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Abilify Vs. Abilifraud---A Tale of Two Videos

Health & Wellness  (tags: death, drugs, ethics, government, health, healthcare, interesting, risks, safety, society, warning, women )

- 2113 days ago -
Everyone loves a cartoon, a soft voice, and pleasing music. What better way for Big Pharma to capitalize on humanity.

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Kenneth L (314)
Monday August 6, 2012, 9:39 am
Here is the YouTube link to the Abilifraud parody video:

Kenneth L (314)
Monday August 6, 2012, 9:41 am
Maybe someone can post a live link to it....


Ellen m (215)
Monday August 6, 2012, 10:25 am
This may work...but i can't promise anything..fingers crossed..

Ellen m (215)
Monday August 6, 2012, 10:47 am
Sorry about that Kenneth, no luck on this end either, but just typing in Abilify Parody on you tube will get anyone there...
I am really glad if some of this stuff works for some people, as real clinical depression is horribly debilitating..
But that being said, blindly marketing to the masses is criminal in my opinion, and the only help we will get is from ourselves, by being knowledgeable enough to say NO if a doctor attempts to prescribe it, especially without seeking out other options available first, be they therapy such as talking about it with someone, reading as much as you can. or naturopathic alternatives.

An example is right here for me to see in Seattle, where i couldn't even begin to wrap my head around the number of people risking their health taking this stuff just because they have the all to common (around here) Seasonal Affective Disorder.

Going to the doctor with a very real problem is one thing...being not so subliminally convinced you have a problem in the first place through a barrage of TV and mag ads is a whole other ballgame to many are buying season or lifetime tickets to that must be stopped.
To bad there aren't the resources to play parodies like this in commercial time...heck, the laughing alone could probably help or "cure" many...thanks

Nicole W (646)
Monday August 6, 2012, 10:56 am
You cannot currently send a star to Kenneth because you have done so within the last week.

Kit B (276)
Monday August 6, 2012, 10:57 am

Gee, I feel great since taking Abilifraud. I killed myself in the third week and haven't been depressed at all since ending the whole thing.

Why is it that cigarettes can not advertise on TV, too dangerous. But every pharmaceutical company can sell their snake oil and it's A-OK?

Is your child a bit too active for your busy life? Not to worry there's drug for that.

Feeling a little low during these stress-filled times? Worried about losing your job and your home? Not to worry there's drug for that.
Don't have health insurance to pay for the drugs? The company will help you pay for that too. Just keep popping those mind altering drugs, hey wash them down with a few ounces of Vodka and things will look bright, shiny and new.

Susan V (80)
Monday August 6, 2012, 11:20 am
Before taking any pharm industry POISON -and they are all poisons - I suggest readubg Gwen Olsen's, "Confessions of an Rx Drug Pusher." She was a drug rep for over a decade.

It's short, personal and filled with facts about drugs and about the pharmaceutical industry - and about alternatives. I would suggest going to the Brain Bio Centre webpage and looking into Orthomolecular and Dr. Vinitsky's Enlightened Medicine for starters. B12 and Folic acid deficiencies alone can cause serious depression and other brain effects. Omega 3 and Vitamin C and D and B Complex can alleviate many issues.

Whether or not Abilify helps anyone - it can only be harmless if used short term, and even then there are many risks. Whether or not it can help, ALTERNATIVES have a better chance and should not be suppressed.

Our health care should not be in the hands of an industry whose ONLY GOAL is to make money -- and to do so by any means it can get away with. And that is what defines the pharmaceutical industry and its partner in crime, the FDA.

This is not conspiracy or speculation. It is fact. The history of Halcion/triazolam, alone, testifies to this. Prozac is another example.

It's like asking Satan for advice on faith. It's like asking Monsanto to plan your diet. It's like asking Halliburton to be in charge of solar energy development. It's like asking Hitler to crack down on eugenics. Shall I go on?

Kathy Chadwell (354)
Monday August 6, 2012, 11:34 am
You cannot currently send a star to Kit because you have done so within the last week.

Was that before or after the kidney & liver failure that they talk about REAL FAST in the disclosure part:)

LaurenBackSoon Kozen (173)
Monday August 6, 2012, 12:31 pm
Noted. Thanks for posting Kenneth.

Kenneth L (314)
Monday August 6, 2012, 12:54 pm
Thanks Ellen, but I meant one of those red links that with a just a single click takes you there.
Other than that the first link I posted does the job, you just have to copy and paste...

Kit B (276)
Monday August 6, 2012, 12:57 pm

OK, Kathy there may be some side effects to these drugs, like kidney and liver failure or heart attack, and suicide. But hey, it a legal form of escape, we can't have people relaxing and relieving stress by smoking a joint, so instead we drug 'em with "happy pills" and indirect answer to over population.

Agnes W (141)
Monday August 6, 2012, 3:10 pm

Phyllis P (237)
Monday August 6, 2012, 4:30 pm

Eternal Gardener (745)
Monday August 6, 2012, 4:45 pm
Is this Big Pharma's idea of controlling overpopulation? Totally irresponsible from them, healthcare and the media!

Kathy Chadwell (354)
Monday August 6, 2012, 5:43 pm
Agreed Kit,, more and more mind control drugs on the market that they claim are a cure all. For what? Messing with the brain patterns? They scare me,, when people talk about zombies they don't realize that a certain part of the brain can and has survived death (for how long is not certain) but add a disease to that already unnatural possibility,, They must be forced to stop playing God

Kathy Chadwell (354)
Monday August 6, 2012, 5:49 pm
Forensic files watched one where the husband & wife were attacked in bed with an ax. When the alarm clock went off the man got up, went down stairs,, got his newspaper,, locked himself out, got the hidden key, let himself in,, few more stepped then finally collapsed. They talked about a certain part of the brain that survived and cause him to do all these things while he was actually,, a dead man walking.

Lynn Squance (235)
Monday August 6, 2012, 6:06 pm
I guess I am lucky to live in BC --- I haven't seen any pharmaceutical advertising save Tylenol etc. and even that is sparse. I've seen Viagara ads which I think are absolutely stupid but that was so long ago and could have been from an American station. I don't have cable anymore so I don't get the American stations or anything anymore.

If I am asked to take a drug, I am always asking why and how long fom the doctor. From my pharmacist I ask about contra indications and interactions.

Good videos Kenneth.

Jim P (3257)
Monday August 6, 2012, 6:11 pm
According to the TV series, FRINGE, the brain does live for at least 6 hours after the body has died...
Least we all forget, the brain has electricity flowing through it...

The FDA is staffed with big pharma and drug companies' representatives just so they can pass lots and lots
of "faux" pills to unsuspecting consumers. We can all thank the previous bushy dubya administration for their
help in getting this done.

Least we all forget, Monsanto has done the very same thing with the FDA and USDA with the help of Vilsack,
a very real Monsanto shill.

Ok, enough of my "rant"... Go and take a "happy pill" or better yet, get a prescription for a bit of Mary Jane...
Or even the best solution is to grow your own, organically!

Ty, Kenneth.


Kim O (396)
Monday August 6, 2012, 7:15 pm
Noted! Thanks for the info, Kenneth!!

Jane Warren (8)
Monday August 6, 2012, 8:31 pm
thnx for this

Bianca D (87)
Monday August 6, 2012, 9:54 pm
Important post. Tx Kenneth.

Susan V (80)
Monday August 6, 2012, 10:35 pm

Very good video/report on overdrugging kids in Britain.

Be sure to watch the video with the guy on the pier with this story also.

In the cartoon ad, the character says "My depression" FIVE times in the first few seconds along with "My antidepressant" 2 times and the narrator adds "YOUR depression" 2 times. The idea is to make it look like it's focusing on YOU and your special needs, when it's simply using psychological techniques to sell you a POISON! It even tells you it's a poison that can kill, but it fails to point out that it can kill YOU -- even though it can.
If it were honest it would illustrate how YOU look with YOUR diabetes that you almost certainly will get if you take Abilify long enough. It ought to show YOUR weight gain which usually occurs very quickly -- or even show how YOU look in YOUR coma or YOUR casket after Abilify kills YOU.

But I haven't watched the parody yet - maybe it does that.

Susan V (80)
Monday August 6, 2012, 11:05 pm
Only thing I don't like about the parody is that it downplays the seriousness of some depression which may seem a put-down to those who are really suffering.

Although certainly too many doctors readily prescribe these and all psychotropic drugs for any degree of sadness or depression, for which the drugs show no effectiveness at all.

It's not that depression isn't real, it's that doctors don't try to find or deal with the cause, because that is not as lucrative financially - or because they can't seem or have time to think beyond what a pharm rep tells them to do.

Nevertheless, I'm glad to see a parody of this disgusting trend in advertising that's gone on far too long. Would like to see more. Would like to be on the team.

Gwen Olsen's revelations (Confessions of an Rx Drug Pusher) expose how these ads are even worse than they look. From what I gather, the drug industry KNOWS it is creating chronic illness by pushing these poisons, making conditions worse so it can exploit people's suffering even more.

Despite how transparent the ads seem to us, they have been wildly effective in increasing drug sales over the years, she says. From what I could gather, only the US and New Zealand allow this exploitative Direct to Consumer advertising.

Oh and by the way, the ads always show how happy and normal those taking these drugs act and feel. But many are tortured by antipsychotics (which is what Abilify is) --- there was outrage in the 70s when the former Soviet Union used this class of drugs to torture its prisoners - it was described as worse than beatings and other physical torture. Imagine what Children go through and can't just stop taking them -- or people put in mental hospitals (which happens more frequently than you'd imagine _ they are forced to take the drugs or they are either never let out or denied fresh air or visitors. So the parody makes it appear that it's like getting drunk - but it's not.


P A (117)
Monday August 6, 2012, 11:59 pm
Waned to send loads of stars - to Kit and to Susan V, and Kathy C and more - but the computer says the week isn't up yet! Oh it is EVIL to convince people they are ill when they are not - just to sell drugs and ruin their health!

Peace Monger (185)
Tuesday August 7, 2012, 1:12 am
Must say the parody was far better than the Big Pharma video; thanks Kenneth!

Kenneth L (314)
Tuesday August 7, 2012, 1:17 am
I noticed the same thing Susan about the word DEPRESSION in the ad. Everyone knows it's a trigger term nowadays, has been for decades actually Psychiatry has managed to make society instantly connect the word depression or depressed with a psychiatric 'mental disorder'.
About 10 yrs. ago I casually mentioned to my family doctor I was a bit down, feeling a little depressed, and wham, instantly he whips out a pad to refer me to the local mental health clinic. It was instantaneous.
Sure anyone can feel down, which purely and simply means sad, to varying degrees. It's a real emotion like any other. But Psychiatry has created a widespread 'epidemic' of a 'mental disorder or illness' called 'DEPRESSION' (which btw as a psychiatric 'disorder' is not scientifically valid or provable by any means whatsoever, it's all hypothesis and theory).
I like how the cartoon woman at the end says "Depression used to define me..." She should add "Psychiatry now defines me"
Its' interesting too how it's a WOMAN in these ads. They must be going after the fact that 2.5x more women than men take antidepressants. Woman, thy emotional nature has set you up for Big Pharma's profiteering...

Kenneth L (314)
Tuesday August 7, 2012, 2:03 am
Well, latency is hitting me, so I will try to post a second time.

Susan, that is a GREAT video you linked:

Elsewhere, Dr. Grace Jackson, an honest psychiatrist, relates how studies in neuroscience have shown that any of the five classes of psychotropic drugs that are commonly used to alter the brains of psychiatric patients (antidepressants, antipsychotics, psychostimulants, tranquilizers and anti-seizure/”mood-stabilizer” drugs) have shown microscopic, macroscopic, radiologic, biochemical, immunologic and clinical evidence of brain shrinkage and other signs of brain damage, especially when used long-term. This especially includes children's developing brains. And this is in addition to side-effects such as diabetes, weight gain, stunted growth etc.
In short, studies have shown these drugs CAUSE brain malfunction and damage, as 'treatment'.

Kenneth L (314)
Tuesday August 7, 2012, 2:30 am
At the end of Susan's video, a father talks about his 10 yr. old son, little Harry Hucknall, who hung himself in his bedroom after being on 2 psychiiatric drugs. What a heinous crime against a child, against youth, against humanity, against life.

Michela M (3964)
Tuesday August 7, 2012, 2:52 am
Coming back to Italy from UK now!!!


Ruth C (87)
Tuesday August 7, 2012, 5:53 am
Thank you Kenneth for the info.

Past Member (0)
Tuesday August 7, 2012, 6:18 am
TU Kenneth. Great comments....ditto Jim P in particular.

Sheryl G (363)
Tuesday August 7, 2012, 6:37 am
Ok Kenneth here is your hotlink to the parody:
What a mistake when these drugs could be aired on tv, they need to go the way of the smoking commercials. Just stack on those chemicals, one don't fix you right up or kill you first, just add on another and another, and keep em' coming, the CEO's and Shareholders say, thank you.

Azaima A (207)
Tuesday August 7, 2012, 6:43 am

Kenneth L (314)
Tuesday August 7, 2012, 10:00 am
Thanks so much Dandelion! How do you do it? Bianca has told me how with html code but that looks kind of complicated, I'm sure there must an easier way right from YouTube? I use Opera browser now, not Chrome anymore (and hardly ever IE). Thanks for your help and comment.

Elizabeth Fuller (134)
Tuesday August 7, 2012, 10:03 am
When I first saw the commercial for Abilify, my first thought was two words...Ability and Amplify...Ability to Amplify...Amplifiying a depression medicine with the Ability to worsen the side effects that come with it....To Amplify the Ability to commit suicide....and so is simply a medicine that has the capability or Ability to Amplify your current depression medicine...and all the side effects that come with it....a booster pill if you will...and another sorry ass market scheme to make more money off the suffering of the general public...adults and children.

Elizabeth Fuller (134)
Tuesday August 7, 2012, 10:13 am
***Did she say "harmicide"*** I know...she said suicide or homicide but the term harmicide...and I just made this up....should be a real word on the side of depression med pill boxes means to harm oneself to the extent of suicide. Taking depression medicines can do just that.

Kenneth L (314)
Tuesday August 7, 2012, 10:46 am
I like your terms Elizabeth, 'Amplify' and 'harmicide'. Make sure to watch the Abilifraud video, Dandelion has provided the hotlink, just click. As someone on YouTube said, it sounds like Elvira, Mistress of the Dark. Could be, since she's kind of a maverick and not afraid to rock the boat.

Gloria H (88)
Tuesday August 7, 2012, 1:03 pm
The parody was terrific!
Anyone with an ounce of brain would pay attention to the side effects. Feelin lucky? moo ha ha
So if more Prozac doesnt work, why take Abilify ? Why don't the guys at Abilify go to work at Prozac if they have the answers?

Debra Van Way (12)
Tuesday August 7, 2012, 2:20 pm
I have seen loads of "medicine" commercials on the internet and always have to laugh at them when they spend 30 seconds listing the side effects which usually are far worse than whatever the drug is supposed to treat. I especially got a kick out of one used to treat depression-one of the side effects-drum roll please-"taking this medication may cause depression in some cases."

Mary T (178)
Tuesday August 7, 2012, 5:48 pm
Thanks Kenneth, Pills for everything that you think is wrong with you have terrible side effects, I had a doctor that wanted me to take a anti depression and I refuse to take it after finding out all the side effects, It may cause depression alone with a lot of other things, Truly insane.

Antonia Windham (6)
Tuesday August 7, 2012, 6:02 pm
So long as the ads aren't making false claims, I've no problem with them. Can't get prescription meds without your doctor writing the script, so no one's running out to start gulping down these meds without medical say-so.

Whether doctors're overprescibing psych meds and whether pharmaceutical companies're always honest about the effects of drugs is a whole different story, though - although some meds're necessary and many're helpful and health-saving, some are way overprescribed and some have side effects hidden by the pharm companies. But since the issue's advertising, I've no argument with the ad 'less facts show it's untruthful.

Kenneth L (314)
Tuesday August 7, 2012, 6:59 pm
Antonia: "unless facts show it's untruthful'" Hmmm. Depending on the 'facts'. According to a lot of psychiatrists, psychologists, medical doctors, neurologists, and others the field of Psychiatry itself is a pseudoscience that is not based on facts regarding any proof whatsoever of any of their 'mental disorder', including 'depression' as touted in this ad. Not a single scientist has ever stated "Here is scientific proof" that anything in the brain is the cause of any mental disorder in Psychiatry. Which is what psychiatric drugs such as Abilify are supposedly created to treat using this non-existent 'brain science' as their basis and foundation.

See a list of various statements by some professionals here:

All are quotes.

Dr. Gary Kohls, MD: "...pharmaceutical industries know that most psychotropic drugs that they present for FDA-approval have only been tested in animal trials for days or weeks and only tested in clinical trials with real humans for only four to eight weeks".

Dr. Peter Breggin, psychiatrist "Most people seem to believe that the FDA conducts its own independent studies of drugs and then decides whether or not to approve them. Nothing could be further from the truth. The FDA, in fact, doesn't have any money to perform its own studies during the approval process for drugs.
All FDA drug studies are constructed, supervised, and paid for by the drug companies themselves, using doctors and research teams of their own choosing - often people with long-established relationships with the company. It seems obvious, but should be underscored, that the pharmaceutical companies do everything they can to make their studies turn out right."

There is much research online to show that even the clinical trials are rushed through to product approval by the drug companies, and many psychiatrists have financial ties to the drugmakers of the drugs they are prescribing.


Iona Kentwell (129)
Wednesday August 8, 2012, 1:59 am
My kids and I thought the original ad was pretty funny too! If only people could actually hear and see what was being presented to them. The list of "side" effects the ad mentioned, while only a minute selection, are so over the top it boggles the mind that people would reach for this crap. The parody was great, it should get TV play too.
Something has GOT to be done about this whole system of advertising prescription drugs directly to the consumer, drug reps rewarding GPs for promoting their products and the governments paying for it! This stuff is poison, it does literally kill people directly and indirectly by inducing suicide and homicide.

Antonia Windham (6)
Wednesday August 8, 2012, 2:02 am
Kenneth, not knowing the specific origins of a disease doesn't make the disease unreal. Once medical science was in the dark about the origins of all disease and over time it learns. And learns to treat. Anyone who's in any doubt of the reality just needs to spend some time with a schizophrenic who's hearing voices and undergoing extreme paranoia.

Psych meds work for many. For some, not at all. And for some the meds harm. Like with so many drugs, there's no one-size-fits-all.

The proof's in the pudding. The fact that they do work to alleviate the symptoms of mental illness in some patients. I saw that with the son of a good friend. Bi-polar disorder. Suicidal and completely out-of-control life when off his meds. Non-suicidal and leading a good life when on the meds. Unfortunately when his condition stabilized after a while he'd develop the belief he'd been cured and no longer needed the meds. And would go off them, against all medical advice. Last time he went off them he hung himself. Mental illness's often a terminal disease. And the fact we don't yet fully understand the causes doesn't make it any less fatal. It needs to be treated when it's severe enough and lengthy enough to disrupt lives - and drugs're part of the treatment regimen for some. Talk therapy, behavior modification, and suchness help some, but not all and not always enough.

Antonia Windham (6)
Wednesday August 8, 2012, 2:47 am
And Iona, you talk of side effects and 'poison'. What you're overlooking is that sometimes the side effects of the disease are severe enough that the risk of even a dangerous drug are worth it. I'm dumbfounded at how so many're of the mind that drugs are bad if they aren't 100% safe with zero side effects. But that just isn't how it is. And just because there are specific known side effects doesn't mean every patient'll experience every side effect - some experience some and others not.

And sometimes 'poison' is needed. Sometimes to try to treat and cure we've a need to 'poison' the things causing the disease. Waving a magic wand over the patient'd be nice and safe but it doesn't tend to work.

Each drug's a need to be considered on its own merits and each patient's a need to be treated with the drug appropriate to that patient.

I wonder how many of those who so blithely dismiss psych-drug therapy have ever had a need for it themselves (or had someone they loved suffer long-term mental illness)? Not many, I'd guess. Because if they had they'd know firsthand how devastating it can be. The subject matters intensely to me - I wish there'd been effective medication that might have prevented the lifelong misery my mother lived through from destroying her life (and leaving major scars on her children and the rest of the family). Not that she'd have taken it, of course, since she was never able to come to terms with the fact that she was badly psychiatrically ill. Mental illness's damned real and it harms a lot of people besides just the patient. And anyone who's a mind to try and talk others out of the option of medication just on general principle's irresponsible in the extreme. Psych patients are all too likely to not take their meds to begin with - they don't NEED an irresponsible public trying to help them avoid what sometimes can make their lives better.

Yes, insist the pharm companies be honest. Yes, insist doctors not overprescibe meds. Yes, insist that those who've no need for drugs shouldn't get them. Yes, insist that drugs need to be thoroughly studied. But stop trying to weave some fantasy that drugs are demons. There are too bloody many people who need those drugs and all those naysaying laypeople out in internet-land need to stop playing pseudo-scientist and pretending they know what's best for all patients.

Kenneth L (314)
Wednesday August 8, 2012, 3:51 am
Antonia, you're immediately stating it ('depression') is a 'disease'. You're going to have to prove it's a 'disease' first, if you're going to go on that tack, in order for it to then even have a cause. So it's up to somebody to prove it's a disease, or illness, or disorder. That's FIRST.
But more specifically, for Psychiatry to prove it, since 'depression' is a term created by that field, and states it is an 'illness' or 'disease'
When you use terms such as 'depression' 'schizophrenia' and 'bipolar disorder' you are doing what most people do. You are simply parroting what the field of Psychiatry has said is a 'disease' and that someone 'has it'. No proof of any actual such disease, only labels given to categories of behaviors..
I never said not knowing the cause of something doesn't make it real. That's FALSE. With cancer for example,there are medical tests that prove there is a cancer. There are no objective medical or scientific tests in Psychiatry that prove any of their 'disorders' are actual diseases. They admit this themselves.

I'm glad you mentioned pudding, since these ads should not to be so cavalierly and naively treated by you, as they are not selling a chocolate pudding product. They are selling powerful psychoactive chemical compounds. Make no mistake, they are SELLING them. The pharmaceutical companies make MANY BILLIONS of dollars a year selling their products.
As for psychiatric meds that 'work', you need to research about 'placebo effect', as it a very real effect regarding any pill that a human being takes as a treatment. Do not invalidate the extent of placebo effect. You need to research this yourself.
No one said a person can't experience or be in mental distress, or that it isn't real, or can't be severe or even crippling. That a person experiences or is in various mental states DOES NOT therefore then EQUAL what the field of Psychiatry says they are, necessarily. The two do not necessarily equate. Just because Joe says 'there's a dog' doesn't mean it's true, necessarily. There are many other fields who do not view various mental problems as Psychiatry does. Anyone knows this.

You need to do your own due diligence and research for yourself about all this. I quote many mental health professionals who state Psychiatry is pseudoscience and there is no basis for any of their 'mental disorders'. You need to tell them all about it, since they are the professionals and they are the ones making their professional statements .

It is extremely well known that withdrawal off of psychotropic drugs can cause many side-effects. That's because they are powerful psychoactive chemicals. Shall we mention all the suicides from people TAKING psychtropic drugs, that have the VERY side-effects of suicidal ideation right on the black-box warning label?

I don't want to bog all this down into a back and forth debate with you personally. As I said, you need to attack those professionals who I have quoted and tell them what you know and what they don't know.


Kenneth L (314)
Wednesday August 8, 2012, 4:11 am
Antonia, as for your indictment at Iona of your personal stories about psychiatric 'mental illnesses', do you actually think I or any ot these other people who simply 'dismiss' it all don't have their own personal stories? Do not come off high-handed and more victimized than anyone else, unless you know everyone else. Personally I have a friend who has a been a stinking zombie for the two decades they've been on psychiatric drugs for 'schizophrenia' (and yes tried all the various 'treatment' dosages etc). Another friend whose friend is now nuts and crazy BECAUSE of their psychiatric drug. Many, many, many other personal stories.

As for this by you: "I'm dumbfounded at how so many're of the mind that drugs are bad if they aren't 100% safe with zero side effects". Who thinks that or says that? That's virtually FALSE, and ridiculous On the other hand I think it's irresponsible for you to be naive to the whole litany of possible side-effects that can come with every psychotropic drug, including suicide, psychosis, and violence.

In the end it's up to EVERY INDIVIDUAL THEMSELVES to inform themselves, research things themselves, then decide for themselves about these things


Antonia Windham (6)
Wednesday August 8, 2012, 4:44 am
I'm in full agreement with you, Kenneth, that 'depression' is not, in and of itself in all cases for all people, a 'disease'. Sometimes it's a reasonable reaction to bad things happening in life and'll go away when life gets better. But sometimes it doesn't go away, changing situations don't change the feelings, the brain's reacting in ways that aren't normal, and it severely harms the patient. And needs to be treated.

The main body of science acknowledges mental illness AS an illness (and that doesn't mean every condition listed as a disorder's automatically a disorder - I'm speaking of mental illness in general). I don't go with what the small minority of scientists say - I go with what the majority of doctors and researchers say. And as for mental illness being 'categories of behavior', not all mental illness's evidenced by behavior alone. The hearing of voices, seeing illusions, experiencing grossly false perceptions of reality, and such aren't behaviors - they're internal symptoms of the body going wrong. Of the body reacting to the cause in ways that're harmful to it. They're reasonable EVIDENCE that the body's in dysfunction.

And the point I made about my friend's son who hung himself was that he was suicidal BEFORE he took meds, WASN'T suicidal while on the meds, and was AGAIN suicidal AFTER stopping the meds. The meds stabilized his condition - they won't for everyone but they DID for him.

And, yes - there are indeed some who promote the idea that drugs are bad if they aren't 100% safe and have no side effects. By constantly carping about the negative side effects and dangers without concurrently acknowledging that sometimes the risk is justified. By skewing the argument so that only one side's presented. By crying 'poison' without also saying that sometimes 'poison' will work and save lives. Heaven knows I've seen enough people around this forum and elsewhere who've made ridiculous statements about how we should NEVER take pharmaceuticals and that only 'natural' remedies should be used (despite 'natural' drugs having their own negative side effects and dangers). Such fools do actually exist.

Sometimes when science knows the cause of a condition we're able to treat the cause. When the cause isn't known or isn't known well, sometimes we can at least treat the symptoms. On an individual basis. Using what works for the individual. And without shouting fire in the crowded room and trying to frighten everyone into avoiding the treatment. Because that's what talk like this does (and's sometimes intended to do) - create a general avoidance.

Antonia Windham (6)
Wednesday August 8, 2012, 5:08 am
In many ways, the anti-psych-med crowd's doing exactly what the anti-vaccine crowd's done to society. The anti-vacciners spend so damned much time one-sidedly promoting the known potential bad side effects that vaccines can and do have that far too many people've listened - and started refusing many or all vaccines altogether. Only thinking about the known risks rather than comparing those known risks to the known benefits - because that's what too much of the rhetoric's been about. The risks, the risks, the risks, the risks, the risks. One-sided promotion about the risks. And preventable medical conditions're happening in greater numbers.

When enough people campaign against something as 'poison' or whatever perjorative they've chosen to use, many'll listen and see that something as nothing BUT benefitless poison.

Kenneth L (314)
Wednesday August 8, 2012, 5:35 am
Antonia, it has nothing to do with you giving your opinions that 'some people' have this 'disease' of 'depression' and some don't. When it's stated as a disease, it's being called a disease. But there is NO PROOF it is a disease, period.
When you make statements like "the brain's reacting in ways that aren't normal" that's complete subjective opinion! AND again there is NO PROOF that anything in the brain is CAUSING a behavior or manifestation regarding any psychiatric 'mental disorder'.
"We can scan all the brains we want to; the fact that we can see changes in people's brains, changes in functioning, doesn't mean we have discovered anything that has its origin in the brain; it just means that we're seeing changes, but it doesn't mean that there's something wrong with the brain" Dr. Grace Jackson, Psychiatrist

And as I said, most people, including professionals, are simply parroting the terms of Psychiatry that were CREATED in Psychiatry. No other field.

You say: "not all mental illness's evidenced by behavior alone. The hearing of voices, seeing illusions, experiencing grossly false perceptions of reality, and such aren't behaviors - they're internal symptoms of the body going wrong". You're playing semantics with 'behavior' and 'symptoms' since the latter is intimately connected with the former.

I also don't simply credit as true anything necessarily because a majority number of people agree about it, as that would have made the earth flat when a majority said it was.

Yes, there are SOME who may think if a drug isn't 100% safe then it's no good, which is why I said 'virtually' false. You're on a diatribe against a few?

I notice you don't address all the children and adults who have been harmed by psychotropic drugs, or died.

You're starting to come across as a know-it-all.

You've stated your viewpoint. You evidently think I and others, including professionals, are dumbasses and don't know as much as anyone else, like yourself for instance.

What you have mostly given is your opinion, both anecdotal and personal. "Because that's what talk like this does...create a general avoidance". That's pure opinion, that's a generality actually as well. And to a lot of people, who know less than you of course, certainly DO think otherwise than you when it comes to psychotropic drugs.


Kenneth L (314)
Wednesday August 8, 2012, 5:38 am
Antonia, now you're making some created comparison between the 'anti-vaccine crowd' with an 'anti-psychiatry crowd'? Thanks for your opinion and idea. You will have a lot of debate to do with those lay people and professionals who feel certain ways about vaccines, and those who feel certain ways about psychotropic drugs.

Kenneth L (314)
Wednesday August 8, 2012, 6:26 am
""There is no definition of a mental disorder. It's bullshit. I mean, you just can't define it." Dr. Allen Frances, Chairman of the Task Force of the current DSM4, professor emeritus of Psychiatry (the DSM is the Diagnostic and Statisical Manual commonly known as the 'bible' of Psychiatry, since it lists all the 'mental disorders', aka 'mental illnesses' and 'mental diseases' that psychotropic drug prescriptions are written using.)


Antonia Windham (6)
Wednesday August 8, 2012, 6:50 am
Kenneth, it does indeed make sense to go with the majority of medical professionals when it comes to making medical decisions. Because, although they can be wrong, statistically they're a lot more likely to be right than the minority. And infinitely more likely to make a better decision than I would - since that's what their expertise is for and why we pay experts for their expert opinion rather than relying on our own non-expert opinions.

And it's not 'semantics' to describe the seeing of illusions, hearing voices, and suchness as not being behavior. Behavior is what we do - what we see and hear isn't doing - it's what our brains are relaying to our sensory organs.

You state, "I notice you don't address all the children and adults who have been harmed by psychotropic drugs, or died." But I did. In my first comment. And my second comment. And later. I very decidedly stated that they can indeed cause harm and that the risk has to be balanced against the benefit in any case.

Kenneth L (314)
Wednesday August 8, 2012, 7:27 am
Antonia, you are simply debating. Symptoms are usually manifested in behavior. I never said they were the same thing, FALSE. But you know more about such things as symptoms and behavior than the average person obviously. Why do I sense you are endlessly condescending and speak in self-superior intellectuality?.

I will say it again, the majority holding an idea does not equal truth. Personally, you can think and do whatever YOU want. Period. That's about it.

Let's see what some professionals and their expert opinions are, which is what they are paid for---

“There is not one shred of credible evidence that any respectable scientist would consider valid demonstrating that anything that psychiatrists call ‘mental illness’ are brain diseases or biochemical imbalances. It’s all fraud.” --Dr. Ron Leifer, Psychiatrist

“...there are no facts and data supporting the brain disease model and there are no facts and data supporting many treatments and many things that psychiatrists claim.” --Dr. Colin A. Ross, Psychiatrist

"Modern psychiatry has yet to convincingly prove the genetic/biologic cause of any single mental illness...patients (have) been diagnosed with 'chemical imbalances' despite the fact that no test exists to support such a claim...and...there is no real conception of what a chemical imbalance would look like" Dr. David Kaiser, Psychiatrist

"There has been no shortage of alleged biochemical explanations for psychiatric conditions (but) not one has been proven. Quite the contrary. In every instance where one was thought to have been found, it was later proven false". Dr. Joseph Glenmullen, Psychiatrist

"DSM labels are not only useless as medical ‘diagnoses’ but also have the potential to do great harm—particularly when they are used as means to deny individual freedoms, or as weapons by psychiatrists acting as hired guns for the legal system.” Dr. Sydney Walker III, Psychiarist

"These are tests (for children and adolescents) that have to do with neuroimaging, pictures of the brain, also with genetic surveys. But at this point, none of those tests are useful enough to yield any treatment utility" Dr. Steven Schlozman, Child Psychiatrist

."Why must the American Psychiatric Association pretend to know more than it does? DSM-4 (the Diagnostic and Statisical Manual of Psychiatry that lists all of it's 'mental disorders) is the fabrication upon which psychiatry seeks acceptance by [the profession of] medicine in general. Insiders know it is more a political than a scientific document.." Dr.. Loren Mosher, Psychiatrist

“We can manufacture enough diagnostic labels of normal variability of mood and thought that we can continually supply medication to you…But when it comes to manufacturing disease, nobody does it like psychiatry.”-----Dr. Stefan Kruszewski, Psychiatrist

(the DSM, the Diagnostic and Statisical Manual of Psychiatry) "provides the illusion that we understand our patients when all we are doing is assigning them labels.” Dr. Daniel Carlat, Psychiatrist

"We do not have a clear-cut lab test" to diagnose a chemical imbalance in the brain. He later stated, "In order to survive, we (psychiatrists) must go where the money is."--Steven Sharfstein, Ex-President, American Psychiatric Association

"It's not science. It's politics and economics. That's what psychiatry is: politics and economics. Behaviour control, it is not science, it is not medicine."
Dr. Thomas Szasz, professor emeritus of Psychiatry

"Going to a psychiatrist has become one of the most dangerous things a person can do."--Dr. Peter Breggin, Psychiatrist

Now don't invalidate or ignore what these experts and professionals have said, because of their number Antonia. They are the experts which you so grandly speak of and to dismiss them for that reason is stupid.
As you said, you are not an expert.


Kenneth L (314)
Wednesday August 8, 2012, 7:31 am
The above were some Psychiatrists. Here are some various other experts, which Antonia is not----

“No biochemical, neurological, or genetic markers have been found for Attention Deficit Disorder, Oppositional Defiant Disorder, depression, schizophrenia, anxiety, compulsive alcohol and drug abuse, overeating, gambling or any other so-called mental illness, disease, or disorder.”
— Bruce Levine, Psychologist

“ (regarding Psychiatry) Making lists of behaviors, applying medical-sounding labels to people who engage in them, then using the presence of those behaviors to prove they have the illness in question is scientifically meaningless. It tells us nothing about causes or solutions. It does, however, create the reassuring feeling that something medical is going on.”
—Dr. John Read, Psychologist

"Contrary to what is often claimed, no biochemical, anatomical, or functional signs have been found that reliably distinguish the brains of mental patients.” - Elliot S. Valenstien, professor emeritus of Psychology and Neuroscience

(Regarding psychiatry) "There is no reliability of diagnosis or science, it's just pseudo-science, it's pretend science" Dr. Margaret Hagen, professor of Psychology

"I, like most psychologists, believed that children with difficulty concentrating were suffering from a brain problem of genetic or otherwise inborn origin...It turns out, however, that there is little to no evidence to support this theory." L. Alan Srouffe, Professor Emeritus of Psychology

"It seems that we have been misled. Depression is not a brain disease, and chemicals don't cure it...the chemical cure of depression is a myth" Irving Kirsch, Professor of Psychology

"Psychiatrists had to invent their own book of diseases because pathologists would have nothing to do with them"
"The DSM....a great work of fiction. Every disorder in the DSM is invented"
Jeffrey A. Shaler, Professor of Psychology

"...(psychiatry's) wholly fraudulent claims that their diagnoses, such as ADHD, bipolar, OCD and depression are actual brain diseases when they are not." Dr. Fred Baughman, Pediatric Neurologist

“We are unaware that ADHD has been validated as a biological/organic syndrome or disease.” Gene R. Haislip, U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency

: “As yet no pathophysiology for the disorder (ADHD) has been delineated.” Paul Lever, M.D., U.S. Food and Drug Administration

...“no laboratory tests that have been established as diagnostic” (for ADHD). Stated in the DSM4 itself

"DSM5 (the next edition of the Diagnostic and Statitisical Manual of Psychiatry that lists all their 'mental disorders') will fail. It is not based in science. It has presumed the nature of mental disorder but has never proven it. Their presumptions are wrong. The best efforts by a group of highly qualified people failed earlier this year (2010), they just failed completely, just about laughable, in their attempt to define 'mental disorder'. Dr. Niall McLaren, Psychiatrist

Antonia Windham (6)
Wednesday August 8, 2012, 7:43 am
It appears we'll just have to agree to disagree, Kenneth.

Kenneth L (314)
Wednesday August 8, 2012, 7:56 am
Oh it's more than you and I Antonia. You'll have to agree to disagree with the experts and professionals I just quoted in the above two posts. Merely a simple debate or argument between me and you doesn't mean diddly.

Antonia Windham (6)
Wednesday August 8, 2012, 8:52 am
I've already answered that, Kenneth. I agree with the experts who're in the majority. You appear to agree with the experts in the minority (correct me if I'm wrong, of course, since that's only my interpretation of your multiple posts which appear to promote the idea that mental problems aren't medical in nature/an illness/disease/whatever word one chooses to use to convey the concept).

If that minority opinion ever becomes the majority, then my views will change accordingly and instantly. Since I defer to the expertise of the majority in this issue and won't have the slightest problem changing sides.

Kathy Chadwell (354)
Wednesday August 8, 2012, 12:54 pm
I have to applaud Kenneth and Antonia here, though they disagree, their debate was a very respectful one. We can all take a lesson from this.

Past Member (0)
Wednesday August 8, 2012, 5:38 pm
Thank you.

Lois Jordan (63)
Wednesday August 8, 2012, 6:28 pm
Glad to see so many here disbelieving Big Pharma. My personal "bible" is, "Prescription for Nutritional Healing," recommended by a friend in the 90's. It's full of great info about vitamins, minerals, enzymes....and tells you what foods contain them, as well as specific herbs, vitamins, etc. to help remedy specific illnesses. Mom was right, the best things in life are (nominally) free. This wonderful friend actually went into the desert and found certain plants, leaves....and made them into healing teas that really worked.
Other friends took many Pharms prescribed by their Drs. for "depression" and bipolar disorder. One has been on 100 mg. of Prozac daily for several yrs, (she moved away & I don't know how she is). Another was prescribed lithium, Wellbutrin, & that popular sleeping pill that makes you sleepwalk (sorry, can't remember its name)--she ended up in much worse shape.

Kenneth L (314)
Thursday August 9, 2012, 1:47 am
Antonia, you can do and think whatever you want So can anyone else. There's more than 7 billion other people on this planet. Let's leave it at that.
And for the last time, I say it again, the majority holding an idea does not make it true. Period.

Perhaps someday the majority of veterinarians will be prescribing 'doggy Prozac' as opposed to currently, only a minority do. May we all hop on the majority bandwagon then, lol. .

@Lois, as you probably know, a considerable number of people do not have an abiding faith or trust in gov't. funded science, programs, or education (which creates the many 'experts' in white lab coats with the learned degrees and diplomas on the walls who are so handsomely paid). A considerable number of people do not have an abiding faith or trust in the FDA, the CDC, the NIMH, conventional medicine, multi-billion dollar pharmaceutical giants (aka 'big Pharma'), the trials, studies, and research done by these same pharmaceutical giants, the financial ties between these drug 'scientists' and the doctors and psychiatrists prescribing their pills, and that they are an altruistic bunch of angels with the highest integrity and intentions towards their fellow man.
The basic premise and foundation of Psychiatry is that man is an animal. Which is why so many psychiatric drug tests are done on mice, rats and other lab animals. The Forced Swim Test is an example. Depending on how a mouse or rat behaves when put in a closed container of water, that data was used in creating a particular psychotropic drug for depression in people. But that's 'science'! lol

Another basic premise and foundation of Psychiatry and the use of psychotropic drugs is that a person is nothing more than chemicals and neurons in a brain. All feelings, emotions, desires, likes, dislikes, thoughts, ideas, anything and everything about a human being is simply the result of chemical combinations and neurons firing or misfiring in a brain. Which is why 'brain science' uses chemical compounds/psychotropic drugs regarding emotions ('depression'), behaviors, attitudes, etc.

In the end, every individual needs to do due diligence for themselves regarding looking for themselves and deciding for themselves about things, coming to their own conclusions about things. DO NOT let anyone else think or decide for you.


Vicynthia Tjahjadi (57)
Thursday August 9, 2012, 9:22 am
Thanks, Kenneth for the video and others who posted a few more.

desanka s (416)
Thursday August 9, 2012, 2:32 pm
This happy pill works well with cartoon characters, with people... hmmmm? However, for some people medication is the only option for anxiety problem and they are willing to put aside unpleasant effects in return for relief.
Thank you Kenneth!

Antonia Windham (6)
Friday August 10, 2012, 4:51 am
Kenneth, you said to me, "And for the last time, I say it again, the majority holding an idea does not make it true. Period." As if you're refuting some claim of mine to the contrary. However, I didn't say that the majority's automatically right. I said the opposite - that the majority CAN indeed be wrong, but are STATISTICALLY MORE LIKELY to be right than the minority.

Kenneth L (314)
Friday August 10, 2012, 9:11 am
Whatever. With a lot of science being funded by big gov't's., and trials, studies, and research done a lot by big pharma themselves, and financial tie relationships and conflict of interests that can affect scientific findings and concensus, these are factors that enter into the equation, it's not all cut and dried, and to simply nullify anything that a minority says is foolish.
As I say, you can think and do whatever you want Antonia. There's 7 billion other people. Nobody has to convince you of anything or agree with you about anything. That's a fact. As for 'statisically more likely' that's subject to however and whoever is evaluating. Statistics can be slanted, altered, and not not necessarily valid in evey view taken about them.
IBecause you have stated your opinion and views several times now on this thread, past that point you seem to be simply engaging the activity of simply making yourself right and others wrong. The conclusions you come to with the data you have about anything are not necessarily more correct or valid than anyone's else's conclusions. You state things as unequivocal fact when it's relative depending on viewpoint and evaluation. Anyone knows this about 'truth'.

Kenneth L (314)
Friday August 10, 2012, 9:15 am
The last thing I'm saying on this thread is you can think and do whatever you want, no matter how self-superior you think your intellect or conclusions are.

Antonia Windham (6)
Friday August 10, 2012, 11:32 am
If you've a liking for people not responding to incorrect statements you've made about their position and statements, Kenneth, then you might choose not to make incorrect statements to begin with but actually read their comments and base your own on what others actually say rather than what you've some incorrect thought they've said.

Nancy C (806)
Tuesday August 28, 2012, 9:37 pm
I've seen several exposes regarding big pharma's clandestine usage of drugs that don't work and/or are too dangerous for one ailment and rolled over for usage of another. They also travel worldwide to slide them into areas where testing isn't taken seriously. Big pharma's lies have been taken for granted. I've seen officials filmed in the act of agreeing to a lethal drug w/o any testing. The real sins lie amongst the antics of bedfellows in big pharma, insurance companies, and Congress. Thanx Kenneth.
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