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Is Israel Committing War Crimes in Gaza?


World  (tags: Human Rights, Israeli war crimes, Gaza, violence, death, crime, news, middle-east, society, terrorism, ethics )

Carrie
- 1222 days ago - haaretz.com
The data indicating that many of the casualties in Gaza are civilians raises the prospect that Israel has committed forbidden actions. There's a fine line between war and war crimes.



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Comments

David F (14)
Monday July 14, 2014, 1:31 pm
> Is Israel Committing War Crimes in Gaza?
- Did the Nazis commit crimes ?
 

David C (186)
Monday July 14, 2014, 1:56 pm
maybe, but they're certainly not acting humanely......way overboard.....time for peace
 

. (0)
Monday July 14, 2014, 3:18 pm
no! they are not. isreal never starts but if attacked they will fight and usually win. this was started by hamus. with the 3 kids that were taken and killed. and they keep targeting the isreali nuke plant. don't they realize what will happen if they hit it not to just isrealis but them too. isreal keeps using their iron shield to stop hamas bombs from getting them. they are protecting them selves. i heard today on the news there will be a temory ceasefire. this whole thing is disgusting. lesson is don't mess with isreal. leave the kids alone. isreal will kick butt to protect itself. i guess they have a right to
 

Lois Jordan (63)
Monday July 14, 2014, 4:56 pm
Carrie's comment said it all for me.....I agree completely.
Now, to answer the question....with a question----Does a zebra have stripes?
 

Kathleen M (231)
Monday July 14, 2014, 6:10 pm
Sadly noted. Thanks for making the article available, Carrie. IMHO, Israeli govts have been appropriating land and resources that rightfully belong to the Palestinian people for decades. That wall of theirs has separated families from one another, workers from employment and farmers from land they've tended for decades, if not centuries. Hundreds of egregious illegal settlements, as well as the thuggish actions of right wing extremists populating said settlements are other possibly criminal actions. Let's not discount the isolation of towns, villages, and the impossibility of establishing a contiguous Palestinian state under all these circumstances, as well as the daily humiliations visited upon people due to roadblocks, checkpoints, curfews, and the miserable poverty resulting from the embargo...
And that's before violent destruction of homes and infrastructure, detention (kidnapping?) of hundreds of people, murder in one form or another, via airstrikes, invasions...no doubt i've forgotten something, but think i've presented a pretty clear picture of what's been going down in this troubled, benighted land.
War crimes? Perhaps. But Israeli agression seems to go well beyond any notion of self-defense, or even a legitimate need to "kick butt."
 

Sam H (410)
Monday July 14, 2014, 7:43 pm
It’s really a valid question if we’re still getting our news from Dian Sawyer. But for those of us who get their news from more reliable sources, that questions has already been answered by 186 dead Palestinians and 1,390 injured!
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 14, 2014, 7:43 pm
Well of course+that Nazi goon should be arrested.
 

Elle B (84)
Monday July 14, 2014, 7:55 pm
Heartbreaking. . .

"Warfare cannot be humanized." ― Albert Einstein

"Wars are poor chisels for carving out peaceful tomorrows." ―Martin Luther King, Jr.

"Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind." ―John F. Kennedy
 

Past Member (0)
Monday July 14, 2014, 9:58 pm
Hamas is surely commited war crimes in Gaza. Using civilians as human shields, bombing Israel from populated areas, preventing civilians from exiting the war zone under Israeli request - these are Hamas' trademark for the disgust they have for human lives.

Not even mentioning here NO bomb shelters built by Hamas in Gaza for general population, at a time when preparing and executing bombing of Israel knowing full well that the response will be coming. If Hamas plays its wishes till full, we will have 100,000 dead in Gaza like we see it in Syria.

Palestinian Arabs need to demilitarize and moderate. Easier said, than done, but now their cause was hajacked by exremists and terrorists.


 

Sam H (410)
Monday July 14, 2014, 10:06 pm
You're just shameless, Bob! You impose an embargo on Gaza and you blame them for not building bomb shelters when they can't even put food on the table? And since Israel knew that, why did it bomb them if it's that concerned about the wellbeing if the Palestinians?
 

Miriam E (18)
Tuesday July 15, 2014, 12:19 am
LIVE UPDATES: Israel Accepts Egyptian Cease-Fire Proposal.
Hamas announces it rejects the cease-fire without truce.
http://www.care2.com/news/member/248023780/3788274
 

Stan B (123)
Tuesday July 15, 2014, 1:07 am
Great quote from Netanyahu.. " Israel uses its rockets to protect its people. Hamas uses its people to protect its rockets."
Hamas is guilty of war crimes against both Israelis and Palestinians.

Isn't it amazing that thousands of rockets can be smuggled into Gaza yet idiots on Care 2 believe there isn't enough food and medicines there?
 

Sam H (410)
Tuesday July 15, 2014, 1:29 am
Israel uses our money and technology to kill Palestinians. Sooner or later that's gotta stop. Then you have the demographic bomb to contend with. So you better start being nice to the Palestinians in preparation for when the spigot will get shut off.
 

Sam H (410)
Tuesday July 15, 2014, 2:02 am


The Pretext for Bombing Gaza

 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday July 15, 2014, 4:48 am
So, nu, Egypt proposes a ceasefire. ISRAEL accepts. HAMAS balks and fires MORE rockets into Israel.
And if Israel retaliates ~ they're the bad guys???

Sam, don't be a fool!! Arab terrorists have more money than you, me, G*d, and the Vatican. DUH!! The poor Gazans don't have food to eat? Then how how can they afford bombs and rockets?
It simply speaks to the fact that none of this has anything whatsoever to do with the well-being of the true Palestinian people, but rather to the jihadists' primary goal.
"So we in Hamas will continue our fighting until we achieve our goals," he said.*
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday July 15, 2014, 9:03 am
Someday people will learn to actually read reliable sources of information, instead of the Hamas sponsored propaganda. Please explain WHY Hamas REFUSED to join the cease fire? Anybody? Is this the action of a poor downtrodden people, or the action of a terrorist group who has no regard for human life?
Why is it that so many liberals are so ready to get on the side of the "underdog", instead of actually researching and assessing a situation. The Palestinians have had decades to build their economy, educate their people, and make something of themselves. Some of them have. But the majority have instead invested in terrorism. They refuse to homor cease fires. They refuse to negotiate unless ALL their ridiculous demands are met. This is a recipe for unrest, and is exactly what the Foreign funders from Iran, Saudi Arabia and Syria want. They could care less about the Palestinians, all they want is destruction - destruction of Israel.
 

Miriam E (18)
Tuesday July 15, 2014, 9:51 am
Thanks Barbara and Roberto for raising important questions and points.
It does not look like Hamas aims for the benefits of its people.
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday July 15, 2014, 9:59 am
WHY do the BIG, BAD BULLIES accept a ceasefire to aggressions THEY didn't start...and the POOR, DOWNTRODDEN, STARVING, and DYING Palestinians reject the ceasefire and CONTINUE to (futilely and childishly) bomb Israel????

Oh, that's right! Hamas doesn't represent the Palestinians or give a damn about them because this has never been about the Palestinian people.
Good G*d, people, WAKE UP and open your eyes!
 

Lona G (85)
Tuesday July 15, 2014, 10:35 am
This is a war and without doubt both sides are committing war crimes. But any one can see that things are skewered if the death toll on Israeli side is 0 and that on Palestinian side is more than 170, many of which are civilians, men, women and children. The amount of destruction and number of wounded is equally disproportionate. It is very hard to understand that 170 deaths could simply be called retaliation. Retaliation of what? Most of the missiles launched by Hamas are cut short by Israel's iron dome and people are safe in the shelters. Mind you, I wouldn't like to be in the shoes of any Israeli, it must be truly horrifying having to live your life in fear. But the people of Gaza have nowhere to go and people are dying and getting hurt around them on a daily basis while their homes are getting destroyed. Israel is by far the stronger and should therefore also be the wiser and both parties need to stop.
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday July 15, 2014, 10:53 am
Lona, then don't you think Hamas should have done a little more thinking and a little more preparing before they started lobbing rockets out of apartment houses? That land in Gaza because Hamas can't figure out how to aim rockets?? Twice as many Hamas rockets have landed in Gaza than Israeli.

Maybe their money ~ which isn't Palestinian money ~ would have been better spent *ON* the Palestinian people instead of *defending* them?? Defending the Palestinian people!!??!! Yeah, and let me tell you about this bridge I'm selling...............LOLOL!!
 

Miriam E (18)
Tuesday July 15, 2014, 11:07 am
I am sad to say that an Israeli civilian got killed today from a Palestinian mortar shell.
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday July 15, 2014, 11:26 am
Miriam, you won't find any sympathy here. :-{
 

Birgit W (160)
Tuesday July 15, 2014, 11:43 am
Lona Goudswaard says it all.
Peace to all the people in Israel and Palestine. Hate and revenge will never help us.
 

Lona G (85)
Tuesday July 15, 2014, 12:08 pm
Barbara, I'm trying very hard to see both sides in equal measure. I had no idea that Hamas was responsible for killing its own people with badly launched rockets. And just as powerful as the Israeli's too! I'm very happy for you that you get all this wonderfully impartial yet detailed news about half of the Hamas' rockets falling in Gaza. I'm afraid the news covering of the Dutch reporters on the ground near Gaza leaves something to be desired, they haven't mentioned that yet. If they do mention it, perhaps then I will also have something to laugh about. LOL indeed.

And I'm very sorry that an Israeli civilian got killed today. It shouldn't have happened. But I'm also sad that you can't feel sorry for those dozens and dozens of women and children in Gaza who got killed.
 

Ruth R (250)
Tuesday July 15, 2014, 3:08 pm
MB Chief Calls for "Holy Jihad" Against Israel By IPT News o Oct 11, 2012
World (tags: freedoms, Human Rights, Civil Liberties, israel, middle-east, world )
Ruth - 39 minutes ago - investigativeproject.org
' after Morsi's election, Badie said Muslims have a duty "to purify it from the hands of usurpers and cleanse Palestine from the clutches of the Occupation - that is an individual duty on all Muslims. They must wage Jihad with their money and lives..'
hot!!!

MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD (MB) Main Office - London, England Www.DiscoverTheNetwork.Org
World (tags: Human Rights, freedoms, middle-east, usa, world, government, United Nations, terrorism )
Ruth - 57 minutes ago - discoverthenetworks.org
' Founded in 1928 by the Egyptian schoolteacher/activist Hasan al-Banna (a devout admirer of Adolf Hitler and the Nazis), the Muslim Brotherhood (MB) -- a Sunni entity -- is one of the oldest, largest and most influential Islamist organizations...'

THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD'S
World (tags: Human Rights, freedoms, Civil Liberties, middle-east )
Ruth - 1 hour ago - discoverthenetworks.org
'In 1982 the Muslim Brotherhood, which Islam expert Robert Spencer has called "the parent organization of Hamas and al Qaeda," adopted a strategic plan known as "The Global Project for Palestine" which laid the groundwork for a terrorist' Keep your peace

THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD'S "GENERAL STRATEGIC GOAL" FOR NORTH AMERICA
World (tags: freedoms, Human Rights, middle-east, government, world, usa )
Ruth - 1 hour ago - discoverthenetworks.org
'.make "a shift from the collision mentality to the absorption mentality," meaning that they should abandon any tactics involving defiance or confrontation, and seek instead to implant into the larger society a host of seemingly benign Islamic groups...'

Zawahiri Rebukes Muslim Brotherhood for Trusting Democracy By BILL ROGGIO August 3, 2013 12:32 PM
World (tags: Human Rights, freedoms, middle-east )
Ruth - 1 hour ago - longwarjournal.org
"Although both groups seek to impose sharia and establish a caliphate, the Brotherhood has attempted to attain its goal through the political process, but al Qaeda has said this can be done only by waging jihad, or holy war." Please keep your peace.
 

David F (14)
Tuesday July 15, 2014, 3:08 pm
... cannot currently send a star to Carrie ...
> Two wrongs don't make a right,
and even less so if the second is continued for decades ...
 

Sam H (410)
Tuesday July 15, 2014, 3:31 pm
Let's give Hamas some credit. For about 40 years (between 1948 and 1978), Hamas didn't fire a single rocket into Israel.
 

Sam H (410)
Tuesday July 15, 2014, 3:33 pm
And neither did Hezbollah. As a mater of fact, Hezbollah didn't fire any rockets into Israel for even a longer period.
 

Sam H (410)
Tuesday July 15, 2014, 5:32 pm
It’s all the fault of the medical establishment and the pharmaceutical industry. They conditioned the population to accept treating the symptoms rather than addressing the real cause of the illness.

The same rationale carries over into our political life. We treat terrorism, but not the real cause behind it.
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Tuesday July 15, 2014, 7:57 pm
Thanks Carrie! :)

There is a major oversight in the article. It talks about how the harm to civilians must be "proportionate", but proportionality alone does not actually means anything. We need a "constant of proportionality" and a way of translating between military gain and harm to civilians in order to set up a standard of measure. The real problem I see is that the harm to civilian must be proportional, but that "constant of proportionality" is actually a function of many other factors, including the extent to which in-kind reprisals are appropriate, the practicality of avoiding civilian casualties, and the military necessity of the operation at both strategic and tactical levels. Normally, we look at historical cases and assume that the "constant of proportionality" is typical and similar to what it was in the past, but the circumstances of this conflict are very abnormal so that assumption fails. To really understand the legal issues, we need to look a lot closer.

That said, we must all, Israelis included, be vigilant against rationalizations of any kind of crime, and especially war-crimes as those can easily escalate. I hope the IDF remains vigilant as it has been in the past, makes prevention of such incidents a major organizational priority, and take initiatives that I have described elsewhere (and would repeat here if asked) towards ensuring that they do not occur.

Hi Sam :)

Gaza actually does have bomb-shelters, lots of them. The smuggling-tunnels could work very well as shelters, but civilians don't get access to them. So could the hardened launching-sites, but those are filled with missiles rather than people. Hamas, the Palestinian authority in Gaza, definitely has the means to protect their civilians, but if they did, then it wouldn't get those casualty-numbers or photos that convince Western liberals to press Israel to stop its attacks, and then Hamas would be destroyed. I hope you realize that you personally are actually a part of Hamas' defensive strategy and play a real role in prolonging the violence. I think the same of most "peace activists" who think they understand this conflict, and consider them indirectly responsible for a few thousand deaths in the region. Also, Hamas and Hezbollah, as organizations, didn't exist until the 1980s, but there were definitely attacks against Israel from the factions from which they grew.
 

Sam H (410)
Tuesday July 15, 2014, 11:17 pm
Stephen, as I said elsewhere, Hamas didn’t fire a single rocket into Israel for almost 40 years (1948-1987)—and neither did Hezbollah, for that matter, for even a longer period of time.

Do you see how ridiculous your statement that Gazans have bomb shelters is? You disproved your own assertion in the same sentence.

I don’t think it’s in the interest of rightwing Israelis to see Hamas destroyed. You probably need to go back and review Sharon’s role in aiding/founding Hamas to curb Fatah’s influence within the Palestinian community. You got what you wanted. Besides, Hamas gave Netanyahu the excuse he needed to scuttle the peace process. Imagine how hard life would have been for Netanyahu had there been no Hamas. Hamas, with all its rockets, is less of a threat to Netanyahu than peace.

Well, if peace activists are indirectly responsible for prolonging the conflict, then Zionist apologists are directly responsible for starting it. They are the ones with blood on their hands. Your role in justifying torture by trying to redefine it and by applauding war crimes committed by Israel leaves you no place to hide. You already declared yourself a sympathizer with and a defender of a terrorist state which has total disregard to international law, human life and anything else humans consider decent.

It’s really sad that you chose to lock yourself in this very unenviable, immoral position.
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 16, 2014, 6:24 am
Lona, I grieve for every Israeli and innocent Palestinian life lost. Israel and Palestine could easily live side by side in mutual respect and comradeship, but terrorists have created an artificial situation in an effort to try and blind the world to their artifices and true goals.
Carrie, propaganda, by definition, cannot be true. Everything I've said is factual and can very easily be verified. The articles you've been posting simply ask questions and make implications, leading you to the desired conclusions without a shred of fact, statistics, or documentation.
You believe them because you WANT to believe them. You MUST. You HAVE to because *that's what everybody else is saying*, right??

Sam, Hezbollah didn't exist until 1982, Hamas not until 1987. Arab terrorist factions have existed back into antiquity.
Too bad you hate the pharmaceutical industry. They make medications that control delusional thinking.

Stephen is quite correct ~ there are hundreds of underground tunnels (except those discovered by Egypt and destroyed). All the animal activists here should remember how the Palestinians smuggled endangered animals through the tunnels to be kept in sidewalk cages for entertainment on their busy city streets.
It would seem to me that those tunnels would serve well as bomb shelters ~ ESPECIALLY since the Israelis humanely and graciously give 8 hour notifications before bombing Hamas facilities which unfortunately tend to be located in residential neighborhoods and apartment complexes.
 

Chaz Berlusconi (89)
Wednesday July 16, 2014, 8:02 am
I am sure there would be crimes on both sides of the border... war is unfair and despicable..
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Wednesday July 16, 2014, 5:59 pm
Hi Sam :)

My comment about the bomb-shelters wasn't that Gazans have access to them. They don't. My point was that your idea that they don't have the means to produce shelters as a result of trade-restrictions is, well, crazy. They have the means to do so many times over, as is demonstrated by the construction of physical infrastructure which could serve as such shelters. The lack of shelter is a matter of their leaders' choices, not practical limitations, and obviously not something imposed by Israel as you claimed earlier, unless you believe the conspiracy-nuts who think that Israel actually runs Hamas.

A while back you expressed an interest in understanding both sides of the conflict and the concerns of all involved, rather than being completely caught up in the propaganda of one. The fourth paragraph of your latest comment suggests you have a long way to go before breaking away from pure propaganda. I'll be waiting when you do.
 

jess b (26)
Wednesday July 16, 2014, 11:39 pm
VIDEO: The Gaza Bombardment - What You're Not Being Told
 

Sam H (410)
Thursday July 17, 2014, 2:10 pm
Thanks Carrie!

Stephen has the habit of accusing others of what he's doing. And that’s not the worst of it, for he considers it a good habit.
 

Sam H (410)
Thursday July 17, 2014, 2:52 pm
Stephen,

“A while back” you said you were trying to shed the indoctrination you were subjected to growing up. I don’t underestimate that task, but you’re not even trying. I hope the damage is not for life.

In all our exchanges you never acknowledged the crimes committed by Israel. When presented with evidence, you called Israel's actions mistakes and blamed them on “inexperienced” members of the IDF.

In the meantime, there’s a whole population that’s being wiped out and you don’t even acknowledge Israel’s role in it.

Hamas can be as evil as can be, but how do you explain Israel’s crimes against the Palestinians before Hamas even existed?

Which is worse Hamas or Irgun?

Present-day Israelis are the beneficiaries of what Irgun and other Zionist organizations were able to achieve through terror. So why is one holier than the other?

The problem is that JUST peace is not high on your list.
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday July 17, 2014, 4:47 pm
Not to be callous, but 200 + people is hardly wiping out a population of 1.657 million ~ and they wouldn't have died if Hamas had not struck the first blow, refused a ceasefire, and continued to involve civilians in military actions. And you can amend that to *continues....*

Perhaps a JUST peace could be very easily attained through open negotiation. Israel's April, 2011 peace proposal gave the Palestinians everything they want and far more, including financial, industrial, educational, medical, technological assistance. Oh, but the extremists have refused to negotiate every single time; Israel is a non-entity in their minds (that's rich given the current circumstances). No peace agreement is necessary ~ simply destroy Israel and if Palestinians die it's collateral damage.

Don't be judgemental ~ you are not in Stephen's mind.

Now Carrie speaks of propaganda yet again.

*the spreading of ideas, or rumours, usually false, for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person*
Facts cannot be false, therefore facts cannot be propaganda.
Ideas and rumours don't require an open mind or logic. One simply believes to be true what someone tells them they should believe is true.
 

jess b (26)
Thursday July 17, 2014, 4:56 pm
I certainly know, which callous, condescending statements not to read. Some, do think they stand on moral high ground..
 

Sam H (410)
Thursday July 17, 2014, 5:21 pm
This woman is something else, Jess.

I’m wondering how many Israelis this woman is willing to sacrifice if we apply her callous math to the Israeli population!

I hope Hamas doesn’t get hold of “Barbara’s Formula”!

That’s just the kind of respect for human life we always get from the Israeli side!
 

jess b (26)
Thursday July 17, 2014, 5:50 pm
Thank you for posting this. Shameful.
VIDEO: The Gaza Bombardment - What You're Not Being Told
 

jess b (26)
Thursday July 17, 2014, 6:07 pm
http://www.wat.tv/video/effets-phosphore-blanc-the-2vq17_2vpyt_.html
 

Sam H (410)
Thursday July 17, 2014, 6:27 pm
Do you suspect Care2 is already infiltrated by Israeli warmongers?
 

Sam H (410)
Thursday July 17, 2014, 6:32 pm


Have you seen this one:http://www.care2.com/news/member/223806899/3789025
 

Carrie B (306)
Thursday July 17, 2014, 6:39 pm
"As of 2011:
In 1880 there were about 0.5 million Indigenous Palestinians. Of the 25,000 Jews in Palestine half were immigrants (see: http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story559.html and http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm ). Palestinian casualties of war violence total about 80,000 since 1948 and about 100,000 since 1936 (see “Palestinian casualties of war”. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_casualties_of_war ).

However one must also consider avoidable Palestinian deaths from war-, expulsion- and occupation-imposed deprivation that now total about 1.9 million since 1948.


The Occupied Palestinian avoidable deaths since 1950 are estimated from UN Population Division data (2002 revision) at 677,000 and for all of Palestine at 0.677 million x 5.7 million (all Palestinians still within Palestine)/4.1 million (Occupied Palestinians) = 940,000. However we must also include Palestinians outside Palestine and forbidden to return (roughly 2 times those within Palestine) and thus the estimate of post-1950 Palestinian avoidable deaths from imposed deprivation = 0.94 million x 2 = 1.88 million = 1.9 million.

Palestinian refugees total about 7 million of whom about 5 million are registered with the UN (see:http://www.unrwa.org/etemplate.php?id=1029 ).
This has been a Palestinian Genocide as defined by Article 2 of the UN Genocide Convention: "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group".

According to the Israeli Foreign Ministry: “From 1920 through 1999, a total of 2,500 residents of Mandatory Palestine and, since 1948, the State of Israel fell victims to hostile enemy action; in most cases, terrorist attacks” (see: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+before+2000/ ) and “1,218 people have been killed by Palestinian violence and terrorism since September 2000” (see: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Victims+of+Palestinian+Violence+and+Terrorism+sinc.htm ).

The race-based, racist Zionist-run Apartheid State of Israel is a democracy by genocide. Of about 12 million Palestinians only the adults of 1.6 million Palestinian Israelis (21% of the Israeli population) can vote for the government ruling all of Palestine plus part of Lebanon and a near-completely ethnically cleansed part of Syria, albeit as third class citizens. 1.6 million Occupied Palestinians are abusively confined to the Gaza Concentration Camp and 2.7 million Occupied Palestinians live under highly abusive military rule in West Bank Bantustans. About 6 million Palestinians are forbidden to even live in Palestine. There are 5.9 million Jewish Israelis and 0.3 million non-Jewish and non-Arab Israelis.

Since 1936, the ongoing Palestinian Genocide has involved about 2.0 million war- and occupation-related Palestinian deaths, 0.1 million Palestinians killed violently (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_casualties_of_war ) , 1.9 million avoidable Palestinian deaths from war- , occupation- and expulsion-imposed deprivation, 7 million refugees. 3,000 Palestinian infants are passively murdered by Apartheid Israel each year, and 0.8 million Palestinian children are abusively confined to the Gaza Concentration Camp for the "crime" of being Indigenous Palestinians."
 

Sam H (410)
Thursday July 17, 2014, 6:45 pm
Carrie, Maybe you wanna try the Diane Sawyer approach: Change Palestinian to Israeli.
 

Carrie B (306)
Thursday July 17, 2014, 7:43 pm
"Article 2 of the UN Genocide Convention (see: http://www.edwebproject.org/sideshow/genocide/convention.html ) states:

“In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: a) Killing members of the group; b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group”.

Using the latest available UN Agency data we can systematically analyze these UN Genocide Convention points thus.

“Intent to destroy in whole or in part" - sustained (and frequently asserted) intent over about 150 years of the Zionist colonial project; 0.75 million Palestinian refugees in 1948; currently 7 million Palestinian refugees, and 4.2 million Palestinian refugees registered with the UN in the Middle East; over 40 years of illegal Israeli Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza; 0.1 million 1948-2011 violent Palestinian deaths, post-1967 excess deaths 0.3 million; post-1967 under-5 infant deaths 0.2 million; 3,600 under-5 year old Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT) infants die avoidably EACH YEAR in the OPT "Prison" due to Apartheid Israeli war crimes.

a) Killing - about 5100,000 Palestinians killed since 1948; post-1967 excess deaths 0.3 million; post-1967 under-5 infant deaths 0.2 million; 3,600 under-5 year old Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT) infants die avoidably EACH YEAR in the OPT "Prison" due to Israeli ignoring of the Geneva Convention; 254 OPT Palestinians killed by the Israeli military in the LAST 2 MONTHS OF 2008 ALONE, 301 killed thus last year (latest UNRWA data; see above).

b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm - see (a) and the shocking UNICEF reports of the appalling conditions psychologically scarring OPT children: http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/oPt.html .

(c) Conditions to cause destruction in whole or in part - see (a) and (b); Professor Noam Chomsky describes the OPT as a highly abusive "Prison"; others use the valid term "Concentration Camp" and make parallels with the Warsaw Ghetto; one has to turn to US-guarded Vietnamese hamlets and the Nazi era atrocities to see routine, horrendously violent and deadly military policing of civilian concentration camps.

(d) Measures intended to prevent births - see (a), (b), and (c) above; dozens of pregnant women dying at road blocks; other killing of pregnant Palestinian women; huge infant mortality in the OPT with the Occupier in gross violation of the Geneva Convention.

(e) Forcible transferring of children – irreversible transferring by killing of children - 0.2 million post-invasion infant deaths; 27 OPT children violently killed in the LAST WEEK ALONE; mass imprisonment of 2 million OPT children; hundreds of Palestinian children in abusive Israeli high-security prisons in Israel; forcible separation of families by racist Israeli Apartheid Laws, marriage laws and immigration laws."
 

Carrie B (306)
Thursday July 17, 2014, 7:49 pm
"This site is also inspired by the words of outstanding Jewish American scholar Professor Jared Diamond who in his best-selling book "Collapse” (Prologue, p10, Penguin edition) enunciated the "moral principle, namely that it is morally wrong for one people to dispossess, subjugate, or exterminate another people" – an injunction grossly violated by racist Zionist (RZ)-run Apartheid Israel and its racist, genocide-committing and genocide-ignoring US Alliance backers.

As perceived by UK writer Alan Hart in his recent book “Zionism: the Real Enemy of the Jews. Volume 1. The False Messiah"” (Clarity Press), racist Zionism represents an immense threat not just to the Arab and Muslim World but also to decent, anti-racist, humanitarian Jews throughout the World (see:
http://www.claritypress.com/Hart-I.html ).

The Palestinian Genocide is part of the so-called US Alliance War on Terror that in horrible reality is a cowardly, racist US Alliance and racist Zionist War on Women and Children and a War on Palestinian, Iraqi, Lebanese, Syrian, Somali, Iraqi, Iranian, Afghan, Pakistani, Arab, Muslim, Asian and non-European Women and Children.

As of mid-2009, in the Occupied Palestinian, Iraqi and Afghan Territories post-invasion non-violent excess deaths total 0.3 million, 1.0 million and 3.2 million, respectively; post-invasion violent deaths total about 11,000, 1.3 million and up to 4 million, respectively; post-invasion violent plus non-violent excess deaths total 0.3 million, 2.3 million and 3-7 million, respectively; post-invasion under-5 infant deaths total 0.2 million, 0.6 million and 2.3 million, respectively; and refugees total 7 million, 5-6 million and 3-4 million, respectively (plus a further 2.5 million Pashtun refugees in NW Pakistan). This constitutes a Palestinian, Iraqi and Afghan Genocide as defined by Article 2 of the UN Genocide Convention; and egregious war crimes due in part to Occupier war criminal non-supply of life-sustaining food and medical requisites demanded unequivocally by Articles 55 and 56 of the Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War – thus the Gaza Concentration Camp has been under US-backed Israeli blockade for 2 years and according to WHO the “total annual per capita medical expenditure” permitted by the Occupiers in Iraq and Occupied Afghanistan is US$124 and US$29, respectively, as compared to US$6,714 for the US.”
 

Carrie B (306)
Thursday July 17, 2014, 7:54 pm
tHE ABOVE ARE EXCERPTS FROM: PALESTINIAN GENOCIDE
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Thursday July 17, 2014, 9:31 pm
Hi Sam :)

What do you think it means, exactly, for a country to have committed crimes? A nation does not commit crimes. People do, or, depending on the type of law in question, military units do. Do you think it has to be an order from the top of the top of the government, carried down through the ranks, to violate the terms of a treaty without mitigating circumstances allowed for in that treaty? Do you have some other definition?

Here's what I think constitutes a crime committed by a nation: It's when people from it commit crimes and, as a matter of policy, its people accept and support those. As a rule, Israel does not openly and blatantly do this, not as is normal for the bulk of the Middle East. That said, I do believe that the IDF, under the democratically elected Israeli government whose laws and edicts the nation of Israel does, as a matter of policy, follow, could do better to prevent or detect war-crimes. Are the organizational problems of the IDF which can drive criminal acts and leave it blind to crimes a failure of due diligence, a "turning of a blind eye"? I don't know. They might be, and those failures might constitute crimes by the nation. There are extensive practical problems in what one would imagine to be solutions, but we are talking about professionals who may have standard solutions to the hard problems which they are just not implementing. Only a real flag-officer, an appropriate professional, after extensive study of the problem, might be able to tell. Have you asked any, or checked sources that have? I tend to go with the recent speech by a British general to the U.N., or that of a Canadian naval officer after the Mavi Marmara incident, where they praised Israel's diligence in minimizing harm to civilians as going well beyond the standard, but I wouldn't ignore a real argument for a standard of due diligence beyond what the IDF does.

Now, for many of the claimed crimes, the reason I don't "acknowledge Israel's crimes" is that I don't actually believe it to be guilty of those. Socioeconomic inequality does not necessarily imply victimhood or injustice. Much of the dispute is over who is responsible for what. Are Israelis or Palestinians responsible for the current Palestinian suffering? Why would you presume that a position different from yours, that the Palestinians are responsible, as a community, for the bulk of their own suffering, is so unreasonable that it must arise from indoctrination? I think your position on the matter is wrong, but not necessarily unreasonable because I do consider both sides' concerns and multiple narratives.

You're right about one thing, though:, I suspect that "just peace" as you call it is not high on my list. I believe there should be justice, but I get the impression that you have a very different concept of "justice" from mine. (Both are identity-blind, but still fundamentally different, with yours seeming to effectively demand equality of results while mine only demands only equality of opportunity.)

About which is worse, Hamas or Irgun, and the current moral difference, let's take a look:
Both did their best to attack the other side's civilians.
Both resisted the primary force of their own nations, though Irgun was effectively absorbed into Hagana with its political leaders and those who ordered its crimes removed from decision-making authority.
Hamas regularly sacrifices civilians on its own side for political benefit. Irgun did not.

And for current moral authority:
Hagana, which became the core of the IDF, destroyed Irgun and ended its crimes.
Palestinians have not popularly destroyed Hamas. Instead, they elected it.

Irgun was two generations back. Hamas is current. Unless you're about to blame current Germans and Germany for the crimes of the Nazis, I don't even see how Irgun is supposed to be relevant.
 

Carrie B (306)
Thursday July 17, 2014, 10:13 pm
Stephen, where exactly does the building of new Israeli settlements on Palestinian land, the blockade of Gaza, the
"fence which prevents many Palestinians from going to former jobs, IDF patrolling and routinely harassing citizens of Gaza ~ fit into your "equality of opportunity"?
 

jess b (26)
Friday July 18, 2014, 8:36 am
TAKE ACTION: Attend one of the protests around the world demanding an end to the assault on Gaza and the mass arrest raids and killings of Palestinians in the West Bank, Jerusalem and Occupied Palestine ’48.

Obama, White House 202-456-1111
john Kerry Secretary of State 202-647-4000
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Friday July 18, 2014, 9:07 pm
Hi Carrie :)

The fence and patrols and the harassment figure in differently, and they fit in differently in terms of opportunities sought as individuals and opportunities sought as communities. The settlements are also another story.

As a community, Palestinians have the option to lay down arms and abide by the traditional rules regarding conquered peoples, to which Israel would respond by abiding by the same, and that prediction is as certain as such things can be. This is what normally occurs after one side is defeated in war throughout mot of the world. (The primary exceptions to this are places where no empire ever spread and former Caliphate-territory.) They would be allowed through the fence to the extent that it is normal for non-citizens of a country to gain access to it, most likely in reciprocity for Israeli access to the Gaza Strip and West Bank, and Israel wouldn't waste the resources spent on suppressing violence from the West Bank and Gaza Strip. They choose, as a community, not to use that opportunity, so they do not see the results of doing so.

On the individual level, of course, a typical Palestinian cannot stop Hamas, IJP or other such groups from continuing attacks, and lacks the opportunity, as an individual interacting with Israel, to see the results of a laying down of arms. It is unjust, and the criminally responsible party is the one that does not engage in the normal, reasonable, response to the situation with which it is presented. I think that is a major point of our disagreement, but I don't ant to put words in your mouth: Do you believe the response of the Palestinian militias, refusing to abide by the victors' tradition of conquest (the post-imperial tradition as opposed to the post-Caliphate tradition) and instead rebelling endlessly against a superior force regardless of the totally predictable cost to their people, to be reasonable?

Harassment is, by definition, unjust. The trouble is that it is very, very difficult to identify individual cases of it because there are legitimate security-concerns and reasonable reactions to that can lead to the same behaviour as genuine harassment, depending on the context which the victims of such behaviour may not appreciate or of which they may genuinely be unaware. It stinks, but there you have it: The harassment is absolutely wrong, and the law against it is almost completely unenforceable. IDF soldiers actually engaging in criminal harassment are, well, criminals, but the community which fails to police them may not be criminally responsible for their acts because they face a serious practical problem for such enforcement imposed upon them by criminal actions of Palestinian militias. I'm obviously not going to blame Palestinian militias for criminal harassment by IDF soldiers, but do they play a serious part in the communal failure to police them, in direct violation of heir duties to their people whom they supposedly exist to protect.

The settlements are another story: I actually believe they play a positive role in providing similar opportunities to Palestinians and Israelis: Despite the fence, as of 2012, there were 63,000 Palestinians working in Israel. Why should the reverse opportunity, for Israelis to work in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, not be permitted? There are large numbers of Israeli citizens who identify as Palestinian, ad they congregate like any other ethnic group into enclaves. Why should there not be enclaves of ethnic Israelis living in the West Bank or Gaza Strip? They provide a large part of the Palestinian economy. Why should Palestinian communities not have access to substantial capital inflows by normal foreign investment? More to the point, Israelis have a successful country in large part because they have multiple cultures and ethnic groups involved in their civic discourse. If they are to achieve statehood, why should Palestinians be denied the same vital elements of a successful country? There are obviously problems of violent settlers (a small minority, but as all violent minorities, disproportionately troubling), but on the whole, as far as equality of opportunity goes, settlements fit in very well.
 

Carrie B (306)
Friday July 18, 2014, 9:48 pm
Never mind Stephen ~ you said it all when you referred to the Palestinians as "conquered peoples". There was no conquering involved. It was world approved theft ~ pure and simple.

Israel is committing genocide and the world knows it and we will all suffer for standing by and watching it happen. May God forgive us because Palestine won't!
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 19, 2014, 6:25 am
You seriously need to get over the concept that this conflict has anything to do with the Palestinian people.

It has to do with Hamas ~ and the greater jihad.

Why didn't Hamas honor a ceasefire?
Why doesn't Hamas fight out in the open?
Why is there no concern in Hamas for the Palestinian people?

How many HAMAS have been killed ~ as opposed to Palestinian civilians??????????????
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 19, 2014, 6:30 am
If you want to consider killing innocent bystanders in self-defense from an aggressor who's not concerned about the people murder, then the more accurate term would be fratricide, not genocide.
 

Carrie B (306)
Saturday July 19, 2014, 10:50 am
Barbara, please tell me all about Hamas in 1948.
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday July 19, 2014, 3:20 pm
Carrie, your assertion is that Israelis have no right to the land of Israel because they're a bunch of settlers and invaders who stole the land. You forget that Israelis are a people, not a religion, and that their land was taken by force repeatedly, most notably by the Romans and much later, the Arabians. They're German, Austrian, Polish, Russian, etc.......because they were expelled by invaders in the Diaspora.
Ironically, the only occupants of the remote Roman district of Palestinae were Jews and a few Christians. It was only when the Arabian Umayyad Caliphate conquered and settled vast areas that the area became *Arabicized. (Like it or die).
So by your reasoning, although Israelites occupied the land and were forced out, they can't return to their homeland.
By my reasoning, true Palestinians have every right to Israel, as do Arabicized Palestinians who want to live in freedom. In fact, there is NO ONE who isn't welcomed in Israel.
You want Israel to leave..and go where?
Every Italian, German, Mexican, Irish, Spaniard, Pole, etc......should immediately leave the U.S. And Australia. Arabs must immediately leave conquered areas of the Levant, Central Asia, North Africa, Spain, Sicily.... Everyone who has ever arrived in another country as a *settler* must leave.
So much for, *Give me your huddled masses..*
One last question, don't you find it rather strange that al-Fatah and the West Bank Palestinians have so notably stayed out of the fracas?? With Gaza they could achieve the perfect military pincer manuever thus doubling the effects. Why do you think that could be?
 

Sam H (410)
Saturday July 19, 2014, 3:50 pm
Those interested in the Jewish and Palestinian connection to the Holy Land will do well to consult the works of Shlomo Sand and Eran Elhaik.

Sand who is an Israeli professor of history at Tel Aviv University settled that issue in his book, “The Invention of the Jewish People.” His findings were further corroborated by the Johns Hopkins University geneticist Dr. Eran Elhaik in his genetic study, "The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses."

To me whether there’s a link or not is irrelevant, for people are connected to the land by virtue of their humanity, not their religious beliefs.
 

Carrie B (306)
Saturday July 19, 2014, 3:55 pm
If we follow your reasoning Barbara, the UN and EU could step in and throw everyone out of the US if they are not Native American because we took this land by force. Didn't we also take Texas from Mexico? I guess they could be "generous" like the Israelis and give us a couple of places to live ~ like Death Valley or maybe Supai, Arizona, or maybe the sand hills of Nebraska. I hear those are all great places.
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Saturday July 19, 2014, 10:32 pm
Hi Carrie :)

What do you mean when you say that Palestinians were not a "conquered people"? The land they lived on passed, by force, from the control of former rulers to the control of current ones, along with legal jurisdiction over the people there. That's what military conquest is and has always been. Do you think the war of 1967 is still ongoing, or that they somehow came out on top?.

I know you asked Barbara and not me, but there are countless examples of pre-1948 Jihadists of the same faction from which Hamas grew. The Ottomans who conquered chunks of the Balkans and forced conversions way back? Same faction. The Caliphate that conquered from India to Spain and imposed religious rule throughout? Same faction. Hamas' immediate predecessor-organization, from which it grew, the Muslim Brotherhood, was definitely around in 1948, and it fought against pre-Israeli Zionists in 1948. The fight, for the moment, is against Hamas, but only because Hamas is the relevant organization of its movement. The fight is against the movement from which Hamas came, which has very old roots.

Also, in what way does Barbara's reasoning suggest that the U.N. would have any such right? The U.N. has no right nor power to throw anybody out of any land.

Hi Sam :)

Sand's work "The Invention of the Jewish People", was based entirely around what he expected to find and did not. According to him, the fact that he could not find 2,500 year-old records about a specific event suggests that it did not occur. Yeah, and I have a bridge to sell him in California. The Romans annihilated a lot of nations, and our only real records of them are of their destruction. Obviously all those people just popped into existence immediately before being killed because we cannot find even 1,500 year-old records of anything else about them.

The geneticist's work fails to account for known confounding factors: Israel was conquered by the Assyrian and the Babylonians, and those empire spread into the Caucasus. That was the original exile. Later, Greeks showed up and there was heavy assimilation, most likely with quite a bit of intermarriage. That already accounts for the Caucasian, Semitic, and European ancestry. He might as well have said that modern Jews originated in China because they have two arms and two legs, just like the Chinese.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 20, 2014, 10:50 am
Carrie, you caught a glimmer. The Israelites are the indigenous peoples of Canaan Judea.
*. These immigrants started arriving in successive waves starting in the 1880s and continued through the creation of the state of Israel. Given the fact that an Arab-Arab conflict never took shape before the Jews arrived, it would be understandable to conclude that there must have been something especially harsh about the dispossession resulting from Zionist methods of land accumulation.
One would expect to see commonplace examples of Jews stealing, strong-arming, swindling, blackmailing; basically resorting to any trick up their sleeve to pry land out of Arab hands. In reality, the Jewish technique of accumulating land was simple ... they bought it. Both the concern and the complaints of Jews dispossessing Arabs centered on how much land the Jews were purchasing, not stealing, from land owners:*
*"The settlers were ready to pay much more than the economic value of the land. The same or better land is available a few kilometers to the east or north of the Palestine frontiers at one tenth or less of the Palestinian price."
*“Between 1880 and 1914 over sixty thousand Jews entered Palestine … Many settled on wasteland, sand-dunes and malarial marsh, which they then drained, irrigated and farmed. In 1909 a group of Jews founded the first entirely Jewish town, Tel Aviv, on the sandhills north of Jaffa. The Jews purchased their land piecemeal, from European, Turkish and (principally) Arab landlords, mostly at extremely high prices*
"The Jews were paying exorbitant prices to wealthy landowners for small tracts of arid land. “In 1944, Jews paid between $1,000 and $1,100 per acre, mostly for arid or semiarid land; in the same year, rich black soil in Iowa was selling for about $110 per acre."

And etc., you can look it up yourself.
You, for some reason, can't comprehend that the Israelites were the indigenous people of Judea. Can you understand the when they returned they BOUGHT the land back from the Arabs - double rights to occupancy ~ and not the good land that was available. THEY bought the swamps and desert and dregs and hard work and labor and ingenuity THEY rebuilt Israel.

 

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 20, 2014, 10:51 am
If Israel was so bloody precious to the Arabs, why did they leave as a remote, dead, unwanted wasteland for so many centuries.
I guess it looked a lot more comfy after the ISRAELIS did all the work, ya think???

So yes, I did say..exactly. By your reasoning no indigenous people have a right to their own ancestral homeland.
As the daughter of an invader and settler you should haul up to Jicarilla with your apologies. Thean call the leaders of Hamas and tell them to vacate.
 

Carrie B (306)
Sunday July 20, 2014, 12:16 pm
And Barbara, you think that if Native Americans rise up against all in this country who are not of Native American descent that the UN has the right to make the decision for us to vacate our homes and move to some undetermined location?

Hardly seems the moral high ground when you become as bad as your invaders. You live in a world of delusional justice in which there are no winners. Only strong vs. weak aided by outside influences and money.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday July 20, 2014, 12:42 pm
By your reasoning, Carrie, yes indeed. Stones hurt when they're in your own shoes, don't they?

Aren't you taking the moral high ground when you judge for yourself what's in my mind? Or the acts of the U.N.?
Perhaps the U.N understood who had the unalienable rights to the land? Who do you think you are to say the Indians don't have the rights to their own land? You're are nothing but a *settler*, and so the Arabs are nothing but *settlers* in Israel.
Strong vs. weak? Influence and money?
Hmmm..you must be talking about Iran.


 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 23, 2014, 4:09 am
The definition of a war crime would unarguably be bombing an airport ~ undeniably a non-military target ~ and deliberately endangering not only Israeli, but also international civilians.
And town centers, high-tension power lines, nuclear reactors...........
And you will vilify Israel if she retaliates by striking a military target deliberately, cowardly, and deeply ensconsced in a cilivilan neighborhood (in itself a war crime). You will also want the International Court to ignore this flagrant and unconscionable violation of the Rules of War and International Humanitarian Law.
 

Sam H (410)
Wednesday July 23, 2014, 7:48 am
Barbara,

I’m starting to agree with you more and more.

“The definition of a war crime would unarguably be bombing an airport ~ undeniably a non-military target ~ and deliberately endangering not only Israeli, but also international civilians.”

I particularly like the “UNARGUABLY” part!

In that spirit of combatting war crimes, I would certainly welcome your endorsement of prosecuting all of those who commit or have committed such war crimes.

Let’s start with those Israelis who planned and carried out Operation Gift that destroyed some 14 CIVILIAN airplanes in Beirut’s CIVILIAN airport in 1968.

Let’s start by prosecuting those Israeli war criminals that meet your strict definition of war crimes.

Being such an impartial observer of history, I’m sure you don’t have any problem following your own mantra!
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 23, 2014, 8:12 am
Sam, I would suggest you read how the international rules rules of war and the International Humanitarian Laws define *war crimes* My definition is the same as those ruling body's.
I would also suggest you read ALL the details of Operation Gift ~ and you might also want to read about further terrorist hijackings of another El Al jet, and also TWA, Sabena, and Air France.

You don't like *unarguably*?? I think it's a very nice word.
 

Sam H (410)
Wednesday July 23, 2014, 8:19 am
You're either abiding by your own definition or abandoning it.

What parts of the crimes committed by the Israelis during that operation are you disputing?

I absolutely like "UNARGUABLY," but you're the one trying to argue your way out of it.
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 23, 2014, 8:53 am
I'm not going to dispute your misconceptions/assumptions. As I said, research the actual events.

I don't fancy arguing ~ I simply state facts. Take them or leave them; but I'm sure you won't be ABROGATING your opinions based on facts.

A kluger vaist vos er zogt; a nar zogt vos er vaist.
A wise man knows what he says; a fool says what he knows.

 

Sam H (410)
Wednesday July 23, 2014, 9:34 am
This is strange, Barbara! I’m agreeing with you, and you still call it an argument.

Which part of the war crimes committed by the Israelis against civilian airplanes during Operation Gift are you disputing?

I used your own “UNARGUABLE” definition of war crimes, and presented you with undeniable, undisputable facts.

What are you disagreeing with?

I used your own definition of what a war crime is.

Are you having second thoughts about your “UNARGUABLE” definition of what a war crime is? YES or NO?

Are you disputing the crimes committed by the Israelis during the mentioned operation? If so what exactly are you disputing? The number of civilian planes they destroyed? The fact that they were civilian airplanes? The fact that the airport was a civilian airport? That the operation took place in 1968?

Inquiring minds would like to know why you see an argument when there’s NONE!
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 23, 2014, 9:54 am
Do the research, Sammy. I know you have it in you.
 

Sam H (410)
Wednesday July 23, 2014, 10:00 am
Research DONE! Your turn to dispute the facts I presented, Barbara. That is if you can, of course.
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 23, 2014, 11:19 am
We started with that fact that your *facts* aren't evidence of any Israeli war crime.

 

Carrie B (306)
Wednesday July 23, 2014, 11:25 am
Sam, I think feeding trolls just makes them hungrier.
 

Sam H (410)
Wednesday July 23, 2014, 11:51 am
I hate it when you're right, Carrie. O.K. I'll let the facts speak for themselves. And let the trolls stew in their own venom.
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 23, 2014, 12:27 pm
Trolls spit ooblek; snakes and bees inject venom.
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Saturday July 26, 2014, 12:35 am
Hi Sam and Barbara,

Airports and airstrips have, since the beginning of the use of aircraft in war, been considered major military targets. Any airport can be used to transport supplies (munitions, etc.) to soldiers or to launch at least certain types of combat-capable aircraft.
 
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