Saturday July 5, 2008, 12:05 pm

I don't understand why we bother with a two-party pretense.

Saturday July 5, 2008, 12:11 pm
noted, thanx for the informative post and links too, C.

Saturday July 5, 2008, 12:20 pm
OK, then who SHOULD we chose - give some alternative.

Do you think we have better chance of "change" under McCain?

Also, it is unfair to say Democrats have done nothing for change since the last election cycle. I have seen many bills introduced in this last congressional round that never saw the light of day before the democrats took control. However, the problem is that the republicans have been interfearing with the democrats efforts for change. Remember, the democrats have a "majority" of only 51 senators, as compaired to 49 republicans. Thus they have been able to introduce many bills, but have not been able to carry them through because all it takes is ONE senator to fillerbuster (stop discussions on a topic), while it takes 60 senators votes to break such a filerbuster. Thus it would take 9 republicans to "cross party lines" for the bill to move furthur, if ONE republican fillibusters. Of note today, the record shows that the republicans have used the fillerbuster more times in the last congress than at anytime in the history of congress - effectively stopping bills from even being discussed!

Saturday July 5, 2008, 12:25 pm

These are statistics, not arguments. They are presented for educational purposes so that voters (or potential non-voters) can evaluate them and make their own decisions, based on facts -- not rhetoric.

I'm simply publishing news, Chris. Thanks for adding your input.

Saturday July 5, 2008, 12:34 pm
Shure - just presenting facts - I'm sure that picture is just "educational" - anyway, I don't want to pick a fight with you - just presenting my views - thanks for considering them...

Saturday July 5, 2008, 12:37 pm
noted i'm out of town with dial up ty carole

Saturday July 5, 2008, 12:56 pm
Unfortunately, Carole, you and I are in that leaky boat of believing that at this point elections are a shell game and the winner has been picked. It's a shame that one has to be a millionaire to run these days - because the only real candidate for change these days would have to come out of a populist, not a political, environment. Fat chance!

Saturday July 5, 2008, 1:00 pm
noted thanks carole ,good news article.

Saturday July 5, 2008, 1:01 pm

So true, Cate.

Saturday July 5, 2008, 1:26 pm
ummmmmmmmmmmmm .....CATE i do not know of any president who was elected to office who were not prior to election in todays dollars a millionaire ......IF I AM WRONG PLEASE LET ME KNOW ... i am thinking and thinking and can not think of one do you know of which one{s} were not millionaires by todays standards ......

i suggest everyone read a book called "HOW TO LIE WITH STATISTICS" by darrell huff .......most people need this when the studying statistics ........FIRST STATISTICS ARE NOT FACTS ......it is data now whether that data is accurate or slanted is totally up to the one doing the research .....

Saturday July 5, 2008, 1:28 pm
I left the democratic party back in 2000.

While I still remain a liberal, I am simply tired of the two party system; it's like an endless game of badminton.

When one party wins the white house, more time and resources are spent on undoing what the last party's administration did that nothing ever gets done and we go nowhere.

I am also tired of voting for the lesser of two evils.

Until things change or a new party with answers comes on the scene, I will remain independent and pledge allegiance to no one except the earth, animals and mankind in general.

Saturday July 5, 2008, 1:40 pm
I totally agree Michael - though registered democrat, I vote for the planet and humans! The problem I see, is that lots of people seem to be knocking Obama (whom I think has the strongest environmental platform of ANY candidate) and the "democrats", but few of these people offer an alternative. I want the most environmental president in the whitehouse, but am offered no alternatives except McCain...

Saturday July 5, 2008, 1:46 pm

Chris, do you think that a Congress where Senators and Representatives can act without the express consent of their constituents, and who cannot be removed by their constituents during their terms of office even if it is conclusively proven that they were fraudulently elected, or even if it has been conclusively proven that they are opposing rather than representing the will of more than 80% of their constituents, is an institution compatible with a democracy or a republic?

Suppose you were looking to buy a car and you wanted something that ran on ethanol, methane, electricity, or a hybrid combination of gas and something else. So you come to my car dealership and I tell you that your only choices are between a standard SUV and a slightly smaller SUV with somewhat better gas mileage. Will you whine and complain that you have no choice but to buy the smaller SUV because those are your only choices, or will you walk out of my dealership and go find the kind of car you want?

Nobody has the right to limit your choices. You're an American. You're an educated consumer. You know what you want and you have a right to go for it. If you want peace and the only candidates on the ballot with any chance of winning whatsoever are pro-war, you don't vote until you get some candidates you want. If you want responsible fiscal policies and the only candidates on the ballot with any chance of winning whatsoever belong to political parties that have demonstrated fiscal irresponsibility for seven years, you don't vote until you get honest elections that include some fiscally responsible candidates who have an equal chance of winning.

If you know the game is rigged, and you still gamble, you need to contact Gamblers Anonymous. They can help you, Chris. First you have to admit that you have a problem and then you'll be well on your way to overcoming it.

And we'll all be here for you, Chris. We care.

Saturday July 5, 2008, 1:47 pm

Chris, click your mouse on the link underlined in blue below and it will take you to a group where you can learn about your options by checking the shares, the discussions, or asking questions of anyone there.

No in November

It is an open group and you do not have to join to read it or to post. It is essential to democracy to have an informed electorate, so we've been posting the information that people need in order to be informed. Use it.

Saturday July 5, 2008, 1:50 pm

Elgin, even voting records can lie. Congress allows its Members to vote one way and then to have the Congressional Record show that they voted the other way. But we also have C-Span where we can watch the voting live, and those who care carefully take note of who votes which way on what. So when we say that somebody voted for or against something, it is not a variable statistic, it is a fact. Not even the politicians themselves can deny such facts, although many do try.

Saturday July 5, 2008, 1:52 pm
Well, I would say that all sounds very nice, however, the "system" is what we got. Simply not voting will not change that in my opinion...

I happen to truely believe in what Obama says about the environment - and feel he is the right person for the job based on that - the environment weighs heavily in my deliberations. If there is someone better to vote for - make an offer.

By not voting you are indeed giving all the control to those who you don't want to controll you...Keep fighting the "rigged" system...but until you fix it, one should do with what we have...not simply give in to the "system"...

Saturday July 5, 2008, 1:54 pm

Thanks for posting, Carole. Those who have ears and eyes.... :)

Saturday July 5, 2008, 1:54 pm

For example, Elgin, suppose that somebody introduces a bill in Congress to allow or to ban gay marriage. Everyone who is concerned with that issue will note who the cosponsors of the bill are and will take careful note of which way everyone in Congress votes. When an issue is of concern to people, they don't go by statistics, they watch carefully to see what actually happens.

Saturday July 5, 2008, 1:56 pm
There is a third party canidate - Barr is his name. Look into it. And stop the bickering. There aren't any lines anymore (they are just as fake as AlQuada) - so get a grip will ya?! Everyone is working for the same tired old system - NWO anyone?! Either "Party" you vote for will screw us up royally and then we get to blame them. Same game different day.

Remember that old saying, it's easier to ask for forgiveness then permission - well, can't say it's not true when it comes to politicians. They'll promise you the sky but in the end, it's their own adgenda that will win out. Oh, of course, after they've done what they really came to do, will come the appologies - if we're lucky.

Saturday July 5, 2008, 1:58 pm

Good point, Mark.

Because impeachment is a key issue with me, I receive Google alerts whenever Kucinich's Articles of Impeachment are mentioned. Further, I subscribe to CSPAN, and receive daily notices of upcoming programming.

Saturday July 5, 2008, 2:01 pm
Sorry you have such a negative view on the process - not that it is unjustified in many (but not all) cases - but people have died to give me the right to vote and I am not going to throw it away based on some conspericy theories!! My vote may mean nothing - but not voting, in my opinion, means even less - most see a no vote as apathy, not making a statement (though some of you would do it as a statement, that is not how it is preceived by most)...

Saturday July 5, 2008, 2:05 pm
OK, I have made my points - take it or leave it - now Mark and Carole can talk at infinitam about how they ar right LOL I would not want to "insert" myself further where I am not wanted - right Carole???

Saturday July 5, 2008, 2:08 pm

Have a nice weekend, Chris!

Saturday July 5, 2008, 2:16 pm
well then lets not use the word "STATISTIC"

MARK may i point out you are wrong in that we as citizens do not have the ability to take action against those we sent to office ......i.e our reps and senators ....or for that matter any official we elected to office for our state ,city ,township ,county ......all except president
WELL OUT RIGHT IN AT LEAST 18 STATES OFFICIALLY

HERE I WILL LIST THEM
Alaska
Arizona
California
Colorado
Georgia
Idaho


Kansas
Louisiana
Michigan
Minnesota
Montana
Nevada


New Jersey
North Dakota
Oregon
Rhode Island
Washington
Wisconsin
IT IS CALLED THE RECALLING OF STATE OFFICIALS ...... it is offend used for local people but does apply to reps and senators ......

there are at least two dc and virginia which after a citizen petition a trial is held for the member instead of a vote......

WE HAVE THE MEANS BUT WE NEED TO KNOW THE RULES OF THE GAME ....its called civics and it is your responsibility to know the laws and how things work to work within the system to change those things which you feel are out of step with modernity .........IF YOU DO NOT TAKE PART AND JUST SAY NO IN NOVEMBER .WHAT ARE YA REALLY SAYING .......not a whole lot ......it would be better to write in none of the above .......but i dont see any of these no in november people acting locally .....by this i mean you dont tell us here in care2 whats happening in your local area in the government .....PEOPLE DO NOT VOTE LOCALLY AND THAT IS WHY IT APPEARS WE HAVE A TWO PARTY SYSTEM WHICH WE DO NOT ............there are many parties but if you want them in congress or the white house you better get your ass out there and get them elected in your town first .........

Saturday July 5, 2008, 2:18 pm
JC - if you want to be more efficient in communicating with me - unblocking me would be a good start LOL!!!

Saturday July 5, 2008, 2:20 pm

Hmmm . . . another succinct point. Thanks, Chris.

Saturday July 5, 2008, 2:24 pm
if congress voted to ban same sex marrage and it passed i would do what i am doing now live in germany and sue the united states of america ......cause what would we call the defense of marriage act ..........congress would be sued if they passed a bill that forced states on any gay marriage pro or con due to it being a state right and only the judiciary can decide if a law violated the rights of the citizens and or the rights of states ..........

Saturday July 5, 2008, 3:57 pm

Chris, nobody died to give you the right to vote in RIGGED elections. Do your homework. People fought and died for the right to have a voice in government. An uncounted vote or a vote flipped to a candidate you didn't vote for, is NOT a voice in government.

Elgin, Article One Section Five of the Constitution says that Congress is the sole judge of the elections, returns, and qualifications of its Members, and that only Congress can expel a sitting Member of Congress.

As for "the judiciary" do you mean these clowns?

Sheer Supremacy

They're the ones who will make the decision if anyone sues Congress. When did you decide that the rights of Americans should be decided by an unelected group of nine a$$holes? And who made you the decider anyway?

Hanna, it only matters who you vote for in HONEST elections. We don't have honest elections. We have rigged elections. The only people who vote in rigged elections are those who don't care if their vote is counted or not.

Here are some sources you can check out if you don't believe that our elections are rigged:

Witness to a Crime: A Citizens' Audit of an American Election by Richard Hayes Phillips (Hardcover with CD ROM, Canterbury Press, March 2008

How the GOP Stole America's 2004 Election & Is Rigging 2008 by Bob Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman (Paperback - Sep 21, 2005)

What Happened in Ohio: A Documentary Record of Theft and Fraud in the 2004 Election by Bob Fitrakis, Steve Rosenfeld, and Harvey Wasserman

Did George W. Bush Steal America's 2004 Election? by Bob Fitrakis, Steve Rosenfeld, and Harvey Wasserman (Paperback - May 30, 2005)

Was the 2004 Presidential Election Stolen?: Exit Polls, Election Fraud, and the Official Count by Steve Freeman and Joel Bleifuss (Paperback - Jun 19, 2006)

HACKED! High Tech Election Theft in America - 11 Experts Expose the Truth by Abbe Waldman Delozier and Vickie Karp (Paperback - Sep 5, 2006)

Supreme Injustice: How the High Court Hijacked Election 2000 by Alan M. Dershowitz (Hardcover - 2001)

A Badly Flawed Election: Debating Bush V. Gore, the Supreme Court, and American Democracy by Ronald Dworkin (Hardcover - Sep 2002)


Irreparable Harm: The U.S. Supreme Court and The Decision That Made George W. Bush President by Renata Adler (Paperback - Jul 2004)

Fooled Again: The Real Case for Electoral Reform by Mark Crispin Miller (Paperback - Jun 2007)

Loser Take All: Election Fraud and The Subversion of Democracy, 20002008 by Mark Crispin Miller (Paperback - April 1, 2008)

Armed Madhouse: Who's Afraid of Osama Wolf?, The Best Legal Whorehouse in Texas, The Scheme to Steal Election '08, No Child's Behind Left, and Other Investigations by Greg Palast (Kindle Edition - Mar 3, 2007)

And if you don't like to read, you can google videos like "Hacking Democracy" "Unprecedented" "Uncounted" and many others.

Those who consider their vote precious, should take the time to find out if their votes are actually counted. How precious is a vote that isn't counted? How precious is a vote counted for a different candidate than the one you voted for? Who shed their blood for government's right to throw away your vote or flip it to a different candidate? How many times am I going to have to listen to that same nonsense?

Saturday July 5, 2008, 4:04 pm
Noted.
I got my newer version of my Voters Registration Card in the mail today. It now states that a paper ballot is now required = of course, I do live in Florida!!!
(just adding a good laugh to your (battle) discussion.