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Palestinian War Crimes Case Faces Long Road


World  (tags: Palestine, Israel, war crimes, violence, death, human rights, middle-east )

Carrie
- 749 days ago - nationalmemo.com
Days after winning upgraded status at the United Nations, the Palestinians are threatening to join the world's first permanent war crimes court and pursue charges against the Israelis. Although the Palestinians say that any decision is still a long ...



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Comments

(8)
Tuesday December 4, 2012, 6:59 pm
Netanyahu has, literally, been getting away with murder for years. I do not believe in the death penalty but suggest that Netanyahu be placed in solitary confinement so he might experience the reality of the way he has surrounded, occupied and deprived the Palestinians in Gaza of life as we know it.
 

jo M. (3)
Tuesday December 4, 2012, 7:19 pm
And then the Israelis could press charges against the Palestinians, and the stalemate would continue endlessly.
 

Kit B. (276)
Tuesday December 4, 2012, 8:27 pm

Thanks Carrie, definitely worth the read. I don't see charges being brought against Israel, nor Palestine. They just will continue to swap missiles and kill children. While it is true that the majority of people in Palestine do live behind barricades, with what any developed nation would normally call less than humane conditions, who is speaking out? Hamas gains no favoritism with it's actions either.
 

Jason S. (57)
Tuesday December 4, 2012, 8:41 pm
Israel most likely will get away with it, because US backing of Israel. Good posting, thanks
 

Free G. (4)
Tuesday December 4, 2012, 8:45 pm
Certainly, any war crimes committed by either party can be brought to the ICC. We know quite well from Gaza I, War ON Gaza, the majority of the war crimes come from Israel. You can try and dispute that jo M. all you want, but considering out of the 36 incidents the Goldstone Report investigated, Israel has admitted to 21 of them (that is an outdated count as it was from well over 1.5 years ago). How about right now, when there is a ceasefire in place. Israel, as of yesterday, had violated the ceasefire 17 times. That is a little more than a week. Pretty impressive isn't it?

I also want to note, and this is now getting a fair amount of media play, including Israeli news, the assassination of Hamas military chief Ahmed Jabari, who was also known as "strongman of the Gaza Strip - Israel's 'subcontractor'," and what actually was the reason for it? Considering Jabari had just received a draft of a long term truce that he was negotiating with Israel through "Gershon Baskin, who served as an intermediary in the deal for the return of kidnapped soldier Gilad Shalit" with the full knowledge and approval of Ehud Barak and was going to respond affirmatively, why would the State of Israel assassinate him?

This makes it quite obvious that the State of Israel's actions are not about security and the safety of its citizens, but about avoidance of anything resembling a negotiated settlement and the resultant peace. In other words, the State of Israel, with Bibi at the helm, not only rejected a long term truce (by assassinating the person they were negotiating with), but put Israeli citizens as risk to considerable harm in retaliatory action by Hamas.

You tell me that isn't a war crime. That isn't just a war crime against the Gazans, but it is a war crime against their own freaking people that they insist are acting only in the name of security for its population. What a freaking joke.

To support this type of downright d-baggery which is outright State sanctioned terrorism, makes those who do so, terrorist supporters themselves. If this is all about Hamas then why are people in the West Bank dying? What does security have to do when you have a Jewish population of 500 people protected by 2,000 police personnel? Why do you have that same 500 nutbars armed to the teach and it is mandatory for them to do so. Do you think the Palestinians in the Hebron, where the settlers dump urine, crap and garbage on their heads from above, get to carry guns to protect themselves from the nutbar faction?

Where is it human and not an act of terror when Israel has spent the last 10 days flying low in Gazan airspace to intentionally create sonic booms and scare the crap out of an already traumatized population? When isn't it a war crime to shoot a pregnant woman and her kids while they are carrying a white piece of cloth to show they mean no harm and then make t-shirts to sell that say "1 shot, two kills" depicting a pregnant woman in crosshairs? Try and explain that one to me jo M.
 

Jennifer C. (169)
Tuesday December 4, 2012, 8:46 pm
Thanks.
 

Free G. (4)
Tuesday December 4, 2012, 9:06 pm
"Hamas gains no favoritism with it's actions either."

If we liked them, we would be calling them freedom fighters, now wouldn't we? Hamas, certainly not my favorite idea of governance. With that said, what does anyone expect them to do? Lie down and die. Due to the nature of the conflict, how can they fight back other than the way they have been doing. As demonstrated in the West Bank, non violent resistance also leads to death.

In addition, let's look at the complete picture, the unbelievable disproportionate response to usually an action Hamas took which was in response to Israel's escalation dominance. Israel stirs the pot enough to get a response and then once they do, they flatten them, keeping in mind "to walk a fine line between outmatching the challenge with excessive force, on one hand and deflecting blame for escalating minor incidents to all-out wars”.

Hamas is in power because of Israel. This is a 65 year old conflict, of which 45 years of it, the Palestinians have lived under a brutal military occupation. Hamas wasn't even created until 1987 and didn't gain power within Gaza until 2007. First suicide bomber was 1989 which didn't even escalate into serious suicide bombing until the 2001. So for the majority of the conflict, the majority of the occupation, the Palestinians didn't bring out the big guns. It wasn't an Islamic government that the Gazans wanted, what they wanted is an uncorrupt government that would represent their interests, not sell them down the river and were not corrupt. They also wanted change, I think sometimes living in misery, anything is better than nothing. We have to remember too that Hamas provided for the people while Israel was refusing to abide by their obligations as occupier (and still don't). They are the ones that provided the social welfare for the people, not Israel. What has been done in Gaza since the beginning is unforgivable.

“An old man in Gaza held a placard that read: “You take my water, burn my olive trees, destroy my house, take my job, steal my land, imprison my father, kill my mother, bombard my country, starve us all, humiliate us all, but I am to blame: I shot a rocket back.”

Along with Israel, and the US's naked and continual aggression as demonstrated by drone attacks which costs more civilian lives than can every justify against the "terrorists" they kill need to take a close look in the mirror and honestly ask themselves "who is the terrorist"? I am telling you right now, we are on the wrong side of history on this one and it certainly will not end pretty.
 

Kit B. (276)
Wednesday December 5, 2012, 7:00 am

Of course, that was painful plea from a Palestinian man, but HE did not shoot any thing back, Hamas did. There is the difference. Hamas spends their money on arms and not on the people. Israel is ranked as the World's fourth largest armed military. Governance of people should mean that the people's needs come first. This alone is why I can not support the actions of Hamas, the true needs of the people are really at near survival levels, the rockets shot into Israel do not aid the Palestinian people, they only give excuses for yet more retaliations. Hamas could be winning the support of the world by focusing the development of the people, not being a tiny thorn in the side of a giant and ready to respond as a military government.
 

Alexander Werner (53)
Wednesday December 5, 2012, 10:27 am
I don't think ICC will be accepting anything from Palestinian Arabs. They are still not a regular state, and over a hundred of states considered a state of Palestine since late 80. The whole Communist block recognized them then.

If ICC does accept claims from Palestinian Arabs, it well may accept claims from Israel, and the list of abuses, murders and human rights violations by Palestinians is much longer.
 

Paulo R. (13)
Wednesday December 5, 2012, 10:53 am
A good post (story).
“This week, Washington devoted every effort to blocking a Palestinian initiative to upgrade its status at the U.N. but failed, in virtual international isolation as usual. The reasons were revealing: Palestine might approach the International Criminal Court about Israel's U.S.-backed crimes.”
This is what happens when you have a high Jewish influence in the U.S. Congress. The U.S. should back the Palestinians the same way it backs Israel. Why the discrimination? For a people (Jews) that went through the Holocaust, you would think they would have more compassion towards Arabs… The U.S. is providing Israel with at least $8.5 million each day in military aid and is giving the Palestinians $0 in military aid during Fiscal Year 2012.
“Since the October War in 1973, Washington has provided Israel with a level of support dwarfing the amounts provided to any other state. It has been the largest annual recipient of direct U.S. economic and military assistance since 1976 and the largest total recipient since World War ll. Israel receives about $3 billion in direct foreign assistance each year, which is roughly one-fifth of America's entire foreign aid budget. In per capita terms, the United States gives each Israeli a direct subsidy worth about $500 per year. This largesse is especially striking when one realizes that Israel is now a wealthy industrial state with a per capita income roughly equal to South Korea or Spain.”
John Mearsheimer, ‘The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy’
 

Paulo R. (13)
Wednesday December 5, 2012, 11:02 am
Palestine noa a real state? It was recognized by the United Nations General Assembly as a “state” on November 29, 2012. The UN General Assembly resolution 67/19 is a resolution upgrading Palestine to non-member observer “state” status. It was adopted by the 67th session of the UN General Assembly on 29 November 2012. Palestine is one of the smallest countries in the Middle East and is not contiguous, having a small exclave of territory bordering Egypt, Israel, and the Mediterranean Sea. The land areas encompass the "West Bank" and the area called "Gaza" bordering Israel and Egypt. Palestine's exact borders with Israel are disputed.
 

Elizabeth M. (68)
Wednesday December 5, 2012, 12:10 pm
Thanks for this great post.
In my own opinion Israel is going too far with its announcement to build thousands of new homes in the West Bank.
 

Aaron Bouchard (145)
Wednesday December 5, 2012, 1:50 pm
Noted thanks
 

Allan Yorkowitz (448)
Wednesday December 5, 2012, 3:38 pm
The first paragraph in this article was just foolish - the Palestinians have a non member, non participating place in the UN. This is making Israel "nervous"?
 

Thomas P. (468)
Wednesday December 5, 2012, 4:03 pm
Noted...thanks Carrie. They may be a non member in the UN, but they are definitely a people, and countries throughout the world are taking notice of Israel's heavy handedness and overreactions. I pray it will stop. And I'll say it again....Israel is in violation of international law with the building of new homes in the West Bank. That is universally recognized (including by the US). It was this administration that is the first in my memory to point that out to the Israelis.
 

Alexander Werner (53)
Wednesday December 5, 2012, 6:09 pm
Paola, over a hundred countries recognized a State of Palestine in late eighties, initiated by the Soviet Union and the Communist block.

I am not a lawyer to decide if this upgraded status gives Palestinian Arabs a right to go for ICC. Paola, US gives BILLIONS of bucks to Palestinians, in addition to money they milk from UN via UNWRA.

Palestinians are actively playing "Refugee" scam: not only they are Workd Best Paid Refugees, but even when a Palestinian Arab living in another Palestinian Arab state of Jordan has a child, the child automatically becomes a refugee!

UNWRA serves exclusively to the Arab ethnic group, leaving aside all the other refugee cases, very often much more appealing and deserving.

Now Palestinian Arabs again managed to get something without giving anything. The cheated on the agreement signed with Israel and raised the status of their state, yet they did not take any responsibilities over other Arab refugees, or kicked Hamas terrorists out of their offices.
 

Sue Matheson (76)
Wednesday December 5, 2012, 7:04 pm
thanks
 

Paulo R. (13)
Wednesday December 5, 2012, 8:11 pm
Bob, that’s Paulo.
U.S. support to Palestine is indirect unlike the Israeli support. The U.S. provided just over $61.5 million (as of 02/2009) in emergency humanitarian aid through USAID, UNRWA, and the International Committee of the Red Cross following Israel's assault on Gaza.

Statistics:
126 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,476 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis (since 2000).

1,096 Israelis and at least 6,568 Palestinians have been killed (since 2000).

0 Israelis are being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 5,604 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel (since 2000).

0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 24,813 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel (since 1967).

Israel currently has 236 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land.

Also, not all displaced Palestinians are Muslims. At the time of the creation of the Israeli state in 1948, it is estimated that the Christians of Palestine numbered some 350,000, almost 20 percent of the total population at the time. Yet Zionist doctrine held that Palestine was “a land without a people for a people without a land.” Of the 750,000 Palestinians that were forced from their homes in 1948, some 50,000 were Christians—7 percent of the total number of refugees and 35 percent of the total number of Christians living in Palestine at the time.
 

Alexander Werner (53)
Wednesday December 5, 2012, 8:29 pm
Sorry Paulo,

Please continue your statistics:
1. Palestinians were bombing Israeli civilians for many years and with thousands of rockets. Israel did not bomb Palestinian civilians indiscriminately. It avoided carpet bombing which Hamas does not because it cannot, but because it doesn't want to.

2. The numjber of killed Palestinians lumps together ones killed by "friendly" Palestinian fire, like Mohammed Durah. It includes majority fighters and militants. In comparison, 95% of killed Israelis are civilians.

3. Israelis do not invade homes of Palestinians at night to slaughter babies, like when Palestinians killed the Fogel family and tried to repeat this great deed recently.

4. Israelis do not send suicide bombers do bomb Palestinian Arab discos and pizza shops. Palestinian Arabs do.

5. Israel is entitled to build on disputed land as much, as PA and Gaza Arabs are. Palestinian Arabs build many settlements on Israeli land. It is media which keeps quiet about such thievery.

Also, lots of displaced Palestinians were Jews. Actually, Arab countries expelled many more Jews, than the number of Arabs who left Israel.

Christian Arabs have no problem in Israel. Christian Arabs have huge problems in many Arab countries: Egypt, Syria, Gaza.

UNWRA pays Palesinians about a Billion bucks a year. Canada gives 500 million over three years. US Aid gives another Billioin. All these money come in Cash, depleting economies of the donors.

US Aid to Israel comes as military equipment and other Made in USA products, and keeps about 50,000 American jobs. Moreover, Saudis buy everything Israelis get. This makes it "Buy One - Get One Free", and more US gives to Israel - more cash it will get from Saudis.
 

Alexander Werner (53)
Wednesday December 5, 2012, 8:32 pm
Margaret, Hamas is in power because Gazans voted it in. It is because Gazans, like Egyptians, preferred to be ruled by Islamist extremists imposing Sharia in daily lives. It is because Gazans like the message of Jihad with Israel until Israel's destruction.

And as Hamas is linked to other workd-wide Islamist militant network, its terrorist boss was eliminated. Don't BS anyone including yourself that the chief terrorist and rabid Islamist wanted to live in peace with the Jewish state.

 

Free G. (4)
Wednesday December 5, 2012, 9:06 pm
Bob states "I am not a lawyer "

No shit.
 

Carrie B. (318)
Wednesday December 5, 2012, 11:10 pm
It is is a good idea for all of us to remember and, or realize that Hamas came into existence because because of Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people. No, I do not like their methods, nor do I like the methods of the Israeli military. Everyone seems to have forgotten that people are suffering and dying because of the leaders of both Israel and Palestine. That being said, I have to say that Netanyahu is a war mongering idiot who is doing everything he can to provoke Hamas and cause more problems.

 

Paulo R. (13)
Thursday December 6, 2012, 5:04 am
Today Israeli E1 Settlement Plans were revealed in the West Bank. Palestinians and Israelis hardened their positions Wednesday over a contentious new settlement push around Jerusalem, with Israel going full throttle on plans to develop the area and the Palestinians trying to block it through an appeal to the U.N. Security Council. The settlement push – Israel's retaliation for the Palestinians' success in winning U.N. recognition of a de facto state – has touched off an escalating international showdown. Palestinians claim the construction would deal a death blow to Mideast peace hopes. Even Israel's staunchest allies have been outraged by the move, feeding speculation they might squeeze Israel more than usual to back down on its construction plans. Critics say the settlements would cut off traditionally Arab east Jerusalem from the West Bank and destroy hopes of establishing a viable Palestinian state alongside Israel, with Jerusalem as a shared capital. E-1 would also drive a deep wedge between the northern and southern West Bank.
Source: Huffington Post 12/06/2012.
 

Alexander Werner (53)
Thursday December 6, 2012, 9:55 am
Margaret, don't get too excited,

PA/Hamas may of course try using ICC, but then Israel could request ICC to deal with Hamas bombing of Israeli cities and villages. You see, Palestinians get much less free rides from Israel who knows them well, than from Western countries from afar.

I wasn't crapping my pants, Margaret, before the vote. UN with Islamist lobby printed by now hundreds or thousands of anti-Israel crap, and its bias is proven and explain. With the current oil prices, not many countries will go against the Islamic block and endanger their oil supplies. Communist block with Soviet Union recognized Palestine 40 years ago. Yeah sure, state Palestine can now join non-Jihadist UN clubs, if they are interested. Fine with me.

Interesting to see you repeating Islamist mantra about the non-existing "67 borders". Borders with which countries? And what claim this new country has for the thinigs what happen before its birth?

What can you say about the Palestinian "Refugee" scam:
"Palestinians are actively playing "Refugee" scam: not only they are Workd Best Paid Refugees, but even when a Palestinian Arab living in another Palestinian Arab state of Jordan has a child, the child automatically becomes a refugee! " ??

Nowadays, the role of Islamist PR worker is getting more and more difficult.
 

Paulo R. (13)
Thursday December 6, 2012, 11:56 am
In his speech to the United Nations, President Obama announced that he would veto U.N. recognition of a Palestinian state, because its independence was not a result of a negotiated settlement with Israel.

But President Obama neglected to mention a recent prominent example of unilateral independence, the State of Kosovo, which was recognized by the United States in 2008, even though its statehood did not come about through a negotiated settlement with Serbia. If an independent state of Palestine should only be recognized with Israel’s approval, then why did the U.S. recognize the independence of Kosovo, over the objections of Serbia? Why recognize Kosovo while at the same time hypocritically blocking a State of Palestine?

The conflict appears intractable because it is a contest over the same land by two peoples who believed they had valid title to it and who hoped that the other side would in time give up or go away. One side won the war, the other lost, but the contest is as alive as ever.

Palestinians ask why a Jew born in Warsaw or New York has the right to settle in Israel (according to Israel's Law of Return) whereas an Arab (a people who have lived in the area for centuries) cannot.

Violence, hatred, and intolerance are bred out of injustice, poverty, and a thwarted sense of political fulfillment. Even as Israeli citizens, Palestinians are treated as inferior, as basically a sort of underclass existing in a condition of apartheid.

Feelings of persecution, suffering and victimhood are so ingrained that it is nearly impossible to undertake political initiatives that hold Jews and Arabs to the same general principles of civil equality while avoiding the pitfalls of us-versus-them.
 

Alexander Werner (53)
Thursday December 6, 2012, 2:43 pm
Paulo, the State of Kosovo is another example of ethnic cleansing of Serbian people from their homeland.

After the Serbs surrendered to NATO invasion and made an agreement stipulating the Serbian territorial unity, Albanians cheated on the agreement and declared the state of their own in the land that is not theirs.

My explanation for this gross injustice is Islamist Lobby in Washington. Rich, secretive and powerful, it is not looking for a public support, but simply gets the "right" politicians on their side.

Your second point about the right to settle is even more interesting: The new state of Palestinian Arabs will not and does not offer asilym to the Palestinian Arab refugees! That's right. Palestinian Arabs living in Gaza are still considered "Refugees" by UN.

Same story in another state of Palestinian Arabs - Jordan! About 60% of Jordanian population are Palestinian Arabs, and they are also "UN Refugees" on UN payroll and our taxes.

To add here 21 other Arab state, the question comes back to you: why wouldn't Arab states offer help to their Arab brothers, like Israel gave to Jews, Germany to Germans, Serbia to Serbs, and the long list goes on and on.

Why Saudis refuse to sacrifice their oil income for 1 (ONE) day, to pay for their brothers, rather than appeal to Western infidel taxpayers?

This new Arab state is not a solution to anything. It will likely be a source of more problems. And more of our tax money wasted.
 

Paulo R. (13)
Friday December 7, 2012, 5:55 am
Bob,
To you question: “…the question comes back to you: why wouldn't Arab states offer help to their Arab brothers, like Israel gave to Jews, Germany to Germans, Serbia to Serbs, and the long list goes on and on.” To me it is not a questioned of Palestinians being helped by their neighbors, they don’t want the help, they want their country back! If I was taken away from my home, moving in with my neighbor would not solve the problem, I would want my house back. It is that simple. All the examples you listed are people helping their own people within their country. The Palestinians have been forced out of their country without any say in the matter. I too would be “pissed off” if I was in their shoes, I think anyone would.

Here is a good read for you and Free G.: “The Challenge of Israel: Fifty Years On” by Edward Said, Al-Ahram Weekly, 1998. Link: http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/1998/1948/360_said.htm

“There can be no erasing of the historical truth that the existence of Israel is predicated, indeed imposed upon, the obliteration of another society and people. Every Israeli knows this, as much as every Palestinian does: the question, writes Edward Said, is how long can an intolerable situation of proximity and injury be endured by the victims, and how long can it be deferred by the victors?”
 

Alexander Werner (53)
Friday December 7, 2012, 12:25 pm
Paulo, Arabs never had their own country in Palestine. Never-ever. Jews had, Turks had, Arabs - didn't.

They WANT to make a country - yes, another one in addition to 22 that Arab nation got as colonial powers gave counties only to the Arabs, ignoring all other nations.

Arabs have to recognize, that they started three wars against Israel. As they lost, they now have to pay for these wars, because such assaults cannot go unpunished. Skipping the punishment of criminals will give them a wrong idea about their future behavior.

Arab "refugees" have to remind all Arab rulers, talking about One Arab Nation in the Arab League and boyond, that keeping them as "refugees" is a violation of their human rights, and these very same rulers are guilty in starting the wars and calling for Arab people to save themselves and leave Israel before everything there will be destroyed.

People with a basic decency would be ashamed to come to those whom trey betrayed in the time of need. Druze stood and fought Arabs together with Jews, and now Druze and Jews live peacefully in Israel.

 

Alexander Werner (53)
Friday December 7, 2012, 12:29 pm
And even Arabs who decided to stay in Israel despite the war still leave peacefully with Jews and Druze!
 

Paulo R. (13)
Friday December 7, 2012, 5:09 pm
It is hard to say that a people with a population of roughly 4 million people localized in Gaza and the West Bank don’t have, or have never had, a country. The Palestinian people are the modern descendants of people who have lived in Palestine over many centuries and today are largely culturally and linguistically Arab. Palestine is a full member of the Arab League and recognized by the majority of the World's nation states, but not recognized by Israel or most Western states. Despite various wars and exoduses, roughly one half of the world's Palestinian population continues to reside in the area encompassing the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and Israel.
Israelis themselves were “nomads” and did not have a country (state) prior to 1948. The Jews were “moved-into” Palestine while the Palestinian Arabs were “moved-out” of the area. As if this wasn’t bad enough the Israelis have never learned to co-exist with the Palestinians. Israel has, since its foundation, yearned to expand its territory at the expense of moving Palestinian out of their home. I don’t think a 50/50 solution was ever to be accepted by either side. That would have been the ideal solution. To make matters worst, for the Palestinians, Israel has managed to gain and keep the support of the United States.
 

Kathleen B. (37)
Friday December 7, 2012, 5:21 pm
Hamas was encouraged if not created and funded by the Israeli government, who encouraged Sheik Hassin (who was killed by an Israeli targeted assassination, though he was blind, crippled and elderly and could have easily been arrested) to compete with Fatah, to implement more division among Palestinians. The old divide and conquer routine, perfected by the British, imho.
Fatah was corrupted by Israeli money or and/coercion.
Hamas was voted in because they implemented many social programs, charities and actually gained converts by representing the wishes of the Palestinians for a change --- they were elected in a free and fair election monitored by the international community, including Former President Jimmy Carter.
Israel & US immediately went into action to crush Hamas for the audacity of the indigenous people to wish for positive political change, which includes justice, wanting their homes and land back or compensation and their exiled refugees to have the right of return.
By the way the Hamas Charter was amended and states it will abide by the wishes of the Palestinian population.
 

Alexa R. (330)
Friday December 7, 2012, 9:32 pm
Greg M, Gaza is NOT occupied. Israel evacuated every single Jewish family back in 2005 as was demanded by PLO/PA/Hamas. Gaza is 100% Judenfrei at present and has been since 2005 (even though Jewish families had been living in the Gaza area for over 3500 years). Try staying up to date with events when you wish to comment, else you might appear ignorant to the informed reader/commenter.

Free G and Kate B, your imaginations are running away with you. Only a very-uninformed reader would take your wild accusations and illogical ‘conclusions’ seriously.

Kit B: “Hamas could be winning the support of the world by focusing [on] the development of the people, not being a tiny thorn in the side of a giant ready to respond as a military government.”

Exactly Kit. And this tiny thorn (Hamas) has the backing of the MB, Iran, Syria and a host of other enemies of Israel who declare quite clearly that their aim is to ‘wipe Israel of the face of the Earth’. Israel might be many things, but as the Americans would say: ‘we ain’t stupid’ when it comes to terrorists.

Thomas P, even a very basic understanding of international law makes it crystal clear that building new homes in certain parts of Samaria and Judea (West Bank) is NOT a violation of international law. Israel has built settlements over the years in less than 5% of the disputed territories. Israel has been wise enough to avoid territories within the West Bank that have been specifically ear-marked by the UN back in 1947 for the Palestinians. In fact, Israel has evacuated every single Jewish family in 2005, even those who had lived uninterrupted for 3500 years in Samaria and Judea (now called West Bank Block A) as per the demands of the PLO/PA in the hope to negotiate peace. Thus, like Gaza, West Bank Block A is 100% Judenfrei. It is only in West Bank Block B where Israel has taken less than 5% of land( originally ear-marked for Palestine in 1947) during the 1967 war with Jordan and company. Jordan, a sovereign state at the time (together with Syria and United Arab Republic (Egypt)), started the war with Israel and Israel won the war. Thus legally, that less than 5% of Palestine is Israel’s land. Had Arafat accepted the UN Partition Plan back in 1947, as Israel did, they would have had that extra nearly 5% as well as being a state today. Israel’s legal case for that less than 5% of ‘Palestine’ is a strong one.

Israel has, since the 1967 war, twice over offered the PLO/PA 95% of West Bank, in 1993 and in 1997. Both offers were rejected by the PLO/PA. Therefore this less than 5% has now become known as the Disputed Territories. The extra nearly 5% increases Israel’s security immensely, this was the extra land Israel needed to win the war back in 1967 against Jordan and company. Therefore Israel’s case for needing this nearly 5% of disputed ‘Palestine’ land is a strong one legally.

Paulo R, Arabs were NEVER forced to leave their homes or any part of the land ear-marked for the Jewish people. Here is a Palestinian lady whose family knew that Jews are kindly people and who made the decision to become Israelis back in 1947:

Growing up Palestinian in the Israeli "Occupation"

By Sarah Elshazly

Ever since I was a child, I've heard different accounts from different sources on what happened to the Palestinians and Palestine. I heard the Jewish side and the Arab side. The side that no one seems to want to hear, is of those who lived and live there. The Israeli Arabs. Rare as we are in terms of a world wide nation, we exist. Despite the fact that some Jews may want us out of Israel and some Arabs believe that we are extension of the Zionists, we exist. We keep our culture and tradition. Mahshy, or stuffed grape leaves, remain our favorite meal and not lox and cream cheese(Which is actually the food of Eastern European Jews and not Israeli Jews). We love Arabic music and sing old folk songs which include "wein aa Ramallah" a name of a famous Palestinian city, as well as songs from all over the Arab world. We are however different. We have vested interest in both sides and are angry at both sides.

Israeli Arabs have lived side by side with Jews for as long as this generation can remember. We have lived as Israeli citizens since 1948. Before that, the region wasn't quite as divided. Families lived in different cities in the area which includes the West Bank, Gaza, Amman and other Arab cities in areas where borders were created later. All of the sudden, Palestinians became strangers to their own families. We were divided by boundaries set by the Europeans and those within the boundaries of Israel became "Israeli Arabs". The Israeli Arabs have become the unwanted, unloved, illegitimate, biracial step-child of the Middle East conflict. No one wants to associate themselves with us and no one wants us to identify ourselves as one of them. We have to apologize for our existence.

What angers me the most about this is the stories that I heard as child from those ones who stayed behind. Palestinians who fled their homes and lost their families and children and most of all their dignity are angry, bitter and distraught. No one can blame them. They seem to have been taught who they are supposed to hate, who is the guilty party and who should be punished for their problems. Peoples' memories are so short . It is easier to have a focused on one enemy- especially an enemy who does not belong to the same "tribe", than to analyze a situation such as the Palestinian refugees disaster.

The question is, why did Arabs living in what became Israel flee? The ones who remained in their homes actually live and prosper. So why didn't they stay. There is the one focused obvious enemy, Israel. But is that the truth? It is not my place or my purpose to discuss who belongs in that tiny region called Israel, but it is my intent and reason for risking shunning by my own community to set the record straight. The Arab world warned the Palestinians of staying with the Jews. They also warned them that they were going in to fight the Zionists and that the Palestinians should leave in order for them not to get hurt. Many Palestinians trusted these Arab leaders and left. Bad blood had existed between some groups of Arabs and Jews- enough to flame the Propaganda machines. Those who lived with Jews for a long time, were not as easily convinced and stayed home. My family members have always told us that there were cars going around telling people to stay put. The cars contained Jews. They told everyone that they will not harm them. Thus we have the situation where Jews are begging Arabs to stay and live with them and other Arabs from outside the country were telling them to flee for their lives.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?62870-Growing-up-Palestinian-in-the-Israeli-quot-Occupation-quot
 

Paulo R. (13)
Saturday December 8, 2012, 1:34 pm
Alexandra, you are Jewish and live in Tel Aviv, by default you have to favor the Israeli cause. What if you had been born an Arab, would your views be different?

“Arabs were never forced to leave their homes or any part of the land ear-marked for the Jewish people.” Not sure I understand your statement, are we talking about the same Israel?

The Holocaust had a major impact on the situation in Palestine. In November 1947, the UN General Assembly voted 33 to 13 (with 10 abstentions) in favor of a Partition Plan that “created” the State of Israel, but there was already a large population of Arabs living in the region where the nation was created and naturally they contested the plan.

The British relinquished their mandate over Palestine in 1948. War broke out between the Arabs and Jews soon after and the number of Arab displaced citizens began to grow. The 1948 Arab-Israeli War, established the state of Israel as an independent state, with the rest of the British Mandate of Palestine split into areas controlled by Egypt and Transjordan. In 1949, Israel signed separate cease-fire agreements with Egypt, Lebanon, Transjordan, and Syria. Israel was able to “draw” its own borders, occupying 70% of Mandatory Palestine, 50% more than the UN partition proposal allotted them.

The U.N. stepped in and attempted to help the situation through the construction of refugee camps for misplaced Palestinian people. Most Palestinians went along with the U.N. plan under the impression they would eventually return home.

* On a side note, what is unique about Jerusalem (or what complicates the situation) is that the holy city is home to the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam. I’m Christian; my point of view is more neutral.
 

Carrie B. (318)
Saturday December 8, 2012, 1:45 pm
Sending a Green Star is a simple way to say "Thank you"
You cannot currently send a star to Paulo because you have done so within the last week.
 

Alexa R. (330)
Saturday December 8, 2012, 2:19 pm
This is what Hamas put up on the screen during a music video in the last week of the recent rocket rain on Israel on its al Aqsa TV station:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9jGsrQI5dw&feature=player_embedded

'Killing Jews is worship that draws us close to Allah'.



Lyrics of songs on this video included these little ditties:



'[Oh] lovers of the trigger: Killing the occupiers [Israelis] is worship that Allah made into law...'



'Brigades - we kidnap soldiers, Brigades - we kill Jews'



and



'Repeat in the name of your Jihad: Death to Israel!'

Would you call this homicidal, Free G?
 

Alexa R. (330)
Saturday December 8, 2012, 2:27 pm
Paulo, as a friend of mine, Gillian often says so well, I say too:

There is actually a land given to the "Palestinians" that not one of you ever mention.

How did the Arab territory of Transjordan come into being?

The 1922 White Paper (also called the Churchill White Paper) was the first official manifesto interpreting the Balfour Declaration. It was issued on June 3, 1922, after investigation of the 1921 disturbances. Although the White Paper stated that the Balfour Declaration could not be amended and that the Jews were in Palestine by right, it partitioned the area of the Mandate by excluding the area east of the Jordan River from Jewish settlement. That land, 76% of the original Palestine Mandate land, was renamed Transjordan and was given to the Emir Abdullah by the British.

The White Paper included the statement that the British Government:

… does not want Palestine to become “as Jewish as England is English”, rather should become “a center in which Jewish people as a whole may take, on grounds of religion and race, an interest and a pride.”

After the partition, Transjordan remained part of the Palestine Mandate and its legal system applied to all residents, both East and West of the Jordan River, who all carried Palestine Mandate passports. Palestine Mandate currency was the legal tender in Transjordan as well as the area West of the river. This was the consistent situation until 1946, 24 years later, when Britain completed the action by unilaterally granting Transjordan its independence. Thus the British subverted the purpose of the Palestine Mandate, partitioned Palestine and created an independent Palestine-Arab state with no regard for the rights and needs of the Jewish population.

According to Sir Alec Kirkbride, the British representative in the area, Transjordan was:

… intended to serve as a reserve of land for use in the resettlement of Arabs once the National Home for the Jews in Palestine, which [Britain was] pledged to support, became an accomplished fact. There was no intention at that stage of forming the territory east of the River Jordan into an independent Arab state.

In 1925, the British added 60,000 sq. km. of desert to eastern Transjordan forming an “arm” of land to connect Transjordan with Iraq and to cut Syria off from the Arabian Peninsula. The British continued to favor exclusive Arab development east of the Jordan River by enacting restrictive regulations against the Jews, even when Arab leaders sought Jewish involvement in the development of Transjordan.

 

Alexa R. (330)
Saturday December 8, 2012, 5:11 pm
Free G. (0)
Saturday December 8, 2012, 4:08 pm
OMG Alexandra. So how do you justify Israel's brutality prior to any suicide bombing Alexandra, prior to Hamas?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

TOMORROW marks the 40th anniversary of the 1972 Munich massacre in which Palestinian militants killed 11 members of the Israeli Olympic team. For many Westerners, the incident was the most chilling example of international terrorism before 9/11.

Munich — and the lessons learned from it — played a pivotal role in shaping American views on terrorism: Terrorists were bloodthirsty fanatics bent on spreading destruction and anarchy. Negotiation with such extremists was futile and immoral. The only acceptable response was to crush them.

This was essentially America’s response to terrorism for the next four decades as the frequency and ferocity of attacks rose. As terrible as Munich was, the response from President Richard M. Nixon did nothing to help the situation; rather it played into the hands of the most militant Palestinian factions, ensuring that the violence would continue.

Most scholars of the Palestine Liberation Organization now agree that attacks like the one in Munich were designed by Yasir Arafat’s rivals to shift power away from moderates and into the hands of more radical factions. The string of attacks attributed to the Palestinian Black September Organization between November 1971 and March 1973

OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
When It Pays to Talk to Terrorists
By PAUL THOMAS CHAMBERLIN
Published: September 3, 2012

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/04/opinion/when-it-pays-to-talk-to-terrorists.html?_r=0

To recognize the factual reality that Arafat is a brutal terrorist who has relied on the deliberate targeting of innocent civilians from the very beginning of his career and who continues to do so today, while at the same time recognizing that it may be necessary to negotiate even with mass murderers in order to achieve peace.

The evidence that Arafat is a mass murderer is overwhelming and is beyond reasonable dispute. As a criminal law professor and a practicing criminal defence lawyer for nearly 40 years, I can attest, with absolute certainty, that there is enough evidence against Arafat to assure his conviction of first degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder in any fair legal system anywhere in the world.

The evidence includes his own words, both oral and written, the eyewitness testimony of close associates and an overwhelming amount of documentary and circumstantial evidence.

Were Arafat a mafia don or a drug kingpin he would be spending the rest of this life in prison. On the facts currently available, the case against Arafat is far more compelling than the case against Osama bin Laden, both in terms of the quality and quantity of the evidence, and in terms of the number of deaths for which their organizations are responsible.
 

Alexa R. (330)
Saturday December 8, 2012, 6:17 pm
Free G. (0)
Saturday December 8, 2012, 6:06 pm
Your logic is because Arafat was a criminal, the Palestinian people should be punished

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No.
 

Alexa R. (330)
Saturday December 8, 2012, 8:03 pm
Free G. (1)
Saturday December 8, 2012, 6:37 pm

What though Alexandra will be left if Israel continues down this very dangerous path

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This lady answers you much better than I perhaps can (wherever she puts Mr Hague, you may replace with your own name if you like), I agree with her 100% in this:

Subject: Open Letter to British Foreign Secretary William Hague


During the Gaza crisis last week, British Foreign Secretary, William Hague, warned Israel that if it sent troops into Gaza to confront Hamas, it risked loosing the sympathy of the international community. On November 19th, a Jewish woman in Britain, Mindy Wiesenberg, sent the following letter to Mr. Hague, in response. The letter has been published in many newspapers, including the Times of Israel.


Dear Mr Hague

You have stated that if Israel tries to defend its population through a ground offensive in Gaza it risks losing the sympathy of the
international community.¹


Let me tell you something about the sympathy of the international
community Mr Hague. My father was liberated from Buchenwald
concentration camp in 1945, having lost his entire family but gaining the sympathy of the international community at the time. After 6 million Jews had been annihilated at the hands of the Nazi regime, the international community had plenty of sympathy for the Jewish people.There is always plenty of sympathy for victims.

Israel doesn¹t need the sympathy of the international community.
What it needs is to defend its citizens.


When as a tiny country it gained its independence in 1948 it had to absorb 800,000 Jews who were thrown out of Arab lands in the Middle East, and it did so without fuss and with dignity giving them shelter and a place of security in which their children could grow up to become productive citizens.


When Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria tried to destroy Israel in 1948 and again in 1967 they took in hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs, but did they give them dignity or shelter? No they left them to rot in refugee camps in order to maintain a symbol of grievance against Israel and use them as a political too against the Jewish state.. What has arisen in those camps is a complicated situation, but it is what has led to Gaza today.

So don¹t lecture Israel on international sympathy Mr Hague.
Not when Israel has just sent in 120 truck loads of food into Gaza to feed the Palestinian people there, because their own leadership is more interested in using its population as human shields, launching rockets against Israel from within major civilian centres.

Don¹t lecture Israel on international sympathy Mr Hague.
Not when Israel targets with as much military precision as it can, only terrorists and their bases, trying its utmost to prevent civilian
casualties.

Don¹t lecture Israel on international sympathy Mr Hague.
Not when the Palestinian media deliberately uses images of victims of the Syrian civil war and presents them as casualties in Gaza to gain international sympathy.

Go read your history books Mr Hague, go see that since the beginning of the twentieth century all the Arabs wanted to do was destroy Israel. Go look at the country of Israel now since the Jews have established a state there. Go read what advances in science, medicine, biotechnology, agriculture and high tech Israel has developed, and dedicated that knowledge to making the world a better place for humanity. Can you imagine any other country that after 60 years of continuously being under attack could have achieved so much.

So Mr Hague don¹t lecture Israel on international sympathy.
Israel will do whatever it takes to defend itself from outright attack
on its citizens, whether it be from Hamas, Hizbollah, Iran or any other country or terrorist group that attacks it.

And if it loses the sympathy of the international community that had lost its moral compass so be it.


We don¹t need another 6 million victims.

Yours sincerely,




MINDY WIESENBERG
 

Alexa R. (330)
Saturday December 8, 2012, 10:01 pm
Free G. (1)
Saturday December 8, 2012, 9:18 pm

Is that acceptable Alexandra, when 97% of the casualties are civilians, not "terrorists" and one-third dead are children?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No. It is not acceptable to me, MINDY WIESENBERG, Netanyah or any Israeli/IDF. This is what Mindy W had to say about it: "Not when Israel has just sent in 120 truck loads of food into Gaza to feed the Palestinian people there, because their own leadership is more interested in using its population as human shields, launching rockets against Israel from within major civilian centres."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Free G. (1)
Saturday December 8, 2012, 9:18 pm
Alexandra - A long term ceasefire was being negotiated and to all reports indicates that it was successful prior to what started the Gaza "offensive"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We in Israel (our leaders) live in eternal hope for a lasting and permanent ceasefire and do all we can to achieve it. We've no interest in conflict, we gain nothing from an ongoing conflict. Peace is what Israel has been after since 1947. And all the facts back this desire of Israel for peace with its neighbours since 1947.


 

Paulo R. (13)
Saturday December 8, 2012, 11:26 pm
Alexandra, I know Gillian here on Care2, she too is Jewish. I had an interesting argument with her about a month back regarding Muslims and the Quran in particular, the lady is very hateful of both and likes to stereotype. Anyway, I did mention Transjordan on my post listed above. What I have not yet mentioned, and few folks know about is the existence of Mandatory Palestine.

Mandatory Palestine was a geopolitical entity under British administration, carved out of Ottoman Southern Syria after World War I. British civil administration in Palestine operated from 1920 until 1948. This administration was formalized with the League of Nations' consent in 1923 under the British Mandate for Palestine which covered two administrative areas. The land west of the Jordan River, known as Palestine, was under direct British administration until 1948, while the land east of the Jordan was a semi-autonomous region known as Transjordan, under the rule of the Hashemite family from the Hijaz, and gained independence in 1946.

* Here is an interesting bit of information (history) I ran across recently that I did not know and was very surprised to learn regarding Arabs during World War II. The Azerbaijani Legion was one of the foreign units of the Wehrmacht (the unified armed forces of Nazi Germany from 1935 to 1945). The Azerbaijani Legion was formed in December 1941 as the “Muslim Caucasus Legion” and was re-designated 1942 into two separate legions, the North Caucasian legion and the Azerbaijani legion. It was made up mainly of former Azerbaijani POW volunteers but also volunteers from other peoples in the area recruited into the German Army of the Third Reich. It was used to form the 162nd (Turkistan) Infanterie-Division of the Wehrmacht in 1943. Later, some of these Azerbaijanis joined the Azeri Waffen SS Volunteer Formations.
Was an early “seed” of hatred toward Arabs planted after this fact occurred?

We here in the U.S. had our home grown branch of terrorism (i.e. Timothy McVeigh). Remember the terrorist bomb attack on the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in downtown Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995? It would remain the most destructive act of terrorism on American soil until the September 11, 2001 attacks. The Oklahoma blast claimed 168 lives, including 19 children under the age of 6, and injured more than 680 people.
 

Alexa R. (330)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 5:39 am
Free G. (1)
Saturday December 8, 2012, 10:58 pm
Alexandra

Gaza has no economy and why does it have no economy because Israel controls what goes in and what goes out.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This statement so obviously cannot possibly be further from the truth and facts. The very reason my government did all the expense and time to write reports on the economic situation in Gaza is because we care for the average citizen in Gaza and apart from caring about them from a humane point of view, we also care about their welfare for the following reasons:

• Israel has a vested interest in a stable and prosperous Palestinian society

• During the Oslo era Israel supported investment in the Palestinian areas, and encouraged international financial support from other countries for the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza .

• Palestinian terrorism is the root cause of the Palestinians' economic woes. It has brought about the slowdown in inward investment, and caused a massive increase in unemployment in the territories. Thousands of Palestinians who previously worked in Israel have been unable to retain their work (Israel has this year - Nov 2012 - upped their quota of work permits to Palestinians to work in Israel from 10,000 to 40,000).

• Former Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat presided over massive corruption, so does Hamas and PA (Palestinians have the highest aid per head of any peoples on this planet - from this alone the should have been able to live prosperously).

• Israel has a vested interest in seeing Gaza becoming stable and prosperous.

• In conditions of peace and stability Israel would wish to share its technological expertise and would have every reason to do so with the Palestinian people. (eg. Israel share expertise with Hiati to great success for the people there - we also do a lot like organise free holiday camps and trips to the sea-side, educational trips, etc for the children of Gaza (like we do for our own children in the south of Israel who are traumatised by the violence of terrorism).

As I said before in this thread, perhaps you've missed it? Israel has nothing to gain from conflict with Gaza. Conflict with Gaza/Palestine has no benefit for Israel in any way, shape or form.
 

Alexa R. (330)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 5:52 am
Paulo Rocha (7)
Saturday December 8, 2012, 11:26 pm
Was an early “seed” of hatred toward Arabs planted after this fact occurred?

We Israelis have no time nor the energy for hatred. Hatred prevents someone from being creative and inventive.

This is some of what we Israelis spend our time and energy on:

The Wolfson Medical Centre in the Tel-Aviv suburb of Holon is the site of a medical project called Save A Child's Heart . Since 1995, Israeli staff in the Centre's cardiology department have been carrying out open-heart surgery without charge for children from all over the world, and offering rehabilitation. Children have received treatment from China , Congo , Ecuador , Nigeria , Vietnam , and many other countries. The Centre has a success rate of 96%. It has a very low public profile, and has no public relations apparatus.

150 Palestinian Arab children have undergone heart surgery or catheter procedures at the Wolfson Medical Centre.

The Centre's website states that it treats children regardless of race, creed, colour, sex or religion.

For more information about Save A Child's Heart go to www.saveachildsheart.com .

Rarely remarked upon by the international media, Israeli medical experts are cooperating with Palestinian and Arab counterparts on significant medical projects. Three examples:-

• Joint research underway into the genetic origins of deafness:

Teams at Bethlehem University and at Tel-Aviv University are working together to investigate the genetic causes of deafness. The Israeli and Palestinian professors leading the project have now launched a graduate research programme to enable Palestinian students to pursue post-graduate research in this field at Tel-Aviv University . Said Israeli Professor Karen Avraham: “Something clicked between me and [my Palestinian counterpart] Prof Moien Kanaan, our common scientific interests, the fact that we both believe in peace, and in building a future together….” (Health – Israel 21c – 16.02.03)

• Gene research to help Arab children: Israeli researchers at Ben-Gurion University are working in parallel with researchers in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait (the teams cooperate through third parties) to identify a defective gene that causes a rare and usually fatal disease in Arab children, arising from severe calcium deficiency (Health – Israel 21c – 10.8.03)

• Israeli team uses revolutionary surgical procedure to save the life of Arab girl: An Israeli team at Jerusalem 's Hadassah-Hebrew University medical centre recently used a revolutionary technique to save the life of a 2 year old Arab girl from Jerusalem , who was born without immune systems. The technique used genetically altered stem cells; its success in this case came after 18 months of treatment for the girl (Health – Israel 21c – 01.07.02) .

• Water-saving irrigation system from Motorola Israel : Motorola's R&D facility in Israel has developed another in its line of products which apply state-of-the-art IT and communications technology to urban and rural water conservation. The product – Radio Piccolo XR – communicates remotely with a central irrigation control system and can be used to regulate water use in rural areas, but also in city parks, and municipal water supply systems (Technology – Israel 21c – 29.09.03).

• Israeli solar energy projects in California rise up the energy agenda: Israeli company Solel has been operating solar power stations in California for over 20 years. The company's innovative solar energy technology is attracting increasing interest, as the US looks for alternative, clean sources of energy, and also looks to reduce its vulnerability to terrorist attacks against conventional energy facilities. Solel is based in Jerusalem and the central Israeli town of Bet Shemesh (Technology – Israel 21c – 30.06.02) . It has also been reported that the world's largest solar power station is planned for the Negev desert in southern Israel , under the auspices of Israel 's National Solar Energy Centre (Technology – Israel 21c – 15.06.03).

• Israel pioneers novel greenhouse nets to improve growth of plants: Engineers have developed a revolutionary range of greenhouse nets that use the light spectrum in shades of blue, red, pearl and grey to regulate the growth of plants inside greenhouses. The so-called Chromatinets are being marketed by Israeli kibbutz-based company Polysack. Grey nets induce additional branches and increase yields; blue nets induce short branches which assist packing and export; and red and pearl nets accelerate overall plant growth. All the chromatinets are environmentally-friendly. Another Israeli company, Klayman Meteor, has developed a new type of net that increases effectiveness against insects and viruses, and thereby increases plant yields (Technology – Israel 21c – 29.09.03) . These new products have obvious attractions for farmers throughout the developing world eager to increase productivity.

• Improved efficiency for fuel cells in cars: A team of scientists at The Technion in Haifa has achieved a breakthrough in the design of fuel cells for cars. The team has improved the method of producing hydrogen for fuel cells using so-called solar water splitting systems. The project has attracted the interest of Royal Dutch Shell, and Daimler Chrysler. Fuel-cells are widely seen as the key to making environmentally friendly “clean” cars commercially available in the future, and reducing the world's dependence on highly-polluting oil (Technology – Israel 21c – 28.10.02) .

• Cleaner and safer air from air-conditioners: Air-conditioning systems are expensive to run, waste energy, are environmentally damaging, and inefficient at dealing with humidity. Some systems contribute to so-called Sick Building Syndrome. Israeli company Dry-Kor, based in Atlit in Northern Israel , has developed a new air conditioning technology which lessens the chance of chemical contamination of the air, by not only cooling the air, but removing the bacteria in the air. “We are practically washing the air” said the company's founder. The technique could have particular benefits for hospital operating rooms, laboratory clean rooms, and for food manufacturers and drugs companies where it is essential that air is kept clean and bacteria-free (Technology – Israel 21c – 30.12.02).

• Hands-free computer navigation to help the physically disabled : Using the internet and a PC has depended in the past on being able to manipulate a mouse by hand to navigate the screen. Israeli company Commodio has now developed the world's first Voice Mouse – the screen responds to commands from the human voice. Using the voicemouse (called QPointer Handsfree ), the user can write and send email, use the Internet, and create and edit documents, without using his or her hands. The product is expected to be of particular value to those who suffer from Parkinson's disease, paralysis or other physical disabilities. Microsoft has chosen Commodio as its business partner for voice operations (Technology – Israel 21c – 09.02.03)

• Israeli team create the world's smallest computing device: Scientists at Israel 's Weizmann Institute of Science in Rehovot have created the world's smallest computing device. The device uses so-called DNA (or biological) computing instead of silicon microchips, and marks a breakthrough in biological computing methods. The device operates at a computing speed equivalent to 15 trillion computers, and is more than one million times more energy-efficient than a PC. In the future, DNA computing is set to move from the realm of near-science-fiction, to transform pharmaceutical research (Technology – Israel 21c – 13.04.03) .

• Preventing city power failures and blackouts : Israeli company Satec, a world leader in electrical power products, has developed a system called ExpertPower for monitoring and preventing power breakdowns and blackouts. The system monitors energy distribution and use, and provides real-time reports via the Internet to assist in avoiding power system overloading. The chairman of Jerusalem-based Satec claims that ExpertPower could have helped avert the recent massive power failures in the Eastern United States (Technology – Israel 21c – 05.10.03)

• Israeli engineers behind Intel's new Centrino chip: In March 2003 Intel, the world's leading chip manufacturer, unveiled its new microchip, the Centrino, in a worldwide marketing campaign. The Centrino's key advantage is its low electricity consumption, making it highly suitable for laptop PCs, notebooks, the new generation of mobile phones, and other mobile devices. The Centrino was developed at Intel's Israeli R&D facility in Haifa , Northern Israel . Intel's Haifa centre is working with a second Intel Israel facility, in Petach Tikva, on the next generation of processors for cellular networks (Technology – Israel 21c – 09.03.03) .

• Protecting websites from hackers – Israeli-made product as de facto leader: Attacks by hackers on websites is one of the most serious challenges facing companies and non-profit organisations on the internet. In 2002, US company Sanctum was recognised by industry consultants as the “de facto” leader in meeting this challenge. Sanctum markets products which enhance website “firewalls” by adding a further layer of security against attack. Sanctum's two products AppScan and AppShield were developed in Sanctum's research centre in Herzliya in central Israel (Technology – Israel 21c – 05.08.02) .
 

Alexa R. (330)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 8:17 am
Free G. (1)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 6:30 am

You seem to argue that the European sectioning of foreign lands is somehow justified and legal - that native land can be given away with the flick of a quill in the British Parliament.

~~~~~~~~~~

No I don't. Neither does my government(leaders).

~~~~~~~~~~

When the land of Israel was under British management, there was no capital for all of Mandate Palestine - its capital was and is London. Neither West of the Jordan River nor the trans-Jordan Mandate of Palestine had any other capital than London at that time.

Before it was under British management, it was under Ottoman occupation. Once again, simply as extended land with Istanbul as Capital.

Before that it was occupied by Crusaders with various European capitals, the western part of Palestine, nor trans-Jordan Palestine had an independent capital at the time of the Crusaders.

Before that, the land of Israel (western and trans-Jordan Palestine) was under Roman occupation without an independent capital here in the lands of Israel.

The last time in history that the lands of Israel was any distinct country with its own capital city called Jerusalem, was when it was ruled by Jewish kings.

The same goes for currency used in the land of Israel. All the occupying rulers from British, Ottoman, Crusaders and Rome - all brought their currencies to the land of Israel as extended lands to their empires.

Thus if any people could claim sole right to the lands of Israel, it is the Jews, specially since they have had an uninterrupted presence, living in the lands of Israel for over 3500 years! Had and have their own capital Jerusalem, their own currency, their own language. The language, capital and currency of Israel is Jewish and has been before occupations.

But none of us Israelis, including our government are interested in claiming sole rights to the land of Israel.

As what is evident with the Palestinians who live in Israel today (for some weird reason called 'Israeli Arabs' instead of Palestinians by anti-Semites) we are happily co-existing. We have never been interested in making Israel Palestinianfrei in response to Gaza and West Bank Block A being Judenfrei on PLO/PA/Hamas demand.

The same is true for the language of the land of Israel. During British, Ottoman, Crusader, Roman occupation, the main language had simply been that of the occupiers. The last time Israel had an official and independent language of its own was under the Jewish kings.

A question for you, but feel free to not answer it: why during all these occupations from Rome, Crusaders, Ottoman and British, did the Palestinians never try to become independent or have a country of their own? Why was the Jewish being restored to their capital of Jerusalem suddenly the time when Palestinians became known as a people who wants to have their own country?

By all means, we Israelis dream with all our hearts that if only the Palestinian leaders like Hamas/PA/PLO could desire a fraction of the desire our government/leaders have for peace ...
 

Paulo R. (13)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 11:21 am
Alexandra and Free G., I’ve enjoyed reading your posts (even though at times too long with all the quotations, cut-and-paste – I think a link to the articles would have sufficed). A lot of new information I had not read before. Interesting to read how each side defends the issue and their belief.

Alexandra wrote: “A question for you: Why during all these occupations from Rome, Crusaders, Ottoman and British, did the Palestinians never try to become independent or have a country of their own? Why were the Jews suddenly being restored to their capital of Jerusalem at a time when Palestinians became known as a people who want their own country?”

I think the same question could be asked of the Jews. Also, Jerusalem the capital of the Jews? What about the Christians and Muslims? Both have a right to claim (and have in the past) Jerusalem as their capital too. Again, we could go back to what has been written above regarding Transjordan and Mandatory Palestine. Just as Transjordan became the country of Jordan, Mandatory Palestine would have most likely become the country of Palestine if the UN had not intervened in 1948.

From one of my favorite authors, Edward Said: "The question to be asked is how long can the history of anti-semitism and the Holocaust be used as a fence to exempt Israel from arguments and sanctions against it for its behavior towards the Palestinians, arguments and sanctions that were used against other repressive governments, such as South Africa? How long are we going to deny that the cries of the people of Gaza... are directly connected to the policies of the Israeli government and not to the cries of the victims of Nazism?" “You cannot continue to victimize someone else just because you yourself were a victim once—there has to be a limit”

Said recognized that Israel's exemption from the normal criteria by which nations are measured owed everything to the Holocaust. But while recognizing its unique significance, he did not see why its legacy of trauma and horror should be exploited to deprive the Palestinians, a people who were "absolutely dissociable from what has been an entirely European complicity", of their rights.
 

Alexander Werner (53)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 11:36 am
Margaret (Free G),

You blame Alexander that she "cut and paste articles that are based on myth, not on reality" while this is just you who does exactly that.

If you are unhappy about lands given "with the flick of a quill in the British Parliament", then you want to re-negotiate all 22 Arab countries, given by Brits to their personal and loyal friends. This is the purest and true colonialism in action.

Margaret, if people want to live in a country they have to be loyal to that country. A Pakistani or Iraqi man killing US soldier and caught as PoW is PoW, and not a traitor. A US-born man who travels to Pakistan and Iraq and fight US soldiers is a traitor.

Same applies to Israel. If someone wants to mourn a creation of Israel, he can leave Israel for 22 other Arab states, with different levels of Sharia implemented to his tastes and mourn from there in a great company, with lots of outdoor activities, like burning Israel and American flags and occasional drugging bodies of alleged traitors over the city streets.

You don't need to repeat an old lie that "sraeli army units had been printing t-shirts depicting disturbing, violent images such as dead Palestinian babies" - these T-Shirts were printed by an Arab manufacturer, and nobody knows who paid him for his services. It all can be just another PR lie of Pallywood.

 

Alexa R. (330)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 11:59 am
Paulo Rocha (7)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 11:21 am

Again, we could go back to what has been written above regarding Transjordan and Mandatory Palestine. Just as Transjordan became the country of Jordan, Mandatory Palestine would have most likely become the country of Palestine if the UN had not intervened in 1948.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Trans Jordan was part of Mandatory Palestine.

The first two state solution was that the trans Jordan Palestine Mandate goes to the Arabs and West Palestine Mandate for a Jewish homeland.

I agree with you Bob: " If someone wants to mourn a creation of Israel, he can leave Israel for 22 other Arab states, with different levels of Sharia implemented to his tastes and mourn from there in a great company, with lots of outdoor activities, like burning Israel and American flags and occasional dragging bodies of alleged traitors over the city streets. "

We're here (Israel and Israelis) and we're here to stay. We ain't going nowhere.
 

Alexa R. (330)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 12:22 pm
Bob Algeron (47)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 11:36 am

If you are unhappy about lands given "with the flick of a quill in the British Parliament", then you want to re-negotiate all 22 Arab countries, given by Brits to their personal and loyal friends. This is the purest and true colonialism in action.

Send a Green Star to Bob Algeron

Sending a Green Star is a simple way to say "Thank you"
You cannot currently send a star to Bob because you have done so within the last week.
 

Paulo R. (13)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 12:39 pm
“Trans Jordan was part of Mandatory Palestine.”

The territory was officially under the British Mandate for Palestine but had a fully autonomous governing system from Mandatory Palestine. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transjordan

“The first two state solution was that the Trans Jordan Palestine Mandate goes to the Arabs and West Palestine Mandate for a Jewish homeland.”

Why? Here is where the current problem (Israelis vs. Palestinians) begins, thanks to the UN. Now you’ve answered your previous question above. The Jews did not have a country and one was created (initiated) for them at the cost of the Palestinians being moved out of the area without a say in the matter.

“I agree with you Bob: ‘If someone wants to mourn a creation of Israel, he can leave Israel for 22 other Arab states…’”

Why should they (someone) leave? It is their home as much as it is the home of the Jews. The UN vote in 1948 could have very well have gone the other way against a Jewish state.

“We're here (Israel and Israelis) and we're here to stay. We ain't going nowhere.”

You bet! Spoken (sarcastically) like a true Jew living in Israel. This is a typical Jewish response that infuriates Palestinians, Arabs, and much of the Western World. Statements like these is what weakens the Jewish cause. Of course you (Israel) can claim this because you have the financial and military backing of the United States. You also have your “unclaimed” nuclear weapons to help ward off any potential attacks. Here is where you and Bob lose my support for the cause.
 

Alexa R. (330)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 1:00 pm
Paulo Rocha (7)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 12:39 pm

The Jews did not have a country and one was created (initiated) for them at the cost of the Palestinians being moved out of the area without a say in the matter.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No. Not true. (Read some of my other posts on this thread, explaining this point already from the perspective of Palestinians living in Israel.)
 

Alexa R. (330)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 1:07 pm
Paulo Rocha (7)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 12:39 pm

Why should they (someone) leave? It is their home as much as it is the home of the Jews. The UN vote in 1948 could have very well have gone the other way against a Jewish state.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The question is, why did Arabs living in what became Israel flee? The ones who remained in their homes actually live and prosper. So why didn't they stay. There is the one focused obvious enemy, Israel. But is that the truth? It is not my place or my purpose to discuss who belongs in that tiny region called Israel, but it is my intent and reason for risking shunning by my own community to set the record straight. The Arab world warned the Palestinians of staying with the Jews. They also warned them that they were going in to fight the Zionists and that the Palestinians should leave in order for them not to get hurt. Many Palestinians trusted these Arab leaders and left. Bad blood had existed between some groups of Arabs and Jews- enough to flame the Propaganda machines. Those who lived with Jews for a long time, were not as easily convinced and stayed home. My family members have always told us that there were cars going around telling people to stay put. The cars contained Jews. They told everyone that they will not harm them. Thus we have the situation where Jews are begging Arabs to stay and live with them and other Arabs from outside the country were telling them to flee for their lives.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?62870-Growing-up-Palestinian-in-the-Israeli-quot-Occupation-quot

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We Israelis love the ones who stay and make Israel their home; and we “agree with you Bob: ‘If someone wants to mourn a creation of Israel, he can leave [if he so chooses] Israel for 22 other Arab states…’”
 

Alexa R. (330)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 1:09 pm
Alexandra R. (299)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 1:00 pm
Paulo Rocha (7)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 12:39 pm

The Jews did not have a country and one was created (initiated) for them at the cost of the Palestinians being moved out of the area without a say in the matter.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Palestinians did not have a country either and one has not yet been created for them either ... you answered your own question: " It is their home as much as it is the home of the Jews."

 

Paulo R. (13)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 1:50 pm
“The question is, why did Arabs living in what became Israel flee? The ones who remained in their homes actually live and prosper. So why didn't they stay? There is the one focused obvious enemy, Israel. But is that the truth? We Israelis love the ones who stay and make Israel their home.”

Since 1967, the Israeli government has demolished more than 25,000 Palestinian homes in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, forcing Palestinians off their land as Israel:

. builds and expands Israeli settlements on Palestinians land;
. continues construction of the 26-foot high “separation wall;”
. increases the network of Israeli-only bypass roads;
. confiscates occupied Palestinian territory;
. surrounds and cuts off Palestinian population centers; and
. isolates, displaces, and decreases the Palestinian population.

These activities are illegal under international law and contravene several U.N. resolutions.
 

Alexa R. (330)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 3:14 pm
Paulo Rocha (7)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 1:50 pm
. continues construction of the 26-foot high “separation wall;”
. surrounds and cuts off Palestinian population centers; and
. isolates, displaces, and decreases the Palestinian population.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
• The fence is a last-resort measure which Israel has reluctantly been forced to build to protect its citizens against the sustained Palestinian terror.

• If the terror stopped, support in Israel for the fence would quickly reduce.

• Palestinian humanitarian concerns are taken into account in the building of the fence, and it has been rerouted many times.

• The fence around Jerusalem has been bought about by an intensive suicide bombing wave in the capital.

• Israel has replanted 68,000 fruit and olive trees uprooted because of the fence, in locations chosen by Palestinian farmers.

• The fence has no ideological or territorial rationale. The governing Kadima party wishes to withdraw from territory, not annex it.

• Many Israeli Jews are outside the fence, and the fence protects Arabs in Israel . The fence has nothing to do with racial discrimination or apartheid.

• Victims of terror attacks have included citizens of 19 other countries who were residing in Israel.

• As part of a peace agreement, the fence would be dismantled.
 

Alexa R. (330)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 3:20 pm
Paulo Rocha (7)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 1:50 pm

. builds and expands Israeli settlements on Palestinians land;
. confiscates occupied Palestinian territory;

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

• The conflict started 100 years ago, before Israel occupied the West Bank or built any settlements

• On several occasions Israel has offered to freeze settlements.

• In 2005, Israel destroyed all its settlements in the Gaza Strip, but this did not end the Palestinian violence.

• At Camp David in 2000 Israel proposed withdrawal of most West Bank settlements as part of a peace deal. This was rejected by the Palestinians.

• Between 1993-2000 (according to a comprehensive recent study by left-wing Israeli paper Haaretz), Israel only built one new permanent settlement.

• The increase in settler population in the last ten years has been due to the expansion of population in existing settlements.

• Despite the absence of diplomatic progress, Israel has on several occasions removed unauthorised settlements unilaterally, although this was strongly opposed by the settlers' representatives.

• The Jewish connection with Hebron is even older than the Jewish connection with Jerusalem , and goes back over 3,500 years. The Jewish community of Hebron were massacred by Arabs in 1929. Any peace agreement must recognise the depth of the Jewish religious connection to Hebron .

• To the rejectionist Palestinian groups, Tel-Aviv and Haifa are settlements – part of the “Zionist occupation”. They are not demanding the removal of post-1967 settlements, but all Jewish national presence.

• It is this attitude, not the Jewish settlements, which is the real “block” to peace.

• Israel entered the West Bank and Gaza in 1967 and reconquered East Jerusalem in a war of self-defence.

• UN Security Council Resolution 242 of 1967 obliges Israel to withdraw from territories seized in the 1967 war but within the context of a negotiated peace agreement with the Arabs and the Palestinians.

• It does not oblige Israel to withdraw from the West Bank unilaterally, and in a vacuum, without an agreement in place.

• Furthermore, the Resolution applies to “territories”, not “all” the territories. Even in the context of negotiations, Israel is not obliged to withdraw from "all" the territories captured in 1967. This choice of language was deliberate.

• UN Resolution 242 places obligations on the Arab states to recognise Israel , and commit themselves to live in peace with Israel .

• Israel 's peace agreements since 1967 fulfil the letter and spirit of UN Resolution 242 – the peace treaty with Egypt involving Israel 's withdrawal from Sinai, and the peace with Jordan .

• Israel 's proposals and positions in the Oslo process fulfilled its part of UN Resolution 242, as does Israel 's commitment to the Road Map.

• Palestinian pursuit of an unconditional right of return into Israel is completely inconsistent with UN Resolution 242.

• The major block to implementation of UN Resolution 242 remains Arab rejectionism and violence.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So as you can clearly see from the above Paulo (and Free G), your accusations against Israel are uninformed and biased.
 

Alexa R. (330)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 3:37 pm
Thanks Free G, not sure what you celebrate, but whatever it is: happy ' ...'

It's our second night of lighting candles.
 

Alexa R. (330)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 6:06 pm
Free G. (1)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 5:37 pm
Victims of Israel - from Sept. 29, 2000 to September 30, 2012. 6,620 Palestinians killed of which 1,238 were children

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I feel for the innocent children killed. Though to solely blame Israel for it, "is either being out of touch with reality, denial or intentional misrepresentation." Surely you cannot be unaware of children and civilians used as human shields by Arab soldiers?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Free G. (1)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 5:38 pm
Alexandra, you know damn well that I am just as Jewish as you.

In that case, Happy Chanukah. חג החנוכה שמח


 

Alexa R. (330)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 8:27 pm
Free G. (1)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 7:32 pm

All your questions had already been answered with back up and evidence from reputable sources in this thread.

To blame Israel for it all will not make this world a better place, nor will it safe lives.

 

Alexa R. (330)
Sunday December 9, 2012, 9:27 pm
Oops, it should read:

To blame Israel for it all will not make this world a better place, nor will it save lives.
 

Alexa R. (330)
Monday December 10, 2012, 7:18 am
And you truly believe that what you try and broker for us Israelis is a just negotiated settlement?

Your anti-Israeli bias cry out to high heavens, I'm afraid ..
 

Paulo R. (13)
Monday December 10, 2012, 12:19 pm
“Imagine holding a fundraiser for murder, destruction and military occupation. On December 06/2012, Friends of the Israeli Defense Forces (FIDF) held their annual gala in Los Angeles. Guests annually include high-ranking Israeli military and government officials. Well-known Americans attend. The event raises millions of dollars annually for Israeli militarism, belligerence, and cold-blooded murder. It’s shocking that anyone would contribute to what they should condemn. The IDF “today is one of the best armed and best financed terror organizations in the world. It’s responsible for the death of countless innocent Palestinians.”

Source: “Raising Money for Killers”, Stephen Lendman, Global Research, 12/09/2012.

Full story: http://www.globalresearch.ca/raising-money-for-killers/5314860
 

Alexa R. (330)
Monday December 10, 2012, 11:53 pm
Paulo R and Free G, in your opinion does Hamas kill innocent civilians? Does Hamas get aid?

(By focusing your criticizm on Israel only is being biased and not factual as you leave half the picture out,)
 

Paulo R. (13)
Tuesday December 11, 2012, 1:28 pm
“Why does the guerrilla fighter fight? We must come to the inevitable conclusion that the guerrilla fighter is a social reformer, that he takes up arms responding to the angry protest of the people against their oppressors, and that he fights in order to change the social system that keeps all his unarmed brothers in ignominy and misery.” Che Guevara

“In your opinion does Hamas kill innocent civilians?” Yes; but less than the Israelis up to now.

“Does Hamas get aid?” Yes; but less than the Israelis up to now.

“By focusing your criticism on Israel only you’re being biased and not factual as you leave half the picture out.” Well, Hamas has not been part of the topic up to now but we can add it.

Regardless of their actions (Hamas) it does not change the fact that the Palestinians are still the “underdog” in this conflict. I do not favor Hamas killing innocent civilians, or using civilians as a human shield. All tactics used by the Israelis in the past. Hamas has made great use of guerrilla tactics in the Gaza Strip and to a lesser degree the West Bank. It has successfully adapted these techniques over the years since its inception. Guevara’s quote above explains it all. Palestinians do not have an Army, Navy, or Air Force. How else are they supposed to fight? This conflict (misery) was not started by the Palestinians. How different things would be if the U.S. supported the Palestinian cause instead of the Israeli cause.
 

Carrie B. (318)
Tuesday December 11, 2012, 3:18 pm
Sending a Green Star is a simple way to say "Thank you"
You cannot currently send a star to Free because you have done so within the last week.
 

Thomas P. (468)
Wednesday December 12, 2012, 8:03 am
Alexandra, with all due respect, your analysis of the "disputed territories" is one sided, and I take issue with your "very basic understanding of int'l law" characterization. It's not only condescending, it's self-serving from an Israeli standpoint and plain wrong. Even Israel's own High Court of Justice terms the occupation as "belligerent occupation." You can try to justify it; your view is not shared by the int'l community,incl'g the US (at least not this administration,), or by me. That's why they are known as an "occupying power," regardless of the reason why.
 

Thomas P. (468)
Wednesday December 12, 2012, 8:09 am
Moreover Alexandra, in your post as a response to Paolo R and Free G, you ask, "...in your opinion does Hamas kill innocent civilians? Does Hamas get aid?" I'm not sure what your point is, because Israel kills innocent civilians with impunity every time they raze a building that they allege has a suspected terrorist in it along with any number of civilians. Is your point that Israel is not better than Hamas? Because if it is, one call also allege that Hamas is no worse than Israel. To be clear, I want peace there. Your arguments & Israel's overreaction tell me Israel doesn't.
 

Thomas P. (468)
Wednesday December 12, 2012, 8:20 am
Alexandra, at the end of the day, though I vehemently disagree with you, I pray that there will bean agreement there someday soon....so you and all those that in that region will be able to live in peace.
 

Jelica R. (157)
Wednesday December 12, 2012, 7:36 pm
From TomDispatch:

"Oded Na'aman, an IDF veteran and co-editor of Harsh Logic, introduces a small selection of the testimonies from Our Harsh Logic: Israeli Soldiers’ Testimonies from the Occupied Territories, 2000–2010, adapted and abridged for this site.

“It’s Mostly Punishment…”
Testimonies by Veterans of the Israeli Defense Forces From Gaza and the Occupied Territories
By Breaking the Silence"

[The testimony by Israeli veteran that follow is taken from 145 collected by the nongovernmental organization Breaking the Silence and published in Our Harsh Logic: Israeli Soldiers’ Testimonies From the Occupied Territories, 2000-2010. Those in the book represent every division in the IDF and all locations in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.]

1. House Demolition

Unit: Kfir Brigade

Location: Nablus district

Year: 2009

- During your service in the territories, what shook you up the most?

- The searches we did in Hares. They said there are sixty houses that have to be searched. I thought there must have been some information from intelligence. I tried to justify it to myself.

- You went out as a patrol?

- It was a battalion operation. They spread out over the whole village, took over the school, smashed the locks, the classrooms. One was used as the investigation room for the Shin Bet, one room for detainees, one for the soldiers to rest. We went in house by house, banging on the door at two in the morning. The family’s dying of fear, the girls are peeing in their pants with fear. We go into the house and turn everything upside down.

- What’s the procedure?

- Gather the family in a certain room, put a guard there, tell the guard to aim his gun at them, and then search the rest of the house. We got another order that everyone born after 1980... everyone between sixteen and twenty-nine, doesn’t matter who, bring them in cuffed and blindfolded. They yelled at old people, one of them had an epileptic seizure but they carried on yelling at him. Every house we went into, we brought everyone between sixteen and twenty-nine to the school. They sat tied up in the schoolyard.

- Did they tell you the purpose of all this?

- To locate weapons. But we didn’t find any weapons. They confiscated kitchen knives. There was also stealing. One guy took twenty shekels. Guys went into the houses and looked for things to steal. This was a very poor village. The guys were saying, “What a bummer, there’s nothing to steal.”

- That was said in a conversation among the soldiers?

- Yeah. They enjoyed seeing the misery, the guys were happy talking about it. There was a moment someone yelled at the soldiers. They knew he was mentally ill, but one of the soldiers decided that he’d beat him up anyway, so they smashed him. They hit him in the head with the butt of the gun, he was bleeding, then they brought him to the school along with everyone else. There were a pile of arrest orders signed by the battalion commander, ready, with one area left blank. They’d fill in that the person was detained on suspicion of disturbing the peace. They just filled in the name and the reason for arrest. There were people with plastic handcuffs that had been put on really tight. I got to speak with the people there. One of them had been brought into Israel to work for a settler and after two months the guy didn’t pay him and handed him over to the police.

- All these people came from that one village?

- Yes.

- Anything else you remember from that night?

- A small thing, but it bothered me -- one house that they just destroyed. They have a dog for weapons searches, but they didn’t bring him; they just wrecked the house. The mother watched from the side and cried. Her kids sat with her and stroked her.

- What do you mean, they just destroyed the house?

- They smashed the floors, turned over sofas, threw plants and pictures, turned over beds, smashed the closets, the tiles. There were other things -- the look on the people’s faces when you go into their house. And after all that, they were left tied up and blindfolded in the school for hours. The order came to free them at four in the afternoon. So that was more than twelve hours. There were investigators from the security services there who interrogated them one by one.

- Had there been a terrorist attack in the area?

- No. We didn’t even find any weapons. The brigade commander claimed that the Shin Bet did find some intelligence, that there were a lot of guys there who throw stones.

 

Jelica R. (157)
Wednesday December 12, 2012, 7:47 pm
Sorry for the long comment. This is one of six testimonies posted on the TomDispatch Tomgram: Oded Na'aman, Is Gaza Outside Israel?; Posted by Oded Na'aman at 5:34pm, November 25, 2012.

"Oded Na’aman is co-editor of Our Harsh Logic: Israeli Soldiers’ Testimonies from the Occupied Territories, 2000–2010 (Metropolitan Books, 2012). He is also a founder of Breaking the Silence, an Israeli organization dedicated to collecting the testimonies of Israel Defense Force soldiers, and a member of the Israeli Opposition Network. He served in the IDF as a first sergeant and crew commander in the artillery corps between 2000 and 2003 and is now working on his PhD in philosophy at Harvard University. The testimonies in this piece from Our Harsh Logic have been adapted and shortened."

 

Paulo R. (13)
Thursday December 13, 2012, 2:43 pm
Benny Morris, “His premise seems to be that: Look at America, if they didn't ethnically cleanse the native population, there wouldn't be the ‘great nation’ of America.”

I have to disagree with Morris on this one. He is mixing apples and oranges when relating the Indian/American (in the 1800s) vs. the Palestinian/Israeli issues of 1948. It was a different time in history under very different circumstances.

American Indians were spread out from Canada to Mexico (Atlantic to the Pacific) when Americans started to colonize what is today the United States. They also moved around depending on the seasons of the year and hunting/crops options. Palestinians did not. The Native Americans (tribes) did not have a formal country. Palestinians had Mandatory Palestine prior to 1948. The ratio of land to people in America in the 1800s was vastly more different than what you find in the Middle East in 1948. Religion and state has always been a joint issue for Israelis (Jews) and their existence, when it was never a joint issue for Indians or Americans. Americans and Indians have learned to coexist with each other where Arabs and Jews have not (at least not yet). Most Indians accepted the western ways and eventually became part of the US society. Native Americans still have a choice to live in reservations all over the United States.

The U.S. policy toward the Native Americans had continued to evolve after the American Revolution. George Washington and Henry Knox believed that Native Americans were equals but that their society was inferior. Epidemic disease was the overwhelming cause of the population decline of the American Indians because of their lack of immunity to new diseases brought from Europe. The current legal status of Indians in the U.S. is as followed: There are over 500 federally recognized tribal governments in the United States. These tribes possess the right to form their own governments, to enforce laws (both civil and criminal) within their lands, to tax, to establish requirements for membership, to license and regulate activities, to zone and to exclude persons from tribal territories. Limitations on tribal powers of self-government include the same limitations applicable to states.
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday January 12, 2013, 11:19 am
War is war and innocent people get killed What difference is it whether the war is today or 70 years ago and how many on each side
How many innocent people must have been killed in Hiroshima by the US you probably could not count them and the jews by germany and all the rest of the innocents around the world that died in the war It seemed to be ok then when it was a world war but not now if its between two countries Hypocritical or what I think so
 
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