Saturday June 16, 2007, 5:22 pm
Oh, how fun and charming - this was an excellent reminder, Chris! Wish I had a garden! If you have one, please, consider how
"...you can start today to help offset global warming:
Plant a Tree in Your Yard. Three trees planted strategically around your home can reduce energy use by as much as 50 percent. Do it right by following the simple steps at www.americanforests.org/planttrees/howto.php
/Please look at the following idea!/
Combine energy savings with American history when you plant a tree from American Forests’ Famous & Historic Trees, offspring of trees that witnessed/connected with famous people, places, and events. See the complete list, from the George Washington Tulip Poplar and the Walden Woods Red Maple to the Disney Dreaming Tree Cottonwood and the Oklahoma City Survivor Tree, an American elm. See the complete list at www.historictrees.org." (from the submitted article)
Thanks a lot Chris!

Saturday June 16, 2007, 5:57 pm
For us who have no garden: "Join a Community Group and Help Plant Trees Where You Live. Trees work doubly hard in our cities. They cool and clean the air, reduce stormwater runoff, and prevent erosion. Trees are also proven to foster community pride and enhance property values. Many communities have local tree-planting groups." (quote from the article)

Sunday June 17, 2007, 4:11 pm
Thanks Doris...

And if you folks are interested, American Forests has several tree planting projects which could use you help - each dollar you contribute plants another tree :)

http://www.americanforests.org/planttrees/

Monday June 18, 2007, 1:56 am
In general, forests are essential, but they must be appropriate. As the earth warms the sub-Arctic coniferous forests are creeping northwards, changing the albedo (reflectivity) of the land surface from highly reflective - returning solar radiation to space - to highly absorbant, and thus increasing the temperature of the land surface. If tree planting reduces the albedo of the land surface then the net effect may be further global warming, further ice cap melting and even more warming.

So if forests are to be planted, they must be planted with care, not only to ensure the albedo is not dramatically decreased, but also to ensure that the existing biodiversity is not affected by monoculture planting. American Forests appears to be sound - some tree planting efforts are not.

Keith Farnish
www.theearthblog.org

Monday June 18, 2007, 4:46 am
Yes............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THINK OF TOMORROW-
PLANT SEEDS
GROW TREES
MAKE A FOREST
FOR MOTHER NATURE
AND HER ANIMALS....................................

Monday June 18, 2007, 7:06 am
yes,yes and yes!!!! we need to plant and to protect the existing forests.

Monday June 18, 2007, 9:55 am
Its very important that this gets around and get to planting trees and stop development . We have been doing damage to wild life and our lives. Its time to go back to a more helpful life and give back habitats to the wild life and fresh air to all to breath.

Monday June 18, 2007, 11:28 am
This is a load of crap. You cannot reduce global CO2 loading by planting trees because trees alone cannot sequester enough carbon for long enough to change the atmospheric physics in any real way. Sure, plant trees. Go for it. But any carbon they remove WILL return to the atmosphere later, perhaps very quickly, when the leaves fall or the entire tree falls and decays, and you will have bought yourself NOTHING.

The only way to stop global warming is to KEEP THE FOSSIL FUELS IN THE GROUND. Once they are out fo the ground and on the surface, we have to live with them for 200-1000 years, more like millions, until they are somehow reburied. Anything short of a moratorium on fossil fuel consumption seals our doom, and you can merrily plant trees until the ends of the earth and then you WILL burn to a cinder just as quickly as if you had done nothing.

If you don't understand that, then you really do not understand the problem. This is carbon cycling, people, not voodoo and we have just un-done 300 million years of carbon BURIAL. Feel-good solutions are as meaningless as prayer at this point. Get out of your fscking car and stop buying cheap crap from China, or else watch the planet die.

Monday June 18, 2007, 11:39 am
BTW, the message that "all we need to do is plant trees" is now a favorite solution offered by... the oil and coal and auto industries. And what else *can* they say? They aren't going to say "get out of your fsking car or die" now, are they? Exxon will be buying up millions of saplings and having happy shiny school children plant them in vacant lots, all under the watchful control of their massive PR machine, which you all would eat up like candied apples. And then Exxon and the kids and the treehuggers will walk away while those saplings are left to die in the heat and drought when everyone loses interest. Wow, so effective. Well it doesn't work for me, and when you pass me in your SUV with a load of saplings on your way to some hapless tree planting theatrical farce I'll be on my BIKE trying to survive the end of the entire, god-forsaken world as my species has known it. Yeah I'm a little bitter. Deal with it, sucker.

Monday June 18, 2007, 11:48 am
Cat.........You have made sense since the very first post I ever read of yours. Yes, I agree with you 100% and yes I promote trees non-stop........I couldn't even pay the fee to give me a permit to stand on and repeat what you've written here. Self righteously people would think I was off my rocker as they sense in no way there is a problem on a sunny lunch hour at an outside cafe.............I car not to be scorned or laughed at when in my gut I know you are right!!!!!!!!!!!!!
People really don't want to read, listen to the truth, that is why politician get elected on flimsy promises and pipe dreams............

Let me add something you left out....................THE PILL...........With six billion people about half of them are in the dark about whats coming. Like you wrote some time ago all of the world will not end, not all six billion will die. What will be left is very tiny pockets of life if even that!!!!!!!!!

Plant a tree anyway.........................

Monday June 18, 2007, 12:02 pm
Also, I think it's important to plant trees that are native to the area, not introduced species grown for their commercial value the way timber and oil companies do when they're supposedly looking for "green credentials" (read "greed creds"). Introduced species oftentimes just add to the degradation of the local ecology.

Monday June 18, 2007, 1:12 pm
Chris thanks for your contribution. My birth mother, in her infinite wisdom began her fourth career as a tree planter in the early 70's. Bless her soul, she told me at that time that by the year 2000 all the mountains in this part of the world will be scarred by overlogging. She planted the seed in my mind to continue the cause to save the forests after her passing in 1986. The road back is going to be hard work but thanks to people like her it will be filled with rewards and peace of mind when we plant that one tree. Peace & Love Virginia

Monday June 18, 2007, 1:27 pm
Even in light of my prior statement above I still want to believe just maybe we all can do something collectively to save some of us. To save all of mankind is not even realistic..............99% of us will wail and cry when it hits us..........The domino effect is the best way to explain it all. None of us really know when or where the first domino will fall. The fall will be in slow motion as it is now..........

~~PLANT A TREE ANYWAY~~

Monday June 18, 2007, 1:34 pm
Saving mature forests makes a LOT more sense than planting trees. The reasons are complicated and I don't want to go into it right now, but an acre of mature forest saved now is probably more useful than about 50 acres of new trees planted. Just think about how those two differ (by any measure you like, including carbon content) and you'll get it. Man, you do NOT want the Amazon rainforests going up in flame or even seriously logged. That is so stupid dangerous I could faint just writing about it. Oh hell.

Monday June 18, 2007, 2:21 pm
Why,Chris, you are always talking about dollars we contribute?! Doesn't your Mom give you enough pocket money?!

Monday June 18, 2007, 2:23 pm
Doesn't your Mom give tyou enough pocket money, Chris?! To plant a few trees?

Monday June 18, 2007, 6:33 pm
Hey Nur - You again are truely showing what an idiot you are - why do you keep following me around and posting these silly personel attacks all the time. I have already planted 600 trees through this program this year - among the many other projects that I work on. And that money was earened through my work protecting endangered species - not my mom :)

Cat - The article does not say that planting trees in of itself will solve global warming - but it is a major step forward. Absolutely, preventing the input of CO2 is the best course of action. Also, saving mature trees is a good idea too. However, none of that makes the contribution of planting trees any less valuable - planting trees is just one tool in the toolbox of things we can do to combat global warming.

Monday June 18, 2007, 6:40 pm
real funny (not)

I think I will check that out My little girl would love to see a tree grow (We do not have a yard and she has bugging about planting flowers and would be just as excieted about a tree) I hope they will be able to send pictures from the begininng so she can watch it grow. :)

Monday June 18, 2007, 6:43 pm
Chris you just rock as usual hon!! I am fortunate my home already had good trees around it but guess what gift I give the new home buyers in my family...yup trees!! thank you for all you do Chris

Monday June 18, 2007, 7:38 pm
Better plant a tree than sitting fretting about the doomsday. A tree planted eventhough for timber business is better than the timber business go to pristine forest and cut down trees.
Anyway using timber should be considered as more environtment friendly than using steel, plastic that use a lot of energy to produce (mostly from underground). Business above ground is more sustainable than below ground.

Tuesday June 19, 2007, 3:48 am
This summer I have 1000 going up!! I planted them in The monarch forest & at America Forests:)

In case there are any Treehuggers or butterfly lovers out there that are going to plant trees in this forest?

I have done this multiple times.

If you plant through TheRainForest site. Plz select 100 trees because you pay the same amount for 100 trees as you do 50 trees. Also know that when you do plant the seedlings through TheRainforest site that you are also helping 6,870 sq ft of endangered land also so your $50.00 donation does go a long way!

If you wish to help but don't have $50.00 to donate to plant trees you can donate any amount by visiting the Monarch contact link below Every tree planted is just .50 cents and any amount donated really does help and adds up!

http://www.michoacanmonarchs.org

http://www.michoacanmonarchs.org/Contact.htm

Tuesday June 19, 2007, 10:24 am
Chris: not to be difficult, but I know what they are promoting; "Our Global ReLeaf2 campaign recognizes that there is an urgent need for millions more trees to offset the warming of our planet." My point is that this is itself misleading. The idea that we can magically "offset" atmospheric carbon releases is untrue. I am a biologist, I know what the carbon cycle is, and you cannot "offset" something once it enters another part of the cycle, in this case going from "out of circulation for the past several million years" to "back in circulation". Fossil carbon is moving from the interior of the planet, to the exterior, where it will unquestionably remain in circulation (in some form) for millions of years hence. Some will become locked for a while in large trees (except we'll cut them down and burn them) while some carbon will disolve in the sea (dangerously changing acidity and eventually destroying marine life) while some other amount will remain in the ephemeral biosphere, cycling in and out of the atmosphere annually. Trees are a weak and temporary sink for carbon, while coal and oil were essentially permanent removal. Now, every barrel of oil and every ton of carbon we dig up we will have to live with forever, essentially. Certainly as long as our species will continue to exist.

Sure, plant trees. My god I would never say don't plant a tree. I'm just alarmed that this is being held out as a means to prevent a catastrophy, and that people use tree planting as an excuse for BAU (Business As Usual) without realizing they are just misleading themselves and each other. Hell, the BAU airlines will offer (for a fee) to plant a sapling for you, in some imagined reserve, at some imagined time, under some imagined amount of care and protection, to offset (as they want you to think) the very real carbon released during your very real, highly damaging transcontinental vacation flight. This is a theatrical farce and under the circumstances is utter madness. It promotes BAU behaviors, which is what the oil, coal, energy, transportation, entertainment, and consumer sectors desperately need in order to survive.

The only sure way to stop global warming is to KEEP THE FOSSIL FUELS IN THE GROUND from the outset. Everything else is either hand waving, wishful thinking, or outright lies by special interests. And while I don't know what the future holds for our climate and our planet, I am scared to the edge of reason by what we have done, are doing today, and will clearly continue to do for many many years.

From where I sit, it looks mighty un-good. I don't think we're going to turn this ship around; I don't think we have the will, and even if we did I don't think we have any more time. And I don't know what comes after though I am filled with terror at the prospects.

Tuesday June 19, 2007, 11:24 am
Cat.......I commend you highly..........Your assessments are correct, honest and forthright!!!!!!! If I were a young person right now I would not bring another living human into this world.

I to am scared silly for what lies ahead, mainly for my children and grandchildren...........Can't we America, China, India and Africa see the point...........The problem of over population is as great as what already has been done...........Even if every factory, manufacturing plant, every automobile stopped permanently it would not put a dent into what you epouse.

The poorer countries will go first with millions dying from whatever we can imagine. Yet medical science is trying to save every person on earth and those yet to come from some monumetal health problem, that does not make an ounce of sense to me. The saving of millions for what??????????????????
Man has not done a damned thing according to the laws of nature or common sense When an animal in the wild gets sick there is no natural monumental effort to make it healthy or keep it alive artificially, the animal dies according to nature..........
.We have worried ourselves to no ends on things like the right china, silverware.........And the right shade of lipstick! Why, what for? I'm so anti Hollywood and the Madison Ave philosophy, and have always been extremely conservative in everything I do and believe in.
Man has always believed in the magic of hope in the face of the innevitable........Prayers, hope and crossing ones finger is like voodoo.........It's all made up from centuries of being convinced it works.
Man will die from shear ignorance as much as the manufactured death we've created!!!!!!!

Again you are to be commended for your honesty factual based opinion......................

Plant a tree anyway, it is a great diversion from the ugly truth.

Tuesday June 19, 2007, 2:43 pm
Plant trees, lots of them, you can never plant enough!
http://freepage.twoday.net/stories/3515163/

Tuesday June 19, 2007, 3:06 pm
plant trees, dont breed, advise your blood relatives to do the same -- and remember even riding a bike has a carbon footprint [tyres and metal] -- i will plant ten trees for the first person to post the carbon footprint of an aluminum push bike frame.
it is always handy, when dealing with co2 issues to remember that every carbon molecule you release as co2, requires the theft of two oxygen molecules to turn it from carbon to carbon dioxide -- the more carbon we release, the less available oxygen for our lungs.

Tuesday June 19, 2007, 3:24 pm
I have planted over 4,250 trees in the last 25 months. Trees provide shade and cool the earth through transpiration. Younger trees grow more and absorb more carbon in doing so (per cubic yard). Trees provide habitat, shelter, food for wildlife, oxygen, reduce soil erosion. I'm a civil-engineer working on aquatic restorations on the Mississippi River and sediment along with the chemicals it carries are problem #1. Threes add organic carbons to the soil and Stops Desertification. The root system draws water to the surface. They regenerate the soil, increases land's productivity, and they offsets CO2 levels. Yes offsets. It removes CO2 from the air where it creates the GH effect. Upon death, part of the carbon is returned to gas and released, part of it enhances the soil allowing it to hold more water.

Trees are not the only or the perfect answer. Planting trees do however represent an option that almost anyone can do. Don't let it get you down Cat, that won't help anyone. We can't stop all effects, we can minimize the impact for the future, our future.

Tuesday June 19, 2007, 3:55 pm
Lets also plant a bug in some of our representatives ears about the condition of our planet and the seriousness of what will come if we stand idly by.

Tuesday June 19, 2007, 6:01 pm
noted/thanks/will pass along to others..Great article and thanks for the info......

Tuesday June 19, 2007, 6:09 pm
Hello there Cat Black, it sure looks gloomy for the planet if we don't shift from the business-as-usual-path, and I wonder if you would you like to read this article on "From Overwhelm to Engagement" http://www.permaculture-magazine.co.uk/articles/articles_49.html - the point of course being that we just have to break down a difficult problem into daily portions/tasks that we can muster to take on. We need to understand that problems have many levels and aspects, and that part-solutions can bring about both positive synergy effects, and also some unwished-for side-effects.
Like you I'm also for not using fossile fuels - my family has no car, we've downshifted to a smaller home, we've changed electricity-supplier to a fossile- and nuclear-free "green" one, we too support old-forest preservation. We've stopped flying, and in our holidays we stay at home or go by train (powered by green electricity), etc, etc.
And we also plant trees, really, there are places were there are no trees thoough they are much needed, I especially love two projects, one in the Sahel region in Niger, called Eden-foundation, where the idea is to plant trees against erosion and hunger, trees that are native to the region and don't need any watering by people, and the other is called Vi-skogen, which works with agroforestry around Lake Victoria in three countries.
Tree planting heightens ecological awareness and helps people to take responsibility for their lives. The two projects I mention also have their vital social aspect as they empower the women involved - this is very important for the future of the planet. When women get more power over their lives, for example by planting and owning trees that countribute to the survival of their families, they can start to plan their families, educate their children and most importantly, resist their husbands and traditional gender roles, so that they themselves can decide how many children they will have and they also can rely on their children reaching adult age - it is well known that with higher living standards come lower birth rates, and that's crucial, because we are indeed more people on this earth than is easily adapted to ecological ways of living.
Popes and imams who are against women's own free choice and selfdetermination over their bodies are in fact indirectly killing millions due to hunger and habitat destruction among both people and animals and plants.
Cat B., you raised some important points, but why are you so angry at us, I'm even against buying ethanol from Brazil etc, but in my opinion we need to do a lot of things simultaneously, and stay critical at the same time.
I also think Keith raised a good point, about planting the right kind of woods in the right surroundings and for the right purposes.
I think tree-planting is conscious-raising, too, if you've payed for trees you are naturally more committed to following up on the project and learning more about how trees and woods function. So I hope everyone keeps a keen eye on American forests, so that they do the right kind of planting. Thanks also to Chris, David and Ron and others for good points.
Let's all work hard to lead fossile and nuclear free, energysaving lives, as ecologically balanced as possible, reusing and taking care of the things we've already got and consuming as wisely as possible, because if we want it or not: we are all in this together! :-)

Tuesday June 19, 2007, 6:56 pm
The idea that you could plant a tree with a special meaning in your back-yard appeals very much to me! Trees have been found to have deep emotional and symbolical meaning to nearly 80% of women and nearly 30% of men in one survey by Helmuth Hark - it's easy to imagine that this result is accurate. Please, if you are inspired by Chris' submit, maybe you'd also like to confirm the importance of planting trees by looking into this success-story: http://www.eden-foundation.org/project/work.html, the information about it I hope will spread...
And dear friends, I'm sorry for all the language errors I've made and will make - hope you are kind enough to overlook them!

Tuesday June 19, 2007, 7:58 pm
The love of trees, individual trees and whole forests, is not at all unimportant... because "we won't save what we don't love", as a very wise psychologically oriented author, environmentalist and scholar, Valerie Harms, has said - do find out more about her, it will empower you! :-)
Hugs to all tree-huggers, hang on!

Wednesday June 20, 2007, 6:09 am
Unfortunately in my city bulldozing and razing trees is what usually happens! Fortunately I live in an apartment complex with plenty of crab apple and spruce trees. Most of them have been here for over 35 years!

Wednesday June 20, 2007, 4:54 pm
NASA Models Show Trees Can Slow Increase of Atmospheric Carbon

Converting marginal agricultural land to forests may help slow the increase of carbon in the atmosphere, according to model-based results obtained by NASA scientists using space-based Earth observations and a state-of-the-art ecosystem model.

Full story:
http://www.care2.com/news/member/537645068/364547

Wednesday June 20, 2007, 7:38 pm
Interesting!!! Thanks again!

Wednesday June 20, 2007, 8:54 pm
Whew, I never realized how much this topic has so much diversive perspectives. I am grateful for each comment. It has given me much to think about and investigate more in depth.

Wednesday June 20, 2007, 9:38 pm
Thanks Cat Black for your informing us that trees aren't the answer to our carbon problems as this article may have led us to believe. Great Work!! It seems from the scientific studies that I've read, that there is no magic cure for what we've done concerning Fossil fuels. Though we need to cease now, which we wont, we need to continue looking for an avenue of hope, because as it is, we are looking at the beginning of dooms day. I feel for our children and theirs for what we have created for them to attempt to clean up. The "speed" wasn't worth it!! There are more important things in life than seeing how fast we can go. Automobiles didn't have to do what they have done to our planet if we had only searched harder for an alternative. We are forced to do it now, and I mean now!

Wednesday June 20, 2007, 9:40 pm
Thanks Cat Black for your informing us that trees aren't the answer to our carbon problems as this article may have led us to believe. Great Work!! It seems from the scientific studies that I've read, that there is no magic cure for what we've done concerning Fossil fuels. Though we need to cease now, which we wont, we need to continue looking for an avenue of hope, because as it is, we are looking at the beginning of dooms day. I feel for our children and theirs for what we have created for them to attempt to clean up. The "speed" wasn't worth it!! There are more important things in life than seeing how fast we can go. Automobiles didn't have to do what they have done to our planet if we had only searched harder for an alternative. We are forced to do it now, and I mean now!

Thursday June 21, 2007, 3:55 am
GET REAL HOW MANY AMERICAN IDIOTS WILL PLANT OR EVEN CARE TO PLANT A TREE WE CUT THEM TO FAST NOW WE ARE ON OUR LAST 10% OF FISH LEFT AND OIL WILL RUN OUT WHAT THEN????????

Thursday June 21, 2007, 4:21 am
Here is an intresting booklet discussing how tree planting can contribute to greenhouse gas abatement. Its a pdf file, so it will take a few minutes to download if you have dial-up, but it is a good detailed discussion of the subject.

http://www.greenhouse.gov.au/nrm/publications/pubs/sinks-localgovernment.pdf

Planting tres is obviously a part of the answer to our carbon problems. There is no "sliver bulit", tackeling the carbon issue will take the use of many tools - less carbon intensive energy production, prevention of deforestation, energy conservation, energy efficiency, etc.. The up side of planting trees is that it provides an oportunity to remove the CO2 already in the air - CO2 which otherwise may stay in the atmosphere for houndreds of years (and continue to contribute to global warming over that residency period).

Friday June 22, 2007, 3:48 pm
The IPCC and the US scientists agree the impact of what we call 'the Legacy Load' (emissions from 200 years of imbalance) will have effects on the weather for 1000 years, Clean coal, solar, wind, nuclear, thermal - none of these energy sources can remove CO2 from the atmosphere. Only photosynthesis can do that. Pasture grasses can capture and hold far more than trees, simply because there is more acreage of grazing land than forests - and only 20% of soils are suitable for forestry. Trees and other vegetation can be used to regulate temperature in buildings and can even create microclimates which attract rain. As we in our part of AUstralia have been warned to expect longer, deeper droughts, we are planting thousands of trees - my family planted 3000 on Easter weekend last on our farm where we live. We have a colleague who has planted 30,000. We plant them in what we call 'wildlife corridors' that allow small birds and mammals to traverse the farm frompatches of wild country that we have let regrow to their original forested condition. Remember the Tipping Point. The tree you plant could be the one. (envirofarming.blogspot.com)

Friday June 22, 2007, 5:31 pm
Noted ~ and I have been planting trees ~ besides the fact that it is necessary, it is actually a lot of fun.

Friday June 22, 2007, 11:18 pm
Trees are a beautiful and effective way to help global warming, although we should definately start by stopping the deforestation and the rainforest destruction not only cutting down trees (which help reduce co2) but also the rainforest hold about 90% of the worlds diversity of animals, and many plants are used for medicine.

Saturday June 23, 2007, 9:36 am
"Fossil carbon is moving from the interior of the planet, to the exterior, where it will unquestionably remain in circulation (in some form) for millions of years hence".....Written by Cat Black and posted above, this is the criteria for main consideration. However worthwhile planting and replanting is, and of course it has its merits, the most potential for slowing this cycle is to limit or even cease the continued deforestation of this planet. THERE IS NO NEED to continue to cut, slash and kill anymore trees. Live in what is already built, recycle all the millions of tons of paper already drowning life, and actively make a stand against cutting and burning ANY tree or plant that is not to be eaten. To say more will only be redundant to what has already been written. Except, everyone, I repeat everyone has to assume an ACTIVE roll in putting their body, mind, and voice against the exploitation of the large timber forests of this planet on 'the chopping block' of the present governmental agencies. Otherwise this earth will turn from blue and green to black and dark in your lifetime, or our children's

Saturday June 23, 2007, 10:19 am
Very interesting comments and points of views. I don't think any one action (other than the total discontinuation of all fossil fuels) will make huge differences but to the bird looking for a home or squirrel looking for a nest site, a tree is wonderful! I have always been discouraged with the slight number of homeless animals I have been able to place when I am reminded that to those few animals , it was a world of difference. If we each try to make a difference in even a slight way, it is multiplied to become a huge difference. Keep working for change all my fellow care2'ers and try not to be discouraged!

Saturday June 23, 2007, 12:58 pm
Richard.........AMEN..........

The information passed on by Cat is unsettling to the nerves to say the least. But, when all major countries begin to truly feel the affect of deforesting then and only then will anyone believe and know whats coming.
Can we forstall it?...........I hesitate to think yes.............................

Buy the tree...........Plant it anyway..............

Monday June 25, 2007, 6:20 am
Gladly noted.

Wednesday February 13, 2008, 12:18 am
I do my small tree planting project without any grand thinking.
There is a lot of vacant lot in Indonesia (borneo) farmers could supplement their income by planting trees for timber industry there.
Timber industry could decrease demand for natural forest logs and give income to villagers instead, anyway the vacant lot that I'm talking about is empty so we're not clearing up any new forest to plant trees.
By doing this we could significantly shorten distance between industry and the trees that used to come from natural forest. This could interpret into a saving on fuel / Carbon emmision.
Use more wood that come from this scheme to replace modern materials that made from fossil fuel may be a good start to begin with.