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Islam Vs. Man's Best Friend?

Animals  (tags: dogs, Muslim attitudes to dogs, pets )

- 2115 days ago -
As I was about to launch another tennis ball for her to retrieve, I was approached by two attractive, deeply tanned young women who objected to Shiba's performance, or, rather, to Shiba herself. They demanded that we cease and desist

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AWAY AWHILE Cal M (1067)
Friday September 7, 2012, 4:01 am
Thanks Stan, this is a case of culture clash gone wild. I never did understand why dogs are regarded as so unclean by Islam, but what those women did as the equivalent of an Orthodox Jews telling people who are eating food from McDonald's to put away their non-kosher food so they don't have to smell it! It is beyond cultural toleration to expect the author of the article to have his rights and those of his dog to be trampled by outsiders or even local folks who don't share his cultural beliefs. None of us has to like the practices or beliefs of others. In public though, we must show restraint and have the good sense and civility not to impose our thoughts and practices on others including not restricting the freedoms of others in order to promote our own rights.

AWAY AWHILE Cal M (1067)
Friday September 7, 2012, 4:02 am
The greatness of a Nation can be judged by the way in which its animals are treated.

~ Mohandas K. Gandhi

Tommy S (11)
Friday September 7, 2012, 4:16 am
Where do these ingrates get off--- they worship a pagan deity and all are supposed to bow to their whims.
The reason their bandit leader hated dogs was that they gave warning of muslim sneak attacks and as for negating a prayer that I can understand -- the site of all those butts in the air might be too much for an amorous dog

monica r (41)
Friday September 7, 2012, 4:36 am
In Spain they are poisoning peoples' pet dogs. In Belgium they are pushing for pet dogs to be illegal.

Mohammed hated dogs because they are excellent judges of character. Which he himself (pedophile, slave owner) lacked quite egregiously.

Sandra T (8)
Friday September 7, 2012, 4:49 am
Simple solution for ALL Islamists. Get the hell out & live in an Islamic country. I would be far more concerned that these silly bitches would pollute the water and make my dog sick.

There is only one thing that we can do in our countries: defy Islam & Islamists' demands every chance we get. Walk your dogs where ever you have the legal right to. If they don't like it, next time bring a group of friends along who are dog owners. Walk your dogs by mosques every opportunity you have. Refuse to spend your money at businesses owned by Islamists. Refuse to donate to any charity that is backed by any Islamic organization. Avoid Islamists 'cultural festivals' like the plague.

And first and foremost, get yourself a copy of the Quran and read it from cover to cover. Read the Hadith and all other Islamic related garbage. We must educate ourselves. It is absolutely frightening how ignorant people in western countries are of the actual teachings of Islam, and of the crimes committed in the name of their evil 'allah' and MoPedophile.

We should no more be accepting of this bigoted, hateful, violent cult and its members than we are of white supremacists and Naziism. Islam is NOT a culture. Islam is not a race. It's a very dangerous, dictatorial, violent, sexist, misogynistic, hostile religious cult and form of government. Stop being fearful of being labeled an 'islamophobe' or a 'racist' and do what you know is right. Shut this putrid pile of rubbish in its tracks before situations such as this one get even more out of hand. I personally refuse to be dictated to by mentally challenged nutters and have every intention of continuing to educate people anywhere I have a chance as to the realities of both Islam and Islamists.

Barbara K (60)
Friday September 7, 2012, 4:50 am
Can you tell them to "bug off, I live by my beliefs, not yours"?

Jennifer Ward (40)
Friday September 7, 2012, 5:02 am
The arrogance of these people is beyond belief! Time to put them in their place - the problem is cultural- any consideration or apology is considered ;weakness' Why don't they just stay in the Middle East if they don't want to live and let live?

Diane O (194)
Friday September 7, 2012, 5:09 am
Stan, this is such a well written article. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. The content, however, reminds me that people from other countries who come to our country need to understand that they need to do things our way. Were I to visit a middle eastern country where the women were required to cover their heads you can bet I would have a scarf covering my hair.

Thanks so much for posting this thread!

Beth S (330)
Friday September 7, 2012, 5:55 am
This is the wave of the future -- and it will get far worse than this -- as Muslims and their values take over. Most of Europe as Sharia zones, where unless you are dressed and acting (no dogs, no music, hair covered, arms, legs and necks covered) for women, then YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED IN -- and this is in Europe.

I can't won't even call him a prophet, but you know the Muhammad I mean, who HATED dogs and ordered them killed.

And so today, Muslims continue to kill dogs -- poisoning them in Spain and other European cultures.

It does not matter to most Muslims that this is against our culture. Islam has consistently, persistently and relentlessly gone into every culture they've ever been in and where they've developed a critical mass, they have CHANGED the culture -- and not for the better in the West.

We're starting out dogs here, but that's just a foretaste.

Below are a number of things Islam has to say about dogs, but by no means is it an exhaustive list.


Muhammad made strange and harsh statements about dogs and these edicts affect dogs in a tragic way. His teachings may have come from cultural bias, Pagan concepts, or his own imagination, but wherever they came from they led to the cruel treatment of dogs.

None of the statements regarding dogs are found in the Quran but they abound in the various collections of traditions (hadith). These traditions are a primary foundation of Islamic theology and are the basis of many Islamic laws. They render dogs as "impure" and worse. Per Muhammadís orders most dogs were to be killed and all dogs of a specific color (black) had to be killed.

Muhammad claimed to be a prophet of God and as such his word was to be obeyed. With the teeth of Islam biting worldwide it is vital that Muhammadís teachings be scrutinized to determine if he were a nut or a prophet.



Below are a number of Hadith on various aspects involving dogs. All Hadith are from the Sahih collections of Bukhari[1] and Muslim[2], or the Sunan of Abu Dawud[3]. After the Quran, Bukhari's set of Hadith are regarded to be the second most important books in Islam, followed closely by the Hadith of Muslim. I quote from these sources to prove that these Hadith are not just a few isolated or unsupported cases. I have sorted Muhammad's statements concerning dogs into 5 categories. All of these illustrate different facets of his beliefs regarding dogs.


From Bukhari Vol. 4, #540

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: Allah's Apostle ordered that the dogs should be killed.

From Abu Dawud #2839

Abd Allah B. Mughaffal reported the apostle of Allah as saying: Were dogs not a species of creature I should command that they all be killed; but kill every pure black one.

The Hadith's note for #2839 says, "The prophet did not order the killing of all the dogs, for some are to be retained for hunting and watching. He ordered to kill the jet black ones. They might be more mischievous among them.

From Muslim #3814

Ibn Mughaffal reported: Allah's messenger ordered the killing of dogs and then said, "what is the trouble with them (the people of Medina? How dogs are nuisances to them (the citizens of Medina)? He then permitted keeping of dogs for hunting and (the protection of) herds. ...[and for] for the protection of cultivated land.

From Muslim #Number 055

Ibn Mughaffal reported: The Messenger of Allah ordered killing of the dogs, and then said: What about them, i. e. about other dogs? and then granted concession (to keep) the dog for hunting and the dog for (the security) of the herd, and said: When the dog licks the utensil, wash it seven times, and rub it with earth the eighth time.

From Muslim #3813

Abu Zubair heard Jabir Abdullah saying: Allah's messenger ordered us to kill dogs and we carried out this order so much so that we also killed the dog roaming with a women from the desert. Then Allah's apostle forbade their killing. He said: "It is your duty to kill the jet-black (dog) having two spots (on the eyes) for it is a devil.

The note for #3814 says,

"The Hadith gives us an idea why the prophet commanded to kill dogs. There must have been an excess of stray dogs and thus the danger of rabies in the city of Medina and its suburbs. The prophet therefore ordered to kill them. Later on when it was found that his Companions were killing them indiscriminately, he forbade them to do so and told them that only the ferocious beasts which were a source of danger to life should be killed. The word "Devil" in the Hadith clarifies this point. Here devil stands for ferocious.


From Muslim #5248

Maimuna reported that one morning Allahís Messenger was silent with grief. Maimuna said: Allahís Messenger, I find a change in your mood today. Allahís Messenger said: Gabriel had promised me that he would meet me tonight, but he did not meet me. By Allah, he never broke his promises, and Allahís Messenger spent the day in this sad mood. Then it occurred to him that there had been a puppy under their cot. He commanded and it was turned out. He then took some water in his hand and sprinkled it at that place. When it was evening Gabriel met him and he said to him: You promised me that you would meet me the previous night. He said: Yes, but we do not enter a house in which there is a dog or a picture. Then on that very morning he commanded the killing of the dogs until he announced that the dog kept for the orchards should also be killed, but he spared the dog meant for the protection of extensive fields or big gardens.


These Hadith tell the story of Muhammad's order to kill dogs. Muhammad said he would like to have all dogs killed. He wanted them killed, NOT because packs of dogs were tormenting the citizens of Medina, but rather, because a puppy stopped the mighty angel Gabriel. Muhammadís solution was to kill the dogs. He first said he wanted all dogs killed but then made exceptions for dogs that are used for farming, hunting, or watching (outside). Further, he ordered that all black dogs be killed and called them "a Satan".



From Bukhari Vol. 3, #299

Narrated 'Aun bin Abu Juhaifa: "My father bought a slave who practiced the profession of cupping. (My father broke the slave's instruments of cupping). I asked my father why he had done so. He replied, "The Prophet forbade the acceptance of the price of a dog or blood, and also forbade the profession of tattooing, getting tattooed and receiving or giving Riba, (usury), and cursed the picture-makers."

From Bukhari Vol. 3, #482

Narrated Abu Mas'ud Al-Ansari: "Allah's Apostle regarded illegal the price of a dog, the earnings of a prostitute, and the charges taken by a soothsayer."

From Muslim #3803

Abu Masud reported that Allah's messenger forbade the charging of price of the dog and earning of a prostitute and sweets offered to a kahin.


Muhammad believed that money made from the sale of a dog (for other than already mentioned purposes) was considered as evil as the money made from prostitution, witchcraft, or usury. Something about dogs disturbed Muhammad deeply.



From Bukhari Vol. 3, #515

Narrated Abu Huraira: "Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever keeps a dog, one Qirat of the reward of his good deeds is deducted daily, unless the dog is used for guarding a farm or cattle." Abu Huraira (in another narration) said from the Prophet, "unless it is used for guarding sheep or farms, or for hunting." Narrated Abu Hazim from Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "A dog for guarding cattle or for hunting.""

From Muslim Number 3815:

Ibn Umar reported Allah's Messenger as saying: He who keeps a dog other than that meant for watching the herd or for hunting loses every day out of his deeds equal to two qirat.

From Muslim Number 2062:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger as saying: He who attends the funeral till the prayer is offered for (the dead), for him is the reward of one qirat, and he who attends (and stays) till he is buried, for him is the reward of two qirats. It was said: What are the qirats? He said: They are equivalent to two huge mountains. Two other narrators added: Ibn 'Umar used to pray and then depart (without waiting for the burial of the dead). When the tradition of Abu Huraira reached him, he said:" We have lost many qirats."


Having a dog as a pet is prohibited in Islam. In fact, if a Muslim keeps a dog as a pet God will take away some heavenly reward for his good deeds! Notice that the amount taken away changed from one to two qirats.



From Bukhari Vol. 1, #490

Narrated 'Aisha: "The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, "Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people)." I said, "You have made us (i.e. women) dogs. I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in my bed between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I would slip away, for I disliked to face him.""

From Muslim Number 1032

Abu Dharr reported: The Messenger of 'Allah said: When any one of you stands for prayer and there is a thing before him equal to the back of the saddle that covers him and in case there is not before him (a thing) equal to the back of the saddle, his prayer would be cut off by (passing of an) ass, woman, and black Dog. I said: O Abu Dharr, what feature is there in a black dog which distinguish it from the red dog and the yellow dog? He said: O, son of my brother, I asked the Messenger of Allah as you are asking me, and he said: The black dog is a devil.

From Abu Dawud Number 0704:

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:

Ikrimah reported on the authority of Ibn Abbas, saying: I think the Apostle of Allah said: When one of you prays without a sutrah, a dog, an ass, a pig, a Jew, a Magian, and a woman cut off his prayer, but it will suffice if they pass in front of him at a distance of over a stone's throw.


These hadith state that if a dog passes in front of people praying it annuls their prayer. Annul means, "to reduce to nothing", or "to make ineffective or inoperative". If a group of people are praying and a dog walks in-between them and the Kaba (in Mecca), then their prayer is made null and void.



From Bukhari Vol. 4, #448

Narrated Abu Talha: "I heard Allah's Apostle saying; "Angels (of Mercy) do not enter a house wherein there is a dog or a picture of a living creature (a human being or an animal).""

From Bukhari Vol. 7, #843

Narrated Salim's father: "Once Gabriel promised to visit the Prophet but he delayed and the Prophet got worried about that. At last he came out and found Gabriel and complained to him of his grief (for his delay). Gabriel said to him, "We do not enter a place in which there is a picture or a dog.""

From Muslim, #5276:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger as saying: Angels do not accompany the travelers who have with them a dog and a bell.

From Muslim, #5279:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger as saying: "The bell is the musical instrument of Satan."


The story behind these hadith was mentioned earlier. A little puppy stopped an angel from entering the house because it was "unclean". Note that angels do not enter a place with a dog, or accompany people who travel with a dog.


bob m (32)
Friday September 7, 2012, 7:42 am

Dogs annuling prayer .. that would be in the same dept. pertaining to "cleanliness", as pretty much everything to do with another filtyhy mongrel... "woman";... would it not?.......Make sure now that your left foot knows what yer right foot is doing... bathroom ettiquettes for the Grace challenged superstitious..

Vlasta M (7)
Friday September 7, 2012, 7:56 am
Before dealing with the Islamism in our midst, we should send our Muslim Bro in the White house out in November, to his Muslim half-brothers in Kenya, his Muslim Brothers in Egypt or to his king in Saudi Arabia.

Americans are waking up to Barak Hussein Obama cavorting with the Islamists of Muslim Brotherhood, with their genocidal, misogynistic and supremacist ideology of hate, and his helping CAIR and OIC white wash Islam as a "peaceful relligion", which is total lie, as anybody who had read Koran and Hadith and history of Islam KNOWS. Islam is incompatible with either US Constitution or with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and has no place in ANY society that respects freedom and human rights of individuals.

American ARE waking up to Barak Hussein Obama Marxist Islamist ideologies, which belong to a dung-heap of history and NOT to America, since the history and current events had shown that they create dysfunctional societies of fanatics and sluggards who blame others for their own dysfunction. . Obama will be gone in November, and then our nice animal friends will be free again to romp around undisturbed by those who hate our freedom and human rights (and animal rights).

Barak Hussein is a great story teller who managed to use white guilt and political correctness to fool US in 2008, but no more!

Kit B (276)
Friday September 7, 2012, 8:09 am

Excellent comment Nyack, history, intermingling of cultures and learning acceptance happens gradually. We are focused on Muslims as the bad guys because of a tiny few of the people that are terrorists. We then condemn the whole culture, a culture and religion we as Americans are learning about through articles and propaganda that targets the worst offensives. The reality is that we in the "developed" countries are only recently showing much interest the welfare of animals. Spain, Romania and even the US have a long way to go in displaying true concern for the welfare of those animals we call pets. For goodness sake, do you not read the hundreds of petitions about the violence perpetrated against dogs and cats here in the United States?

That does not make this situation any better or easier to take, but all things must be put into perspective.

berny p (23)
Friday September 7, 2012, 9:56 am
Simple solution for ALL Islamists. Get the hell out & live in an Islamic country.

Past Member (0)
Friday September 7, 2012, 10:07 am
Can we really hope to change people with so much hatred and fear within our own hearts? I think not.

I find religion, all religion, to be perfectly useless and I would very much like for everyone to leave it behind in the sewer of history. That being said, nothing is gained by insults or threats, much less demands for anyone to "get the hell out." You cannot open the mind of someone whose face you have slapped.

Maybe many religionists are beyond reach and too ideologically programmed to change, but we don't know until we try. We need to emphasize those things, such as love of good food or love of family, as common ground that all human beings tend to share. From there, we can build a foundation for persuasion and support anyone's efforts to think rationally until they reach a point where they can finally think critically about religion. People don't change over night. Every movement is essentially a generational movement. It will take time to guide people away from dogma and superstition.

monica r (41)
Friday September 7, 2012, 2:33 pm
Brian, that's fine. Go hug a muslim if that's what you want to do. But I'm just being honest here. If it was MY dog shot dead or poisoned, I'd be wanting to do a lot more than "slap their face" nor would I give a damn about opening their mind. Teaching them a lesson, maybe, but that's not precisely the same thing, is it?

Prosecuting and suing are a first step, since it's against the law to kill someone's dog like that. But I expect there are others who might take matters into their own hands. I don't condone it, but as someone who feels a pet is just a very hairy family member with 4 legs, I absolutely understand why they might resort to something more, shall we say, clear and emphatic, to let the local mohammedans know that we don't torture and kill other peoples' pets here.

Past Member (0)
Friday September 7, 2012, 2:44 pm
Just because you're hiding your anti-Muslim prejudice behind animal cruelty issues doesn't make it right. I am against animal cruelty. I'm simply saying anti-Muslim rhetoric neither educates Muslims nor prevents animal cruelty. If you had read the article, then you might have noticed that the dog in the article, Shiba, was neither "shot dead or poisoned." So what justifies your blind hatred?

I don't respect any religion. I have no desire to hug a Muslim anymore than I would want to hug a Christian or a bigot such as yourself. And, if you don't "give a damn about opening their mind," then how can you expect anything but confrontation? Of course,if that is what you want, then I'm sure that you'll go out of your way to find it.

I don't think special accommodations should be made for any religion, but that doesn't mean we need to start carrying pitchforks and torches. Inflammatory rhetoric only means you like to hear yourself talk.

Stan B (123)
Friday September 7, 2012, 4:46 pm
The salient point of David Solway's article isn't to criticize Muslims for not liking dogs: that's their choice.
What's much more important is the presumption of a minority group that they have the right to tell the majority how to conduct their lives.
This kind of presumption is almost unknown to my knowledge. Most minority groups are just happy to keep their heads down and become accepted into the country that has given them refuge and a home. Unfortunately, it's not the case with many Muslims.
Brian M. You missed the point completely.

patrica and edw jones (190)
Friday September 7, 2012, 7:09 pm
The arrogance of Islam is legendary and confronting. They have a visceral dislike of anything western society hold's dear. The story of Shiba is only the tip of the iceberg....Islam seeks to control and shape everything we say and do and our Governments appear blind to this parasitic invasion. Animals do not like Muslims - they can sense the cruelty in them - they are far wiser than we give them credit for. Thanks Stan.

Past Member (0)
Friday September 7, 2012, 8:27 pm
My dear friend Stan.Thank You so very much for yur post.. I must say if they had approached me, not only would I have laughed in their faces, but lets just say they would have eaten a mouth full of sand. Dogs unclean ?! Um excuse me !!! And guys that goes for "anyone of any race or religion" who wants to try and force thier religious belief or practices on me.

Robert B (60)
Friday September 7, 2012, 8:59 pm
Another example of total ignorance promoted by outdated traditions and religious BS. The only thing unclean here is the arrogance of these two women. They have no right to tell a person of western culture to bow down to silly archaic religious dogma. Religious beliefs ARE PERSONAL, KEEP IT TO YOURSELF, there is NO RIGHT to impose it on others.

Aimee Polekoff (0)
Friday September 7, 2012, 9:01 pm
Whoa, why so much hate? These women were being unfair, but does that make an attack on all Muslims justified?Many of you do not seem to understand Islam at all. A pagan religion? Um, "Allah" just means "God" in Arabic. Christians in Arabic speaking areas use the word "Allah" as well. The Jewish, Christian, and Muslim God is the same figure. All murderers? Ok, that is ridiculous. Yeah, every single Muslim has killed someone, even the children. There's several Muslims on my college campus, and I'm pretty sure they aren't murderers. They don't have a problem with dogs either. Just because the Quran, a book written more than a thousand years ago, says something about dogs being dirty animals doesn't mean that every Muslim believes that, no more than a Christian is likely to believe in silly things the Bible says.

By the way, I'm not a Muslim. I just don't like a few extreme people's opinions being believed to be the entire group's opinions.

Gysele van Santen (213)
Friday September 7, 2012, 9:16 pm
this is a touchy subject. why Muslims (most) don't like dogs, i don't understand. they don't know what they're missing. is it because it was written in a book that they're unclean? it sounds closed-minded. as a dog lover it's beyond me & i'm sorry, but if those ladies approcached me i'd have to agree with my friend Milkah & left them choking on sand.

Marie W (67)
Friday September 7, 2012, 9:35 pm
Let them all stay in "Islamic countries"- which are basically hell-holes of their own making. Their my way or the highway attitude infuriates me. I do not want my country, state, town, neighborhood turned into another hell-hole.

Billie C (2)
Friday September 7, 2012, 11:06 pm
muslims need to be informed this is how we live here if you don't like it go to some muslim country that meets your needs. they leave their hell holes to "come someplace better" then turn around and want us to live what they left. until muslims are walled off from the rest of the world and left to do whatever it is to each other the world will be at risk. there is no reason for us to change our ways to suit them. if they can't even learn that animals are loved members of families here there is no hope for them. those girls should have just kept their mouths shut and moved on.

Past Member (0)
Friday September 7, 2012, 11:16 pm
There is no such thing as a spiritually impure animal! All animals are sinless, and the Old Testament holds that animals are teachers to human beings. People are the ones who are corrupt and impure!

Past Member (0)
Friday September 7, 2012, 11:20 pm
Job 12:7-10

7 ďBut ask the animals, and they will teach you,
or the birds in the sky, and they will tell you;
8 or speak to the earth, and it will teach you,
or let the fish in the sea inform you.
9 Which of all these does not know
that the hand of the Lord has done this?
10 In his hand is the life of every creature
and the breath of all mankind."

cecily w (0)
Friday September 7, 2012, 11:31 pm
I have known some Muslims who do not hate dogs, I have known some Muslims who were not arrogant. There are unsufferable idiotic bigots in most religions. THAT SAID, perhaps it's past time to vet the "opinions" of visa applicants more thoroghly. This should be done again at the time of citizenship. filing.

I don't know about Canada, but sometimes it seems that the U.S. just rubber stamps people through. Why the hurry? (Fewer than 9% of U.S. of the visas issued in 2010 were for refugees or asylees, so it's not as though the other 91% were being sentenced to death.if processing is delayed.)

Beyond that--and, again, I don't know about Canada--but the U.S. would be better off if there were more implicit and explicit applications of "Church & State" separation. I'm not anti-immigrant (truly), and am not anti-religion. It's fine to be a "melting pot", but care should be taken not to add poison to the cauldron.


Danuta W (1250)
Saturday September 8, 2012, 2:30 am

Michele Wilkinson (106)
Saturday September 8, 2012, 6:05 am
I have no problem with people having different religious beliefs from myself. I DO have a problem with people inflicting their religious beliefs on me and how I live my life. I'm afraid I have no time for people who have issues such as these with animals, whatever their religion may be.

paula eaton (30)
Saturday September 8, 2012, 6:37 am
Islam hates cats, dogs, pigs and they heartlessly torture and kill them with a smile and laugh. Tjis mentality is monsterous and outdated. They still murder animals to their religion.

Elaine Al Meqdad (283)
Saturday September 8, 2012, 8:57 am
Noted! And just let those burka wearing beyotches talk to me about my dog that way and order me to do anything...Let's just say I would have gladly went "Al Qaeda's" on their no good for nothing, flea infested, armpit braided, smelly arses!

Vicky P (476)
Saturday September 8, 2012, 12:38 pm
There are people of all shapes, sizes and colours that don't like animals, these people just might be one of them since I have met Muslims that have dogs and love dogs, so please, stop judging people based one or two stupid things.

. (0)
Saturday September 8, 2012, 1:22 pm
Kit, here to talk crap about me, you OWE me one BIG apology

Kit B (276)
Saturday September 8, 2012, 2:19 pm

Who or what is this esteban person and why would I owe it an apology? Ain't gonna happen.

To your point Stan, it is about minorities dictating ideas, then there is always some minority in the US, a new group moving from the shadows to make their case for what they believe. It can be understood as that, a group moving from the edges to make their voice known or it can viewed as a threat. Personally, I don't like threats, others like fights. In Canada, the US, Australia as in many other countries, we can not obey our own laws and tell others they have no voice, yet we can not tolerate our own laws being turned against us. Don't like dogs, then leave the beach? That might work for awhile but it misses the bigger picture. People are moving from theocratic countries to more democratic countries and are demanding a voice. Somewhere between the radical voices there is an answer an evolving solution.

At one time many did and still do consider pigs to be unclean, while many have them as pets.

Stephen Brian (23)
Saturday September 8, 2012, 6:10 pm
Hi everyone :)

I recently had a closely related discussion elsewhere (on the "anti-Care2" to which I sometimes refer here) about multiculturalism and a few relevant points emerged:

First, the conflict isn't exactly about non-Western Islamic cultures vs. Western cultures. It's about the Melting Pot vs. Multiculturalism. Minorities, whether or not Islamic, get special treatment as demonstrated in the example in Toronto and the "no go-zones" not from their own power, but from the power of supporters of modern multiculturalism who support legal recognition of different groups and that appropriate legal consideration be given.

Second, there is the danger of solutions arising, but not, as Kit said, "between the radical voices". Specifically, Anders Breivik offered a solution, so do modern Nazis, and so do Islamic supremacists. All radical groups offer solutions while others are still struggling to produce and propose one to the public. There is a very real danger that radicals' solutions will be applied before saner ones can be adopted.

Third, there is the fact that social progress only arises from the presence of diversity. Free civic discourse is the big engine for the development of solutions to social problems, but it needs a diversity of ideas to do its job. We only get such diversity from the presence of multiple cultures. I think I have written many times before on Care2 about my theory regarding post-Caliphate cultures and how their social progress slowed to a crawl centuries ago because they became culturally monolithic. (This is also why some Islamic cultures maintain superstitions about animals long after equivalent superstitions were dropped by Christians.)

Fourth, modern multiculturalism is not actually necessary for the maintenance of such diversity. Cultural diversity long predates modern multiculturalism. The argument, raised by someone whose name apparently tends to cause frothing reactions in liberal and progressive forums, is that legal recognition of different groups effectively has nothing to do with maintenance of different cultures, but is actually about control. The question of who has what rights is, essentially, a zero-sum game. For example, my right not to have people expose themselves at me runs directly into their rights to dress (or not) as they please in public spaces. If group-rights dominate the law rather than individual-rights, then each group must maintain its group-rights or become repressed due to the "special treatment" given to everyone else. At that point, nobody dares anger the political elites, government, or whomever or face very politically acceptable oppression (with the political leaders removing the group's "special treatment" while theoretically maintaining the members' individual rights which are at that point a legal fiction as they are constantly overridden by others' group-rights).

What does everyone here think about these?

monica r (41)
Sunday September 9, 2012, 4:24 pm
Brian M

It would be helpful if you read the article AND comments before spouting off. Shiba wasn't shot or poisoned, but pet dogs in Spain are being poisoned, and in Canada the threat of shooting dogs if their people walk them, has been made. Try to pay attention.

A bigot is someone who hates certain people for no logical reason, and I don't hate muslims, or any other group. I do hate the ideology of islam because of it's inherent animal cruelty, much as I hate the factory farming industry for it's inherent animal cruelty. I hate it for it's requisite denigration and subjugation of women, just as I hate the ideology of some right in America that women's value is just as bearing children, or that women (especially minority women) somehow are less deserving of equal pay or equal rights, or even self-determination.

I would hardly refer to educating myself about these ideologies and standing for the rights of those oppressed by these ideologies as "blind hatred."

And please pay attention. I said IF MY DOG WAS KILLED by these people demanding everyone else adhere to their religious beliefs, that I wouldn't be interested in "opening their minds" but rather teaching them a lesson. My dogs, and even my rats, have always been part of the family, and it would take a lot to handle my devastation of such a loss of an animal so dear to me without seeking revenge, but I would try to pursue legal avenues.

If you can't understand those feelings, I'm sorry you have missed out on meaningful relationships with animals, but if you don't "get it" and see animals as "things" then it just can't be explained to you.

Wednesday September 12, 2012, 2:49 pm
Nyack Clancy get a life! We are talking about problems in the year 2012 and not discussing a history lesson. We may be able to do something about today's problems but unless you have a time machine we cannot do much about the Dark Ages or does that fact escape you?

Carol Dreeszen (346)
Wednesday September 12, 2012, 4:02 pm
Simple solution for ALL Islamists. Get the hell out & live in an Islamic country....AMEN to this!!!!

Saturday September 15, 2012, 5:59 am
I have experienced this same kind of tolerance, love, understanding, kindness (add your own mushy wushy wording here) from our Islamic friends in South Africa when walking my dog. By the way the mushy wushy stuff only applies if you totally agree with our Islamic brothers and sisters in every way on every quirk.
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