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Israel Will Not Pull Out of the Next Middle East War Until Hizbollah Is Annihilated


World  (tags: middle-east, Israel, Hizbollah, conflict, Lebanon, hotilities, war, Iran )

Beatrice
- 960 days ago - telegraph.co.uk
On one side, amid the foothills of southern Lebanon, is Hizbollah, the Iranian-backed Shia militia that is busily stockpiling thousands of missiles in readiness for the next round of hostilities against its sworn enemy, Israel. On the other side stand



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Comments

Carrie W. (6)
Friday February 3, 2012, 5:38 am
Prayers with the people of Israel, you go Israel!
 

Alexa R. (333)
Friday February 3, 2012, 6:11 am
Also my prayers are with you, Israel. Bring us peace.
 

Tommy S. (11)
Friday February 3, 2012, 6:39 am
Good will always triumph over evil-the patience of Israel has been sorely tested
 

Rob and Jay B. (121)
Friday February 3, 2012, 7:43 am
Who could blame them? Canada, the US or UK, Venezuela, Iran, Saudi Arabia etc etc etc would all take sane defensive measures against aggression and attack from a neighor, especially one that has sworn to destroy your country. They'd be insane not to! More power to them.
 

Stan B. (124)
Friday February 3, 2012, 11:57 am
Israel needs to wipe out Hizbollah once and for all and the democratic countries of the world needs to let them.
What worries me is the price Israel is going to have to pay to achieve this.
 

Cam V. (417)
Friday February 3, 2012, 12:11 pm
If I were a praying man my prayers would be with all the innocent who are caught in the middle of this. Kudos for Israel for not allowing themselves to be trapped as well. WTH is wrong with the American government once again telegraphing what another country may or may not do. It is evident that this current American administration is not a friend of Israel. What I will pray for is that Obama is a one term president so sanity will be once again returned to the world.
 

Roger Garin-michaud (62)
Friday February 3, 2012, 12:41 pm
noted,thanks !
 

Lynn Geth (199)
Friday February 3, 2012, 1:50 pm
My prayers are with Israel to be able to completely overthrow and demolish Hizbollah once and for all. Peace to Israel! Amen.
 

Fred H. (31)
Friday February 3, 2012, 4:42 pm
It's ironic that the UN, which was formed to end wars, has actually served to prolong this one. In the past, someone wins a war, and it's over. Now, Israel wins a war, so the UN intervenes, and the loser loses nothing, gets to rearm and start another one, and another one, and another one,....
 

James W. (262)
Friday February 3, 2012, 7:48 pm
Prayers said & noted Thanks
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Friday February 3, 2012, 8:39 pm
Hopefully they will proceed only as they did last time, but completely cripple it:

Last time, Israel waited for Hezbollah to strike first, clearly taking the blame for the fighting, even in Lebanon. Due to popular opposition to Hezbollah, the Lebanese government tried to shut down Hezbollah's internal communications afterwards, but was stopped by a near-coup in the capital. (The bill was retracted only after Hezbollah established military control over Beirut.) If Israel can cripple the group enough this time to prevent that, then perhaps the Lebanese government could finish the group off.
 

patrica and edw jones (190)
Saturday February 4, 2012, 3:22 am
We would be more than happy to see Hezbollah exterminated once and for all. They are amassing rockets and military armaments for the big strike. I fear for Israel that it must wait to be attacked before attacking. Be'ahavat Yisrael - may you have Halzlachah. Shalom.
 

NicoleAWAY W. (631)
Saturday February 4, 2012, 8:38 am
noted. my prayers are with Israel, thank you for the forward Cal and the post Beatrice
 

Danica Mirkovic (108)
Saturday February 4, 2012, 8:58 am
Noted, thanks
 

Darlene B. (290)
Saturday February 4, 2012, 10:12 am
noted, blessings and prayers sent their way.
 

Daniel Partlow (189)
Saturday February 4, 2012, 11:38 am
Noted , Thanks.
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday February 4, 2012, 12:41 pm
religion has allowed many conflicts to continue even when solutions are in reach, thinkers change the world and allow reasoned ideas to flourish. "Wars of Religion" only continue the cycle of violence and ignorance. its time to wake the sheeple.
life has value beyond measure
Peace and Love
 

John Gregoire (255)
Saturday February 4, 2012, 1:41 pm
Can Israel fight a two front war? I sure hope we don't even think of picking up their pieces if they attacks Iran. I agree with Michael but wonder of this modern day rise of religious extremism on all sides of the middle east.
 

Bill Eagle (32)
Saturday February 4, 2012, 1:45 pm
Oh my Gawd. We will never have peace as long as the right wing controls Israel.
Lots of Israelis want peace, and would like to find a way for everyone to live in peace.
It is evident that this will not happen as long as the Likud is in power.
 

Jon Stewart (37)
Saturday February 4, 2012, 2:11 pm
Great! Once again, TWO paranoid, (believed to be) nuclear-armed theocracies, that refuses to abide by international law, rattling their mighty sabers and hoping on hope for the slightest excuse to launch another war in the name of their "god". Like crazed animals who don't see that there is NO DIFFERENCE between themselves and their "enemy", driven to madness by their own reflection in the mirror.
As always, the "sides" will be determined by those interests whose true "god" is $$$$$, and in the end, the casualties will be heaviest on those with no say in the matter... those who are ALREADY suffering.
If they would only annihilate each other and let those worthy of life get on with it.
 

Fred Krohn (34)
Saturday February 4, 2012, 2:16 pm
The mujadeen and the extremist warhawks among the Israelis need to annihilate each other, then the rest of the people should be able to live as neighbours and settle their squabbles with pickup football games or camel races or some such.
 

surjit k. (1)
Saturday February 4, 2012, 2:39 pm
It is not in the interest of Arabs to have peace with Israel, Otherwise the wishes of almighty Allah and Mo-ham-mad will not be fulfilled, ie complete annihilation of Jews from the Arabian peninsular. Those who thing Israel does not belong to that part of the world should look into the history of the Jewish people and also read Quran. I wish this time if Hezbollah or any other terrorist group attacks Israel, they must be destroyed for good. All civilized people of the world stand by Israel where as naive ,ignorant people stand with terrorists, who stupid can they get? let America be taken over by this lot. www.blip.tv/file/1382254
 

Ros G. (91)
Saturday February 4, 2012, 2:49 pm
The War mongers and their spectators never cease to amaze me. The only thing missing here is a betting ring.
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday February 4, 2012, 2:55 pm
I'm so pleased that the patriots of Hizbollah kicked the murdering Zionist occupiers out of Southern Lebanon and then defeated them once more when the Zionist Entity gratuitously tried to invade Lebanon again. And now the Zionists want more. More death and murders of innocent people. More destruction of their neighbouring countries, each of which they have attacked and occupied more than once.

And they play the victim card. Poor little Zionist Entity. Armed to the teeth with nuclear bombs, second strike capability, the 4th armed forces of the world against countries that they have attacked and impoverished as well as having caused millions of refugees, Jewish, Muslim and Christian. They say they are afraid of being thrown into the sea. That's what they did to the Palestinians.And that's what they want to do to the ones that are left in the rump of Palestine. And they will kill, kill and kill for their racist theocratic state. They will cause anti-semitism to try and get Jews to move to the Zionist Entity.

Good for Hebollah. Long may they remain to defend Lebanon. If only the other Arab states had such patriots.
 

Carol Dreeszen (364)
Saturday February 4, 2012, 4:02 pm
It's only when other nations try and come in and force a retreat on the countries at war..thus the war never comes up with a winner. I say let them duke it out and may the best man win!! And stay the hell out of it!! I say to Israel "go for the gold this time if you're going to do it!"
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Saturday February 4, 2012, 5:04 pm
Hi John G.,

In 1967, Israel fought a three-front war. I'm pretty sure it can handle two fronts. I also recently looked into its military capabilities and its technology is flat-out better than American. However, hitting Hezbollah would not be a matter of a two-front war: Hezbollah is Iran's proxy-force on its border. Completely wiping out Hezbollah would severely reduce Iran's ability to strike at Israel, possibly allowing such a strike to take the place of a far more costly direct attack on Iran. Even if it does get caught fighting both directly, it would be against a single opponent on a contiguous front (as Iran would have to base operations out of Syria).

Hi William :)
Only Nixon could go to China. I think only Likud can make a peace anybody would trust.

Hi Surjit,
I think the issue way back was that Mohammed did not trust peace with other nations to last. If you want me to go into detail on this, I can, but it is a long story.

Hi John D.,
The only way that Hezbollah could be considered to have defeated Israel in military terms is if you define anything short of total destruction of Hezbollah as a win for it, as it explicitly did in its declaration of victory. Its stockpiles were smashed, trained (as far as its forces get trained) personnel were killed, it took such extreme political damage within Lebanon that the government tried to shut down its internal communications, and it failed to do any serious damage to Israel. Israel changed out its military chief after the war because he tried to win a war with straight air-power, refusing to let ground-forces get deployed until the Lebanese national army was almost ready to get deployed. (Israel's strategy was to destroy the roads and logistical abilities to delay Lebanese military deployment, and then pull out before its army could deploy to the front. Had Lebanon taken its time, Hezbollah would have been too weak by the end to have forced the government to retract the bill.)

Also, they did not throw the Palestinians into the sea. Over a million still live in Gaza. As for Hezbollah being patriotic, it works for Assad's regime and Iran, not Lebanon. The fighting in Beirut when the democratically elected government tried to shut it down should have been enough to let you know that.

Hi Carol :)
The unclear power-structure (dominated by Western favour which changes every few years) definitely makes it impossible for war to end. Entirely aside from that, though, I think Jews and Islamic Arabs have incompatibly different ideas about how to resolve a political conflict.
 

Carol H. (229)
Saturday February 4, 2012, 5:29 pm
thanks Beatrice, noted, and thank you Cal for the forward
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday February 4, 2012, 5:49 pm
Oh Stephen. Why are you so shameless?

Haifa - حيفا : Haifa Palestinians are pushed into the sea to make way for persecuted European Jews to have a home soon after Haifa's occupation, April 1948

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Haifa/Haifa/Picture44261.html

As for Gaza, many of the older residents remember being expelled from their homes in what is temporarily the Zionist Entity way after 1948 and the aggression by the nascent "state" was over. These include residents of what is Ashkelon today.

"In August 1950, by a combination of inducements and threats, Al-Majdal’s 1000-2000 remaining inhabitants were expelled and trucked to Gaza. According to Eyal Kafkafi(1998), "Segregation or integration of the Israeli Arabs - two concepts in Mapai". International Journal of Middle East Studies 30: 347-367, as reported in Wikipedia, David Ben-Gurion and Moshe Dayan promoted the expulsion"

http://palestinechronicle.com/view_article_details.php?id=15274

As for your ludicrous assrtion that Hezbollah didn't win the war with the Zionist Entity, why did the Entity call for and agree a force INSIDE Lebanon to protect itself?

"So, how come George Bush and Lord Blair of Kut al-Amara - after their inevitable disasters in Afghanistan and Iraq - believe that a Nato-led force is going to survive on the south Lebanese border? The Israelis would obviously enjoy watching its deployment - it will be time for the West to take the casualties - but Hizbollah is likely to view its arrival as a proxy Israeli army. It is, after all, supposed to be a "buffer" force to protect Israel - not, as the Lebanese have quickly noted, to protect Lebanon - and the last Nato army that came to this country was literally blasted out of its mission by suicide bombers."

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14309.htm



 

Carmen S. (611)
Saturday February 4, 2012, 6:48 pm
thanks Beatrice
 

Dave C. (214)
Saturday February 4, 2012, 7:18 pm
all I can say is how sad....why can't people find courage in their faith and be willing to truly work towards peace rather than war?
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday February 4, 2012, 8:01 pm
I stand with Israel.
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday February 4, 2012, 8:03 pm
My payers are with our Care2 members who are there in Israel.
 

Kamila A. (141)
Saturday February 4, 2012, 8:53 pm
I stand with humanity and with LIFE for ALL, because we are all ONE. Standing with any country is wrong-minded, because we are a global community. Lets become united towards peace, and figure out a way out of small-minded grudges.
 

Gary A L. (134)
Saturday February 4, 2012, 9:57 pm
enough blame for everyone early Before Isreal was a country jewish leaders killed women and children whats the difference between them and hezbollah really none
 

ellen m. (222)
Saturday February 4, 2012, 11:45 pm
If the leaders had to fight the wars there would be none.
Paranoia, egos and religion together make for a perfect storm.
My prayers are for the innocent.
 

Elle J. (279)
Sunday February 5, 2012, 12:38 am
Noted! Thanks Beatrice for the post.
 

Hermon Mihranian (0)
Sunday February 5, 2012, 1:52 am
Israel's present policy is running on the wrong track. It looks like they do not want peace and security in the region. Violance will create violance. They must stopp publishing aggressive statements.
 

Beatrice B. (115)
Sunday February 5, 2012, 5:05 am
Hermon,
Israel did not publish an aggressive statement, just noted that Syrian backed-Hezbollah is stockpiling weapons on the border.
Dave,
Tell the muslims that wishing to kill all jews is not the way forward for peace.
 

KS Goh (0)
Sunday February 5, 2012, 5:32 am
Thanks for the article.
 

Jonjon Hoy (146)
Sunday February 5, 2012, 5:45 am
Prayers for the inoscent. I hope this isn't Blind Man Bluff as we can't take chances but Peace has to start somewhere from this childish game.
 

Jonjon Hoy (146)
Sunday February 5, 2012, 5:48 am
What I can't understand is the Muslims want to kill all Jews, are they going to kill Christ too since He is King of the Jews. King of Kings, Lord of Lords.
 

Beatrice B. (115)
Sunday February 5, 2012, 6:38 am
In the eyes of the great Mo, no Jew should no be allowed to live.
 

Rob and Jay B. (121)
Sunday February 5, 2012, 6:59 am
John Dhimmi, the Jew hating Israeaphobe always shows up to spout his hateful Islamic propaganda. Those are are hate sites he quotes from. Who could believe anything they say?

Christians and gays in the 'Palestinian occupied Entity' are being persecuted and driven out, most fleeing to freedom, tolerance and safety in Israel. Just look at all Islamic occupied countries and see the difference with Israel - the only true democracy with freedom for all in the whole region. It has its problems, like any civilized place, but compared to any Islamic ruled land it is paradise.
 

Mary P. (157)
Sunday February 5, 2012, 7:35 am
Here is something, for all you warmongers who are for war on iran, to ponder about!

Copied and pasted from link below:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/23/opinion/23cohen.html :

Op-Ed Columnist

What Iran’s Jews Say - NYTimes.com

By ROGER COHEN

Published: February 22, 2009


Esfahan, Iran


Earl Wilson/The New York Times

Roger Cohen




At Palestine Square, opposite a mosque called Al-Aqsa, is a synagogue where Jews of this ancient city gather at dawn. Over the entrance is a banner saying: “Congratulations on the 30th anniversary of the Islamic Revolution from the Jewish community of Esfahan.”

The Jews of Iran remove their shoes, wind leather straps around their arms to attach phylacteries and take their places. Soon the sinuous murmur of Hebrew prayer courses through the cluttered synagogue with its lovely rugs and unhappy plants. Soleiman Sedighpoor, an antiques dealer with a store full of treasures, leads the service from a podium under a chandelier.

I’d visited the bright-eyed Sedighpoor, 61, the previous day at his dusty little shop. He’d sold me, with some reluctance, a bracelet of mother-of-pearl adorned with Persian miniatures. “The father buys, the son sells,” he muttered, before inviting me to the service.

Accepting, I inquired how he felt about the chants of “Death to Israel” — “Marg bar Esraeel” — that punctuate life in Iran.

“Let them say ‘Death to Israel,’ ” he said. “I’ve been in this store 43 years and never had a problem. I’ve visited my relatives in Israel, but when I see something like the attack on Gaza, I demonstrate, too, as an Iranian.”

The Middle East is an uncomfortable neighborhood for minorities, people whose very existence rebukes warring labels of religious and national identity. Yet perhaps 25,000 Jews live on in Iran, the largest such community, along with Turkey’s, in the Muslim Middle East. There are more than a dozen synagogues in Tehran; here in Esfahan a handful caters to about 1,200 Jews, descendants of an almost 3,000-year-old community.

Over the decades since Israel’s creation in 1948, and the Islamic Revolution of 1979, the number of Iranian Jews has dwindled from about 100,000. But the exodus has been far less complete than from Arab countries, where some 800,000 Jews resided when modern Israel came into being.

In Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt and Iraq — countries where more than 485,000 Jews lived before 1948 — fewer than 2,000 remain. The Arab Jew has perished. The Persian Jew has fared better.

Of course, Israel’s unfinished cycle of wars has been with Arabs, not Persians, a fact that explains some of the discrepancy.

Still a mystery hovers over Iran’s Jews. It’s important to decide what’s more significant: the annihilationist anti-Israel ranting, the Holocaust denial and other Iranian provocations — or the fact of a Jewish community living, working and worshipping in relative tranquillity.

Perhaps I have a bias toward facts over words, but I say the reality of Iranian civility toward Jews tells us more about Iran — its sophistication and culture — than all the inflammatory rhetoric.

That may be because I’m a Jew and have seldom been treated with such consistent warmth as in Iran. Or perhaps I was impressed that the fury over Gaza, trumpeted on posters and Iranian TV, never spilled over into insults or violence toward Jews. Or perhaps it’s because I’m convinced the “Mad Mullah” caricature of Iran and likening of any compromise with it to Munich 1938 — a position popular in some American Jewish circles — is misleading and dangerous.

I know, if many Jews left Iran, it was for a reason. Hostility exists. The trumped-up charges of spying for Israel against a group of Shiraz Jews in 1999 showed the regime at its worst. Jews elect one representative to Parliament, but can vote for a Muslim if they prefer. A Muslim, however, cannot vote for a Jew.

Among minorities, the Bahai — seven of whom were arrested recently on charges of spying for Israel — have suffered brutally harsh treatment.

I asked Morris Motamed, once the Jewish member of the Majlis, if he felt he was used, an Iranian quisling. “I don’t,” he replied. “In fact I feel deep tolerance here toward Jews.” He said “Death to Israel” chants bother him, but went on to criticize the “double standards” that allow Israel, Pakistan and India to have a nuclear bomb, but not Iran.

Double standards don’t work anymore; the Middle East has become too sophisticated. One way to look at Iran’s scurrilous anti-Israel tirades is as a provocation to focus people on Israel’s bomb, its 41-year occupation of the West Bank, its Hamas denial, its repetitive use of overwhelming force. Iranian language can be vile, but any Middle East peace — and engagement with Tehran — will have to take account of these points.

Green Zoneism — the basing of Middle Eastern policy on the construction of imaginary worlds — has led nowhere.

Realism about Iran should take account of Esfehan’s ecumenical Palestine Square. At the synagogue, Benhur Shemian, 22, told me Gaza showed Israel’s government was “criminal,” but still he hoped for peace. At the Al-Aqsa mosque, Monteza Foroughi, 72, pointed to the synagogue and said: “They have their prophet; we have ours. And that’s fine.”

More Articles in Opinion » A version of this article appeared in print on February 23, 2009, on page A27 of the New York edition.
 

monica r. (41)
Sunday February 5, 2012, 7:44 am
John,
Oh brother, you are really a propagandist, aren't you......

Refugees choosing to leave by boat. Tell us how they were all welcomed as equal citizens when they reached their destinations, or are they still denied citizenship and relegated to second or third class jobs in the Muslim countries they fled to? You know they are. Meanwhile those Arabs living in Israel have full citizenship and all the rights, including they can be in the Knesset.

When you said they were "thrown into the sea" I was imagining them trying not to drown, but it was a boat ride. Not quite the same.
 

Mary P. (157)
Sunday February 5, 2012, 8:40 am
Copied and pasted for all you 'warmongers' and 'hatemongers' to see how the jews and muslims co-exist in Iran.
http://www.iranjewish.com/Essay_E/Essay_e1.htm


IRANIAN JEWS



Iranian Jews have been living in Iran (Persia) since 2700 years ago and there are many holy and historical places of Jews in this country such as the tomb of Prophet Daniel in the city of Shoush, Ester and Mordechai in Hamedan and Prophet Habakkuk in Touiserkan.

There are also tombs of several outstanding Jewish scholars in Iran like "harav Uresharga" in Yazd and "Hakham Mullah Moshe Halevi" in Kashan. Muslims had respected these also.

At the present, population of the Jews in Iran is estimated about 25’000 to 30’000 of which about 15000 people are in Tehran (the Capital) and the rest of them in terms of population are residing in Shiraz, Isfahan, Kermanshah, Yazd, Kerman, Rafsanjan, Borujerd, Sanandaj and Oromieh respectively.



Administration of Jewish Social Religious affairs in the past has been under the two authorities, “Hebra” (the assembly of the elite of community) and “Bet-Din” (the house of religion). Since 1938, Hebra was formally registered under the title of “Tehran Jewish Committee (Association)” and now is operating under supervision of the Ministry of Interior, and Ministry of culture and Islamic Guidance and Endowments Organization. This association has committees (subgroups) like Cultural, States, Youth, (Domestic) Dispute Settling, and Cooperative committees (for poor families).



By establishment of the National legislature in Constitutional period (about a century ago), religious minorities in Iran obtained representation in the parliament and since then Jews have always had representatives in the parliament. After the victory of the Islamic revolution (1979), a Jewish representatives in the parliament. After the victory of the Islamic Revolution, a Jewish representative has had an active presence in the Constitution of Elite Council. According to the Constitution, Jews have a representative in Islamic Consultative Assembly (Parliament called “Majlis”). Political, social, and religious activities of Jewish society revolve around Jewish religious authorities (Chief Rabbi Yousef Hamedani Cohen), Jews representative in Islamic Consultative Assembly and Tehran Jewish Committee Board of Directors. Any position declaration or pursuance of legal, political, and social issues of Jewish society is addressed through above bodies.



At the present, this community has many synagogues, special schools, cultural complexes, youth, students and women centers, aging centers, central libraries, computer training centers, music training centers, gathering halls and butcheries according to Jewish religion in different regions and cities of the country. Information and publishing of Jewish cultural works as many different books and journals almost always have been present and after the Islamic Revolution, in addition to periodical local bulletins, the magazine of “Tamouz” (up to 1989) and the monthly of “Ofegh-BINA” (organ of Jewish Committee since 1999) have been responsible for the task. Tehran Jews usually do their sport activities in the sport club of “Gibor.” This club is responsible for sport training courses and competitions as well as contests between religious minorities and always has the cooperation from Jew and non-Jew coaches. Jewish Women Organization is cooperating with this club in women sport affairs too. Charity Hub is also one of the charity agencies of Jewish society that its main activity is managing the Dr. Sapir Hospital in south of Tehran city that provides services to all of Tehran citizens. The cost of maintaining this hospital is primarily provided by the Jewish charitable.



Religious teaching foe Jews is taught formally up to the end of high school according to books approved by Education Ministry in certain hours (instead of Islamic teachings and the Quran) in public schools. Along with this, sessions for training of religious teachings and the explanation of Torah and sometimes teachings of Talmud are taught irregularly in the synagogues (Talmud Torah). In addition, groups of youth usually organize religious gathering and congregations and religious speeches in most of synagogues of Tehran and other cities throughout the country.



Tehran Jews has established and made use of many schools that in recent years because of reduction in population as well as dispersing of Jewish students in other public schools, a number of these schools have been reposed to Education Office and Muslim students. Now, there are five special schools teaching Jews that are active in Tehran.



* * * * *



Cultural Committee

Among daily and important tasks of cultural committee is answering to Muslim scholars about different aspects of Jewish religion and culture. In addition, association of the Cultural Committee has the responsibility of editing and evaluation of several books and academic dissertations about Jewish religion and in some cases a representative from this committee has also participated in the defense session of dissertations formally.



Fortunately, the Jewish Committee as a formal authority is reflecting views in the field of Jewish culture at the scientific and academic circles of the country. So that in almost all of the meetings, seminars and even mass media programs which are held on monotheistic religions, cultural and religious delegates from Jewish religious community are invited to take part in them by Tehran Jewish Committee.



In addition to an agreement reached by colleges of religious course of Tehran universities, in each educational term, a session of Jewish religion subject matter is provided in which an expert from the Cultural Committee in the university is present or the university students actively take part in such meetings held by Cultural Committee.



Publications make up another part of activities of the Cultural Committee. Sidour “Tefilat Yasharim” (prayer book) along with Persian translation of its important parts has been prepared and provided recently. Compilation and publication of Jewish and Persian yearly calendar is the responsibility of experts of this cultural committee.

Press and Publications Division of Tehran Jewish Committee take part in the Tehran International Book Fair every year and have a special pavilion for answering many of Iranian Muslim clienteles.



The Journal of “Ofegh-BINA”

This magazine as the organ of Jewish Committee began its publication since 1999. This is a social, news, and cultural journal and aims at providing information services to Iranian Jewish community as well as making their Muslim countrymen and women familiar with Jewish culture and establishing communication relationship between the two. Most of its authors and operators are made up of Jewish youth and Mr. Haroun Yashayaei; the chairman of board of directors of Tehran Jewish Committee is its managing director.

This magazine has been welcomed and promoted by the authorities of Islamic Republic of Iran.



Persian-Hebrew Dictionary

This dictionary is compiled by “Solomon Haim” (1889-1968), one of the most famous Jewish scientists of Iran. He has compiled the most well known French-Persian, Persian-English, and English-Persian dictionaries and for this he is of high respect and prestige among the people of Iran.

He began his 10-year effort in 1935 for compiling Hebrew-Persian Dictionary and published a valuable and unique book that since then has used by Jewish and non-Jewish scholars of Iran in the Hebraic language and texts. He also began compiling a Persian-Hebrew Dictionary, but most regretfully, he could not complete to work, because of his lamentable death. According to his testament, the edition and publication of this dictionary was put on Tehran Jewish Committee which despite of all efforts, this objective has not been achieved and now a special task force in the Cultural Committee are editing and adding new words, updating and final typesetting of the work to be prepared for publication.



Schools

Of the most important duties of the Cultural Committee is to handling and supervising special Jewish schools and providing classes for religious teaching and training of Jewish religious acts for those Jewish students that study in public schools.

According to an estimated statistics, about 3000 Jewish students are studying in Iran that in Tehran half of the Jewish students are studying in special schools and other half attend in public schools. In other cities, all of Jewish students take part of public schools and their religious teachings and acts are usually taught on Fridays (weekend holiday in Iran) and these special classes are held in Tehran, Shiraz, and other Jewish-residing cities of the country.



Nursery Schools

Nursery schools of Tehran Jewish Committee have been among quite successful agencies in the community and always more than 100 Jewish children have been learning special lessons and skills in these schools and have been using their facilities under the principals and experienced trainers.



The Library

The central Library of Jewish Association with more than 8000 titles and 14000 volumes of books is active now which is one of the important centers of Jewish Committee that because of multiplicity of titles and the subjects of the books and preparing the last published edition of newly published local and foreign books, has many borrowers and members.

Aside from Jewish members and clients, many of clients of this library are formed by non-Jewish scholars and researchers who by providing guidance from Cultural committee and Library authorities make access and utilize of reach and comprehensive source of the Library especially in the division allocated to the religion and culture.



Computer Center

Providing Jewish special schools with computer sites as well as training formal courses and extra computer courses in these schools are among responsibilities of the Computer center of Tehran Jewish Committee. All services of typesetting, Page setting and typography, the press and publications of Tehran Jewish Committee as well as providing technical support for computer units of this Committee and related centers are included among the tasks of this center’s experts.

Designing, operating, supporting and updating internet Base of the Tehran Jewish Committee which are among the most important activities of this center are done in direct cooperation with Cultural Committee and the journal of “Ofegh-Bina”. At the present, this site is in Persian and soon its English version also will be in operation.

Providing various computer software including translation of “Psalm” (Tehilim) and designing Hebrew font compatible with Persian software is of scientific activities of this center.



Youth Committee

Organizing the activities of Iranian Jewish youth in cultural, artistic, sport, and social fields is one of the most important duties of Tehran Jewish Committee. Attraction of emigration abroad, disappointment in finding appropriate jobs and problems in regarding to mating and marriage in Jewish community are among special problems of Iranian Jewish community youth.

Sport teams of Jews for boys in footstall, volleyball and basketball fields are active now. Young people and their families have welcomed forming classes for training music in different levels. Organizing recreational and pilgrimage tours in different parts of Iran for Jewish youth are of other activities of this committee.

For helping the marriage of young people, the Board of Directors of the Committee have allocated a kind of interest-free loan for any Jewish couple who are applicant to obtain loan and provide their marriage certificate.



Iranian Jewish Students’ Organization (I.J.S.O)

is among the centers belonging to Tehran Jewish youth, which is a place for cultural, social, and artistic activities for Jewish university students. This organization by organizing weekly meeting covering scientific, social, musical lectures and free discussion as well as holding scores of cultural seminars along with publication of student local bulletins, plays an important part in student activities of Iranian Jewish community. A branch of this organization, that is located in Shiraz, has similar activities.



Jewish Women Organization

The general weekly meetings of this organization usually are on social and cultural issues and are attended by more than 50 women. Consideration and attention to the legal rights of Jewish women and participation in their different gatherings and meetings and familiarity of Jewish women with their own legal rights are among activities and goals of this organization.



Dr. Sapir Hospital

Dr. Sapir Hospital and Charity Center is the biggest charity of religious minorities in Iran. This large charity center which has been helping all poor and needy citizens from the first days of its establishment and at the present more than 90 per cent of its clients are non-Jewish citizens, has obtained a high prestige and reputation for Iranian Jewish community, during more than half a century. Now, it is one of the most important contact means with the authorities of the Islamic system and Iranian compatriots. Tehran Jewish Committee employs all its possibilities for the maintenance of Dr. Sapir Hospital and equipping it with all modern health and medical means and equipments.



Synagogues

There are about 100 synagogues in Iran of which about 26 are in Tehran. Iranian synagogues in terms of the history and place of construction have a variety of architectural styles. There are several synagogues in Tehran, Yazd and Isfahan cities, which because of their antiquity and beauty of architecture have been ear marked as national historic sites by Cultural Heritage Organization of the country and have been recorded and come under protection of that organization. Apart from some of the synagogues in the south of Tehran city and some other cities which their Jewish residents have migrated, most of the synagogues in different parts of the country are up and active. In two of the great synagogues of Tehran and one great synagogue in Shiraz, on every Friday evening (Sabbath) about 500 people are gathering and holding congregations.



* * * * *



Iranian Jews in the vicissitudes history of this Islamic country always tried to have good coexistence with their compatriots. Although in many of historical epochs, problems and sometimes disasters have happened for this society but the vigilance and wisdom of Muslim and Jewish leaders has prohibited the continuation or recurrence of those problems and disasters.

After the Islamic Revolution of Iran in 1979, despite the emphasis of the Constitution on formality and maintaining the rights of Jewish, Christian and Zoroastrian religious minorities, social pressures exerted on this community caused emigration of many of them. However, the coherence of this community was maintained by efforts of Jewish community authorities and through many meetings with leaders and heads of administrative, legislative and judiciary as well as legal proceedings, welfare and security of Jewish citizens was maintains at a somewhat desirable level. Now, the relations of Jewish authorities with high-ranking officials of the state are at a very desirable level. In spite of some humiliations from some of the journals and the mass media to the rights and religious sanctity of Jews, Jewish authorities view the problem largely due to actions of political Zionism and the regime of Israel, which sometimes causes suspicion toward all of Iranian and the world Jews. Jewish Committee while responding and prosecuting these humiliations and misunderstandings toward the Jewish religion and culture, has always been formally announcing the separation of sanctity and religious causes of the Jewish community from Zionist political objectives and in many instances, has protested against crimes of Israeli regime and violation of human rights by this regime.



* * * * *



The country of Iran is one of the most ancient historical lands of Jews where one can see many indications of Jewish identity in its different parts. All of the world Jews can, without facing any difficulty, while visiting the vast and historical country of Iran and visiting its beautiful picturesque, visit the relics and historical shrines of Jews as well.

Tehran Jewish Committee is ready to provide any coordination and guidance for Jewish fold who are visiting to Iran

 

Hermon Mihranian (0)
Sunday February 5, 2012, 8:55 am
The problem is not caused by the jewish, arab, christian and or other comunities, for centuries they lived in peace . What causes the problem is the present falce idiology among polititions. They are zhose who cause trouble. That is why I once again say that both jews and arabs must stopp trying to solve the problem by using force.
 

Alexa R. (333)
Sunday February 5, 2012, 10:25 am
How can Israel find the peace she so desire when she continually receives death threats? Is she simply to ignore the death threats, and hope they were lies or jokes?

This bully of Israel laughs at those desiring peace.
 

Alexander Werner (53)
Sunday February 5, 2012, 11:00 am
Moderate Muslims in Lebanon have to disarm the Iranian militants operating on their land - Hesbals. Hesbals take orders and money from Iran, and are vicious enough to kill Lebanese president. No, they are not "defending Lebanon from Israel" who volunteered to leave Lebanon while its enemy Syria was still there.

Hesbols are imposing power of Iranian mullahs on those who despise it, especially Lebanese Christians.
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Sunday February 5, 2012, 11:22 am
Hi John,

I'm shameless because I have nothing to be ashamed of.

Yes, they were driven into Gaza, not the sea. "Drive them into the sea" was a call by Arab armies for genocide of Jews in the area in 1948. Clearly, as they survived, no genocide was carried out against Palestinians.

I think you hit the nail on the head with how it is clear that Israel was not defeated. The country that gets part of its territory forcibly demilitarised and effectively occupied by foreign forces is not the one that came out on top. The interesting part is that the last force, not the American one that left after the barracks-bombing, was present right up until 2006. That force was so thoroughly bound by rules of engagement that Hezbollah launched rockets from right outside its buildings and the "force" could not stop it. Hopefully this new one will be more effective. It's either that or, I suspect, another fight. Those forces protect Lebanon just as much (and if they behave like the last bunch, more) than they do Israel.

Hi Mary,
It's not a question of Jews and Muslims. It's a matter of two states in conflict. While the majority-demographics do play into matters, at its core the conflict in question is between countries, not religions.
 

Marianna Molnar Woods (9)
Sunday February 5, 2012, 11:26 am
the saddest, stupidest war and situation the world has ever known.
 

Beatrice B. (115)
Sunday February 5, 2012, 11:32 am
Marianna,
If someone wants to kill you, is it stupid to want to defend yourself?
 

Matthew Cloner (122)
Sunday February 5, 2012, 12:16 pm
Thanks for sharing, Beatrice. Hezbollah is a cancer that should be eradicated forever from the face of the earth. The Jewish People have every right to return and live in their ancestral home. Zionism is the political and social movement that has made this a reality. Until the world comes to understand that the Jewish People have every right to live in this place, this conflict will continue. The enemies of Israel and the Jewish People will eventually be defeated forever and I hope to live long enough to see this happen in my own lifetime.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday February 5, 2012, 4:31 pm
Bob A

Why do you lie? You say:--

"disarm the Iranian militants operating on their land - Hesbals. "

Of course, everyone knows that the Hezbollah is composed of Lebanese patriots.

"Hesbals take orders and money from Iran, and are vicious enough to kill Lebanese president"

Well no. It is known that it was the Zionist Entity that arranged the murder of the Lebanese PM (not President).

 

Stephen Brian (23)
Sunday February 5, 2012, 5:20 pm
Hi John,

"everyone knows" you're wrong. Real patriots do not hold their democratically elected government at gunpoint to force it to retract a bill. Hezbollah launched a near-coup following the 2006 fight (too small to be considered a war with less than 1,000 deaths total) when the government tried to shut down its internal communications, getting it to retract the bill after taking control of Beirut. "It is known" only among paranoids that Israel is supposed to be responsible for every death in the Middle East and that Arabs never fight amongst themselves. Lebanese investigators, on the other hand, traced the assassination back to Hezbollah. I know about Hezbollah's claims of a false-flag attack, but that really makes no sense. Do you think Lebanese investigators would have hesitated for a second to blame Israel if it were at fault? Do you think Syria would have denounced the investigation before any report was released?

Of course, I don't expect you to think about all the holes in your crazy theories. I expect you, like so many others on Care2, to ignore all questions and just plough ahead trying to propagate your delusions.
 

Cristina M. (132)
Sunday February 5, 2012, 5:39 pm
How nice to talk about erasing Hizbollah, as if were a clean operation. Israel constantly kills civilians, but apparently to many people it's OK, not a big thing. They have the right to defend themselves? Just as they have the right to steal land from the Palestinians, to invade Syria and Lebannon? If Israel gives back all the stolen land, which they have been doing since the 196os, maybe we can start talking about them defending their territory, in the mean time, they're nothing much than oppressors and invaders. Saying that X people have the right to a land because the Bible says so, it's moronic. They all should share the land in peace. I see no difference between Hezbollah, Zionism, Nazis, Facist and the Taliban for that matter.
 

patrica and edw jones (190)
Sunday February 5, 2012, 7:26 pm
The sad fact is that Israel must wait to be attacked first - otherwise the whole world will be on them like a ton of bricks. However I hope that this time Israel will annihilate Hezbollah once and for all. They are a scourge on the face of the earth - they do not respect the right of Israel to exist and are intent on Israel's demise. Be'ahavat Yisrael - halzlachah.
 

(0)
Sunday February 5, 2012, 7:29 pm
Rob/Jay: Where do you get that any website John put up is a hate site. It is actually the sites you visit that are formally recognized as hate sites. You really are a ridiculous man.

I am continually amazed by all of these people who claim to be peaceful, human rights advocates have no problem advocating for war. Really disgusting and no wonder the world is in such a sad state. You want to give preference to Israel over other countries, have no problem when Israel goes and kills a civilian population and what is even more disgusting is that some of you also are claiming this in the name of God?

Thanks John D. for your comments. As for Beatrice, Patricia/Edw and that crew, educate yourselves please before you later will be saying ineffectually "I didn't know". Really, there is no excuse for it. The resources are right at your fingertips, they just don't exist on websites like Jihadwatch, Palwatch and NGOMonitor.

What I find absolutely amazing, is that you all are much more loyal to Israel than their own population. It is often commented on how especially Americans take to their cause much more so than they do.

Thank you also Cristina for your post. Well said.
 

Alexa R. (333)
Sunday February 5, 2012, 11:28 pm
If Hezbollah lay down weapons there will be peace, no more war.

If Israel lay down weapons, there will be no more Israel.

This big bully of Israel laughs at those desiring peace, they have no intention of living in peace with Israel, as they've expressed over and over..
 

Hermon Mihranian (0)
Monday February 6, 2012, 2:51 am
Cristina M. I aggre with you
 

(0)
Monday February 6, 2012, 4:35 am
If Israel stopped invading countries, stopped stealing land and actually heeded International law, maybe there would be peace. Bully of a nuclear power Alexandra, you really are too much. Israel, as clearly demonstrated time after time after time, has no intention of having peace.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday February 6, 2012, 5:55 am
Stephen. Where do you get the arrogance from that thinks that your unsourced assertions are somehow more valid than mine? And this from someone who reckoned that the UN Security Council had allowed and justified the Zionist war of aggression against its neighbours and then couldn't find the resolution... because it doesn't exist.
 

Hermon Mihranian (0)
Monday February 6, 2012, 10:32 am
Abdessalam thank you for you article and comment. This is the truth.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday February 6, 2012, 11:01 am
Abdessalam asks:--

"Was Einstein antisemitic ? "

Of course not, and not even the Zionists could claim that. But one of them will pop up soon to say he was "self hating".
 

Alexa R. (333)
Monday February 6, 2012, 11:10 am
Hermon M: "Abdessalam thank you for you article and comment. This is the truth."

What you claim to be the truth, I consider it to be all lies(taqiyya).
 

Alexa R. (333)
Monday February 6, 2012, 11:50 am
No Abdessalam, NOT at all.
 

surjit k. (1)
Monday February 6, 2012, 12:08 pm
Margaret " If Israel stopped invading countries.." Can you tell us which countries has Israel invaded? Name them please. You muslims are good of accusing Israel at a drop of a hat.
Abdessalam. No amount of your B.S here is going to convince any one in their rightful mine about your lies, period, admit Islam is EVIL so are the muslims.
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Monday February 6, 2012, 2:45 pm
Hi John D.

If you really claim to know so much about Hezbollah, why are you ignorant of Lebanon's internal conflict in 2008? I know Wikipedia itself is not a good source, but follow the references here and get some ind of education (there are frankly too many for me to take the time to list):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_conflict_in_Lebanon
I'm fairly confident that this won't make any difference to you. Even if you actually look at all 73 sources, you'll continue to call my comments unsourced.

By the way, where are your sources explaining how Hezbollah is somehow patriotic? I mean aside from its charter. I know the story it tells, but here's another: In the Lebanese civil war, Israel and Syria backed different factions. both factions claimed to just be Lebanese patriots getting outside assistance, not foreign puppets, but of course foreign puppets would do that too. Hezbollah grew out of a faction which received Syrian backing. Were they really patriots as they claimed (which they would either way), or Syrian puppets as their more recent actions have implied?

Why do you even bother questioning why my comments are more valid than yours as you flat-out ignore history, anything approaching plausibility, and logic? ... "and this coming from someone who" claimed that Hezbollah was patriotic. LOL.
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Monday February 6, 2012, 2:57 pm
Hi Abdessalam,

Interesting detail which you seem to have missed: Irgun was not what became the armed forces of Israel, nor was it anywhere close to the primary Jewish militia at the time. It did not act with the approval of Jews in the area, nor of Haganah, the entity which eventually became the Israeli government and armed forces. Quite the opposite, in fact: First, Irgun split from Haganah over Haganah's lack of aggression against Palestinian Arabs. During the war, Haganah turned against its wartime ally and Irgun's policy-level commanders were forcibly relieved of their command and integrated into Haganah's strategic command, with its combatants integrated into Haganah's forces. As crazy as this may seem, the entity which later became the Israeli government actually fought against and stopped the ethnic cleansing to which Einstein referred.

Einstein's letter was entirely accurate. Your interpretation, posted above it, is severely flawed.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday February 6, 2012, 3:09 pm
Hi Abdessalam. Alexandra's not very smart, is she?

In the meantime the loathsome Surjit K - who tried to say on another thread that 25% of Mauritania's population are Christian slaves and has been very quiet since I pointed out from the CIA Factbook that the country is 100% Muslim - asks which countries the Zionist Entity has invaded.

Well Surjit, just off the top of my head, Egypt (at least twice), Lebanon (at least twice), Jordan, Syria (at least twice and the Entity still occupies Syrian land), the WB, Gaza. In addition, the Entity has conducted warlike and illegal operations in Tunisia and Iraq as well as Jordan.

Is that enough to be getting along with?
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Monday February 6, 2012, 3:10 pm
Hi again Abdesslam,

I forgot to post this last time:
You commented that "He who lives by the sword dies by the sword" regarding Netanyahu's policies. Here's the problem: He dies by the sword by making more and more enemies, eventually too many. The thing is, Israeli policies would only make enemies of Arabs, Iranians, and their supporters, and even then only if they weren't already enemies. At this point, as long as it does not make enemies out of its current allies (which it does not, under its current strategy), Israel stands to lose nothing by "living by the sword". If Arabs and Iranians turn out to be too great an enemy (highly unlikely for a few reasons), then it would be dead already.

You don't really think that making peace with Palestinians would actually bring peace between Israel and Arab states, do you? Palestinians are great for anti-Israel politicians to rally around, but Arab countries don't actually care. Just look at the treatment of Palestinians within them: In Lebanon, they were treated worse than in Israel, at least until recently, forbidden from taking certain jobs, having their movement even more restricted, and getting 238 killed in 2007. In Jordan, does anybody remember Black September? Even in Egypt, take a look: http://www.asmeascholars.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1383&catid=9&Itemid=64 and never mind the use of Gaza as a staging-ground for attacks on Israel before 1967, bringing retaliation down on Palestinians, or the remarkable absence of even a single university there until Israel took over. Arab states, it seems, don't actually care about Israel's policies towards Palestinians, so not only does Israel stand to lose nothing by living by the sword, but it stands to gain nothing by ceasing to do so.
 

Beth M. (244)
Monday February 6, 2012, 4:33 pm
The whole situation is so sad.
 

lee e. (114)
Monday February 6, 2012, 5:23 pm
I tend to agree with Jon Stewart - I reserve judgment - can't stand this mess - and feel they will only get what they have been bargaining for all these years, and Israel dragging the US into their affairs - dictating our policy - I'm thankful that Obama is not such a brown-noser when it comes to Israel (at least thus far - maybe when he sees how profitable it might be to help out his policy will change) Pulease!!!!!! I'm no Israeli empathizer!
 

Alexander Werner (53)
Monday February 6, 2012, 5:25 pm
Hesbola will not be eliminated: it will just convert to a sort of religious gang, trading narcotics, robbing American Arab businesses, defrauding with rebates and doing its usual and new tricks in the commerce.
 

Alexander Werner (53)
Monday February 6, 2012, 5:27 pm
Lee, Obama is a great brown-noser to Saudi king and other Islamist authorities. And I am definetely not Saudi, Qatari, etc empathizer!.

 

Past Member (0)
Monday February 6, 2012, 6:16 pm
What is the point of Bob A, who can't even spell what he's talking about?
 

Mary P. (157)
Monday February 6, 2012, 10:18 pm
Alexandra,"What you claim to be the truth, I consider it to be all lies(taqiyya)."
Sic!!!
 

(0)
Monday February 6, 2012, 11:50 pm
Surjit - You want to know what countries Israel has invaded. How about this - Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and seized and occupies territory from three of the four countries. Also, you are going to claim that Abdessalem is lying, but yet you fail to (time after time after time) fail to even provide the flimsiest of evidence. Nothing from you. That is actually the problem with all of you who claim that everyone is being antisemitic, or self hating, etc. You either have someone who continually misquotes, distorts and just makes things up or the other end of the spectrum, you, Gillian, Bob, etc. who essentially just call it a lie, but fail to prove that it is not true. You provide actually no argument whatsoever regarding your claims.

Alexandra - Can't even be bothered responding to your head in the sand logic. Just because you say it is a lie, it makes it so. How about some proof to go with your claims.

Do any of you, while calling for the death of people, supporting oppression of a population and denying the most basic fundamental rights to another people, ever really think that these are real people, with real children that have been crapped on for the most part of over six decades. For the number of you who claim Gandhi is your role model, I guess there was very little reading of Gandhi and plenty watching of the movie version with Ben Kingsley. Wouldn't any of you actually want to read an Israeli history book, rather than get your info from Jihadwatch and NGO Monitor. Aren't you embarrassed posting comments which are in many cases racist, full of misinformation and based on hasbaric fairy tales.

Most of you resort to name- calling anyone who dares to criticize Israeli governmental policy as antisemitic, self hating or in my case, get called a baby killer, but have no problem demonizing 1.2 billion people because of their faith or race. Not one of us, John, Abdessalem, Mary or myself once have wished harm on anyone nor stereotyped or generalized a population based on faith or race. Yet, here we have a post of calling for annihilation. What is absolutely so transparent that you all call yourselves humanitarians, but call for the destruction of whole populations. Bravo, I am sure whatever God you believe in certainly didn't have this in mind.

John - don't worry about Bob - he tends to make up all kinds of wild claims and even when shown with his own material that he is wrong, he still claims that he is right. For evidence of this, visit Arab Fury Invoked Over Obama's UN Palestinian Statehood Speech.

Alexandra's shining moment was when she used a Kevin Myers article who is a know racist and claimed that providing aid to Africa only results in increasing its population and problems. In that same thread, Alexandra and Patricia/Edw Jones were claiming that "Mathilde Redmatn" stated there was "no humanitarian crisis in Gaza", even though there was no such person "Mathilde Redmatn" only a person named "Mathilde De Riedmatten" who was quoted as saying "calls upon the “international community…TO DO ITS PART TO ENSURE THAT REPEATED APPEALS BY STATES AND INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS TO LIFT THE CLOSURE ARE FINALLY HEEDED". Quite different from there is no humanitarian crisis, which by the way, was only posted on the IDF site. To see more evidence of complete misinformation, distortion and outright lying by Patricia/Edw Jones, Alexandra, Gillian, et al, visit Take Action: U.S. Boat to Gaza Stopped From Sailing Take Action: U.S. Boat to Gaza Stopped From Sailing.

 

(0)
Tuesday February 7, 2012, 12:00 am
Sorry, known racist, not know. It seems the "n" is sticking.
 

Carol Dreeszen (364)
Tuesday February 7, 2012, 12:57 am
MM I would believe someone who lives where the action is before I would believe somebody from Canada!! I think she just may know what she is talking about!!
 

Alexa R. (333)
Tuesday February 7, 2012, 2:21 am
Margaret M: "Alexandra's shining moment was when she used a Kevin Myers article"

Kevin Myers(old news, but since MM seems keen on it -- here goes) artilcle:

"I took part in a discussion about the Middle East last weekend in the Dalkey Books Festival. It was surreal. Not merely was I the only pro-Israeli person in the panel of four, but the chairwoman of the session, Olivia O'Leary, also felt obliged to throw in her three-ha'pence worth.

Israeli settlers on the West Bank were on stolen land, she sniffed. Palestinians in their refugee camps had title deeds to the ancient properties. The UN had repeatedly condemned Israel. Brian Keenan, who was held hostage by Arab terrorists for four years, then detailed Israeli human-rights abuses, to loud cheers.

Israel -- and its sole defender on the panel (is mise) -- were then roundly attacked by members of the audience. But what was most striking about the audience's contributions was the raw emotion: they seemed to loathe Israel.

But how can anyone possibly think that Gaza is the primary centre of injustice in the Middle East? According to Mathilde Redmatn, deputy director of the International Red Cross in Gaza, there is in fact no humanitarian crisis there at all. But by God, there is one in Syria, where possibly thousands have died in the past month.

However, I notice that none of the Irish do-gooders are sending an aid-ship to Latakia. Why? Is it because they know that the Syrians do not deal with dissenting vessels by lads with truncheons abseiling down from helicopters, but with belt-fed machine guns, right from the start?

What about a humanitarian ship to Libya? Surely no-one on the MV Saoirse could possible maintain that life under Gaddafi qualified it as a civilised state. Not merely did it murder opponents by the bucketload at home and abroad, it kept the IRA campaign going for 20 years, and it also -- a minor point, this, I know -- brought down the Pan Am flight at Lockerbie. Yet no Irish boat to Libya. Only the other way round.

And then there's Iraq. Throughout the decades of Saddam Hussein, whose regime caused the deaths of well over a million people, there wasn't a breath of liberal protest against him. Gassing the Kurds? Not a whimper. Invading Kuwait? Not one single angry placard-bearing European liberal outside an Iraqi embassy.

Destroying the drainage systems of the Marsh Arabs? Silence. Manipulating UN oil-for-food programme so that thousands died? Nothing.

Next, Saudi Arabia, whose revolting practices cannot be called medieval without doing a grave injustice to the Middle Ages. It is led by savages who have studiously turned their backs on knowledge -- even as they sip their Krug and their Bollinger in their €100m apartments in Belgravia. They behead and behand, they torture and they mutilate, and they have spent billions on their foul madrasahs teaching young Muslims right across the world to hate us kaffirs. But what demonstrations are there outside Saudi embassies? What flotillas to defend the human rights of the millions of immigrant serfs, who toil without any rights in Saudi homes and in the oil industry?

There isn't a single Arab country, not one, with the constitutional protection that Israel confers on all its citizens, regardless of religion or ethnicity or sexual orientation. And no, I don't like the settlements on the West Bank, but really, by any decent measure, it is simply not possible to gaze upon the entire region, reaching from Casablanca to Yemen, and then to point indignantly and say: "Ah yes, Gaza: that's where the one great injustice lies."

The last 'aid flotilla' to Gaza carried a large number of Islamists who wanted to provoke: and aided by some quite astounding Israeli stupidity, they succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.

Now another convoy is under way, and again with an utterly disingenuous plan to bring "assistance" to the "beleaguered Gazans", some of who, funnily enough, can now cross into Egypt any time they like, and buy their explosives and their Kalashnikovs in the local arms-bazaar.

And as for human-rights abuses: why, nothing that Israel has done in the 63 years of its existence can possibly compare with the mass-murders of Fatah members by Hamas firing-squads over the past five years.

The colossal western intellectual dissonance between evidence and perception on the subject of Israel at this point in history can perhaps only be explained by anthropologists.

This dissonance is perhaps at its most acute in Ireland, where no empirical proof seems capable of changing people's minds. Israel, just about the only country in the entire region where Arabs are not rising up against their rulers, is also the only country that the Irish chattering classes unite in condemning. Rather pathetic, really. "
 

(0)
Tuesday February 7, 2012, 5:16 am
Alexandra - Kevin Myers point of view is that of a racist. So, if you want to use him as the bar for credibility, then you are just aligning yourself with a well known racist. This is just denying the conditions under which the Gazans live and is as disgusting when people deny the conditions Jews lived in the Warsaw Ghetto. Your viewpoint seems to be the whole world is wrong, and the government of Israel and the hasbara it spews are correct. When that doesn't work, you move on to the "Israel in the sea of enemies" (of which they may have contributed to their status as an enemy) and then inevitably the "antisemitic card" which is also as disgusting as the denial of human rights violations Israel takes part in. All while doing this, you are distorting, manipulating and downright lying about these claims you make and stating how Israel are such humanitarians in respect to their treatment of the Palestinians and in your defense of the IDF as the most moral army in the world. You apply higher standards to the people Israel oppress (these people are called VICTIMS) than you apply to the self described haven, light in the harbour and beacon, state of Israel. You continue to paint them as the little piece of land in the sea of enemies without recognizing the most of the enemies are created through Israel's actions. Since when is a nuclear power armed with the best weaponry technology offers a perpetual victim. So sad and truly pathetic.

Alexandra, who is saying that Hamas, by any stretch is their idea of good governance? Perhaps if people were left with no hope over sixty-odd years, they wouldn't have voted for Hamas. If they had nothing to protest and were met with brutal occupation, maybe they wouldn't feel the need to lob ineffectual rockets over the fence. Denial of Israel's strategic escalation while they are
 

Penelope P. (222)
Tuesday February 7, 2012, 5:48 am
Great
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday February 7, 2012, 9:35 am
Hi Abdessalam. I too have seen this and similar polls. It seems that the people of Europe are way ahead of their politicians. This is people power. One day, the people will prevail on the politicians to stop their support of the Zionist Entity. Already the BDS movement is strong in the UK and Scandinavia. Many ordinary people won't buy, as far as posible, Zionist Entity goods and at least, the UK pushed through an EU directive (which is policed as the Zionists have attempted to cheat) stating that anything produced in a for-Jews-only colony on the WB must be labelled as such. Several countries have stated that they wish to extend this to an outright ban, but the political momentum is not yet there. Sweden will no longer hold joint exercises with the Entity, as will several other of the smaller countries.

And even the leaders have had enough. We have all seen the Sarkozy/Obama clip where it is clear that they hate the Bibi government and the man. Less well known is the Merkel phone call, when Bibi had the effrontery to ring Merkel to criticise her for Germany's vote against the Entity and she replied "How dare you...!".

The Entity is on the way out, but it will thrash around for a few years attempting to destabilise the world in its death throes. As Dayan's widow said, Zionism has run its course.
 

Alexa R. (333)
Tuesday February 7, 2012, 10:20 am
John D: "The Entity is on the way out, but it will thrash around for a few years attempting to destabilise the world in its death throes."

77% Palestinian Arabs: We like Living in Israel best
By Judith A. Klinghoffer

It is difficult to find a more neglected story than the relative satisfaction of Palestinian Arabs living in Israel as is revealed from a recent Harvard Study. (Palestinians Arabs (including those living in greater Jerusalem) constitute 20% of the population). Aware of inconvenient polls which reveal that Palestinian living in Israel are vehemently opposed to becoming citizens of Palestine, the researchers did their best to lower the satisfaction number by phrasing the question so as to receive the most negative number. They asked Palestinian Arab if they would rather live in Israel or in any other country in the world.

77% of the State of Israel’s Arab citizens would rather live in the Jewish state than in any other country in the world, according to a new study titled “Coexistence in Israel”. The study was aimed at examining the relations between Israel’s Jewish and Arab citizens on the State’s 60th anniversary, and included 1,721 respondents.

The findings also revealed that a great majority of Israel’s citizens (73% of the Jews and 94% of the Arabs) want to live in a society in which Arab and Jewish citizens have mutual respect and equal opportunities.

66% percent of Jewish citizens and 84% of Arab citizens believe the Israeli government investments should begin now, and not wait until the end of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians."
 

Stella AWAY W. (258)
Tuesday February 7, 2012, 12:44 pm
To all my friends across all the spheres - thanks for all the comments, whether I agree with your opinion or not!! Each and every one of you are precious, no matter whether you're Israeli or Iranian or Palestinian or Arab or whatever, you're a human being as much valued as every other person on Planet Earth! May peace prevail!!! Yes, we must have mutual respect and consideration for each other, it's the only way to survive on this planet! LIVE AND LET LIVE!!!!!
 

(0)
Tuesday February 7, 2012, 2:42 pm
Carol D. - actually the one thing that us repeatedly stated by Israeli Jews, who actually have made it their point to do a little research is how completely oblivious the average Israeli Jew is. Further, if you understood the conflict a) many of the issues (at least the overtly violations of human rights are in the West Bank and Gaza. Alexandra. living in Tel Aviv, wouldn't be able to see a Plestinisn in the West Bank, even if she wanted to. If she went to visit someone in the settlements, she would drive on a road which is surrounded by the Apartheid Wall (of which on the wall that the Israeli Jews see would be decoratively painted.) The wall obscures anything beyond the Israeli only highway (which is just more land theft from the Palestinians, as the West Bank is Palestinian land). b) Tel Aviv is probably one of the least places to make an observation about discrimination. It is a large city and there are a few of them where due to the size and the demographic composition, you won't necessarily notice the inequality. Go to East Jerusalem, where they are all shoved in like sardines. How about priority funding whereas of 2007, only 4 towns within Israel, but almost 500 Jewish towns received priority funding. Laws regarding marriage for Israeli Palestinians, or Palestinians marrying a Jew. Carol, I wonder what the Germans who were convinced it was snowing when the crematoriums were running thought, it must be snowing because I am so absolute in my head in the sand ideology?
 

(0)
Tuesday February 7, 2012, 4:31 pm
Wonderful Alexandra. You seem to be like a moth to flame. Here you go posting Judith Klinghoffer who is always mentioned in the same sentence as well know racist and something is fishy about death of Pamela Geller's husband of blog fame, Atlas Shrugged, Anne Coulter, and best known librarian turned middle east expert (who Bob claims advises Presidents) and Islamophobic, Robert Spencer. Also Alexandra, Judith extensively criticizes US policy, does that make her some kind of racist? Since criticism of Israeli policy in your eyes is antisemitic, I would think that the same would apply to someone who bashes Israel's rich dutch uncle, the United States. Klinghoffer also claims that Al Gore is essentially lying about climate change. In addition, Alexandra, where do you think Israeli Palestinians would like to live, the place where they were born, or off to Gaza or West Bank where they can be oppressed by the IDF? No one is stating that Israel is the next Saudi Arabia. That is not the point. Making your argument based on it is worse somewhere else doesn't make the it any less democratic when the State of Israel applies different laws to different people based on ethnicity or that they are oppressing a whole population in order to steal their land.

 

Mary P. (157)
Wednesday February 8, 2012, 6:44 am
Jon Hoy, "What I can't understand is the Muslims want to kill all Jews, are they going to kill Christ too since He is King of the Jews. King of Kings, Lord of Lords."

Firstly, My copy and paste : about iranian jews and muslims co-existing in love and peace, falsify and disproves Your statement that
'Muslims want to kill ALL Jews';There would be Mass murders of ALL the iranian Jews, if your
dispicable words held any truth!!

Secondly, Your above words reflects your ignorance about muslims and their relationship with Prophet
Jesus(PBUH). He is one of the most loved, honored and revered messengers of
GOD Almighty( its ALLAH in the Arabic language ; in case you are ignorant of that too). Muslims
Love and respect him immensely and the Holy Quran has many chapters about
his unique birth and how he spoke to the people from his cradle; when
His blessed mother, the Virgin Mary brought him back after his birth.
The Holy Quran even has a chapter named after the Virgin Mary.
So please get your facts before you spew out loathesome words and hate
towards muslims.


Beatrice,
Please show some decency and respect to Prophets of other Abrahamic Religions!!!

FYI, the Beloved Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) preached that ALL TRUE followers,
Of the three abrahamic religions Judaism, Christianity and Islam, are
Related to one another and are brothers and sisters in faith. Its hate
Like yours and fellow haters that cause division and differences amongst the followers of the
Abrahamic Religions. GOD Almighty says on the Day of Judgement, HE will
Sort out the disputes and the things we use to do and say, on earth.
So Beatrice my sister in Faith; you need to watch what you say out of your Ignorance
Of the Truth, as
All Your disrespectful words will be held for judgement on the Day of Resurrection, by the one and same
Creator of All. Wake up !! We all are ONE!!
 

Alexa R. (333)
Wednesday February 8, 2012, 7:36 am
Mary P: "So [Mary P] my sister in Faith; you need to watch what you say out of your Ignorance
Of the Truth, as
All Your disrespectful words will be held for judgement on the Day of Resurrection, by the one and same
Creator of All. Wake up !! We all are ONE!! "
 

Beatrice B. (115)
Wednesday February 8, 2012, 7:57 am
Mary,
From the koran:
Verse 9:123 - "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you."

It should be clear that this verse commands Muslims to wage war on all non-Muslims around them.
Beheading was practiced by the Prophet Muhammad himself during the 7th century period of Islam and by the most Islamic rulers thereafter. The above quote I took from a copy of the quaran itself since a friend is a muslim.
Islam and Dhimmitude: Where Civilizations Collide is a book by historian and scholar of Islamic culture Bat Ye'or
"The ideology of jihad was formulated by Muslim theologians from the eighth century onward. It separates humanity into two hostile blocks — the community of Muslims, and the infidels. According to this ideology, Allah commands the Muslims to conquer the whole world in order to apply Koranic laws. Hence, they have to wage a perpetual war against the infidels who refuse to submit. Its principle is based on the inequality between the community of Allah and the infidels. The first is a superior group, whose mission it is to rule the world. The second must submit."
I think this is accurate proof enough supporting what I've always personally said and felt...that yes it does mention not once but various times throughout the Koran that you must kill the infidel at all costs just because you don't follow in the muslim faith or belive in allah. And islam is the peaceful religion??
Source(s):
www.letusreason.org/Islam12.htm
Critical review of Islam and Dhimmitude: Where Civilizations Collide by the Minaret of Freedom Institute
Islam and Dhimmitude: Where Civilizations Collide
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_D
 

Mary P. (157)
Wednesday February 8, 2012, 7:58 am
Abdessalam, I am so sorry that your comments are being Deleted by Care2. I know
they hate reading the Truth, just like the hatemonger members on Care2. Obviously they
wil love 'those' comments that reflect and share their own hatred for Truth and Unity
Of ALL of mankind irrelevant of country, religion, race and cultures; but little do
these hatemongers here, realize they are being played for fools and are mere
Pawns used in the Zionist Agenda; once their use is over they too will be
Murdered and thrown to the dogs!
 

Mary P. (157)
Wednesday February 8, 2012, 8:20 am
Beatrice , you and your hatefilled friends are like a broken record. You love to
Keep quoting and misinterpreting verses to suit your own distorted sic versions ; no matter how
many times you have been informed about the related incidents during which those verses
were revealed and the proper interpretations for those times!

You know what Beatrice, true believers of judaism, christianity and islam know better than to distort
Revelations of the Abrahamic Religions; where does that leave you!! I
Refuse to waste any further time trying to help remove your spiritual
Blindness and hatred for fellow human beings.

Good luck to you! ferment and become consumed by this ridiculous
Hatred of yours for islam and muslims. Remember the more you spread
Falshood the more masses will investigate and find the Truth and only
You and your fellow haters will be END Losers; answering to GOD Almighty
For your agenda to Divide people and spread hatred amongst them for
One another!
 

Alexa R. (333)
Wednesday February 8, 2012, 8:31 am
Mary P: "once their use is over they too will be
Murdered and thrown to the dogs! "

Which dogs? Who will be thrown to the dogs?
 

Beatrice B. (115)
Wednesday February 8, 2012, 8:44 am
Alex,

From Mary P.'s last comment:

I Refuse to waste any further time trying to help remove your spiritual
Blindness and hatred for fellow human beings.

Goody! No more hate-filled comments from her.
 

Alexa R. (333)
Wednesday February 8, 2012, 9:28 am
Beatrice B, we can but live in hope .. for peace.

As Stella O W, expressed so well on this thread: "Each and every one of you are precious, no matter whether you're Israeli or Iranian or Palestinian or Arab or whatever, you're a human being as much valued as every other person on Planet Earth! May peace prevail!!! Yes, we must have mutual respect and consideration for each other, it's the only way to survive on this planet! LIVE AND LET LIVE!!!!! "
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday February 8, 2012, 10:23 am
Abdessalam. I believe that this is a concerted attack on people who do not support the Zionist line and moreover post against it. They seem to be trying to pick people off one by one in the hope that others will not see the truth and that the deleted person may give up.

How loathsome they are.
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday February 8, 2012, 10:33 am
Alexandra. Why don't you let the Palestinians live without oppression and dispossession then?
 

Alexa R. (333)
Wednesday February 8, 2012, 10:37 am

For you John D:

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_article=960&x_context=7
Why Palestinians Still Live in Refugee Camps? Did the Israelis force Palestinians to stay in the squalid, overcrowded camps? by Alex Safian, PhD
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday February 8, 2012, 10:41 am
Yes, they did. And you know it.
 

Alexa R. (333)
Wednesday February 8, 2012, 10:47 am
I quote from that article John D:
"Palestinians still live in refugee camps, even when the camps are in Palestinian Authority controlled areas, because the PLO opposes and prevents refugee resettlement.

While the PLO has done its best to keep Palestinians in refugee camps, Israel has done its best to move Palestinians out of the camps and into new homes. Israel even started a heavily subsidized “build-your-own-home” program for Palestinian refugees.

...the PLO began threatening to kill any refugee who would move out of the camps. After a few such attacks, the build-your-own-home program died, and that is why there are still Palestinians refugee camps in Gaza."
 

Kit B. (276)
Wednesday February 8, 2012, 11:12 am

First - Please stop yapping about the glorious life of Jews or anyone else in Iran, it just is not true. That is not about Islam, rather the dictatorial policies of the incumbent ruling parties, both religious and political.

Second, seems to me that VERY recently Hezbollah showed Israel that they will not be so easily done in - or that Hezbollah showed Israel they are not always the winners.

Israel needs a positive far seeing and far more benevolent government. This constant itch for war, treating people, even some Israelis like servants to the all powerful, strong fisted sitting government does not serve Israel nor the world at large. I am not going to debate history, Margaret knows it better then most professors, and I have now done more reading about the background then I ever wanted to do, so to just believe that Israel is a victim is just beyond belief or acceptability. Israel still has the opportunity to become the hope and dreams of those who once believed it could be; I wonder if it ever will reach those goals?
 

Betsy Bee (1060)
Wednesday February 8, 2012, 1:36 pm
I came to this thread because I have been told that comments made by my friend, Abdessalam, have been disappearing. I know from experience that his comments are truthful, pertinent and filled with the knowledge he has from living in the area of conflict. His comments have never been in any sense of the word inflammatory.

Some of the individuals who say their comments disappear have decided that Care 2 is a fascist system. Nothing could be further from the truth. Read the petitions authored by Care 2 and the battles Care 2 chooses to fight, and, in your heart, you will know that Care 2 is not a fascist system.

There are two possible ways comments can disappear. The comment could have a great deal of hyperlinks that could trigger the spam filter in the software that creates this form in which we make our comments. Or the comment is made by someone who makes comments loaded with hyperlinks. In that case, the code being intelligent, has remembered that the name of the person posting the comment is associated with code that could be spam. The software quits telling the browser to display the comment, i.e., it disappears.

The other possible cause of a comment disappearing is that it is being flagged as inappropriate. I shudder to think that any members of Care 2 really think that truth can be hidden from others in such a picayune fashion. Seekers of truth will find truth. These efforts to hide truth, if that is what is happening, will only assist in the recognition of truth when truth is found.
 

Betsy Bee (1060)
Wednesday February 8, 2012, 1:54 pm
So sad to see so much bad blood between members of Care 2 -- all of whom are here to do good.
 

(0)
Wednesday February 8, 2012, 10:10 pm
Camera, does not qualify as anything then being another vehicle for thei pro-Israeli lobby. This is what Robert I Friedman stated regarding Camera. "CAMERA, the A.D.L., AIPAC and the rest of the lobby don't want fairness, but bias in their favor. And they are prepared to use McCarthyite tactics, as well as the power and money of pro-Israel PACs, to get whatever Israel wants."[Robert I. Friedman, "The lobby: Jewish political power and American foreign policy", The Nation, June 6, 1987, page 244]

Gershom Gorenberg, of The American Prospect, stated "CAMERA is ready to exempt itself from the demands for accuracy that it aims at the media. And like others engaged in the narrative wars, it does not understand the difference between advocacy and accuracy."

Alexandra - The "Israel Build Your Home Program" of the 70s also known as the Israeli Resettlement program would in effect deny the right of return to the Palestinians.

This is from the UN resolution, 36/146. United Nations Relief and Works Agency
for Palestine Refugees in the Near East

A. Palestine refugees in the Gaza Strip

"Recalling the provisions of paragraph 11 of its resolution 194 (III) of 11 December 1948 and considering that measures to resettle Palestine refugees in the Gaza Strip away from the homes and property from which they were displaced constitute a violation of their inalienable right of return",

"Alarmed by the reports received from the Commissioner-General of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East that the Israeli occupying authorities persist in their policy of demolishing shelters occupied by refugee families on punitive grounds,"

1. Demands that Israel desist from removal and resettlement of Palestine refugees in the Gaza Strip and from destruction of their shelters;

2. Requests the Secretary-General, after consulting with the Commissioner- General of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East, to report to the General Assembly before the opening of its thirty-seventh session on Israel's compliance with paragraph 1 above."

B. Population and refugees displaced since 1967
Recalling Security Council resolution 237 (1967) of 14 June 1967,

Recalling also its resolutions 2252 (ES-V) of 4 July 1967, 2452 A (XXIII) of 19 December 1968, 2535 B (XXIV) of 10 December 1969, 2672 D (XXV) of 8 December 1970, 2792 E (XXVI) of 6 December 1971, 2963 C and D (XXVII) of 13 December 1972, 3089 C (XXVIII) of 7 December 1973, 3331 D (XXIX) of 17 December 1974, 3419 C (XXX) of 8 December 1975, 31/15 D of 23 November 1976, 32/90 E of 13 December 1977, 33/112 F of 18 December 1978, 34/52 E of 23 November 1979, ES-7/2 of 29 July 1980 and 35/13 E of 3 November 1980,

Having considered the report of the Commissioner-General of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East, covering the period from 1 July 1980 to 30 June 1981, and the report of the Secretary-General of 30 September 1981,

1. Reaffirms the inalienable rights of all displaced inhabitants to return to their homes or former places of residence in the territories occupied by Israel since 1967 and declares once more that any attempt to restrict, or to attach conditions to, the free exercise of the right of return by any displaced person is inconsistent with their inalienable rights and inadmissible;

2. Considers any and all agreements embodying any restriction on or condition for the return of the displaced inhabitants as null and void;

3. Deplores the continued refusal of the Israeli authorities to take steps for the return of the displaced inhabitants;

4. Calls once more upon Israel:

(a) To take immediate steps for the return of all displaced inhabitants;

(b) To desist from all measures that obstruct the return of the displaced inhabitants, including measures affecting the physical and demographic structure of the occupied territories;

5. Requests the Secretary-General, after consulting with the Commissioner- General of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East, to report to the General Assembly by the opening of its thirty-seventh session on Israel's compliance with paragraph 4 above.

So, the UN General Assembly calls for Israel to cease and desist removing people from refuge camps as this denies inalienable rights.

Now, if those who wished to partake in this program, and are not pressured nor threatened by any party to take part in or refuse to take part in, wishes to join this program, I certainly think that this is their own basic,fundamental human right to self determination.

The problem is, as always, that the narrative given by Camera, doesn't essentially mesh with the reality. To imply that Israel was building homes for Palestinians out of the goodness of their hearts is hard to believe. It seems that reason Israel initiated this scheme was to have Palestinians give up their right to return. On this point, Israel knows that they in no way can win this fight legally, thus if they make Palestinians give up their right to self determination voluntarily, they won't have to be concerned of the right of return obliterating the Jewish character of Israel.

In 1985, 35 familes whose shelters were located at the Beach Camp were still not housed even though their shelters were demolished in 1982 (pre-condition of the deal). In addition, the state of Israel also demolished gardens and boundary walls within the camp as they claimed it was contradictory to building regulations. So in other words, the condition was demolish where they live first, and then get around to building the house at a later date, sometimes it seems years after the fact, if they even did bother to honour this end of the agreement.

If the State of Israel was doing something for nothing, just because it is the right thing to do, we would all certainly be hearing about his. Every single time a Palestinian life is saved by doctors, it is posted like it is something new for doctor's to save lives. This also again demonstrates the lack of understanding you have when people criticize Israel. No one is criticizing Jewish physicians, nor criticizing the Jewish people, yet you hold their accomplishments as if it is the state of Israel's accomplishment, the shield to hold up against criticism which you find antisemitic. All the while, you are criticizing a whole population on a daily basis making no separation between people, militants and government.
 

(0)
Wednesday February 8, 2012, 10:14 pm
"..the PLO began threatening to kill any refugee who would move out of the camps. After a few such attacks, the build-your-own-home program died, and that is why there are still Palestinians refugee camps in Gaza."

Also untrue. The Build A Home Program collapsed because Israel suspended it after the pressure from the PLO and the condemnation of the UN. I think that many finally didn't buy into it either because all it did was make them homeless, like the 35 people who were homeless for 2 years.
 

Alexa R. (333)
Wednesday February 8, 2012, 11:06 pm
The same is true of the sewage pipeline(As with the Build A Home Program), no co-operation from the PLO with Israel. I quote:

“It’s important for me to reveal whether they’re making political use of water,” Erdan said. “Or maybe it’s a problem of misunderstanding – but that is hard for me to believe.”

Another Environment Ministry official was slightly more optimistic, explaining that one of the 22 villages had, in fact, recently agreed to hook up to the sewage pipe, a deal that would be finalized in a few weeks time. The official said he could not reveal the name of the village at this point.

Yet a third official told the Post he suspected that the local Palestinian governments were unwilling to connect their villages due to “political reasons” – simply “because they don’t want to recognize Israel as a presence in the area.”

http://www.jpost.com/Sci-Tech/Article.aspx?id=256320
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 12:57 am
Hello Alexandra. Now Zionist extremists whose right you support to steal and live on land that is not there own are targetting Christians. You must be so proud:--

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=458445

Settlers spray ‘Death to Christians’ on Jerusalem monastery
Reuters

February 7, 2012

JERUSALEM (Reuters) -- A Jerusalem monastery, built on the spot where tradition holds the tree from which Jesus's cross was made, was defaced with graffiti bearing the hallmarks of Jewish extremists, police said on Tuesday.

"Death to Christians" was daubed in Hebrew on the outer walls of the Monastery of the Cross, an 11th-century fortress-like holy site situated in a valley overlooked by Israel's parliament.

Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said the words "price tag" were also painted overnight by the vandals, who damaged two cars parked outside the monastery in the rare attack on a Christian shrine in Jerusalem.

The slogan, used by Jewish settlers in vandalism attacks on mosques and Palestinian homes in the West Bank, refers to the retribution they say they will exact for any attempt by the Israeli government to curb settlement in the territory.

"I am a priest and I forgive," Father Claudio of the monastery, which is administered by the Greek Orthodox church, told Reuters.

Rosenfeld said police had opened an investigation.

Also on Tuesday, "Death to Arabs" was painted in Hebrew on the wall of a playground of a Jewish-Arab bilingual school in East Jerusalem.

Meanwhile in the West Bank, anti-Muslim slogans were daubed on the walls of several homes in the village of Al-Lubban al-Sharqiya overnight, a Palestinian official said, blaming Jewish settlers.

Since December, five mosques have been vandalized in attacks by suspected Jewish extremists. An ancient mosque in Jerusalem was torched on Dec. 13, and sprayed with the Star of David, "price tag," "Muhammad is a pig" and "A good Arab is a dead Arab" in Hebrew.

Settler attacks in the West Bank against Palestinians increased by more than 50 percent in 2011, according to the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs.

In the West Bank, roughly 4.5 percent of the Palestinian population are Christian, a figure of around 200,000 people. In Israel, around 11 percent of Palestinians are Christian, down from 21 percent of the Palestinian population in 1949, a minority rights group says.
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 1:08 am
http://www.imemc.org/article/61288?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Again, you must be so proud, Alexandra. You talk about benevolent sewage projects - and lie - while I deal with facts. This is a deliberate policy to try to ethnically cleanse Palestinians whose land becomes unusable:--

Israeli settlers dump sewage in Palestinian town

Sunday May 22, 2011 19:07 by Saed Bannoura – IMEMC News

Sewage and wastewater from the Israeli settlement of Ariel, the largest settlement in the West Bank, has polluted the Palestinian village of Bruqin, which sits adjacent to the settlement.

Ariel is constructed on hilltops and its wastewater is frequently directed away from the settlement onto the land of nearby Palestinian villages. This is a common occurrence in a number of Israeli settlements, which are constructed on illegally-seized Palestinian land in the West Bank.

Currently, Israeli settlements and military encampments control 70% of the West Bank’s water, leaving the Palestinian population with little water to drink, and downstream of Israeli settlers’ wastewater runoffs.

Palestinians have also accused a number of Israeli settlements of purposely directing wastewater and raw sewage onto their farmland and homes, in an attempt to contaminate the property and render it uninhabitable, thus forcing the Palestinian residents to leave.

In the current incident, the sewage was directed from Ariel settlement directly toward the land of Bruqin village, and has contaminated farmland and groundwater in an area of several kilometers around the village.

All Israeli settlements are considered illegal under the Fourth Geneva Convention, to which Israel is a signatory, which prohibits the transfer of civilian populations onto land seized by military force. Currently around 500,000 Israeli civilians and military personnel live on Palestinian land in the West Bank and East Jerusalem that was seized by Israeli military force during the 1967 war.

 

Mary P. (157)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 1:40 am
Thank you John for your latest information. I feel sic that there are such vile bigots(zionist regime) living on this
Beautiful planet earth, who can stoop to this low and evil level. Their intention is to rid israel
Of all christians, muslims AND TRUE BELIEVING Jews! Period. They wish to
Pollute the Holy Land of Jerusalem with the followers of Satan and build the
Temple in preparation for the Coming of their King Lucifer (anti christ)!!
 

Alexa R. (333)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 2:33 am
Mary P: "Their intention is to rid israel of all christians, muslims and TRUE BELIEVING Jews!"

And you think this because...?

For me, I rather go with what people say, threaten, do/actions and refrain from judging what their intentions might be...

Isn't there a saying that says "what fills the heart pours out of the mouth"?

 

Past Member (0)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 2:54 am
Oh Alexandra. One can judge intention from deliberate actions and the consequences of these actions. I suppose you're going to pretend that you don't know that when the Palestinians can no longer work their land after its deliberate contamination with sewage that the land is deemed abandoned and can be taken by the Jew-only colony that did the contamination in the first place. This is a deliberate policy. There are dozens of Zionist colonies all over the WB which are not connected to sewage treatment plants. Does the sewage get taken away? Oh no. It is deliberately directed towards Palestinian land and villages.

Utterly vile and disgusting.
 

Rob and Jay B. (121)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 3:50 am
Well, all the Jew-hating Israelaphobes are really ranting as usual! LOL! They are entertaining, if nothing else. John Dhimmi, MM, Abdessalam and our dear Mary P, who only crawls out of her cave to spew Islamist hate toward Jews and Israel.

It just boggles the mind that Islam claims that Israel and Jerusalem belong to it! Yes, it invaded and conquered it and occupied it for centuries, even defiling the Jews' holiest site with their hideous dome of the rock and al aqsa mosque but Israel/Jerusalem was built by Jews.

Where is all the outrage from these anti-semites for the Muslim occupation, invasion of Israel and Jerusalem?

Where is their outrage, since they care so much for the so-called Palestinian people, for the Muslims who do nothing for them but use them to destroy Israel?

Where is their outrage against the Muslim defiling of the holiest site in Judaims by Muslims? You know very well they'd be screaming for Jewish blood if the Jews had invaded and occupied Meccah and built their Temple on top of the pagan Kaba'a and the Grand Mosque, wouldn't they? Of course they would.

And the Muslims would riot worldwide killing every Jew they could find (which Allah has commanded them to do anyway), burning every Torah and synagogue. YET the Israelis have allowed this blasphemy to remain. The kind, peaceful, tolerant Muslims all these hatemongers so promote won't even allow the Jews to come and pray there.

Mary P, tell everyone who you really are and who you work for. She works for the Durban, South African 'Muslim Propaganda Centre'. She's paid to be an Islamist propgandist. She's never uttered anything but Taqiyya - lying to promote Islam in its bid to conquer the whole world and force us all under its primitive, demonic Sharia law.

Everything is a 'hate site' to these Islamists unless it spouts their own warped views.

There never has been a Palestinian state. Ever. The Palestinians are discriminated against by other Arabs and in every Arab/Muslim country they have settled in. Let their Muslim friends feed and support them if they care so much. Where's your outrage over that? Hypocrites!

If Israel is destroyed, as Muslims/Islamist demand, it will become just another backward, unproductive, ignorant, Islamic 'Republic' with a horde of rapidly breeding, uneducated people blinded by Islamic hate towards all non-Muslims. Just look around. There isn't an Islamic occupied land that has freedom or true democracy.

You'll never hear any of these Islamists ever condemn any atrocity committed by Islamists. Ever. When there was the article on here of the Islamists beheading a nine year old boy to force Buddhists out of their own land in SW Thailand so they could establish another glorious Muslim Sharia zone - NONE of these people commented on that. That shows who and what they are really all about.

Disgusting, hateful bigots all.

Israel isn't perfect but compared to any Islamic occupied Entity, it is Nirvana. Look at all the scientific works they have produced compared to nothing produced of worth from any Islamic land.
 

Rob and Jay B. (121)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 4:04 am
Well, here are some quotes from true hate sites:

"If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide."
-- Hassan Nasrallah, Secretary-General of Lebanon's Hezbollah (or "Party of God"), Daily Star, 23 October 2002

"Martyrdom operations - suicide bombings - should be exported outside Palestine. I encourage Palestinians to take suicide bombings worldwide. Don't be shy about it."
-- Hassan Nasrallah, Secretary-General of Lebanon's Hezbollah (or "Party of God"), Washington Times 6 December 2002

"We tell them, in as much as you love life, the Muslim loves death and martyrdom. There is a great difference between he who loves the hereafter and he who loves this world. The Muslim loves death and strives for martyrdom."
-- Mufti Sheikh Ikrimeh Sabri, Chief Palestinian Authority Cleric

"Arabs, rise as one man and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor. God is with you. "
-- Hajj Amin al Husseini on German Nazi radio

"Our thanks go to the late Hitler who wrought, in advance, the vengeance of the Palestinians upon the most despicable villains on the face of the earth. However, we rebuke Hitler for the fact that the vengeance was insufficient."
-- al-Akhbar, Egypt's second largest newspaper

 

Rob and Jay B. (121)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 4:10 am
"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism."
-- Zahir Muhsein, PLO executive committee member

"We are the Palestinian nation. Our fate from Allah is to be the vanguard in the war against the Jews until the resurrection of the dead. As the prophet Mohammed said: 'The resurrection of the dead will not arrive until you will fight the Jews and kill them..."
-- Palestinian Authority Sermon, Palestinian TV, 28 July 2000

"Israel must be wiped off the map."
-- Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Iranian President, 2005

"If they all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide."
-- Hassan Nasrallah, Leader of Hezbollah

"There are 50 million Arabs. What does it matter if we lose 10 million people to kill all the Jews? The price is worth it."
King ibn Saud, Saudi Arabia

"We will never accept any accord with the Infidels (Christians) or the Zionists (Jews) as they are the leeches that must be eliminated and it is Islam's faithful that will exterminate them from Allah's world."
Mahmoud A-Zahar, former Palestinian foreign minister and Hamas member

"The scum of the human race, the rats of the world, the violators of pacts and agreements, the murderers of the prophets, and the offspring of apes and pigs."
Abd Al-Rahman Al-Sudayyis, imam at the Grand Mosque in Mecca, Saudi Arabia, speaking about Jews

This is what all these Israelaphobes and anti-semites here are promoting. Where's their condemnation of this hate? They are part of it.
 

Carola May (20)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 4:30 am
Muslims have been killing Jews since Mohammed had 900 Jewish men and boys beheaded in the Medina marketplace, laughing while he divided up their wealth to enrich himself and his thugs. Then they took their prettiest widows as sex slaves and sold the rest into slavery, keeping the youngest children to raise as Muslims.

Mohammed killed many Jews and told his followers to kill them all. He said his Arab deity, Allah, had turned some of them into apes, pigs and dogs (not documented by any reputable source though - of course this is the same 'prophet' who helped stone a monkey to death for 'adultery')

Nothing has changed. And nothing will. Israel couldn't do anything to placate Islamists;, like those here on this site, except to cease to exist so Muslims can again occupy all of the Jews' ancient homeland and the city they built, Jerusalem.

A little country like Israel surrounded by Islamic hate states bent on destroying it, and you wonder why they are defensive? How would your country react in the same situation with bigger bullies all around stating they are going to wipe your country off the earth and take it away from you?

The constant threats and hate of the surrounding Islamists has driven Israelis to the right, understandably. Israel is still light years ahead of any of the pits of intellectual, scientific darkness that surround it. Not one Muslim ruled country can compare to the freedoms and quality of life that Israelis have, including the Arab Muslim Israelis, more of whom say they wouldn't live in an Arab Palestinian state that would.

How could any caring person condemn Israel and not the fanatical Islamist dictatorship of Iran where they torture, oppress and kill their own people. Such incredible hate, ignorance and hypocrisy here.
 

Alexa R. (333)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 5:22 am
Send a Green Star to Rob and Jay B.
Sending a Green Star is a simple way to say "Thank you"

You cannot currently send a star to Rob and Jay because you have done so within the last week.
 

Alexa R. (333)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 5:23 am
Send a Green Star to Carola May
Sending a Green Star is a simple way to say "Thank you"

You cannot currently send a star to Carola because you have done so within the last week.
 

Carola May (20)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 5:43 am
Why thank you dear Alexandra. Would that everyone here would be as kind and thoughtful as you.
 

Mary P. (157)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 7:57 am
Shame poor Rob and Jay!! The Truth hurt, did it? It must have for you to spew out this much hatred towards Johan, Abdessalam, MM and false stories about me!

Btw the Holy City of Jerusalem is for ALL the followers of ALL 3 Abrahamic
Religions; Jews, christians and muslims (judaism, christianity and islam). That
Is exactly how it was, before the evil Zionist Regime took over and started
Practicing their Apartheid System!!! And Holocaust of the Palestinian People!
 

Alexa R. (333)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 8:01 am
Mary P: "Btw the Holy City of Jerusalem is for ALL the followers of ALL 3 Abrahamic
Religions; Jews, christians and muslims (judaism, christianity and islam)."

Where are they to worship? Altogether in the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem?
 

Mary P. (157)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 8:39 am
Rob and Jay, FYI, fellow care2 muslims and I, don't have to lift a finger to propagate ISLAM;
You and your hatefilled friends are doing an excellent job all by yourselves!!
The more you try to demonise Islam and spread Lies about Islam, the more
People will research for the TRUTH !! And believe me by now thanks to you hatefilled
People, majority of people are able to recognize hate sites and keep away from
Their abhorrent lies!!

I say love and blessings to ALL Creations of GOD Almighty! Even to you and your hatefilled friends!
 

Mary P. (157)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 8:45 am
Alexandra, I am sure you are intelligent enough to answer your rather
Dumb question!
 

Vlasta M. (7)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 9:53 am
There are Jews in Iran, because they are prevented from leaving by the current ayatollah government in order to use the Jews in Islamic propaganda. Ahmdeinijad had even cavorted with Satmar Jews from upstate New York who are imbeciles (because of interbreeding), and who also want to "destroy Zionist entity). Those Jews are against Zionism, because they are still waiting for Messiah to bring them back to Palestine, rather then the world of Zionists. Thus Ahmedinijad desire to wipe "Zionists entity from the map of the world" is the same as those moronic Jews ;-)!

Most Jews HAD to leave Arab countries, when it became clear that Zionists may succeed in establishing a country where Jews will not be molested by non-Jews but can live as free citizens in a democratic country. They were murdered by the Muslim mobs and harassed in those Muslim countries where they lived for many centuries, including the Babylonian Jews who were there 12 centuries before Islam was invented by Mohamed.. , Muslim countries nowadays are not good places to live for ANYBODY, especially under sharia, which is incompatible with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Those Jews refugees from the Arab countries left lots of land and other property when they fled with their lives, and over 50% of the Jewish population of Israel is made up of these Jewish refugees from Arab countries. Therefore, ALL the Arabs from Gaza and West Bank should be given those formerly Jewish properties and let them live among their Arab brothers, who had so fare prevented them to settle in their midst and live normal lives rather then being on UN dole and making lots of babies which aggravates their situation.

There were many such exchanges of large populations in history, including the Muslim/Hindu exchange in 1948 in partition of India, German/polish exchange when large chunk of Germany was made into Poland, Polish/Russin exchange when large portion of Poland was lopped off and given to USSR.

Only in the case of the Second partition of Palestine (first partition was in 1922 when 75% of Palestine was given to Arabs as Transjordan, Jews actually had BOUGHT the land with money mostly saved by poor Jews of Eastern Europe, and the Arabs who fled Israel in 1948 were not settled in areas of Arab countries vacated by the Jews who were resettled in Israel and are contributing to development of Israeli society as a great start-up nations of great agriculture, and technology and science.
 

Vlasta M. (7)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 10:08 am
Hetzbollah, Taliban, Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas are all terrorist organizations whose supremacist ideology of hate of non-Mulsim is very simlar to Nazi Jew-hating supremacist ideology. In addition they are also followers of Koranic and Hadith teachings of apartheid (dhimmitude) pedophilia, polygamy , misogyny and murder for Allahu Akbar, which had become a war cry of all the Islamists when committing their crimes against humanity.

After all, those terrorists at 9/11 did not scream Hail Mary, our Father, Shema israel or OM when they were plunging planes into WTO but Allahu Akbar, which even American born educated Muslims use when murdering Americans, as that Fort Hood Muslim army psychiatrist and murderer of 13 of his colleagues

Terrorism can be stopped ONLY when the Islamists supremacist ideology of hate of non-Muslims is completely defeated just as Nazism was. For that we need to stop caving in to Saudi Arabia Islamists who are financing terrorist groups with the money they get form selling US oil. We must make oil irrelevant in our lilves and they all these medieval evil Islamic fanatics will disappears into the sands of history.

CAIR, OIC ans similar white washers of Islam should stop their deception of the West about Islam and REFORM Islam to make it compatible with the US Constitution and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. President Obama and Hillary Clinton are endangering US, EC and Australia by appeasing Islamists and whilte-washers of Islam, since that only encourages more Jihadists' attacks on our civilization of tolerance and muticulturalism. NO burkhas and Allahu Akbar in my US neighborhood is preferable then having those medieval sharia customs being imposed on me or any other normal person ;-)!
 

Vlasta M. (7)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 10:18 am
Einstein was a Jewish genius just as many other Nobel laureates were Jews and definitely NOT Muslims, who even though 100 times larger in population (1,400 millions of Muslims vs. 14 millions of Jews in the world) had a fraction of the Nobel prices that Jews had obtained. Jewish contribution to culture, science and democratic ideas is extremely important for development of the Western civlization.

Christianity is also based on ethics of Judaism and its teachings, and Jesus and his mother as well as all apostles were also Jewish. Jesus was a Jew and not a Christian and his messages was Jewish, but Paul who initially was persecuting followers of Jesus relaxed some of the Jewish rules to make it easier for non-Jews to become followers of this modified Judaism that is now known as Christianity.

The open-mindedness that is taught by Judaism and Zionism is the main reason why Israel excels in science and technology and had turned deserts into productive land where people can live well, unlike in countries surrounding Israel. Israeli men live longest in the world, since the health care is universal and so is community support for each other, in spite of constant need to go to army practice (until the age of 55) and threat from attacks either by hostile military or by terrorists.

 

Vlasta M. (7)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 10:37 am
Islamic writings of Koran and Hadith are the ROOT causes of terrorism around the world, because they teach supremacist ideology of hate of non-Muslims, apartheid (dhimmitude), pedophilia, polygamy, misogyny, and murder for Allahu Akbar.

UNLESS ISLAM ITSELF REFORMS, there will be NO END TO Islamic terrorism around the world. US, EC and Australian liberal immigration politiies allowing illiterate muslim immigrants from dysfuctional sharia-ruled countries and then demanding to established medieval evil sharia in our midst is very dangerous to our multicultural and enlightened societies. We do not behead and stone "witches", hang gays and lesbians, or whip women who are caught driving or without hijab as they do in Saudi Arabia, which finances various terrorist groups and mosques around the world where hatred against our countries, which had given Muslims shelter. We do not behead or hang people who tell the truth about Mohamed, who was an illiterate pedophile polygamist (married Aisha, one of his 12 wives, when she was 6 and he was 51), and a murderer, responsible for a gruesome murder (by beheading) of 900 Jews from Medina who would not take his muttering guy as their prophet.

Although in Austria, which appears to be appeasing Islamists, a woman was convicted for "blasphemy" because she correctly pointed out the "Mohamed had a thing for young girls", whish is true unless you think that 6 years old is a woman ;-)! There are many liberally minded Jews who are clueless when it comes either to teachings of Islam or what is really happening in Israel and who are used because they project their own humanity onto those who would behead them, just as Islamists in Pakistan did to Daniel Pearl. Chomsky is an example of such Jews and so is Jeremy Ben Ami who has not clue about supremacist ideology of Islam and deception that guys like some on this discussion board are committing by whitewashing Islam and defaming Israel. Read Koran and Hadith as SEE for yourself how vile it is!

Many other "holly" books of variety of religions contained silly and dumb portions, but none is as vile toward non-Muslims are Koran and Hadith are. 65% of Koranis suras and 90% of Hadith that are derogatory to non-Muslims and HATEFUL to Jews and Christians can call for extermination of infidels, should be deleted to make Islam compatible with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and US Constitution.
 

Ge M. (217)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 10:37 am
When we talk about Jewish refugees from the Middle East the silence from people such as Abdesalam and MM is deafening. Nearly 500,000 Jews have been forced from their homes, from lands where the people were Iraqis who happened to be Jewish or Muslim. Along comes extremism and, suddenly, there are less than 2,000 Jews left other than in Iran where less than a quarter of the Jews remain, less than 20,000. There is no right of return for them, they will be killed. One Jew tried it in Libya as the people declared that the country is for all Libyans and he thought that was what was meant. Sadly, only Muslims may be Libyan.

Then we look at the Christians in Egypt. Abdesalam's people, who invaded in 639 AD and attacked the Christian Copts who were already living there.

The Islamic Arab invaders looked at Egypt as a fat cow that they wanted to milk and exploit. Being non-Muslims, all able-bodied adult male Christians, with the exception of clergymen and monks, were required to pay the poll tax of al-jizya (Sura al-tawbah 9: 29).5 “Families who were unable to pay the Islamic taxes were forced to surrender their children in part payment of their jizya."6 The Umayyad ruler of Egypt, Abd-el-Aziz Ibn Marawan (685-705), imposed the poll tax on the clergy and monks as well.7 In order to avoid the financial burden of this tax, Christians of weak faith, converted to Islam, which resulted in declining revenue. In order to compensate for that, the Muslim ruler would increase the tax even more on Christians that refused to abandon their faith and commitment to Christ.8 It reached the point where the Umayyad ruler of Egypt, Abd Allah Ibn Abd-al-Malik (705-709), commanded that a dead Christian Egyptian person was not permitted to be buried until his family paid his tax even if he had died of starvaion.9 In addition to the poll tax, a peasant was required to pay the Kharaj (land tax) for the right to cultivate his land whose ownership was claimed by the Muslim ruler (Sura al-Hashr 59: 6-7).10 Whenever the Muslim ruler needed additional funds to finance his wars, or for any other purpose, he resorted to extortion from the Dhimmi community. Church leaders were often imprisoned and tortured till ransom was paid by their community.11 It goes without saying that heavy taxation, periodic heavy fines, occasional confiscation of Church property impoverished the indigenous Christian communities under Islamic Arab rule, made its daily life harder, and led to corruption and weakness in the Church.12

With a few exceptions, particularly in the Fatimid era, throughout the Islamic rule, Christians were not permitted to build new churches. In fact, the last Umayyad caliph, Marwan II (744-750) pillaged and destroyed many churches and monasteries in Egypt. The caliphs Mahdi (775-785) and Harun al-Rashid (786-809) ordered the destruction of all the churches in the Abbasid empire built after the Islamic conquest.

With the exception of a few years in the reign of al-Hakem B’amr Allah, the period of least persecution was the Fatimid era (972-1171) which was characterized by exceeding justice. It is considered the golden age of indigenous Christianity under Islam in Egypt. Christians were permitted to celebrate their religious feasts publicly (Muslims used to participate in the public processions in Egypt--after all, this was their national heritage), and rebuild their churches. Those that denied their Christian faith under pressure were permitted to return back to the Christian faith without punishment.13 Muslims were allowed to convert to Christianity without punishment.14 Al-Hakem B’amr Allah (996-1021) persecuted the Christians of Egypt and the Levant for nine years in his reign. Christians were not allowed to hold services in their churches. More than 30,000 churches were demolished. He ordered the burning of the Church of the holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem. He killed a great number of priests, and confiscated Church and private Christian property. He threw the Coptic Patriarch Zacharia to hungry lions, but they did not attack him as the Lord protected him. He then let him go. In addition, he imposed humiliating rules for Christians: wearing only black clothes, wearing five pound wooden crosses (for Christian men only), riding donkeys for their transportation instead of horses, etc.15 This was the severest persecution Christianity in Egypt and the Levant suffered under Islamic Arab rule.

I can continue but will go to the modern day uprisings where unarmed peaceful Coptic Christians are run over by military vehicles. Where they are beheaded or have a cross forced into their mouth (seen the gruesome pics - ugh) little girls are raped to force them to convert. In Pakistan they steal the girls and put them into a brothel and demand a ransom and now the Pope has spoken out in concern.....but then Abdesalam knows all this and pretends it doesn't happen. ABDESALAM HAS NEVER CONDEMNED HIS FELLOW EGYPTIANS, he ignores any and all such comments. MARY P HAS NEVER CONDEMNED THIS
APPALLING BEHAVIOUR EITHER.

Then we have Christians being forced out of their countries. It is difficult to obtain clear information but Iraqi Christians are leaving in droves and are being encouraged by both Muslims with guns at their head and the priests who are frightened for their flocks' lives.

So, we have the anti-Semitic brigade ignoring the persecution of non-Muslims in their countries. We also have the anti-Semitic brigade ignoring the persection of the itinerant Arabs in the Muslim dominated countries. We have the hypocricy of Muslims pretending that they worship the G-d of Abraham when in reality it is a moon god and following a hedonistic untrustworthy peadophile. There is no tie with Islam and Jerusalem except for a mosque deliberately built on the site of the second temple where the Muslims come outside and pray with their arses towards it and, when having a temper tantrum, smash the place up. Wow, such a holy site! Then they have desecrated the holy Jewish sites in the land that they control and have asked the UN heritage council to say that only mosques have been there.......

 

Ge M. (217)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 10:42 am
MM have you managed to tell Abdewotsit to stay on the subject? Have you managed it? No, you just like to complain when someone disagrees with you and you are unable to argue back. You know when your warm and caring personality supported the poor little itinerant Arabs who massacred a family and slit the throats of young children including a 3 month old baby. Poor little diddums doesn't like it when I remind her of her appalling and disgusting behaviour but likes to go on about a Muslim basketball player who displayed the charms of his religion, a failure to vist Israel because he was behaving like a spoiled child.
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 1:11 pm
Gilliam M has the nerve to write (after a load of posts about how wicked Muslims allegedly are on a thread about a proposed Zionist Entity massacre of Muslims)

"MM have you managed to tell Abdewotsit to stay on the subject? Have you managed it? "

So, poor, pitiful Gillian, who is going to keep you on the subject? Do you even know what the subject is? Or is your sole subject haterd of Muslims?
 

Kit B. (276)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 1:22 pm

There are many times I disagree with others on many topics. Sometimes it seems necessary to remind others that the purpose of Care2 is not for ripping others to small pieces while trying to force ones opinion on others; rather this is meant to be an open forum for discussions. I for one am very bored and rather heartsick that Gillian has no counter point but to tear and claw at any one that dares to disagree with her own ideas.

What you have managed Gillian, is not to promote Israel, rather you have created a storm of ugliness that has no place in a place of free thinking. You are indeed, one sad, pathetic person. Israel I do hope at some point - before it self destructs, will learn that no country can behave in this way and not expect retaliation. Since you can not seem to behave as a decent and respectful person, then do seek professional help.
 

Abdessalam Diab (154)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 1:37 pm
I think those who talk about freedom of expression must feel ashamed . My comments on this post have been deleted for the third time during the last two hours as I had re posted them thinking that it is just a technical problem on Care2 but apparently I was too optimistic when I believed in their allegation of adopting freedom of speech. How can a UNHRC resolution be deleted ????? Just because it condemns Israel although it also blames Palestinians !!!!!!!!!!
 

Alexa R. (333)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 2:19 pm
Abdessalam: "My comments on this post have been deleted for the third time during the last two hours"

Poor you.
 

Betsy Bee (1060)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 3:10 pm
Read the contents of this thread. Peace will never happen.
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 3:55 pm
Perhaps the pro justice and pro Palestinians should do exactly what the Zionists are doing and arrange to flag the Zionists' posts. Then we can say "poor Alexandra". But we can say that already just because of what she is. No matter, I'm sure people will think of something else.
 

patrica and edw jones (190)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 4:06 pm
Careful, MM is making the odd spelling mistake - good oh. She no longer holds the moral high ground, which she seemed to think was her entitlement. Still regurgitating the same old 'stuff'' - just like Pillow Biter et al. They are so hate ridden about Israel they could be likened to the Ouslem bird that flew in ever decreasing circles to eventually disappear up its own backside. Oy Vey!!!
 

Ge M. (217)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 4:08 pm
Abdeslam still waiting for you to condemn murders, rape, abuse and the forcing out of hundreds of Christians who had lived in their land longer than your people did. Comparatively, the behaviour of a few ignorant people in Israel has absolutely no comparison against the appalling disgusting form of genocide as perpetrated by Muslims in Egypt and across the Middle East and as far beyond as in Africa and Indonesia against millions of non-Muslims.
 

Ge M. (217)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 4:12 pm
Pillow, your ignorance and bigoted life still is appalling. I'm still waiting for an apology for calling me a liar when I proved that I'm not. As an atheist you suck. It is obvious to everyone that you are a Muslim, live in a Muslim dominated country and follow Islam. To continue to deny that is to prove your own stupidity.
 

Betsy Bee (1060)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 4:19 pm
P & E, as usual you have a "sharp tongue" and a dull mind. Bad Combo.. The thread continues to reveal that none of you desire peace. As usual, the Zionist side seems to have more focus on owning the land, the water, the planet, the minds of the people of the world. Oy Vey!!! No surprises.
 

Ge M. (217)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 4:19 pm
Pillow, Abdesalam, Mary P, why don't the Muslim controlled countries allow the itinerant Arabs the same rights as their own people? Why are they treated as third class citizens, denied anything other than menial employment, access to education or proper medical facilities? Why did Kuwait throw them out? Why does Jordan not allow them to live in the land that they were allocated ie Jordan?

I can't ask MM as it is off subject. Now why is it she complains about it but does it on everyone elsel's board such as this one? Why does a person, who claims to be a mother, praise and extol the virtues of child killers, the ones that slit the throat of a 3 month old baby. The ones that blow up school buses, university applicants and clubs where young people gather. The type that hide in a Muslim nursery and attack a Jewish kindergarden? The ones that use snipers to target a toddler in a buggy or slip into a house and stab a baby asleep in her bed?
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 5:16 pm
Gillian M

It might help us all if you could point to any of MM's posts where she supported the things you are alleging she supported, such as baby killers and school bus explosions. Where and when did she do this?
 

(0)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 5:27 pm
Patricia/Edw Jones - Why would I not commit a spelling error or grammatical error when posting. I make typos, I err in grammar when I am writing these. I am writing off the top of my head Patricia, not proofing, not re-reading, just typing away and getting interrupted while posting. When I re-read posts I make, I always find errors, as I am not writing a dissertation and am not going to devote a whole bunch of time postingi on Care2. I noted a grammatical error, as when I was posting ". Not one of us, John, Abdessalem, Mary or myself ", I errred as I am not paying much attention to my what I am typing. If this is the extent of what you can actually prove in what you post about me, I feel pretty good about myself.

You, on the other hand, offer nothing. You don't post any articles, you don't add any substance to the conversation, you have no knowledge about virtually anything the post is about (in other words, you lack of knowledge extends beyond the conflict) and you just re-gurgitate what others have posted. No independent thought, no critical thinking, nothing but bubble posts.

So if finding an error in what I am posting and that is all you can actually prove, really don't diminish me. It hasn't countered the nature of my post, it doesn't make what I posted untrue. It just shows how trivial you are in the great scheme of things.
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 7:09 pm
Hi John,

Here's where Margaret supported murderers:
In her first post here, she said, "Thanks John D. for your comments."
In your first post here, you finished with, "Good for Hebollah. Long may they remain to defend Lebanon. If only the other Arab states had such patriots."
As for murdering babies in particular, it should be noted that Hezbollah, in 2006 and at other times, launched rockets over the border at population-centers, striking totally indiscriminately. If they failed to kill babies,it was not for lack of trying to kill, nor for any care given to avoid killing them.

As for Margaret's support for blowing up school buses, this is something which she supposedly does not understand: Opposition to the enforcement of a law, by the recognized appropriate enforcement-mechanism, constitutes support for its violation. As she opposes the reprisals for strikes against civilians, like when one of Hamas' rockets hit a school bus, she effectively supports such attacks. I say "supposedly" because she has demonstrated herself a liar on this matter before: After continually claiming to oppose all violence, she first refused to answer (on another thread) whether when I asked why she had no problem with Syrian forces firing upon Israeli tractor-drivers, only with Israeli forces returning fire, and then she thanked you (as noted above) for your comments after you came out in wholehearted support of Hezbollah.

Margaret,
Don't bother responding to this, unless you can somehow explain how, despite what I noted above, you don't support terrorism. Until then, I and every other sane person must conclude that you are vile and disgusting. I wish it could be said that those who support the killing of children have no place on Care2, but evidently if you wish to continue posting, nobody will stop you.
 

(0)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 7:17 pm
Rob/Jay - How come when Israeli Jews and Israeli Jewish leaders make hate filled comments or when the settlers not only say horrid things, but particpate in abhorrent acts, it is not attributed to a whole population or it is written off as a misquote, or propaganda, etc. When it is from anyone Arabic or Muslim it is used to paint a population of 1.2 billion people?

I am pretty sure that you grabbed all of these quotes from one of your favorite hatesites have provided nothing to go along with it, such as where was it said, what was it in reference to. You claim to have left the US due to lack of intellectual dialogue, yet post items you cherry picked by scouring the most inflammatory sites you can find. It is evident that you haven't bothered reading a book on the topic, a publication or a journal, just superficial reading of site which have the credibility of the National Enquirer and pass it off as intellect and research. You really think Spain is gaining for your intellectual proweness?

Now, you are taking the quotes you have posted and give ownership to people who "dare" to criticize the Israeli government, have never criticized the Jewish collective and call yourself enlightened. Really Rob/Jay, it seems that you only adovicate for things that only affect you and the state of Israel.

Carola May - The little country you refer to is a nuclear power. The Palestinians are defenseless against the Israeli military and Israel, after being given their own State still want more and steal Palestinian land.

Only the truly ignorant and completely obtuse would try to turn an occupation and land grab into a religous war.

The constant threats? How about the threats Israel makes to countries like Iran. Iran hasn't attacked anyone in 300 years. Iran hasn't occupied anyone else's land in 300 years. Yet, each day we hear how much closer Israel is coming to actually striking Iran. Your logic would make it completely acceptable for Iran to attack Israel. If war can be waged by threats and posturing, then Israel, who actually does attack countries that have not attacked them; can be attacked by Israel. Or is your argument that Israel is superior to every other country, thus the rules that apply to everyone else, don't apply to Israel.

The only hate that has been tossed around on this thread, is the hate the truly self righteous Israeli absolutists spew. That includes you Carola and that includes Rob/Jay and the whole little Klan. (yup, the K is intentional)

How can any caring person, who you all claim to be, ruthlessly attack anyone who is a Muslim or anyone who criticizes government policy and action?

I don't support violence perpetuated against Israel, nor do I support violence perpetuated against the Palestinians. It is just that Israel, perpetuates so much more than anyone else.

Well, Alexandra since most Palestinians don't quite have access to the Holy City of Jerusalem (even the part where they actually still have keys to their houses), I guess ALL doesn't really mean everyone.

Mary: "Alexandra, I am sure you are intelligent enough to answer your rather
Dumb question! " Mary, sometimes you really make me laugh. You have such a wonderful sense of sarcasm.

To demonize a people because of their faith and attribute the actions of dictative rulers who oppress them is really evil. You all seem to judge any Muslim by the actions of dictators who often are oppressing the people you are painting under a very broad brush. When people bring up the settlers who are often extremely violent and abusive towards both the Palestinians and their fellow Jews, you claim they are just extremists. How come when it has to do with Muslim it is embedded in them, but when it is Judaism, it is just "a bad apple". What a bunch of hypocrites.

Viasta - you need to read a history book. Palestine was promised to the indigenous population before any of it was promised to the Zionists. What do you expect when the double dealing, reneging Brits are involved.

You also fail to mention Israeli terrorism from pre-1948 statehood all the way to now and I am not even mentioning state sanctioned terrorism. The violent settler groups are referred to as terrorists from the Israeli security operations.

Abdessalem - Those who talk about freedom of expression and actually flag comments for the purpose of having them removed, just again shows how ineffectual and weak their arguments are. In all of the time I have known you my friend, I have never witnessed you post even one inappropriate comment. In fact, you are much more kind and tolerant than I am. You have always reacted with reason, never with anger or inflammatory rhetoric. For those who flag comments which aren't inappropriate or contrary to the Care2 Code of Conduct, should be ashamed of yourselves. Since you are incapable of countering Abdessalem's posts, you behave like children using underhanded methods. None of you have character, you actions speak to cowardice, dishonour and are no different than those who stayed silent and then played dumb after WWII. Since you can't win an argument based on fact and knowledge, you have to use dirty tricks to get some warped sense of accomplishment.

Alexandra - It is not only insulting to my fellow Jews, but insulting to women who actually do make a difference.

No John D, I disagree. Stooping to their incredibly low level, only makes us look as extremist and idiotic as they do. I'll pass on that one.

Now Gillian's post certainly does deserve flagging. It is unacceptable for anyone to post such slanderous, libelous commentary. Gillian refueses to defend her ideology a reasoned argument, she instead responds by personally attacking people. These comments to John referring to him as pillow are acts of bullying and extremely childish. You call people ignorant, yet cannot defend your own posts with anything other than ad hominem attacks. Each and every time, you personally insult people rather than convey something that justifies your point of view.

Do you get joy in being a bully? Do you really think what you post about me, or what you post about John or Abdessalem or Mary makes you look good to any reasonable person? Do you think that it actually makes you look like your point of view is a reasonable point of view, when all they consist of is denigrating people? Do you actually think that the posts you make actually change people's minds? They never have even one fact to support what you claim. In today's internet age, it only takes about 2 minutes to find credible sources which completely destroys what you claim to be true. You actually are damaging Israel's cause than helping it.
 

Betsy Bee (1060)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 7:59 pm
Margaret, I regret that I cannot give you another green star this week. It is quite clear that your comments are hitting home to some.
 

Mary P. (157)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 10:47 pm
Stephen Brian, " If they failed to kill babies,it was not for lack of trying to kill, nor for any care given to avoid killing them."

Do yourself a favor! For a reality check, go to My PROFILE Page and see
for yourself ,the horrendous pictures of BABIES murdered in the war
On Gaza, by your very 'Saintly' Zionist Israeli Regime and their Satanic
IDF Soldiers!!
 

Alexa R. (333)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 10:48 pm
whoa Margaret.. a whole long comment by you in which you simply bash all Israel supporters and praise all anti-Israel supporters..

Is this your recipe for peace..? Lol

May i suggest that on this thread, instead of simply bashing all Israel supporters, praising all anti-Israel supporters --dialogue? Where posters/commenters share opinions, pose questions to those with opposing views regards this topic, and trying to answer the questions of those with opposing views? Perhaps its too much to ask for being respectful as well in the process?

 

Mary P. (157)
Thursday February 9, 2012, 11:26 pm
Gillian, "Pillow, Abdesalam, Mary P, why don't the Muslim controlled countries allow the itinerant Arabs the same rights as their own people? Why are they...........Why............Why............."

Firstly you forgot to add 'Why does Israel Murder Palestinians daily? Why does Israel.... Why does
Israel.....' I could go on and on.

My answer is Why don't you go and ask them yourself ??

I have admitted 'wrong is wrong, irrelevant of country, religion, race and culture' to you
on other threads; YET you ask the same questions repeatedly!! What
Part of my answer don't you understand? Perhaps you need some lessons
In english!

The only hatred I read on this thread, for the jewish collective , are the quotes that
You hatefilled people put out here YOURSELVES, mostly from hate
Sites against jews! Please learn to recognise ALL hate sites, against all races, religions
Countries, and cultures, and keep away from them, to avoid hatred for your fellow human beings!
 

Alexa R. (333)
Friday February 10, 2012, 1:01 am
Mary P: "Firstly you forgot to add 'Why does Israel Murder Palestinians daily? Why does Israel.... Why does
Israel.....' I could go on and on. "

For you Mary P, in answer to your question (repeated question):

I quote Margaret M (from another care2 thread, link given below): "Israel massacres plenty of babies, the US is guilty of the same behaviour. Sadly, many countries do. "

http://www.care2.com/news/member/497934260/3094189
 

Alexa R. (333)
Friday February 10, 2012, 1:05 am
Killing and murder the evil of war and is the reason why Israel so desires peace ..

I too desire peace with all my heart, soul, mind, body -- all I do and say is working towards accomplishing this desire ..
 

Alexa R. (333)
Friday February 10, 2012, 1:07 am
Oops, left out the 'is' ..

Killing and murder is the evil of war and is the reason why Israel so desires peace ..

I too desire peace with all my heart, soul, mind, body -- all I do and say is working towards accomplishing this desire ..
 

Past Member (0)
Friday February 10, 2012, 1:12 am
What's youir point Alexandra? The USI and the Zionist Entity do murdder plenty of babies. Are you trying to say trhey don't?
 

Past Member (0)
Friday February 10, 2012, 1:35 am
Stephen Brian.

Did you not read my words or are you, as usual, trying to put some construed meaning on them? You write:--


Here's where Margaret supported murderers:
In her first post here, she said, "Thanks John D. for your comments."
In your first post here, you finished with, "Good for Hebollah. Long may they remain to defend Lebanon. If only the other Arab states had such patriots."

So what is wrong with that, defending one's own country against an evil and mightily armed invader? Why does that make them "murderers"? Does being a patriot make you a "murderer? Or is the killing of invaders "murder"? You are, as usual, writing nonsense.

As for the Hezbollah killing babies or civilians indiscriminately, they do not. It is the Zionist Entity which does this, according to HRW. In addition, it has been conclusively shown in a myriad of tomes that the Hezbollah has targetted precisely Zionist military targets.

http://www.jkcook.net/Articles2/0269.htm

Israel, Not Hizbullah, is Putting Civilians in Danger on Both Sides of the Border



War of Media Deception



By JONATHAN COOK in Nazareth

Counterpunch

August 3, 2006



Here are some interesting points raised this week by a leading commentator and published in a respected daily newspaper: "The Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert embeds his soldiers in Israeli communities, next to schools, beside hospitals, close to welfare centres, ensuring that any Israeli target is also a civilian target. This is the practice the UN's Jan Egeland had in mind when he lambasted Israel's 'cowardly blending ... among women and children'. It may be cowardly, but in the new warfare it also makes macabre sense. For this is a propaganda war as much as a shooting one, and in such a conflict to lose civilians on your own side represents a kind of victory."



You probably did not read far before realising that I had switched "Israel" for "Hizbullah" and "Ehud Olmert" for "Hassan Nasrallah". The paragraph was taken from an opinion piece by Jonathan Freedland published in Britain's Guardian newspaper on 2 August. My attempt at deception was futile because no one seems to seriously believe that criticisms of the kind expressed above can be levelled against Israel.



Freedland, like most commentators in our media, assumes that Hizbullah is using the Lebanese population as "human shields", hiding its fighters, arsenals and rocket launchers inside civilian areas. "Cowardly" behaviour rather than the nature of Israel's air strikes, in his view, explains the spiralling death toll among Lebanese civilians. This perception of Hizbullah's tactics grows more common by the day, even though it flies in the face of the research of independent observers in Lebanon such as Human Rights Watch.



Explaining the findings of its latest report, HRW's executive director, Kenneth Roth, blames Israel for targeting civilians indiscriminately in Lebanon. "The pattern of attacks shows the Israeli military's disturbing disregard for the lives of Lebanese civilians. Our research shows that Israel's claim that Hezbollah [sic] fighters are hiding among civilians does not explain, let alone justify, Israel's indiscriminate warfare."



HRW has analysed the casualty figures from two dozen Israeli air strikes and found that more than 40 per cent of the dead are children: 63 out of 153 fatalities. Conservatively, HRW puts the civilian death toll so far at over 500. Lebanese hospital records suggest the figure is now well over 750, with potentially many more bodies yet to be excavated from the rubble of buildings obliterated by Israeli attacks.



Giving the lie to the "human shields" theory, HRW says its researchers "found numerous cases in which the IDF [Israeli army] launched artillery and air attacks with limited or dubious military objectives but excessive civilian cost. In many cases, Israeli forces struck an area with no apparent military target. In some instances, Israeli forces appear to have deliberately targeted civilians."



In fact, of the 24 incidents they document, HRW researchers could find no evidence that Hizbullah was operating in or near the areas that were attacked by the Israeli air force. Roth states: "The image that Israel has promoted of such [human] shielding as the cause of so high a civilian death toll is wrong. In the many cases of civilian deaths examined by Human Rights Watch, the location of Hezbollah troops and arms had nothing to do with the deaths because there was no Hezbollah around."



The impression that Hizbullah is using civilians as human shields has been reinforced, according to HRW, by official Israeli statements that have "blurred the distinction between civilians and combatants, arguing that only people associated with Hezbollah remain in southern Lebanon, so all are legitimate targets of attack."



Freedland makes a similar point. Echoing comments by the UN's Jan Egeland, he says Hizbullah fighters are "cowardly blending" with Lebanon's civilian population. It is difficult to know what to make of this observation. If Freedland means that Hizbullah fighters come from Lebanese towns and villages and have families living there whom they visit and live among, he is right. But exactly the same can be said of Israel and its soldiers, who return from the battlefront (in this case inside Lebanon, as they are now an invading army) to live with parents or spouses in Israeli communities. Armed and uniformed soldiers can be seen all over Israel, sitting in trains, queuing in banks, waiting with civilians at bus stops. Does that mean they are "cowardly blending' with Israel's civilian population?



Egeland and Freedland's criticism seems to amount to little more than blaming Hizbullah fighters for not standing in open fields waiting to be picked off by Israeli tanks and war planes. That, presumably, would be brave. But in reality no army fights in this way, and Hizbullah can hardly be criticised for using the only strategic defences it has: its underground bunkers and the crumbling fortifications of Lebanese villages ruined by Israeli pounding. An army defending itself from invasion has to make the most of whatever protection it can find -- as long as it does not intentionally put civilians at risk. But HRW's research shows convincingly that Hizbullah is not doing this.



So if Israeli officials have been deceiving us about what has been occurring inside Lebanon, have they also been misleading us about Hizbullah's rocket attacks on Israel? Should we take at face value government and army statements that Hizbullah's strikes into Israel are targeting civilians indiscriminately, or do they need more serious investigation?



Although we should not romanticise Hizbullah, equally we should not be quick to demonise it either -- unless there is convincing evidence suggesting it has been firing on civilian targets. The problem is that Israel has been abusing very successfully its military censorship rules governing both its domestic media and visiting foreign journalists to prevent meaningful discussion of what Hizbullah has been trying to hit inside Israel.



I live in northern Israel in the Arab city of Nazareth. A week into the war we were hit by Hizbullah rockets that killed two young brothers. The attack, it was widely claimed, was proof either that Hizbullah was indiscriminately targeting civilians (so indiscriminately, the argument went, that it was hitting fellow Arabs) or that the Shiite militia was so committed to a fanatical war against the Judeo-Christian world that it was happy to kill Nazareth's Christian Arabs too. The latter claim could be easily dismissed: it depended both on a "clash of civilisations" philosophy not shared by Hizbullah and on the mistaken assumption that Nazareth is a Christian city, when in fact, as is well-known to Hizbullah, Nazareth has a convincing Muslim majority.



But to anyone living in Nazareth, it was clear the rocket attack on the city was not indiscriminate either. It was a mistake -- something Nasrallah quickly confirmed in one of his televised speeches. The real target of the strike was known to Nazarenes: close by the city are a military weapons factory and a large military camp. Hizbullah knows the locations of these military targets because this year, as was widely reported in the Israeli media at the time, it managed to fly an unmanned drone over the Galilee photographing the area in detail -- employing the same spying techniques used for many years by Israel against Lebanon.



One of Hizbullah's first rocket attacks after the outbreak of hostilities -- after Israel went on the bombing offensive by blitzing targets across Lebanon -- was on a kibbutz overlooking the border with Lebanon. Some foreign correspondents noted at the time (though given Israel's press censorship laws I cannot confirm) that the rocket strike targeted a top-secret military traffic control centre built into the Galilee's hills.



There are hundreds of similar military installations next to or inside Israel's northern communities. Some distance from Nazareth, for example, Israel has built a large weapons factory virtually on top of an Arab town -- so close to it, in fact, that the factory's perimeter fence is only a few metres from the main building of the local junior school. There have been reports of rockets landing close to that Arab community.



How these kind of attacks are being unfairly presented in the Israeli and foreign media was highlighted recently when it was widely reported that a Hizbullah rocket had landed "near a hospital" in a named Israeli city, not the first time that such a claim has been made over the past few weeks. I cannot name the city, again because of Israel's press censorship laws and because I also want to point out that very "near" that hospital is an army camp. The media suggested that Hizbullah was trying to hit the hospital, but it is also more than possible it was trying to strike -- and may have struck -- the army camp.



Israel's military censorship laws are therefore allowing officials to misrepresent, unchallenged, any attack by Hizbullah as an indiscriminate strike against civilian targets.



Audiences ought to be alerted to this danger by their media. Any reports touching on "security matters" are supposed to be submitted to the country's military censor, but few media are pointing this out in their reporting. Most justify this deception to themselves on the grounds that in practice they never run their reports by the censor as it would delay publication.



Instead, they avoid problems with the military censor either by self-censoring their reporting on security issues or by relying on what has already been published in the Israeli media on the assumption that in these ways they are unlikely to contravene the rules.



An email memo, written by a senior BBC editor and leaked more than a week ago, discusses the growing restrictions being placed on the organisation's reporters in Israel. It hints at some of the problems noted above, observing that "the more general we are, the free-er hand we have; more specific and it becomes increasingly tricky." The editor says the channel will notify viewers of these restrictions in "the narrative of the story". "The teams on the ground will make clear what they can and cannot say -- and if necessary make clear that we're operating under reporting restrictions." In practice, however, BBC correspondents, like most of their media colleagues, rarely alert us to the fact they are operating under censorship, and self-censorship, or that they cannot give us the full picture of what is happening.



Because of this, commentators like Freedland are drawing conclusions that cannot be sustained by the available evidence. He notes in his article that "this is a propaganda war as much as a shooting one". He is right, but does not seem to know who is really winning the propaganda offensive.
 

Mary P. (157)
Friday February 10, 2012, 2:33 am
Alexandra, I am NOT asking those 'questions' neither have I asked the 'why' before!! I am
Merely stating that Gillian forgot to include israel in her questions of 'Why'. Poor alexandra
Have to be spoonfed with understanding comments properly!!
 

(0)
Friday February 10, 2012, 4:55 am
Stephen - your whole post is a complete waste of time. Israel actually went into Lebanon and personally attended to making sure they murdered men, women and children. They also, through Sharon, supported the annihation of Palestinian refugees in the Sabra/Shatila massacre.

OPPOSITION OF THE ENFORCEMENT OF LAW? You have to be kidding. Palestinians peacefully resisting Israel's occupation every Friday in Bi'lin and shooting at them with tear gas cannisters, live and rubber bullets, beating them and arbitrarily arresting them ON THEIR OWN LAND is opposition to the enforcement of law? You now are claiming to support law, whereas completely dismiss it when it is inconvenient to Israel. In addition, the laws you are supporting are actually war crimes. The occupier cannot apply one set of laws and another to the population they favor. Stephen, self described legal eagle decides what is relevant and what is not.

Absolute crap Stephen. I always answer all of your nonsense, which goes all over the place, jumping from one topic to another when you cannot support your arguments. When your posts are demolished and your claim of fact revealed to be a figment of your Zionist imagination, you dismiss the whole argument you have spent the majority of the time defending.

I did respond to you specifically in the thread. You are a sham, why don't you go back to the scores of your internet "meeting someone" pages which are so littered all over the internet. How can anyone take anything you say seriously.

Don't you dare tell me what to respond to and what not to on an intenet forum, you deluded, arrogant piece of work. Never have supported terrorism Stephen. You, on the other hand, apologist extraordinaire, support the oppression of people based on their ethnic and racial background, support violence through justification of self defense, even when no imminent threat exists, and condemn a whole population based on stereotypical generalization. That is definitely supporting more than peace.

You want to call me a liar, then provide the specific lie. You are a liar, even when corrected and admitting to an error, you then claim the same misinformation in another thread. To justify any violent action against a civilian population based on race (which you do in your posts supporting Israel's behavior) is racist and downright ignorant.

Alexandra - I don't bash all Israeli supporters, I bash people like you, who rather than actually learning about something before defending it, defend Israel based on some demented romantic vision of Israel. I bash people who equate criticism of the actions of a State based on Zionism, not Judaism to antisemism. I bash people who claim to speak for the Jewish people and whose tenuous connection to Judaism is not based on their ties to history, but is based on a conscious choice to convert to the religious ideology of Judaism and then dare to speak on behalf of a state who claims to speak for every Jew.

Suggestions by you Alexandra? I don't think so. You say very silent when Gillian is bashing and attacking people with the downright disgusting ad hominem attacks anyone can make based on opposition to her extremely limited, stereotypical racist ideology. You have no problem being very quiet regarding her posts. If someone who agrees with me, yet makes blanket assumptions and racist commentary, I have no problem calling them on it, friend or no friend. You ask me to be respectful to people who have made claims which are slanderous and libelous? The same people you support? You must be out of your gourd. Thus far, in this thread, we have Gillian accusing me again, with no support for her accusations such as "warm and caring personality supported the poor little itinerant Arabs who massacred a family and slit the throats of young children including a 3 month old baby". Who again, will not post anything to support her accusations, except "because she said so". When have a ever made any support for the people who massacred a family Alexandra? Yet, you support these accusations through your silence. We then have perpetually clueless, Patricia/Edw Jones decide to join Gillian in their bashing of John and Abdessalem. What has Abdessalem done, except be the dignified man he has always been on Care2?

To Gillian - under the definition of ignorant and bigoted in any dictionary there lies Gillian's picture. And now we have Stephen B. which I believe stands for bs, joins Gillian in this because I dare to ensure I know the facts, am capable of defending my position and because I repeatedly call him on his complete lack of knowledge or understand regarding the conflict.

You say nothing against their behaviour, yet have the gall to tell me to be respectful and courteous. How much more passive aggressive can you get? What is your point of quoting me from another thread and conveniently failing to quote the portion to what I was responding to? Israel has murdered children, the US has murdered children, Iraq has murdered children, virtually all states at one time or another have murdered children. To insinuate that the Palestinians to do so, but claim self described country of morality don't is untrue and idiotic.

"Killing and murder the evil of war and is the reason why Israel so desires peace .. " How, Alexandra, by causing virtually every war they have been involved in? Instead of peace through land, peace through war? This is such duplicity and hypocritical. Anyone else who does it is a terrorism, but when Israel does it, it is on some moral authority? Give me a break Alexandra. Why don't you do something useful and defend your fellow Jews who are being attacked by the lovely extremist factions of the settlement movement.

Stephen, haven't you realized how hypocritical you are? When anyone else does it in defense of their own country it is terrorism, when Israel does it, they are saving the world. Completely useless outside of the study of physics.

Mary - Alexandra play acts that she is the stereotypical scatter brained woman incapable of any independent thought or critical thinking while clearly supporting racist commentary against fellow Jews by none other than Ari Sharon. This passive aggressive trait really needs treatment.
 

Abdessalam Diab (154)
Friday February 10, 2012, 6:02 am
Gillian says that she is still waiting to see me condemn all killing,rape......etc. My answer is very simple : I certainly condemn any criminal act from any person or group of people against others and that is why I am defending the Palestinians rights and condemning the inhuman acts committed by Zionists.I think she has forgotten that she sent me a green star a week ago for condemning the killing of an Afghan women.
 

Alexa R. (333)
Friday February 10, 2012, 6:23 am
I quote: "The BDS movement is mistaken in its focus on a single party, Israel, as the impediment to peace. Israel has repeatedly expressed its willingness to live peacefully alongside a Palestinian state. Since the rebirth of a Jewish state in 1948, Israel's democratic governments from across the political spectrum have repeatedly demonstrated an intent to make painful compromises in the interest of a peaceful resolution of this conflict, including recognition of a Palestinian Arab homeland for those descended from Arabs displaced during prior conflicts.

Reciprocal recognition of Israel as the homeland of the Jews has yet to occur. Many Jewish Israelis, like their Arab neighbors, are descended from families native to the Middle East, but displaced by conflict.[4] Prior to Israel's independence, the area's Jews were often considered to be "Palestinians".[5]

BDS is contrary to the search for peace since it represents a form of misguided economic warfare. It is directly contrary to decades of agreements between Israeli and Arab Palestinians, in which both sides pledged to negotiate a peaceful settlement and committed to a two state solution.

The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) lists well over a hundred border disputes between nations.[6]Israel's dispute with the Arabs over eventual boundaries is not unique, nor is this conflict the most violent. Focusing on Israel for punitive action is unjustified and counterproductive.

SPME urges those committed to peace and justice for the people of a region which has had too much war and violence to join with us in rejecting the politics of hatred that the BDS movement represents."

For Further Information Contact:

Judith S. Jacobson, Columbia University
Co-President Pro Tem, Vice President, Internal Relations, SPME

Stanley Dubinsky, University of South Carolina
Co-President Pro Tem, Vice President, External Relations, SPME

Asaf Romirowsky, Acting Executive Director, SPME

[1]Academically affiliated readers are invited to contact SPME to learn how they can join us in the search for Middle East peace at http://spme.net/

[4]http://www.forward.com/articles/126560/

[5]http://goo.gl/dhhNV

[6]https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2070.html
 

Alexa R. (333)
Friday February 10, 2012, 7:03 am

I quote from Wikipedia: "According to views such as Conflict theory or Marxist philosophy, so-called passive-aggressive behavior could be a rational response to demands that may simply be disagreed with, for example if intended to exploit the individual, and yet where there is no possible or legitimate means of active resistance. It has also been noted that Passive resistance has a dignified history, including Irish dissidents, Quakers and Gandhi. The passive-aggressive concept was developed by the US military to describe soldiers who would not obey instructions happily. Its use as a diagnosis has also been questioned in clinical and social terms.""
 

Past Member (0)
Friday February 10, 2012, 7:21 am
Oh dear. Alexandra asks us to accept an opinion from a group funded by "Solelim Fund of The UJA Federation".

Now, I wonder why they would be against the wonderful (and gaining strength) BDS movement? Really, she is so transparent.

http://ejewishphilanthropy.com/circle-power/
 

Abdessalam Diab (154)
Friday February 10, 2012, 7:51 am
Alexandra said "Abdessalam: "My comments on this post have been deleted for the third time during the last two hours"

Poor you."

Sorry Alexandra, I am not poor at all.You don't know me . I never give up . I defended and will continue to defend the right of the Palestinians and spread the word against Zionism as long as I am alive despite the ignorance of some people.In this path I am guided by one verse of the Holy Quran that reads " The true servants of the Most Merciful are those who behave gently and with humility on earth, and whenever the foolish quarrel with them, they reply with [words of] peace."
(al-Furqan 25: 63)
Following these instruction I tell you " Peace ....Peace ...Peace " May Allah help you recover from the hatred your heart is filled of and give you the eyesight and courage to see the truth and nothing but the truth. Peace...Peace...Peace
 

Alexa R. (333)
Friday February 10, 2012, 7:57 am
Same back to you Abdessalam.
 

Past Member (0)
Friday February 10, 2012, 10:44 am
You're fighting a lost cause Alexandra. Have a look at this, which shows the strength of the Palestinian movement and BDS in the UK.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/may/29/david-cameron-resigns-patron-jnf

"Sofiah Macleod of the UK-based Stop the JNF Campaign said the organisation's lobbying had led Cameron to withdraw. "There has been a change in public opinion and awareness about Israel's behaviour and there was specific pressure on [Cameron] to step down from the JNF," she said. "We believe he has stepped down as a result of this political pressure. Given the establishment support that the JNF has received, it's not a decision he will have taken lightly."

The Stop the JNF Campaign wrote an open letter to the prime minister this month, claiming the JNF had committed war crimes against the Palestinian people and urging his resignation as patron.

An early day motion tabled in the Commons in March regretted Cameron was a JNF patron and said revoking its charitable status should be considered. However, Downing St insisted Cameron's resignation was part of a wider review.

Following the formation of the coalition government, a review was undertaken of all the organisations and charities the prime minister was associated with. As a result of this review, the prime minister stepped down from a number of charities – this included the JNF," it said in a statement.

Traditionally, the leaders of the three main political parties have become patrons of the JNF. However, Cameron's resignation means that none of the current three leaders are JNF patrons.

The Palestine Solidarity Campaign welcomed the decision. "It reflects the fact it is now impossible for any serious party leader to lend public support to racism," campaign director, Sarah Colborne, said in a statement.

"The JNF plays a critical role in facilitating the continued dispossession and suffering of Palestinians.""
 

(0)
Friday February 10, 2012, 5:30 pm
"I quote from Wikipedia: "According to views such as Conflict theory or Marxist philosophy, so-called passive-aggressive behavior could be a rational response to demands that may simply be disagreed with, for example if intended to exploit the individual, and yet where there is no possible or legitimate means of active resistance. It has also been noted that Passive resistance has a dignified history, including Irish dissidents, Quakers and Gandhi. The passive-aggressive concept was developed by the US military to describe soldiers who would not obey instructions happily. Its use as a diagnosis has also been questioned in clinical and social terms."

And to boot, from Wikipedia. Did you actually understand this quote Alexandra? You believe that passive aggressive traits are noble and find the clinical definition in Wiki. Now I have heard it all. I
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Friday February 10, 2012, 11:54 pm
Hi Mary,

Yes, in war, kids die. The way wars are fought today that is practically inevitable. The issue is this: Hostile cities are death for soldiers to walk into. For an idea of how dangerous it can be to approach even a single building, check #5 (right at the top) on this:
http://www.cracked.com/article_18550_5-true-war-stories-that-put-every-action-movie-to-shame.html
Now, that is an extreme case, but evidently not implausible. For something more expected, consider that the Allies used 1.5 million soldiers to take Berlin intact. That's 1,500,000. As in almost half a million more troops than are in the U.S. Army Corps (not counting National Guard auxiliaries). Yes, I know a lot more Germans defended the city than there are Palestinian combatants. The problem is that without knowing where the combatants are, any attacking army needs force-concentration everywhere, as though the defending forces saturated the city, or they will lose a lot of people and accomplish nothing. How do modern armies get around this? They use bombs and artillery to flatten the parts of the city that they are about to hit with tanks and infantry. That's why forces like the IDF go to serious effort only to hit the locations where they are sure there are terrorists or terrorist-supporting infrastructure (weapons caches, etc.) If international law regarding war is respected by both sides, relatively few civilians will die. Unfortunately, Palestinian militias mix terrorist infrastructure with civilian. The IDF can target only terrorists all it wants, but if they are within the bombs' or shells' blast-radius of children, three guesses what happens to those kids when the building gets flattened.

It used to be much worse: Before computerized targeting, bombs were extremely inaccurate weapons. Ever heard of the Dresden firestorm? That's what happens when you attack weapons-factories in the middle of a city with bombs that have close to a 50/50 chance of landing within a mile or their targets. You need to drop so many bombs to hit it that the casualty-numbers exceed those of the nuclear strikes.

Hi John,
No, patriotism (even if Hezbollah had any) and the objective of defending one's country's land does not make people murderers. The strategy of launching imprecise rockets into towns to place pressure on an enemy to cease an attack does. You cited an article by Jonathan Cook. Here is Human Rights Watch's response:
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2006/09/21/hezbollahs-rockets-and-civilian-casualties
As Hezbollah does not use clear uniforms, I suspect Israel had no way of telling militants from civilians in those five cases. When Cook says "24 cases" and that those were all the ones studied by HRW, and HRW comes out and says "5" and that was a tiny minority, it's time to stop paying any attention to Cook.

Margaret,
Sabra and Shatila? I would call you a moron, but at this point that would be too charitable. I think I've already explained to you why Sharon could not have saved those people. For reference, read my response to Mary. Now consider that not only did Sharon not have the available forces, but he also did not expect the massacre, and so had not plan of attack. Then consider that your demand is that a field-commander make the policy-level decision of moving against an ally in war. How do you feel when a police officer arbitrarily arrests somebody because he doesn't like something, when he makes up the law? That is usurpation of authority, and exactly what you demand, after the fact, that Sharon should have done in a suicidal manner.

You have repeatedly called every Israeli reprisal a "war-crime". They're not. Reprisals are exactly how the Geneva Conventions are supposed to be enforced. If you don't like it, come up with something else that works and take it to every signatory.

I know you responded to my question about the tractors, but you never answered the question. Here's the thread. http://www.care2.com/news/member/456093751/3057333
Now tell me where you answered my question about how you would have responded if Israelis shot at a Syrian tractor-driver. I get that in principle you pretend not to support terrorism. In practice, absolute opposition to the enforcement-mechanism of the law against it is support. This is an old lesson, and not one I ever expect you to learn.

As noted elsewhere, if Israel's opponents lay down arms, there will be peace. If Israel does so, there will be genocide. Supporting peace and not genocide is not hypocrisy. It's sanity, something which one could charitably assume that you lack.

I recommended that you not respond because I correctly expected you to just make a further fool of yourself. You chose to ignore my advice. Too bad.
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Saturday February 11, 2012, 12:23 am
Hi Alexandra,

Don't worry about "losing" when it comes to the BDS movement. In fact, I encourage it, and plan to start a letter-writing campaign to the Israeli government to cooperate with all boycotts. Let those bigots boycott all Israeli products and everything that sends money to Israel all the way up the supply-chain. Israeli patents show up all over modern electronics, so if Israel cooperates, it can require clauses into distribution-contracts forbidding sale of nearly any modern technology to organizations which endorse BDS and their executives. Let them boycott Israeli-patented life-saving medical devices. I wonder how long their convictions will last as they die.

Do they like Apple? http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=1000719007&fid=1725
How about Dell? http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=1000632489&fid=1725
The companies themselves aren't Israeli, but the patents would originate from Israel, and then they would be integrated into all the new computers, etc.
Don't worry: There's always Microsoft ...
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1023955/microsoft-r-amp-d-facility-israel ... or not.

Absolutely, let them endorse BDS. Suckers.
 

Mary P. (157)
Saturday February 11, 2012, 12:58 am
Stephen Brian, "Yes, in war, kids die."

How can you even dare to call it 'WAR'!! A 'War' is NOT fought with
One side having a Proper ARMY with Nuclear Nukes and hoardes of the latest weapons while
The other side is restricted to having sticks, stones and homemade rockets to
Fight with!!!

THAT IS NOT WAR!!! That is an ONSLAUGHT on mankind!!
That is a MASSACRE of innocent human beings!!
That is a Baseless DESTRUCTION of human lives!!
That is the Zionist Israeli Regime playing GOD!!
That is a CRIME against Humanity!! Period!!


Here is something for you and your hatefilled friends to read:

Israel Doesn't Need 'Gas Chambers' To Commit Genocide
By R. Zuercher

rzurcher@rd.com
12-11-4

 

Israeli genocide against the Palestinians is paid for with our money and now Our blood.

 

Why would someone hate us so much, that they would kill themselves to kill us?

 

Because our government gives billions of dollars in cash and military supplies for Israel to support the following:

 

Israel practices strict racial segregation against all non-Jews, while Jewish groups and the Jewish media in the US demand forced racial integration in America.

 

Israeli courts have reaffirmed the use of torture against all non-Jews, while Jewish groups and the Jewish media demand special rights for minorities in America.

 

Israel uses collective punishment against all non-Jews, while Jewish groups and the Jewish media call any use of race in America "racism" and "racial profiling."

 

Israel uses mass deportations against all non-Jews, and shoots anyone crossing it's borders, while Jewish groups and the Jewish media demand open borders and amnesty for illegal aliens in America.

 

Israel practices ethnic cleansing of all non-Jews in Israel, while Jewish groups and the Jewish media in America demand sanctions, bombings and the UN invasion of Serbia and Iraq.

 

Israel invades its neighbors in violation of numerous UN Resolutions, while no "Smart Bombs" fall on Israeli cities to "restore democracy."

 

Israel denies even the most basic human rights to non-Jews, and is responsible for the mass murder of tens of thousands of Palestinians, while Jewish groups and the Jewish media in America call the systematic extermination of a people, "Genocide."

 

Israel doesn't need "gas chambers" to commit Genocide.

 

JUST YOUR MONEY!

 

R. Zuercher

rzurcher@rd.com

__________________________________

 

 

Professor F. Littell has said: "You can't discuss the truth of the holocaust.

That is a distortion of the concept of free speech. The United States should

emulate West Germany, which outlaws such exercises." --Mind-boggling! Don't

you think?

 

http://64.143.9.197/jhr/v11/v11p365_Bennett.html

 

+++++++

 

"Deep down, I believe that a little anti-Semitism is a good thing for the

Jews - reminds us who we are." --Jay Lefkowitz (New York Times Magazine, Feb. 12,

1995 on Page 65). Jay Lefkowitz is now Deputy Assistant to the President for

Domestic Policy. A sick man! Don't you think?

 

 

"An anti-Semite is someone that the Jews hate."

---Joe Sobran

 

Another way of putting it:

An anti-Semite used to be someone who does not like Jews; now it is

someone who the Jews do not like.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Peace is patriotic!

Michael Santomauro

Editorial Director

253 West 72nd street #1711

New York, NY 10023

http://www.RePortersNoteBook.com

Available for Talk-Radio interviews 24hours 212-787-7891

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 

Alexa R. (333)
Saturday February 11, 2012, 1:00 am
Hi Stephen, I'm with you on the letter writing ..
 

Mary P. (157)
Saturday February 11, 2012, 1:07 am
Margaret, "Did you actually understand this quote Alexandra?"

'Poor' Alexandra needs to be Spoonfed; perhaps 'english lessons' are a recommendation!
 

Alexa R. (333)
Saturday February 11, 2012, 1:37 am
Mary P: "perhaps 'english lessons' are a recommendation! "

English lessons for me it is then .. why, ty Mary P.! (-:
 

Alexa R. (333)
Saturday February 11, 2012, 1:40 am
Though, I still reported your anti-Semitic rant .. tsk, tsk.
 

Mary P. (157)
Saturday February 11, 2012, 6:40 am
Alexandra, " I still reported your anti-Semitic rant .. "

LOL!! You and your hatefilled friends are like little 'Cry Babies'! If
You see statements which are true, we hear cries of 'anti semitic' then you want to go running to lay
A report!

You people have accused, demonised, mocked, stereotyped, name called, and insulted us, (people
who stand for justice for ALL, irrelevant of CRRC) but you don't see us behaving like you do! We admit
'Wrong is wrong'!
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday February 11, 2012, 7:02 am
This is why Abdessalam's dignified and reasonable posts are being deleted. It is Alexandra and her firends who are "reporting" or flagging them.
 

Abdessalam Diab (154)
Saturday February 11, 2012, 7:17 am
Truth prevails at the end of the day and only people with mental disabilities can't discuss facts.If they were able to discuss and challenge what I posted,they would have done so but they can't pretend that it is dark while the sun is shinning.
 

Mary P. (157)
Saturday February 11, 2012, 9:16 am
John,
I don't understand how can care2 management DELETE comments which follows
Care2's code of conduct!! When people flag or report a comment there has to be
A valid reason to delete it. So there was NO valid reason for care2 to Delete
Abdessalem's dignified comments!! There is something sinister going on
Here on care2! Perhaps care2 don't even know that people are targetted and
Their true and valuable comments are being deleted by some underhanded cowards!!

We all need to write to care2 management, demanding an explanation as to what is
Happpening.
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday February 11, 2012, 12:40 pm
I think that 10 or so Zionist Islamophobes flag comments for being anti-semitic or libellous or whatever and they just get deleted without the moderator even bothering to look at them.
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Sunday February 12, 2012, 1:51 pm
Hi John, Abdessalam, and Mary,

Mary is right about Care2 management: Just reporting a comment, as far as I am aware, does not lead to its immediate deletion. I report spam all the time, and still see it after reporting. The comment apparently stays up until a Care2 moderator reviews it, finds it inappropriate, and takes it down. I have had the same problem that Abdessalam faces, and it is usually related to a brief cut in internet-service while submitting the comment. These cuts are common, but brief enough that you usually don't notice as pages already loaded are cached on your computer, and pages you load do not take substantially longer. However, it can mess with services where you are logged in, and does so with Care2. To avoid this problem, I either copy my posts to the clipboard before posting, write them in a separate text-editor and copy them in, or use the "back" command in my browser to reload the cached version of the page with my writing. The only sinister things going on, I think, are Care2's failure to be set up for this kind of problem and John's usual paranoia.

Hi Mary,

You're wrong about war: One side is "restrcted" to using black market AK-47s, handguns, rockets loaded with 10 kg fertilizer-bombs (the Qassam Mark 2 standard load), TNT-based warheads (Qassam 3), and now fully modern anti-tank weaponry (still, I suspect, insufficient now that Israel has the Trophy system). That, however, is a moot point. It's war when both sides are powerful enough that the other side's standard police-tactics are insufficient to arrest it. The war is definitely asymmetric and non-conventional, but that is how rebellions have always been, outside of military coups.

Regarding the charge of genocide: Palestinians are mostly concentrated into urban areas and would never receive support from neighbouring countries in an attack. Israel is a fully industrialized, highly militarized state with greater organization than was possible for any genocide in history, and its forces are all just a short drive from Palestinian population-centres. Israel would not need gas-chambers. It would be so easy for Israel to engage in genocide that had it started one even a couple months ago, there would be no Palestinians left in the territories (I suspect it would be done in under one month, actually). Unless you think something changed drastically very recently, there are 2.5 million pieces of evidence against genocide in the West Bank and 1.5 million in the Gaza Strip.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday February 12, 2012, 5:47 pm
Stephen. You say :--

"I have had the same problem that Abdessalam faces, and it is usually related to a brief cut in internet-service while submitting the comment. "

Right. So you are saying that on the three separate occasions when Abdessalam posted his comments and then reposted them - and others saw them on the thread - that he had "brief cut[s]" in the connection. That he had 21 brief cuts just as he was posting, as he posted and reposted 3 times and there were 7 comments? And that each time the comments were seen by other contributors, but a brief cut made them disappear? And that this also explains the disappearnce of Parsifal's comments, that others had seen on this and other threads?

I don't think so. I have also done what you said, that is, copied my comment to the board on a word doc before posting as sometimes the comment does not come up. Thus I can repost if necessary. But this is when the comment doesn't appear at all, not when it appears for others to see and then disappears a day or two later, as Abdessalam's did.

You call me paranoid. Again, I don't think so. There is another explanation for the disappearnce of the comments. I have put forward a theory which seems to fit the facts. Yours does not.
 

(0)
Sunday February 12, 2012, 11:04 pm
Stephen:

Still looking for that UN Resolution for me and John? The one which you claimed existed and still have never come up with it?

This was my answer to the tractor business "As for your whole interpretation of the Syria/Israel and the tractors quote, they were encroaching on a demilitary zone, land which was not under Israel's domain, although they claimed sovereignty. This went on for years prior to the war attempting to show sovereignty over the whole DMZ."

First of all, I have stated time after time after time, that I don't condone any violence, I certainly don't support the Syrians shooting at anyone.

The land that Israel was driving the tractors on though, wasn't theirs. I don't quite know what you are trying to prove or imply that the Syrians are doing something worse than the Israelis. You are trying to justify causing a war or conflict because Syrians shot at Israelis while they were involved in a crime, by encroaching again, as usual, on someone else's land.

Your a really a childish man Stephen. The best you can do is call people names and demand that they listen to your lame arguments which are more often than not fraught with errors. Rather than be an adult and admit your error, you change the subject and continue to insist you were right. Don't bother responding, I am done reading your crap.
 

(0)
Sunday February 12, 2012, 11:21 pm
From Israel's own Kahan Commission:

We have found, as has been detailed in this report, that the Minister of Defense [Ariel Sharon] bears personal responsibility. In our opinion, it is fitting that the Minister of Defense draw the appropriate personal conclusions arising out of the defects revealed with regard to the manner in which he discharged the duties of his office - and if necessary, that the Prime Minister consider whether he should exercise his authority under Section 21-A(a) of the Basic Law: the Government, according to which "the Prime Minister may, after informing the Cabinet of his intention to do so, remove a minister from office."

"On the morning of 18 September, Morris Draper, another of President Reagan's envoys dispatched to Beirut, sent a message to Sharon alleging Israeli responsibility: 'You must stop the massacres. They are obscene. I have an officer in the camp counting the bodies. You ought to be ashamed. They situation is rotten and terrible."(Gilmour, David. Lebanon, The Fractured Country. New York: St. Martin's Press, Inc. 1983, pages 174-176)

 

Rob and Jay B. (121)
Monday February 13, 2012, 6:24 am
John Dhimmi said "Abdessalam. I believe that this is a concerted attack on people who do not support the Zionist line and moreover post against it. They seem to be trying to pick people off one by one in the hope that others will not see the truth and that the deleted person may give up.

How loathsome they are."

Well, then why are you still here and the ever hateful Mary P of the Islamic Propaganda Centre in Durban? Yes, how loathsome you are.

Mary we've tangled with you and your Islamist Taqiyya lies before and you could never prove anything wrong since we quote from your own islamic hatefilled 'scriptures' so you, like John Dhimmi call names and spout ugliness.

You know very well islam and the qur'an, hadith and sira all preach hate toward all non-Muslims and especially toward Jews. Your fire-breathing non-Abrahamic diety even says the day of resurrection won't come until Muslims have murdered all Jews. Wow, you really have 'lived in peace and harmony' together, haven't you - but only as long as all non-Muslims accept second class status and the 'superiority' of Islam.(Google: the Pact of Omar)

We aren't Christians and reject all manmade religions but we admire the teachings of love and tolerance of Jesus of the Gospels, not that myth Mohammed created out of thin air because he didn't know any better (like not even knowing the name of the Abrahamic god, which the Jews would never utter, so he ended up, after several other names, using the old Arab chief pagan deity, Allah. Islam is NOT an Abrahamic religion. Saying it doesn't make it true).

Islam blasphemes Jesus of the Gospels by saying he was not the Son of God, didn't die on the cross and wasn't resurrected. That is certainly NOT believing in Jesus and is very offensive and blasphemous to Christians, but you don't care, do you, since you have all the truth and everyone else is a liar. Funny how when something in Judaism or Christianity disagrees with Mohammed's ravings in the Q or H or Sira, it is all the fault of the books that came first! That is so obviously false and way too convenient.

There isn't room here to list all the hate verses in Islam toward Jews, and all others. But you are very familiar with them all and for you to use the usual Islamist denials of Islamic hate is offensive. Not everyone here is as ignorant of the true teachings of Mohammed as you think. Maybe you haven't even read them after all, like most Muslims.

Qur'an 4:55 "Sufficient for the Jew is the Flaming Fire!"

Qur'an 5:51 " O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk."

Qur'an 17:7 "We shall rouse Our (Muslim) slaves to shame and ravage you (Jews), disfiguring your faces. They will enter the Temple as before and destroy, laying to waste all that they conquer."

Qur'an 3:85 "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (Surrender), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who are losers."

And here's one of the most vile of Mohammed's many vile acts, the beheading of 900 Jewish men and boys and the stealing of their property (of course, Mohammed took his 20%), taking their prettiest widows as sex slaves and selling the rest into slavery:

Tabari VIII:38 "The Messenger of Allah commanded that all of the Jewish men and boys who had reached puberty should be beheaded. Then the Prophet
divided the wealth, wives, and children of the Qurayza Jews among the
Muslims."(one source tells of his laughing while this slaughter is going on. Mohammed, as told in another verse, took his 20% of the stolen property and died obese and rich, unlike Jesus or other 'prophets')
Ishaq:465 "When their wrists were bound with cords, the Apostle was a sea of generosity to us (Muslims)."
Tabari VIII:38 "The Prophet selected for himself from among the Jewish women of the Qurayza, Rayhanah. She became his concubine(sex slave)...(and you think this guy was a representative of the Creator of all? Such hate and greed and violence?)

This disgusting mass murder of defenseless people is explaining Qur'an 33:26-27:
"And those of the People of the Book (Jews) who aided them(unbelievers) - Allah did take them down from their strongholds and cast terror into their hearts. (So that) some ye slew, and some ye made prisoners.
And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, and of a land which ye had not frequented (before). And Allah has power over all things."

Qur'an 59:6 "What Allah gave as booty to His Messenger, He has taken away from the Jews. Allah gives His Messenger Lordship over whom He will.
Whatever booty Allah has given to Muhammad and taken away from the
(Jewish) people of the townships, belongs to Allah and to His Apostle."

Tabari VIII:36"According to Aisha, one Jewish woman was killed. She was by my side, talking with me while Allah's Messenger was killing her men in the marketplace."

And you Muslims are still trying to kill them all and take their land and property. Nothing has changed.
 

Mary P. (157)
Monday February 13, 2012, 1:25 pm
Almighty Lord, please remove Rob and Jays inner hatred of all muslims and islam. Lord please grant him peace, love and compassion for ALL Your Creastions. Amen.

My special prayer for you Rob and Jay.
 

Mary P. (157)
Monday February 13, 2012, 1:28 pm
Oh, i forgot to add! We muslims love you and hope this love releases you from your tragic prison of hate!
 

Past Member (0)
Monday February 13, 2012, 3:28 pm
Hello Stephen. You say:--

"The strategy of launching imprecise rockets into towns to place pressure on an enemy to cease an attack does [make them murderers]".

Quite apart from the fact that Hezbollah was targetting military facilities and not towns, the fa\t that the Zionist Entity placed these military facilities in or near towns is entirely their own affair. One might even say that these installations were deliberately placed where they were.

In addition, that Hezbollah's weapons were not precise does not mean that they should not have used them. NATO ran out of "smart" bombs during the Libya campaign and used conventional, imprecise ones. This also happened during both of the wars on Iraq, when the aggressors could not use "smart" weapons for most of the time. Should they not have been allowed to use them? I am sure your answer would be that they should've.

Hezbollah has taken delivery of longer range and far more precise rockets. I am sure that you are deliriously happy about and applaud this development.
 

Alexa R. (333)
Monday February 13, 2012, 10:58 pm
John D, your blatant lies are becoming so absurd (so those of Mary P) to the point of becoming contradictory:

No Israeli populates a bus with civilians, including civilian children with the for-knowledge that the bus is going to become a terrorist target. Israeli civilians/children are not trained in suicide missions.
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday February 14, 2012, 1:50 am
Alexandra. Your posts become more and more ridiculous. Who on earth is talking about buses? Do try to keep up.
 

Alexa R. (333)
Tuesday February 14, 2012, 5:49 am
John D: "Who on earth is talking about buses? Do try to keep up. "

Hard to keep up with the terrorists trail of destruction John D, here is just a part list:

Israeli cafes and discos, security fences, homes, schools, synagogues, car thieves, taxi hijacks, buses, etc ...
 

Alexa R. (333)
Tuesday February 14, 2012, 5:53 am
by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu

Tal Yehoshua-Koren, wounded in the attack in India, says she is fortunate that her children were not in the vehicle when it was bombed at exactly 3:16 p.m. Monday.

The wife of an Israeli diplomat in New Delhi was seriously wounded but may have saved her own life by dashing out of her vehicle when she saw a motorcyclist attaching a device to her car. It turned out to be magnetic bomb that exploded seconds later and twisted the car into mangled pieces of metal.

She recalled the attack as she lay in her hospital bed and spoke with the Hebrew language newspaper Yediot Acharonot.

“I remember seeing the motorcyclist, who apparently threw something in the direction of the car,” she said.

Doctors operated on her Monday night to remove shrapnel from her back and liver, and she will remain under anesthesia until a decision is made on further treatment.
 

Alexa R. (333)
Tuesday February 14, 2012, 5:54 am
Is the New Delhi car bomb up-to-date enough for you John D?
 

Abdessalam Diab (154)
Tuesday February 14, 2012, 6:00 am
Sending a Green Star is a simple way to say "Thank you"
You cannot currently send a star to Margaret because you have done so within the last week.
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday February 14, 2012, 6:01 am
New Delhi? Well, they are simply copying Zionist methods applied 5 times already on innocent Iranian scientists. If one is wrong both are wrong. Now how about condemning what the Zionist Entity is doing.
 

Abdessalam Diab (154)
Tuesday February 14, 2012, 6:04 am
" IN THE NAME OF GOD , THE MERCY- GIVING , THE MERCIFUL
* SAY 'O DISBLIEVERS
I DO NOT WORSHIP WHAT YOU WORSHIP
NOR ARE YOU WORSHIPPING WHAT I DO
I WILL NOT WORSHIP WHAT YOU HAVE WORSHIPPED,
NEITHER WILL YOU WORSHIP WHAT I WORSHIP
YOU HAVE YOUR RELIGION
AND I HAVE MY RELIGION
 

Abdessalam Diab (154)
Tuesday February 14, 2012, 6:17 am
ولو شاء ربك لآمن من فى الأرض كلهم جميعا ، فأنت تكره الناس حتى يكونوا مؤمنين "( يونس 99 )
“If your Lord had so wished, everyone on earth would have believed, All of them together “(Yuns (Jonah): 99)


إنك لاتهدى من أحببت ولكن الله يهدى من يشاء ، وهو أعلم بالمهتدين " ( القصص 56
“You do not guide someone you love, but God guides those whom he wishes, and HE is quite aware as to who are guided “(Alkasas: 56)

 

Abdessalam Diab (154)
Tuesday February 14, 2012, 6:33 am
Rob and Jay
Jews have been given shelter and safety in Arab and Islamic countries,Thy lived there . They were businessmen,lawyers,doctors,artists,journalists,teachers....etc.untill Zionism started reshaping their minds and they started prefer the promised land rather than the countries that gave them refuge and even began to behave against these countries for the sake of Zionism and Israel. There are still Jewish communities in Arab countries like Egypt,Yemen ,Tunisia ,Morocco and other Islamic countries which hosted them after WW1 and during WW2, Those Jews referred to stay and be faithful for the countries that helped the while they face all sorts of torture and harassment in Europe.Was the holocaust a European or Arabic and Islamic crime?
 

Abdessalam Diab (154)
Tuesday February 14, 2012, 7:21 am
I will not be surprised when a US president will show one day on TV to declare that : YES an Independent Juridical committee had found out that ISRAEL is behind 9/11. UNITED STATES Admits : ISRAEL IS ARMIN AND TRAINING TERRORIST GROUPS TO CREAT TERRORISM
http://www.project.nsearch.com/video/us-admits-israel-is-arming-and-training-terrorist-groups-to-create-terrorism
 

Abdessalam Diab (154)
Tuesday February 14, 2012, 7:32 am
So here we come.I believe New Delhi explosion and the other one in Georgia are an other false flag manufactured in Israel and carried out by Mossad agents in a stupid attempt to justify an attack on both Iran and Hezbollah.
 

Abdessalam Diab (154)
Tuesday February 14, 2012, 7:53 am
Israel MEK and state sponsor of terror groups by Glenn Greenwald who was previously a constitutional law and civil rights litigator in New York. He is the author of the New York Times Bestselling book "How Would a Patriot Act?," a critique of the Bush administration's use of executive power, released in May 2006. His second book, "A Tragic Legacy", examines the Bush legacy. His just-released book is titled "With Liberty and Justice for Some: How the Law Is Used to Destroy Equality and Protect the Powerful." He is the recipient of the first annual I.F. Stone Award for Independent Journalism.
http:www.commondreams.org/view/2012/02/10-7
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday February 14, 2012, 8:25 am
Even by Mossad agents who don't know they are Mossad agents.
 

Stan B. (124)
Tuesday February 14, 2012, 7:25 pm
A man thought to be Iranian has had both legs blown off after attempting to throw a bomb at police in the Thai capital, Bangkok, officials say.

Two other explosions were reported in the same busy commercial district of the city, injuring four other people.

Police said one blast took place at the house the injured man rented with other Iranians. One of those men also threw a bomb at a taxi in the capital.
From the BBC.

Makes your conspiracy theory look totally stupid Abdessalam. Mossad doesn't carry out actions which critically injure Israeli diplomats. That's the sort of thing that Arabs do.
You really are a conspiracy addict. I guess it's an inevitable consequence of an inferior education system which is designed to prevent people thinking for themselves.
.
 

Abdessalam Diab (154)
Wednesday February 15, 2012, 5:17 am
The Real News: Why are Israel and US on a Collision Course with Iran?
Just Foreign Policy talks to The Real News: the dispute over Iran's nuclear program is also a proxy for the contest for influence in the region between the U.S.-Israel-Saudi axis and the Iran axis.
http://therealnews.com/idirect.php?i=7943
 

Abdessalam Diab (154)
Wednesday February 15, 2012, 5:26 am
"The Foreign Ministry spokesman rejected Israeli claims that Iran was involved in the Bangkok bombing and added that efforts by the Zionist regime to harm friendly and historic relations between Iran and Thailand will bear no fruit," the semi-official Fars news agency reported.
 

Abdessalam Diab (154)
Wednesday February 15, 2012, 5:36 am
Stan
It is too early to decide.Thai officials declined to say whether the two men they had detained were involved with any militant group.The man was injured and I think he is still alive and will be questioned and the truth will be known.Mossad is known of recruiting agents and paying them to do some operations to show that Iran is behind it.The facts will be known soon hopefully if the man could stay alive and not be silenced by an other Mossad agent.
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday February 15, 2012, 5:51 am
And as you say, the Zionist Entity has been quick to blame Iran.
 

Abdessalam Diab (154)
Wednesday February 15, 2012, 6:32 am
Indian Investigators do not Suspect Iran in Israel Embassy Blast
Juan Cole, Informed Comment, 02/14/2012
http://www.juancole.com/2012/02/indian-investigators-do-not-suspect-iran-in-israel-embassy-blast.html

 

Alexa R. (333)
Wednesday February 15, 2012, 8:52 am
Malaysia arrests Iranian

Published: 15/02/2012 at 09:14 PM
Online news:

KUALA LUMPUR : Malaysian authorities on Wednesday arrested an Iranian suspected in an alleged bomb plot against Israeli diplomats in Thailand, Malaysia's police chief said.

The Iranian was among three male and one female suspects in the bombings that rattled Bangkok on Tuesday and have piled pressure on Teheran amid accusations of a terror campaign against the Jewish state.

A statement released by Malaysian police chief Ismail Omar late Wednesday said authorities arrested the suspect in Kuala Lumpur at 3:30 pm (2:30 p.m. Thailand time).

"The Iranian was arrested under the Immigration Act of Malaysia out of intelligence provided by Thai counterparts," the statement said.

"He is being investigated for terrorism activities in relation to bombings in Thailand."

The statement gave no further details, such as the suspect's name.

Malaysian police spokesman Ramli Yoosuf told AFP that Thai authorities had been informed of the arrest but he was as yet unaware of any Thai request for the suspect's extradition.

"I don't know how long the investigations will take," he said.

In Bangkok, Thai Foreign Minister Surapong Tovichakchaikul said, "We cannot say yet if it's a terrorist act," he told reporters, "but it's similar to the assassination attempt against a diplomat in India."

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/280007/malaysia-arrests-iranian
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday February 15, 2012, 2:18 pm
As I said upthread, they have clearly, whoever they are, learned from the activities of the Zionist entity which has been doing this sort of thing for decades.
 

(0)
Wednesday February 15, 2012, 3:48 pm
Well Stan, Israeli seems to be pretty fond of killing Iranian Scientists instead. Beware to all ME youngsters, DO NOT BECOME A SCIENTIST, it seems to have become a very dangerous calling.

I am reading Alexandra's posts and am virtually shaking with laughter. Alexandra, do you have an aversion to reading prior to posting?

While you are living in a world filled with fairytales, lollipops and a yellow brick road, a study released by the "Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security" demonstrated that while "47 Muslim-Americans committed or were arrested for terrorist crimes in 2009, the number dropped to 20 this past year".

The FBI databases contains "a chronological list of all terrorist attacks committed on U.S. soil from the year 1980 all the way to 2005". This is what the list shows. Of terrorism committed within the United States, 42% committed were Latino, 24% by extremely left wing groups, 16% commited by "others", 7% committed by Jewish extremists, 6% comitted by Islamic extremists, and 5% committed by Communists.

So up until the end of 2005, more Jewish extremist groups committed acts of terrorism than Islamic affiliated terrorist organizations. I will research this trend further once I get home from work today, as I find it disturbing that this information which is pretty credible (It is the FBI) is ignored andthe myth is perpetuated by the media, governments, hate sites, and individuals like Alexandra, Gillian, Bob, Stan, etc.

In 2009, an article written by Jeffery Weiss of Politics Daily, he claimed “And we’re still left with a terrible problem for a free and multicultural society: Even though 99.999 percent of Muslims abhor attacks on innocent civilians on moral and theological grounds, 100 percent of attempted terrorist attacks on the U.S. (and, with the exception of the Basques in Spain, terrorists attacks on all Western nations) since the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing have been committed by people claiming to act in the name of Islam.” [Jeffrey Weiss, "Why don't Moderate Muslims Police Their Own", Politics Daily, 30 Dec 2009]

In response to this COMPLETELY FICTITUOUS report, Glenn Greenwald stated “I could spend all day listing more of the same. And that’s using the narrowest definition possible of “terrorism”-i.e., excluding any state-sponsored terrorist acts. We’re CURRENTLY AT VARIOUS FORMS OF WAR IN FIVE DIFFERENT MUSLIM COUNTRIES, so it’s not surprising that some of the violence directed at us is from Muslims. But to claim that “100 percent of attempted terrorist attacks on the U.S. (and [other than Spain], terrorists attacks on all Western nations)” since 1995 are by “people claiming to act in the name of Islam” is so blatantly, demonstrably, obviously false that you really have to wonder about a person who would utter such a thing. And while most don’t veer quite as deep into the falsehood department as Weiss did, one would get the sense from listening to our standard political discourse that “Terrorism” and “Islamic-inspired Terrorism” are synonymous. It’s the kind of myth-based demonization that is as familiar as it is false, dangerous and repugnant.” [Glenn Greenwald, "Making 'Islam' Synonymous with Terrorist", Salon, 30 Dec 2009]

Also, according to Time, citing the work done at Duke and North Carolina Universities, “Despite last year’s spike in the number of terrorism cases involving American Muslims, fears of growing radicalization in the American Muslim community may be greatly exaggerated, according to a new study. Researchers at Duke University and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill say that while homegrown Islamic terrorism is a serious issue, it remains a limited problem.” [Bobby Ghosh, "Threat of Homegrown Islamic Terrorism May Be Exaggerated", 06 Jan 2010] In addition, according to "Anti-Terror Lessons of Muslim American Communities"..."the Muslim community has successfully limited radicalization by policing itself". [[Bobby Ghosh, "Threat of Homegrown Islamic Terrorism May Be Exaggerated", 06 Jan 2010]

It also seems that when an terrorist act is committed in the name of Islam by some nutbar it is fully dissected and presented as either a "growing trend" or in-depth examination of the terrorist's religious or cultural values, yet when these incidents occur which do not involve Islam, the attacks are inevitably tacked onto the ever growing list of "isolated incidents". That must be some list. [Source: David Niewert, "Terror in Arizona: Just another 'isolated incident'?, Crooks and Liars, 10 Jan 2011] In addition, Niewart states the obvious, which is "what's equally undeniable is that it comes amid a gradually mounting litany of violence directed against "liberal" and government targets, effectively suggesting a fresh onset of domestic terrorism from the extremist American Right." [Ibid]

This concentrated on the United States, but what about for instance, Europe? We hear so frequently these radical, extreme Islamists running all over Europe, plotting to kill everyone in sight. Is this possibly true?

Nope, not really. Europol, the European Union’s criminal intelligence agency, posts a similar list each year entitled the “EU Terrorism Situation and Trend Report.”

From 2010 Report (based on 2009 figures), Islamist terrorism is still perceived as the biggest threat to most Member States, despite the fact that only one Islamist terrorist attack - a bomb attack inItaly - took place in the EU in 2009. Islamist terrorists have threatened EU Member States with perpetrating attacks aiming at indiscriminate mass casualties. The number of arrests relating to Islamist terrorism (110) decreased by 41 % compared to 2008, which continues the trend of a steady decrease since 2006. Separatist terrorism (RATHER THAN ISLAMIC TERRORISM] continues to be the type of terrorism". [EU Terrorism Situation and Trend Report: TE-SAT 2010]

The numbers in Europe are there are even more stark, with terror attacks perpetrated by Muslims accounting for only 0.4% of terror plots in the EU from 2006-2008. The most recent report, when issued early next year, will include the details from this summer’s horrific attack in Norway, carried out by a man “calling for a Christian war to defend Europe against the threat of Muslim domination.” [EU Terrorism Situation and Trend Report: TE-SAT 2011]

Let's face it. The increase in terrorism is directly proportionate to the slights these groups feel and the actions and attitutes exhibited by their targeted populations. Even in 2011, this report shows that there was an increase in what is considered threats and acts Islamic in nature significantly, in no way does it represent anything close to the majority of terrorist acts and threats perpetuated in Europe. Far from it. Yet, the EU report, after making it abundantly clear that Islamic supported terrorism is far from the greatest percentage of terrorist acts, spend the rest of the report on Islamic terrorism, giving no mention of demographic background of the 71% which are not related to Islam.

Considering the Muslim population is 1.2 billion human beings, America, along with the assistance of the Brits and Canada, have done nothing but target countries which have a Muslim majority, is it surprising that some extremists (which consists of a very small percentage of the Muslim global population) threaten security and commit acts of terror. Who really is participating in a religious war, the one of the extermination of Muslim population? Who is really guilty of racism, where most Islamic terrorist groups take care in differentiating between Judaism and Zionism? I would think that the state of Israel and the Christian fundamentalists of the western world are much more guilty of the demonization of a people based on religious or nationalistic ties than the acts committed against Christians and/or Zionists. It seems to be considered acceptable to rant on about "Islam this" and "Muslim that" with no realization that this is an act of overt racism. You Alexandra attempt to equate criticism of governmental policies Israeli practices to antisemitism and have no problem calling people antisemitics based on this, yet have no issue with demonizing a POPULATION OF 1.2 BILLION PEOPLE BASED SOLELY ON RELIGION DISREGARDING NATIONALISM. You make a Islamic collective with no regard to country, alliances, war action, etc. That definitely is racist.
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday February 15, 2012, 7:36 pm
In the meantime, this is for Alexandra in the hope she will look a little more deeply into the place she defends.

http://972mag.com/new-study-finds-structural-explanation-for-settler-violence/35399/

Study: Settler violence is structural, not a ‘price tag’ matter
Omar Rahman


February 14, 2012

A study conducted by the Washington-based Palestine Center documents settler violence and helps explain how it has been allowed to flourish.

A new study will be released this week on the growing occurrence of Jewish settler violence against Palestinians and their property in the occupied West Bank. The Palestine Center, an influential think tank based in Washington DC, has conducted the report utilizing seven years of daily reports and documentation in order to help explain how, when and where settler violence occurs.

The report, entitled When Settlers Attack, documents a heavy increase in violence perpetrated by Jewish settlers over the last four years, especially from 2010 to 2011, which witnessed a 39 percent rise over a single year and a 315 percent increase from 2006. In 2011 alone there were an average of 2.6 incidents of settler violence per day against Palestinians, marking an historical high point.

A common theory by many observers is that the increase in settler violence can be attributed to the phenomenon of a settler "price tag" policy, enacted against Palestinians as "retribution" for actions by the State of Israel taken against the settlers.

The Palestine Center’s report objects to this conclusion, arguing that settler violence is structural in nature.

While minimal variation in Israeli settler violence over time can be explained as a response to Israeli state actions against settlements, like the dismantlement of outposts, the vast majority of Israeli settler violence is not responsorial but rather structural and symptomatic of occupation.

Along with general explanations of the methods used by settlers, the report studies patterns of violence over the past seven years on a geographical and chronological scale. One of the report’s most interesting attributes is the use of maps to display when and where the violence is coming from.

The report also notes a significant geographical change in where settler violence mainly occurs. Traditionally, Palestinian communities in the southern part of the West Bank were the most prone to violence originating from Jewish settlements. In 2009, however, that changed as the north of the West Bank witnessed the most settler violence, particularly in the area surrounding Nablus.

In general, the geographic trend north, where rural villages are predominantly targeted, suggests that settlers are exploiting unfettered access to isolated Palestinian villages to perpetrate violence more than ever before.

Another interesting discovery is that settler violence does not always occur in communities closest to those settlements where it originates, bypassing proximity considerations in order to strike at targets that fall under Israeli military jurisdiction, specified under the Oslo Accords. Thus the Palestinian Authority can offer little help or protection and the Israeli military remains either unwilling or complacent in the activities.

This testifies to the structural nature of settler violence as opposed to a response-based one aimed at reacting to either Palestinian initiated violence or Israeli state policy. Indeed, according to the report, over 90 percent of villages facing repeated attacks by settlers fall within Israeli security jurisdiction, representing a complete failure by the occupying authority to protect civilians under its jurisdiction.

Although the Palestine Center report is not the first to document settler violence, it does make a serious contribution to the discussion and is worth reading. In its conclusion, it lays out several recommendations to different parties, including the Israeli government, the Palestinian Authority, foreign governments and journalists.
 

(0)
Wednesday February 15, 2012, 8:09 pm
John, you rock!
 

Alexa R. (333)
Thursday February 16, 2012, 12:06 am
That's the ugliness and vileness of war, John D and why Israel is trying so hard to negotiate peace, even when its enemies is laughing at Israel's attempts at agreeing peace.

I repeat my quote made up-thread: "The BDS movement is mistaken in its focus on a single party, Israel, as the impediment to peace. Israel has repeatedly expressed its willingness to live peacefully alongside a Palestinian state."
 

Mary P. (157)
Thursday February 16, 2012, 2:20 am
Alexandra, "That's the ugliness and vileness of war, John D and why Israel is trying so hard to negotiate peace, even when its enemies is laughing at Israel's attempts at agreeing peace"

REALLY Now!!

Here below is how hard 'NOBLE' Israel is ATTEMPTING to avoid War and keep Peace!!

Navy Seals Say False Flag to be Blamed on Iran May Happen at Anytime: Ed Asner

Kurt Nimmo
Infowars.com
February 14, 2012

?
Appearing on the Alex Jones Show on Monday, Emmy Award-winning actor Ed Asner said Navy Seals have told him military action against Iran is forthcoming and will be preceded by a false flag attack.

Asner told Alex and his nationally syndicated radio show audience that the Seals are attempting to alert the American people about the prospect of a false flag operation and “more foreign escapades” before the establishment media “starts brainwashing us.”

Beginning at 8 minutes and 57 seconds in the first video clip above, Asner said Iran is being set-up for military action that will occur during the summer or fall and create an October surprise prior to the election.

Asner said it is up to the American people to recognize and prevent an imminent false flag operation and stop another disastrous war before it gets started. He said the Navy Seals are now coming forward because they are worried that an Iran false flag attack “runs the danger” of creating a “world-wide conflict if it gets out of hand.”

False flag attacks designed to initiate conflict and war have been used numerous times by governments as a foreign policy tactic. During the Asner interview, Alex mentioned Dick Cheney’s effort to start a war with Iran.

“There was a dozen ideas proffered about how to trigger a war,” said Pulitzer Prize-winning New Yorker reporter Seymour Hersh in 2008. “The one that interested me the most was why don’t we build — we in our shipyard — build four or five boats that look like Iranian PT boats. Put Navy seals on them with a lot of arms. And next time one of our boats goes to the Straits of Hormuz, start a shoot-up.”

Cheney’s idea was rejected, but it was eerily reminiscent of the so-called Gulf of Tonkin incident that never occurred but resulted in the Vietnam War that ultimately claimed the lives of more than 58,000 Americans and around three million Southeast Asians.

The Gulf of Tonkin pretext established a pattern of “continuous government lies passed on by pliant mass media,” write Jeff Cohen and Norman Solomon.

In addition to Cheney’s idea of luring Iran into a conflict, the Bush administration devised a plan to trick Saddam Hussein into attacking a U.S. spy plane disguised as a United Nations aircraft.

“The US was thinking of flying U2 reconnaissance aircraft with fighter cover over Iraq, painted in UN colors. If Saddam fired on them, he would be in breach,” Bush wrote in a memorandum to then British Prime Minister Tony Blair
 

Alexa R. (333)
Thursday February 16, 2012, 2:32 am
Mary P..

Violence breads violence. I never claimed all Israelis are immune to paying back violence with violence.

Let us all support Israel's continued attempts at peace and hope it breads peace..
 

Mary P. (157)
Thursday February 16, 2012, 2:38 am
Alexandra,

From my article the passage "Dick Cheney’s effort to start a war with Iran.

“There was a dozen ideas proffered about how to trigger a war,” said Pulitzer Prize-winning New Yorker reporter Seymour Hersh in 2008. “The one that interested me the most was why don’t we build — we in our shipyard — build four or five boats that look like Iranian PT boats. Put Navy seals on them with a lot of arms. And next time one of our boats goes to the Straits of Hormuz, start a shoot-up.”

Can anyone stoop lower than this? Can anyone be this desperate to murder lillions of
Innocent people including their own?

Alesandra !! PEACEFUL Israel Indeed!!!
 

(0)
Thursday February 16, 2012, 2:51 am
Boy Alexandra - those certainly don't sound like moral nation kind of thing words.
Also, talk is cheap Israel, actions speak. Israel can go and say it wants to live in peace, but when they act diametrically opposite of those words, it kind of devalues them. Israel's willingness to live in peace is based on a notion of peace based upon their wish list, not on a peace based on the rule of law. How can Israel claim to want peace, but talk about attacking Iran almost daily. Iran hasn't waged war against ANYONE in almost 300 years, yet Israel is itching to go in and level another country. Is that your definition of peace?
 

Mary P. (157)
Thursday February 16, 2012, 3:01 am
Alexandra, "Violence breads violence."

I am so glad that at least you accept that israel's Violence against palestinians during the theft
Of palestinian lands and lives will BREED violence!
 

Alexa R. (333)
Thursday February 16, 2012, 8:25 am
No Mary P, read history, Israel did not steal any land ..
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Friday February 17, 2012, 12:22 am
I think I figured out how comments could get deleted here, and it's pretty disturbing:

I once ran into trouble in a discussion about correlations between government-spending and GDP-growth. One comment kept getting cut off at some point. I don't remember the exact sequence of symbols there (the discussion was math-heavy), but I remember there was a "lesser than" symbol. The triggering string did not appear in the comment. My point is that for whatever reason, Care2 doesn't sanitize inputs. For reference: http://xkcd.com/327/ . If someone has figured out symbols for "delete" and reference to comments, that could do it, and we wouldn't see the string.

Hi Margaret,
No, I am not looking for it. If you read the comments and capable of basic logic, you would have realized long ago that the point is moot. The U.N. forfeited all claim as arbiter of aggression so its judgement on the matter is no more important than yours or mine. You would also have noticed that I did, in fact, note that I was wrong in my statement that the U.N. recognized the preemptive strike as defensive.

Are you seriously arguing not only that driving a tractor constitutes a show of sovereignty? Sure, and I bet the next time Palestinians walk around with a Palestinian flag in Israel, you'll have no trouble when they're shot. This is beyond ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with driving a non-military vehicle, unarmed, in a demilitarized zone. You're not squirming out of this one. My point is that for an actor to be aggressive, it has to initiative the threat. For Israel to have been responsible for the land-grab, it had to make the land-grab inevitable, or at least not avoidable by behaviour which could be reasonably demanded. The only ways in which civilized behaviour could not be demanded of Syrians would be if they are not free-willed adults. Do you really dehumanize them so much? Had Syrians acted like civilized human beings, the whole land-grab would have failed. The plan assumed that they would not act reasonably because, while reasonable behaviour could be demanded, Israelis correctly did not expect it of Syrian soldiers.

Hi John,
The only military installation I could find in Nahariya is a cemetery. Something tells me they don't need any more rockets. They targeted the city and killed people in it. Same for Maghar, the Saar kibbutz, nor frankly any of the other towns where people died, except Acre where there is a training campus. If you can point them out to me, I would like to see them.
Should NATO have been permitted to use dumb bombs? It depends upon a few factors: First, did they hit civilian-heavy areas? Second, did they give those civilians warning to leave? Third, was there a reasonable expectation of substantial military gains from the bombings? Fourth, what was the CEP of the "dumb bombs" (even without on-board guidance, computerized targeting on the aircraft does wonders for precision)? If the answers are "Yes", "No", "No", and "Larger than the target", then maybe they should not. There may be other relevant factors I have not considered, but you get the idea.

Am I happy about the increased precision of Hezbollah's weapons? If they actually use them in a manner that avoids civilians, then yes I am quite pleased about the improved precision. I don't expect they would because that doesn't fit their defensive strategy, but one can always hope.
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Friday February 17, 2012, 12:23 am
Sorry about the delay in response:

I got caught up in a far more intelligent discussion regarding how to help Arabs living in Israel. If anybody is interested in what I proposed there, let me know.
 

Abdessalam Diab (154)
Friday February 17, 2012, 5:02 am

Big Sis Admits U.S. Does Not Face Terror Threat from Iran or Hezbollah

Despite all the hype drummed up by the establishment media about a scary Iranian or Hezbollah attack on “soft targets” in the United States, the Department of Homeland Security has admitted there is no specific threat facing the country.

House Homeland Security Committee Chairman Pete King fretted over a Hezbollah attack on the fatherland – specifically synagogues – but DHS boss Napolitano was obliged to admit no such threat exists.
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=29334
 

Past Member (0)
Friday February 17, 2012, 5:33 am
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/some-israelis-react-joy-deaths-palestinian-kids-bus-crash-others-revolted-racism

"Today there was horrifying news that at least 8 Palestinian children were killed when the bus that was carrying them crashed into a truck. The popular Israeli news website Walla posted the news on its Facebook page. Within moments, Israelis started posting comments expressing joy at the news. "

Benny: Calm down, they are Palestinian Children.

Tali: Its seems like they are Palestinian children.. Thank God..

Tal: Thank God they are Palestinians

Ajala: Great less terrorists!!!!

Eliya: Only Palestinian children were injured about ten.

Itai: Thank God its Palestinians, let it be such bus every day.

Aleyah: calm down, Its a bus with Palestinian children, lets pray there will be deaths, or at least severe injuries, this is great news to start the day with.
 

Abdessalam Diab (154)
Friday February 17, 2012, 8:59 am
When Is a Terrorist Not a Terrorist? : Answer: When he or she is an Israeli Mossad agent or asset.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article30252.htm
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Saturday February 18, 2012, 11:12 am
Hi Abdessalam,

As I noted elsewhere, a "Terrorist" is not a terrorist when he or she does not actually engage in terrorism. There is a huge difference between assassination and terrorism. The abuse of the term by "informationclearinghouse" shows only its own bias and lack of integrity. I would not recommend it as a source for any politicized topic.
 

Ge M. (217)
Saturday February 18, 2012, 12:36 pm
Mary P, Abdesalam, MM & pillow. You all whitter on about how terrible Israel is and how marvellous Islam is. Now, why is it that Israel, and only Israel, takes in refugees from countries where the Muslims have attacked and murdered Christians? Why is it the Arabs abuse, murder and ill treat any and all refugees that they find? Why is it that Egypt has killed, raped and forced out the majority of the Coptic Christians whilst desecrating holy sites and buildings? The Coptic Christians have lived in Egypt longer than the Muslims and have always been treated as less than second class citizens, some Abdesalam always ignores. Why have Muslims forced out Christian Nigerians, committed genocide in Sudan, killed Christians in Eretaria, stolen girls to put them in brothels in Pakistan? Then we look at the nearly half a million Jewish refugees forced from the Middle East leaving some 2,000 other than in Iran where less than a quarter have been left as second class citizens? Yes Mary P, you point this country out yet no other and fail to comment on the most important bit, that less than a quarter of the population are left and they are being harrassed and told to leave.

Yet we have itinerant Arabs living in Israel because the other Muslim dominated countries will not allow them in and yet not one of you complain about Jordan which is where they are supposed to be living. Not one of you condemns the abuses, murders, paedophilia, organ thefts, rapes, genocide and abuses by Muslims in other countries. Now, why is that?

Then we look at Libya who is giving weapons to Muslims in African countries to continue to perpetrate these abuses.

Then we look at the people who refuse to allow Israel the right to exist and mandate this, Hamas, Abbas, Iran -I don't need to continue, each of you know what I am talking about but will turn a blind eye to anything that is the truth.

When you actually start condemning the atrocities and stop praising the abuses, like MM did when we grieved for the slaughter of an unarmed family with 2 little kids and a 3 month old baby. The way that the Gazans do. The way that the others must do as they do not condemn it. If you don't condemn it then you approve it!
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday February 18, 2012, 12:52 pm
YOU CAN’T GET THERE FROM HERE: THE NEED FOR “COLLAPSE WITH AGENCY” IN PALESTINE by Jeff Halper


Even as I write this, the bulldozers have been busy throughout that one indivisible country known by the bifurcated term Israel/Palestine. Palestinian homes, community centers, livestock pens and other “structures” (as the Israel authorities dispassionately call them) have been demolished in the Old City, Silwan and various parts of “Area C” in the West Bank, as well among the Bedouin – Israeli citizens – in the Negev/Nakab. This is merely mopping up, herding the last of the Arabs into their prison cells where, forever, they will cease to be heard or heard from, a non-issue in Israel and, eventually, in the wider world distracted from bigger, more pressing matters.



An as-yet confidential report submitted by the European consuls in Jerusalem and Ramallah raises urgent concerns over the “forced expulsion” of Palestinians – a particularly strong term for European diplomats to use –from Area C of the West Bank (the 60% of the West Bank under full Israeli control but which today contains less than 5% of the Palestinian population). Focusing particularly on the rise in house demolitions by the Israeli authorities and the growing economic distress of the Palestinians living in Area C, the report mentions the fertile and strategic Jordan Valley (where the Palestinian population has declined from 250,000 to 50,000 since the start of the Occupation), plans to relocate 3000 Jahalin Bedouins to a barren hilltop above the Jerusalem garbage dump and the ongoing but accelerated demolition of Pales tinian homes (500 in 2011).



At the same time the “judaization” of Jerusalem continues apace, a “greater” Israeli Jerusalem steadily isolating the Palestinian parts of the city from the rest of Palestinian society while ghettoizing their inhabitants, more than 100,000 of which now live beyond the Wall. Some 120 homes were demolished in East Jerusalem in 2011; over the same period the Israeli government announced the construction of close to 7000 housing units for Jews in East and “Greater” Jerusalem. “If current trends are not stopped and reversed,” said a previous EU report, “the establishment of a viable Palestinian state within the pre-1967 borders seems more remote than ever. The window for a two-state solution is rapidly closing….”



In fact, it closed long ago. In terms of settlers and Palestinians, the Israeli government treats the whole country as one. Last year it demolished three times more homes of Israeli citizens (Arabs, of course) than it did in the Occupied Palestinian Territory. The demolition of Bedouin homes in the Negev/Nakab is part of a plan approved by the government to remove 30,000 citizens from their homes and confine them to townships.



None of this concerns “typical” Israelis even if they have heard of it (little appears in the news). For them, the Israeli-Arab conflict was won and forgotten years ago, somewhere around 2004 when Bush informed Sharon that the US does not expect Israel to withdraw to the 1967 borders, thus effectively ending the “two-state solution,” and Arafat “mysteriously” died.



Since then, despite occasional protests from Europe, the “situation” has been normalized. Israelis enjoy peace and quiet, personal security and a booming economy (with the usual neoliberal problems of fair allocation). The unshakable, bi-partisan support of the American government and Congress effectively shields it from any kind of international sanctions. Above all, Israeli Jews have faith that those pesky Arabs living somewhere “over there” beyond the Walls and barbed-wire barriers have been pacified and brought under control by the IDF. A recent poll found that “security,” the term Israelis use instead of “occupation” or “peace,” was ranked eleventh among the concerns of the Israeli public, trailing well behind employment, crime, corruption, religious-secular differences, housing and other more pressing issues .



A for the international community, the “Quartet” representing the US, the EU, Russia and the UN in the non-existent “peace process” has gone completely silent. (Israel refused to table its position on borders and other key negotiating issues by the January 26th “deadline” laid down by the Quartet, and no new meetings are scheduled). The US has abandoned any pretense of an “honest broker.” Months ago, when the US entered its interminable election “season,” Israel received a green light from both the Democrats and Republicans to do whatever it sees fit in the Occupied Territory. Last May the Republicans invited Netanyahu to address Congress and send a clear message to Obama: hands off Israel. That same week, Obama, not to be out-done, addressed an AIPAC convention and reaffirmed Bush’s promise that Israel will not have to return to the 1967 borders or relinquish its major settlement blocs in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. He also took the occasion to promise an American veto should the Palestinians request membership in the UN – though that would merely amount to an official acceptance of the two-state treaty that the US claims it has been fostering all these years. No, as far as Israel and Israeli Jews are concerned, the conflict and even the need for pretense is over. The only thing remaining is to divert attention to more “urgent” global matters so that the Palestinian issue completely disappears. Voila Iran.



Oh, but what about the “demographic threat,” that “war of the womb” that will eventually force a solution? Well, as long as Israel has the Palestinian Authority to self-segregate its people, it has nothing to worry about. While the Palestinian Authority plays the “two-state solution” game, Israel can simply herd the Palestinians into the 70 tiny islands of Areas A and B, lock the gates and let the international community feed them – and go about placidly building a Greater Land of Israel with American and European complicity. Indeed, nothing demonstrates self-segregation more than Prime Minister Salem Fayyad’s neoliberal scheme of building a Palestinian ...something… “from the ground up.” By building for the well-to-do in new private-sector cities like Rawabi, located safely in Area A, by building ne w highways (with Japanese and USAID assistance) that respect Israeli “Greater” Jerusalem and channel Palestinian traffic from Ramallah to Bethlehem through far-away Jericho, by expressing a willingness to accept Israeli territorial expansion in exchange for the ability to “do business,” Fayyad has invented yet a new form of neoliberal oppression-by-consent: viable apartheid (viable, at least, for the Palestinian business class). And as in the Bantustans of apartheid South Africa, the Palestinian Authority maintains a repressive internal order through its own American-trained/Israeli-approved militia, a second layer of occupation. (During the 2008 assault on Gaza, one of the few places in the world in which there were no demonstrations was the West Bank, where they were forbidden by the Palestinian Authority. Then-Prime Minister Olmert crowed that this was evidence of how effectively the Palestinians had been pacified.)



Indeed, by clinging to the two-state solution and continuing to participate in “negotiations” years after they have proven themselves a trap, the Palestinian leadership plays a central role in its own people’s warehousing. The reality – even the fact – of occupation gets buried under the diversions set up by the fraudulent yet unending “peace process.” This only enables Israel not only to imprison the Palestinians in tiny cells; witness today’s mini-ethnic cleansing, just one of thousands of micro-events that have the cumulative effect of displacement, expulsion, segregation and incarceration. It also enables Israel to then blame the victims for causing their own oppression! When a Palestinian leadership assumes the prerogative to negotiate a political resolution yet lacks any genuine authority or leverage to do so, and when, in addition, it fails to abandon negotiations even after they have been exposed as a trap, it comes dangerously close to being collaborationist. For its part, Israel is off the hook. Instead of going through the motions of establishing an apartheid regime, it simply exploits the willingness of the Palestinian Authority to perpetuate the illusion of negotiations as a smokescreen covering its virtual imprisonment of the Palestinian “inmates.” Once the current mopping up operations are completed, the process of incarceration will be complete.



Today the only alternative agency to the Palestinian Authority is segments of the international civil society. The Arab and Muslims peoples for whom Palestinian liberation is an integral part of the Arab Spring, stand alongside thousands of political and human rights groups, critical activists, churches, trade unions and intellectuals throughout the world. Crucial as it is for keeping the issue alive and building grassroots support for the Palestinian cause that will steadily “trickle up” and affect governments’ policies, however, civil society advocacy is a stop-gap form of agency, ultimately unable to achieve a just peace by itself. We, too, are trapped in the dead-end personified by the two-state solution, reference to a “peace process” and their attendant “negotiations.” There is no way forward in the current paradigm. We must break out into a world of new possibilities foreclosed by the present options: a “two-state” apartheid regime or warehousing.



In my view, while advocacy and grassroots mobilization remain relevant, several tasks stand before us. First, we must endeavor to hasten the collapse of the present situation and subsequently, when new paradigms of genuine justice emerge from the chaos, be primed to push forward an entirely different solution that is currently impossible or inconceivable, be that a single democratic state over the entire country, a bi-national state, a regional confederation or some other alternative yet to be formulated. The Palestinians themselves must create a genuine, inclusive agency of their own that, following the collapse, can effectively seize the moment. Formulating a clear program and strategy, they will then be equipped to lead their people to liberation and a just peace, with the support of activists and others the world over.



A necessary and urgent first step towards collapsing the otherwise permanent regime of oppression in Israel/Palestine is that we stop talking about a two-state solution. It’s dead and gone as a political option – if, indeed, it ever really existed. It should be banned from the discourse because reference to an irrelevant “solution” only serves to confuse the discussion. Granted, this will be hard for liberals to do; everyone else, however, has given up on it. Most Palestinians, having once supported it, now realize that Israel will simply not withdraw to a point where a truly viable and sovereign state can emerge. The Israeli government, backed by the Bush-Obama policies on the settlement blocs, doesn’t even make pretence of pursuing it anymore, and the Israeli public is fine with the status quo. Nor does the permanent warehousing of the Palestinians seem to faze the American or European governments, or the Arab League. Even AIPAC has moved on to the “Iranian threat.”



Behind the insistence of the liberal Zionists of J Street, Peace Now, the Peace NGOs Forum run out of the Peres Center for Peace and others to hang on to a two-state solution at any cost is a not-so-hidden agenda. They seek to preserve Israel as a Jewish state even at the cost of enforcing institutional discrimination against Israel’s own Palestinian citizens. The real meaning of a “Jewish democracy” is living with apartheid and warehousing while protesting them. No, the liberals will be the hardest to wean away from the two-state snare. Yet if they don’t abandon it, they run the risk of promoting de facto their own worst nightmare of warehousing while providing the fig-leaf of legitimacy to cover the policies of Israel’s extreme right – all in the name of “peace.” This is what happens when one’s ideology places restrictions on one’s ability to perceive evil or to draw necessary if d ifficult conclusions. When wishful thinking becomes policy, it not only destroys your effectiveness as a political actor but leads you into positions, policies and alliances that, in the end, are inimical to your own goals and values. Jettisoning all talk of a “two-state solution” removes the major obstacle to clear analysis and the ability to move forward.



The obfuscation created by the “two-state solution” now out of the way, what emerges as clear as day is naked occupation, an apartheid regime extending across all of historic Palestine/Israel and the spectre of warehousing. Since none of these forms of oppression can ever be legitimized or transformed into something just, the task before us becomes clear: to cause their collapse by any means necessary. There are many ways to do this, just as the ANC did. Already Palestinian, Israel and international activists engage in internal resistance, together with international challenges to occupation represented by the Gaza flotillas and attempts to “crash” Israeli borders. Many civil society actors the world over have mobilized, some around campaigns such as Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions (BDS), others around direct actions, still others engaged in lobbying the UN and governments through such instruments as the Human Rights Council, the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD) and international courts. There have been campaigns to reconvene the Tribunal that, under the Fourth Geneva Convention, has the authority and duty to sanction Israel for its gross violations. Dozens of groups and individuals alike engage in public speaking, mounting Israel Apartheid Weeks on university campuses and working through the media. And much more.



And here is where Palestinian civil society plays a crucial role, a role that cannot be played by non-Palestinians. If it is agreed that the Palestinian Authority must go if we are to get beyond the two-state trap – indeed, the dismantling of the PA being a major part of the collapse of the present system – then this call must originate from within the Palestinian community. Non-Palestinians must join in, of course, but the issue of who represents the Palestinians is their call exclusively.



Non-Palestinians can lso suggest various end-games. I’ve written, for example, about a Middle East economic confederation, believing that a regional approach is necessary to address the core issues. The Palestinian organization PASSIA published a collection of twelve possible outcomes. It is obvious, though, that it is the sole prerogative of the Palestinian people to decide what solution, or range of solutions, is acceptable. For this, and to organize effectively so as to bring about a desired outcome, the Palestinians need a new truly representative agency, one that replaces the PA and gives leadership and direction to broad-based civil society agency, one that has the authority to negotiate a settlement and actually move on to the implementation of a just peace.



As of now, it appears there is only one agency that possesses that legitimacy and mandate: the Palestinian National Council of the PLO (although Hamas and the other Islamic parties are not (yet) part of the PLO). Reconstituting the PNC through new elections would seem the most urgent item on the Palestinian agenda today – without which, in the absence of effective agency, we are all stuck in rearguard protest actions and Israel prevails. Our current situation, caught in the limbo between seeking the collapse of the oppressive system we have, and having a Palestinian agency that can effectively lead us towards a just resolution, is one of the most perilous we’ve faced. One person’s limbo is another person’s window of opportunity. Say what you will about Israel, it knows how to hustle and exploit even the smallest of opportunities to nail down its con trol permanently.



“Collapse with agency,” I suggest, could be a title of our refocused efforts to weather the limbo in the political process. Until a reinvigorated PNC or other representative agency can be constituted, a daunting but truly urgent task, Palestinian civil society might coalesce enough to create a kind of interim leadership bureau. This itself might be a daunting task. Most Palestinian leaders have either been killed by Israel or are languishing in Israeli prisons, while Palestinian civil society has been shattered into tiny disconnected and often antagonistic pieces. At home major divisions have been sown between “’48” and “’67” Palestinians; Gaza, Jerusalem and the West Bank have been effectively severed; and within the West Bank restrictions on movement among a bewildering array of “areas” – A, B, C, C-Restri cted, H-1, H-2, nature reserves, closed military areas – have resulted in virtual, largely disconnected Palestinian mini-societies. Political divisions, especially among secular/traditional and Islamic factions, have been nurtured, not least by Israel. Overall, the Palestinian population, exhausted by years of sacrifice and resistance, impoverished and preoccupied with mere survival, has been left largely rudderless as many of its most educated and skilled potential leaders have left or are forbidden by Israel to return.



For its part, the Palestinian leadership has done little to bridge the wider divisions amongst those falling under PA rule, Palestinian citizens of Israel, residents of the refugee camps and the world-wide Diaspora, divisions that have grown even wider since the PLO and the PNC fell moribund. Indeed, major portions of the Palestinian Diaspora (and one may single out especially but not exclusively the large and prosperous communities of Latin America), have disconnected from the national struggle completely. The Palestinian possess some extremely articulate spokespeople and activists, but they tend to be either a collection of individual voices only tenuously tied to grassroots organizations, or grassroots resistance groups such as the Popular Committees that enjoy little political backing or strategic direction.



Ever aware that the struggle for liberation must be led by Palestinians, our collective task at the moment, in my view, is to bring about the collapse of the present situation in Palestine in order to exploit its fundamental unsustainabilty. The elimination of the Palestinian Authority is one way to precipitate that collapse. It would likely require Israel to physically reoccupy the Palestinian cities and probably Gaza as well (as if they have ever been de-occupied), bringing the reality of raw occupation back to the center of attention. Such a development would likely inflame Arab and Muslim public opinion, not to mention that of much of the rest of the world, and would create an untenable situation, forcing the hand of the international community. Israel would be put in an indefensible position, thus paving the way for new post-collapse possibilities – this time wi th an effective and representative Palestinian agency in place and a global movement primed to follow its lead.



But given the underlying unsustainability of the Occupation and the repressive system existing throughout historic Palestine – the massive violations of human rights and international law, the disruptive role the conflict plays in the international system and its overt brutality – collapse could come from a variety of places, some of them unsuspected and unrelated to Israel/Palestine. An attack on Iran could reshuffle the cards in the Middle East, and the Arab Spring is still a work in progress. Major disruptions in the flow of oil to the West due an attack on Iran, internal changes in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States, instability in Russia and even the fact that China has no oil of its own could cause major financial crises worldwide. Sino-American tensions, environmental disasters or Pakistan’s nuclear weapons falling into the hands of the Taliban with unpredictable Indian reactions may all play an indirect yet forceful role. Who knows? Ron Paul, President Gingrich’s newly appointed Secretary of State, might end all military, economic and political support for Israel, in which case the Occupation (and more) would fall within a month.



Whatever the cause of the collapse – and we must play an active role in bring it about – it is incumbent upon us to be ready, mobilized and organized if we are to seize that historic moment, which might be coming sooner than we expect. Effective and broadly representative Palestinian agency will be critical. Collapse with agency is the only way to get “there” from “here.”


Jeff Halper is the Director of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions (ICAHD).
 

Phyllis Baxter (40)
Saturday February 18, 2012, 1:38 pm
Theocracies never work out in the long run. Whether the deity be a god or mammon.

While ever people are oppressed and brainwashed from birth, there will be conflict.

Make Jordan and Syria (who took 78% of 'Palestine' in 1948) give the Jewish properties to the 'Palestinians' who are claiming displacement.

60 suicide bombings in the year before the Wall had to be built and the Arabs are screaming 'apartheid'? What a distortion!

Every country has the right to self defence.
 

patrica and edw jones (190)
Saturday February 18, 2012, 4:44 pm
Mary Pee - there is no REASONABLE equation to be made between Israel and Iran - Israel is for Peace - Iran and its satanic pals are NOT. Israel has nuclear weapons - as does every TRUE DEMOCRACY. Israel is in the unique position of being continually threatened with extinction by most of its neighbours - the most terrifying being IRAN. You dimwits on this blog continually fail to get this message through your skulls! The grey matter seems bogged in mesmerising slugishness. Hezbollah is continually firing rockets into Israel daily - yet your hatred/dislike of Israel stops you from freeing up your vision and seeing the truth. Islam is ungracious, deceitful and evil beyond measure. Palestinians are trouble makers - always have been and that is why the Hashemite King Hussein of Jordan quashed the autonomy of Palestinian organisations who were forever making trouble there. We believe Egypt and Lebanon did the same. You see - the Palestinians just can't live peacefully anywhere - and even if they got land back from Israel - which does not belong to the Palestinians anyway - they would NEVER BE SATISFIED - 'TIS THE NATURE OF THE BEAST....and so it is with Hezbollah. The must be removed permanently - otherwise - like vultures - they change trees now and then.
 

patrica and edw jones (190)
Saturday February 18, 2012, 5:20 pm
What a Dodo - John Pillow is - Mauritania has a small minority of Christians - Roman Catholics in fact and they number around 5,000. Always check what JP says - he is a chronic mis-informer.
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday February 18, 2012, 6:39 pm
Patricia and Edw.

You say:--

"Mary Pee". Your avatar shows you as being elderly, but I think it must be a fake. Your intellectual level is of a 5 year old.

"Israel has nuclear weapons - as does every TRUE DEMOCRACY". Does this mean that Germany, Switzerland, Finland, to name but a few are not democracies as they don't have nuclear weapons? Or, conversely, are Pakistan and N Korea "true democracies"?

"Hezbollah is continually firing rockets into Israel daily" Do you really mean that or are you referring to rockets from Gaza, which you have previously tried to state are the responsibilty of Hamas. In any case, neither party fires rockets into the Zionist Entity every day.

"You see - the Palestinians just can't live peacefully anywhere - and even if they got land back from Israel - which does not belong to the Palestinians anyway" That's a searing bit of logic. If the Palestinians "got land back" and it "does not belong to the Palestinians anyway". Why would they "get land back" if it never belonged to them? I'm glad you have admitted the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, at least. You are learning, although it's a long, difficult process.
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday February 18, 2012, 6:41 pm
Please give a link Pat/Edw. I supplied a link to the CIA Factbook which states Mauritania as 100% Muslim.
 

Stephen Brian (23)
Saturday February 18, 2012, 7:49 pm
Hi John,

Next time you want to post an article that long, please post a link and a write a summary. I can get pretty long-winded, but that one was too long, even for me. I wouldn't mind reading a summary and then using the article for reference, but I just don't care enough about this discussion to go through something like that properly.
 

patrica and edw jones (190)
Sunday February 19, 2012, 1:15 am
If there was logic in your argument J.Pillow - and if it were more concise and to the point - there might well be some merit in your blatherings -( here we are being generous to a fault). Your lengthy diatribe and name calling is boring to the 'nth degree. Do research about Germany, Finland et al - you may be surprised who has nuclear weapons. We could go on at length Mr.Pillowbiter - but it is like trying to describe the workings of a TV set to Neanderthal man.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday February 19, 2012, 10:21 am
Hi Stephen. Here's a shorter one on the deplorable attempts by Zionists to censor free speech.

State University Hosts Israeli Historian Ilan Pappe- Says No to McCarthyite Campaign

Breaking news/a good day for free speech: despite extensive efforts by the new Amcha Initiative to get Israeli historian Ilan Pappe booted from Cal State University campuses, where he is scheduled to speak next week, the presidents of Cal State Fresno, Cal State Northridge, and Cal Poly have taken a strong, unanimous stand in support of free speech on college campuses.

If you’re near any of these campuses, please go hear Ilan Pappe speak the week of February 20th. He’s a brave, important scholar whose analysis and insights are invaluable to understanding Israel and Palestine. He’s speaking at Cal State Northridge, Cal Poly in San Luis Obispo and Cal State Fresno.

In the attempt to censor Pappe, who is a Jewish Israeli, UC Santa Cruz Hebrew lecturer Tammy Rossman-Benjamin, under the aegis of her new group, “The Amcha Initiative: Protecting Jewish Students,” recently sent a letter to the president of the CSU system against Pappe and his CSU hosts. The letter is a prime example of doublespeak, emphasizing – using bold font and capital letters - that “are NOT asking that these three events be cancelled or that Ilan Pappe be censored.” (emphasis in original)

What, then, were they asking for? For the Cal State campuses and Cal Poly to “rescind all … sponsorship and support” from the Pappe events. What does that mean, exactly? Removing the events from campus and preventing the faculty from hosting Pappe in their official capacity. So no, that wouldn’t exactly be censoring Pappe – he could still speak off-campus, we presume – but it would surely be censoring the faculty who invited him, making a mockery of the freedom of intellectual inquiry and free speech that are so essential to college campuses.

There’s more to this story, too. The Amcha letter claims that Pappe’s event is propaganda, not education, and cites the political activism of the faculty who invited him (including the Dean of the College of Arts and Humanities at CSU-Fresno) as evidence. This claim that political people can’t be interested in education, or that people can’t simultaneously be committed to a political cause and to rigorous scholarship is both insulting and revealing. Revealing because it suggests on which side of the scale Rossman-Benjamin, an educator paid by the state of California, would fall.

And today, Rossman-Benjamin’s efforts failed. The presidents’ statement is strong and clear. In it, they state that “Universities are places where debate, discussion and free ideas are welcome and encouraged. … Academic freedom and freedom of speech are … cornerstones … of a functioning democracy.”

That’s right – free speech, higher education, functioning democracy are all deeply intertwined.

And moreover, they say, “Universities are charged with teaching students how to think for themselves….We seek to instill in students the tools to fairly and intelligently assess all data and views, as well as the personal integrity and values to come to a rational and reasonable conclusion.”

Exactly. They trust the learning process. They trust that students are intelligent and capable and have integrity, and can learn how to assess data and opposing, conflicting viewpoints.

That is, their educational philosophy is the opposite of Tammy Rossman-Benjamin, who has been the most visible leader behind a growing campaign to eliminate from college campuses virtually any criticism, however mild, of Israeli human rights practices.

In 2010, Rossman-Benjamin succeeded in getting Israeli peace activists kicked off of UC Santa Cruz campus. In March 2011, she – together with the SF Jewish Community Relations Council and the ADL - failed to do the same for a conference on Palestinians legal rights at UC Hastings (though they did get Hastings to pull its “name and brand” from the proceedings.

Also in March 2011, Rossman-Benjamin filed a complaint against UC-Santa Cruz, her employer, with the federal Office on Civil Rights, under the newly revamped anti-bullying guidelines (Eyal Mazor wrote a report on these guidelines for Muzzlewatch here. Rossman-Benjamin’s complaint alleges a “hostile environment” for Jewish students at UC-Santa Cruz and fills 29 pages with reports mainly about human rights activists speaking on campus. According to this complaint, any criticism of Israel is “anti-semitic” and “inciting hatred” against Israel – which, according to Benjamin, automatically means against Jewish students, too. We expect the Office of Civil Rights to dismiss this complaint: despite Rossman-Benjamin’s statement in the Forward suggesting that investigation itself proves the validity of her claim, if a complaint is filed, the OCR must investigate, like firefighters responding to a fire.

Which brings us back to the Amcha letter on Israeli historian Ilan Pappe- it says that hosting the Jewish Israeli historian on campus “cannot help but create a hostile environment for Jewish students” at these three campuses. That language sounds a lot like a threat, or maybe a promise. Are these campuses next on Rossman-Benjamin’s list for an Office of Civil Rights Title VI complaint?
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday February 19, 2012, 11:36 am
Oh dear.

"Your lengthy... name calling is boring to the 'nth degree" - and this is preceeded with "J. Pillow"

"Do research about Germany, Finland et al - you may be surprised who has nuclear weapons". Finland? Are you mad? You are trying to say that Finland has nuclear weapons? When I lived there they had 2 nuclear power stations, one from Russia and one from Sweden as part of their East/West balancing act (they may have more now, but I only return there once a year). Do you mean nuclear power or are you truly, madly trying to say that Finland is a nuclear armed state as it is a democracy?

"We could go on at length Mr.Pillowbiter". Name calling again, as well being a homophobic insult.
 

Frank Mugford (11)
Thursday May 9, 2013, 5:36 am
Nazirael isn't the slightest interested in peace in the illegally occupied Palestinian Territories. They are a rogue Fascist and cruel state who refuse to tell the World what nuclear bombs it has; the sooner Iran gets the bomb the better. And of course Nazirael is scared of Hezbollah, the IDF were well beaten by Hezbollah and will be again, even the so called famous Maglans.
There are many sensible Israelis like Chomsky, Finkelstein and many other high level intellectuals but, sadly, average Israelis are allowing themselves to be painted into a very dangerous corner. Undoubtedly many Innocents will suffer for the cowardly actions of Likud/Netanyahu and the like.
 
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