Sunday March 15, 2009, 7:37 am
THANK YOU MIMI, HUGS FROM TERESA

Sunday March 15, 2009, 7:41 am
I do disagree with the concept that Anti-Zionism automatically equates to hatred or Anti-Semitism.

No group of people has a "right" to nationhood based upon shared religious or racial characteristics - nor do they have that right based upon the fact that their ancestors, millenia ago, lived in a certain land.

Israel exists and will continue to exist. Like all nations, it was formed upon land once occupied by others (who, in turn, obtain that land from earlier "others"). Like all other nations, it acquired additional land through warfare. It is not unique in that respect. And its right to exist is a practical one - just as the United States has a practical right to exist, even though it was also built on land which once belonged to other peoples. If we do not acknowlege the practicality of that then every nation on the face of the earth can and must be challenged as to the legitimacy of its existence - while searching desperately through the mists of time to try and discover the earliest known inhabitants of that land so that it might be restored to their descendants (who, by modern times, would have interbred with other groups to such an extent that they would no longer be considered the pure descendants of the original inhabitants in any case).

I certainly support the continued existence of Israel, for a wide variety of reasons. But not because of any historic, racial, or religious right on the part of the Jewish people. And I certainly strongly decry any incidence of anti-semitism in this world.

Of course, Anti-Zionism can be (and certainly is, for many) a smokescreen for the Anti-Semitism they hesitate to bring forward. And some who object to Israel on purely political grounds have taken that dislike to such an extreme that in and of itself it becomes virulent hatred. But not everyone who rejects Zionism is anti-Jewish or has feelings of hatred towards Israel.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 7:43 am
Noted and passed on. Thank you, Mimi.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 7:46 am
Not only is it hate, it is the cowards attempt at hate while being socially acceptable. Condemn Israel, condemn Zionism and but of course - not Jews. This is without question the exact xenophobia that has existed for thousands of years, wrapped in a new package. Sympathy for Palestine, not support and encouragement for these people to actually work to build their own state, but rather to encourage the continuation of useless and stupid wars that benefit only those 'getting rich' at the expense of both the Jewish state and the still vague hope of a Palestinian state. For the future of the Palestinian people one can only hope that a leader will come forward and help them begin to finally achieve something positive. The continued involvement with terrorist activities will only lead to more death and destruction for both groups.

Care2 now seems to have it's own vocal and dedicated group of Jewish haters, those who choose to see only one side of every problem, and are dedicated to the destruction of Israel. These too are part of the cowards that claim an interest, even a sadness for the recent conflict. Yet these same people show little or no interest in the larger and true genocides in the world. One of many examples, but certainly one that should have more attention and focus of those who would claim to peace advocates, would be of course Darfur. The Islamic world is strongly in support of al Bashir and his continue murder of the non-Islam in Darfur. For shame that anyone would turn a blind eye to horrors of this. This is blatant hypocrisy.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 7:58 am
And I should have added that although the land which is now Israel certainly had a sizeable Arab (and other) population prior to Partition, there has always been a Jewish population in that land. Moreover, many of the so-called "indigenous" Muslim Palestinians did come from other parts of the world. And, of course, Palestine was conquered by the Muslims and taken from other and earlier peoples.

So the claim on the part of the Palestinians to the land of Palestine because of history, race, and religion are also moot for the same reasons as they are moot for the Jewish people.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 8:24 am
The best way to decide if anti-Zionism is hate, is to consider where the claims of Zionism is coming from. Are they from loving people or hating people. That should be able to answer the question, what concept is the phrase being used? So far, the only ones I've heard calling Isralis Zionists are from those who hate Israel. Has anyone used that phrase in a good way?

Sunday March 15, 2009, 8:31 am
Noted with thanks Mimi.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 9:28 am
Lindsey wrote "... although the land which is now Israel certainly had a sizeable Arab (and other) population prior to Partition, there has always been a Jewish population "

You will, Lindsey, of course, provide statistics to back up those statements you made about "always" ... won't you?

Sunday March 15, 2009, 9:31 am
Inhuman racist ideology: Zionist quotes

"Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly." Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, referring to the Arabs of Palestine, Complete Diaries, entry for June 12, 1895

Sunday March 15, 2009, 9:31 am
In our country there is room only for the Jews. We shall say to the Arabs: Get out! If they don't agree, if they resist, we shall drive them out by force." Professor Ben-Zion Dinur, Israel 's First Minister of Education, 1954, from History of the Haganah, 1956.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 9:32 am
We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." Israel Koenig, ‘The Koenig Memorandum,’ 1976.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 9:32 am
"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs." Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset quoted in New Statesman, June 25,1982 .

"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re‑election of General Shlomo Lahat as mayor of Tel Aviv, 1983.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 9:33 am
We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel ..... We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours ... When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do will be to scurry around like drugged roaches in a bottle." -- Israeli Chief of Staff Rafael Eitan, Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot, 13 Apr 83 and New York Times, 14 Apr 83 .

Sunday March 15, 2009, 9:37 am
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_prezionist_people.php

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/09/gorin-and-how-k.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine

Sunday March 15, 2009, 9:38 am
Deputy-Minister Boim and Knesset-Member Hazan declared: “All Muslims are murderers by birth. It is in their genes.”

If this had been said about the Jews on any TV program in Europe or America, the station chief would have been fired.
If this had been said about the Jews in any parliament in Europe or America, the member would have been forced to resign.
Only in Israel does such racist talk pass almost without reaction. In the State of "the Survivors of Racism", racism has now become routine. Gush Shalom advert in "Haaretz," 27 Feb 04.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 9:39 am
“The displacement of one people by another in Israel/Palestine, involving shooting deaths, home demolitions, land confiscation, impoverishment, and retaliatory suicide bombing, is taking place day by day. And yet the rest of the world makes no effective protest. World opinion is potentially a powerful force for change and has contributed to the resolution of other recent conflicts.” Elizabeth Barlow in ‘Speaking the Truth About Zionism,’ ed Michael Prior, 2004.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 9:40 am
just google 'racist zionist quotes, or even Zionist quotes and see the truth for yourselves what Israel is based on

Sunday March 15, 2009, 9:41 am
Between the time of the Jewish kingdoms and the 7th-century Muslim conquests, the Land of Israel fell under Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Sassanian, and Byzantine rule. Jewish presence in the region dwindled after the failure of the Bar Kokhba revolt against the Roman Empire in 132 CE and the resultant large-scale expulsion of Jews. In 628/9, the Byzantine Emperor Heraclius conducted a massacre and expulsion of the Jews, at which point the Jewish population probably reached its lowest point. Nevertheless, a continuous Jewish presence in Israel (Palestine) remained. Although the main Jewish population shifted from the Judea region to the Galilee,the Mishnah and part of the Talmud, among Judaism's most important religious texts, were composed in Israel during this period. The Land of Israel was captured from the Byzantine Empire around 636 CE during the initial Muslim conquests. Control of the region transferred between the Umayyads, Abbasids,and Crusaders over the next six centuries, before falling in the hands of the Mamluk Sultanate, in 1260. In 1516, the Land of Israel became a part of the Ottoman Empire, which ruled the region until the 20th century.
The Land of Israel, known in Hebrew as Eretz Yisrael, has been sacred to the Jewish people since the time of the biblical patriarchs: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Romans named Israel/Judah "Palestine" as a derogatory name.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 9:43 am
That is your justification for your personal hate campaign? Pathetic!

Sunday March 15, 2009, 9:44 am
No, anti-Zionism is not anti-semitism

Sunday March 15, 2009, 9:45 am
I would have to guess the Jew haters are just not getting enough dicussion these days so they look for places to spread more vile assaults.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 9:47 am
Oh Yes - a rose by any name. Hide as a coward, but with out any doubt one and the other are linked, that is most evident by your own continued and unabated assaults. No courage to say what you mean, just to pretend that one is some how separate?

Sunday March 15, 2009, 9:49 am
not personal hate, that solves nothing, nor does genocide which israel is guilty of back to 1948 actually by the actual definition.. Israel is a zionist terrorist aparthied state, do your own home work back to Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization

Sunday March 15, 2009, 9:54 am
I think that Lindsey makes a very thoughtful and logical argument. I don't know if it is possible to separate Zionism from most Jews anymore. Passover is just around the corner which celebrates the "Hebrew's" exodus from enslavement in Egypt and it's 40 year trek to what is now Israel. This little piece of real estate that sits on the most traveled trade routes in history and which has seen more blood than most anywhere in the world. How does one remove or separate something so embedded in a communal soul? For 2,000 years Jews have repeated "Next year in Jerusalem" at every Seder. I suggest to everyone to read "Oh Jerusalem" for a wonderful view of the national soul coming to fruition. I would also suggest that people get a better understanding of Arab history that is made up of many tribes of nomadic people with the others becoming city dwellers. Europeans at the end of WW I divided up the remains of the Turkish, (Ottoman), empire to create the modern map which included many Arab countries, formerly non-existent, and one Jewish country. I believe Jewish history always included Zionism but had to wait many years for a new word to describe it.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 9:56 am
assaults, I am just posting TRUTHS, you don;'t like that and have made that clear. There are millions of jews that are against zionism, and the state of israel. You support israel state terroism ethinic cleasning, genocide and war crimes. I am not a total pacifist, I believe in self defense.

Your comment makes no sense to me Kit, my father is jewish-russian, I am speaking out, obviously. Cowards do not.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 10:00 am
David millions of jews are against zionsim, zionism is a political ideology, not only religious.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 10:03 am
Mimi, also noted with thanks for all you do

Sunday March 15, 2009, 10:04 am
hamas has agreed to 2 state solution, israel has not. many do not want a 2 state solution, they want a 1 state solution, and a mix of peoples. and I the title is about anti-semitism/anti-zionism. but since you insist, Free Palestine and right of Return.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 10:14 am
And I also favor a two-state solution. But with no "right of return." Because statistically it is inescapable that eventually the Muslim population of Israel would before long far outstrip the non-Muslim population. And Jews (and members of other religions) don't seem to fare terribly well under majority Muslim rule. When we look at Muslim nations around the world, that fact becomes crystal clear.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 10:21 am
Zionism is gangsterism wrapped up in the mythology called the Bible. How much sense does "God told me to do it" make? People who murder and give that as an excuse are executed, go to jail or the looey bin.

The only reason Zionism was encouraged by the Brits is they wanted a European enclave in the Middle East.
The Brits love the game of "Lets you and him fight". They played it in Ireland for years. The same time they were promising Palestine to Zionists, they were promising theArabs something else.

Hate is useless against psychopaths.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 10:27 am
Just as many Muslim claims and assertions of dominance are "gangsterism wrapped up in the mythology called" the Koran.

One of the reasons why religion has no place in politics.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 10:29 am
Did anyone read about this Hamas 2 state solution in there charter? No, it was closer to a "final solution" than a 2 state solution.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 10:59 am
they have a right to recogize israel or not, increasingly many people are supporting a 1 state solution, some are predicting that israel will not exist in 20 years (the CIA, not the best for intelligence) . I posted an interview from a female hamas parlatarian, taken by code pink, why don't you listen to it.
lindsay, you just got a star from me :), later,

Sunday March 15, 2009, 11:08 am
Does anyone think it's a coincidence that along with these "anti-Zionist babbling" that one here's chants like "death to the Jews" or "the Germans didn't finish the job" or students being assaulted on campuses for wearing yarmulkes or the incredible upswing in antisemitism being reported around the world let alone comments made here on Care2? I don't.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 11:51 am
I have Jewish friends who became anti-Zionist after living in Israel. I don't think that is because they hate Jews.

It is very important to be careful about defining terms and delineating issues when it comes to this subject.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 11:53 am
I am not 'babbling' nor am I a coward, Kit knows nothing about me, nor medical termniology obviously and I am fed up with her hate filled personal attacks.

No one can deny that there are neo-nazi's lets not confuse that with intellgence, including millions of jews who are against zionism. As for anti-semitism and anti-zionism it has been a topic on care2 for years, jews use it as an excuse to protect themselves from any critism. Some use it as an excuse to bash jews. There is no critism of israel allowed, but hey, you can critize and make hate speech, including israeli leaders against others..

My father is jewish, my mother a gentile. I was discrimiated against since a babe by both sides of the family. I lived in a wasp neighbourhood, there were few jews, and thos ethat were, were frequently targests of bullies. I have fought hand to hand to protect them, I would do the same (if I was still able to pyscially) for anyone being perscuted indivdually. collectively, israel has brought this upon itself and needs to be reigned in.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 12:02 pm
Good point David. If Israel were not a state formed to allowed a protection for Jews the world over, if it were a nation devoted to the further enrichment of the lives of christians....we would not be having this debate.

All this because this one small country, struggling to exist happens to be a nation of Jews. Or so many people think. It is also a nation of democracy, all citizens have the right to vote, to hold office, to enjoy the freedoms of democratically elected government. People of all religions and nationalities live in Israel, not just Jewish people. Should the Palestinian people ever decide to build a country and not just work to destroy another, they may discover just what can be done in cooperation. All nation's have the right and need to defend themselves.

I see many that attribute their arguments to biblical prophecy, or to the rights of Palestine first. These are foolish arguments that have no basis in fact, they simply lack history to back them up.

No Cheryl you do not post truth - only your culled picks of sites that will support your already biased view. Where I wonder is the real proof that MILLIONS of Jews are non supportive of Zion? It's another one of your truths, no doubt.

Israel is a nation, and will remain as such. Final Solutions will not come so easily this time. With or without the philosophy of Zion, a national philosophy no different from any country on earth, Israel will continue.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 12:14 pm
Jews against Zionism

A list of websites opposed to Israel's policies

Contrary to the propaganda put out by Israel's supporters, Israel is NOT supported by the majority of the world's Jewish people. Ariel Sharon does not speak for all Jewish people. And being anti-Israel is not "anti-Semitic"

Sunday March 15, 2009, 12:17 pm
I agree with Steve B about being careful with terms. However the terms that are being abused here are words like Holocaust, Genocide, Israel=Hitler, massacre, resistance, indigenous people and war crimes to name a few. Anytime any person has to stoop to a level of using terms that have victimized a group and then turning it on the victim is beyond misuse of a term. It's a morally repugnant method of of drawing a emotional response from a group in which some of those terms were invented. It doesn't strengthen an argument it is outright hate. !500 deaths is horrible but it isn't a massacre nor is it in any stretch of the imagination a genocide. Genocide was invented after WWII to describe killing that was turned into an assembly line to wipe out 60% of a worldwide population of an ethnic group that were civilian. It was the total corruption of the civil service and intellectual elite. It was not the regrettable civilian deaths caused in an urban setting where that battlefield was chosen for political gain of an islamofacist terrorist regime.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 12:19 pm
NETUREI KARTA AROUND THE WORLD

Sunday March 15, 2009, 12:21 pm
Definition of genocide
Article 2 of the Convention defines genocide as

...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
– Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2[2]

Article 3 defines the crimes that can be punished under the convention:

: (a) Genocide;

(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
(d) Attempt to commit genocide;
(e) Complicity in genocide.
– Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 3[2]

Sunday March 15, 2009, 12:24 pm
The Neturei Karta is an organization within the Orthodox Jewish community which is dedicated to representing the hundreds of thousands of Orthodox Jews around the world who, out of loyalty to authentic Judaism, remain opposed to the Zionist movement, its embodiment the "Israeli" government and their ongoing occupation and aggression in the Holy Land
http://www.realnews247.com/neturei_karta_uk.htm

Sunday March 15, 2009, 12:27 pm
Israel is a terrorist state by definition: Chomsky »

Avram Noam Chomsky, 80, is an American linguist, philosopher, cognitive scientist, political activist, author, and lecturer. He is an Institute Professor emeritus and professor emeritus of linguistics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Chomsky is well known in the academic and scientific community as the father of modern linguistics. Since the 1960s, he has become known more widely as a political dissident, and a libertarian socialist intellectual.

Voniati: Though of Jewish decent, you have been repeatedly accused of anti-Semitism. How do you respond?

Chomsky: The most important comment about that was made by the distinguished statesman Abba Eban, maybe 35 years ago, in an address to the American people. He said that there are two kinds of criticism of Zionism (by Zionism I mean the policies of the state of Israel). One is criticism by anti-Semites and the other is criticism by neurotic self-hating Jews. That eliminates 100% of possible criticism. The neurotic self-hating Jews, he actually mentioned two, I was one and I.F. Stone, a well-known writer was another). I mean that’s the kind of thing that would come out of a communist party in its worst days. But you see, I can’t really be called anti-Semite because I’m Jewish so I must be a neurotic self-hating Jew, by definition. The assumption is that the policies of the state of Israel are perfect, so therefore any kind of criticism must be illegitimate. And that’s from Abba Eban, one of the most distinguished figures in Israel, the most westernized … praised, considered a dove
http://www.propeller.com/story/2009/02/19/israel-is-a-terrorist-state-by-definition-chomsky/

Sunday March 15, 2009, 12:29 pm
I have a great little exercise for people who believe that there are millions of Jews that don't support the State of Israel. Take a pencil and write down fifty Jews that you know personally who don't support Israel. Can you even name 50 Jews you personally know? That's another issue.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 12:29 pm
right to resistance, and yes, masscre it is.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 12:30 pm
David the links are there, just click on them, want more.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 12:38 pm
If I go to these links will that give me an excuse to support an organization that advocates my death, the denigration of women, the use of homicide bombers in pizzerias, does not support freedom of religion, the press, the right to dissent. Do you imagine there would be any political doctrine that gives me permission not to look at those policies?

I don't.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 12:38 pm
Kit i post truth, you just don;t like it, you are in denial

Sunday March 15, 2009, 12:48 pm
Truth is not propaganda and so far that is all you offered you and your coterie of Jew haters. I saw the sites you posted, and thanks for the laugh. I do know who Noam Chomsky is, and his past and current stand on many issues beyond Israel.

As I said this seems to fit well with your choice of views, therefore I will not attempt a discussion of reason or logic with one who can not deal in either. You propagate hate and claim it to be truth, you choose to see one side, so how could anyone debate with that?

Most will look for fairness and balance, you choose neither. Therefore this half-baked excuse for a discussion is over on my part. Anyone can place a web-site online and proclaim anything, that is certainly not proof, only another desperate attempt to valid your need to condemn a nation, again - Pathetic.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 12:51 pm
One last thing - you did offer proof of one thing. By posting the delineation of genocide, you have shown that is it in fact the desire of Islam to commit genocide against Israel.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 12:59 pm
Israel is neither trying to wipe all Arabs off the face of the earth nor is she trying to kill all Palestinians. Had Israel planned to commit genocide, that state of affairs could long since have been achieved. With perhaps a terrible price to pay in the form of potential war with other nations objecting to such, of course. But still achievable. And yet, perhaps 1,500 died in the most recent engagement - with approximately 4,000,000 Palestinians still remaining. The conflict is war - not genocide.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 1:04 pm
Noted.....Thanks Mimi. Thanks for sending to me Beatrice.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 1:49 pm
israel is guilty of genocide since 1948

Sunday March 15, 2009, 2:05 pm
Cheryl,

I have found Kit, Lindsey, David and Beatrice to be very honest and they are the type of people that you would want to have as friends. They have qualities that are to be admired including decency and integrity. All of us could learn something from people with those type of qualities!

If you were to open your mind, you might learn something!

Sunday March 15, 2009, 2:06 pm
"israel is guilty of genocide since 1948 "

Now there is the fascist in you. You have arrested, tried and found Israel guilty of Genocide despite the fact that there is not the tiniest semblance of Genocide occurring. The closest thing to Genocide occurring there is in the Hamas Charter which out right states that there purpose is to liquidate the State of Israel and to kill Jews. BTW the Neturei Karta would not hesitate a second on displacing all of your pals there if they could justify that the messiah came. They are also a tiny Hassidic sect that represents a tiny fraction of Hassidic Jews let alone the entire Jewish population. Were you able to name 50 Jews you actually know that are against the State of Israel? Were you able to name 50 Jews you actually know since you were able to define a "True Jew".

Sunday March 15, 2009, 2:37 pm
I am not posting personal friends names here. true jew, listen to you. facist it is, israel.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 2:37 pm
One hesitates to take seriously a person who openly loathes Israel, complains about the treatment of Palestinians in Gaza yet fails to condemn the organisation responsible for their suffering, Hamas. One would also point out that the government supported ill treats and abuses the Native peoples, yet no complaint is made about that, possibly because they are living on stolen land! They also use Israeli designed computer software and hardware yet would like to have Israel blockaded - hmm, what does that tell you?

It says to me that there is a real relationship between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. It tells me that hypocrisy rules and that we need to take such behaviour seriously because it leads to ghettos and true apartheid!

Sunday March 15, 2009, 2:39 pm
btw I don't track , i came back for some of my links. true jew, which defintion are YOU going by. lol

Sunday March 15, 2009, 2:53 pm
Well, I do NOT think anti-Zionism is anti-Semitic/anti-Jewish. I believe Israel will have to "allow" a Palestinian homeland & share Jerusalem with it. Better Leaders on both sides will be needed to "fix" the Middle East. Hopefully Obama's admin. will learn from the Bu$h League mistakes & intense cruelty it emboldened..

Sunday March 15, 2009, 2:55 pm
As I understand it, the State of Israel grants and denies citizenship on the basis of ethnicity. Does that matter to anybody?

Sunday March 15, 2009, 3:21 pm
Home > Backissues > 0999 > Israeli Textbooks and Children’s Literature Promote Racism and Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs
Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, September 1999, pages 19-20

Special Report


Israeli Textbooks and Children’s Literature Promote Racism and Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs

By Maureen Meehan
Israeli school textbooks as well as children’s storybooks, according to recent academic studies and surveys, portray Palestinians and Arabs as “murderers,” “rioters,” “suspicious,” and generally backward and unproductive. Direct delegitimization and negative stereotyping of Palestinians and Arabs are the rule rather than the exception in Israeli schoolbooks
http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0999/9909019.html

Sunday March 15, 2009, 3:31 pm
Steve B, you seem reasonable, so far, so I will address the citizenship question you raise. Israel like all countries controls immigration. Now, they are not going to grant unfettered citizenship to people that are at war with her. Arabs, Druze, Bahai, Bedouins and many others have full citizenship in Israel. Israel has even granted East Jerusalem, (Arab sector), the right to vote but they choose not to. Arabs have several political parties is Israel and have served in the cabinet and those that choose can serve in the army. Arabs don't have to serve if they don't want. Druze and Bedouin Arabs tend to serve in the army.

After WWII and with the experience of the world not allowing Jews to emigrate from Nazi Germany Israel established the "Law of Return" for Jews. It essentially states that no Jews will be barred from Israel and that from now on Jews will always have a place to go. It also grants immediate citizenship to Jews for the aforementioned reason. This in no way stops other ethnic groups from apllying for citizenship it says that others have to go through a longer process as practiced by most countries. Did you know that Palestinians are barred from owning land, many professions and citizenship from Lebanon and many other Arab countries?

I'm sorry Cheryl I misquoted you I forgot that you also decide what is authentic Judaisim while you are passing out judgments.

"...,of thousands of Orthodox Jews around the world who, out of loyalty to authentic Judaism"

Sunday March 15, 2009, 3:33 pm
Steve, according to the 2008 Israeli Census, the citizens of Israel are broken down demographically as follows:

76% are Jewish (5,435,900)
19.4% are Arab (1,375,600)
4.6% are Other (302,400)

Therefore, fully 25% of Israeli citizens are non-Jewish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel

Sunday March 15, 2009, 3:34 pm
Don't you find it odd how those with such hate, intolerance, fear, and anger want to attack others, fail to notice that their profile is fading away and can't be found!

Sunday March 15, 2009, 3:37 pm
When Zionism is used to celebrate a unique culture and to form a sense of community, it can be a positive concept. When it is used to harm or denigrate those it sees as "outside" or "other" it becomes just as vile as any other "ism."

Sunday March 15, 2009, 4:01 pm
Racism in Israel on the rise -Association for Civil Rights in Israel publishes annual report; reveals country overwhelmed by racism, restriction of personal freedoms, discrimination, especially towards Israeli-Arabs. Report not surprising, say Arab MKs -, 23:51 / Israel NewsThe Association for Civil Rights in Israel's (ACRI) report on civil rights in Israel paints a bleak picture: Increasing racism, restriction of personal freedoms and discrimination even within the Knesset walls – and that's just scratching the surface.
do read on here:
http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3480345,00.html

Sunday March 15, 2009, 4:05 pm
your little group is very good on hate and personal attacks I have made none. Israel is a terrorist aparthied state, that is guilty of ethnic cleasing, aparthied, war crimes, ongoing. you have no shame that you support israelsactions. not all israelis do, not all jews do. Some you have in common and always on this subject is personal attacks. those speak of yourselves. good day

Sunday March 15, 2009, 4:11 pm
Bye

Sunday March 15, 2009, 4:12 pm
NOTED MIMI. HUGS

Sunday March 15, 2009, 4:38 pm
If one was anti-Semetic one would be opposed to both indiginous Jews and Arabs as both are Semites, so the term anti-semetic is a little redundant in this conflict; however Israeli fascits are anther thing entirely and are inflicting their own brand of "holocaust' on the Palestinians. There is little difference between the blockade and bombing of civilians in Gaza to the Nazi blockade of the Warsaw ghetto; both are equally reprehensible.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 4:44 pm
CSB has been posting things which Zionists would rather not have known. That many Jews condemn israel's actions...for that she's called a " Nazi"!

Enter the Zionist world and it's like the Ma Hatter's Tea Party with machine guns.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 4:46 pm
After reading all of these comments and then getting to the one by Cheryl S who said she has made no personal attacks, I nearly fainted with that lie before my eyes. I've not seen many spew the hate she has spewed here today and all the excuses she made up for it. The only ones who want Genocide are the Hamas who say they want to kill all the Jews. No Jew has come forth and said they want to kill all Palestinians. So there is the truth right there. Of course you won't recognize it, it seems to be a rarity in your logic.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 4:49 pm
However John the term anti-semite has been used to describe Jew haters for many, many years. If you have a problem with terminology please bring it up with dictionary publishers. There are many differences between an armed terrorist group firing misses into a country for years as opposed to a group of private citizens being rounded up, made to wear a yellow star, placed in a walled enclave to await deportation to a death camp for no other reason than being Jewish. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence would or should laugh or cry at such ridiculous comparison's.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 4:51 pm
What are we talking about:

From wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

"Zionism is the international Jewish political movement that originally supported the reestablishment of a homeland for the Jewish People in Palestine. The area was the Jewish Biblical homeland, called the Land of Israel (Hebrew: Eretz Yisra'el). Since the creation of Israel, the Zionist movement continues primarily as support for the modern state of Israel.[1]...."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism

"Anti-Zionism is opposition to Zionism, the international Jewish political movement that established a homeland for the Jewish People in Palestine (Hebrew: פלשתינה‎ Palestina), and continues to support the state of Israel.[1] Opposition to Zionism has changed over time and has taken on a spectrum of religious, ethical, political or military forms. Some include, opposition to the creation of a Jewish state prior to the appearance of the messiah, objection to the idea of a state based on maintenance of a Jewish majority, differing democratic values and differing dimensions[2] or rejection of Israel's right to exist in any form.

"The legitimacy of anti-Zionist views has been disputed into the present day, along with the relationship between anti-Zionism and antisemitism. Some commentators argue that anti-Zionism represents fair opposition to Israel or its policies, particularly in the occupied territories.[3] Others contend that to the extent anti-Zionism represents an opposition even to Israel's existence, it is inherently antisemitic,[4] but many Jews are anti-zionists.[5] A range of other views regarding the various forms of anti-Zionism is discussed and debated.[6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13]"

Sunday March 15, 2009, 5:08 pm
There was an excellent article published in Al-Jazeera last month explaining why the situation in Gaza is not comparable to the Warsaw Ghetto and further explaining the difference between the Gaza situation and genocide. A portion reads as follows:

"Yet, however horrific the situation in Gaza, it does not meet the definition of genocide used by the main bodies that prosecute such crimes, such as the European Court of Human Rights, the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia and the International Court of Justice.

All of these bodies define genocide as involving the intention to bring about the "physical-biological destruction" of a large enough share of an "entire human group" (national, ethnic, racial or religious) as to put the group's continued physical existence in jeopardy.

The Warsaw Ghetto was used by the Nazis to confine Jews into the smallest possible space, eventually in preparation for their ultimate extermination - which became official Nazi policy within a year of the ghetto's creation.

Out of an initial population of over 400,000 Jews, 100,000 had died of disease and starvation by the time the uprising began in 1943. To be comparable, by 2007 over 300,000 Gazans would have to have died from similar causes.

Ultimately, more than 300,000 Jews were shipped to the Treblinka extermination camp and murdered. At most, only about 200 Jews survived the uprising.

Ninety-eight per cent of Warsaw's Jews perished. More broadly, about 63 per cent of Europe's pre-war Jewish population were killed during the Holocaust.

The roughly 6,500 Gazans killed by Israel since it unilaterally withdrew its soldiers and settlers in 2005 equals 0.4 per cent of the population of the Strip."

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/crisisingaza/2009/02/20092191518941246.html

Sunday March 15, 2009, 5:14 pm
David a dead civilian and/or child is a horror whoever perpetrates it, whatever the supposed the valid reason. Now is the time for Israel to make peace, because when the Arabs overthrow their repressive regimes and America loses interest and believe me it will happen then it will be too late. As Ghandi said "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".

Sunday March 15, 2009, 5:22 pm
Cheryl.....very interesting quotes. Just goes to show the truth about the racism and hate that some Israel people can and do spew. Thank you for posting.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 5:37 pm
OK John who does Israel make peace with? What are the terms you propose?

Sunday March 15, 2009, 6:18 pm
Well I'm not sure David, but I would suggest the people whose land they occupy; whatever the rights and wrongs of todays issues the initial facts stand for themselves, they were invaded in 1948 and their homes and land stolen by foreigners; despite the fact that the area might well be the spiritual home of the Jewish faith the people who came were definitely foreigners with no indiginous claim to the area whatsoever so that's probably the best place to start. Terms? Well I'd go for the two state solution and sooner rather than later because once the Arabs get rid of their Washington orientated dictators and the Hispanic vote becomes huge in the U.S.; as you're probably aware they are most likely to favour a non-interventionist view of the entire world; about 2025 time will have run out. What really gets to me is that because of America, Britain(I'm a European Scotsman) and Israel etc. I who have no quarrel with these people can't go to about a third of the planet without being considered guilty by association. For instance when I lived in Turkey and Lebanon and travelled through the Middle East and Asia in the 70's if I'd been killed by a bomb or shot it would likely have been an accident; now I'm a target.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 6:59 pm
Kit,
you're dead wrong about the origin
of the name "Palestine". Palestine
is the land of the Palestinians, who
were known, 3,000 years ago, as the
Philistines. Maybe you remember them?
One of their number was a guy called
Goliath.
Not all Zionists are Jews, and not all
Jews are Zionists. This is the problem
with labels.
I'm not reading alot of hate here, Kit,
except of course what's coming from you
and David R......but, I would have expected
no less.
Thanks, Mimi.
noted.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 7:21 pm
"now I'm a target."

Now you know how many, many Jews feel. History changes and the world actors change but we continuously are being targeted. That's why Theodore Herzl came up with Zionism. When the world closed it's doors on European Jewry and nearly 50% of my ethnic group including Aunts, Uncles and cousins were murdered. The world is very good at giving us sympathy but we don't want or care for it. Jews have been in, what is Israel, continuously for 3,000 years. The invasion you speak of was by 5 Arab armies and only The Jewish partition of Palestine was not overrun. The Jordanians occupied the West Bank from 1948 until 1967. During that time not only were Jews barred from there religious places but house were built all along the "Western Wall' leaving only a small portion showing. All the synagogues in East Jerusalem were destroyed and all of the Jews were forced to leave. The Mt. Olives cemetery was desecrated and the tombstones used to pave roads. The Gaza strip was occupied by Egypt who established all of those refugee camps. The Golan was used by snipers and in 1966, when I was 14 and visiting, an Israeli was killed by one at a kibbutz we were at the day before. I would believe this "indigenous people" argument if I had heard any of it prior to 1967. The PLO was established prior to 1967but not to drive the Jordanians and Egyptians out but back then it was called from sea to sea , Jordan River to the Mediterranean"and the 3 no's.

So, once again, I ask with who and what conditions do you propose because it's really easy sitting around blaming Jews for you becoming a target and not the Islamofacists that target Jews and crusaders. How do you make peace with an organization that says all Jews should die. Read the Hamas charter because that and Mein Kampf would make a great 2 book set for your library.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 7:27 pm
Actually Tim after reading your posts in the past, I would expect exactly what you wrote. "Israel is evil" gee, I hope that is a close enough quote to measure up to your 'standards.'
As ususal with people that have a grudge against all things Jewish and Israel your wrong again.

The name Palestine refers to a region of the eastern Mediterranean coast from the sea to the Jordan valley and from the southern Negev desert to the Galilee lake region in the north. The word itself derives from "Plesheth", a name that appears frequently in the Bible and has come into English as "Philistine". Plesheth, (root palash) was a general term meaning rolling or migratory. This referred to the Philistine's invasion and conquest of the coast from the sea. The Philistines were not Arabs nor even Semites, they were most closely related to the Greeks originating from Asia Minor and Greek localities. They did not speak Arabic. They had no connection, ethnic, linguistic or historical with Arabia or Arabs.

The Philistines reached the southern coast of Israel in several waves. One group arrived in the pre-patriarchal period and settled south of Beersheba in Gerar where they came into conflict with Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael. Another group, coming from Crete after being repulsed from an attempted invasion of Egypt by Rameses III in 1194 BCE, seized the southern coastal area, where they founded five settlements (Gaza, Ascalon, Ashdod, Ekron and Gat). In the Persian and Greek periods, foreign settlers - chiefly from the Mediterranean islands - overran the Philistine districts.

From the fifth century BC, following the historian Herodotus, Greeks called the eastern coast of the Mediterranean "the Philistine Syria" using the Greek language form of the name. In AD 135, after putting down the Bar Kochba revolt, the second major Jewish revolt against Rome, the Emperor Hadrian wanted to blot out the name of the Roman "Provincia Judaea" and so renamed it "Provincia Syria Palaestina", the Latin version of the Greek name and the first use of the name as an administrative unit. The name "Provincia Syria Palaestina" was later shortened to Palaestina, from which the modern, anglicized "Palestine" is derived.

This remained the situation until the end of the fourth century, when in the wake of a general imperial reorganization Palestine became three Palestines: First, Second, and Third. This configuration is believed to have persisted into the seventh century, the time of the Persian and Muslim conquests.

The Christian Crusaders employed the word Palestine to refer to the general region of the "three Palestines." After the fall of the crusader kingdom, Palestine was no longer an official designation. The name, however, continued to be used informally for the lands on both sides of the Jordan River. The Ottoman Turks, who were non-Arabs but religious Muslims, ruled the area for 400 years (1517-1917). Under Ottoman rule, the Palestine region was attached administratively to the province of Damascus and ruled from Istanbul. The name Palestine was revived after the fall of the Ottoman Empire in World War I and applied to the territory in this region that was placed under the British Mandate for Palestine.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_name_origin.php

Sunday March 15, 2009, 7:43 pm
Thanks Kit that was a terrific summation of the historical progression of the name Palestine.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 8:06 pm
Nighty night everyone and especially those that stand up to the hate/Jew hatred here at Care2

Sunday March 15, 2009, 8:22 pm
Faced with truth they run and hide. You cannot educate individuals whose sole effort is to find information that fits their own agenda. No more certainly less than what we attempt to bring up our children to know as "learning."

They never include all the information of begging the arab population to stay time after time. That all lands were paid for other than those kept after the 3 day war which was for security and has been practiced since time began. Begs the question of how Russia can say anything about this issue with Poland, Chechnya, Afghanistan, etal in their recent history. I digress. We wouldn't assimilate Jewish refuges, Europe would not give them sanctuary, the world basically turned their back on a whole refugee population simply due to their religion. Once they were allowed to settle in the area now known as Israel, is it any wonder they want to simply be allowed to exist safely. ALL the surrounding arab countries lured the so-called Palestinians away with promises then threw them back realizing having them disadvantaged would work in their favor and they certainly didn't want them in their countries., So much for Islamic charity to their own much less others. They cherry pick only those articles that support their side often out of context and certainly out of date. I have read every post on every anti-Israeli site and they are all so full of hatred, bigotry and pure evil hearted individuals I am sickened how little humanity has learned in just over 50 years. The anti-jewish cadre has been not so patiently waiting until the LAST holocaust victim dies so they can rewrite history. When a catholic bishop denies the holocaust, which killed hundreds of thousands of Catholics you have to wonder about the overall intelligence of humanity as a whole.. Sorry this whole issue is breaking my heart and sickening to my soul, this continual victimization of a whole people simply due to their culture and religious beliefs, yet again.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 8:24 pm
Well David, I don't like the Islamist bombers any more than I like the Israeli army or for that matter the IRA(of whom I'm a qualified supporter) when they're killing civilians and non-combatants; after all they're just trying to get foreign invaders out of their country too. Like all terrorists the end justifies the means, well that doesn't make it right. Why are your innocent aunts and uncles killed by the Nazis any more precious than some Palestinian's innocent aunts and uncles killed by the Israeli airforce? It's only a matter of kinship and empathy. G W Bush said we want to get the terrorists. So they bombed Afghanistan just like Israel bombs Gaza. If you're being bombed from 30,000 feet I doubt that it's any less terrifying than being bombed in the local cafe. Neither is right and both are indefensible. Terrorism is just a matter of political perspective really. Let's not forget who started the bombing of the innocents and hotels etc. in the Middle East or is that particular fact one that the supporters of the Israeli State choose to ignore?

Sunday March 15, 2009, 8:35 pm
David I don't hate Jews, let's not roll out that old chesnut, I just don't like fascist states Jewish or not; what do my relationships with Jewish people have to do with that? I know it's a cliche but I have good Jewish friends some of us agree and some of us don't and we argue, but we remain friends. I have Arab friends both for and against what Islam does we also argue, but we don't hate each other for our opinions. I find a lot of the people who are most vociferous about situations overseas have never travelled and have no real understanding of what the world is really about and how much the majority of people are the same and just want to live in peace and harmony. It's time to put on a backpack and leave Kansas Dorothy.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 8:51 pm
John I need to sleep but I am going to address your thoughts. First I don't know you long enough to know whether your a Jew hater or not. I could role out a plethora of quotes by quite a few people here that have said things like;
"The reason Jews are so hated is because they are so hateable"

"And so, why/how does Israel have this power?"
They own the majority banking (central bank and Federal Reserve),
media, entertainment and much of big business.
They control much of congress and government.
They have possibly the most powerful lobby in the US.
This is how they did it in Russia, Germany and
why they were run out of other countries.
This much control by a special group should not be allowed.

"The Jews brought the holocaust on themselves"

The middle one was said on a post about the conference on racism at Durban. You have brought up some good points and then I answer. I ask who does Israel negotiate peace with and what's your proposal and I don't get an answer.

You say"Like all terrorists the end justifies the means, well that doesn't make it right." and then contradict yourself and say "Terrorism is just a matter of political perspective really"

The difference between Hamas and the IDF is that the IDF does not specifically target civilians where there is no doubt who Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah target.

Goodnight sir

Sunday March 15, 2009, 11:02 pm
Cheryl, bravo for speaking truth. Tim what a wise heart you have. Truly the only anti semites are the zionists themselves.
I don't think though that some of the people on this forum are really capable of understanding though...they are too busy playing with themselves!!!

Sunday March 15, 2009, 11:22 pm
I do not hate Israelis, but I am sick and tired of them playing the same character in any situation "The poor victims" when in reality their government tries to extend their frontiers by force supported by US administration. Killing Palestinians it was considered just an accident, but killing a Jewish is a crime. What kind of justice is that?
The Holocaust was a terrible experience for the Jewish population, however the new generations continue crying and considering themselves as victims as well. I am really sorry for what happen then, and I understand the pain, however it is over.
The only victims recognized for me at this time are the mothers and fathers who lost their children on the Gaze Street not long ago. All that civilians who were trapped by two enemies, and paid with their lives for being at the wrong place and the wrong time when destruction polluted Gaze.

Sunday March 15, 2009, 11:27 pm
Sorry David, but I've never thought that and most rational people I know think that no-one but the Nazis were to blame for the holocaust. Racists are madmen and generally have never had anything to do with the people they profess to hate the most, but arrive at these conclusions through ignorance.
I went to school with many Jews in Scotland, these people invited me to their homes to stay and made me welcome and one of the family as did many Arab families that I met while travelling. It is hard to equate any of these people with the atrocities that happen in the Middle East and elsewhere. As I said most people I have met around the world just want to live in peace and harmony. most of the time I just despair about mankind even though I know that comparatively few drive this insanity; unfortunately many people are swayed by their hate. i.e. Germany in the 30's and 40's. When I played in a band in Germany in the 60's you couldn't find any older Germans who supported Hitler and I always wondered who were all these people at the rallies. Let's face it David it's like we're sheep.

Monday March 16, 2009, 12:23 am
Reading some awful comments here........, that are very insulting. You are all good strong activists, don't rip each other apart.... Reading these makes me think a new label is needed...Anti-Anti-Zionism. Tim is right, there are only a couple people writing such hateful things. I am half Hawaiian and half Cherokee, with some spice sprinkled in here and there..., The United States TOOK the Hawaiian Island for military purposes, and they TOOK the mainland from the native Indian tribes.

My complaining or insulting isn't going to change any of it. I licked the wounds and continue learning, healing and servicing, until my last breath. There are other cultures that have LOST their HOMELAND. I have been watching Israel do the samething to another culture of people, as the United States did to the Hawaiians and Native Indians, who also tried to fight back with their primative weapons. Now, THAT is pathetic.

Cheryl, star coming your way, and blessings to you and yours. Many of us know the deadly game that still continues between these nations. Keep shining gal...much love...namaste

Monday March 16, 2009, 3:59 am
David; ''The difference between Hamas and the IDF is that the IDF does not specifically target civilians where there is no doubt who Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah target.''

''The IDF lies. It lies on a grand scale, as when it claims that the massive home demolitions in Rafah are simply a security measure to find smugglers’ tunnels (which could be found much more accurately by equipping with ground sensors the already fully-fenced border between Egyptian and Palestinian Rafah), through which ever more apocalyptic weapons are being smuggled that threaten to alter the balance of power between the Palestinians and the second most modern army on earth. In 2002, the alleged smuggling of “surface-to-air missiles” was the IDF’s justification for the home-destroying destruction of Operation Root Canal in Rafah; this year's Operation Rainbow was justified by the pretence that it was necessary to stop smuggling in of “Katyusha rockets”. And when the respective operations were over, and neither SAMs nor Katyushas were found, no one called the IDF on its lies; no-one asked why, if the Palestinians really have SAMs, they have not used one in four years of fighting; and if they have Katyushas why are crappy homemade Qassems landing on Sderot, rather than Katyushas on Ashqelon? Because at some level we understand that you don't raze thousands of homes to search for 2 or 3 hand-hewn tunnels, that there is something else altogether going on here.

But it's just easier to accept the lie than face the reality of ethnic cleansing and collective punishment, all paid for by us.

And the IDF lies on a smaller scale.

It lies when it says it is forced to shoot dead stone-throwing children (200 shot through the head so far), because they are used as human shields by Palestinian gunmen who hide among them: gunmen that in four years of intensive coverage have still not been spotted by international eyewitnesses and reporters [1].

It lies when it says it uses lethal force only when soldiers' lives are in danger, even when international observers have personally witnessed the shooting of children who pose no danger to the troops on the ground [2].

It lied when it said that Asma (16) and Ahmed (13) Mughayer were killed by a Palestinian bomb on the roof of their home, and not by the Israeli sniper stationed on the roof overlooking their house... even though the only marks on their bodies are a single shot through the head.

It lied when it said that one of its tank crews had to kill Ahmad Abu Aziz (6) and his 13-year-old brother, Jamil, because they were part of a crowd that was threateningly approaching a tank, when in fact video footage showed they were shot at point blank range by a tank that surprised them as they rode their bicycles in the street and tried to ride away.

It lied when it said it had no way of knowing who killed Dalal al-Sabagh, who was hanging out laundry on her roof when she was shot between the shoulder blades by a single shot fired from an Israeli sniper position overlooking her house.

It lied when it said it didn’t fire a tank shell into a crowd of civilians, decapitating four schoolboys and killing four other civilians as they watched a firefighter at work in Jabalia refugee camp… but international TV footage showed that it had.

It lied when it denied that an assassination team in Nusseirat refugee camp had used an illegal flechette munition that had indiscriminately killed as many as fourteen bystanders and horribly maimed many more, and even produced video footage “proving” it was telling the truth.
It would no doubt still be flaunting the same footage today as proof of its phoney story were it not for the decency of a single Israeli Knesset Member, Yossi Sarid, who knew from a classified security briefing that the IDF was lying about Nusseirat, and forced it to confess by warning that unless it owned up, he would release the classified details to the media.

And it is lying about the death of Iman al-Hams.''

In the Gaza Strip, Israel is making war against an asymmetric enemy it can’t see – and won’t make peace with - by shooting devastating hi-tech weapons into the paths and alleyways of most crowded refugee camps on the face of the earth, knowing full well that a large proportion of its victims will invariably be civilians and especially children. (Half of the inhabitants of Gaza’s camps are under 16 years of age).

And then it has to lie about why all those civilians are dead by making up demonizing stories about Arabs not loving their kids and using them as “human shields”, because then it’s the Arabs’ fault that the IDF has blown their heads off as they stand in their doorways [3], or make bread in their backyard [4], or sleep in their own beds [5], or dare to stray off their usual path to school and wander within range of an IDF guard post.

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2004/10/_whenever_i_hea.html

Is anti-zionism anti semetic?- http://www.care2.com/news/member/130107083/1058176

Monday March 16, 2009, 6:05 am
Well the hate has come out over night with " if I say it or post it it has to be right" frame of mind or
I can find a site called Goebellsofcyberrabia with a million unsubstantiated charges of which none can be verified and toss it into a posting, oh yeah it doesn't matter what the topic is, and like Hitler and his Brown shirts try disrupting a group of people that are of a different mindset. I guess that proves the point that anti-Zionism is hate

Monday March 16, 2009, 6:31 am
Zionism is the movement for a jewish nation-state in Palestine/Israel, with Jerusalem as its capital. There were already a huge number of Indigenous people living in that land when modern Israel was founded (mainly muslims and christians and jews) - and most of those people did not want a jewish nation there... in response, Zionism has oppressed those people (killing 70,000 non-jewish people - while only 7,000 jewish people were killed, and expelling huge numbers of people, and then using military force to keep the now millions of Indigenous refugees from returning to their homes, and using military force to occupy and blockade the Indigenous people who remain in their land).

So that is zionism. Some jews are zionist, some jews are not zionist. Some non-jews (e.g. christians) are zionist, and some are not.

We can be against zionism, without hating zionists or jewish people or christians. That is obvious to anyone who understands the human mind.

Some people are anti-zionist and hateful. I think most people who are anti-zionist are angry at zionists, but do not hate zionists. I know that I do not hate anyone - though I do get angry at zionists and all other people who support oppression and human rights abuses.

Monday March 16, 2009, 6:38 am
I do not agree that anti-zionism is based in hate... I have studied this subject thoroughly and
so I know what I say

Monday March 16, 2009, 7:05 am
David R. says,
"Now I'm a target".......
only because you made yourself one.
Kit & David, you want to be careful
what you say about me, because I have
a tendency to become what I'm accused of being.
I'm trying to be a gent here, but that's not
carved in stone.....capiche?

Monday March 16, 2009, 7:41 am
I will answer the article's question with a question:

"Is anti-Zionism hate?"

Is it "hate" to be against colonialism, landtheft, oppression, racism, mass-murder, ethnic cleansing, genocide, etc.?

Monday March 16, 2009, 7:50 am
Excuse me Tim, is that some sort of threat? Say what pleases you, I really don't care. I have not made any personal attacks I simply declared Cheryl's attempt at logic - faulty at best. She whines about personal attacks and you and the "gang" come running to her rescue. This was a debate about some rather simple concepts. Does a nation have a right to self defense, is it anti-Zionism (anti-Jewish) rhetoric hate language? Your crowd can see this only through the slanted and artificial lens of the propaganda issued by a media that supports the same brutal tactics of Hamas. No one that supports the idea of the nation of Israel has even once on any of these threads supported the destruction of Palestine, yet all of your gang supports the end of Israel. Therefore, any discussion based on that sort of one way thinking is basically useless. You simply can not think beyond your preconceived ideas.

You fancy yourself a gentleman and yet make not so vague threats? Foolishness. I really don't care what you say Tim, it is totally predictable as is each one of the postings to date by this "gang" of folks that work so hard to defend the indefensible. I wonder how people can defend a group that would intentionally put children on the front line of a battle field, that would not protect children. I wonder when nearly endless attempts and pleas for peace gain only more rocket attacks, that you still blame the wrong people. Your 'group' simply makes it abundantly clear that the only peace you support is the end of all Israelis and all that those words imply.

Monday March 16, 2009, 8:11 am
it is abutandly clear that many are brain washed with zionist israeli propoganda and the media of course that does not allow any critizim of israel GOD FORBID. But hey spread the zionist hate ideology that has been practiced for ages and THATS OK TO YOU, but when it is staring you in the face look at your response, it is one of hate and denial.. How can anyone defend zionist israel and it's ethnic cleasning, genocide, lets not forget war crimes, since 1948 is beyond my and many peoples comprehension as the more of the truth comes out past their white washed propoganda, as well as main stream media. People have right to self defence, palestinians, never had much of a chance, that they have survived at all under the brutality of israel, supported by other countries is stunning, and a testament to their will.

I have been for a 2 state solution, first to 1967 boarders, then 1948 more stolen land, but the best ultimately would be a 1 state solution, considerting the factions on boths sides and the usa, eu, and israel i don't know that ever will happen.

Monday March 16, 2009, 8:14 am
Kit you and several of your freinds have made personal attacks, this nothing new from your little group, often it is all they have to respond with. You keep spewing the same retoric, our minds are open to what has been perpertrated on palestinians by israel your's clearly is not.

Monday March 16, 2009, 8:23 am
And still you defend those who prevent any chance of peace. Still you defend those who would kill all Israelis, or is it just those who are not Islamic? Still you defend the policy of using children as "warriors."

Monday March 16, 2009, 8:50 am
Tim what exactly are you accused of being? BTW the "I'm a target" was quote from John that I was responding to. Kit, it's not worth responding to certain people. They are the new brown shirts who have swooped in to disrupt a dialogue that disagrees with there, hmm is the word thought or is that giving them too much credit? I say let them have at it because by there postings people will see that many, many anti-Zionists are about hate in general and hating Jews in particular.

Monday March 16, 2009, 9:17 am
http://www.care2.com/news/member/956805373/1084589

Great article Cheryl...thankyou!!!

Monday March 16, 2009, 9:36 am
Kit I think you have brought some deep insight into a topic area that brings out the worst in some people. Unfortunately the worst may be there best. They consider themselves 'enlightened" and "progressive' yet they ally themselves with organizations that denigrate and at times kill women, that use there children to clear mines as Iran did, that believe in some middle ages caliphate, that openly declare there intent is to kill Jews and Christians soon after as they are crusaders, do not believe in some of the most basic civil liberties like freedom of the press, of speech, of assembly and of religion, believe in stoning and beheading as there form of capital punishment I think then they should stop beating around the bush and scream to the heavans "Kill all Jews, Crusaders and Infidels" because that's who they support..

Monday March 16, 2009, 10:03 am
no, we advocate for a free Palestine and right of return, and their right to govern, and much of their land back and that ethnic cleasning, and israeil state terorism stop NOW.

Monday March 16, 2009, 10:04 am
oh yes and to stop usa aid to israel that is compicant in this to have a stronghold in the middle east

Monday March 16, 2009, 10:10 am
Dear David and Kit, again...they are simply proving what the article asks. By spitting out zionists as typed by Tim, that is proof positive that is exactly what it is, hate. Case closed. When confronted with accurate history the name calling starts up. It's petty, childish and shows the intellect reflected by these individuals. Anyone who reads these posts and is not one of their "herd" will see the truth.

Monday March 16, 2009, 10:36 am
Well David as I see this, the problem here is a nearly obsessive need to justify all things done in the name of Palestine, while vilifying all things done by Israel. I have had these discussions with some who once lived in Palestine and some fairly radical Islamist, and yet we find areas of agreement. Of course these people did not rely on only creative history but factual history. To acknowledge both sides have made mistakes is an obvious concession, to also acknowledge that today as in the past Palestine lacks for any form of leadership is also to simply acknowledge the obvious.
Fortunately, people on Care2 have absolutely no say in larger questions of what will or will not happen in this dispute or any other. All countries that have the means make choices as to who they will or will not support, a decision made by governments for purely strategic reasons.

Hamas and Hezzbollah take great pride in the ability to destabilize the people they have taken over, call it an election and you deny the tactics used to gain this election. Any group that states as it purpose to destroy another is no longer a legitimate governing body but aptly named as a terror group. Inflammatory words do not aid in achieving the goals of peace, they certainly do not further the supposed goals of the Palestinian people to get on with life in the lands the now have. A body that represents the goals of peaceful coexistence would have an excellent opportunity to find support and help from not only Israel but other governments. Obviously a two state solution is the ultimate answer, but somehow that seems to mean to many that Palestine will have say over the government of Israel while Israel should have no say over the governing over of the Palestinian lands. That sort of condition would not work any where so why should it be expected to work in this situation? I think both sides of this particular question are exhausted by rhetoric, that is not to include the so called leadership of Hamas/Hezzbollah - as they will not concede to any form of peace and why should they, their stated goals are not to promote the welfare of the people they represent but to further the goal of total destruction of Israel, meanwhile bringing death and destruction to the people they should be protecting. It is sad that people choose to side with these deceptive and cruel people, but I guess a justification for anything can be created.

Monday March 16, 2009, 11:04 am
And that works both ways, Anita:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world
http://www.adl.org/main_Arab_World/default.htm
http://christianactionforisrael.org/antiholo/arab_anti2.html
http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/2002/0617/antisemitism/arab.html
http://www.meforum.org/396/muslim-anti-semitism

If you want to see hatred, institutionalized racism against the Jewish people (and Christians and so many others), just step across the borders of most Muslim nations.

Of course, as a woman, I really would advise you not to step across those borders since so many of those countries aren't real user-friendly to the female sex as well.....

Monday March 16, 2009, 11:06 am
Well said Kit. My point exactly.

Monday March 16, 2009, 11:11 am
Kit I agree with you whole heartedly. as I do with Kristy. They are very good at copying and pasting but not so hot about justifying this bizarre alliance that stands for everything evil in this world. One small step for rational peole and one giant leap back into the middle ages for supporters of Caliphate and sharia law. These are the same people that put a death sentence out on Salman Rushdie because he dared write about a different view of Allah and who murdered Van Gough in Holland. It's incredibly similar to what happened in Germany. The people elected him not believing what he clearly wrote in Mein Kampf. In order to accomplish a short term goal they made a bargain with the devil. The saddest thing is that for 60 years people have been telling the Palestinians that they will get what they want through war. 60 years later they are still in refugee camps set up by there Arab brothers. During that same period of time A state was created in Israel that now boasts the 6th largest GNP, Nobel Prizes, Advances in agriculture, technolgy and in medicine. All Arabs that are citizens of Israel have the same opportunities as the Jewish citizens. 60 years of lying to those poor souls while there leaders pocketed billions. It's like they are co-dependents giving in to the never ending cravings of being considered a victim. They have been victimized but by there own leaders or leaders of othe Arab or Moslem countries who use there plight to blind the world about there wish for weapons of mass destruction I have even seen some of these people justify nuclear proliferation because of there blind hatred. Does anyone feel safer with Iran having nukes? or is this going to start a nuclear arms race between the Sunni and Shia?

Monday March 16, 2009, 11:13 am
For the consideration of all participants in this discussion, a 1947 letter to the American people, from King Abdullah... BTW, I support the peaceful folk on both sides of this issue.

The Definitive Statement on The Israel-Palestine Issue
By His Majesty King Abdullah

The American Magazine November, 1947

I am especially delighted to address an American audience, for the tragic problem of Palestine will never be solved without American understanding, American sympathy, American support. So many billions of words have been written about Palestine—perhaps more than on any other subject in history—that I hesitate to add to them. Yet I am compelled to do so, for I am reluctantly convinced that the world in general, and America in particular, knows almost nothing of the true case for the Arabs. We Arabs follow, perhaps far more than you think, the press of America. We are frankly disturbed to find that for every word printed on the Arab side, a thousand are printed on the Zionist side. There are many reasons for this. You have many millions of Jewish citizens interested in this question. They are highly vocal and wise in the ways of publicity. There are few Arab citizens in America, and we are as yet unskilled in the technique of modern propaganda. The results have been alarming for us. In your press we see a horrible caricature and are told it is our true portrait. In all justice, we cannot let this pass by default.

Our case is quite simple: For nearly 2,000 years Palestine has been almost 100 per cent Arab. It is still preponderantly Arab today, in spite of enormous Jewish immigration. But if this immigration continues we shall soon be outnumbered—a minority in our home. Palestine is a small and very poor country, about the size of your state of Vermont. Its Arab population is only about 1,200,000. Already we have had forced on us, against our will, some 600,000 Zionist Jews. We are threatened with many hundreds of thousands more. Our position is so simple and natural that we are amazed it should even be questioned. It is exactly the same position you in America take in regard to the unhappy European Jews. You are sorry for them, but you do not want them in your country.

We do not want them in ours, either. Not because they are Jews, but because they are foreigners. We would not want hundreds of thousands of foreigners in our country, be they Englishmen or Norwegians or Brazilians or whatever. Think for a moment: In the last 25 years we have had one third of our entire population forced upon us. In America that would be the equivalent of 45,000,000 complete strangers admitted to your country, over your violent protest, since 1921. How would you have reacted to that?

Because of our perfectly natural dislike of being overwhelmed in our own homeland, we are called blind nationalists and heartless anti-Semites. This charge would be ludicrous were it not so dangerous. No people on earth have been less "anti-Semitic" than the Arabs. The persecution of the Jews has been confined almost entirely to the Christian nations of the West. Jews, themselves, will admit that never since the Great Dispersion did Jews develop so freely and reach such importance as in Spain when it was an Arab possession. With very minor exceptions, Jews have lived for many centuries in the Middle East, in complete peace and friendliness with their Arab neighbours. Damascus, Baghdad, Beirut and other Arab centres have always contained large and prosperous Jewish colonies. Until the Zionist invasion of Palestine began, these Jews received the most generous treatment—far, far better than in Christian Europe. Now, unhappily, for the first time in history, these Jews are beginning to feel the effects of Arab resistance to the Zionist assault. Most of them are as anxious as Arabs to stop it. Most of these Jews who have found happy homes among us resent, as we do, the coming of these strangers.

I was puzzled for a long time about the odd belief which apparently persists in America that Palestine has somehow "always been a Jewish land." Recently an American I talked to cleared up this mystery. He pointed out that the only things most Americans know about Palestine are what they read in the Bible. It was a Jewish land in those days, they reason, and they assume it has always remained so. Nothing could be farther from the truth. It is absurd to reach so far back into the mists of history to argue about who should have Palestine today, and I apologise for it. Yet the Jews do this, and I must reply to their "historic claim." I wonder if the world has ever seen a stranger sight than a group of people seriously pretending to claim a land because their ancestors lived there some 2,000 years ago! If you suggest that I am biased, I invite you to read any sound history of the period and verify the facts.

Such fragmentary records as we have indicate that the Jews were wandering nomads from Iraq who moved to southern Turkey, came south to Palestine, stayed there a short time, and then passed to Egypt, where they remained about 400 years. About 1300 BC (according to your calendar) they left Egypt and gradually conquered most— but not all—of the inhabitants of Palestine. It is significant that the Philistines—not the Jews—gave their name to the country: "Palestine" is merely the Greek form of "Philistia." Only once, during the empire of David and Solomon, did the Jews ever control nearly—but not all—the land which is today Palestine. This empire lasted only 70 years, ending in 926 BC. Only 250 years later the Kingdom of Judah had shrunk to a small province around Jerusalem, barely a quarter of modern Palestine. In 63 BC the Jews were conquered by Roman Pompey, and never again had even the vestige of independence. The Roman Emperor Hadrian finally wiped them out about 135 AD. He utterly destroyed Jerusalem, rebuilt under another name, and for hundreds of years no Jew was permitted to enter it. A handful of Jews remained in Palestine but the vast majority were killed or scattered to other countries, in the Diaspora, or the Great Dispersion. From that time Palestine ceased to be a Jewish country, in any conceivable sense. This was 1,815 years ago, and yet the Jews solemnly pretend they still own Palestine! If such fantasy were allowed, how the map of the world would dance about!

Italians might claim England, which the Romans held so long. England might claim France, "homeland" of the conquering Normans. And the French Normans might claim Norway, where their ancestors originated. And incidentally, we Arabs might claim Spain, which we held for 700 years. Many Mexicans might claim Spain, "homeland" of their forefathers. They might even claim Texas, which was Mexican until 100 years ago. And suppose the American Indians claimed the "homeland" of which they were the sole, native, and ancient occupants until only some 450 years ago!

I am not being facetious. All these claims are just as valid—or just as fantastic—as the Jewish "historic connection" with Palestine. Most are more valid. In any event, the great Moslem expansion about 650 AD finally settled things. It dominated Palestine completely. From that day on, Palestine was solidly Arabic in population, language, and religion. When British armies entered the country during the last war, they found 500,000 Arabs and only 65,000 Jews. If solid, uninterrupted Arab occupation for nearly 1,300 years does not make a country "Arab", what does?

The Jews say, and rightly, that Palestine is the home of their religion. It is likewise the birthplace of Christianity, but would any Christian nation claim it on that account? In passing, let me say that the Christian Arabs—and there are many hundreds of thousands of them in the Arab World—are in absolute agreement with all other Arabs in opposing the Zionist invasion of Palestine. May I also point out that Jerusalem is, after Mecca and Medina, the holiest place in Islam. In fact, in the early days of our religion, Moslems prayed toward Jerusalem instead of Mecca. The Jewish "religious claim" to Palestine is as absurd as the "historic claim." The Holy Places, sacred to three great religions, must be open to all, the monopoly of none. Let us not confuse religion and politics. We are told that we are inhumane and heartless because do not accept with open arms the perhaps 200,000 Jews in Europe who suffered so frightfully under Nazi cruelty, and who even now—almost three years after war’s end—still languish in cold, depressing camps. Let me underline several facts.

The unimaginable persecution of the Jews was not done by the Arabs: it was done by a Christian nation in the West. The war which ruined Europe and made it almost impossible for these Jews to rehabilitate themselves was fought by the Christian nations of the West. The rich and empty portions of the earth belong, not to the Arabs, but to the Christian nations of the West. And yet, to ease their consciences, these Christian nations of the West are asking Palestine—a poor and tiny Moslem country of the East—to accept the entire burden. "We have hurt these people terribly," cries the West to the East. "Won’t you please take care of them for us?"

We find neither logic nor justice in this. Are we therefore "cruel and heartless nationalists"? We are a generous people: we are proud that "Arab hospitality" is a phrase famous throughout the world. We are a humane people: no one was shocked more than we by the Hitlerite terror. No one pities the present plight of the desperate European Jews more than we. But we say that Palestine has already sheltered 600,000 refugees. We believe that is enough to expect of us—even too much. We believe it is now the turn of the rest of the world to accept some of them.

I will be entirely frank with you. There is one thing the Arab world simply cannot understand. Of all the nations of the earth, America is most insistent that something be done for these suffering Jews of Europe. This feeling does credit to the humanity for which America is famous, and to that glorious inscription on your Statue of Liberty. And yet this same America—the richest, greatest, most powerful nation the world has ever known— refuses to accept more than a token handful of these same Jews herself!

I hope you will not think I am being bitter about this. I have tried hard to understand that mysterious paradox, and I confess I cannot. Nor can any other Arab. Perhaps you have been informed that "the Jews in Europe want to go to no other place except Palestine."

This myth is one of the greatest propaganda triumphs of the Jewish Agency for Palestine, the organisation which promotes with fanatic zeal the emigration to Palestine. It is a subtle half-truth, thus doubly dangerous. The astounding truth is that nobody on earth really knows where these unfortunate Jews really want to go! You would think that in so grave a problem, the American, British, and other authorities responsible for the European Jews would have made a very careful survey, probably by vote, to find out where each Jew actually wants to go. Amazingly enough this has never been done! The Jewish Agency has prevented it.

Some time ago the American Military Governor in Germany was asked at a press conference how he was so certain that all Jews there wanted to go to Palestine. His answer was simple: "My Jewish advisors tell me so." He admitted no poll had ever been made. Preparations were indeed begun for one, but the Jewish Agency stepped in to stop it.

The truth is that the Jews in German camps are now subjected to a Zionist pressure campaign which learned much from the Nazi terror. It is dangerous for a Jew to say that he would rather go to some other country, not Palestine. Such dissenters have been severely beaten, and worse. Not long ago, in Palestine, nearly 1,000 Austrian Jews informed the international refugee organisation that they would like to go back to Austria, and plans were made to repatriate them. The Jewish Agency heard of this, and exerted enough political pressure to stop it. It would be bad propaganda for Zionism if Jews began leaving Palestine. The nearly 1,000 Austrian are still there, against their will.

The fact is that most of the European Jews are Western in culture and outlook, entirely urban in experience and habits. They cannot really have their hearts set on becoming pioneers in the barren, arid, cramped land which is Palestine. One thing, however, is undoubtedly true. As matters stand now, most refugee Jews in Europe would, indeed, vote for Palestine, simply because they know no other country will have them. If you or I were given a choice between a near prison camp for the rest of our lives—or Palestine—we would both choose Palestine, too.

But open up any other alternative to them—give them any other choice, and see what happens! No poll, however, will be worth anything unless the nations of the earth are willing to open their doors—just a little—to the Jews. In other words, if in such a poll a Jew says he wants to go to Sweden, Sweden must be willing to accept him. If he votes for America, you must let him come in. Any other kind of poll would be a farce. For the desperate Jew, this is no idle testing of opinion: this is a grave matter of life or death. Unless he is absolutely sure that his vote means something, he will always vote for Palestine, so as not to risk his bird in the hand for one in the bush.

In any event, Palestine can accept no more. The 65,000 Jews in Palestine in 1918 have jumped to 600,000 today. We Arabs have increased, too, but not by immigration. The Jews were then a mere 11 per cent of our population. Today they are one third of it. The rate of increase has been terrifying. In a few more years—unless stopped now—it will overwhelm us, and we shall be an important minority in our own home. Surely the rest of the wide world is rich enough and generous enough to find a place for 200,000 Jews—about one third the number that tiny, poor Palestine has already sheltered. For the rest of the world, it is hardly a drop in the bucket. For us it means national suicide.

We are sometimes told that since the Jews came to Palestine, the Arab standard of living has improved. This is a most complicated question. But let us even assume, for the argument, that it is true. We would rather be a bit poorer, and masters of our own home. Is this unnatural?

The sorry story of the so-called "Balfour Declaration," which started Zionist immigration into Palestine, is too complicated to repeat here in detail. It is grounded in broken promises to the Arabs—promises made in cold print which admit no denying. We utterly deny its validity. We utterly deny the right of Great Britain to give away Arab land for a "national home" for an entirely foreign people. Even the League of Nations sanction does not alter this. At the time, not a single Arab state was a member of the League. We were not allowed to say a word in our own defense. I must point out, again in friendly frankness, that America was nearly as responsible as Britain for this Balfour Declaration. President Wilson approved it before it was issued, and the American Congress adopted it word for word in a joint resolution on 30th June, 1922.

In the 1920s, Arabs were annoyed and insulted by Zionist immigration, but not alarmed by it. It was steady, but fairly small, as even the Zionist founders thought it would remain. Indeed for some years, more Jews left Palestine than entered it—in 1927 almost twice as many. But two new factors, entirely unforeseen by Britain or the League or America or the most fervent Zionist, arose in the early thirties to raise the immigration to undreamed heights. One was the World Depression; the second the rise of Hitler. In 1932, the year before Hitler came to power, only 9,500 Jews came to Palestine. We did not welcome them, but we were not afraid that, at that rate, our solid Arab majority would ever be in danger. But the next year—the year of Hitler—it jumped to 30,000! In 1934 it was 42,000! In 1935 it reached 61,000!

It was no longer the orderly arrival of idealist Zionists. Rather, all Europe was pouring its frightened Jews upon us. Then, at last, we, too, became frightened. We knew that unless this enormous influx stopped, we were, as Arabs, doomed in our Palestine homeland. And we have not changed our minds.

I have the impression that many Americans believe the trouble in Palestine is very remote from them, that America had little to do with it, and that your only interest now is that of a humane bystander. I believe that you do not realise how directly you are, as a nation, responsible in general for the whole Zionist move and specifically for the present terrorism. I call this to your attention because I am certain that if you realise your responsibility you will act fairly to admit it and assume it.

Quite aside from official American support for the "National Home" of the Balfour Declaration, the Zionist settlements in Palestine would have been almost impossible, on anything like the current scale, without American money. This was contributed by American Jewry in an idealistic effort to help their fellows. The motive was worthy: the result were disastrous. The contributions were by private individuals, but they were almost entirely Americans, and, as a nation, only America can answer for it. The present catastrophe may be laid almost entirely at your door. It is your press and political leadership, almost alone in the world, who press this demand. It is almost entirely American money which hires or buys the "refugee ships" that steam illegally toward Palestine: American money which pays their crews. The illegal immigration from Europe is arranged by the Jewish Agency, supported almost entirely by American funds. It is American dollars which support the terrorists, which buy the bullets and pistols that kill British soldiers—your allies—and Arab citizens— your friends.

We in the Arab world were stunned to hear that you permit open advertisements in newspapers asking for money to finance these terrorists, to arm them openly and deliberately for murder. We could not believe this could really happen in the modern world. Now we must believe it: we have seen the advertisements with our own eyes. I point out these things because nothing less than complete frankness will be of use. The crisis is too stark for mere polite vagueness which means nothing. I have the most complete confidence in the fairmindedness and generosity of the American public.

We Arabs ask no favours. We ask only that you know the full truth, not half of it. We ask only that when you judge the Palestine question, you put yourselves in our place. Your government, almost alone in the world, is insisting on the immediate admission of 100,000 more Jews into Palestine—to be followed by countless additional ones. This will have the most frightful consequences in bloody chaos beyond anything ever hinted at in Palestine before. Our answer is the same. And what would be your action if, in spite of your refusal, this outside agency began forcing them on you? Ours will be the same.

Monday March 16, 2009, 11:14 am
Add to that inflammatory uses of words such as apartheid, holocaust, "state terroism ethinic cleasning, genocide and war crimes." Use of those words are inflammatory and meant to be so. Using them negates any debate in the kinds of those using them. They are egregious in their use in this case and therefore useless in a debate. You are so right Kit, if this were about a christian sect this would not be a debate.

Monday March 16, 2009, 11:26 am
Thanks Christy I like that.

Monday March 16, 2009, 12:04 pm
Laura excellent article. I hadn't seen that.Thankyou

Monday March 16, 2009, 12:39 pm
Well there are two sides to every coin:

More than sixty years ago a nation was born in a day - but at great cost. Emaciated Jews from 1945 to 1948, stumbled out of Europe’s death camps liberated by the Allies, but they had no place to go. Their homes and possessions were destroyed or confiscated and their family members murdered. Many of the survivors believed that the only place in the world they might find safety would be back in their ancient homeland - the land of Israel.

But there was only one catch. The British army had conquered the Holy
Land at the end of World War I, and for the thirty-one critical years they controlled Israel’s ancient land, they did all in their power to keep Jews from entering so-called Palestine (from the word Philistine). Their close ties with the Arab world and its oil was persuasive enough for them to impose increasingly strict quotas for Jews entering Israel each year. Arabs were free to settle the land, but the quota for Jews was absurd.

Decimated and heavily weighted with flashbacks of Nazi slaughter, all through WWII and after, Jews attempted to board rickety boats and land secretly on deserted beaches, trying desperately to avoid the British occupying forces who were there to put them back on boats to
Europe. Those who succeeded (most did not) to set their feet on the holy ground in the middle of the night, were met by local Jews in the underground who gave them guns and told them they must fight for their lives - or another Holocaust was awaiting them - this one by the surrounding
Arab nations, themselves only a few years old.

Barbed wire separates Arab and Jewish Sections of Jerusalem on Independence Day.

The pitifully small number of 46,000 Holocaust survivors who were admitted into the land after World War II (plus those who were smuggled in) celebrated with the local Jewish community
Israel’s Declaration of Independence on May 14, 1948 - 60 years ago. Most of these recent immigrants hadn’t yet learned much Hebrew, and many knew none at all. But when five Arab armies invaded the newborn nation the next day, all able men and women took up whatever weapons they had. 6,000 Jews died in that war, some of them because they could not understand their officers’ commands.

Sixty years ago, 600,000 Jews lived in this land. Some came from families who had inhabited the Promised Land for many generations - Safed, Tiberius, Jaffa, Hebron and above all, Jerusalem. There were always Jews living in the Holy Land, though most were wanderers among the nations of the world.

WHY DIDN’T THE JEWS FLEE TO ISRAEL BEFORE WORLD WAR II?

When Hitler rose to power in the 1930’s, and the black clouds gathered over the millions of Jews living in Europe and Russia, a few sniffed the wind, saw the present danger and heeded the call. Instead of declaring the ancient hope, “Next year in Jerusalem,” at Passover, they decided, “This
year.” Of those who left Europe, some 150,000 made it to Palestine between 1933-1935.

But as a rising Hitler became more brazen against the Jews, hundreds of thousands who recognized the danger would have made their escape but were heartlessly blocked from coming to Palestine. The British saw that few nations were ready to take in the European Jews, and feared that the Holy Land would be flooded with millions of them. They cold-bloodedly directed their navy to intercept the few desperate boatloads of Jews that managed to flee Europe before the war started. The refugees were stopped in the water and turned back to Nazi-controlled Europe by the British navy.

The demons of World War II ascended out of the pit. Now it was too late. As the ovens burned, the gates of British occupied Palestine were mercilessly locked tight, stranding 6,000,000 Jews in Europe who went to their deaths.

Unless you look at the situation close-up, you cannot possibly comprehend the heinous sins done to the Jewish people by the Allies - especially Britain. One small incident: A group of Jews hired a dilapidated boat called the “Struma”, which quickly developed a leak and a malfunction in the engine. It was allowed into a Turkish port, and the Turks worked long and hard for two months to get the British to give the passengers visas to Palestine. The British absolutely refused, and relentlessly pressured Turkey not to take them either!

Finally a tug boat simply pulled the boat out into the sea where suddenly an unexplained explosion blew the ship out of the water and 763 women, men and children perished. Only one man survived.

No doubt England itself survived the war because of the praying men and women of Great Britain who interceded day and night on behalf of their nation and for the Jewish people.

Tel Aviv was founded in 1909 on the outskirts of the ancient city of Jaffa.
After the war ended, 70,000 Jews boarded more ram-shackled boats and were smuggled into the Holy Land, as the British, even after the death of 6,000,000 Jews, continued to block their immigration except for a tiny quota. Still, here and there, another boatload of more souls landed in the dead of night at some isolated beach, silently following their Jewish guides to evade the British. Their descendants are here in Israel today.


WAVES OF JEWS BEGAN COMING HOME IN EARLY 1900’S

Around the turn of the 20th century, only some 40,000 Jews lived in Israel. (There are many different numbers given by various sources) They faced abject poverty, famine, roving marauders and expulsion by the Turks. But steadily, every year, in the early 1900’s, because of persecution in Russia and Eastern Europe, they kept coming.

But what they found was a land despised and forsaken of men. A land of no trees, of desert, and in Galilee, a land of malaria-ridden swamps. A lonely land with few inhabitants.

They cleaned the swamps. They fought the roving bands of Arabs. And the emerging local Arab leaders continued to attack under the permissive eye of British rulers. Still, before the British cut off Jewish immigration in 1939, 450,000 Jews had come home.

The Atlantic Monthly wrote in its July 1919 magazine:

“There is no chapter in the colonizing history of any people finer than the story of these Jewish pioneers. They came to Palestine ignorant of agriculture, ignorant of the land, ignorant of the people, miserably equipped. The [Turkish, then British] government laid its dead hand on all development. It was only by stealth, and with the assistance of baksheesh [money], that a house or a shelter could be erected. There was no security for land property or life, and fever and pestilence raged. The settlers had to compete with native labor accustomed to a very low standard of life. They had to make their own roads, furnish their own police, their own schools, their own sanitary apparatus; and while the government of Palestine offered them nothing but the privilege of paying taxes, the governors of the countries from which colonists came extended them no protection.”

In past centuries Jerusalem was generally a very poor city with little commerce to increase prosperity. Here poor Jews wait outside a Jerusalem Relief Office for food distribution in 1921.

The Jewish immigrants created an enterprise unknown anywhere else in the world. Under the harsh conditions of a barren land and dangerous neighbors they created the kibbutz - a communal society where a group of people built their houses together, ate together, built factories together, farmed together, and even had special homes in the kibbutz for the children. Though the structure of the kibbutz has radically changed in modern times in the direction of a normal village, the kibbutz was a vehicle that had a tremendous impact in building a Jewish state from scratch. Many of Israel’s most well-known politicians and military officers were raised on a kibbutz.

Now here is an interesting point that is crucially important to understand. Wherever Jews settled, Arab immigration grew exponentially. “The Arabs who went to Palestine sought economic opportunity created by the Zionists. As Europeans, the Zionists brought with them to Palestine resources and skills far in advance of anything possessed by the local population. Jews initiated advanced economic activities that created jobs and wealth and drew Arabs.” (www.danielpipes.org/article/1110)

1. The 1300-ton Parita sailed from Rumania with 850 immigrants aboard. They arrived after 40 days to Tel Aviv on August 22.1939, a week and a half before WWII broke out. Thousands of citizens thronged the beach and helped bring the immigrants to shore in small boats. This is one of the success stories of the illegal immigration.
2. A U.S. Army sergeant speaks with a newly liberated prisoner near death camp Buchenwald, Germany on April 11, 1945. The man, explaining that he had weighed 190 pounds, now weighed 80 pounds.
3. In the concentration camp of Auschwitz, Poland, 1,100,100 Jews were gassed. 65,000 survived until liberated in freezing weather by the Russians in January 1945.
4-5. After World War II ended, a life and death struggle was waged by Holocaust survivors who were attempting to reach the shores of the Holy Land. The British were determined that they would not - except for a tiny yearly quota. The boat “Jewish State” carried 4,500 passengers. Note the British soldiers waiting to arrest the passengers. Many ships like these two were seized by the British, and sent back to Europe.

6.The famous boat Exodus, as it drew near the Palestine coast on July 11,1947, was rammed and boarded by British naval officers. The 4,700 passengers were forced onto deportation ships which headed back to France. The passengers refused to disembark, suffering in extreme heat with little food and terrible sanitary conditions. The British then moved the ships to Germany where the Jews were forcibly removed and taken to British detainee camps. The media coverage was a public relations disaster for the British, showing immigrants seeking to flee anti-Semitism against the merciless and brutal British. From then on, the British did not send any more Jews back to Europe, but sent them to detention camps in Cyprus and elsewhere. They were released after Israel became a state.

MAY 15, THE DAY AFTER INDEPENDENCE DAY

Nevertheless when the new Prime Minister, David Ben Gurion, declared Israel an independent state, the Islamic nations had absolutely no intention of permitting such a state to rise out of the ashes of this devastated people. Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq immediately invaded Israel. Their intentions were declared by Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League: “This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.” (Jewish Virtual Library, The 1948 War, Mitchell Bard)

Both Jews and Arabs fought until exhausted, and the 1949 Cease Fire was signed by all. However, Arab attacks continued without cessation.
As hundreds of thousands of refugees from Arab countries thronged to the new Jewish state, the government had no choice but to erect tent encampments where immigrants lived, some for several years.

But with the signing of the Declaration of Independence, the Jews in Arab countries began to suffer great persecution. Arab riots broke out, and Jewish property was burned and looted. Jews lost their holdings, their bank accounts were frozen and their property confiscated. 856,000 Jews from Arab countries fled for their lives, forced to leave their property behind. (In comparison, about 700,000 Arabs fled from Palestine when the five Arab nations invaded Israel in 1948). In three years, the population of Israel doubled, and by 1957 900,000 Jews had found refuge in Israel because the new State had opened its gates to all Jews. Israel absorbed them all.

Today there are just over 5,500,000 Jews living in Israel - fewer than the number killed in the concentration camps. The nation has seen continuous war for 60 years - in her cities and along her borders.

A BBC poll released on April 2 found Israel to be the second most disliked country in the world. Only Iran is seen as surpassing Israel in unpopularity, with Pakistan coming in as a close third. As the Jerusalem Post described it, “Welcome to the Axis of the Unloved.” The nation with the most negative feelings toward Israel is Egypt with an incredible 94% of the population. (And we have a peace agreement with Egypt?!) Israel was seen as playing a harmful role in the world by more than half of the 17,000 respondents who were questioned in 34 countries.

Israelis have watched with incredulity the monster of Islamic tyranny rise - not only with bombs and guns, but with sophisticated skills to manipulate the world media as its greatest ally. Israel has watched in amazement and unbelief as virtually the whole world, through the United Nations,
has turned against Israel.

Israel has witnessed the top universities in the western world and the east, join the haters of Israel by placing hordes of professors who preach and teach the up-and-coming generation of world leaders the illegitimacy of Israel, the occupiers, who built their nation on another’s land.

Israel watches the Middle East burn as Europe and the U.S. fiddle over which sanctions to impose on Iran and her nuclear installations - (which sanctions are best - the nations ponder - the weak ones or the weaker ones?). Iran is already invading Israel - through Hizbullah and Hamas. It is no secret - these terrorists are trained in Iran and their weapons are coming from Iran.


**********************

It would extremely easy to discuss the "history of the Jewish people" as described in the text the Laura posted, to show exactly who this King was and many of his inhuman policies. For those who don't know, be adventurous look it up. For those who continue to see one side of this long historical struggle, your arguments then lack historical reference.

Monday March 16, 2009, 12:44 pm
Great article

Monday March 16, 2009, 1:30 pm
Thank you again Kit. Many conveniently forget that Britain's interest in oil was paramount to an attempt at a second holocaust perpetrated on the Jewish peoples.

Monday March 16, 2009, 3:24 pm
King Abdullah was the supreme pragmatist. Of all the Arab countries that invaded that May Jordan had the least territorial ambitions. Abdullah secretly met with many of the Jewish world leadres including Golda Meir. His army at that time was the best trained and equipped army in that entire area. The biggest defeats that the fledgling Jewish nation had were by the Jordanian Legion. Until this day the largest number of Israelis killed in battle were from them at the battle of Latroun. Some historians say that he didn't want to occupy Jerusalem but was forced to for political reasons. All that I have read about him leaves me with great respect for his knowledge and courage. Where as many Arab leaders of that time wanted to kill all the Jews this was not his aspiration and probably foreshadowed his doom by an Arab assassin

I found his speech filled with passion and reason. He truly foresaw this mess that is today. He, however, was more than willing to live with a 2 state solution. His death prevented any forward movement until Anwar Sadat signed the first peace treaty with Israel and he too was murdered by members of the Islamic Brotherhood of which Hamas owes it's philosophy of hate and death.

If Abdullah and Sadat were around today o ar more pragmatic and less radical Arab leaders then maybe this problem would have been solved. It is no surprise that Abdullah's grandson King Hussein signed the second peace treaty. It also had some self preservation thinking as Abdullah is Hashemite Bedouin and they are becoming the minority in Jordan. We can not forget "Black September" when the Jordanian Legion was turned on the PLO and 10,000 Palestinians were killed.

In either case the conditions that existed in 1947 are now moot.

Monday March 16, 2009, 8:03 pm
if any of these 'ethnic cleansing' posts mean anything here, then i have to say that anti-zionism is definitely anti-judaism and pure, undiluted hatred.
i can't believe how thinly veiled these 'hate' posts are on care2. these people should be ashamed of themselves for promoting terrorist organizations over a democratic civilization purely for the sake of condemning jews even when the honest facts are placed on a silver platter in front of their myopic eyes. they would be the first on line with black armbands, herding jews into concentration camps with smiles on their faces. how totally pathetic for them. and they know who they are.

Monday March 16, 2009, 11:29 pm
Hey Lynne... the jews were not the only ones in concentration camps..get over it already it's no longer an excuse for genocide. My father was not a jew and survived four years in a concentration camp. Let's refer to facts here.

Tuesday March 17, 2009, 4:09 am
David R; ''Well the hate has come out over night with " if I say it or post it it has to be right" frame of mind or
I can find a site called Goebellsofcyberrabia with a million unsubstantiated charges of which none can be verified and toss it into a posting, oh yeah it doesn't matter what the topic is, and like Hitler and his Brown shirts try disrupting a group of people that are of a different mindset. I guess that proves the point that anti-Zionism is hate''

More yap yap from one of the barking lot.

I guess it can be a little bit disruptive when some undeniable truth gets inserted into yet another zionist 'oh aren't we the poor misunderstood victims' discussions/circle jerks so often found on Care2.

You should after reading my post now know that there is in fact no difference between the IDF and Hamas when it comes to targetting civilians, so won't be dishonest enough to repeat such a ridiculous statement as the one you made - ''The difference between Hamas and the IDF is that the IDF does not specifically target civilians where there is no doubt who Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah target. ''
(Very similar to Lindseys recent statement about Israel not using human shields , which I thoroughly debunked several times and have had no acknowledgment as yet from the normally vocal Lindsey, see below*)
Tho being pro Israeli, honesty is not usually high on your agenda.

''People that are of a different mindset.'' You lot are no different from the mindset that allowed the genocides of the Native Americans, Armenians , Tutsis, Guatemalan Mayan Indians and millions in the Nazi death camps.
A question for the barking lot- in which of the above-mentioned genocides was Israel involved in arming and training the genocidaires?

Zionism is a racist ideology based on the belief that the rights of Jews supercede the rights of the indiginous inhabitants of Palestine, who have lived in Palestine for generations.
If you disagree with that analysis, please tell me why.

Is anti Zionism hatred ? No. Zionism leads to hatred and should be opposed by all who seek universal peace & justice.

Confirming the kill- http://www.care2.com/news/member/130107083/1084975
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Lindsey; ''Israel does not have a policy of using human shields, whether of its own civilian populace or anyone else. '' Source cited;NONE
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
''...Rovera has also collected evidence that the Israeli army holds Palestinian families prisoner in their own homes as human shields. "It's standard practice for Israeli soldiers to go into a house, lock up the family in a room on the ground floor and use the rest of the house as a military base, as a sniper's position. That is the absolute textbook case of human shields.

"IT HAS BEEN PRACTISED BY THE ISRAELI ARMY FOR MANY YEARS AND THEY ARE DOING IT IN GAZA NOW," she said.'' (in CAPS so you CAN"T MISS IT)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/13/gaza-israel-war-crimes
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
''Meanwhile In A Parallel Universe (documented cases of Israels use of human shields)

This is my third post on that alternate reality in which Israel gets to demonize Palestinians and Lebanese for allegedly using civilians as human shields - allegations that don't stand up too well under scrutiny - knowing all the time that its own army has a well-documented and ongoing policy of using Palestinian civilians as human shields for IDF military operations in the Occupied Territories. ''

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2007/06/meanwhile_in_a_.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The "Neighbor Procedure" Btselem

''After the state filed its response, the IDF continued to use Palestinian civilians to order other Palestinians to leave their houses to be arrested. This practice, the "neighbor procedure," led to the death of a Palestinian man..''

''Testimonies given to B'Tselem indicate that IDF soldiers have continued to use the "neighbor procedure." Following the numerous instances in which the IDF violated the court order, the human rights organizations filed a contempt of court application with the court, and requested the court to impose a fine on the state and order the state to pay punitive sums for violation of the temporary injunction.''

http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/Neighbor_Procedure.asp

Tuesday March 17, 2009, 6:24 am
Gillian IF YOU are going to keep spewing the same crap all the time on submissions, read the replies so i and others don't have to keep reposting to your nonsense

Tuesday March 17, 2009, 6:33 am
I have sympathy for the impulse of a Native American to take back Manhattan. If I am a true friend, though, I may try to help that person have a fulfilling life without pursuing that goal, rather than encouraging him or her to pursue that goal.

Tuesday March 17, 2009, 6:52 am
I just wonder how many of you "Anti-Zionists" as you want to be called, ever really read what others have to say. Simon if I thought you were able to understand I would point out the absurdities in your last statement. But really, why waste my time, when you understand nothing outside of a tiny view of the world at large. Which as usual takes this from the level of intellectual debate to once again childish name calling.

Tuesday March 17, 2009, 8:21 am
Kit don't worry about Re-Pete the cut and paste champion. He thinks very highly of himself never offers a realistic idea on how to solve a problem. He takes his incredibly unsubstantiated data from some of the largest most vile hate sites on the web. The funny thing about it though is how highly he thinks of himself and what he has to say. "I have thoroughly debunked", if this isn't the most vain elitist view of himself of any person that I have ever spoken to then I guess it's been just sheer luck for me. Now watch he will now take some sentence or thought that was said in a context of a thread 2 days ago and make his "Elitist, racist, self-absorbed' commentary and then pat himself on the back for his brilliant insights.

The one thing that none of these supporters of the neo-fascist, Islamofascist supporters of groups like Hamas, Hezboullah, The Muslem Brotherhod, Al-quieda and other Islamic fanatic groups can ever dispute is that all of these blood thirsty murderers want is to make a Caliphate in which there will never be any civil liberties including dissent. They will never look at the rights of women. They will always find ways to justify the killing of there children by clearing mines or by capital punishment. They will never allow freedom of the press. They will and publicly state that they want to kill "all" Jews, Crusaders and infidel's unless they convert to Islam.

I'm sure "Cut and Paste Re-Pete" would love to live in a system like that so he could tell them that his ideas are truly paramount and they will just meely accede to his wishes and the world can live happily ever after.

Tuesday March 17, 2009, 8:30 am
Anti zionism is an expression of love for the unchosen !

Tuesday March 17, 2009, 10:53 am
Kit;''I just wonder how many of you "Anti-Zionists" as you want to be called, ever really read what others have to say. Simon if I thought you were able to understand I would point out the absurdities in your last statement. But really, why waste my time, when you understand nothing outside of a tiny view of the world at large.''

Er , I think you'll find that it's not the 'anti zionists' who have a problem of not reading other posts,just look at the prevalence of statements like 'Israel doesn't deliberately target civilians/use human shields/torture/commit genocide/have apartheid policies/arm repressive regimes' as per David and Lindsey for 2 examples.

Why do we waste OUR time responding to the many dishonest/deluded pro Israelis here on Care2? It's certainly not to educate you lot, -
'Never try to teach a zionist the truth,
it wastes your time and annoys the pig.' as the saying goes. (hatsoff Tim ;) ).
-but for the people who may actually want to cut thru the zionist lies and learn a little truth about the root causes of the I/P conflict.

BTW David, if you follow the links I post under my 'cut & pastes', you come to the full article, which cites such 'brown shirt ' sources as HRW, Amnesty International, Btselem, PCATI et al. It's not MY data that is 'incredibly unsubstantiated'.

As for your responses, I see no attempt at addressing the truths contained in my posts, apart from the usual hate filled personal attacks. To you it seems truth = hatred.

http://www.care2.com/news/member/130107083/1036622 (This smearing of Israels critics must stop) ;-)

It's revealing that whenever I post C2nn articles by 'Larry' , the 'barking' turns into the yelping of whipped curs or ceases altogether.. http://www.care2.com/news/member/130107083/1058176

While on the subject of cut & pastes Kit, it's considered good practise to post links to the articles you quote from, so peeps can judge for themselves the source and also to credit the author. I'll do it for you this time-

http://www.sidroth.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7321&news_iv_ctrl=0&abbr=art_

Tuesday March 17, 2009, 12:34 pm
He hath spoken and the unenlightened praised the heavens for such insight. I guess it's good that you enjoy yourself and actually regard your insights as gifted.

But here's the story;

Hamas, Hezbollah, Al-Quieda and The Moslem Brotherhood's mission statements are that they want me, my family and my friends dead. Adolph Hitler may have been correct about the train schedules but I wouldn't support him because he wanted me dead. He did kill my family that didn't get out on time. All of those groups mission statement's conflict with every value I hold dear. I believe in civil liberties they don't. I believe in freedom of the press they don't. I believe in freedom of religion they don't. I believe in equality for women they don't. I believe in dissent they don't. They believe they are on a mission from G-d and while that may be right for the Blues Brother's and you it's not by me. They believe in Honor Killings I don't. Israel has it's faults but at the end of the day we share many of the same values. Through dissent in Israel you get to quote from Be'tselm. Can Israel do things better? absolutely but they are a democracy where there is freedom of the press, religion and dissent. I'll back that horse any day of the week and twice on Sunday with all of it's flaws and imperfections.

Tuesday March 17, 2009, 6:14 pm
Anthropologists estimate that, one hundred years after Christopher Columbus landed in the islands off of North America, the population of the Americas had declined to one-tenth (give or take one-twentieth) of its pre-Columbian level, due almost entirely to European diseases against which the natives had little immunity. In spite of the newly wide-open spaces and the lack of population pressure, the natives fought with the newcomers. It may be fair to say that the natives were willing to co-exist, but they didn't like being pushed out of their family homes and they didn't like the arrogance of the newcomers who had not learned to live in harmony with the land. The violence went on for four hundred years. Aliyah has had a far greater and faster impact on Palestine than European emigration to the Americas had. A reaction is to be expected, regardless of the ethnicities involved.

Wednesday March 18, 2009, 5:24 am
Let's spend 12 seconds looking at Goebblesofcyberabia's answer. Oh there wasn't any. He shifted the topic to what he feels comfortable answering.

Islamofascists;
Don't believe in Civil liberties ie;
No freedom of the press
No freedom of Religion
No women's rights
No dissent

That's to name a few and I guess it's closer to the reason the term Islamofacists is used.

Wednesday March 18, 2009, 6:01 am
Zionism is a racist ideology based on the belief that the rights of Jews supercede the rights of the indiginous inhabitants of Palestine, who have lived in Palestine for generations.

If you disagree with that analysis, please tell me why.

Wednesday March 18, 2009, 6:06 am
Islamofascists
''It seems very important to some Zionists to find the origin of Palestinian and Arab resistance to Zionism in religious hatred. The latest example of this tendency is in the newly-fashionable term, “islamofascism”, to describe the outlook of movements such as Hamas. This is a very comfortable cop-out. It reassures us that any opposition to what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is simply the latest manifestation of the same old antisemitism, and so absolves us from having to think rationally or critically about what we are actually witnessing in Israel and the Occupied Territories.

It’s not too difficult to swallow that line of reasoning if you have grown up on the Zionist narrative of history that many people my generation did. The logic behind it goes like this: Zionism is simply a national liberation movement for Jews, who are simply a people like any other, seeking self-determination in a state of their own. This is an eminently reasonable thing to do; in fact, it is what every people wants. As it is so normal and so rational, the only reason that anyone would object to it must be that the people seeking self-determination in this case happen to be Jews. Therefore the people who resist Zionism do so out of antisemitism. Q.E.D.

I occasionally get emails like that, and I’m never really sure if the people who are writing to me really don’t see there is a problem with this logic. It’s hard to tell from an email whether someone is being disingenuous, and deliberately ignoring the obvious, or whether they are sincere. They sound sincere to me, so I generally assume they are.

Nevertheless, there is a logical gap in this narrative: it’s big enough to drive a bus through it, and it’s called “the Palestinian people”. Zionism has always sold itself – right back to Israel Zangwill’s coining that catchy little phrase, “a land without a people for a people without a land” - by pretending that the Palestinian people aren’t there.
Because once you acknowledge that there are already people in Palestine, you have to acknowledge that your Zionist narrative is a very partial truth. Zionism suddenly becomes not just a programme to build a national home for the Jewish people, but a programme to build a national home for the Jewish people in Palestine, which is already home to an indigenous population – 95% of whom (at the time of the first Zionist settlement in 1882) – happen to be non-Jewish. And once you acknowledge that, the issues Zionism raises become suddenly much more complex.

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2006/11/islamofascists.html

Wednesday March 18, 2009, 6:47 am
I'm having trouble in seeing the moral equivalency here. Zionism is a movement that began in the late 1800's coming out of the Dreyfuss trial but as direct result of hundreds of years of anti-semitism. What the early Zionist's believed was a direct result of the conditions of that particular time in history. The State of Israel and it's continuance as a Jewish State is it's goal today. At no time was Zionism a fanatical religious movement.All citizen's of Israel regardless of race, religion, sex, sexual orientation have the same rights. The claim that it's an apartheid state is ridiculous and meant to create an illusion of it being evil. The same goes for the ridiculous comparison's of Israel to Nazism which not only is ridiculous but is, to me, anti-semetic in that is trying to compare Jews to the monsters who victimized them in the worst crime against humanity in modern history and is specifically meant to hurt Jews. The comparison with apartheid was voted down in the UN during a rare moment of honesty.

I don't believe that all people who are against Israeli policies are anti-semites. I do think that when people say they are anti-zionist many have questionable motives and certainly there seems to be a high correlation of rises in anti-semetic acts during these times.

Wednesday March 18, 2009, 7:06 am
Hamas, Hezbollah, Al-Quieda and The Moslem Brotherhood's mission statements are that they want me, my family and my friends dead.

Do you support this mission statement?

Wednesday March 18, 2009, 7:15 am
Pete M asked and answered a gazillion times if you manage to read ALL the posts.

Wednesday March 18, 2009, 7:32 am
Of course, as I have stated before, I do not agree with Zionism. However, I would be interested to learn how you, Pete, feel that the Palestinian position differs from that of Zionism. And since Hamas is the elected leader and spokesman for the people of Gaza, I will confine myself merely to a small portion of their official statements in their own Charter:

THE PROPOSITION THAT ONE IS ENTITLED TO A LAND BECAUSE OF RELIGIOUS REASONS AND THAT RELIGIOUS NATIONALISM IS ACCEPTABLE:

(Article 1) "The Islamic Resistance Movement draws its guidelines from Islam."

(Article 6) "The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinct Palestinian Movement which owes its loyalty to Allah, derives from Islam its way of life and strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine."

(Article 8) "Allah is its goal, the Prophet its model, the Qur'an its Constitution, Jihad its path and death for the case of Allah its most sublime belief."

(Article 9) "As to the objectives, discarding the evil, crushing it and defeating it, so that truth may prevail, homelands revert [to their owners], calls for prayer be heard from their mosques, announcing the reinstitution of the Muslim state. Thus, people and things will revert to their true place.

(Article 12) "Hamas regards Nationalism as part and parcel of the religious faith.

(Article 13) "For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith...."

Article (28) "ISRAEL, BY VIRTUE OF ITS BEING JEWISH AND OF HAVING A JEWISH POPULATION, DEFIES ISLAM AND THE MUSLIMS."

THE PROPOSITION THAT ONE MAY KEEP LAND ACQUIRED BY CONQUEST:

(Introduction) The souls of its Jihad fighters will encounter those of all Jihad fighters who have sacrificed their lives in the land of Palestine since it was conquered by the Companion of the Prophet...."

(Article 11) The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Ressurection....and it is similar to all lands conquered by Islam by force, and made thereby Waqf lands upon their conquest, for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection."

http://www.acpr.org.il/resources/hamascharter.html

So, the Palestinians believe they have a right to retain land because it was conquered by their ancestors and that conquest gives them a divine mandate to own the land until the end of time.

And the Palestinians believe Islamic nationalism to be acceptable.

And the Palestinians believe that the tenets of their Islamic faith entitle them to the land of Palestine.

Sounds a lot like the definition many people place on Zionism (though that definition is hardly agreed upon by all Zionists).

Wednesday March 18, 2009, 8:01 am
A lot of issues are being confused in this thread. A person can take anti-Zionist stands without taking pro-Islamofascist stands. In fact, for a person who is neither Jewish nor Muslim, it makes perfect sense to be both anti-Zionist and anti-Islamofascist -- or to be neutral on both.

Wednesday March 18, 2009, 8:11 am
You are entirely right, Steve. It is entirely possible to support Palestine while disagreeing with the basic Islamist position taken by its government and some of its people. Just as it is possible to support Israel while disagreeing with the basic tenets of Zionism (as many conceive it to be.)

The problem is that some aggressively pro-Palestinian people, including some here on this forum, seem unable to acknowledge the similarities between the Jewish Zionism they decry and the Islamist nationalism that is evident in Palestine - which they support, either openly or tacitly. And many, though certainly not all, seem equally unable to condemn any action committed by the Palestinians or Hamas, no matter how obviously wrong (there is actually one pro-Palestinian on the forum who refused to condemn honor killings in Gaza because, in her view, they were caused by Israel and would never have happened had Israel not invaded Gaza - ignoring the fact that honor killings have been going on in that culture for millenia, of course. As she also could not bring herself to condemn suicide bombings of civilians by Hamas).

That's the point. That there is rarely a clear-cut, absolute, 100% right/wrong side in any conflict. And I wish more could absorb that fact.

Thursday March 19, 2009, 12:53 am
David; I was unaware that you lived in Israel or the occupied territories, which I assume you are saying when you state that Hamas & Hezbollah want YOU dead.

Al CIAda want all 'infidels' dead , including the Shia Hamas and Hezbollah, so to lump them together is not entirely accurate.

Hamas are the product of 60 yrs of brutal Israeli repression against the Palestinian people , and are what you get when you refuse to grant Palestinians their right to self determination. They were originally supported by Israel to divide Palestinian support for Arafats PLO.
This support continued even AFTER the 'anti semetic' Hamas Charter was published and only stopped after the lynching deaths of two Israeli soldiers by Hamas supporters. Hamas have repeatedly expressed their wish to negotiate a 2 state settlement based on the pre 1967 borders.

Hezbollah were formed in 80s Lebanon as a Shia resistance movement to Israels invasion & occupation of Lebanon . They fought against Israel and her allies the Phalange and SLA, both of whom were mass murderers/torturers of Lebanese civilians during Israels occupation. So again, unless you are an Israeli occupier or living in the occupied territories they are not out to get YOU or your family.

Lindsey;''That there is rarely a clear-cut, absolute, 100% right/wrong side in any conflict.''

What defo is 100% wrong is the inflicting of a Jewish state onto the majority indiginous population of Palestine against their wishes, and then denying them their own right to self determination. Maybe you disagree?

Thursday March 19, 2009, 1:04 am
The Arab-Israeli Conflict: Too Complicated For Our Beautiful Minds

http://www.care2.com/news/member/130107083/1087008

Thursday March 19, 2009, 3:26 am
David;'' I'm having trouble in seeing the moral equivalency here. Zionism is a movement that began in the late 1800's coming out of the Dreyfuss trial but as direct result of hundreds of years of anti-semitism. What the early Zionist's believed was a direct result of the conditions of that particular time in history. The State of Israel and it's continuance as a Jewish State is it's goal today.''

So, are you saying that because of the historical persecution of Jews , it's morally acceptable to steal another peoples land and inflict the same persecution onto them?

Perhaps then the persecution of the Palestinians would make it morally acceptable in your eyes for them to expel their Jewish persecutors from Israel in order to create a safe homeland for themselves, or am I missing something here?

A moral equivalent to the I/P situation would be the European colonisation of the Americas and their treatment of the native population. Was this morally right or wrong in your eyes?

You can't colonise an inhabited land without either expelling , killing or depriving the native inhabitants of their basic rights, as Israel has one and continues to do so, and which will always be resisted by said inhabitants until some sort of acceptable peace agreement is sorted out. (which can only be done by talking to ALL parties).

Friday March 20, 2009, 7:26 am
Do you support there mission statement? They want ALL JEWS dead. Is this to difficult for you to answer?

Friday March 20, 2009, 7:35 am
The point Re:Pete is that although you may agree with Hitler about the problem with the trains do you support his cause? You may agree with with certain goals these Islamofacists have but you are closing your eyes to there complete disdain of human rights including;
Women's rights
Abuse of children
No dissent
No freedom of religion
on and on. You may rationalize your omission of attention to these facts all you want but in the end you are supporting Islamofascists that not only want to see me, my family and most of my friends dead but eventually it will be you as a crusader and any non-believer as an infidel. Or you could convert.

Saturday March 21, 2009, 4:45 am
What do you think?
My 'support' of Hamas only extends to the fact that they are the (freely and fairly according to international observers ) democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people and their right as such to defend within the rules of international law the illegal Israeli occupation.
Beyond that they have as much of my 'support' as any other conservative religious/political group.

I'll be sure to lock my doors and hide under my bed in the event that they come for me, thanks for the warning. Really.
As Al CIAda already want me dead, I am currently under the same threat as any other 'unbeliever' .

You haven't attempted to answer the questions I asked in my earlier post. Or this-

Zionism is a racist ideology based on the belief that the rights of Jews supercede the rights of the indiginous inhabitants of Palestine, who have lived in Palestine for generations.

If you disagree with that analysis, please tell me why.

I won't hold my breath, but while I'm waiting here's something from another of my 'brown shirt' , fascist hate sites for you-

''Beyond this tactical consideration lies the more important question of strategy. Mr. Harris, in his conventional thinking, has it wrong again. He asks: "Is it possible that Hamas is sincere in its open calls for Israel's disappearance?" Yes, it's possible, just as it's possible that Israel is determined—through its continued expansion of settlements, Gaza blockade, West Bank walling-in, and wanton high-tech force—to bludgeon, undermine, and otherwise humiliate the Palestinian people until their dreams of statehood and dignity evaporate. But these possibilities are not the point; they are distractions.

The argument over recognition, that is to say over accepting and seeing the other, is in the end a form of evasion designed to perpetuate the conflict. Would it be desirable for Hamas to recognize Israel's right to exist prior to negotiations? Yes. Is it essential? No. A strong supporter of Israel like Mr. Harris should have no problem putting facts before metaphysics, for such hardheadedness was the basis on which, from 1948, Israel built its power, before, of late, overplaying its hand, first in Lebanon and then in Gaza.

What is essential, with the arrival of the Obama administration and a governmental transition (however apparently inauspicious) in Israel, is to begin to view Hamas as an authentic, resilient, and many-faceted political expression of Palestinian frustration rather than through the sole prism of terrorism. America has been practicing Green-Zoneism in Israel-Palestine, a policy based on the construction of imaginary worlds. Not surprisingly, this has led nowhere.

Hamas is here to stay. It is, like Hezbollah, a broad-based political movement. It has prospered through Israeli intransigence. In January 2006 it won the free and fair elections for the Legislative Council of the Palestinian Authority, only to discover that Middle Eastern democracy is only democracy if it produces the right result. A two-state peace without Hamas is inconceivable. It is time, through direct diplomacy and with the help of Saudi Arabia and Egypt, to make a Hamas–Fatah reconciliation, such as was briefly achieved at Mecca in 2007, a core priority of US policy. It is time also to recognize that the terrorist label for Hamas is inadequate and self-defeating.

Many members of the current Israeli leadership have been on wondrous political odysseys—Tzipi Livni, for example, from Eretz-Israel Likudnik dogma (her father was operations chief of what would now be called the terrorist Irgun) and rejection of Oslo to acceptance that some division of the land is inescapable. Yet the current fruitless policy toward Hamas that Mr. Harris endorses is based on the assumption that the organization is at once static and irrevocably absolutist. I believe Hamas leaders are no less capable of pragmatic political calculation than Israelis.

What, Mr. Harris, asks, would I have Israel do, given Hamas rockets on Sderot? I would not have Israel kill upward of 1,300 people, many of them women and children; cause damages estimated at $1.9 billion; destroy 40 percent of Gaza homes and 80 percent of crops; deprive people of food, water, and medicine; perpetuate a radicalizing blockade on 1.5 million people squeezed into a narrow strip of land; needlessly harm its image across the world; and, at this not inconsiderable human, material, and moral price, achieve nothing beyond (perhaps) some marginal impact on its own election results.
As I wrote, Israel has the right to hit back when attacked, but any response should be proportional and, above all, based on sober political calculation rather than violence for its own sake.

Mr. Harris brings up Iran more than once. He calls Hamas a "jihadist Iranian proxy," forgetting that Iran and Hamas represent two different branches of Islam—Shiite and Sunni. (Tehran's bonds with Hezbollah are far more profound.) That, however, is not the main point. In essence, Mr. Harris buys into the mad-mullah (and madder-Ahmadinejad) theory of an Iran bent on Israel's destruction. I have just spent several weeks in Iran and I am convinced he's wrong.

Such superficial and self-serving views of Iran ignore, beyond inflammatory rhetoric, much evidence of an Iranian pragmatism that has enabled a thirty-year-old revolution to survive. Mr. Harris ignores Iranian history: the country has not waged an aggressive war for 250 years. He ignores the fact that the proven nuclear proliferators in the region are Israel, Pakistan, and India. He ignores the sophistication of a highly educated, globally aware nation most of whose population is under thirty. Most importantly, he ignores all the ways in which Iran, a non-Arab power whose people are broadly sympathetic to the United States, could, if approached with something other than an axis-of-evil sledgehammer, prove central to the resolution of conflict from Israel-Palestine to Afghanistan. The "Tehran connection," like Hamas, needs revisiting with constructive sobriety rather than slogan-hurling hysteria.''

From 'Eyeless in Gaza, an exchange'

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/22495

Wednesday March 25, 2009, 6:41 am
The initial post in this thread links to an opinion piece in the Los Angeles Times. It was written by Judea Pearl, a computer science and statistics professor at UCLA and father of Daniel Pearl, the Wall Street Journal reporter who was beheaded in Pakistan in 2002.

Judea Pearl's inspiration to write the opinion piece came from a symposium held at UCLA that he considered to be anti-Zionistic. By his own account, some of the organizers were Jews who claimed that "anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism." Pearl explicitly agrees that anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism, but goes on to add the twist that anti-Zionism is worse than anti-Semitism. In the rest of the piece he reveals some definitions that do not conform to general use.

By way of contrast, here is a quote from the fourth edition of _Understanding Arabs: A Guide for Modern Times_, by Margaret K. Nydell. (pp. xxi-xxii):

"Most of us are aware of the degree to which different national and cultural groups stereotype each other,at a distance or in person-to-person relations. When Westerners and Arabs interact, especially if neither understands the other, they often come away with impressions that are mutually negative.

"Similarly, the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is about Israelis and Palestinians of today, who are not the same people referred to in the Bible as Hebrews and Ishmaelites (Arabians). Many Israelis are of European and other non-Semitic origins, and the Palestinians are _Arab_ but not _Arabians_ from the Arabian Peninsula; they are descended from indigenous populations such as Canaanites, Moabites, and Phoenicians. The current conflict is political, a clash over land, and has its origins entirely in the twentieth century.

"It is important to understand that the conflict is not religious; Islam is far closer to Judaism than is Christianity. Muslims accept all of the Jewish prophets and many of their religious practices. Muslims have no historical grievances against Jews and did not engage in periodic massacres as happened repeatedly in Europe, causing many Jews to flee south. However, after sixty years of bitter conflict, the religion of Judaism and the political ideology of Zionism have become mixed, by both sides. Still, I have never heard an Arab or a Muslim say anything negative about Jews as people _except in the context of Israel._

Wednesday March 25, 2009, 7:50 am
The man's son was brutally beheaded because he was a Jew. He should at least have the right to state his opinions.

"Still, I have never heard an Arab or a Muslim say anything negative about Jews as people except in the context of Israel." Perhaps you haven't been listening?

I have posted many comments to attempt to bring a sense of balance and reason to this discussion. But tell me please Steve, how do you share ideas of reason with people who adamantly back not a solution, but destruction of a people and their home? Are the Palestinians in need of a home? Of course, I have not debated that issue, and still hope reason and fairness can be found. On the other hand, if I were an Israeli I am sure I too would be very tired of constant bombing and attacks. The people posting on this or the MANY OTHER articles about this topic are not from the middle east and yet they post such strongly radical statement as "death to Israel" this brings no opportunity for reason, it displays only hate.

So one must wonder is this simply an opportunity to openly display anti-Jewish feelings? The use of term anti-Zion is a convenient word game and is therefore as intolerable as most of the posts I have read on this topic. If it were not an opportunity to do exactly that, would there be literally nearly a dozen and sometimes more articles each day on this one topic and the same people repeating the mantra of hate over and over? Reason can only be found among those who wish to speak to one another with reason. People can not change yesterday, they can only more forward from today.

Wednesday March 25, 2009, 9:32 am
For the sake of clarification, I am not the one who said, "Still, I have never heard an Arab or Muslim say anything negative about Jews as people except in the context of Israel." Those are the words of the author, Margaret K. Nydell.

I still get a sick feeling in my stomach when I think of Daniel Pearl being beheaded. Yes, his father has a right to state his opinions. He also has a right to grieve and to be angry. But there is no reason for the rest of us to assume that the opinions of a bereaved parent of a murdered child are going to be objective and make the world a better place if published in a major newspaper.

I imagine that Daniel Pearl was a person whom I would have liked a great deal. He was well-educated and curious about the world. He married a multi-ethnic woman who practiced Buddhism.

On the other hand, it's not very difficult for me to imagine Pakistani Muslims seeing him as a spy, at best. Just think of a Pakistani Muslim journalist coming to the U.S., in the months following 9/11, to interview, for example, the Rev. Jerry Falwell. I suspect that Americans, in general, would find that strange. And Falwell's followers, in particular, could get downright paranoic about it. It's difficult to predict how they would react That is just the kind of situation into which Daniel Pearl voluntarily inserted himself. Considering his prior experience, he had to have known that he was doing something provocative and risky.

Kit, you wrote: "But tell me please Steve, how do you share ideas of reason with people who adamantly back not a solution, but destruction of a people and their home?" First of all, I don't know the answer. But, second, it's not immediately obvious whether you are talking about the Zionists or the anti-Zionists. It's only because I have read your previous posts that I know which side you are taking.

Wednesday March 25, 2009, 9:41 am
Is the not the essence of the problem? That we choose up sides? A wild west mentality that wants not reason or mutual concern but SIDES.

Yes, I am angry that people have choosen to see only one side of this, and that to discuss this question one must be either Zionist or Anti-Zionist. Once those lines are drawn there is less chance of ever finding sanity. Once hate begins to propagate it is far more difficult to turn back.

Wednesday May 13, 2009, 7:04 pm
What a distorted mind Judea Pearl must have, to think the way his article's thesis suggests, and this man is a professor.!! Does he honestly think that his twisted logic will dupe anyone with a scintilla of intelligence?

In what way has political/fascist Zionism contributed to peace in the Middle East in general, or Palestine in particulay? There has been a concerted effort to annihilate the Palestinaians using the methods of the Nazis, up to, but not yet including, Hitler's Final Solution.

Furthermore, and just for the record, I am sick and tired of Zionists trying to drum up sympathy by their use of the historical fact of the Holocaust, and their portryal of themselves a victims. The real victims are the Palestinians, themselves a Semitic people, which makes these political/fascist Zionists, themselves, rabid anti-Semites. What a turn up for the books!

Thursday May 14, 2009, 8:23 am
Um, you just brought it up, circular reasoning.