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Wresting Gun Policy From the Hands of the Radical Fringe: A Q&A With Garen Wintemute

Health & Wellness  (tags: humans, health, illness, safety, science, society, risks, research, protection, medicine, family, ethics, abuse, business, americans, corporate, corruption, dishonesty, ethics, money, marketing, lies, politics )

- 1982 days ago -
Wintemute is one of the country's leading experts on the public health theory of gun control. He has long argued that gun violence is equivalent to a medical epidemic, and that, as such, public health measures ought to be taken to counter its spread.

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JL A (281)
Sunday December 16, 2012, 6:40 pm

The Nation
Published on The Nation (

Wresting Gun Policy From the Hands of the Radical Fringe: A Q&A With Garen Wintemute
Sasha Abramsky | December 16, 2012

The following is a Q & A with Professor Garen Wintemute, Baker-Teret Chair of Violence Prevention, at the University of California at Davis medical school. Wintemute is one of the country’s leading experts on the public health theory of gun control. He has long argued that gun violence is equivalent to a medical epidemic, and that, as such, public health measures ought to be taken to counter its spread.

Sasha Abramsky: What happened in Connecticut last Friday was by some measures an appalling aberration; yet by other measures it was all too predictable. How can we understand this event as something more than an aberration?

Garen Wintemute: We may very much want to understand and to predict. But predicting exactly who and where and when and what the body count will be is simply impossible – because no two of these events are alike. And one of the great mistakes is trying to prevent the last one – because the next one will be different. But will there be another similar event, will there be another body count? That’s an absolute certainty. Firearms are readily available. We have created ‘global gunning,’ much as we have created global warming. We have made a whole series of policy decisions that have made the widest possible array of firearms available to the widest possible array of people for use in the widest in the widest possible array of circumstances. And we are paying the price for those decisions; or, in this case, are children are paying it for us.

S.A. What can be done about this? You’ve got the issue of mental illness; the issue of gun control. You read about Syria’s chemical weapons, for example; they’re in a binary state – you need both elements to make them deadly. It’s the same thing here. You’ve got two elements. How do you stop them fusing?

G.W. We don’t know how big a role mental illness played here. But let’s step back; we have conversations like this at times when there’s been a mass murder, particularly of children, because we’re wired to see these catastrophes as salient events. But take Sandy Hook, Oak Creek, Aurora, Columbine, Virginia Tech, all of them together come to ninety-one dead. It’s awful. But we lose, on average, eighty-eight people every day to firearm violence in the United States, and we have more than two hundred people every day injured seriously enough to go to the emergency department. You ask me what we do? The answer is first what we do not do is try to figure out a way simply to prevent mass shootings. That won’t work. The one option we might have had in the past is closed to us now. That’s the option Australia took; they got rid of high capacity weapons. But we have nearly as many firearms in this country as we have people; our context is different. We could ban high capacity magazines. That would be fine. But there are tens of millions of them already in circulation. What do we do about those? We could ban further sales of assault weapons. But we need to understand there are millions of those guns in circulation in the U.S. already. Unless we are willing to recover those weapons, we are going to continue to pay the price for the decisions we have made over the last 30-50 years.

We need to have solutions that will make a difference in the presence of 300 million firearms. Our chance to emulate the model set by Britain and Australia and Canada is gone. The guns are here now. We all participated at one level or another in letting that happen. And we will continue to pay a price. But we can make a difference. We can make a dent, and that’s worth shooting for.

So we work to prevent firearm violence. We require a background check for all firearm purchases. Forty percent of gun sales in the U.S. do not involve a background check. Number two, we improve the data on which those background checks are run, so somebody whose mental illness is known in one state, that mental illness is known in all states. Improving the mental health records database would help us identify seriously mentally ill people so that they can’t buy guns. The third thing I’d recommend is we expand the criteria we now use for denying the purchase and possession of firearms. For example, under federal law we do not ban people from purchasing firearms for alcohol abuse; it doesn’t matter how serious the abuse is. We don’t ban people from purchasing firearms who have long records of violent crimes when those crimes are misdemeanors. If I beat my partner, I am prohibited [from gun ownership] for life. If I beat you up, nothing happens; I can buy guns the next day.

S.A. After what happened in Connecticut, it’s at least possible that there will be a momentum to a conversation on gun control. If it’s to be done well, what should it involve?

G.W. Assault weapons play a disproportionate role in violence generally. If we’re going to go after assault weapons, we’ll need to do so in a more comprehensive way than we did before. The two signature pieces of violence prevention legislation in the last 30 years have been the Brady Act and Assault weapons ban. The assault weapons ban was a great idea, it got watered down, and it’s been very difficult to show a beneficial effect. The Brady Act, denying the purchase of firearms to people who are prohibited, that’s been shown to be effective, but at the same time not to prevent firearms homicides; because forty percent of gun sales are not subject to the Brady Act because they are made by private parties. If you think you’re going to fail a background check, you don’t waste your time with a dealer; you go to private parties.

We know they [universal background checks and expanded denial-of-purchase criteria] are feasible, effective, and at the political level we know they’re supported not just by the general population, but by gun owners and even NRA members. Poll after poll after poll on background checks and broadening denial criteria. Gun policy in the U.S. does not reflect the priorities of gun owners, let alone the general public. It reflects the priorities of a radical fringe of gun owners.
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Lin Penrose (92)
Sunday December 16, 2012, 7:40 pm
Noted, thanks J.L.A., I do think there may be something 'viral' of a long living type, perhaps mass hysteria that can be fed (communications) in many ways over distances and time - and/or a genetic breakdown, relating to human violence against humans and against other living beings.

The NRA and like minded individuals and organizations, Groups, Governments, seem to be mentally geared to intense fear of others and lack of control. Mental problems -under cover of individual (human) rights, guided by mis-guided leaders of various sorts. I'd say we have species mental Problems of extreme proportions.

JL A (281)
Sunday December 16, 2012, 7:52 pm
I hate to say it, but the facts and evidence all align with all you say Lin. You cannot currently send a star to Lin because you have done so within the last week.

Giana Peranio-paz (398)
Tuesday December 18, 2012, 12:08 am
Noted. It's a problem that won't easily be solved as money is the root of all evil and it is more important than the death of children and treating sick human beings.

JL A (281)
Tuesday December 18, 2012, 12:12 am
You cannot currently send a star to Giana because you have done so within the last week.

Frans Badenhorst (582)
Tuesday December 18, 2012, 1:18 am
Giana, you are taking the words right out of my mouth........ very sad, but unfortunately, true...

JL A (281)
Tuesday December 18, 2012, 1:32 am
You cannot currently send a star to Frans because you have done so within the last week.

Arielle S (313)
Tuesday December 18, 2012, 6:39 am
We are indeed a fear-driven nation - if you don't wear these clothes, nobody will like you - if you don't use this toothpaste, your breath will stink - if you don't have 45 guns, someone will shoot you. I'm not sure how we change that but the ideas expressed in this article are a good start. Thanks, J.L.

Suzanne L (99)
Tuesday December 18, 2012, 10:23 am
On ABC news I heard that there are more outlets for gun sales than MacDonalds in the U.S.

Mary Donnelly (47)
Tuesday December 18, 2012, 3:23 pm
Thanks J.L. A.--good post.

l L (1)
Tuesday December 18, 2012, 3:27 pm
What you write is interesting Arielle S;

I have been thinking about just what living all about.
My opinion is the mental community is incompetent. Many things they cite as mental illness is "life"' the living in the world of this planet.
I.E... if you show the signs of being happy, you are mentally healthy. So to them, what exactly does this happiness look like and behave that, "one" has to worry about being or be deemed mentally healthy?

Another thing what is the life and mental state of the diagnostician? Are they so called happy?

Emotions... One is deemed mentally unhealthy when they cry or show emotion.. really? What stimulates emotions and are all subject to the response of emotions as a human? Should we be vulcan now? ( where to you go to take that class?)

Every government especially ours, lives by the code an eye for and eye a tooth for a tooth. And lying and manipulations; there is no shame. But like another writer pointed out on another site.. things that are the accepted norm in war must be turned off in regular society. In other words do as I say and not as I say and do.( A double standard.)

I thought about paranoia. I mulled that around awhile. They say if you are paranoid/suspicious you have mental health problems... really?
Not too long ago the world was in the "I Spy" mode. Now its the war on terror and radical one thing or another. It's okay to be paranoid when you are told it's fashionable but not otherwise.
A friend of my some years back pointed me to a website and I never forgot. She told me on it, (I don't remember how) you could find info about yourself and info of what you did on what day.

I was shocked. It took a lot of being followed around to log that. Now we have the patriot act and every other thing big brother has to spy on us, not counting whomever else.
Now they have the chip to put in you brain and the want to have access badly, cause even tbn has invested in this product and openly has talked about it.
We were not meant to be robots or puppits.

In the 20th century our mental health was tampered with by government with their blessings. The H.AA.R.P is a mind control device and a natural disaster invention. We can't say what the deal is
Mental health agents are jumpin up and down to get new minds to tamper with. If they do.. remember they can't fix nothing.
I say all of this because.. WE either go too far to the right or left in anything.
Scizophenia is a word used to cover anything, that has no cause or cure with the mind. Because no one knows understands how we are put together mind,body,spirit,soul,flesh,water, electric and minerals.. Its easy to say you are a defective brand. No one knows how these factions are meshed together and work. So the profession of mental health is flawed and incompetent. The thing about it is that they know it. We don't know it,but they are.
And lastly; we don't practice what we preach, and we expect the generations who come on afterwards to fall in line and do as we say but not as we say and do. Sooner or later we get old they are not and they have no respect for us. They would have come to their own conclusions about who they want to be and what works for them. My take on it. Just look around, what do you see.
And if you choose to do right and keep getting picked on.. it may appear not being nice is the better position to be in. All in the game of life....

Joanne Dixon (38)
Tuesday December 18, 2012, 6:34 pm
On the fear point, has everyone seen this leaked video from the NRA, prepared to propagandize its members (and proselytize for more)?

l L (1)
Tuesday December 18, 2012, 7:16 pm
thx joanne... i saw it.

Julie W (32)
Wednesday December 19, 2012, 1:22 am
'That’s the option Australia took; they got rid of high capacity weapons'.

They had a 'buy back' scheme. where the government paid for people's guns then destroyed them. Not sure if this would work in the US, as it needs a high degree of co-operation and willingness to part with them. I don't see much evidence of this.

Kerrie G (116)
Wednesday December 19, 2012, 3:37 am
Noted, thanks.

Patricia H. (440)
Wednesday December 19, 2012, 12:29 pm

JL A (281)
Wednesday December 19, 2012, 1:30 pm
CA and CA cities have had great success with weapons turn in moratoriums without even paying, which would add to the success. That should be workable in the US Julie! Thanks for sharing the video Joanne.
Excellent points Lyn. I've seen the data confirming those outrageous numbers Suzanne. You are welcome Mary and Arielle (and I agree).

JL A (281)
Wednesday December 19, 2012, 1:32 pm
You are welcome Kerrie.

l L (1)
Wednesday December 19, 2012, 2:15 pm
J.L.A can you share that data in another article presentation.?

I would like to see them.

l L (1)
Wednesday December 19, 2012, 2:20 pm
Did anyone know what was on the NRA's website before the pulled it down.. Or does anyone know if anything was changed? Does anyone know what's normally on it.
Reason I asked the young mans computer9Whatever you call) was smashed they say and info lost.Thereafter the NRA pulled their website... Any connection?
Wondering that's all.

JL A (281)
Wednesday December 19, 2012, 3:24 pm
Excellent questions Lyn! You cannot currently send a star to lyn because you have done so within the last week.

l L (1)
Wednesday December 19, 2012, 5:21 pm
Got your message...J.L.A. and okay

Nimue Michelle Pendragon Gaze (339)
Wednesday December 19, 2012, 5:43 pm
Thank you J.L.A., a green star for you, and I agree, Arielle, a green star for you too. I don't know what the answer is, but I am so glad I live in Australia.

JL A (281)
Wednesday December 19, 2012, 5:55 pm

"The most recent analysis of data from 23 industrialized nations shows that 87 percent of the
children under age 15 killed by guns in these nations lived in the United States. The gun
homicide rate in the United States for teens and young adults ages 15 to 24 was 42.7 times
higher than the combined rate for the other nations."
Explains why your community is safer than those in the US Nimue. Lyn, unintended accidental deaths, like from guns, is the second most common cause of death for children 0-4 (second to problems they were born with like genetic disorders) in age and the most common for children ages 5-19.

Missy G (24)
Friday December 21, 2012, 9:17 am

JL A (281)
Friday December 21, 2012, 9:30 am
You are welcome Debra

Paul Wellman (1)
Friday December 21, 2012, 10:59 am
Although I totally disagree with Professor Garen Wintemute's solution I really like his analogy of violence being talked about as “equivalent to a medical epidemic”.
If you look at mankind as an organism and you are a single cell in this 7 billion and counting cell organism and that we might all use a little antibiotic at some point to ward off the occasional but inevitable pathogen with a mental problem... Guns might make sense to you?
A clear head might see the wisdom of a well trained teacher (or two) discretely carrying a gun? Sounds like the principal in this case definitely had the courage. If she only would have had the training and been armed this situation could have come out much differently?
This sad stampede of Sheeple to a positively wrong and hurtful conclusion worries and saddens me. We need solutions not rambling dogma.
I predict that Dr. Gary North's assessment of the situation will prove (thankfully) to be true. Read here:
I repeat from other posts like this...
First I am neither a Right Wing Nut or A Left Wing Nut.
I have been around firearms, of all kinds, all my life. I am 65 years old. I am definitely a “gun enthusiast”.
When this old Left Wing chestnut would come up about the restriction of firearms (after whatever the current tragic event that would stir it up) my hay seed Okie family would say “Guns Don't Kill People! - People Kill People!” then laugh at these silly people. I still sincerely believe that is true.
I urge you to read this insightful The New York Times article about Adam Lanza:
Please HEAR the facts about Adams obviously terribly painful life experience and the total lack of intervention by ANYONE even though there is much talk, in this article, of the recognition of many problems, manifested by Adam, by everyone (it seems) that knew him. People that knew him said they were not surprised by his actions!!!
How can that be???
Violence is a disease and if we can't put out enough heart and resources to recognize and treat this disease I fear for our society.
As for the Left Wing Nuts that are stirring up this tired old “gun nut” story....
Shame on you for using legitimate grief and sorrow to stir up more hatred and fear to promote your silly ideas. That is definitely NOT what is needed.
I am sure that the Prison Industrial Complex is licking it's lips at the prospect of stricter laws as a solution to this issue. It will feed their inhumane institutions with more poor souls that will feed their bottom line and that in turn will feed our culture of violence. Around and around we go!
I wish us luck!

JL A (281)
Friday December 21, 2012, 12:18 pm
Thanks for your thoughtful response Paul--would like to share some of the actual data, facts and research about how guns elevate the risks of violence and death with you:

The health risk of having a gun in the home
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By Susan Perry | 12/17/12
REUTERS/Joshua Lott
The health risks of owning a gun are so established and scientifically non-controvertible that the American Academy of Pediatrics issued a policy statement in 2000 recommending that pediatricians urge parents to remove all guns from their homes.

Having a gun in your home significantly increases your risk of death — and that of your spouse and children.

And it doesn’t matter how the guns are stored or what type or how many guns you own.

If you have a gun, everybody in your home is more likely than your non-gun-owning neighbors and their families to die in a gun-related accident, suicide or homicide.

Furthermore, there is no credible evidence that having a gun in your house reduces your risk of being a victim of a crime. Nor does it reduce your risk of being injured during a home break-in.

The health risks of owning a gun are so established and scientifically non-controvertible that the American Academy of Pediatrics issued a policy statement in 2000 recommending that pediatricians urge parents to remove all guns from their homes.

Notice that the recommendation doesn’t call for parents to simply lock up their guns. It stresses that the weapons need to be taken out of the house.

Study after study has been conducted on the health risks associated with guns in the home. One of the latest was a meta-review published in 2011 by David Hemenway, director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center. He examined all the scientific literature to date on the health risks and benefits of gun ownership.

What he found was sobering, to say the least.
Accidental deaths

To begin with, having a gun in the home is a risk factor for serious accidental injury and death. As Hemenway points out, death certificate data indicate that 680 Americans were killed accidentally with guns each year between 2003 and 2007. Half those victims were under the age of 25.

Children aged 5 to 14 in the United States are 11 times more likely to die from an accidental gunshot wound than children in other developed countries.

Nonfatal gun injuries occur at the average rate of 20 a day in the United States — and that doesn’t include pellet-gun injuries (which average 45 day) or injuries that don’t involve a bullet wound (like powder burns and recoil injuries).

“One study of nonfatal accidental shootings found that the majority were self- inflicted, most involved handguns, and more than one third of the injuries required hospitalization,” writes Hemenway. “Injuries often occurred during fairly routine gun handling — cleaning a gun, loading and unloading, target shooting, and so on.”

An average of 46 Americans committed suicide with guns each day between 2003 and 2007. In fact, more Americans killed themselves with guns during those years than with all other methods combined.

Gun owners and their families are not more suicidal than non-gun-owners, research shows. No are they more likely to have a history of depression or other mental health problems.

But they — and their families — are at significantly increased risk of successfully taking their lives with a gun. The reason: Guns are more lethal than other methods.

One study found, reports Hemenway, that “in states with more guns, there were more suicides (because there were more firearm suicides), even after controlling for the percentage of the state’s population with serious mental illness, alcohol dependence or abuse, illicit substance dependence or abuse, and the percentage unemployed, living below the poverty level, and in urban areas.”

But “there was no association between gun prevalence and a state’s nonfirearm suicide rate,” he adds.

Two-thirds of all murders between 2003 and 2007 involved guns. The average number of Americans shot and killed daily during those years was 33. Of those, one was a child (0 to 14 years), five were teenagers (15 to 19 years) and seven were young adults (20 to 24 years), on average.

Children in the U.S. get murdered with guns at a rate that is 13 times higher than that of other developed nations. For our young people aged 15 to 24, the rate is 43 times higher.

“The presence of a gun makes quarrels, disputes, assaults, and robberies more deadly. Many murders are committed in a moment of rage,” writes Hemenway.

“For example, a large percentage of homicides — and especially homicides in the home — occur during altercations over matters such as love, money, and domestic problems, involving acquaintances, neighbors, lovers, and family members; often the assailant or victim has been drinking. Only a small minority of homicides appear to be the carefully planned acts of individuals with a single-minded intention to kill. Most gun killings are indistinguishable from nonfatal gun shootings; it is just a question of the caliber of the gun, whether a vital organ is hit, and how much time passes before medical treatment arrives.”

The possible health benefits of gun ownership are twofold: deterring crime and stopping crimes in progress. But there are no credible studies, says Hemenway, that higher levels of gun ownership actually do these things.

“The main reason people give for having a handgun in the home is protection, typically against stranger violence,” he writes. “However, it is important to recognize that the home is a relatively safe place, especially from strangers. For example, fewer than 30% of burglaries in the United States (2003-2007) occur when someone is at home. In the 7% of burglaries when violence does occur, the burglar is more likely to be an intimate (current or former) and also more likely to be a relative or known acquaintance than a stranger. Although people typically spend most of their time at home, only 5% of all the crimes of violence perpetrated by strangers occur at home.”

In fact, adds Hemenway, research shows that most self-defense use of guns is not socially desirable. He describes one study in which “criminal court judges from across the United States read the 35 descriptions of the reported self-defense firearm uses from 2 national surveys and found that, even if description of the event was accurate, in most of the cases, the self-defense gun use was probably illegal. Many were arguments that escalated into gun use.”
Real risks

“There are real and imaginary situations when it might be beneficial to have a gun in the home,” Hemenway concludes. “For example, in the Australian film Mad Max, where survivors of the apocalypse seem to have been predominantly psychopathic male bikers, having a loaded gun would seem to be very helpful for survival, and public health experts would probably advise people in that world to obtain guns.”

“However, for most contemporary Americans, the scientific studies suggest that the health risk of a gun in the home is greater than the benefit,” he adds. “There are no credible studies that indicate otherwise.”

Hemenway’s review appeared in the American Journal of Lifestyle Medicine and can be read in full online.

Jacqueline Gill (0)
Friday December 21, 2012, 12:53 pm
What is wrong with you People??? Seems you only have BALLS behind the barrel of a gun.. You live by the sword, you die by the sword rings a familiar bell. To destroy the futures of 20 innocent children is diabolical,all I can say is Thank you God for the laws we have here with regards to Guns, We have our problems in this part of the World, for sure, but NOTHING like you have in the USA. "The RIGHT to carry ARMS " WHY.. exactly WHAT are you afraid of??? Recreational flirting with guns in a controlled area,is fine I guess, if you're an enthusiast, but keeping guns where chiildren or Mentally unstable individuals have access is just plain ludicrous. I'm blessed I'm NOT living THERE is all I can say, and my heartfelt sympathies go out to all the Bereaved. Those Parents have been ROBBED of precious events of the future.

JL A (281)
Friday December 21, 2012, 1:06 pm
Thank you Jacqui for your heartfelt message providing a mirror to how the rest of the world, especially the civilized world that values the lives and health of their people, views the arguments for unbridled access to guns here in America. a green star headed your way.

l L (1)
Friday December 21, 2012, 2:00 pm
MUY INTRESANTE'.. Very interesting....
Well since this all began at the first news briefing, red flags and bells are going off all over the place with me.

I keep asking myself; what is wrong with this picture. WELL TO THE OFFICIAL implementation of our American way of living... A POLICE STATE......
We have hinted by prophecy that it was to show up on scene and now it is here.

Follow me if you will.... Since ...2000 this country has been headed in a direction of question...All master minded by ours truly....The Koch Industires and those buying our government make it plain what they are after. The tea Party and the constant rumblings Of the warning personalities of the NRA and our faithful CIA and republican party... I have been 2 days educating myself about the CIA and mind control and all of those involved in such from people who have jumped ship and has told their stories of the continuaing saga of the battle for minds.

I noticed that the firstg day this story aired, the narrative that was purposely put out there...BEFORE... they knew what the story was. I marveled on how we are being programmed to believe a narrative about someone being disgruntled Or even mentally ill. But they made sure that was the narrative.
Even with a piece of the story; they had the wrong infomation out there.
finally it was settle upon that it was Adam and Adam is disabled and mentally challenged a loner and whatever else.
To be honest; I am not sure what Adams story is. I would believe his dad or his brother if they told their own story and not coming from people, who I cannot validate. The buzz words loner and mentally ill ought scare everyone. We all fit the bill by their standards. I marvel over a few things; One how the republican party and big business managed to make sure they got added guns laws on the books via the state and the republican congress for gun carrying in schools and public, like a resurgence of the wild wild west. As well how they managed to make sure they put republican governors in office and what they did sfter they got in. They promised the world and gave us the world wind on every level of government. Depleted the budget by giving money back to the corps.. Cut domestic spending/programs, Mess with unions and teachers and pit us against one another. Doing the republican primaries; they had no shame to let us know what they were up to and to pay attention, they are true to their word, they are dismantling it all or trying to.
Stay with me... They are not ashame and I am not ashame to remind us... of

How convenient it is that this 20 yrs has done this bad thing.. How convenient we may never know... How convenient it is someone is in our face telling us that mental illness is the problem.. Are we ready for a micro chip to be mass planted in our heads? Well it's been waiting and ready for us.
Are you ready for a full police state, with all the bad things that have happened with a lawenforcement with a gun or taser? How many times have there been encounters in schools with law enforcement with misunderstandings and trouble with the kids? It works both ways you know.
Think about this; If everyone is armed, anyone can say I was scared for my life and I thought they had a gun and they didn't but they are dead. Some more mess. We go thru it now. Or... the kids get caught in the cross fire.. And that is another mess.
Today's news a kid was suppose to have made a threat to a school. Conveniently another stranger telling the story he was a "loner"... he was bullied... he was picked on.... what is really going on here?
There is something strange going on.
As well off as this family was; I am almost certain that they had more than one computer in their home. As well 2010 was the height of the tea party and Koches propaganda . It is said thats when this mother bought these guns. They had everyone who could see their view hiped up about those guns and them losing much.
So all of this argument why guns? Just look within. If this had not have happened to this extent, it would be business as usual.
But something is not right about this story. THE NRA took their website down and put a new one up and now they want good guys to fight the bad guys in schools. Something is amiss.
Next year this time we maybe writing we made a mistake and lost more freedoms. One will be freedom just to be left the freak alone.

l L (1)
Friday December 21, 2012, 2:20 pm
J.L.A... what care for the mentally ill. Except you put them away. There is no cure for anything known to man. If there is they are not telling.
We don't treat each other right period. The ones that do good but alot of this comes from man's inhumanity to each other. That is why I like unions.

Another thing our government is foul. They experiement on us against our will and knowledge and sometimes for sport. We are a mean species and the ones of us who aren't I acknowledge and bravo. That's why they guns.
We settle our scores times its is warranted or whatever. we pretend these things don't happen and we live in a perfect state of heaven. Not how it is.
Thank You J.L.A for the stats. They need to keep flashing before our eyes so that the scapegoat will not become the disabled; or mentally ill are broad brushed, when that is not the reason for the season.
The guy from oregon , the hawaiin was not a loner or mentally ill. How many have parents or themselves are connected to hate groups with guns and think they and they alone are 'enttitled to life or quality thereof.
Just look inside your ownselves. we know what they answers are and why the guns.

Someone broke into my apartment one year; and I was plotting on a bear trap. My thoughts... you can break in but you won't break out.. I guess I was mentally ill too. I was scare first at what it implied and then I was angry and I was going to fight back and show courage and my dark side.
The officer said it was against the law, so no bear trap; no nothing.

JL A (281)
Friday December 21, 2012, 2:31 pm
The mentally ill are far more likely to be victims of gun violence than to be the perpetrators Lyn--hopefully that will be remembered.
Your statements bring to mind the predictions made by George Orwell and Aldous Huxley--and I really hope we aren't at a point of relinquishing our freedoms to that extent.
I am somewhat reassured by the statements Obama made regarding addressing violence in our country when he directed VP Biden to take on a task force to address these issues (after the reinstatement of the easy statutes addressing automatic military grade weapons).

Yvonne Taylor (37)
Sunday December 23, 2012, 6:09 am
Lyn L. I am so sorry that your thoughts on mental health are such a "stigmatized" view. Unfortunately, this is the problem our country is facing- un educated views on mental illness, bullying in schools of anyone they deem "different", and denial that mental illness exists, especially if in their own family. I do agree that our mental health system sucks and is very expensive, this creates a danger to us all. EDUCATION OF MENTAL ILLNESS TO THE PUBLIC, IN SCHOOLS AS CLASSES AND PROGRAMS FOR ADMINISTRATION, TEACHERS AND STUDENTS NEEDS TO BE INCLUDED IN EVERY SCHOOL. I understand how hou came up with your opinions, but they are a little mixed up, and that is understandable.

Yvonne Taylor (37)
Sunday December 23, 2012, 6:27 am
Lyn L, I also wanted to say that much of what you said is true, but the assimilation of facts and then your conclusions are somewhat specious reasoning.

JL A (281)
Sunday December 23, 2012, 7:43 am
Thanks Ivy for helping focus the discussion here. The two models for mental health services used have been institutionalization or nothing for the masses. Early in Obama's first term he got passage of the Mental Health Parity Act requiring insurance companies to cover mental health like any other health condition. Unfortunately too many are uninsured or reliant on Medicaid where no services or, based on some states' policies like OH, only prescriptions and no other services including medication monitoring. Universal health care could do a lot to address this issue, too.

l L (1)
Sunday December 23, 2012, 9:22 am
Ivy thank you for the conversation. would you get back to me about what you mean by the word specious? Are you saying this cause I used the word a species referring to mankind as a specious? I am trying to follow you.

I.E " a loner, appearance of being unhappy, or depressed as if you should have the appearance of being happy all of the time as being normal. ( I think that thinking, in itself is crazy and illogical) ( even the person who says such things experiences life, just like everyone else) (some people smile all of the time and are getting the heck beat out of them) And paroanoia.. I already explained.

BTW.. Michael Moore has an excellent documentary on Current T.V called BOWLING FOR COLUMBINE.. I saw it twice and I think it is excellent.

If anyone wants to trust the mental health profession, fine. I don't. Educating the public on mental health will be just what it will be.. Flawed , cliches, people , who don't know how to treat each other giving verdict on a person more than likely in error. We have racism, and all kinds of isms and now, they have another tool in their arsenal to destroy someones life and livelihood.
But hey.. I can make all the sense I will and mankind will do just what they want to do until the damage is done to the right person and then we will react to that.... then.

On bullyism... It is a common thing. It hurts cause we are taught to love but the reality is we are contradictory.. We are, most of us taught to turn the other cheek and when doing so it becomes abuse with no one of integritity to change things in our favor. Our latest re-cant is.. don't see yourself as a victim or.. don't have a victim mentality. Maybe that helps "one" to deal with it mentally.. I see it as a cover to cloak the abuser.. As well... the teaching.."... blaming someone else for your dilemna".. I only buy that when it is true.. It is not true each and every time.. It is a lazy way of not dealing with the wrong done to people to bring any relief or judgement in their favor.

Lastly: I want to say as long as a bully does what they do best and the victim takes it; everything is fine. Maybe the target or targets just want to be a nice person, it's not that they don't have heart but they don't want to be violent. Yet what amazes me is this... as soon and that person(s) fights back or retaliates then the bullies are soooooooooooo afraid..

why is that? Couldn't it be reasoned that if someone treated you (the bully) Like done to the target; you would retaliate?

As far as fact.... I thought I gave reference in each case as to why I came to "a" conclusion(s).
I have been running my personal studies on human behaviors all of my adult life. I think most of us have.
What I couldn't understand.. I went and sought out the answers "like the saying ... walk a mile in my shoes"
I noticed that either a person of youth and experience( or lack thereof) may not understand where I am coming from. But that is okay... just keep living.. we are on different paths and coming from different directions of living.
If "one has been fortunate to not experience much or seen very much adversity, then their reactions and how they see things as facts and non facts are more ore less one or the other.
Our gov is foul..There are reports of such. Humankind is flawed even in places of moral and ethical positions.
We have things done on society that cause bad outcomes and that is hard to handle and accept.
So everytime a bright idea come up should we run to embrace it, cause it sounds good? Or should we weight all of the pros and cons and proceed wisely..
I am a loner.. I like it.. It guarantees me freedom and preserves my peace from the challenges and flaws that come with humans. I am paranoid cause .. we are spied on watched and stalked and to not be paronoid is illlogical. My last frontier is my home and my mind.. now you want to intrude on that with nonsense. I personalized this cause this makes it fact.
I don't want any flawed inferior person who has no experience in life telling me or giving me permission to be their clone.
I look down or those types.
I have mastered being a nice person and remain such despite all odds and challenges and bullies. I have learned how to cope..I have friends and family and... enemies.. and frenamies.. Theses are my facts and I share them and fight for my freedom from your flawed healthcare cause it is flawed.
As far as visions.. most religious people have visions and are not crazy. So I Have facts. And something is wrong with this push to scapegoat people and cite them as mentally ill according to the standards as they are now.Anything I have written is not conclusive to me.. It is public and has been said by many people across many spectrums and I have respect in what they have had to offer. As I do everyone here..

l L (1)
Sunday December 23, 2012, 9:44 am
Ivy; the topic of living is broad and trying to condense it May be something some other writer can interpret with better skill than me; however I hope/trust enlightenment will present itself and it will not seem that my assimulations and facts with my designed conclusions will be made clear. we have genuises amongsts us.
I watched a film today about a little boy with autism and I learned more about their genuis behavioral qualities.
J.L.A. I went looking for that article today I couldn't find it. Can you do a "link'?
If J.L.A I have gotten of the subject; I apologize. I thought covering every insight, that makes a topic a subject was allowed. I am still learning.

JL A (281)
Sunday December 23, 2012, 11:03 am
Lyn, here is a Mirriam Webster definition that might help answer your question:
spe·cious Listen to audio/ˈspi:ʃəs/ adjective
[more specious; most specious] formal : falsely appearing to be fair, just, or right : appearing to be true but actually false
▪ a specious argument ▪ He justified his actions with specious reasoning.
— spe·cious·ly adverb, formal
— spe·cious·ness noun [noncount] formal
▪ the speciousness of his reasoning

I think this is the link you wanted:

The article has links to the various reports/studies it mentions.

I don't think you've strayed from the topic--definitions of mental health are a component of any health approach to gun violence.

l L (1)
Sunday December 23, 2012, 8:20 pm
Okay; J.L. A.. Thank you for that. So she's telling me she doesn't believe me and she doesn't trust what I say or write to be fair as it seems I am trying to be.

Oh well.. such is life.
Time to move on... Thx again... no hard feelings at all..

JL A (281)
Sunday December 23, 2012, 8:45 pm
I think your conclusion above may not be true Lyn. Different types of people make decisions and form opinions in some very different ways. Her statements indicate that she believes your facts and observations yet sees that they could go with different conclusions.
Western philosophy is filled with such disagreement where formal logic states this, that and the other thing are true and thus something must be true--and others can identify examples where the something wasn't true.
Social science research is filled with persons doing case studies of one to a handful of cases (often people) who then try to apply what was true of their cases to all of a particular group of people (e.g., with a specific mental health diagnosis). It is also filled with those who collect data on large numbers of cases and do statistical analyses to see whether what they think is true is probably true or not. Neither is without error.

In my experience the word specious is used more often when the person was viewed as unintentionally wrong, or drawing a conclusion beyond what others viewed the evidence was strong enough for-- yet sincere in all they said.

Past Member (0)
Tuesday December 25, 2012, 6:49 am

Gloria picchetti (304)
Wednesday December 26, 2012, 6:30 am
No matter who says what about mental health the fact is we need gun control.

Spam flagged.

JL A (281)
Wednesday December 26, 2012, 9:06 am
Thanks for helping with the spam Gloria and your well-stated bottom line assessment of the immediate needs for public policy changes.You cannot currently send a star to Gloria because you have done so within the last week.
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