Saturday September 6, 2008, 8:50 am
Very wrong! These patients could be yours or my relative. They need help and not gas! This IS the Holocaust in America.

Saturday September 6, 2008, 11:58 am
Oh my, no Mary, this is soooo wrong. I only moved here a year ago. For this I will definately making phone calls, not writing my Florida Reps. & Governor Crist and maybe to the judge himself! This is not the way to treat mentally ill prisoners, no way! I will do what I can, and let you know what I hear.

I will start calling on Monday, there has to be a solution to this. I never knew about them still using gas to kill people, how barbaric, especially the sickly incapable. And here in the state that I just moved to, well they will certainly be hearing from me hon, and they will get an earful.
Oh, this gets me upset.

TY so much Mary for giving us heads up on this insane practice. Totally noted.
FreeSpiritRunning...

Saturday September 6, 2008, 12:04 pm
You are very correct June! The public defenders most are given are a joke. My son's was nicknamed "Sell 'em down the river George" The man was useless did not wish to talk to me only my son and my son has mental problems!His attorney was so bad that he made my son want to commit suicide! I do not claim my son is completely innocent but no one even look at the circumstances! Florida believes only in punishment! No help No Hope! Thanks,Mary!

Saturday September 6, 2008, 12:14 pm
A MUST READ! NOTED! PLEASE KEEP ME POSTED ON THIS MARY. THANK YOU!

Saturday September 6, 2008, 12:20 pm
Thank you Free Spirit Running, and to Linda and June, for noting the story and passing it along to your friends and groups.

The thing is that our legislators and judges already know that it is wrong to treat people this way for having a mental disability they cannot control, but for a long time, the public was angry about acute mental patients being hospitalized in mental institutions. Many of those institutions were delapidated and managed poorly. There were many abuses.

The problem is that instead of correcting the problems in the mental institutions for mental patients who require containment due to violent tendancies, and making community care more available with mandatory treatment guidelines for non-violent mental patients, they simply emptied the mental institutions altogether and are continually closing and downsizing them every day! Now how much sense does that make?

Taxpayers have an increased burden paying for mental patients to be imprisoned (court, imprisonment, AND treatment in jail), as opposed to the lesser cost of treatment alone. Besides that, our mentally dysfunctional citizens are kept under inhumane circumstances in jail -- many in solitary confinement, naked to prevent self-inflicted injuries.

Let us all do what we can to demand change. Please pray for God to lead you as to what you can do to help. AIMI is trying to make a difference, right here on Care2 at the link below. All we need is YOU.

Assistance to the Incarcerated Mentally Ill

http://www.care2.com/c2c/group/AIMI

Blessings,

Mary

Saturday September 6, 2008, 12:27 pm
Felicia, and all who note the story, thank you for showing you CARE!

Mary

Saturday September 6, 2008, 12:48 pm

Thanks Mary,..

.. all people have to do is stand up together,

.. Wake up, they are gassing everything on Earth,..

.. for its own good, you know, they blow up and ban everything, for your own good.

- they cry like babies, when you look into any nwo, "persons eyes."

,, Try it, and mean it,.. before you are completely dead.

Saturday September 6, 2008, 12:56 pm
There has got to be a different, better and much more humane way of dealing with the mentally ill, no matter where they are, PERIOD!

This is unconscionable. I OBJECT!

Saturday September 6, 2008, 1:08 pm
The mental patients' lawyers are also asking that the inmates are at least given soap to shower after being GASSED, so they will not itch and burn all night, naked and secluded in solitary confinement, tossing and turning on their cold, bare, metal prison racks. Many are not given mattresses or clothes, for fear that they would hurt themselves -- Jails are not hospitals, so police don't have time to watch them every second, after all!

This happens in America! It must end!

Mary

Saturday September 6, 2008, 1:30 pm

Thank You Again,.. Mary Neale,.. Thank You Very Much,..

Can any-one, read, and think, at the same time?

Lets try this again,..

The mental patients' lawyers are also asking that the inmates are at least given soap to shower after being GASSED, so they will not itch and burn all night, naked and secluded in solitary confinement, tossing and turning on their cold, bare, metal prison racks. Many are not given mattresses or clothes, for fear that they would hurt themselves -- Jails are not hospitals, so police don't have time to watch them every second, after all!

This happens in America! It must end!

Mary

Lets try this again,..

The mental patients' lawyers are also asking that the inmates are at least given soap to shower after being GASSED, so they will not itch and burn all night, naked and secluded in solitary confinement, tossing and turning on their cold, bare, metal prison racks. Many are not given mattresses or clothes, for fear that they would hurt themselves -- Jails are not hospitals, so police don't have time to watch them every second, after all!

This happens in America! It must end!

Mary, Scott,.. anyone else,.. ?

... creating reality,101,

Thinking,.. saying,... and,..,... DOING !

Saturday September 6, 2008, 1:32 pm
It's morally wrong but so is the gassing of innocent animals:( What has become of this once great nation:(

Saturday September 6, 2008, 1:34 pm
They don't want the mentally ill prisoner to hurt themselves so that they can kill/gas them?

Saturday September 6, 2008, 1:37 pm
This is very disturbing. It should not be happeng. Something has to be done. Noted with anger. Thanks Mary. Thanks for sending to me Cate.

Saturday September 6, 2008, 1:40 pm
The "system " is merciless, why do so many still believe that the system that WE created will still get us through this? Not logical= not believable,period. Time for the new , while we wipe out the old with commitment, perserverence, personal responsibilty, the POWER of thought, applying the universal laws with the flow of creation and of course the beginning(end) of the cosmic cycles.

UNIVERSAL PRAYER
O' Hidden Life! vibrant in every atom,
O' Hidden Light! shining in every creature,
O' Hidden Love! embracing all inOneness,
May each who feels himself as one with Thee,
Know he is also one with every other

Thx Cate!

Saturday September 6, 2008, 1:42 pm
Thx Mary!

Saturday September 6, 2008, 1:52 pm

This is more what I mean,..

Can anyone, Read, and Think at the same time, and remember what they read, 10 seconds later, after they see a picture of Paris Hilton ?


Lets try this again,.. one last time, before I get censored, and locked up,
for being insane.

This was me a few days ago,..


Hi DR...###

Yes, after ###, @ ### on ####, will be fine.

Sorry about the lengthy reply, but to fill you in,..

I don't want what happened to Marcy,(traumatic experience) to happen again,

Its 3:09am, Marcy finally went to sleep, she was worried,
about,.. me, her, our children,.. as stated below ...

I would basically like a simple, mental, and physical examination, on
record, from an Expert. ... if I am "reasonably, healthy, and sane"...
I'm now ### of ###, and we can't afford any more crap, as below.

... one of my family members, called the police,on me,(for my own
good, they said), 3 police cars, and 3 police officers(friends) at my
house,had me handcuffed(by law, they didn't want to, but it was no
problem,), and taken to Welland Hospital, sat in a nut room, for a few
hours, handcuffed,.. the "doctor", saw me, and released me with no
resrictions, what so ever.

If I had got angry,..mouthed off, to the doctor, or police, they would
have banged me up, and locked me up, for 72 hours, or the rest of my
life, if they chose to.

... So, I would like, simply,.. on record,.. if I am healthy, and sane.

Please, Just email me to verify about the time, etc.

If possible, could you book me in for one hour with ###, next
week, or the next available slot, after that, to work on the rest of
my body, as required.

Thanks,
Scott

Ps,.. they were worried, I would hurt myself, or someone, and that I
was insane,.. NOT, I am here, now, still.. mouthing off, as usual,..

No-one in my family, ever worried about me saying I wished I was
dead, for the last 30 years, while I was drugged right out, and I told
everyone that,.. all the time, back then.

My father, tried to kill himself, failed,.. told everyone in my
family, that he would continue, until he was successful, at killing
himself,..

They were all quite content, with that,.. as long as he took enough
drugs, so they didn't have to hear about it.

He was successful, at killing himself..

This will not happen to me.

Scott

This happens in America! It must end!

Mary, Scott,.. anyone else,.. ? we have a very good reason, for mouthing off, before they lock us up,.. for our own good.

... creating reality,101,

Thinking,.. saying,... and,..,... DOING !

Saturday September 6, 2008, 2:01 pm
Thanks so much, Scott. Thanks on behalf of all our imprisoned mental patients who are afraid and alone today, many of whom are deserted even by their own families.

Mary

Saturday September 6, 2008, 2:14 pm
This is RIDICULOUS!! I lived in Florida when they electrocuted the man who was mentally retarded. I remember when that execution went awry as the chair malfunctioned and they had to "throw the switch" THREE times. Someone with mental illness is NOT responsible for their actions. They have no understanding of consequences. I have a mentally retarded uncle and would be outraged if ANY govt. tried to hurt him for doing something he doesn't realize is wrong!!

Saturday September 6, 2008, 2:36 pm

Thanks Again Mary Neal, you are a special person.

Saturday September 6, 2008, 2:45 pm
I don't think anyone has asked this question: What are mentally ill people doing in prison with criminals? I know many of them perform criminal acts, but as soon as it is known that they are mentally ill, they should be separated from hard core criminals. There need to be three facilities; prison for lawbreakers, hospitals for mentally ill, and lockup facilities for criminally inclined mentally ill. I know this would be expensive, but hey, we throw away a bundle every hour trying to protect Iraq from itself. We need to petition every governor, every congressperson, and whoever is the head of these so-called prisons until this treatment stops. IT'S ABUSE, PURE AND SIMPLE. The mentally ill do not stand a chance in this country: what's wrong with this picture? Noted, with much aggrevation,thanks, Mary. PS I had to go back and reword to take out naughty ones....

Saturday September 6, 2008, 3:25 pm
This is wrong and as Cate et al say, there's gotta be a better way. However we need to accept some of the responsibility. For decades, mental institutions were permitted to become dinosaurs with no improvements other than becoming bigger since voters were neither wanted to pay or support the taxes. We, as a population, shut down the institutions without establishing meaningful alternatives because they would have too expensive. We refuse to pay for the very expensive capital projects and increased staffing for jails and prisons. We say not in my backyard when it comes to building new facilities and demand no new taxes. We get tough on crime with mandatory sentencing that takes decision making from judges away. It is so sad that we have thrown billions of dollars down the drain in Iraq when that money would have gone along way in helping this issue and others. Mental health problems is difficult, expensive and not sexy. It is too expensive to fix the problem yet war is cheap because it is such a small percentage of out gnp. We, the voters, need to let our congressmen know what our priorities are along with our willingness to pay for them. Like most problems, we can save a little on mental health now and pay later or we can start to fix the problem now.

Saturday September 6, 2008, 3:27 pm
OMG! The elderly Jewish population in Florida must be horribly frightened.

Saturday September 6, 2008, 3:55 pm
Thanks Mary, Angrily noted, whats next? Tasers!?!?!?!?

Saturday September 6, 2008, 4:18 pm
I am outraged over this! My next thought is what type of toxic chemicals are they spraying on these poor people? They may need to be monitored for symptoms due to chemical exposure, washing off with soap is simply just not enough. If they can produce an MSDS sheet that would be a good start.

Saturday September 6, 2008, 5:01 pm
Thanks Mary this angers me to no means they let real murders get away with every thing in prison's but someone who is mental Ill and gass them OH Shit no this does not fly with me. Do not give up Mary too many people are fighting for you this you can count on. The real prisoners that deserve it nothing happens!!! For Pity Sakes this world has gone off it rocker for sure. Thanks Mary Noted with much anger.

Saturday September 6, 2008, 5:30 pm
There is meant to be a fundamental seperation in treatment of badness and madness,to put it crudely.Incarceration of those with mental health problems,is usually a reflection of ignorance,intolerance or a mixture of both.
How does gas treat someone,"well we've got the crap drugs,y'know the sedatives,we've got the electro-convulsive therapy,we need something much worse,i know lets use up some of that Zyclon B we've got left over,that those nazis we employed in our defence industry brought over..great idea".
It is mainly human society,that creates mental illness,either by false definitions and labelling or by its lack of cohesiveness and compassion.To come out of an episode safetly,human connection and warmth are necessary.Its not f****g rocket science.Ive worked in mental health for ten years,and yes some drugs do help,though the problems are usually a product of experiences,and its mainly positive experiences,a sense of worth and control,and a bit of love that works best..its dead simple..

Saturday September 6, 2008, 5:35 pm
The margins between present day USA and Germany 1939/45 get slimmer each day.

Seriously the plight of the mentally ill is one that is close to my heart...ahving suffered bi-polar for many years after childhood abuse. It is the most neglected part of medicine...many of the drugs we have to put up with have been arround for over twenty years and are not effective...and little or no research is done on how to change the stigma attached to suffering a mental condition. The fact that the sunshine state put them in prison is just to keep them out of site...the old bedlam theory and the use of gas is just horrific...as are plastic restrainers, starvation, dehydration...all part of the normal treatment plans regularily used,

again Cate thanks for this one...but we remain the poor relation of medical research.

Saturday September 6, 2008, 6:38 pm
I wish more of you out there knew of everything that goes on here in "Floridiotworld", you might be thinking you are watching a made for t.v. movie...oh wait, there are made for t.v. movies in the works!!!!!!
Daily I shake my head at the news of things here. A raping of ANOTHER elderly woman, tied up with her own bras, the Caylee Anthony crap, everything... welcome to Floridiotland, and I greet you at the door, with a smile, "Welcome to the Sunshine State..." Oh yea, have you seen our governors canned/fake tan?.

Saturday September 6, 2008, 7:23 pm
Thank you everyone for caring about the incarcerated mentally ill. Please visit my home page and see what they did to my mentally ill brother. God used his death to recruit me for this advocacy, and now He has given me access to many other people who CARE! Thank you, CARE2, for creating this means of enlisting support to help the least of these, His brethren.

Most mental patients are able to function perfectly well without containment. In fact, it has been estimated that one out of five Americans have some type of mental dysfunction.

However, when citizens suffer from ACUTE MENTAL ILLNESS, America's answer should not be homelessness, prison, and death. They emptied our mental institutions into the street, and now lock up people who should have been, would have been hospitalized. This happened mostly during the Reagan administration, and our homeless population has soared!

Where do you think they took that homeless woman who used to sit on the park bench near your job and mumble to herself? To a hospital? THINK AGAIN! She probably DIED IN JAIL, LIKE MY BROTHER. See our story:

http://wrongfuldeathoflarryneal.com

Help us to help the incarcerated mentally ill. Please consider joining Assistance to the Incarcerated Mentally Ill on Care2 at the below link. Advocacy for the mentally ill is all we do. Thanks in advance.

http://www.care2.com/c2c/group/AIMI

Blessings,

Mary

Saturday September 6, 2008, 7:29 pm
Purely disgusting. Thank you Mary!

Saturday September 6, 2008, 7:40 pm
the prisons in this country are not eqquipped to deal with "sane" offender's. And as has been pointed out, they are prinsons not hospitals. last time i was in trouble with the law as they were taking me away my mother asked if they might want some pertanent medical info - no! they cut her off, yelled at here etc.

also, concerning something scott mentioned - he's right that if you're in their custody and you can stay calm and clear as you can otherwise you my be in their custody longer or worse.

noted. thanks mary, and all other as well.

Saturday September 6, 2008, 7:47 pm
Noted & Signed

Saturday September 6, 2008, 7:56 pm
Mary Sticks in a bundle are unbreakable we all need to take a stand this is so very sad. & we all should be angry .The immeasurable human suffering caused by the mass incarceration of the mentally ill is not only inhumane, it is unnecessary.It is a national shame that our prisons and jails serve as mental institutions. It reflects a lack of planning, a failure of public commitment, and a single-minded focus on punishment. The pending legislation represents a saner and more compassionate approach. this news is very chilling ,The Dark Past is still present & much alive .It was some time before institutions were created to care exclusively for the mentally ill. The most significant to the development of mental institutions is the Bethlem Royal Hospital in London. This facility was founded as a religious priory in 1247, known as St. Mary of Bethlem (also spelled "Bethlehem" or "Bedlam"), and like many religious houses of the time, for years it operated a hospice. In 1375, the priory was taken over by King Edward III, and two years later began to take in "lunatics." In 1403, it began to specialize in the care of mental patients, and in 1547, King Henry VIII gave the hospital to the city of London, its charter declaring that it was dedicated exclusively to the care of the insane. By the mid-1600s, one of the early medieval variants of its name, bedlam, became a byword for a place of uproar and confusion. The hospital was virtually the only psychiatric hospital in the country for centuries.

Bridget Franklin writes that, due to the poor understanding of mental illness at the time, patients at Bedlam were considered inhuman, and were treated accordingly: shackled, whipped, kept naked on beds of straw, and fed through the bars of their cages. Furthermore, over time, the hospital became dilapidated and overcrowded, with no division between sexes or classes of illness. In 1675, it moved to Moorfields, London, into the first structure built purposely as a hospital for the insane. It was here that Bedlam became a tourist attraction, where people who paid a penny could observe and provoke "lunatics" for their own amusement. It was not until 1700 that these "lunatics" were finally called "patients.
CALL YOUR SENATORS TODAY!
We all need to take advantage of this opportunity to bring your concerns directly to your elected representatives. Can we truly belive they care ? im having a flash back memory ,
the House Judiciary Committee, Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA) dismissed the torture of prisoners at Guantanamo and other U.S. detention facilities. According to Issa, “we treated our hospital patients worse” than we treat al Qaeda detainees. Former attorney general John Ashcroft chimed in, ISSA: It is sort of amazing that as a member of the permanent Select Intelligence Committee, I’ve never heard any allegation of any detainee being denied food or water for a week. It’s clear that we treated our hospital patients at times worse than al Qaeda. if these top Judiciary Committee knows how Mental Patients are being mistreated you know out senators and Mayer's know the horrors of these institutions. who gives them the right to be The executioners ! Mental Patients have Death penalty & what makes me sick is they have done nothing wrong except to have been born with this disease.Cancelled lives: for those who are doing time in dangerous institutions . the Prisons Director government officials they all have a role the penal system why is this cold chilling behaviour allowed to continue ? Thanks Mary sadly noted .& pass on.

Saturday September 6, 2008, 8:42 pm
This news Frightens, Saddens, and ENRAGES Me; as a Caregiver for a Handicapped Woman Who Was Tortured and Exploited Till She Developed Many Multiple Personalities; by her own Family; For Being Deformed and Because they Thought She was Diminished Capacity; They thought they Could Hide thier crimes; By threatening Her(Sick But they Got away With it) as her Father was a Corrupt Vice Cop with Nazi, KKK Connections; Her Biggest Fear Nowdays is Losing Her Son Due to being Judged Mentaly incompetent (they already tried it once Years ago) or Too Disabled To Care for him.!..So While I would Like To See These criminals Brought to justice or just Removed from the planet; I must restrain My Impulses and Be Here For Her; And others that Deserve Protection and Freedom From Oppression...The Lack of Compassion for the Sick and Insane in this Country is Beyond Criminal and approachiing Genocide...

Saturday September 6, 2008, 9:01 pm
Not that I don't think there are problems with the way people with mental illnesses are treated in prison, because there are... But comparing using pepper spray or tear gas to extract an uncooperative inmate from a cell to the Holocaust? Please... There's no comparison at all.

Saturday September 6, 2008, 9:05 pm
WHAT !! ????????? EVERYONE & ANYONE IS LAWFULLY ALLOWED TO RECEIVE TREATMENT FOR ANY ILLNESS, EVEN INMATES, WHAT IS THIS, ABOUT GAS CHAMBERS ??? WHAT KIND OF JUSTICE SYSTEM IS THIS, THEY ARE KILLERS, HEY !! SOME JUDGES NEED PROZAC, TO CALM DOWN & THINK RIGHT, MAYBE THEY NEED TO BE GASSED......

Saturday September 6, 2008, 9:25 pm
How horrible the way we humans treat one another. Kinda makes you wonder just who the mental ill are ... doesn't it? Not all mental patients are born that way, many are driven to it. Thank you Mary and may you find some answers regarding your brothers death.

Saturday September 6, 2008, 9:43 pm
Jossie,

It's a sensationalist headline that is misleading. There are no gas chambers. What is being talked about is the use of chemical agents such as pepper spray and mace to extract uncooperative prisoners from their cells. The problem is that such methods are being used on mentally challenged prisoners the same way it is used on regular prisoners.

There are no gas chambers, and no prisoners are being gassed to death. That's why I had problem with Holocaust reference as the misleading headline.

Saturday September 6, 2008, 10:06 pm
All they care about is taking anyone who "disrupts" society and warehousing them where no one has to feel uncomfortable and no one has to know or care about what is happening behind those fences and walls. When did humans cease to be humans? Don't be mentally ill in America--it makes people uncomfortable and gives authorities reason to treat you in such a way that you are aware they really wished that you didn't exist--the goal, unfortunately, behind many so called "treatments" also.

Saturday September 6, 2008, 10:44 pm
For those who feel the headline is exaggerated, please know that the mentally ill die as a result of their being handled by law enforcement as opposed to psychiatrists ALL OF THE TIME!

I understand it is hard to believe that the mentally ill are regularly KILLED in America, but they are Tasered to death with regularity, they die in Restraint chairs and other devices to PUNISH THEM INTO A STATE OF HEALTH, and many others are shot with live ammunition. This is not occasional abuse, but usual and ordinary treatment.

I did not know about the negligence and abuse either, until my brother was secretly arrested and died incarcerated in a jail where he had been numerous times before, but which denied having him until for 18 days until he was good and dead. The reason: They were likely sick of his social worker or family members getting him out of jail immediately. THEY PROBABLY WANTED TO TEACH HIM A LESSON! Police are in the business of crime and punishment. Folks who don't or cannot act right get punished. The more the mentally ill don't act "right," the greater the punishment.

Visit the Tim Saunders group here on Care2 and see what was done to Theresa Vaughn's young son. He's dead, like my brother. Did you read about the West Memphis mental patient police chased into a convenience store and while he screamed for folks to help him because they meant to kill him, the police did indeed block the customers' view and proceed to Taser him to death? Please know that the headline is no exaggeration. Consider singer, Sean LeVert. He died after losing consciousness in a Restraint Chair. It is usual and ordinary for mental patients to die in the criminal justice system.

See the RSS Feed from the web on more abuses daily:

http://www.infopig.com/keywords/Mental.html

Visit AIMI online and see my sharebook:

http://www.care2.com/c2c/group/AIMI

I understand that many folks find this news incredible. Who knew? But now you do know, so what will you do about it? Will you help us to help the least of these, His brethren?

Mary Neal
Website: http://wrongfuldeathoflarryneal.com

Sunday September 7, 2008, 12:33 am
totally inhumane chris

Sunday September 7, 2008, 1:29 am
Thank you Mary this realy sounds like holocaust! Time for the people to speak up!

Sunday September 7, 2008, 5:07 am
This is outrageous!

Sunday September 7, 2008, 6:04 am
Holocaust,a large scale destruction of life....Such as the North American variety...60 million North American natives reduced to 800 thousand.Makes the holocaust we are forced to remember seem like a misdemeanor.

Wake Up Save Our Earth and Yourself...Get Conscious...

Redemption=Love,Love,Love of ALL God's creation.

God Save The Queen!Too...

Sunday September 7, 2008, 7:04 am
I have to agree, they are being extinguished because the system considers them useless. Maybe our system is useless? My brother is mentally ill, I would hate to see him treated this way, my God he is human, he is just as fearful and more so than the average man, due to his illness. Of course they react differently, you have to treat them with special care. What the hell is the point of burining chemicals? Tasers used to the point of death? They are being killed rather than treated. America has some horrific and brutal practices.

Sunday September 7, 2008, 7:13 am
Thanks for exposing this story Mary Petitions signed story noted and will begin phone calls Monday!! So Sorry for your loss.

Sunday September 7, 2008, 7:25 am
This is so upsetting, so obscene. It's punishing someone for being ill. They take away everything from them, clothes, bedding so they won't hurt themselves and spray them with chemicals. Doesn't make sense. Guess they just want to do the hurting. These are people that can't fight back, can't defend themselves. The ones that are doing this are the ones that are mentally ill. They're the ones that should be behind bars. What has happened to this world? When did we become uncaring? Where did the compassion go? The mentally ill are swept under the rug because they make others uncomfortable. They are not treated as humans. I didn't know about this treatment, thank you for bringing it to my attention. It scares the heck out of me. My step-mother has Alzhimers she has done things that could hurt her or someone else. My dad had to finally put her in a nursing home. She gets very good treatment there but I can't help thinking that anytime now our government officials could decide to take these people out of nursing homes and take away their "good" treatment. What happenes to the rights of those mentally ill patients? Looks to me like they have no rights. They are locked up like animals. Good heavens, we wouldn't treat an animal that way. How can they do something like this? I agree, there should be three facilities. Yes it would be a great expense. That would be a good use for that $300,000 dollars Mrs. Mccain paid for her dress. This is just too upsetting. Thanks again for the heads up on all this Mary. We are all praying for you. Have faith, God will help you in this. You have many friends here.

Sunday September 7, 2008, 7:30 am
Noted, thanks Mary.

Sunday September 7, 2008, 10:41 am
Noted, thanks Mary, I can't add any more to the comments above except, I agree!!
Love, Mairead

Sunday September 7, 2008, 11:12 am
PLEASE HELP!

** Larry Neal's family is the only American family in the 21st Century to have a member secretly arrested and returned to his family as a corpse without any excuse, apology, explanation, and denied any investigation. There is a petition to the United States Justice Department asking that agency, which was already in an overview position of the jail at the time of Larry's death due to past human rights violations, to please do its job and investigate his secret arrest and demise:

PETITION FOR INVESTIGATION:

http://www.petitiononline.com/Neal/petition.html

Sunday September 7, 2008, 3:19 pm
The imprisoning of the mentally ill is a plague on our society. Personally, I am not convinced that incarceration is real solution for true criminals, either. Certainly, the treatment of the mentally ill is a major issue which deserves our attention, and, having lived twenty-odd years in Florida, I say "good luck."

There is, unfortunately, a major logical flaw in the article I just read which I believe ought to be taken into consideration by anyone wishing to bring change to this systematic mistreatment of the mentally ill. A parallel is attempted between the gassing of the Jews in concentration camps and the "gassing" of the mentally ill in Florida prsions. These two events are absolutely NOT equivallent. The metally ill prisoners are not being killed. There is not a genocide occurring in Florida prisons. There treatment is vile and reprehensible, but they are not being murdered. The use of pepper spray and tear gas is nothing like the use of mustard gas, and likely stems from two causes: 1.) Administrative policy requring the use of "non-leathal pain compliance measures" to deal with a physically aggressive prisoners, and 2.) Overworked, overstressed prison guards who spend all day every day working with the most crimnal and abusive (and least sane) memebers of our society and wanting to just be done with the situation. This is not a defense of their actions. These policies must be examined and appropriately modified. Such ficticious parallels certainly play well in the court of public opinion by evoking strong emotive imagery, but, if that argument is brought to court, it can only weaken the case.

Sunday September 7, 2008, 4:19 pm
It might be more worthwhile if we stopped wringing our hands and started ringing our congressmen.

Sunday September 7, 2008, 7:53 pm
People who are mentally ill should not even be held in prisons, they belong in hospitals where they there should also get proper treatment, not abuse. There is so much wrong with this picture, I could go on and on...

Sunday September 7, 2008, 9:11 pm
Certain detail's may differ, but the essence and idealogy beneath each system (holocaust [big fire]) and incarcerration of the mentally ill by trained killer's, well.

Sunday September 7, 2008, 9:24 pm
Bryon, my dear friend, please don't be bitter. You and I both know that all police personnel and prison guards don't fit that description. Many are compassionate people who want to see the criminalizing of mental illness end.

I have spoken with many officers about this problem, and every one of them agree with me. They feel sorry for the people caught in the system when they should be in jail, but police personnel are not the ones who can change it. Only VOTERS can by letting our legislators know that WE OBJECT!

The prison guards and police officers are caught in a bad situation. It is their jobs to uphold the law, and the laws say imprison the mentally ill with no regard to their health issues. It is a shame.

Some police are being TRICKED into thinking that Tasers don't kill. They hold classes and TEACH officers that it is OK to Taser folks, because if they die, it is not the Tasering that did it.

So we will NOT blame our law officers, except for the individual police officers and guards who take it upon themselves to hurt and kill the incarcerated mentally ill, and those officers who know about the abuse and do nothing but watch.

The other law officers should consider working with us to end this practice. They took their jobs to serve and protect, to catch criminals and keep society safe. They did not sign on to become psychiatric caretakers, and most of them are lousy at the job.

Blessings,

Mary

Sunday September 7, 2008, 9:29 pm
CORRECTION. I meant to write:

I have spoken with many officers about this problem, and every one of them agree with me. They feel sorry for the people caught in the system when THEY SHOULD BE IN HOSPITALS OR RELEASED TO BE TREATED IN THEIR COMMUNITIES, IF THEY COMMITTED NO VIOLENT OFFENSE. But police personnel are not the ones who can change it. Only VOTERS can by letting our legislators know that WE OBJECT!

Besides Voters, people from the international community can help change this practice. Any nation that assigns itself "world police for human rights" perhaps should be reminded of their own failures to protect our sick citizens by the international community. I think it will help our cause.

Blessings,

Mary

Sunday September 7, 2008, 10:03 pm
This is just unconscionable. When will this stupid world realize that mental illness is just another illness. It shouldn't be stigmatized. It should be treated for what it is - an illness. Therefore, those that suffer should be treated, not punished. This is just a disgusting situation.

I read the story, and went to sign the petition, Mary - but I couldn't because I had already signed it. I am so sorry for your loss, and for the lies and omissions from the state. And I am so sorry for Larry.

I hope that you will someday find out the truth. As someone with a family member who has a serious mental illness, I can truly relate. I hope that Florida wakes up and stops violating these peoples' human rights.

Sunday September 7, 2008, 10:17 pm
This is ridiculous. What the article is talking about is the use of tear gas, mace, pepper spray, and the like when an inmate becomes violent and a danger to himself or others. To compare that to the Nazi's practice of gassing concentration camp inmates TO DEATH is ludicrous. The article uses hyperbole to try and confuse the issue. Mental patients are not being killed by gassing. They are not being permanently injured by gassing. Chemical sprays are simply being used when they become violent. And that sounds reasonable to me under certain conditions (when no less painful alternative is available.)

Sunday September 7, 2008, 10:44 pm
Mary I am so glad you have brought this forward! As some of you know my son is in prison and suffers form bipolar the mood swings are terrible and he did consider going to one of the mental facilities.There are not many in Florida and they are all terrible not that any prison is good. Yes prison mental facilities,they have the worst! The care is very BAD.To tell you what they do in Jail,when first arrested my son was suicidal and he was put on suicide watch.Which means Locked in solitary confinement with nothing to eat with your hands! no clothes no bed just a toilet and sink! No doctor no one to talk to no books to read. He had threats so he spent 6 months on solitary before he decided to go to general population. With of hopes no one would find out his charges. He fears for his life! Daily Thanks,Mary!

Monday September 8, 2008, 12:04 am
Mary, I agree that most law enforcement's, co's or otherwise, seem to agree that the situation is out of hand. And I Thank you for the reality check, as it were. xo xo.

I'm just tired of seeing people beat down on the tier for no other reason than that we, the voter's, have not done our part to make sure this nations claims to be the "greatest", when there are so many obvious and quiet acedemic problems.

Still, and many blessing's, I will hold that i prefer liberty to death. And i will still be around, one way or another, to re-iterate that a government that can produce stealth bombers, predator's, etc., can probly do a little more than spraying the mentally ill with any type of gas, pepper spray or otherwise. for example, how about giving these mentally inmate's the readibly availble humane treatments of leading-edge neuro-science, such as medication that would prevent or reduce the number of harmful ideation, as apposed to a lung full of peper spray.

I know my co's. if i sound bitter, please know that it is not bitterness, per se, it is that i've run up against so many ignorant individulges that have little or no exp. concerning the issue(s) at hand and it's hard to understand, after awhile, how they justify these actions.

thanx again for "realing me in", as it were. w/love
bry'

Monday September 8, 2008, 4:00 am
Bryon, I fully understand how easy it is to have bad feelings toward those who seem to propagate the abuse to mentally ill people. But the people we actually see arresting the mentally ill are not the ones who made the laws or can change them. Just as you say, many law officers recognize the situation is unjust and inhumane. Hopefuly, more police officers who object to criminalizing mental illness will come forward and help.

We need your help, police officers! We need you to join AIMI and speak against the abusive criminalization of mental illness. You know better than any of us how badly jail affects people who are already sick. Jail is stressful even for people who are supposedly sane.

I say "supposedly" sane, because it has been estimated that one in five Americans suffers from some type of mental dysfunction. It is probably one of the most common maladies on earth! Yet, those who have mental health issues are often ASHAMED and STIGMATIZED for their problems.

Well, the time has ended for that! Some of our most talented and intelligent people have also had mental health issues. Elvis Presley was diagnosed as being bipolar. Congressman Kennedy is bipolar. Brittany Speers has mental health issues. Some of our greatest and most renoun scientists were struggling with mental dysfunctions. Many of our veterans are returning home finding it hard to adjust due to PTSD. MENTAL ILLNESS IS A VERY, VERY COMMON PROBLEM!

Speak out, people! Tell us about your relatives. Tell us about your own struggle with depression, phobias, etc. LET US WORK TOGETHER TO DESTROY THE STIGMA ATTACHED TO MENTAL ILLNESS.

There was a time when folks who were abused were quiet and ASHAMED OF BEING VICTIMS! But then they began to speak out on television, in books, in the courts. Because they dared to speak, now victims of domestic violence and child abuse have more help. We can do the same for mental illness, too.

This is a major human rights issue -- jailing folks for having a disability!

We count on you to please OBJECT!

Blessings,

Mary

Monday September 8, 2008, 4:40 am
This is nothing less than sadistic and human cruelty. And yet not a word on it from the Media. It`s probably a corporate run prison. We all need to learn the name of the warden and write he and the Governor a letter expressing our disgust.
Scott Jason Miller
NENYPatientAdvocacyTeam@verizon.net
PatientAdvocacy@care2.com

Monday September 8, 2008, 7:00 am
The issue is the use of chemical sprays on mentally-ill prisoners who become violent and need to be restrained in some way. Not the entire mental health system or the general treatment of these people.

Why is it that I'm not seeing other people objecting to the fact that this is being compared to Nazi Germany's extermination of people by gassing? It isn't the same thing!

Everyone is so intent on getting on their little bandwagon that they are ignoring the issue at hand. Do all of you really believe that using pepper spray on a violent inmate is the equivalent of shoving hundreds of thousands (or millions) of Jews, Poles, political prisoners, and other people into gas chambers in concentration camps? I really would appreciate an answer to my question.

Monday September 8, 2008, 8:19 am
LINDSEY O'CONNER,

Please tell me, do you work for the Prisons? For the Government? For Taser manufacturers? For the company that sells the prisons GAS to do this to mental patients?

You can go and tell all those folks that THIS ABUSE IS ALMOST OVER!

WE WILL NOT TOLERATE YOUR INCARCERATING OUR MOST VULNERABLE CITIZENS ANY LONGER! They WILL be relocated to safe, decent mental health facilities. Those who are not violent WILL be released into their communities for treatment, enforced treatment if necessary, because many folks are too ashamed of the stigma attached to mental illness to seek treatment on their own.

TELL THE GAS MANUFACTURERS TO GET A NEW PRODUCT. THIS IS ALMOST OVER NOW.

I hate to sound like Governor Palin and George Bush, but I'm telling you now, GOD SENT ME FOR THIS WORK AND IT IS HIS BATTLE AND HE SAID "LET MY PEOPLE GO!!" It is a done deal already. PEOPLE KNOW NOW, thanks to independent Internet news sites like Care2NewsNetwork, NowPublic.com, IntegrityNow.org, BlogTalkRadio, YahooGroups, OpEdNews.com, and others.

YOU LOST ALREADY! IT IS ALL MOST OVER. YOU MIGHT AS WELL GO AND INVEST IN SOME MENTAL HOSPITALS, BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT MAKE MONEY FOR YOUR PRIVATIZED PRISONS OFF THE IMPRISONMENT OF MENTAL PATIENTS VERY MUCH LONGER.

AIMI endorses no particular candidates or party for office, but please know that SENATOR BIDEN is a great mental health advocate, and he is running for VP with Sen. Obama. Personally, I hope they win. But even if they don't, mental patients will escape your greedy graspe in privatized prisons. I PROMISE YOU!

STOP THE INSANITY! LET THE MENTAL PATIENTS GET TREATED AND NOT PUNISHED FOR THEIR ILLNESS!

Mary Neal
Assistance to the Incarcerated Mentally Ill
http://www.Care2.com/c2c/group/AIMI

Monday September 8, 2008, 8:40 am
Human Rights Activists, do you see what we are up against?

Folks think it is OK to IMPRISON MENTAL PATIENTS AND GAS THEM, saying the gas does not kill them. Folks also are saying Tasering folks does not kill them, either. They only DIE because they get excited when ELECTROCUTED. Can you beat that? YES, WE CAN AND WE WILL BEAT IT!

HOW MUCH GAS WOULD BE ENOUGH TO KILL THE PATIENTS? Do they gas them once a week? Are mental patients in Florida's prisons gassed daily to make them "act right"? Are they sometimes gassed SEVERAL TIMES DAILY, if they fail to get their acts together and "ACT NORMAL"???

HOW MUCH GAS IS TOXIC? Does it build up in their systems? The government is so concerned about folks smoking, but yet it gasses our mental patients!

I AM SICK OF THE HYPOCRISY, AND I HOPE MY FELLOW CARE2 MEMBERS ARE, TOO. Please help with this advocacy. Please help the least of these, His brethren. If you are reading this, God intends you to help. You know it, and I know it. Please do something.

Here is a good place to start:

Please contact your congressional representative today and demand that hospitalization replace incarceration for the mentally ill people in your state.

WRITE YOUR REPRESENTATIVES ~~~~~~~~ http://www.house.gov/writerep

Even if you are not Americans, write anyway! Tell them you in the international community cannot believe that a nation so concerned about human rights would do something like this!

Then, please join us. Just by having your name on the roll, you show you CARE, Care2 members: http://www.Care2.com/c2c/group/AIMI

Thanks in advance on behalf of all those mentally ill prisoners and their worried families and friends.

Mary Neal
Website: http://wrongfuldeathoflarryneal.com

Monday September 8, 2008, 10:09 am
No, Mary, I do not work for the government. Or Taser manufacturers. Or the state. Or the prison system. I work as a paralegal in a law firm which handles family law. The only criminal work that we do is to defend DUI defendants and the attorney I work for (he is a sole practitioner and there is only one attorney here) doesn't do any work for the state, the federal government, the prison systems, taser manufacturers, gas manufacturers, etc. In fact, he is a very liberal Democrat. I'm not.

There are two issues: using pepper spray, etc. when a criminally-incarcerated mental patient is violent is VERY, VERY different than gassing concentration camp inmates to death. That is my first point. How can anyone begin to compare the genocide that happened during the reign of Nazism to using pepper spray, etc. to subdue violent inmates? If you have a problem with using those things - fine. But don't compare it to the Holocaust - that's hyperbolic in the extreme. And illogical.

As I said before, I think that less painful methods should be utilized when possible. BUT, when something more is needed, then I have no problem using chemical sprays to stop violent people from hurting themselves or others. Just because someone is mentally-ill doesn't mean that we need to overlook the fact that their actions can physically harm others (or themselves.)

Monday September 8, 2008, 11:15 am
Would "less painful" be anything like a mental HOSPITAL, maybe? Would it be anything like a SEDATIVE - either by pill or hyperdermic needle? Would it be something like a rubber room and STRAIGHT JACKET, where mental patients who are out of control used to be placed to wear themselves out safely?

And to clarify, by GAS, the writer was not speaking of pepper spray, but actual gas in the form of TEAR GAS.

I am not surprised that you are not a Democrat. None of that liberal stuff like hospitals for sick people ever crosses your mind, does it?

Mary Neal
Assistance to the Incarcerated Mentally Ill

Monday September 8, 2008, 11:26 am
Mary, you simply aren't looking at this logically. How can you give a pill or a hypodermic injection to a patient who is violent and fighting? The only way to do that would be to physically subdue him first - and that's why they sometimes have to use gas. (Of course, if they jumped him and wrestled him to the ground, he could be seriously injured - and then many liberals like you would criticize them for physically assaulting him.) THINK - if you have someone who is violent you have to have a way to subdue him AT A DISTANCE. Pills and syringes can't do that. Gas can. It's about the only thing which can. And sometimes they HAVE to use tear gas. Again, it's about distance. To use pepper spray or Mace you have to be quite close to the person. Sometimes that isn't safe. The safety of the doctors, nurses, orderlies, and others also matters to me - and it should matter to you as well if you care as much about people as you say.

And, don't make assumptions about me unless you know something about the subject. Do you really think that only registered Democrats care about people? Of course I care about mentally-ill people. However, if they commit criminal acts they need to be incarcerated in a secure mental wing of a prison facility. They have already proven they are violent by committing the crime which got them there in the first place. They should not be in the general prison population - they should be in the mental ward. And when and if they are deemed to no longer be a danger to themselves or others they should be released.

You seem to think everything is black and white. If you're a liberal Democrat you care about people. If you're a Republican (or a Libertarian like me) you don't care about people. People are individuals, Mary, and we all have individual ideas. And there can be honest differences of opinion about the best way to help people. Some think that welfare payments are best for people. I think that making able-bodied people get a job and support themselves is best for people. Whether or not you agree with me - my beliefs are based upon what I think works best, both for the individual and for society. That is kindness in my book - after all, "tough love" is an accepted standard when dealing with people who won't help themselves despite their ability to do so. And it is love, no matter how cruel it may seem to people who don't agree with it.

Monday September 8, 2008, 12:07 pm
Psychiatric caretakes subdued people successfully and gave them shots or put them in straight jackets for many decades before Ronald Reagan, probably your hero, turned many thousands of folks out of mental institutions to become the nation's homeless and warm bodies for privatized prisons, Lindsey.

And here is something that ought to impress people like you -- it was MUCH CHEAPER TO HOSPITALIZE PEOPLE than it is to take them through the court process, incarcerate, AND minimally treat them, supplying them with specially trained guards (sometimes) and paying HUGE lawsuits for the MANY mental patients who are either killed by police during arrest attempts or in prison restraint devices and by Taser.

Hope you have enough money saved to avoid the cycle of homelessness, prison, and death that is waiting for you or one of your close family members if there is an accident today that results in brain damage, Lindsey. Hope neither of your parents or grandparents ever suffers from old age dementia. They treat the elderly, demented people the same way.

Glad you responded. I always thought, until our discourse, that the right-wingers did not understand fully that folks were suffering and dying in prisons for being disabled. Now I understand that it is just that you probably feel that is exactly where they belong.

I would not be surprised if the truly RELIGIOUS among them believe that the mentally ill are possessed by demons and that prison is fit punishment for those who are possessed.

LOVE is gassing someone? I guess bombing the heck out of a country to "save" the people makes sense to you, also.

Mary Neal

Monday September 8, 2008, 12:08 pm
God wants man to fulfill his commands as a human being and with the quality peculiar to human beings,

Monday September 8, 2008, 12:08 pm
Scott is right, while they have you in their custody if you are not extremely careful about anything you say or do - you're in for trouble. I have PTSD and have been in the hospital twice. Both times, "for my own good" yet I came out in worse shape than when I went in and if I had not been extremely careful God only knows what else would have happened to me. I am not even going to say what did. I felt lucky to get out with my life and my sanity intact, seriously. Yes, they do kill people in prison and also in mental institutions - all the time. Many different methods of abuse are used and chemical sprays should never be used. Don't think it hurts? Get some and spray your eyes with it regularly, better yet find someone who has a hostile attitude towards you that scares you so badly that you are in fear of your life and have them spray you with it, along with whatever else abuse they can dish out at the same time. Maybe this will give you a reality check. Probably not, because you know you are not really in danger, but maybe it would at least give you the beginning of a clue. There are medications that can calm a person down, regardless of their behavior. Unfortunately, nobody ever wants to prescribe the right meds that might not cure the illness but would provide some comfort from the symptoms of it. This would just be too easy. These aren't the type of drugs they like to hand out. Might be habit forming (like it would matter??!!). People depend on drugs for their heart trouble or diabetes or high cholesterol and their body needs them, so what is the difference? I also spent fifteen years working in a hospital and I know very well what goes on there that shouldn't. It was a government institution, by the way. People in mental institutions are not even looked at as being human beings but are treated like some type of lowly subhuman alien creature, with disdain and disrespect. I know people who have been incarcerated and have heard horror stories about what goes on in prison. Worse than even the mental institutions. I will not repeat what I have heard but it is worse than even what Mary is describing, which is pretty bad. Stress is a big factor here. Stress kills. What Mary is describing yes could very well lead to death. It would be hard enough on someone without any type of mental handicap, but combined with the stress of having to deal with a mental illness, this type of abuse which you think is so insignificant could definitely lead to death. This happens much more often than most people know. It isn't usually on the evening news. What is happening is bad and it is on a large scale. It needs to end. People with mental illness have no place in prison. They do not belong there. Unfortunately, mental institutions are not so great either. While I was there, I hardly ever saw any medical personnel. It was just a lockdown with very little treatment and practically no supervision. You were at the mercy of other patients or an aide or desk clerk who couldn't have cared less what went on. When and if you saw the doctor, they were no help either. There seemed to be more of a research aspect going on than any interest at all in helping the patient. Abuse, if anything. It was just like the old movie that Jack Nicholson played in where he was in a mental institution. It was just exactly like it, or worse. So much needs to change. I am afraid though that I don't have much faith in the government to do anything about it because I believe they are perpetrators in what is going on. They are responsible for a good deal of it. Many of you I am sure are aware of Sheldon Johnson's brother who died due to abuse by the system. This is real. This is REAL. It is not something that used to happen or rarely happens or has been exaggerated in any way. It's happening now, yes, here in America - all the time. Most people who have been victimized are too ashamed or scared to say anything about it. Change needs to happen, this is for sure but it will take more than talking to your congressman. He'll tell you what you want to hear and go on with business as usual afterwards, generally. This is what politicians do best. Laws need to be enacted to protect patients and inmates both. These facilities need to be overseen, regulated and inspected. This would take a movement and an awareness that is not big enough at this point in time to accomplish the deed, but if more people would wake up to this, it could happen. A good percentage of the prison population probably shouldn't even be locked up at all. It is so ironic who manages to get let out of prison and who they keep there too. Is anybody paying attention? We have more people incarcerated per capita than any other nation on the planet. There is something wrong with this picture. Hello?!

Monday September 8, 2008, 12:17 pm
I bet Lindsey doesn't find anything wrong with the fact that one out of every 134 Americans is behind bars, including the fact that around 30% or more of the incarcerees have some type of mental illness.

Mary

Monday September 8, 2008, 12:22 pm
The power of the lawyer is in the uncertainty of the law ?

Monday September 8, 2008, 12:22 pm
Bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki ended WWII in the Pacific, thereby saving not only hundreds of thousands of American soldiers' lives but probably millions of Japanese as well. Bombing Germany certainly helped end the war in Europe, thereby again saving uncounted lives of American soldiers. Why don't we ask the Jews and others who were in concentration camps in Germany and other areas whether they approved of the Allied bombing which ended the war and freed them.

And, no - I don't think that the "disabled" belong in prison. I never said that or anything like that (being disabled can mean an incredibly large number of conditions - why would you say that I believed a person in a wheelchair should be in prison????) I believe that mentally-ill people who commit crimes should be in the MENTAL WARD PORTION of the prison - until they are cured, when they need to be released. Since they committed crimes while mentally ill the state has to make sure they don't do it again - and the mental ward of a prison is a heck of a lot more secure than a private hospital.

If you'd stop using such ridiculous and overblown language and such angry and nonsensical arguments people would be more likely to listen to you, even if they don't agree with you. And just because someone doesn't believe the same as you do doesn't make them evil, stupid, uncaring, or anything else of the kind. It simply means that they don't see the world the same way as you do. There can be people of good faith and intent on both sides of most issues - and all you do is alienate them with the kind of language you use.

And, by the way, I'm atheist - so I don't believe in demons inhabiting anyone.

Monday September 8, 2008, 12:33 pm
Mary said, "I bet Lindsey doesn't find anything wrong with the fact that one out of every 134 Americans is behind bars, including the fact that around 30% or more of the incarcerees have some type of mental illness."

So, once again, Mary - an ad hominem attack. And another assumption about someone when you know absolutely nothing about their views on the subject. Why would you think that I don't care that so many people are in prison or that many of them have mental illnesses? Just because I believe that doctors, nurses, orderlies, and the like have the right to subdue violent patients using gas if that's the way to best protect the doctors, orderlies, and nurses from harm (and others) - that and that alone means that I am an uncaring monster who doesn't give a damn about people?

Your statements clearly show that you simply do not understand how to evaluate a situation or an argument. All you know how to do is to make ugly and unsubstantiated attacks on people who don't agree with you, no matter how politely they state their disagreement. I have tried to be rational and courteous and to fully explain my position as best I can. And all I get are ridiculous attacks on my character - when you have absolutely no knowledge of who I am or what I believe in.

Yes, I care about people in jail. Some of them are innocent and shouldn't be there. Some of them are mentally ill and should be in the hospital portion of the prison. And many, many of them are purely and simply criminals who chose to commit crimes for which they were punished. When you do the crime - you do the time. I assume that if I steal from you or stab you with a knife you would choose to have me prosecuted and put in prison, wouldn't you (since, of course, I'm not mentally ill).

Monday September 8, 2008, 12:45 pm
No society has been able to abolish human sadness, no political system can deliver us from the pain of living, from our fear of death, our thirst for the absolute. It is the human condition that directs the social condition, not vice versa .

Monday September 8, 2008, 12:52 pm
Lindsy, you have already made yourself clear that you regard the mentally ill as requiring "tough love" and that you find gassing mentally ill prisoners an "accepted standard when dealing with people who WON'T HELP THEMSELVES DESPITE THEIR ABILITY TO DO SO."

So just like some of the more aggressive prison guards who guard these unfortunate people, you apparently believe they simply REFUSE TO "ACT RIGHT," because they "WON'T HELP THEMSELVES." These are your words, Lindsey, not anything I fabricated that you said.

NEWSFLASH: Prisons are not natural land formations. Prisons are built! Hospitals can be and should be built with secure wards for folks who absolutely need containment, as some acute mental patients do indeed require.

Do you realize what the NATION'S PRISON BUDGET is, Lindsey? Here is an excerpt from an attorney who suggested a book to read: Prison Nation: The Warehousing of America's Poor

"Locking up 2.3 million people isn’t cheap.

Each year federal, state, and local governments spend over $185 BILLION ANNUALLY IN TAX DOLLARS to ensure that one out of every 137 Americans is imprisoned. Prison Profiteers looks at the private prison companies, investment banks, churches, guard unions, medical corporations, and other industries and individuals that benefit from this country’s experiment with mass imprisonment. It lets us follow the money from public to private hands and exposes how monies formerly designated for the public good are diverted to prisons and their maintenance."

Please realize, Lindsey, that "mentally ill people who commit crimes" and wind up imprisoned include lots of people who were arrested for simple vagrancy, tresspassing, and panhandling. They get arrested for one thing, and then sometimes they are kept there for years on misdemeanors. Some are kept without hearings for a very long time. Some are arrested on what they call "lunacy warrants" and detained indefinitely just for being sick.

I do appreciate your responses, Lindsey. This is an opportunity to converse with someone who truly does not understand the issue, I perceive.

Thank you for commenting. Our dialog is very useful in my understanding what we face to change things and get these sick people out of prison.

Mary

Monday September 8, 2008, 12:53 pm
I completely agree with you Nevaeh. There has never been a society throughout the history of mankind where abuses, injustices, horrors, and the like have not happened on a regular basis. "Civilization" has only been around the tiniest fraction of time when compared to the whole of human existence. Since the beginning of life on this earth, our ancestors (whether hominid or pre-hominid) lived by different rules - the rules needed to survive in a kill-or-be-killed world. Civilization as we know it has only been around less than 10,000 years. And that simply isn't enough time to change basic human nature and to undo millions upon millions of years of imprinting (if it ever will be possible to completely change human nature.) All we can do is try. And it is primarily up to the individual - unless one is truly mentally ill and unable to control his actions, each individual has the ability to decide to do right - or to do wrong. It's called free will. And if you do wrong - then you should be punished by society.

Monday September 8, 2008, 1:02 pm
Mary, I NEVER advocated "tough love" for mentally ill people or said they "wouldn't help themselves." I quote what I said, ""tough love" is an accepted standard when dealing with people who won't help themselves despite their ability to do so." Obviously mentally-ill people don't have the ability to help themselves. How on earth could you misinterpret what I said? No one would ever say that mentally-ill people are capable of helping themselves (if the illness is severe enough, of course). That would be like saying that a person who was paralyzed should be able to walk if they REALLY tried. Again, you just have to find way to go on the attack, don't you? Even if you have to misinterpret what people say.

Monday September 8, 2008, 1:10 pm
And you said "that you [Lindsey] find gassing mentally ill prisoners an "accepted standard when dealing with people who WON'T HELP THEMSELVES DESPITE THEIR ABILITY TO DO SO." I never said that either. As you'll see above, I made no mention of "gassing" people when making that statement. I said that "tough love is an accepted standard when dealing with people who won't help themselves despite their ability to do so." Where in that did I mention gassing? And, again, I'm talking about people who refuse to take care of themselves - not people who can't, such as the seriously mentally-ill.

Monday September 8, 2008, 1:28 pm
One thing I haven't addressed that has been brought up several times - the inadequate care given to patients in prison mental wings and state institutions. There is no question that they are given inadequate care, sometimes seriously inadequate. But really good care costs money. A lot of money.

AIDS advocates want lots of taxpayer money spent on AIDS research and care because it will save lives. Breast cancer advocates want lots of taxpayer money spent on breast cancer research and care because it saves lives. Diabetes activists want lots of taxpayer money spent on diabetes research and care because it saves lives. Environmentalists want lots of taxpayer money spent on environmental matters because it will save the planet. Planned Parenthood wants lots of taxpayer money spent on preventing unwanted pregnancies. Animal activists want lots of taxpayer money spent on helping animals, building shelters, and the like. I could go on and on.

There are so many things in life which are poorly funded. People die because there isn't enough money for adequate research or care. People are homeless because there isn't enough money to take care of all of them. Children live in bad foster homes because there isn't enough money to take care of them. All sorts of bad things are happening in the world - BECAUSE THERE ISN'T ENOUGH MONEY TO GO AROUND.

How much more do you think the average taxpayer can take?

Monday September 8, 2008, 1:34 pm
Lindsey, you should go down to the nearest courthouse and put your name on the ballot for some political office! You do not seem to like your words when they are quoted back to you, so then you deny that you meant it "that way."

Lindsey, we have ONLY been discussing the INCARCERATED MENTALLY ILL. At least, that is what the article is about;

Those are the people who are being gassed;

Those are the people we are discussing who are incarcerated rather than hospitalized or receiving treatment in their communities.

Now, it would appear that you do not like your own statements that they should have "tough love," and your implications that gassing mental patients in jail is not so bad. So you now imply that you meant someone other than the mentally ill.

Strange.

Lindsey, you said, and I quote: "Just because I believe that doctors, nurses, orderlies, and the like have the right to subdue violent patients using gas if that's the way to best protect the doctors, orderlies, and nurses from harm (and others) - that and that alone means that I am an uncaring monster who doesn't give a damn about people?"

What type of prison environment for the mentally ill are you imagining, Lidnsey?

These mental patients seldom, if ever, see a doctor, let alone orderlies and nurses!

They are GASSED BY PRISON GUARDS AND POLICE PERSONNEL, who are wrongfully charged with keeping order in the psych ward at the jails, equipped only with the traditional riot equipment: Tasers, night sticks, tear gas, mace, pepper spray, handcuffs, chains, and guns.

Please get a more realistic view of what PRISON means, Lindsey.

Thanks for conversing with me on this issue.

Mary

Monday September 8, 2008, 1:46 pm
Again, I specifically said that about "people who WON'T help themselves despite their ability to do so." Again - do you believe that mentally ill people have the ability to help themselves in that regard and just choose to be mentally ill? If not, then I obviously wasn't talking about them. And to say so is sheer idiocy.

Monday September 8, 2008, 2:58 pm
Well, I am surprised, but . . .

perhaps you misunderstood the subject matter of this article.

Monday September 8, 2008, 3:08 pm
Lindsey, before leaving this interesting conversation, I would like to reiterate one point.

You wrote, "People die because there isn't enough money for adequate research or care."

May I remind you of where the money to hospitalize the incarcerated mentally ill or treat them as out-patients should come from? It is ALREADY in the budget. See the quote below:

"Locking up 2.3 million people isn’t cheap.

Each year federal, state, and local governments spend over $185 BILLION ANNUALLY IN TAX DOLLARS to ensure that one out of every 137 Americans is imprisoned."

Blessings,

Mary

Monday September 8, 2008, 3:21 pm
I did not misunderstand the subject matter of this thread, Mary. Like with just about any thread on this site, people go off issue when an interesting side issue presents itself. We have discussed prison inmates in general, the fact that one out of so many Americans are incarcerated, the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and various other matters.

In any event, enough said. Frankly, the discussion no longer interests me.

Monday September 8, 2008, 4:07 pm
@ Lindsey

As I pointed out in a previous post, the article in question was specifically created to engender an almost reflexive emotional reaction. In such a situation, it is nearly impossible to bring logic to bear on the responses and is often more profitable easier to deal tangentially with the issue. More specifically, since the response is emotional, a logical defense is not possible, so, attention is turned to related issues which can be defended/attacked logically. For my part, I made a point very similar to yours but chose not to argue further. I simply enjoy watching how the discourse emerges. I do appreciate the careful thought and communicative skill you have brought to the discussion.

At the risk of going farther off thread in this discussion, I am curious to hear your thoughts on a certain perspective of prisons vs. mental health care.

You rightly point out that many mentally ill individuals are incarcerated for lack of funding to do anything else with them. What are your thoughts on the role of incarceration in general? Is it right and/or effective to simply corral all those who act outside the bounds of polite society in one place only to release them back into the general populace at the end of their sentence (or when space/funding runs out)? Is there a more appropriate way to deal with those who disrupt the productive function of our community?

Here I think there is an appropriate parallel to certain events in WWII Germany. At one point, the Germans decided to lock up all those Allied prisoners who proved intractable in their escape attempts in a single prison. This resulted in some of the most innovative, intelligent, and daring schemes ever developed. They actually built a working glider; however, Allied forces were able to free them before they made use of it. What great and creative criminal schemes are hatching now in these institutions of higher larceny we've created by putting all our offenders in communities of their own kind?

My thought is that possibly--just possibly--if funding were diverted from the ever-popular idea of "lock them up and throw away the key", not only would would we disrupt the self-perpetuating criminal education and networking centers we call prisons, but those genuinely in need of assistance may actually receive it. Of course convincing the community at large and diverting the societal inertia we have developed on these issues are matters I do not know how to address effectively.

P.S.

Though I wrote this post with Lindsey in mind, I would like everyone to feel welcome in responding.

Monday September 8, 2008, 4:10 pm
Mary, I think the treatment of the mentally ill, in general as well as part of the prison system, is a very important issue and I am very sorry for your loss. I also find it disgusting that the authorities aren't more forthcoming with information on the death. My thoughts are with you.

Please try to understand this, though. I don't find fault with some of what Lindsey has said. When I first saw your post I thought that you were saying that Florida had a gas chamber that they were systematically sending mentally ill patients to for the sole intention of rounding them up and killing them. I had to read the entire post until I understood exactly what happened and what the procedures were that the state was employing.

The hyperbole about Hitler and Nazis is not a direct correlation and is extreme. While I understand your hurt and anger and think it is totally justified, I think you would do yourself a better service to accurately state what is going on in our prisons from the beginning of your argument, instead employing overused 'Nazi' rhetoric where it doesn't apply.

Monday September 8, 2008, 4:27 pm
Kate, my dear friend, thank you for your comments.

I did not write the article, I quoted from it.

"Lawyers for the inmates plan to argue that GASSING CONFINED MENTALLY ILL INMATES FOR THEIR BEHAVIOR caused by their illness is cruel and unusual punishment. They . . ."

This is the language of the imprisoned mentally ill patients' attorneys.

I truthfully draw many correlations between the incarcerated metally ill and the Jews during the Holocaust, Kate. Both groups are persecuted and systematically removed from society, deprived of home and hearth. Neither the Jews nor many of the acutely mentally ill in prison today could help the circumstances that caused their isolation and gassing.

Both the Holocaust Jews and mentally ill detainees in American prisons suffer violence and cruelty at the hands of a system that turns a blind eye to their pain. And if they protest too loudly in jail, they are often actually KILLED. If you need proof, see my sharebook, and see the articles on NowPublic.com - just put my name in their search field. Also, see the RSS feed on my host share site at AIMI. They die with alarming regularity by Taser, Restraint Chair, and live ammo.

So although it sounds cruel and incredible, it is all true. And I ask you, how much tear gas do the mentally ill patients suffer? Daily? Weekly? How much would it take to be sufficiently toxic to meet your standards of dangerous and potentially deadly? What of the asthmatic mentally ill? Would it take less to kill them?

Is the fact that people are still alive the only essential thing? Do you realize they are often held naked and alone, in solitary confinement up to 23 hours a day?

Think about these things, and please visit my page and AIMI for more information, as well as my articles on Care2.

Thanks.

Mary

Monday September 8, 2008, 4:35 pm
Nora, I enjoyed reading your post. And you make a great many good points.

First, I would like to see many "crimes" decriminalized. Although I personally disapprove of prostitution and drug use, I believe that people have the right to engage in those activities (so long as the participants are adults, of course - and certainly no child porn which is an abomination.) Decriminalizing these things, especially drug use and sales, would overwhelmingly decrease the prison population in and of itself. And if prostitution and drug sales were made legal they would also bring in additional tax revenues. And would reduce ancillary crime since the price of drugs would immediately decrease dramatically and fewer addicts would feel the need to steal to support their habits. And organized crime would no longer be involved, which would also decrease the crime rate.

I do not believe that drug addicts should be treated as criminals just because of their addiction alone. I may consider them stupid in the extreme for ever trying drugs and getting hooked; however, stupidity isn't a criminal offense. Treatment is the answer: long-term inpatient treatment with enrollment in an outpatient program afterwards.

I also believe in "creative" punishments for lesser offenses. I once saw where a judge sentenced a female shoplifter to an unusual punishment: standing outside the store she victimized for several days while holding a sign stating that she was a thief. Nothing in this world would induce me to shoplift if I thought that would be the punishment - I would rather spend time in jail than to have the public humiliation that woman experienced.

I also believe in community service for some non-violent crimes - but not as it is practiced today where the criminal (at least in my area) gets to choose which charity he wishes to work with. I would put the to work (and work HARD) at things like cleaning up trash along the roadside, cleaning out cages at the humane society, and doing other things that were hard, dirty, and unpleasant. And the community service hours would be high in number.

For me, restitution is one of the biggest concerns. So often people are sentenced to jail, community service, etc. - but they don't always have to make full restitution to their victims. I think a criminal who, say, stole $1,000 from someone should have to repay double that amount to the victim. That might make a few criminals think twice about stealing.

I think that some criminals do deserve to go to prison; however, I would keep non-violent criminals segregated from the violent ones. And I would require that all inmates have to work six days a week, eight hours a day at a job inside the prison, primarily to make money to repay the system for their care. Inmates shouldn't be allowed just to sit around and that's what happens in many cases. They should also be required to take educational courses and work towards a degree, if possible.

I do believe in the death penalty - but only for criminals whose guilt has been established beyond a shadow of a doubt (beyond a reasonable doubt just isn't enough.) By that I mean where the crime was caught on tape, or the criminal was caught in the act, or there was a confession backed up by a tremendous amount of physical evidence. No innocent person should ever be executed and that has definitely happened any number of times.

And I would have child molesters aways sentenced for life in prison. I honestly don't think that child molesters can control their behavior unless they are surgically castrated - and if they agreed to that perhaps their sentences could be lighter.

And I would make the laws against animal abuse and neglect much, much stronger and the punishments much harsher. People who abuse animals are the lowest of the low - and I've seen studies which state that all serial killers started out their "careers" by torturing animals. Once you learn that you can get away with harming the weakest members of our society eventually you graduate to harming humans. (Frankly, on this subject I'm not entirely rational - I personally would like to see them drawn and quartered or burned at the stake - I LOATHE animal abuse.)

The most important thing it to prevent crime by working with troubled children. If we can reform the foster care system and the educational system and everything else to do with children's needs, I believe that would go a long way towards decreasing the prison population.

Monday September 8, 2008, 4:46 pm
Continuation:

Regarding mental health care, Nora, I do believe that mentally-ill people who break the law should not be held criminally liable for their conduct. They should be sent to a mental health facility attached to a prison (I say that because I honestly don't think that a private facility would be as well equipped security-wise and also would be more expensive.) Ideally, of course, they would receive the best care available; however, we all know that isn't going to happen. But we just have to do the best we can.

I do think that too many non-violent mentally-ill people are sent to those places and I would think that there are better alternatives for them; however, I don't know much about the subject and don't know what those alternatives might be.

It is a tragedy. And unfortunately we have to balance their welfare against the welfare of society. I do realize that many people with mental illnesses are not dangerous to others; however, many are. And, even though they aren't legally responsible for their actions, that doesn't matter - the damage they do still happens. And we have to keep society safe from that damage.

Monday September 8, 2008, 4:58 pm
Nora, you inquire about the funding for hospitals or outpatient treatment, and invite discourse. Therefore, I offer this suggestion:

"Locking up 2.3 million people isn’t cheap.

Each year federal, state, and local governments spend over $185 BILLION ANNUALLY IN TAX DOLLARS to ensure that one out of every 137 Americans is imprisoned.

THE MONEY NEEDED FOR HOSPITALS AND TREATMENT IS ALREADY BEING SPENT ON THE MENTALLY ILL INMATES -- MUCH MORE THAN WOULD BE NEEDED FOR HOSPITALS AND TREATMENT.

If anyone asks about money after this, I suppose it may be because you deliberately choose to misunderstand. It costs LESS to treat, not more.

Thank you everyone for responding.

Blessings,

Mary

Monday September 8, 2008, 5:02 pm
And, Nora - speaking of "creative punishments" - they really do work. When I was a child whenever I did something particularly heinous my mother developed the most wonderful punishment: she took away my books. Every last book had to be packed up in boxes and locked away in the attic for a specified period of time. Of course, I countered that by spending a lot of time at the library. When she realized that she started not only locking up my books but grounding me as well so I couldn't get to the library. I very quickly learned that virtually nothing was worth risking that punishment. I can't live without my books.

Monday September 8, 2008, 5:20 pm
A few years before he died, my grandfather, in a state of agition brought on by alzhiemers/dementia tried to kill me with a screw driver. We called a local agancy that works very closely with the local police dept.

The fire dept., the police, and medical personel were called in. out of all of these people one calm and well trained officer walked over to my grandfather and began talking to him. he just talked, in that calm voice. before you new what had happenned he had got my grampa to agree to see a m.d. at a local hospital.

this officer approached a man suffering delusions, agitation, and bearing weapons, a man suffering from a highly emotive state of violent and harmful agitation. and the officer talked to him, that's all. no tazer, no pepper spray and no logos.

after that we were able to get my grandfather the care we had known he needed, finally.

Monday September 8, 2008, 5:23 pm
Sorry to keep on about this - but I keep thinking of things I left out:

I would also do away with all of the "three strikes" laws. Stupid, stupid idea in the first place and terribly unfair.

I would change the way Judges are elected - no judge would be allowed to run on a party ticket and would be forbidden from advertising his party affiliation. Politics has no place in the judicial system.

And prosecutors need to be reined in. All too often they are concerned merely with getting a "win", whether or not the defendant is guilty. I have personally experienced that in working in the legal field for over 20 years. Any prosecutor who knowingly convicted a person through withholding evidence, supressing witness statements, and the like should be imprisoned for an extremely long sentence.

I would change the jury system to have professional jurors. I do not believe that in many cases jurors under the current system are able to understand fully the complexities of a case (especially in cases involving medical malpractice or other difficult matters.) After all, these are just people randomly chosen to serve on juries. A juror should have knowledge of the legal system and be intelligent enough to sift the evidence and make sound judgments. And jurors should be allowed to ask questions of witnesses or the judge.

Monday September 8, 2008, 6:26 pm

The human mind is very complex and mysterious.
Healthcare News


Government ministers in Britain are in the midst of discussing controversial plans to allow mentally ill people to be detained against their will, even if they have not committed a crime.
However the Mental Health Bill, rejected by the House of Lords in February, is expected to come in for some heavy criticism in the House of Commons.

An attempt to change the laws in 1998 following a brutal murder, the bludgeoning to death of Lin Russell and her daughter Megan by Michael Stone, failed at the time in the face of widespread opposition.

Stone was regarded as a dangerous psychopath but, because his condition was untreatable, he could not be held under mental health powers.

Michael Stone's conviction spurred the government to suggest that it favoured the bolstering up of the power of medics preemptively to detain and attempt to treat those who, like Stone, suffered from severe personality disorders even where no treatment of proven effectiveness is available.

Ministers say the proposals will help to keep the public safe but many believe the plans will make it easier for people to be detained at a time when the NHS is being forced to close beds in mental health wards.

The public also needs to be assured that public safety and individual rights are balanced.

Experts fear that the plans could impact adversely on mentally ill people more widely and say many more of those with mental illness are more of a danger to themselves than to anyone else.

They also say tougher legislation might not prevent a repeat of the tragedy that originally provoked it, as it was a breakdown in communication between the agencies handling Stone, rather than specific loopholes in the rules governing mandatory treatment, which contributed to the tragedy.

Far more murders are committed by sane than by insane people, and many experience mental illness without being a danger to either themselves or anyone else and critics suggest that the government's latest plans will make it easier to have people sectioned and place increasing the pressure on a system already struggling to cope.

The bill would allow people with severe or violent personality disorders to be confined if they were judged to be a threat to themselves or others.

In February the Lords voted against the idea of compulsion, saying treatment should be given only if it was likely to help the patient.

Previous attempts to change the laws have been abandoned in the face of widespread opposition from both campaigners and doctors who have voiced concerns that government plans are too occupied with public safety, rather than the needs of patients.

The Lords introduced a number of amendments, which would strengthen legal powers and did not completely reject orders for compulsory treatment in the community.

They suggested it be restricted specifically to "revolving door patients" - people who have repeatedly failed to keep up with medication on release from hospital, and who pose a danger to others.

The Lords also proposed that treatment should not be imposed on those able to make up their own minds and that treatability should remain an essential condition.

The bill would affect an estimated 14,000 of the 600,000 people who use mental health services each year

Monday September 8, 2008, 6:32 pm
Shock Therapy: A History of Electroconvulsive Treatment in Mental Illness (2007)
by Edward Shorter and David Healy
Synopsis
"Shock therapy is making a comeback today in the treatment of serious mental illness. Despite its reemergence as a safe and effective psychiatric tool, however, it continues to be shrouded by a longstanding negative public image, not least due to films such as the classic "One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest", where the inmate of a psychiatric clinic (played by Jack Nicholson) is subjected to electroshock to curb his rebellious behavior. Beyond its vilification in popular culture, the stereotype of convulsive therapy as a dangerous and inhumane practice is fuelled by professional posturing and public misinformation. Electroconvulsive therapy, or ECT, has in the last thirty years been considered a method of last resort in the treatment of debilitating depression, suicidal ideation, and other forms of mental illness. Yet, ironically, its effectiveness in treating these patients would suggest it as a frontline therapy, bringing relief from acute symptoms and saving lives. In this book, Edward Shorter and David Healy trace the controversial history of ECT and other "shock" therapies.
Drawing on case studies, public debates, extensive interviews, and archival research, the authors expose the myths about ECT that have proliferated over the years. By showing ECT's often life-saving results, Shorter and Healy endorse a point of view that is hotly contested in professional circles and in public debates, but for the nearly half of all clinically depressed patients who do not respond to drugs this book brings much needed hope."

Monday September 8, 2008, 7:05 pm
We would argue that prison is no place for such people and can exacerbate existing psychiatric problems in inmates. Prison staff lack the training, experience and skills to deal with mentally ill prisoners who are highly vulnerable in a system never meant for treating the mentally ill. In our view there is an urgent need for small residential places of protection and asylum for those few individuals who remain unsafe in the community. This may prevent the indefinite imprisonment of some seriously ill and dangerous offenders, as occurred in Invercargill twice within an three month period in 2004, due to the fact that “...the secure mental health facilities that were suitable to contain him (them) no longer existed.”(P.A3,Press, May 2004) Corrections and Health need to stop quibbling about who pays and get on with the services they are mandated to provide.The awful truth is the government does not want to fund these services any more. here in PA we had many state hospitals for the Mentally ill they shut them all down and they are putting them into the community where most can't make it . they end up in trouble with the law who's so control happy at the end the mentally ill person is dead. the government has the money they just don't care. Despite the changes brought about by the Mason Report and other significant Mental Health documents in the past 15 years, the provision of mental health services to prison inmates seems to have been forgotten. With the Mental Health Act defining who and which illnesses qualify for treatment, we have seen a rise in the numbers of people who would formerly have been housed in these old institutions, now sitting in prison cells. Many of these individuals have what is now termed a personality disorder – not a mental illness, rather a pattern of inappropriate and at times bizarre behaviours. Therefore,they do not qualify for treatment by the new breed of mental health services.

Monday September 8, 2008, 7:28 pm
Lindsey, I am afraid you do not understand!I live in what someone referred to as Floridiotland!
This a punishment state NOT A Rehabilitative state.OH,YES they do have doctors and therapists.Tell them some of your problems and get locked up in confinement if they think you need it.BUT WAIT it can also be revealed at your hearings for early prole.In essence what I am saying is that you might kept way beyond the time you were scheduled to get out. Also those medications people mention do you know each time it is refilled it is $4.00 the same for doctor appointments.If you can not afford it while in prison then you pay after you get out! YES YOU PAY ALONG WITH ALL RESTITUTION AND CORT COSTS AND FOR YOUR SHITTY PUBLIC DEFENDER! AND THE CLASSES THAT ARE MANDATED BY THE COURT AND EVERYONE WONDERS WHY SO MANY END UP BACK IN PRISON!!!!!!IS IT ANY WONDER.!!!!Sorry but I feel so strongly about this Mary ,Thank you and Thanks for being there for me!

Monday September 8, 2008, 9:20 pm
Bryon, thanks for sharing the story about your grandfather and what happened in his case. This fully well illustrates that yes even mentally ill people who are in an agitated and violent state can be dealt with much more appropriately and in a humane manner. Mainly what it requires is that someone is properly trained and that they actually have some compassion in their heart for others, and they use it. What a difference it would make if there were more people like the officer who helped your grandfather around in the system of both law enforcement and mental health practitioners. Not to mention prison personnel. What a different world it would be. I don't believe anyone should be subject to abuse in prison or in a mental institution, of any kind. I believe that a person who wants to work in these fields should themselves be subject to a good mental evaluation to determine whether or not they are balanced, patient, and compassionate enough to perform their duties correctly and that is with as little harm or no harm done while in the line of duty.

Mary, thanks for the article! Helps to bring attention to severe problems which exist within our system that desperately need to change. Thank you so much!!

Monday September 8, 2008, 9:38 pm
I have read One flew over the cukoos nest (bad spelling, srry) by ken kessey, and have seen the movie. A) kessey wrote that book while under the influence of LSD and other pshycotropics as he state's and b) while working at a nursing home/ asylum.

This was decades before anyone put the science into mental health practice and research. during the prison experiments done by the late timothy leary, m.d., his research assinces and fellow m.d.s noted that there were no controls. in a word, everyone was on it. that's not science.

as for ECT. If you think it sound's good, give it a try, and find out what a TBI is.

I love you all, I'm just saying...

scincerely, bry'

Tuesday September 9, 2008, 12:03 am
Thanks, everyone for keeping the dialog going about the issue of incarcerating mental patients.

I apologize, Lindsey, if my responses were at all offensive earlier. I am so close to the issue because of my brother's demise that sometimes it is hard for me to be as objective as I would like to be with those in the community who are just being introduced to this problem. I'm sorry if I offended you.

Bryon, you are correct that mental hospitals have become intollerable places of abuse and neglect, also, and that medications have replaced therapy through psychiatric sessions more than is needed, I think. Mental hospitals must be built and many others refurbished, properly staffed with caring and compassionate staff, including PLENTY of psychiatrists and psychologists, and proper oversight must be established to make them the places of treatment and restoration we need them to become.

All of the above can be done, and more, with the SAME money that is being used now to have court and then incarcerated mental patients.

Mary

Tuesday September 9, 2008, 12:35 pm
Unselfish and noble actions are the most radiant pages in the biography of souls.Thank you Mary.

Tuesday September 9, 2008, 3:57 pm
A number of issues have been raised here,all having a common link to a mind control program instituted a long long time ago.The program works on every aspect of our lives,designed to control behaviour and emotion(energy)
It seems that every time one speaks of truth,or truth,some being will try to dicredit(calling another insane or mental)or distract us with reasons and justifications for all of Civilizations atrocities.
Here is a link that can help us understand this program and how we can
free ourselves :http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/hambone/monarch1.html

Get Conscious...Save Our Earth and Yourself...No Toxic Chemicals

Every day is a beautiful sunny day...Think it...It will Be...

Tuesday September 9, 2008, 4:45 pm
You know, Mike - the sad thing is that you probably believe in all that mind control business. And of course since anyone who disagrees with you is one of the "beings" who are sent to discredit your truth - then you can't listen to anyone offering more rational thought. I actually feel sorry for you. But I feel even sorrier for the poor misguided people who may read your ideas and actually believe them. Happiness in life occurs when we make the right choices for ourselves. We can only make the right choices when we see the world as it really is - and evaluate it properly. Unfortunately people who believe in such false things as mind control conspiracies are not seeing the world as it really is.

Wednesday September 10, 2008, 4:56 pm
Fnord.

Wednesday September 10, 2008, 5:01 pm
Okay, Nora - I give up - I looked on the internet to try and find the meaning of "fnord" - and was totally perplexed by what I saw!

Any chance of some clarification? I HATE not knowing what a word means....

Thursday September 11, 2008, 12:59 am
Lindsey, I also researched "fnord" and there are so many defintion's and implied definition's that I agree the statement should be clarified.

Having said that, I still see two issue's here on concerning the discusion. A) Are the ways and means of responding to the mentally ill that are incarcerated humane, B) is the headline of this discussion accurate or misleading.

I think it would behoove all of us to return to those issue's. I am certainly guilty of making/posting comment's that distract or digress from the issue(s) and will try my best to stay on track as it were. Please call me out if I'm out of line.

Best reguards, Bry'

Thursday September 11, 2008, 5:38 am
Byron, the headline is completely misleading. And it was meant to be (to try and catch the reader's attention.)

Of course the way in which mentally ill people are treated in prisons is inhumane. So is the way regular prisoners are treated. And children in the foster care system. And animals in shelters. And people who live in dangerous neighborhoods and there aren't enough police to adequately protect them. And.... The problem is money. There just isn't enough money to take care of all the problems. The taxpayer just can't fund all the worthy projects out there - he'd go broke. So all we can do is the best we can.

Thursday September 11, 2008, 6:32 am
Apologie's, Iposted nothing above by accident. My bad.

I wanted to say Lindsey that I don't think the headline is misleading, in so far as that prisoner's are "gassed." I do agree the headline might have been more specific in nature, but few are, be they on the C2 network or the mainstsream media, or many other example's we see in day-to-day conversation opening's.

I also agree that money is a large issue here. For example, if I recieve familiy or friendly income then my ssi will be automatically reduced. Sen. Mccain's ssi is much more than i recieve regaurdless of his family fortune.
It's not so much a lack of money, rather it's a lack of responsible use of money. I'll spare everyone from further example's on that issue.

Thursday September 11, 2008, 7:04 am
The reason I say the headline is very misleading is that written like that it implies that those people were sent to the gas chamber. Most people would take the word "gassed" (in connection with any incarcerated person) as meaning killed. Although it, of course, does include being tear-gassed, etc. - but I'm talking about people's first impression of the word used in that context. And that's exactly what the poster wanted - to get our attention so we'd read the story.

Sunday September 21, 2008, 6:12 pm
Mary, finally found it and voted. discusting. If they ever had gassed my Aunt this way I would have bitched til my mom sued. I am not one that even likes some of the hospitals as they too are ugly to mental patients and sometimes it isn't safe to keep them at home. It is such a complex problem on how to help people with mental illness and I don't think we have come far enough in this area. Some drugs help, some provoke them or they become zombies. I hate the whole system for these people but jail is just wrong

Friday October 17, 2008, 9:00 am
Well, except for the short article I had a wee bit of trouble finding any facts in that WWII history lesson. I can see how very important to bring up Nazi gassing to stir up some extra emotion in people over this. THESE ARE NOT INNOCENT PEOPLE! They are incarcerated for a reason. Anyone who can honestly say that they feel pity for a guy that stabs an elderly person laughing all the while just because they have a mental illness is either lieing or should be locked up and gassed right next to him. Did ya ever stop to think of the poor men and woman who have to take care of these nut bags? Would you rather have them beat the hell out the patients when they get out of control? And to all of you who think these people are just poor souls with a minor problem, hop into a room with some of those so called innocent victims. You'll be begging for a can of pepper spray. Good luck on your save the crazies campaign.