send a star to Just because you have done so within the last week.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 1:21 pm

The victims in this, and every war-like scenario, are NOT the decision-makers, influenced by secretive, and many times dark, motives.

The majority of the casualties of war are women and children. In most cases, they were simply trying to raise a family -- with the same virtues (love, civility, honor, familial ties) that ALL humans aspire to. Instead, both Israeli and Palestinian innocents are living a nightmarish hell (one, that will also taint their futures, due to their memories and distrust).

Anyone with compassion should be able to see it!

 

Roxy H. (348)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 1:34 pm
See Carole, you know me, I work for the victims and see only compassion and don't really understand many issues... and many people don't see that o.0 and I feel silly admitting that... :( But I am Old and set in my ancient ways now... hippie mother earth has settled into me, and I really don't think I will be changing before i float off into the neverlife... But I have a fellow animal activist there and I want to make sure she is ok, and I cry for her every night when i hear there is bombs going off... so i see this news and care2 is my family. you all give me the real news..and i expect that from family... so thank you... I would never tell anyone else my secrets but you. i love you ... :)
 

Kit B. (276)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 1:35 pm

I left this comment on another site, that was, I suppose rabidly pro-Israel. I don't know why or how people can treat war as if it were a football game. The "players" do not get up and go home. The fans are cheering for death and destruction, all to often those are children dying. I'm not responsible for the unfortunate comments made to Carole on that site, but I felt uncomfortable, just reading those comments. She was trying to make the point, that innocents are dying, that no one wins a war, everyone loses, for that she was treated badly.

I wish others would stop giving support to one "team" or the other. Many know that the Palestinian people live a dreadful life, and that the action of their government as the actions of the Israeli government do not represent the desires of the people. Human beings the world over want peace, an opportunity to provide a shelter, food and education for themselves and their children. War is not desired by the people, only by political leaders.


As long as the world takes sides, as long as humans find excuses there will be war. In WWII 65 million people died, and in the end, who won any thing? Children were left without parents, countries devastated, and in the end, there were no winners, only those who lost more.

The background of the exodus to Israel is clear and the reasons known. Any two countries living in this proximity can find common ground for resolution of the issues, but it's politically advantageous to not make a settlement nor an agreement.

So while some of you celebrate another victory for Israel, please think that innocents on both sides of this are dying. There is nothing here to support, that is unless you believe war is ever an answer.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 1:45 pm

Roxy, girl . . . you know I love you too. I also have friends in that area (and those who suffered through Iraq and the abominations that occurred there).

Kit, as always, another voice of reason.

I am blessed by my humane friends (but not with green stars to distribute, *wink*). I'm an, admitted, "peacenik," who never thinks war is the answer.

There's a difference between sudden attack and the need for immediate defense. (I can understand that, and would do the same.) But, not after so many years of continuous conflict.

 

Past Member (0)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 1:59 pm
noted--ty
 

Mary T. (178)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 2:01 pm
Thanks Carole, I agree with Kit on this.
 

Kit B. (276)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 2:17 pm

Where oh, where are those green stars when ya need them? Probably hiding under the bed with the cats.
 

mag.w.d. Aichberger (34)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 2:55 pm
Interesting.
(e.g.) comparing the timeline given here, and comment "Netanyahu and Barak have decided to deliberately violate a cease-fire which had just been stabilized" with what MSM are reporting, one could think they were from different universes.

 

Angelika R. (143)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 3:04 pm
sorry I too am out of stars.... bless your heart Carole for posting it. You know I also subsribe and have in fact replied to his email thanking him and praising.
 

Angelika R. (143)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 3:10 pm
I want to add, to remind everyone of the facts, be sure to go to the IMEU website and check out Israel's long standing record of breaking ceasefires ever since 1948..
 

Angelika R. (143)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 3:14 pm
Amy Goodman also highlightes on this weeks DN show the fact that the assassination of Jibari (? forgot his name) came just as there was a new truce proposal from HIS SIDE !
Hamas Commander Was Assassinated Hours After Receiving Truce Deal from Israel
 

Angelika R. (143)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 3:22 pm
If you read Uri Avneri's blog, he even speaks of a deliberate trap planned long ahead by Israel.
 

Angelika R. (143)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 3:33 pm
I just wish this nightmarish hell that currently the ISRAELIS are living would cause an impact on the Jan election, but unfortunately they are so trained to accept this as almost normal and will probably approve their prime minister again...so those hellish nightmares and nightmarish hells will repeat and repeat, and repeat..
Not saying that another leader would deal with this issue much differently, but then there is at least a chance for this. Certainly never with Bibi though.
 

Yvonne White (229)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 4:45 pm
OMG..did the Bu$h League take over Israel? Electioneering via War is Old School Israel alright.. even when they have a Truce..that's too New School RepubliCON!:( America could save a LOT of money by Forcing Peace on both sides! Send Jimmy Carter back to relay OUR demands! We've done it to other countries, why NOT Israel & the Palestinians?????
 

JL A. (282)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 4:53 pm
"War is not healthy for children and other living things."
 

Michael Carney (219)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 5:16 pm
Thanks Carole...
 

Alexander Werner (53)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 5:22 pm
Angelika, this hell that Arab extremists forced on them is quite old. It started well before israel was created, passed through three wars started by Arabs, Arab boycott of Israel, which exists even today and then terrorism.

Israelis know that they have to endure it because they have no option. Arabs want all of Israel and don't care how many of them get killed - Paradise is open for all martyrs. Obviously, Israelis will fight for their right to live in freedom and independence.


 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 5:38 pm

For those who may be innocently unaware, the algorithm used in rating Care2 stories is actually complex (and totally computerized -- with no relevance given to the topic or submitter).

In order for a story to got to "Front Page," is must receive "X" amount (depending on its news category) of note-its within a certain time frame (usually 24 hours); and with enough comments, it also becomes "hot."

For that same story to remain among the "most popular," it must keep receiving comments and note-its. It's not just a matter of who had the most note-its; there are many other factors involved in the equation.

 

Devon Leonard (54)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 5:45 pm
All of this is heartbreaking. The focus now just needs to be on cease fire, negotiations, and a priority to keep working on a peaceful resolution. The alternative is too horrific to speak of. I will choose the higher road. I choose Life............. Far better to be "for" something, than to ensnare yourself in the pit's of hatred. After all we really all are in this together.
 

Angelika R. (143)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 5:47 pm
should we flag? Please stop using caps, that is against the terms here.
 

Kit B. (276)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 5:49 pm

I have no idea what this (.) person is on about, I see far more stories that are supportive of the policies of Israel than those who hope to show a more balanced knowledge base. It might be worth adding Carole that some stories may not appear on the "Front Page" that does not mean that the person that submitted those articles does not receive a golden note. To quote a writer that I for one am fond of...."Much Ado About Nothing..."
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 5:52 pm

The saddest thing is that these complainers have not even taken the time to see that the article was written by a Rabbi and is totally UNBIASED.

[Shaking my head -- in "somewhat" disbelief.]

 

Kit B. (276)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 5:53 pm

I do believe in free speech I do not believe that others should abuse that privilege. *flagged*
 

Yvonne White (229)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 5:54 pm
Uhmm, how can this anonymous "person" post anything on Care2? Smells fishy & totally Reich-wing!
 

Angelika R. (143)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 5:55 pm
@ Patricia - not even 10thousand notes could right a wrong.
 

Kit B. (276)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 5:56 pm

Then again, that does require reading the article. Something these trolls could not be bothered to do.

Those who do know me, know that I flag SPAM and rarely flag others for saying even disagreeable things, some have to push that beyond the pale.
 

Yvonne White (229)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 5:58 pm
Flagged by reporting "whiner rant against Care2"!;)
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 6:06 pm

Maybe it's just me but, what difference does it make if one story is more "popular" than another? (I've seen absolute fluff beat out real news many times . . . often just due to its storyline or the popularity of the submitter.)

When I submit something -- and it's not often -- and because I think it's significant. I want my friends to read it as well; and if they agree, to pass it on to their friends.

Just like the real world, yesterday's news is no news.

 

Ros G. (73)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 6:20 pm
Kit B I'm with you all the way. Peace and Goodwill to all and I mean all. I do not want peoples' sons or daughters dying because of these outdated ideologies. There is no right in that - no matter who you are. This is not about Defense - it's all about Offence. You offended me - now I will offend - by taking your life.

The war of words can become the death of the lands and so many people play into it.

A Green Star is coming your way if I haven't sent you one this week.

"BLESSED ARE THE PEACE MAKERS FOR THEY WALK WITHOUT FEAR IN THEIR HEARTS'
 

Kit B. (276)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 6:23 pm

Now you've done it, that logic Carole, it's just not acceptable when jealousy and personal ego is involved and for reasons I don't know that is what this is about. (sarcasm intended) Personal ego, not the issues. I have one rule, I read before I note a story. I may not be inclined to comment on every thing I read, that doesn't mean I have not read or seen some of the nonsense that passes as news. That is of course, in the hands of the Care2 readership, it is they who must decide what is accepted as news or nonsense.

I have doubts that those in charge of Care2 are vested in being on one side of any issue.
 

Kit B. (276)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 6:26 pm

Thanks Ros, I can not send you green star...but I "hear ya".

Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it.
~Adolph Hitler

In war, truth is the first casualty. --- ~Aeschylus

Any excuse will serve a tyrant. --- ~Aesop
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 6:29 pm

Yeah, I have a problem with logic . . . I'm addicted to it.

 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 6:33 pm

(Have to say this. I'm re-reading the comments from . (7) and they ARE reminding me of much spam -- usually promoting ED products -- I've gotten 30 points for reporting when I log into the Newly Submitteds in the morning.)

Maybe it's the screaming.

 

JL A. (282)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 6:47 pm
Kit, I could send Ros--it was deserving indeed! Carole, format is indeed like the spam I see and report.
 

Angelika R. (143)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 6:52 pm
well Carole, occasionally yesterdays news might still be news, at least I feel that way when viewing this article from 2009 ( I posted it tonight but had read it long before):
http://www.care2.com/news/member/153110506/3487052 ( War and Natural Gas: The Israeli Invasion and Gaza's Offshore Gas Fields) .
and when you read this article from September 23, 2012 it gives you food for thought what this war might be all about..( seems familiar?)
http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-agrees-to-develop-gas-field-with-palestinians/
 

Angelika R. (143)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 6:58 pm
it would be so much nicer to develop those resources without Palestinians, wouldn't it... who likes to share.
 

Mitchell D. (136)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 6:58 pm
Very interesting view of things.
As Michael Parenti says, in "Democracy for the Few," the media, creates our sense of reality, and if we only get one side of a story we see that as "the facts."
On a side note, that is what Fox does with its Fauxnews, for those who swear by it, perhaps the Teabaggers.
 

Mitchell D. (136)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 7:00 pm
P.S.: An inference in the story is that the fighting was purposely started before Israeli elections, in order to effect the results thereof: This would be FAR from the first time a government used such a tactic.
 

Roxy H. (348)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 7:29 pm
Well. as far as being in the front page... my blm horse story hit the front page almost 6 days after i posted it... SO does that stand for rigged care2? I think it was because all of a sudden the dude on it was being investigated...and his name happens to be salazar..and the topic and who is on the headlines..and the number of people posting... like i tell jae all the time..if i get all my team chattering on one of his popcorn threads we could bump it onto the front page and watch the (.) trolls get on and laugh at him..but he is so cool and smooth... sigh... would have to find someone not so smooth...hmmmmm??? new target...think think...I am on vacation for 3 weeks ....hmmmm
 

Ros G. (73)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 7:55 pm
Thanks Kit B & JLA ...I had extremely good teachers - My parents were teenagers in Nazi Germany (non-jewish) always told me not to let anybody take my thinking. Adolph Hilter was right in what he said and give it a good splattering of hate - others will do the rest for you. We make our own ememies - the hate spruikers are alive and well. Peace and Happiness to you both.
 

Alexander Werner (53)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 8:17 pm
Just Carole, the person who wrote the story had no facts and a great desire to be heard. He is not the only one like that.

He wrote pro-Arab nonsense and for unknown reasons you decided to post it. It's OK and we do have a freedom of speech here on Care2. But nonsense remains nonsense, and Arab terrorists bombing civilians cities with rockets launched near schools and hospitals do constitute double war crimes - against both Israeli and Gaza civilian population.

It is unfortunate that Israel may have to come to Gaza to eliminate those Islamist monsters. when Israel left Gaza to give peace a chance, these situation with rockets was not what was expected from Palestinian Arabs.
 

Ros G. (73)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 10:51 pm
Happy Frog (7) I see you got your silver tongue from your friend BethS. For those that are unfamiliar with BethS, she is also a writer on C2NN under Society and Culture. BethS thinks that the Arabs have taken over Care2 and they are restricting her time in the "little yellow box" on the front page - which has made her a hate spruiker against the Arabs.
Happy Frog (7) I think the Nazi culture has rubbed off on you more so than me. My wonderful Jewish friends would normally get such a laugh out of this, but these are perilous times for their families and friends that still reside in Israel. You see they immigrated here (Australia) to get away from the all this bloodshed just as my parents did. Spruik your hate
 

MmAway M. (488)
Saturday November 17, 2012, 11:14 pm
Dearest Carole...always love it when you post news, makes me think...Does take my mind off personal issues and puts it into perspective on what others deal with, then I truly feel so small in what I think I am going through. Hugs and Thank you!
 

Aaron Holmgren (3)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 12:47 am
Read Noam Chomsky to get a better understanding of this conflict.
 

Arild Warud (174)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 2:02 am
Thanks for posting this article "C",the international press is mostly hung up on the longer-range rockets Hamas has been using in selfdefense.Shame on Israel and those who support them,stop terrorising the Palestinians.
 

Gillian M. (218)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 5:06 am
The Qur'an has a wide range of imagery and insults for those who refuse to believe in Islam. They are likened to cattle (camels, cows, sheep), a goat-herd, dogs, asses, etc. (cf. Surah 25:44, 2:171, 7:175-177, 62:5), but in some passages it is much worse than that:


According to the Koran, a non-Muslim is less than nothing: "To Allah, there are no animals viler than those who do not believe and remain unbelievers" (Sura 8:55). That is why it is necessary to Islamize them by force and by humiliation. And those who resist Islam and its founder must be chastised, according to the Koran: "Here is the fate of those who fight Allah and his messenger: you will put them to death or you will make them suffer the torture of the cross; you will cut their hands and their feet alternately. They will be driven from the country" (Sura 5:33). And, since the Muslims are realists, they take into account circumstances and make, accordingly, temporary peace or war: "Do not display cowardice, and do not call the infidels to peace when you are superior to them" (Sura 47:35).
In a word, as the Koran is the word of Allah for all Muslims, it holds for all times and all peoples until the end of the world. It must be applied according to the indications that Allah himself gives to his believers. This logically explains what is today happening in the Sudan, in Algeria, and in numerous Islamic countries. To idealize Islam is the greatest wrong that one can do to the Muslims themselves.

(Source: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/reals.htm)

The statement that "Unbelievers are worse than the viles beasts" is topped yet again by another verse:


Those who reject (Truth) among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will abide in hell-fire, they are the worst of creatures. (Sura 98:6)
The worst of anything God ever created, whether it be the unclean pigs, or bacteria, cancer cells or the AIDS virus. Unbelievers, even those among the People of the Book, are worse than that.

The Qur'an breeds contempt for anyone who is not a Muslim. If statements like this would be printed anywhere outside of the Qur'an, the authors would be dragged before the courts for hate-speech.

The consequence of such statements quickly is: If such people are not really human beings, but are on a level of wild and vile beasts, then you do not need to treat them as human beings. Psychologically it is the same dynamic as used by Nazi Germany in regard to the Jews. First calling them sub-human (to remove the barrier that is naturally in every person's conscience against killing another human being), and then seeking to eradicate them.

In fact, Islam has the clear rule that a Muslim is not to be killed for murder of a non-Muslim:


Narrated Abu Juhaifa:

I asked 'Ali "Do you have anything Divine literature besides what is in the Qur'an?" Or, as Uyaina once said, "Apart from what the people have?" 'Ali said, "By Him Who made the grain split (germinate) and created the soul, we have nothing except what is in the Quran and the ability (gift) of understanding Allah's Book which He may endow a man, with and what is written in this sheet of paper." I asked, "What is on this paper?" He replied, "The legal regulations of Diya (Blood-money) and the (ransom for) releasing of the captives, and the judgment that no Muslim should be killed in Qisas (equality in punishment) for killing a Kafir (disbeliever)." (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 83, Number 50; cf. Volume 1, Book 3, Number 111; Volume 4, Book 52, Number 283)

Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:

Qays ibn Abbad and Ashtar went to Ali and said to him: Did the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) give you any instruction about anything for which he did not give any instruction to the people in general?

He said: No, except what is contained in this document of mine. Musaddad said: He then took out a document. Ahmad said: A document from the sheath of his sword.

It contained: The lives of all Muslims are equal; they are one hand against others; the lowliest of them can guarantee their protection. Beware, a Muslim must not be killed for an infidel, nor must one who has been given a covenant be killed while his covenant holds. If anyone introduces an innovation, he will be responsible for it. If anyone introduces an innovation or gives shelter to a man who introduces an innovation (in religion), he is cursed by Allah, by His angels, and by all the people. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 39, Number 4515)

Narrated Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A believer will not be killed for an infidel. If anyone kills a man deliberately, he is to be handed over to the relatives of the one who has been killed. If they wish, they may kill, but if they wish, they may accept blood-wit. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 39, Number 4491)

 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 5:21 am

If you read the article, Gillian, you will see that, in an effort to bring certain events to light, Rabbi Waskow presented news from several sources (and, in fact, his comments are not the majority of the article:

From Rabbi Waskow:

"In this report to readers and members of The Shalom Center, I will be filling in that back story with reports from the Israeli and Palestinian press. Then I will include a brief and trenchant comment by Uri Avnery, veteran Israeli peace activist and former member of Knesset who has been committed to a two-state peace settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for four decades. And finally, I will be including a brief letter of my own, written to American officials of the Jewish National Fund. The JNF had written American Jews (including me) with an appeal to carry out certain Jewish values, which in their reading required strong support of the Israeli strikes against Gaza. I wrote to explore what the full meaning of those Jewish values might be."

 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 5:34 am

After having read several of your endless diatribes -- all of which propagate hatred against Muslims, portray only the vilest behavior of those practicing Sharia law, and single out selective passages (usually out of context) from the Qur'an . . .

And, coupled with this blatant hatred, you and others also believe that there is no way to negotiate with these murderous Muslims . . .

If that is all true, I shudder to think of what you would suggest be done to resolve this conflict.

And please try to remember that we are on Care2, which has a written code of conduct which we all agreed to follow. As such, your personal attacks are a violation.

I, and I'm sure many other readers here, would appreciate it if you would address your remarks to the subject of this post.

Thank you, Gillian.

 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 5:55 am

And, if you are going to post lengthy articles from publications (like the above, from Islam Watch), it is common courtesy to put that part of the comment in quotes, and give credit to the original writer, Gillian.

Otherwise, it is plagiarism.

 

JL A. (282)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 6:08 am
"Thank you Carole for striving to provide a forum for factual exploration of this "contentious issue." In my lifetime, some issues trigger passionate and emotional response from one side or at points in time; this is one where I cannot recall a point in time without such emotion and passion from all sides.

I give the Rabbi kudos for honing in on one area I suspect most all could agree on: this is a 'life and death' issue. He then seeks clarity for definitions of the two relevant terms (life, death).....
don't know, I can only hope it might."
According to http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Plagiarism:
"The act of appropriating the literary composition of another author, or excerpts, ideas, or passages therefrom, and passing the material off as one's own creation.

Plagiarism is theft of another person's writings or ideas. Generally, it occurs when someone steals expressions from another author's composition and makes them appear to be his own work. Plagiarism is not a legal term; however, it is often used in lawsuits. Courts recognize acts of plagiarism as violations of Copyright law, specifically as the theft of another person's Intellectual Property. Because copyright law allows a variety of creative works to be registered as the property of their owners, lawsuits alleging plagiarism can be based on the appropriation of any form of writing, music, and visual images."
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 6:16 am

This article was presented in an effort to illuminate the call for peaceful resolution, something that will be necessary in order for all sides to survive.

These continuous hateful responses (most of which consist of copy/pasting someone else's opinion), concentrating on placing blame, attacking another religion, as well as individual commenters, are off-topic.

Are you unaware that Care2 also has Muslim members?

I will not contribute to your attempts to sidetrack the intention of this submission by replying to your off-topic baiting.

 

Alexander Werner (53)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 6:44 am
Carole, saying that "This article was presented in an effort to illuminate the call for peaceful resolution, something that will be necessary in order for all sides to survive. " is a joke, right?

You quoted some unknown moron, who obviously either has no clues on what is going on, or lies through the teeth. The only reason you posted his nonsense is to stir up passions against Israel, defending itself against Islamist terrorists.

Now, claiming that siding with Israel in its war against Islamists terrorists will result in offending Muslim members of Care2 is a racist statement, lumping together the Moderate Care2 Muslim Members and the worst religious Hamas terrorists together, just because they share the name of their religion!

You better apologize to them for that statement. I hope you didn't mean what you said. Muslims are one thing, and Islamist terrorists another, please do not insult all Muslims because of some bad apples.
 

Alexa R. (319)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 6:59 am
Bob Algeron (44)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 6:44 am

I hope you didn't mean what you said. Muslims are one thing, and Islamist terrorists another, please do not insult all Muslims because of some bad apples.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So do I ...
 

Gillian M. (218)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 7:05 am
Carole, I did read the article and it is still based on opinion. I have also clearly shown that Muslims do not want peace with Israel or Jews. Arafat and Abbas have been given this opportunity on several occasions. Why have they not done so? Why is Morsi in Gaza, even now, offering help & support. Arms paid for with US money is being offered. How gullible do you have to be?

The terrorists are laughing at you because you believe their propaganda and then turn their attention to you and yours. Read what I have put.

just for carole this is from a website about the Hamas Charter. This is why I know that, whatever your rabbi might say (he is not mine and is not one that I would ever want to know) that he is wrong. Now, can you find anything in this extract from the charter, or the whole one, that would give anyone hope for peace? Is there anything in the quotes from their religious texts bearing in mind that the early texts do not count, the later ones of hatred are the ones that are to be used, Mohammed said so.

From the Hamas Charter:
THE COVENANT OF THE HAMAS - MAIN POINTS

=======================================

The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement was issued on August 18, 1988. The Islamic Resistance Movement, also known as the HAMAS,

is an extremist fundamentalist Islamic organization operating in the territories under Israeli control. Its Covenant is a comprehensive manifesto comprised of 36 separate articles, all of which promote the basic HAMAS goal of destroying the State of Israel through Jihad (Islamic Holy War). The following are excerpts of the HAMAS

Covenant:

Goals of the HAMAS:

'The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine.' (Article 6)

On the Destruction of Israel:

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)

The Exclusive Moslem Nature of the Area:

'The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession] consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it.' (Article 11)

'Palestine is an Islamic land. Since this is the case, the Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem wherever he may be.' (Article 13)

The Call to Jihad:

'The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.' (Article 15)

'Ranks will close, fighters joining other fighters, and masses everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the call of duty, loudly proclaiming: 'Hail to Jihad!'. This cry will reach the heavens and will go on being resounded until liberation is achieved, the invaders vanquished and Allah's victory comes about.' (Article 33)

Rejection of a Negotiated Peace Settlement:

'[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)

Condemnation of the Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty:

'Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of struggle [against Zionism] through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. The Zionists are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements in order to bring them outside the circle of struggle.

...Leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism is high treason,

and cursed be he who perpetrates such an act.' (Article 32)

Anti-Semitic Incitement:

'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.' (Article 7)

'The enemies have been scheming for a long time ... and have accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money, they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secret organizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions - which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests... They stood behind World War I ... and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them having their finger in it.' (Article 22)

'Zionism scheming has no end, and after Palestine, they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates River. When they have finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion. Their scheme has been laid out in the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'.' (Article 32)

'The HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped
for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews.' (Article 32)

 

JL A. (282)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 8:24 am
Experts in conflict resolution agree that conflicts with more than two parties are usually contentious and more difficult to resolve. Historians seem to agree that war as a conflict resolution mode is proves to be a temporary solution since only the victors believe anything was resolved and not even the victor succeeded in reaping all they would have wanted in resolving the conflict. No mediated agreement gives all parties everything they would have preferred to get.
Carole, thank you for trying to provide a forum to explore viable solutions, options, etc. to this contentious conflict other than war (i.e., the least effective method of conflict resolution according to the experts).
It seems that there are some still wedded to war as preferred method for conflict resolution unwilling to explore alternatives who are posting here that are not hearing anything outside the traditional positions of warring parties.
 

Alexa R. (319)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 9:44 am
J.A L it is all good sounding words you've posted, and what Israel has repeatedly tried to negotiate over all these years (read Gillian's comments outlining the many years and hard work Israel has put into negotiating peace -all the compromises/sacrifices Israel has already done in the hope for peace in return).

However, your sweet smelling words offers not even a first level attempt at making suggestions on how to negotiate peace when leaders Hamas et al is not interested in peace (even though peace is what the ordinary Palestinians in the streets want).

As the Hamas chapter clearly spells out, the one and only thing Hamas lives for is the complete destruction of Israel, every single Jew dead. Read article 33, 13

How do you suggest negotiating peace with a murderer?

~~~

My feeble experience has taught me to keep praying for Israel's enemies in the hope they come to their senses and cease murdering, give them enough rope,(do all necessary to protect yourself and your loved ones in an extremely vigilant way while praying with all my heart for protection) and eventually you've either won them over or they have had enough rope to hang themselves or fall in their own trap. (even if you're not religious, if you read the story of Haman and Esther -it is a perfect example of this type of conflict resolution imho).

This is exactly what Israel has been doing and continue to do. Israel is more than capable to wipe Hamas off the face of this earth if she had any such intention at all.

In the meantime, until Hamas et al either hangs itself with all the rope they gathered or cease the rockets raining down on Israeli civilians, Israel has no ethical choice other than fulfilling her obligation to protect her citizens.

~~~

By all means, as i repeatedly asked several posters on this thread, if any of you have better and more expert conflict resolution suggestions for this situation than my feeble suggestion, I'm all ears.


 

Gillian M. (218)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 1:49 pm
JLA Israel has always been willing to go to the table and, in fact, offered Arafat some 95% of his requests at Camp David. Now, if both side want peace, why did Arafat not accept the offer, an incredibly generous one? Because he did not want peace nor does Abbas. He says one thing in English so that morons believe him and, a couple of days later, he uses war rhetoric.

As for Hamas, it is an illegal and unrecognised terrorist organisation and cannot be represented.

I would also add that the approx 1 million Jewish refugees, which are on the negotiating table, are ignored by the Muslim groups.

Abbas asked for settlements to stop being built, so they were for 10 months and he STILL refused to come to the table. Now, how keen is he for peace? How keen is Hamas for peace?

Willful blindness and sheer bigotry is all I hear. Israel has done all it can for years but, when one side does not want peace, only to kill and destroy, how is that going to happen? You have failed to read anything I posted including comments from Islam's holy books (& there are far more than those) or from Hamas's charter. I repeat my challenge to Carole, and I will add you to it, "Now, can you find anything in this extract from the charter, or the whole one, that would give anyone hope for peace? Is there anything in the quotes from their religious texts bearing in mind that the early texts do not count, the later ones of hatred are the ones that are to be used, Mohammed said so."

Put up or shut up is the term that my children use.

 

Ros G. (73)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 2:00 pm
Many thanks Carole for at least trying to suppress the hate - but people are people - give it a name and they will start arguing the for and against. The real way to peace is not through the Politicians but through the people - start with the children they are innocent and see the world through different eyes, then the mothers and grandparents because they want to die knowing their children are safe. Give the men a chance to put down their guns..take off those uniforms - mix, mingle and share - find the common ground - not the uncommon ground.. after all we are of the same race - the Human Race - it should be the Humane Race PEACE BEGINS WITH ME AND YOU. Could all please take the time to sign the petition on another lot of displaced people - the Aboriginal of Australia who have been fighting for 200 hundred years to be recognised in their own Cournty. Peace to All
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 2:08 pm

Well said, Ros.

I feel fortunate that this article has drawn so many people who are willing to see beyond the hate and the necessity for peace.

Thank you.

You, and many others, reassure me that the quest for peaceful co-existence is the only real solution. While there will always be negative people, who can only predict a negative result; I am strengthened by those who wish for the positive and work for it.

 

JL A. (282)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 3:06 pm
Thank you Carole. I believe the Torah speaks of turning swords into plowshares.
I had hoped the rules for actual peacemaking, mediation or other agreement processes might influence comments to conform to those rules thereafter--which would indicate that the writers truly want an equitable solution.
I agree that Ros wrote well about what many would find to be the most essential issue--and one that is "life or death." "War is not healthy for children and other living things."
 

Caitlin M. (104)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 3:15 pm
I have no interest in which side is "right" and which side is "wrong." It is probable that both sides of this long-standing conflict have much to complain about and to be indignant about for whatever reasons they may have. There doesn't seem to be enough will to work toward peace instead of working toward "winning." Haven't we in America had enough of that kind of thinking from two opposing bodies? Haven't the Israelis and the Palestinians had enough of that to satisfy their egos yet? Come on!... if the Irish "Troubles" can finally come to rest (which it did with the help of George Mitchell, the former Senator from Maine), why can't these people find a solution so that all of them can co-exist in peace. Sen. Mitchell tried there, too, but failed to bring these sides together. What will it take... pure annihilation? It is very, very sad indeed when humans forsake their brains for a bayonette! Stupid, IMO! Thanks, Carole.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 3:24 pm

Bless your heart, Caitlin! Now, THAT'S what I'm talkin' about!

(ENORMOUS, loving grin and hug for you.)

 

Ros G. (73)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 3:33 pm
Thank You for your kind and encouraging words Carole ... I do at times wonder why I bother to put myself out there.. the hate and prejudice is just amazing. I was raised not to hate people that are different to me..we can all learn from each other. No one person, race or religion has all the answers - the world is not black and white - it's full of colour. We should stop for moment everyday and be thankful for that diversity. "Reach out and touch somebody's hand - make this world a better place if you can" I'm grateful that Care2 gives me that opportunity because I know I'm not alone - there are so many good hearts out there. There is no reason why people can't put aside their differences - and do want we were meant to do Live Peacefully on this One Home we have. Work towards the betterment of mankind and this planet - dismantle the War Machine worldwide and put that money back into rebuilding what has been destroyed. Fix the Hearts of the People and you fix the Heart of the World Peace and Happiness to you all
 

Gillian M. (218)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 3:59 pm
As I said Carole, you refuse to acknowledge the truth and insult us that do. Try this for truth from an English journalist, nah, you won't.

Here is some information about the war between Gaza and Israel that for some unaccountable reason you may have missed today in Britain's mainstream media.

• The casualty rate in Gaza from Israeli strikes is astoundingly low
Since the beginning of Israel's operation Pillar of Defence last Wednesday against Hamas rocket attacks, there have been more than 1000 Israeli air strikes. At time of writing, the Palestinian death toll is 69. That is a staggeringly small number of fatalities for more than 1000 bombing raids.

It shows beyond doubt that the Israelis are not only doing everything they can to avoid civilian casualties, but have achieved a degree of precision in doing so which no other army can match. For sure, every civilian casualty is regrettable, and the deaths of children are always tragic -- today's apparently heavy toll particularly so, including at what appears to have been a mistaken target. Such mistakes inevitably happen in war.

But consider this: the very low casualty rate among Israelis from the thousands of rockets that have rained down on them from Gaza is largely due to the fact that Israel has provided its citizens with shelters to save their lives. In Gaza, by horrific contrast, the Hamas leadership has deliberately exposed its citizens to attack by siting its rocket arsenals among them in order to maximise the number of civilian men, women and children who will be killed.
• A number of Gazan civilians may have been killed by their own rockets
Israel says that no fewer than 60 of the 703 rockets that Hamas fired at Israel between last Wednesday and Saturday fell inside Gaza on Palestinian civilians. The question therefore is how many of the 69 dead Palestinians were killed by their own rockets?
• Here's one: Hamas lies that a child killed by its own rocket was killed by Israel
Last Friday, a number of papers along with outlets such as CNN in the US published prominent footage of the Egyptian Prime Minister Hisham Kanil weeping over the body cradled in his arms of a dead child, Mahmoud Sadallah, who Hamas claimed had been killed in an Israeli air strike. Blogger Elder of Zyon smelled a rat and, piecing together convincing circumstantial evidence, had concluded by this morning that the child was almost certainly not killed by an Israeli strike - not least because on Friday morning when the child died the Israelis had paused their bombing missions to allow for cease-fire talks in Gaza to proceed -- but by a Hamas missile that was fired at Israel but had fallen short in Gaza. Now experts from the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights who visited the site on Saturday have said they believe that the explosion that killed Mahmoud Sadallah was indeed caused by a Palestinian rocket.
Just how prominent do you reckon the apologies on CNN and in the British media for this sloppy and incompetent reporting/malicious war libel of Israel will be?
• Hamas admits to using human shields
In 2008 , Gaza MP Fathi Muhammad boasted that Hamas used Gaza's civilian population as human shields. He screamed:

'For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy, "We desire death like you desire life".'

Remember this next time you hear or read of claims by Palestinians or their useful western media idiots of 'massacres' of civilians in Gaza.
• Hamas is now using journalists as human shields
Hamas is preventing at least 22 foreign journalists from leaving Gaza for Israel. According to Israel's Foreign Ministry, among those being detained are nine Italian citizens, one Canadian, one South Korean, a French national and six journalists from Japan. In addition, two Turkish Red Crescent members have been refused exit.
• Hamas tells lies as a matter of routine
Hamas has claimed, inter alia, that Israel's Ben Gurion airport has been closed (false), that it had succeeded in shooting down an Israeli F16 plane (false), that it had hit Tel Aviv and had cut off electricity there (false). When will the western media stop assuming that they can believe any claim that Hamas ever makes?
• Hamas is now threatening human bomb attacks
Hamas is now threatening to use human bombs against both Israeli civilians in buses and cafes, and against Israeli soldiers in any ground offensive in Gaza. This is what almost certainly faces the Israel Defence Forces if they go in, because as Fathi Muhammad said (above), the Palestinians are a death cult; they are committed to death and to killing, while the Israelis are committed to life and to saving life.
• Israel is feeding the hand that bites it
Unprecedentedly for a country at war, Israel continues to supply food, gas and medical supplies to its enemies in Gaza for humanitarian reasons. Would any other country in the world keep the supply route open to people who are firing thousands of rockets to murder its people and are threatening to turn themselves into human bombs to kill its soldiers and civilians, so that they can continue to do so?
• And now for some news from civilised Britain
On BBC Radio's Any Questions on Friday evening, audience questioner Stephen Bedford asked:

'Despite all the foreign aid and support, Israel has spectacularly failed to get on with its neighbours. Does Israel deserve a future?'

So with Israel having faced existential attack from the Arab and Muslim world for the six decades of its existence, and having been under intensive rocket, missile and human bomb attack from them for more than a decade, the BBC Any Questions production team selected as the audience question to launch its discussion of the Gaza war whether Israel actually deserved to exist at all.

Vile.


 

Alexa R. (319)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 4:54 pm
J.A. L the Palestinian authorities have split in 2, PA (West Bank) and Hamas(Gaza).

And once all is gathered once more at the table, how do you suggest us Israelis respond to these threats? I doubt you would you like for us to ignore them and wait to get killed?

Hamas to Israelis:
"We've missed the suicide attacks
Expect us soon at bus stations and in cafés"
http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=7996

by Itamar Marcus and Nan Jacques Zilberdik

In response to Israel's Operation Pillar of Defense that aims to cripple the terrorist infrastructure in Gaza and protect Israeli civilians, Hamas' military wing, the Al-Qassam Brigades, has produced videos addressing Israelis.
"From the Palestinian people to the Zionists: We've missed the suicide attacks. Expect us soon at bus stations and in cafés."
[Al-Aqsa TV (Fatah), Nov. 18, 2012]

"From the Al-Qassam Brigades to the Zionists: Don't go to sleep, because we may get you in your sleep."
[Al-Aqsa TV (Fatah), Nov. 18, 2012]

The videos, which include footage of fighting Al-Qassam Brigades members, missiles being fired, and pictures of injured soldiers, also address Israeli soldiers:
"From the Al-Qassam Brigades to the Zionist soldiers: On the edge of Gaza, [your] grave is waiting for you."

"Zionist soldiers: Come forward, brave one, so that you can be killed."
 

Alexa R. (319)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 4:56 pm
Just Carole (594)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 3:52 pm

It only confirms my conviction that this world will be conquered by those with love in their hearts . . .

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Finally .. something you and I agree on 100% ...

 

Alexa R. (319)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 4:59 pm
Oops .. it should read

J.L. A ... apologies ..
 

Rose Becke (140)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 5:16 pm
A great post Carol it gives us great insight so thank you
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 5:20 pm

[Because my last comment keeps "disappearing," I am saving a print screen of it.]
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 5:25 pm

And, AGAIN, it is gone.

(I'm glad I saved proof that it was posted.)

Now, let's talk about censorship.

See this article:

We are forbidden to say this Gaza is a Concentration Camp


 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 5:38 pm
 
[Just in case the comment(s) were deleted by too many hotlinks, I'm trying it again -- with fewer.]
 
So, now, the formerly tormented become the oppressors:
 
We are forbidden to say this Gaza is a Concentration Camp
 
"THE MOST STRIKING and significant quality of our national conversation "is one of overwhelming, oppressive and suffocating unreality.
 
It is as if everyone knows, but will never acknowledge, that we may speak only in code, and that we may only utilize the safe, empty phrases that we have agreed are 'acceptable' -- phrases and language that are safe precisely because they have been drained of all correspondence to facts.
 
It is as if everyone realizes, but will never state, that we are engaged in an elaborate charade, a pageant of gesture and indication, where substance and specific meaning have been banned. ... [T]he truth is not merely unpleasant, an uninvited guest who makes conversation difficult and awkward. Truth is the enemy; truth is to be destroyed.
 
Gaza is a concentration camp. It is not like a concentration camp. It is not a metaphorical or figurative concentration camp. It is a concentration camp. Our culture, our political leaders, and the cacophony of voices in the media have all agreed that this truth must never be spoken.
 
[Unlike others who wish to monopolize this thread, I will not re-post the entire article here.  Please visit the article to read it in its entirety.]
 

 

Kit B. (276)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 5:43 pm

Oh for goodness sake, now Care2 is for posting books? Learn to read and synthesize your comments. No one will read this nonsense.

I'm so sorry Carole that your comments section for a truly excellent and factual article has be turned into a publication house for hate rhetoric.

When I could send green stars,I did because a some here deserved them, others need to learn how to debate and allow room for discussion.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 5:47 pm

If the above comment remains, I apologize for my accusations that it was deleted due to censorship.

(But, you'd have to admit that it was strange that I posted it 4 times and it disappeared almost immediately. It was even more suspicious because it was pointing readers to an article specifically about having freedom of speech oppressed.)

 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 5:50 pm

I understand and agree, Miss Kitty.

(And they wonder why I refuse to respond to them?)

 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 6:12 pm

"Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their customs, privileges or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking; where it is absent, discussion is apt to become worse than useless."
~ Leo Nikolaevich Tolstoi ~
 

Kit B. (276)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 6:14 pm

There is nothing that needs or deserves a response. Some make the choice to view the world through a lens of hate and bigotry. I feel sad for all that they miss in this world, but I also feel those comments are completely inappropriate. Again, I thank you for sharing this article.
 

JL A. (282)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 6:19 pm
Alexandra--thank you for confirming for me the divided nature of the Palestinians.

The Camp David Accord was done far from the war zones on neutral ground...I suspect without weapons, too. Those two factors might be ones to choose again.

The selected representatives are entrusted with crafting agreements and can be incommunicado with the outside world for the duration. The process usually has the agreements being voted on by the parties as is on a yes or no vote to the entirety.

Not all parties necessarily have the same number of representatives--those numbers are usually negotiated at the beginning as a part of the agreed upon process. Sometimes a maximum time limit for the process is chosen (e.g., certain number of hours or days before stopping if no progress).

Often three representatives is the minimum for any of the parties should a way to move forward to agreement be found, then drafting sections can be delegated to smaller task groups with representatives of each party to the intended agreement.

Sometimes whoever is facilitating or mediating will ask for confidential input from each representative of what they want (not expected to be shared with each other or anyone else). Often input will include things like permanent resolution, conciliation, end of violence, etc. that all at the table may hope for (areas of agreement).

The synergy of working toward a common goal in an environment of mutual respect does lead to creative ideas that lead to solutions--possibly more often than in stilted formal negotiations functioning with an adversarial dynamic.

Does that help flesh out the vision enough for the moment Alexandra?
 

Angelika R. (143)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 6:20 pm
I wish people would come to sense, instead of endless debates about both parties at war and which side is being more cautious about civilian casualties etc why not speak out the only truth to a solution: Israel must FINALLY comply with all international law and the endless number of UN resolutions and END THE OCCUPATION and STOP the settlements. Period.
They will never see a day of lasting peace as long as they follow the idea of building a Greater Israel and suppress other people for that goal.
 

Jelica R. (144)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 7:41 pm
This is how biased care2 is - from e-mail: "The C2NN Dailiy - News You Choose":

Noted: 38 CNN USES PALLYWOOD FOOTAGE OF FAKED INJURED ARAB IN GAZA
posted by: Beth S 1 hour ago; 16 comments

Noted: 35 Will Israel Send Ground Forces Into Gaza?
posted by: Bob A 1 hour ago; 16 comments

Noted: 44 Letter To Obama ACTION
posted by: Nancy C 5 hours ago; 13 comments

more world news >>
______________________________

To put this in perspective, this submission was noted by 52 members and has 113 comments, AND still is not listed under "Most Active Today in World" 3 posts on top of this page (which combined have 74 comments) and one of them was less noted than this. Wanna complain about this, too.
 

Jelica R. (144)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 8:04 pm
May I remind you that Hamas won the 2006 elections, which were reported to be honest and fair (Sunday late night, on the day of the elections) by all international supervisor groups. The very next day, monday, out-of-a-blue-sky USA statement that elections were false brought a world into questioning US sanity. US backed Fatah refused to accept the electorate outcome; clashed with Hamas, lost again and was expelled from Gaza. Thus, a party which represent Palestinians is Hamas, Fatah has lost it's mandate in 2006 elections.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 8:08 pm

Yeah, that's all true, Jellica. (And I appreciaite your pointing out fact.)

Yet, and still, I do NOT post submissions based on what I believe to be popular (or incendiary) . . . I calls 'em like I sees 'em.

To HELL with commendations and meaningless recognition.


 

Ros G. (73)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 8:14 pm
Diabetes is kills many thousands of people around the world each day. The Doctors say that this disease is caused because they do not have any sweetness in their lives. Hence, they fill themselves with things full of suger to maintain some sweetness. Beth S and her co-horts are already causualities of this war and they could easily succumb to this as well.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 8:15 pm

EEK!

Sorry about misspelling your name, Jelica!

You are a MOST appreciated defender of justice (and personal friend).

 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 8:20 pm

For those who conveniently divide "social site friends' from "true life friends," I will say this:

Although I am, in reality, an extremely private person, Jelica maintained a candle, in honor of my sister's death on 10/6, along side me, until I realized that I needed to stop.

[No, Jelica, I will NEVER forget that.

 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 8:24 pm


My point for the above expressions of gratitude is that ALL life (when taken before what we perceive is the "right time," is precious.

And each life, on either side of the Gaza imaginary border, that was lost is a true tragedy . . . and each was left with mourners.

 

Alexa R. (319)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 8:26 pm
J.L A, since you seem to have taken on the role of Hamas representative and I that of Israel, can we agree the following to points? As you can perhaps appreciate, I can see little point in any negotiations if we cannot adhere to the following two points:

1. honesty (if something is put on the table that is unsubstantiated lies without any backup or evidence, then it best be pushed off the table, instead of wasting our time) agreed?

2. fairness (the same standard you apply to me. the same expectations - would automatically be expected of you in return and vice versa) agreed?

If agreed, then the first brazen unsubstantiated whooper that needs to go from our table is:

Angelikanomail Roll (75)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 6:20 pm

: Israel must FINALLY comply with all international law and the endless number of UN resolutions and END THE OCCUPATION and STOP the settlements. Period.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Israel is a sovereignty, fully legal country and does not, neither has, ever broken international law. Israel does not occupy Gaza - there are no Jews living there, they've all been evacuated a long time ago, they have their own government in Gaza called Hamas.

Even a very basic understanding of international law makes it crystal clear that Israel is in the clear under international law.

Here goes the evidence:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Summary: It is almost universally believed that Israeli settlements in the West Bank are illegal under international law. This claim is made automatically by politicians, journalists, non-governmental organisations, and, of course, by the Palestinians and the entire Arab world. The claim is built on four arguments:-
1. that Israel illegally occupies the West Bank;
2. that that land was sovereign Palestinian land at the time Israel took over;
3. that Jews have no legal right to settle on that occupied Palestinian land;
4. and that Israeli settlements violate the Geneva Convention of 1949.
This Briefing provides responses to these arguments, showing:
1. that Israel’s entry into the West Bank in 1967 was lawful;
2. that that territory was not sovereign Palestinian territory at that time;
3. that Jews have a legal right to settle in the West Bank, and that it is a political, diplomatic and ethical question whether they do so or not; and
4. that settlement activity is not a violation of the Geneva Convention.
Why it is such a significant diplomatic issue: The claim that “all Israeli settlements are illegal” is misconceived. But because it is so widely believed, the Palestinians and the Arab world have no incentive to achieve territorial compromise. They argue that international law demands the uprooting of all Israeli settlements, and that they should not have to be flexible on this matter. The claim that “all settlements are illegal” is thus fatal to a negotiated two-state solution involving land swaps, and far-reaching territorial compromise.
“We regard all settlements in the occupied territories as illegal under international law….”
• Bill Rammell, British Minister of State in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, in the UK parliament on 11 November 2008.

The statement is made routinely by Western politicians, journalists, expert commentators, NGOs, as well as by all the Palestinians and across the entire Arab world. But is it correct?
We outline four main arguments upon which the claim is built, and provide counter-arguments.
Argument 1: ‘The West Bank is land illegally occupied by Israel…..’
It is routinely assumed that Israel’s presence on the West Bank is an “illegal occupation”. This is in fact not the case.
• Summary: Israel’s presence in the West Bank today is not illegal under international law. Israel entered the West Bank lawfully in June 1967 in the exercise of its right of self-defence against Jordanian attack. The occupation in and of itself is not unlawful.
• In November 1947, the United Nations had voted to divide mandatory Palestine (then administered by Britain) into a sovereign Jewish state and a sovereign Arab state – a two-state solution. The Jewish leadership accepted this plan. The Arab leadership did not.
• In 1948-49, Israel fought its war of independence against the Arab residents of Mandatory Palestine, and five neighbouring states. In 1950, Jordan illegally annexed the West Bank, of which it had taken control in the course of the war.
• In June 1967, Jordan launched a massive bombardment of civilian Israeli targets from the West Bank on the first day of the Six Day War (see Beyond Images Briefing 103), and despite appeals from Israel to Jordan to stay out of the war which had started with Egypt.
• As a sovereign state, and member of the UN, Israel has a right of self-defence under the UN Charter against attack by another sovereign state.
• Exercising that right, Israeli armed forces entered the West Bank to defend itself against the Jordanian assault. That is how the current ‘occupation’ began.
• Israel is obliged under international law to withdraw from territories (not all territories) occupied in 1967 in accordance with UN Security Council Resolution 242, in the context of a negotiated peace agreement with its neighbours which recognises Israel’s legitimate security needs, and the need for defensible borders.
• Within weeks of the 1967 war, Israel had already proposed to withdraw from most of the West Bank – but this and many other steps were rebuffed by the Arab states.
• Israel’s subsequent Camp David Peace Accords with Egypt in 1978, and its total withdrawal from the Sinai peninsula in 1982, marked a partial fulfilment of UN Resolution 242.
• Resolution 242, which is the centrepiece of relevant international law on this topic, does not require Israeli withdrawal from all West Bank territory.
• Thus, Israel’s entry into the West Bank was lawful. And its continued presence there is lawful too. It is for all the parties to the conflict to reach a negotiated peace agreement under which Israel would withdraw.
Argument 2: ‘The land was sovereign Palestinian land when Israel took over…’
• The West Bank territory which Israel entered in 1967 was not sovereign Palestinian territory.
• It formed part of Mandatory Palestine until 1948. The Arabs rejected the partition plan approved by the UN which would have assured the permanent status of the West Bank as Palestinian sovereign territory.
• No independent Palestinian Arab state was created in the West Bank between 1950 and 1967 either, when Jordan controlled that territory. At the same time, Jews were completely barred by Jordan from the West Bank, from East Jerusalem and from the old City of Jerusalem (the holiest site in the Jewish world).
• In 2009, over 60 years after the UN partition plan, the final legal status of the West Bank – its sovereignty and the permanent, internationally recognised borders of Israel and a future state of Palestine – has not been resolved. Israel has legitimate claims in relation to the territory too (see section (iii) below)
• For these reasons, the West Bank is properly regarded as “disputed territory” rather than “occupied Palestinian land”, which it is always called, and which implies some prior Palestinian sovereignty which in fact has never existed.
Argument 3: ‘The Jewish people have no right to settle in the West Bank…’
Even if the territories were lawfully entered by Israel in 1967, and even if the land was not Palestinian sovereign land at the time, why should Israel be entitled to build settlements there now?

• The Jewish people have had an unbroken connection with the Land of Israel stretching back for over 3000 years (see Beyond Images Briefing 1 - Israel and the Jewish people: the 3500 year connection). That connection is part of Jewish values, heritage and history.
• The West Bank is not alien territory for the Jewish people, but the very heart of the territorial connection. Even secular Israelis on the left of centre of Israeli politics acknowledge this connection.
• This does not mean that Israelis wish to retain the entire West Bank, or that it would be right or justified to do so. There is now a consensus in Israel that this cannot and should not happen. But this is because of politics, diplomacy, ethics and pragmatism. It is not because Jewish settlement in the West Bank is illegal per se.
• The international community formally recognised the legality of Jewish settlement activity in the area now called the West Bank as far back as 1920.
• During the decades before Israel’s independence in 1948, thousands of returning Jews had been building up an embryonic state in British-administered mandatory Palestine.
• In 1920, the League of Nations (the predecessor to the United Nations) defined the terms of the British Mandate over Palestine. Article 6 of the Mandate states:-
“The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in cooperation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land [Beyond Images emphasis], including state lands not required for public use….”
• The territory to which this refers includes the area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea ie including the modern ‘West Bank’.
• During the period 1920-1948 (ie before Israel was re-established), Jews settled in locations like Neve Ya’acov, the Etzion Bloc and other areas in the West Bank. Meanwhile, Jews had had a virtually uninterrupted presence in the West Bank town of Hebron for well nearly 2000 years. Hebron and other West Bank towns play a significant role in the Jewish national heritage. Jews moving to live in these places were not carrying out “illegal settlement”. They returned there lawfully, and their presence was considered legitimate by the Mandatory powers and the international community.
• The presence of Jews in these locations was often ended by massacres carried out by Arabs (for example the Hebron massacre of 1929, and the Etzion Bloc massacre of 1948).
• But neither massacre, nor the Jordanian policy of refusing all Jews entry between 1950 and 1967, can extinguish the right of Jews to settle there, and their connection.
• Some Israeli settlements on the West Bank are considered ‘illegal’ by the Israelis themselves, namely the so-called ‘illegal outposts’ which are usually just portacabins or tents. But that is because those Jews establishing them – usually as an act of defiance following a Palestinian terrorist attack against Israeli civilians – have flouted Israeli administrative law relating to the territories in the way they have built them. It is not because the presence of Jews in the territories is illegal under international law.
• Furthermore, Israel is obliged under the diplomatic accord reached in 2003, and known as the Road Map for Peace, to freeze settlement activity. But that is an agreement with the Palestinian Authority, under which the Palestinians also have obligations. Israel’s commitment to freeze settlement activity has nothing to do with the legality of settlements per se. Israel argues that the Road Map is a two-way accord, and that the Palestinians’ blatant non-compliance with its obligations means that Israel cannot be expected to comply by itself
Argument 4: ‘Israel’s West Bank settlements violate the Fourth Geneva Convention…..’

But what about the Geneva Convention?
A further argument for why Israel’s settlements are supposedly “illegal” is that they violate Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention on the Protection of Civilian Persons In Time of War, which was enacted in 1949.
Summary of response: This Article has been seriously misrepresented by those who argue that Israeli settlements violate it. It was enacted for a completely different purpose.
Article 49 applies between states – ie so-called ‘High Contracting Parties’. It forbids a sovereign state from “deporting or transferring parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies”. Earlier on the Article describes such transfers as “forcible transfers”. The purpose of the Article, according to the International Red Cross guidance (see www.icrc.org, cited by the Israeli Foreign Ministry), has always been to protect civilian populations from being forcibly relocated against their will by their own country into the territory of a state which had been conquered.
• The West Bank is not a ‘High Contracting State’: Firstly, the territory to which the settlers have moved is, as we explained the response to argument 2 above, not sovereign Palestinian territory, but “disputed territory” whose final status has still to be decided by agreement. The Geneva Convention applies to the territory of High Contracting States – ie recognised sovereign states. It is highly questionable whether the Fourth Geneva Convention applies even in principle to such territory.
• It is forcible transfers of civilian populations to occupied territory, not voluntary settlement, which is made unlawful: Even if the Geneva Convention does apply, Article 49 was enacted to prevent an occupying power from forcibly moving part of its own population against their will to another sovereign territory. Germany had done this repeatedly before and during the Second World War, when it carried out forced population transfers of German nationals into occupied Poland, Czechoslovakia and Hungary. Article 49 was designed to render such acts illegal in the future. But the Israeli settlers move voluntarily – they have not been coerced into doing so.
• The Article applies to the movement of a civilian population into genuinely alien territory, not territory from which they were criminally expelled: Article 49 does not render illegal the return of civilian populations to places from which they were criminally ousted in the first place (eg Jews re-establishing a presence in Kfar Etzion or in Hebron)
• There has been no displacement of Palestinians as a result of settlements as such: It is implicit in Article 49 that the forcible transfer needs to force out parts of the previously present population, and replace them with the alien population. But Palestinians have not been forcibly displaced as a result of Jewish settlements. The Palestinian Arab population of the West Bank has soared during the 42 years that Israel has been present in the territories, as has Palestinian Arab life expectancy. There has been no replacement of the Palestinian Arabs by the Jews, nor forced expulsion.
The establishment of Jewish settlements in the West Bank is thus not a violation of the 1949 Geneva Convention. Article 49, properly read and interpreted, has no application to the Jewish settlements. It was enacted for a completely different purpose.
Why does the issue matter?
The claim that “all Israeli settlements are illegal” is misconceived. But because it is so widely believed, the Palestinians and the Arab world have no incentive to achieve territorial compromise. They argue that international law demands the uprooting of all Israeli settlements, and that they should not have to be flexible on this matter. The claim that “all settlements are illegal” is thus fatal to a negotiated two-state solution involving land swaps and far-reaching territorial compromise.

 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 8:32 pm

The process of defining "enemies" as less than human has continued for decades.

What's most galling to me is to see those who wish to represent survivors of a most outrageous holocaust with such dismissive language of their own rights to choose their destiny.

It is, utterly vomitous.

 

Alexa R. (319)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 8:33 pm
Just Carole (594)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 5:25 pm

And, AGAIN, it is gone.

(I'm glad I saved proof that it was posted.)

Now, let's talk about censorship.

See this article:

We are forbidden to say this Gaza is a Concentration Camp

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It is a provable fact (read the above if you're interested in the truth regards Gaza) that there are not even a single Jew or IDF in Gaza, Gaza has its own government and elections, etc, etc. Such brazen lies claiming Gaza is a concentration camp when it is clearly and provably not does nothing other than incite undeserved hatred for Israel and is rightfully forbidden.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 8:41 pm

After your last remark, Alexandra, I am committed to having Care2 limit the number of characters that can be used in news network comments,

You should be embarrassed that, whenever you feel the need to respond, you are incapable of using your own words. And worse? That even when you use the words of others, you have no consideration of the amount of space you use to copy/paste the words of others.

It's only considerate (as I demonstrated) that you limit your comment to a few paragraphs . . . and then, to provide a link (in the case of those who wish to delve further.

PLEASE attempt to pretend that you have an inkling of consideration. Not all members have high-speed modems, nor should they have to scroll down (and down, and down) because a commenter -- incapable of responding with their own words -- chooses, instead to bore them with redundant recopying of the opinions of others.

[Extremely aggressive, inconsiderate and controlling behavior.]



 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 8:44 pm

Please post the URL to your article and give others the option of whether or not they wish to read forward.

(It IS the polite thing to do.)

 

JL A. (282)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 8:52 pm
No I am not representing any party other than seeking a process for conflict resolution that resolves it for all involved and you identified who all were involved Alexandra. You identified Hamas as a party who needed to be at the table.

I described to you how ANY mediated settlement process occurs (some divorces use it, for example).

I see now I must have been mistaken in seeing interest in exploration of a nonviolent method for conflict resolution in what you wrote--please forgive me for making that honest, unintentional mistake.
 

Alexa R. (319)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 8:54 pm
Just Carole (594)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 8:41 pm

After your last remark, Alexandra, I am committed to having Care2 limit the number of characters that can be used in news network comments,

....
PLEASE attempt to pretend that you have an inkling of consideration. Not all members have high-speed modems, nor should they have to scroll down (and down, and down) because a commenter -- incapable of responding with their own words -- chooses, instead to bore them with redundant recopying of the opinions of others.

[Extremely aggressive, inconsiderate and controlling behavior.]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Does the truth hurt you that much Just Carole?

PS. BTW, I am polite .. very polite ..

PPS. Is this comment of mine enough of my own words for you ..? And is it short enough for you ..? Does it fit into the Just Carole limit ..?

I do want to be considerate ..!


 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 8:59 pm

And I appreciate your pretension.

Thank you.

 

JL A. (282)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 9:11 pm
To repeat: The rules of coming to the table is that

The normal rules professional mediators lay down for exploring finding conflict resolution solutions include:
No expressions of emotion or references to past events
No accusations towards any of the other parties
No defense of own party's past actions
Communicating with respect with all other parties

 

Jelica R. (144)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 9:51 pm
Truth, Alexandra? International community does not recognise what you say as truth. On the contrary, there are many UN resolutions which say so.

1.) Israeli blockade of Gaza is illegal.

A blockade is only lawful in two circumstances; if it is authorised by a Resolution of the UN Security Council, or if it is applied in the context of a war between States. In the latter circumstance a blockade must comply with certain conditions:

- A blockading State must be at war with the blockaded State or a ‘belligerent’. Israel refuses to recognise ‘Gaza’ or ‘Hamas’ as a State or as a belligerent. It thus robs the Palestinians of any legal status so as to deny them the protection of international law. Furthermore Palestine does not exist in international law as a State.

- The blockading State must notify all States likely to be effected of the area under blockade. Normally a blockading State lodges a notice with maritime organizations, including a map specifying the blockaded area – or sends diplomatic notes to the relevant countries. Since Israel considers itself immune from international law, it has given no notice to anyone.

- Blockades targeting the civilian population are illegal. Several UN bodies have stated that the effect of the blockade is to significantly harm the population of Gaza. That this is also the intention of the blockade is evidenced by the fact that Israel rejects UN and EU proposals to monitor the blockade. This would prevent the supply of military contraband – but would make it impossible to impose a 'starvation blockade', Israel’s real intention.

Israel’s blockade of Gaza is therefore illegal

2.) Alexandra: "Israel entered the West Bank lawfully in June 1967 in the exercise of its right of self-defence against Jordanian attack."

BS! West Bank was part of Mandate Palestina allocated for the Palestinians by UN in 1947. It was not an empty land. Jordan entered WB during 1967 war to protect Palestinians, with full permission from the Palestinian Authorities. In peace negotiations in 1976, Jordan agreed to withdraw from West Bank, on behalf of Palestinians. To calm Israeli fear of being attacked from the WB, parties have agreed to keep Israeli military presence on WB until a concord between Palestina and Israel is concluded; and naively didn't put any time frame on IDF presence on the Palestinian territory, nor for the Israeli-Palestine agreement.
Invading other country's territory as a measure of self-defence should be temporary, it does not give an invader the right of keeping it. Such a medieval practice! Further, occupying force is obligated to ensure that life, health and culture of occupied people are protected; and is prohibited to economically benefit from looting resources of the occupied territory. This are the rules of the Geneva Convention, not my phantasy. I know that Hasbara dismiss all international obligations Israel was only happy to sign when an approval from international community was eagerly needed. You might have forgot it, but I and most of the world remember.
 

Alexander Werner (53)
Sunday November 18, 2012, 10:18 pm
Gaza is a "Concentration Camp"? Cute. How about an Egypt being even bigger "Concentration Camp"?

Why not:
* Egyptians make the same money as Gazans, or less;
* Egyptians don't have an option to work in Israel;
* Egyptians are not treated by Israeli hospitals or attend Israeli Universities.
* Egyptians are governed by the same Islamist Muslim Brotherhood that rules Gaza;
* Egypt and Israel also have a common border with Israel;
* There are some Jews still living in Egypt, yet none remains in Gaza.

Why not claim that Egypt is also under Israeli occupation? Carole, you have a vivid imagination.

 

Ros G. (73)
Monday November 19, 2012, 12:31 am
Alexandra R, You can really help me here because it all comes down to preception and understanding - not rhetoric or self-defense. I gave up years ago trying to get an understanding of Israel. What could never be answered is: how can so many people that are of different nationalities form a Country based on religion. The only other country in the world that has been formed on this premise is Vatican City. I learned only to ask people of the Jewish faith because I wanted their point of view and not some point of view from an outsider. Most were friends that lived here (Australia) - fought for Israel but never lived there, so they didn't really know how to answer. I was fortunate enough to help a young family from Israel settle here in Australia - they wanted a new life for their children. We shared meals and celebrations and I asked them this question too. Now I'm asking you..
 

Angelika R. (143)
Monday November 19, 2012, 6:42 am
Dear Rabbi Arthur Waskow, please send prayers our way as you see what is happening here in this thread.
All your honest intention to spread the truth have been trampled on by people who refuse to see the truth.
Any further discussion seems entirely fruitless, nevertheless we/ I thank you and Carole for the honest effort to have tried at least.
On this day 6 of the new war we have 3 Israeli death vs. about 90 Palestinian death, nearly ALL CIVILIAN women and children. Is THIS to be called "defense"??
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday November 19, 2012, 6:55 am

Amen, Angelika!

 

Alexa R. (319)
Monday November 19, 2012, 9:41 am

Ros G. (30)
Monday November 19, 2012, 12:31 am
Alexandra R, You can really help me here because it all comes down to preception and understanding - not rhetoric or self-defense. I gave up years ago trying to get an understanding of Israel. What could never be answered is: how can so many people that are of different nationalities form a Country based on religion.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hi Ros. I can quite appreciate and understand your question in the light of this being another one of those lies that has been spread across the globe before the truth could even get it's pants on ..

I wish I could give you an answer from my heart alone as someone who has been born in Israel, alas I was not born in Israel although I've made Israel my home through marriage. So my answer would be a mixture of hearts between that of my mom-in-law who was born and brought up in Israel for over 3500 years and my own as part of her extended family:

The lie-part 1 that you’ve been told is that there is supposedly a resemblance between the Vatican and Israel. Israel does not have a pontiff at the head of all decisions secular and religious. Israel’s political part system is based on the Declaration of Independence, which established a democracy and was based on the UN vote that gave the Jewish people the right to establish a state and that this was irrevocable. It also made clear that there would be an elected Constituent Assembly in the form of a Parliament (Knesset) that would form the basis of a free and fair election (even Arabs, Christians, others are in the Knesset, not just Jews or Jewish priests – so quite unlike the Vatican!). Further, the Supreme Court would rule in disputes and ensure people’s rights were respected, and the President would be a purely ceremonial rule, in effect representing Israel (the complete opposite of the Pope in the Vatican who has the ultimate authority!) The Socialist vision of Zionism that was dominant at that time ensured the fully proportional nature of Israel’s system being based on freedom, justice, peace and equality for all inhabitants regardless of gender, race or religion.

Lie-part 2 that you’ve been told before the truth could even get its pants on is that Israel is a Jewish state in the religious sense. Israel is no more or less Jewish than American is Christian! Just because Netanyahu happens to be of the Jewish faith and Obama of the Christian faith! Then also, would you call the UK an atheist state just because its Prime-Ministers Cameron and Clegg happens to be Atheists? Or because the majority of UK citizens are atheist? How many atheist countries are there in the world (those with a non- or anti religious government: UK, many EU countries, China, Russia …)? And how about the 50 Muslim countries in the world?

I think what gives the lie-part 2 a ‘feel-good’ factor is that so many people do not realize that Jewish means both a culture/nationality and a religion. Whereas for Britain the two is more distinct, being British is more readily being accepted as not necessarily meaning you’re Christian.

So as regards to Israel, the fact that it just so happens to be that Judaism is the majority religion in Israel is neither here nor there .. just like the fact that Britain is majority atheist, or Russia, or Saudi Arabia predominantly Muslim, etc, etc …

Apologies to Just Carole in advance if my words had exceeded her limit for being considerate .. I tried to keep it as concise as I possibly could (removed a whole lot, so she can thank me for at least pretending to be considerate or something …)
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Monday November 19, 2012, 9:49 am

Thank you, Alexandra.

 

Alexa R. (319)
Monday November 19, 2012, 11:59 am
Oops, it should read: Israel’s political PARTY system

NOT Israel’s political part system

Israel has a secular, democratic government and political party system ...

PS. Thank you for thanking me Just Carole ...

 

Ros G. (73)
Monday November 19, 2012, 9:40 pm
Alexandra R Many thanks for your reponse although I did find there was far to many words to wade through and still much rhetoric and self-defense for me to form an answer - and in the meantime many innocent people are still dying. Well I'll sign off with what My Zionist Jewish friend would say "Thank God- they're not Jewish lives, we are worth 10 x more than them " 3J to 90P I think the ratio has just gone up to 1:30. This is what all the outcry is about it's not about it's not Pro Muslim or Anti Jewish. Israel was formed in 1947 out of GOOD Faith and with that comes a DUTY OF CARE and that Duty of Care has been violated. If Israel can't see that the International community will.
 

Alexa R. (319)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 6:44 am
Ros G. (30)
Monday November 19, 2012, 9:40 pm
Israel was formed in 1947 out of GOOD Faith and with that comes a DUTY OF CARE and that Duty of Care has been violated. If Israel can't see that the International community will.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Israel takes her dut of care very seriously! In spite of all the rockets, Israel still provides all thinks like water, electricity, aid, etc to Gazians .. Can ou give even one example of where Israel is not taking her duty of care seriously?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As for the 3J to 90P firstly, the 3J is incorrect it is simply 2 Israeli civilians, it could be Christians, Arabs any one, what gave you the idea that they are specifically Jews?!? -- your friend in Australian might think Israeli lives are worth more than Gazian lives, we here in Israel certainly don't!)- Israel has targetted terrorist hide-outs and ammunition shelters. Even warned any civilians to get out of those areas before striking. (Hamas targets civilians without warning!) Israel tries to clear out the terrorists/weapons and thus save many Israeli lives whether Israeli Jews, Arabs, Christians or Atheists...

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=7996



by Itamar Marcus and Nan Jacques Zilberdik



In response to Israel's Operation Pillar of Defense that aims to cripple the terrorist infrastructure in Gaza and protect Israeli civilians[NOT JUST JEWISH CIVILIANS], Hamas' military wing, the Al-Qassam Brigades, has produced videos addressing Israelis.

"From the Palestinian people to the Zionists: We've missed the suicide attacks. Expect us soon at bus stations and in cafés."

[Al-Aqsa TV (Fatah), Nov. 18, 2012]

~~~
emphasis mine
 

Alexa R. (319)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 6:46 am
Oops it should read: Israel takes her DUTY of care very seriously!

NOT Israel takes her dut of care very seriously!
 

Alexa R. (319)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 7:15 am
Oops it should read: As for the 3J to 90P firstly, the 3J is incorrect it is simply 3 Israeli civilians, it could be Christians, Arabs any one, what gave you the idea that they are specifically Jews?!?

 

Ros G. (73)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 2:37 pm
I do apologise for this assumption the 3 Israeli civilians were Jewish. Since there were only 2 you will be able to tell me exactly who and what they were. "in spite of all the rockets" It is like me serving you a meal - it was a really delicious "in spite of the poison" in it. Yes, there are many good Israeli people that want peace for both sides. But in order for them to get it for their own families they migrate to other Countries. My new aquired Israeli friends (Jewish) - who were actually born there said: "you have to plan your escape carefully - so there is no repercussions for the ones you left behind" Sounds more like defection to me.
 

Alexa R. (319)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 5:38 pm
I've no intention to abandon my country for any other random country, Ros.

Israel is the best country in the world according to me and I adore living here. I do desire peace with all my heart and believe with all my heart that it will be oneday, in the not so distant future ...
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 5:49 pm

Bless your heart . . . and mazel tov, Alexandra.

"From your mouth to God's ear."

 

Ros G. (73)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 7:31 pm
On that note I wish you the very best Alexandra - if we have people in Israel that truly want Peace then it will happen - become that MAJORITY...PEACE BEGINS WITH YOU. Green Star coming your way for that brief but very passionate posting. MAKE YOUR PASSION MOVES OTHERS. My job is done here Peace and Happiness to all.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 7:44 pm

As it should be.

I wish no ill will on those who promote peace and equality.

 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Tuesday November 20, 2012, 7:52 pm

In fact, and in all reality, I wish no ill will on ANYONE (even those deluded fools who harm others).

I'm not a Christian (or any other religious follower), but I respect the right of all beings (human and animal) to live without cruelty.

We are blessed with so much beauty. I wish others could recognize the wonder of that, and challenge anyone who would deprive others of that freedom to experience it.

That would, truly, be a worthy mitzvah.



 

Nancy C. (807)
Wednesday November 21, 2012, 8:04 am
Thanx for promoting this article...Read from home email. There are at least 2 sides to any situation. Peace and safety to all.
 

Carole Sarcinello (338)
Wednesday November 21, 2012, 11:45 am
 
From Jewish Voice For Peace:
 
As I write this, a cease-fire agreement between Israel and Hamas has just taken effect. We hope and pray that it will hold.
 
Text of Israel-Hamas ceasefire agreement

(AFP) – 1 hour ago 

CAIRO — Israel and Hamas agreed Wednesday to an Egyptian-brokered ceasefire accord to end a week of violence in and around the Gaza Strip following days of marathon talks.

Here is the text of the ceasefire agreement which is set to take effect at 1900 GMT:

"Israel shall stop all hostilities in the Gaza Strip land sea and air, including incursions and targeting of individuals.

"All Palestinian factions shall stop all hostilities from the Gaza Strip against Israel, including rocket attacks and all attacks along the border.

"Opening the crossings and facilitating the movement of people and transfer of goods and refraining from restricting residents' free movements and targeting residents in border areas. Procedures of implementation shall be dealt with after 24 hours from the start of the ceasefire.

"Other matters as may be requested shall be addressed."

"Implementation mechanism.

"Setting up the zero hour understanding to enter into effect.

"Egypt shall receive assurances from each party that the party commits to what was agreed upon.

"Each party shall commit itself not to perform any acts that would breach this understanding. In case of any observations, Egypt as a sponsor of this understanding, shall be informed to follow up."

 

Fadi M. (37)
Saturday November 24, 2012, 4:46 am
Always happy to see brave people like Rabbi Arthur speak up to the truth regardless of which side it supports. Actually to me I celebrate and get much hope from people like Norman Finkelstein and many other brave activists who refuse to be sheeple to their own government or fall victims to mainstream media and deliberate ignorance. I am also against any form of killing under any kind of justification if it is not self-defense in its one and only true meaning, not on a state or army level where individuals can have lunch, sex, read a magazine, watch a movie, etc. while putting up a "self defence" killing strategy!

Having said that, I believe that if modern day human beings were to extinct, they will extinct for no reason other than ignorance itself, taking into consideration all the scary military technology put in the hands of brainwashed people who lack all sorts of compassion and humanity towards other human beings, and seem to be capable of processing limited forms of information such as strategy, military advantage, intelligence, allies, foes, diplomacy, surprise element, advanced weaponry and tactics… What a great shame that such people are able to decide our future and the future of our children, if there was one.

Unfortunately many good people have fallen victims to the propaganda machine that “Israel” (Once you read down further you will know why I put the word Israel between quotation marks) has been running for ages. It is the same propaganda machine that Rabbi Arthur here is exposing, and the same machine that caused countless wars and sufferings all over the world. I am not going to take you back to the days when “God” was a woman, no, I just want you to realize that the world we live in today is pretty much influenced in a very negative way by the male “God” that began to appear around 3800 years ago. However, let me spare you the details and get to the point.

One of the greatest lies and deceptive ideas that the state of Israel has managed to sell to the world is the claim of it being a homeland for the Jews. Well, to those who watch mainstream media this might sound like a realistic and legitimate claim, but to those who dig deeper in search of the truth, this claim is very much twisted and refuted. Why? The answer is simply because the founders of the state of Israel (Theodore Herzl, David Ben-Gurion, Golda Meir, Chaim Weizmann and others) have neither been Jewish in faith or practice, nor adhere to the teachings of Torah; they are Zionists who defiantly went against the Torah and against the true Jewish faith. This link will illustrate in simple words the history and relationship between Jews and other nations on one hand, and Jews and Zionists on the other hand. http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/notjews.cfm
Please take a moment to check it out and I promise you that most of your confusion about the conflict with Israel in the Middle East will disappear. You will also begin to realize why so many Rabbis and Jewish leaders all over the world are publicly opposed to the state of Israel and its entire existence.

I have many other links and articles to share with those who seek the truth and would like to get to the root causes of the problem. Of course it is no mystery that Israel can never establish itself without the financial funding, political and religious influence, thus, it would be naïve to assume that the founders of Israel I mentioned above had acted alone and managed to force their idea on the entire world. And this is where the role of the world’s secret government represented by several secret powers and institutions such as Order of the Freemasons and Order of the Illuminati comes into action (The same people who made it hard for you and me to survive in today’s world, and caused 46 million Americans to live on food stamps).

In your free time please do watch the following video, and I promise you it will enlighten you in many ways and broaden your perspective on the whole conflict in the Middle East. It is a speech by Dr. Mazin Qumsiyeh a Palestinian-American originally from Beit-Sahour (“Shepherds Field” where Jesus’ birth in Bethlehem was first announced by angels according to the Bible). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4z8zC05Hr0Y

I apologize for my long comment.

All the best!
 

federico bortoletto (46)
Saturday November 24, 2012, 7:04 am
Notato,bell'articolo.
 

Angelika R. (143)
Saturday November 24, 2012, 9:18 am
No need or reason to apologize, Fadi M., your valuable input is most appreciated! Thanks.
I just fear you may not be able to hold on to your promise as those of us who already know the truth, need not get convinced and all others have had their chance to SEEK AND FIND OUT the TRUTH, had they so wished !
That suggests they are actually resistant to learning the truth and it would be almost a miracle if the information you provide could serve to convince them and abandon their false believes. It MIGHT serve to some less biased view though.

Yes, the state of Israel has done a great job in selling basic lies for such a long time, but they couldn't have done it without the help of the media in both Israel and the USA.
This strategic pattern of continuous repetiions has brought the desired success up to a point where even the liars have forgotten the truth.
 

. (0)
Monday November 26, 2012, 2:11 pm
Thank you Gillian,and Alexandra - two very gifted writers.
As Kit said in the very beginning, this was a good article about the causes....nothing more. Rabbi's are good at throwing out questions, without having an answer themselves.
 

Suheyla C. (234)
Saturday December 1, 2012, 9:49 am
Thank you Carole
Yes...
In this war, no one wins. Both sides unhappy with the boy. And every human being, surrounded paranoid. Always be ready for battle.
 

Alexa R. (319)
Saturday December 1, 2012, 1:50 pm
Fadi M. (24)
Saturday November 24, 2012, 4:46 am
One of the greatest lies and deceptive ideas that the state of Israel has managed to sell to the world is the claim of it being a homeland for the Jews.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's not a lie, it's the truth, read history. The lie is to deny that Israel is the homeland of the Jews.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fadi M. (24)
Saturday November 24, 2012, 4:46 am
The answer is simply because the founders of the state of Israel (Theodore Herzl, David Ben-Gurion, Golda Meir, Chaim Weizmann and others) have neither been Jewish in faith or practice, nor adhere to the teachings of Torah

~~~~~~~~~~

Not much has changed then: today we have the majority of Jews, the mainstay of those who oppose Israel as a homeland for the Jews are themselves neither Jewish in faith nor practice, nor adhere to the teachings of Torah .. with a few religious Jews/rabbis chipping in with them ..

Most of the rabbis I know are not against Israel as a homeland for the Jews ..
 
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