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Loose Change - Patriots Day or American Coup?


US Politics & Gov't  (tags: Loose Change, coup, Patriots Day, 9-11, fraudulent elections, Supreme Court )

Dandelion
- 343 days ago - youtube.com
9/11 should have been a wake up call although not for the reasons we are spoon fed by the gigantic propaganda machine of our new corporate government. The previous year 2000 election fraud with Supreme Court interference was just the start.



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Comments

Dandelion G. (385)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 6:40 am
I realize this is a movie. Please come back with your feedback after having watched it.
 

James Travers (45)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 11:43 am
Operation Northwood. If that doesn't make this "conspiracy" clear to everyone I don't know what will. The evidence is overwhelming and I don't say that lightly because I did not want to believe this and have been trying to find a reason to doubt for several years. I still can't quite fit the pieces together as to why the government did it and why the NSA is closing the noose around us. Logically there is only one possible reason and it scares the crap out of me. And it isn't just to gain control of the populace because Capitalism had already done that to a major extent. I suspect it is the same thing that George W Bush told Obama in that little meeting after O's first election. The thing that made him completely change course from his campaign promises.
 

Birgit W. (144)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 12:35 pm
I actually watched this long video, and I believed each word of it. Our whole world has been taken over by the evil cabals. God help us!
Thanks Dandelion.
 

David B. (14)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 12:50 pm
Thanks for posting this Dandelion... What an amazing coincidence... I watched this on local (Oz)TV 3 hours ago.Was going to search and copy but you've found it for me...

I studied engineering in my checkered career(s) and have been a member of AE9/11TRUTH for many years now. There has never been any doubt in my mind that this fiasco was a controlled demolition, especially building #7 which was not hit by a plane but decided to crash anyway.

Some of my friends (who have not bothered to check out the facts) think I am just a conspiracy theory nut but if anyone who has bothered to watch this movie still believes the official explanation is either lacking in logic or brains... So will copy and make them watch it... It is a superb production.

Check out the AE9/!!Truth site. The proof is all there but this has far more impact than the gruesome facts in text and is probably the easiest way to educate my un-educated TV watching friends of the mindless electronic age we now live in.

Thanks again, this is a later version than the one I watched... Will copy and push it down a few throats.

Was this shown on US TV? :)
 

Caitlin Mac Iver (102)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 12:50 pm
I haven't watched this video yet, but I certainly already can echo Birgit's comment above. God help us! (And I'm not even a believer!)
 

David B. (14)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 1:03 pm
Watch it Caitlin, you will very quickly become a 'believer'
 

Dandelion G. (385)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 1:03 pm
I believe the film was aired once on television David, but do not know if it was more than once.
 

Angelika R. (146)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 2:25 pm
Thx Sheryl for posting this, I did watch most of it but they speak so fast that I didn't understand much of it. So I cannot really confirm or deny that this was more convincing to me than any of the other many videos,articles, posts etc I have previously seen and read with evidence that this was an inside job which I have always believed ever since. And like James T., I didn't really want to at first. His last 2 sentences confuse me, wish he could clarify that?
 

Ros G. (90)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 3:01 pm
Thanks Dandelion for this, much admit that I have never really watched or even taken much notice of the events in America on that day. I do know that millions of Australians were glued to the "telly" watching it over and over again and in terrible shock about the scenes, etc... I feel sorry for those that lost their lives, were maimed and permanently traumatized and I probably won't get around to watching this either. From the snippets that did catch my interest..I wondered where all this would lead and why..the truth eventually comes out but too late for most.
 

Dandelion G. (385)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 3:12 pm
What happened on 9-11 has had reverberations around the world....and not in positive ways. So this is really about all of us.

I understand Angelika, if English is not ones' first language, he does speak rather quickly. This film ties up a lot of information into one place.
 

Ros G. (90)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 3:45 pm
And the brainwashing started with the mass media coverage that was beamed around the world constantly for 24 hours..after the attack.......maybe a little subliminal messaging thrown in too??? It's almost impossible to un-do this once it's set in the minds of people. Old tactics still work and that's why anyone that dares put up alternative thinking is called "a conspirator, insane,leftist" and if you tell the truth..you get hounded as a "traitor". Best not to get reeled in - in the first place.
 

Just Carole (341)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 3:50 pm


Thanks, Sheryl.

For the longest time after 9-11-01, I became totally irate about people stating that it was inside job. (It was incomprehensible to me that my own government would wreak such havoc and killing on their own citizens.)

Then, a close friend of mine -- John-Michael Talboo, who has done exhaustive research -- patiently spoon-fed me information (including this video) proving that the official account was not only false . . . but is technically impossible.

When I finally allowed my mind to wrap around the truth, it changed me. Totally saddened, I had to wonder what other lies I'd bought.

I'll never blindly accept the "official story" from this government again without question.

 

Rose NoFWDSPLZ (273)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 3:52 pm
Lest we forget
 

Just Carole (341)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 4:28 pm
From Global Research:
 
9/11: Twelve Years of War, Lies and Deception
 
Twelve years after the 9/11 attacks, no credible independent investigation has been done to find out what really happened on that day and who was responsible. Independent journalists and researchers have demonstrated, however, that the official version of the event is nothing but a cover-up, an opinion shared by the co-chairs of the 9/11 Commission, Thomas H. Kean and Lee H. Hamilton, who declared the Commission was “set up to fail”.
 
In fact, 9/11 was a starting point for even more atrocities and was used as a pretext for numerous wars in which too many people have lost their lives or their loved ones. A horrendous theater of the absurd has ensued over the years; as strange as it may seem, today the U.S. is openly supporting Al Qaeda offshoots in the Middle East to further its imperial design, as we have seen in Libya and Syria.
 
Global Research has been publishing a tremendous amount of articles on the 9/11 attacks and the so-called War on Terror. Today we put together a list of the latest news related to 9/11 and important reports published over the years, which are still relevant today.
 
Click here for our 9/11 & War on Terrorism dossier.
 

SJ J. (116)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 4:34 pm
Thanks so much Dandelion. I shall watch carefully later.
 

Lona Goudswaard (68)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 4:35 pm
The moment the twin towers fell I had my doubts. I'm no engineer, but it just seemed impossible that two buildings imploded on themselves after they were hit by planes near the top, not the bottom. And the third, unrelated building that fell in an identical way, really was very fishy. I"d seen an earlier version of Loose Change a couple of years ago and had the same reaction as I did now: I just don't want to believe it, its one of those nut-job conspiracies, but it so compelling...

The thing that still withholds me from believing it all is not the how, but the why. I can't get my head around all these people sacrificed for an insurance scam, inside trading and a pot of gold. That may have been nice collateral gain for people with inside knowledge, but I can't believe it is the reason. The Patriot Act, Afghanistan, Iraq? Maybe, but was there to gain? And look what a mess it is now.

One little thing. In version 4 they should get rid of the text that says the man in the video isn't the left-handed Osama Bin Laden, because he writes and eats with his right hand. All Muslims eat with their right hand, with the left is a religious offence! A little detail like that can make the doubt rise to the surface again.
 

Robert K. (31)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 4:58 pm
I don't believe for a second that the government did this, but I also know there were warnings to administration officials not to use commercial airline traffic for some weeks before it happened. And sending nearly all our interceptors out of the country right in time for this and seizing all the control tower tapes from the incidents tells me that the Bush administration was up to its' eyeballs in a cover up.

The scumbag PNAC boys got their excuse.
 

Terry V. (30)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 4:59 pm
I think it's called we're getting screwed and not enjoying it
 

Just Carole (341)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 5:02 pm

Thanks for the unexpected chuckle, Terry.

(Yeah, there is no fury like that of disappointed lovers. LOL)

 

Brian M. (145)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 5:03 pm
9-11 actually is the anniversary of an American coup: on this day in 1973, the US, specifically the CIA, assisted in the overthrow of the democratically-elected government of Salvador Allende in Chile. The US supported the brutal military regime of Gen. Pinochet.
 

Just Carole (341)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 5:09 pm

That is a good point, Brian.

When you consider the trigger-happy finger of U.S. government in destroying the lives of civilians in other countries (mostly women and children); and add in the fact that WE have a stockpile of WMD's (but want every other country to relinquish theirs) . . . doesn't paint a humanitarian picture.

Instead, it permeates with the stench of imperialism.

 

Lauren Kozen (157)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 5:11 pm
Noted & Shared. Thanks so much for posting Dandelion.
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 5:12 pm
Can someone explain to me the sequence of events when building 7 went down?
 

Just Carole (341)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 5:17 pm

And, let's be real here . . .

This country was founded by murder of any people who tried to defend their rights to live without subjugation by invaders (starting with my own ancestors, Native Americans).

Remember your history. Events like genocide and horrific mass destruction (including Hiroshima and Nagasaki -- as well as all the other constant wars since, such as Korea, Vietnam (recall Agent Orange), Iraq, Afghanistan, et al.) were applauded as "victories."

It's time to stop the carnage.

 

Christeen Anderson (473)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 5:17 pm
Great post.
 

Just Carole (341)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 5:19 pm

And, MJM, Building 7 is the PROOF that this was a manufactured inside threat, in order to inculcate fear (and obedience). There IS NO plausible reason for its collapse; it was never hit!

 

Jennifer C. (172)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 5:31 pm
Thanks for this article.
 

Just Carole (341)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 5:31 pm
 
Another excellent resource:
 
Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth
 
 
 

Lois Jordan (54)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 5:32 pm
Noted w/many thanks for posting, Dandelion. I'd heard of Loose Change, but haven't taken the time to watch yet. I definitely will come back, though.
A few years ago, though, AE911TRUTH (mentioned in above comments) brought their message here to Tucson. They had a fairly large response.....I even took a couple of my kids. I signed their petition & passed it around to others. Hundreds of architects and engineers have signed. They are plastering billboards around, too....a growing group. The evidence is there.
 

Lois Jordan (54)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 5:38 pm
Forgot to mention that the summer prior to 9/11, all American-based airlines were telling their crews to take careful watch of their I.D.s and uniforms while flying in Europe....
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 5:38 pm
Seismic forces bring buildings down all the time. Don't get me wrong. I believe there are powers that be in government that are capable of this kind of evil and worse. What I saw in the film was mainly supposition, speculation, irrelevant comparisons and coincidences. Because of so many different versions of the conspiracy, it's hard to get answers to some questions. Some say they weren't even commercial aircraft. If not, where are the people that were on those flights? Didn't their relatives talk to many of them on cell phones? How many people would have to actually have knowledge of the conspiracy? When have that many people ever been able to all keep their mouths shut? This would requires thousands of people to keep their mouths shut, wouldn't it?
 

Just Carole (341)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 5:41 pm

Hey, MJM . . .

It's almost as if your words were my own, before I did extensive research.

(I was in tears for days, once I accepted these suspicions as truth.)

Read!

 

Just Carole (341)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 5:49 pm

Another thing:

Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth is composed of experts, who, after reading the "official response," felt honor-bound, due to the integrity of their field of expertise, to (bravely) challenge what they felt was incongruous.

They had no other motive, other than to defend the science they practice.

 

Dandelion G. (385)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 5:50 pm
Is why I placed this on here. It isn't the be all or end all, but do your own research. I too was reluctant at first, it wasn't anything I wanted as a truth. This is crazy I thought. But now the longer we are away from the actual event and my seeing so many other things unfolding since 9-11 it makes more sense all the time.
 

David B. (14)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 5:52 pm
WTC Building #7, a 47-story high-rise not hit by an airplane, exhibited all the characteristics of classic controlled demolition with explosives:

Rapid onset of collapse

Sounds of explosions

Symmetrical structural failure

Free-fall acceleration through the path of what was greatest resistance

Imploded, collapsing completely, landing almost in its own footprint

Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic-like clouds

Expert corroboration from the top European controlled demolition professional

Foreknowledge of "collapse" by media, NYPD, FDNY

In the aftermath of WTC7's destruction, strong evidence of demolition using incendiary devices was discovered:

FEMA finds rapid oxidation and intergranular melting on structural steel samples
Several tons of molten metal reported by numerous highly qualified witnesses
Chemical signature of the incendiary thermite found in solidified molten metal, and dust samples
WTC7 exhibited none of the characteristics of destruction by fire:

Slow onset with large visible deformations
Asymmetrical collapse which follows the path of least resistance (laws of conservation of momentum would cause a falling, to the side most damaged by the fires)
Evidence of fire temperatures capable of softening steel
High-rise buildings with much larger, hotter, and longer lasting fires have never collapsed

As seen in this revealing photo, the Twin Towers' destruction exhibited all of the characteristics of destruction by explosives: (http://www.ae911truth.org/)

Destruction proceeds through the path of greatest resistance at nearly free-fall acceleration

Improbable symmetry of debris distribution

Extremely rapid onset of destruction

Over 100 first responders reported explosions and flashes

Multi-ton steel sections ejected laterally

Mid-air pulverization of 90,000 tons of concrete & metal decking

Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic-like clouds

1200-foot-diameter debris field: no "pancaked" floors found

Isolated explosive ejections 20–40 stories below demolition front

Total building destruction: dismemberment of steel frame

Several tons of molten metal found under all 3 high-rises

Evidence of thermite incendiaries found by FEMA in steel samples

Evidence of explosives found in dust samples

The three high-rises exhibited none of the characteristics of destruction by fire:

Slow onset with large visible deformations

Asymmetrical collapse which follows the path of least resistance (laws of conservation of momentum would cause a falling, intact, from the point of plane impact, to the side most damaged by the fires)

Evidence of fire temperatures capable of softening steel

HIGH-RISE BUILDINGS WITH MUCH LARGER, HOTTER AND LOGER-LASTING FIRES HAVE NEVER COLLAPSED.

REF: http://www.ae911truth.org/
 

Just Carole (341)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 6:01 pm

Thank you, David.

(I wish more people would conduct research . . . rather than emotionally react.)

 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 6:09 pm
How many people would have to be in on this conspiracy?
 

Elderberry C. (47)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 6:10 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEsesnzDBvA Bill Cooper predicted 9-11 (it cost him his life)
 

David B. (14)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 6:50 pm
Thanks Just Carole...Couldn't agree more. --- Here is the AE9/11TRUTH PETITION:

The AE9/11TRUTH Petition: Please sign this petition - 9/11 Was More Than Likely An Inside Job and We Kneed To Know The Truth.

TO THE MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AND OF THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

Please Take Notice That:

On Behalf of the People of the United States of America, the undersigned Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth and affiliates hereby petition for, and demand, a truly independent investigation with subpoena power in order to uncover the full truth surrounding the events of 9/11/01 - specifically the collapses of the World Trade Center Towers and Building 7. We believe there is sufficient doubt about the official story and therefore the 9/11 investigation must be re-opened and must include a full inquiry into the possible use of explosives that might have been the actual cause of the destruction of the World Trade Center Twin Towers and Building 7.

Sincerely,

The Undersigned

http://www.care2.com/news/member/900818492/3640886
 

Diane K. (136)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 7:16 pm
Added to my Youtube to watch later. thx Dandelion
 

Mm M. (448)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 7:33 pm
Yes, this will be watched! TU dear Dande.
 

SusanAWAY Allen (221)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 7:51 pm
I've been a 9/11 truther for years. There are so many other films out there in addition to Loose Change that are available and should definitely be checked out. The very best one that gives the best information is 9/11 Mysteries which can be found at: http://youtu.be/2O7LwySqtr4; to get the basics, 9/11 Press for Truth found at: http://youtu.be/iMT2CHSvyGw is quite good as well. Loose Change was the first movie, which was released and it had a few inconsistencies. Loose Change was re-released, with some corrections; however 9/11 Mysteries really is the best one. Some websites that are also excellent are: Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth which was already linked above (http://www.ae911truth.org/); Pilots for 9/11 Truth (http://pilotsfor911truth.org/) and the Pilots for 9/11 Truth Forum (http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/). I would strongly encourage anyone who is still on the edge of believing to at least check out some of these. As has been mentioned, there is a multitude of evidence out there, but nothing ever seems to come of it. I'm almost surprised anyone even cares about this anymore. I mean it seems like forever since I've even heard this discussed. I grew tired of hearing the government throw 9/11 in our face everytime they wanted to erode away more of our freedoms or used as an excuse for anything they wanted to do. I almost wanted to scream everytime I heard 9/11 uttered. Thanks for posting this Sheryl.
 

Laurie H. (703)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 9:30 pm
Thank you so much Sheryl for this fantastic, timely, film and will finish viewing tomorrow---"God' help us all~~~
 

Edith B. (142)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 9:35 pm
This is horrifying.
 

Rose NoFWDSPLZ (273)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 9:40 pm
Thanks for links Carole, we all deserve the truth !!
 

Deb E. (64)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 10:08 pm
And Lee Harvey Oswald shot President Kennedy by himself, even though many eye witnesses saw a second shot fired from another point, and the video of the President shows he was hit from two different directions. And then his brother gets gunned down and again, we are supposed to believe it was a lone gunman that did it, and then ... should we go here? His son. Jackie took her children and practically fled this country. She begged her children never to go into politics. John Jr says he is going to go into politics and what happened to him? Accident? And then Caroline says she will go into politics and then just as quickly bows out. Threats, maybe? I don't doubt for one minute that the powers which control this country are capable of anything. Anything. And there were threats of going into Syria when we were in Iraq. They've been wanting that war a long time, too. If you hadn't heard about how the pressure has been building to go into Syria before this latest announcement about chemical weapons being used, check out this article ... http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/16/world/middleeast/syrian-war-fueling-attacks-by-al-qaeda-in-iraq-officials-say.html?_r=0
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 10:32 pm
US defense contractors were involved in Syria gas attack: American investigative journalist Jeffrey Silverman says he has information showing US defense contractors were "directly or indirectly" involved in last month’s chemical weapons attack in Syria.
 

Arild Warud (163)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 3:32 am
Will watch asap,thanks Sheryl.
 

Edwin M. (366)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 5:29 am
Just reinforces my beliefs as to what truly happened and continues to happen in our Country. Thank you Sheryl
 

Giana Peranio-Paz (379)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 5:39 am
This theory is very hard to accept because it shows us how much we have no control over what happens around us and how the persons we elect for office democratically can do what ever they want and feed us all the lies they want and how gullible we are! This is really scary, but I believe all politics are rotten all over the world and nothing should surprise any of us anymore.
 

Abdessalam Diab (153)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 8:50 am
An excellent post Cheryl > 12 years have passed and there is more to be revealed about this mystery . Is it really a mystery or every thing is almost clear now?
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 9:35 am
9/11 Pentagon Attack Eyewitness Mike Walter

http://www.ae911truth.info - Evidence even people called architects can mislead.

Structure Magazine explains one probable cause of the WTC 7 collapse. "Single Point of Failure: How the Loss of One Column May Have Led to the Collapse of WTC 7"

http://www.structuremag.org/Archives/2007-11/SF-WTC7-Gilsanz-Nov07.pdf

Conspiracy theorists say World Trade Center 7 is the best proof for controlled demolition because it wasn't hit by airliners and only had a few fires. They also claim that there was a confession from the building owner who said he "pulled" it. But this is deceptive because while building 7 wasn't hit by an airliner, it was hit by the large perimeter columns of the Tower collapse. It was 400 ft away but the towers were more than 1300 ft tall. As the tower peeled open, it easily tilted over to reach building 7. Below is evidence showing that conspiracy theorists are wrong.

Carol and David, the research you asked me to do isn't doing a lot to bolster the conspiracy theorists claims. Have you considered any evidence at all to the contrary of your positions? There appears to by concrete rebuttals to most of your claims.
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 9:49 am
Are you folks claiming a missile hit the Pentagon and not a commercial jetliner? If so, where are the people from that flight? How many people would have to be in on this conspiracy to pull it off? And why can't I ever get a straight answer to any of these questions? The only answer I ever get is 'building 7'.
 

Just Carole (341)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 9:52 am
 
[Excerpt from:  Has Questioning 9/11 become more Acceptable?]
 
Contrary to how the US media has presented them, movements that have questioned 9/11 continue to gather momentum and are often led by increasingly vocal scientists and academics that claim the account presented in the official 9/11 Commission report could not possibly be accurate. Take for example, the irregular rapid onset of destruction exhibited by the Twin Towers and WTC7 that collapsed at nearly free fall speed, indicating that the structural integrity of these buildings had to have been comprised, and that office fires could not have been the sole cause of the collapse. One can recall seeing the massive steel sections ejecting outwards from the building as it collapsed, indicating explosions from within; numerous witness testimonies also corroborate these claims.
 
Consider that the NYPD discovered several tons of molten metal in the debris, which office fires have never historically produced. What I consider to be some of the most compelling evidence was published in a peer-reviewed study issued by the Open Chemical Physics Journal in 2009 that confirmed the presence of highly explosive thermitic chips present in the dust samples produced by the destruction of the World Trade Centre.
 
The 9/11 Commission was chartered to provide a full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the attacks, but even former commission vice-chairman Lee Hamilton wrote an article in the New York Times in 2008 describing how the CIA obstructed the 9/11 investigations, destroyed evidence, and failed to respond to the commission’s own lawful requests for information – plus it’s also widely known that the 9/11 Commission report relies heavily on torture testimony.
 
Other such as Allen M. Poteshman of the University of Illinois have noted the unprecedented buying of put options in the days prior to 9/11, indicating foreknowledge and insider trading on American Airlines and United Airlines. As far as scientific evidence goes, several advocacy organizations have given NIST and the 9/11 Commission a run for their money, the most prominent beingArchitects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth, an association of over two thousand architects and engineers that has recently raised enough funding to do something that would have been unthinkable a few years ago – putting a billboard up in Times Square encouraging others to “rethink” the events of 9/11.
 
 
 

Dandelion G. (385)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 10:01 am
Thank you Carole and David for stepping up with information. Sorry MJ M, I'm down with a cold and flu and did good to get the story on and I really can't do much more than that at this time.
 

Just Carole (341)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 10:08 am

And MJM . . . Speaking only for myself, I am not pretending to know everything about how all of it was carried out. I am only stating that there is an abundance of evidence questioning (and in some cases, proving beyond any doubt) that the official report was impossible.

That, alone, should give a critical thinker pause to wonder: "Why lie?" "Why doesn't the government encourage an independent study?" "With 50% of Americans now agreeing that it may have been an inside job, why hasn't mainstream media reported that?"



 

Elizabeth S. (149)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 10:35 am
Thanks Dandelion, I have been suspicious for quite some time since info started trickling out about explosives and controlled demolition theories. Bush and his cronies did have a lot to hide about their spending and hidden agendas and they should all be tried for crimes against humanity, fraud, murder...and much more.
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 11:22 am
When you say "...and in some cases, proving beyond any doubt", are you referring to building 7?

World Trade Center 7 Report Puts 9/11 Conspiracy Theory to Rest

Conspiracy theorists have long claimed that explosives downed World Trade Center 7, north of the Twin Towers. The long-awaited report from the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) conclusively rebuts those claims. Fire alone brought down the building, the report concludes, pointing to thermal expansion of key structural members as the culprit. The report also raises concerns that other large buildings might be more vulnerable to fire-induced structural failure than previously thought.


50% or more of Americans also believe that Unidentified Flying Objects are Extra Terrestrials, and that Intelligent Design explains our existence. Just sayin'.

 

Just Carole (341)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 11:28 am

I'm not here to convert you . . . and I stand strongly with my own beliefs.

Your choice is your choice. When you are presented with information -- in this case, from thousands of architects and engineers -- but choose to ignore it, good for you!

You're entitled to your opinion.

 

Past Member (0)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 11:31 am
Oh, and mainstream media doesn't report ANYTHING they should be reporting. Don't take that as proof of anything.
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 11:35 am
You can probably round up a thousand scientists that say man made global warming isn't occurring. That doesn't mean the million scientists that do believe it's occurring are wrong.
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 11:37 am
Here’s an analogy that might help explain where I’m coming from. Cannabis prohibition started as a huge conspiracy to end the competition of hemp. The anti-prohibitionists aren’t dwelling on, or focusing their efforts on convincing the world that that conspiracy is real. We are focusing on exposing the problems that came about because of the conspiracy. As with the 9/11 conspiracy, we should be talking about the destructive results of the ‘conspiracy’, the Patriot Act, the NSA, the NDAA, the huge growth of the Police State in America, the loss of all of our protections under the Constitution. How can we focus on correcting these things if we’re obsessing over something we can’t do anything about, even if it is true?
 

David C. (25)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 11:42 am
> Conspiracy theorists have long claimed that explosives downed World Trade Center 7...
Most Conspiracy theorists nowadays also believe that Earth orbits Sun -- that doesn't make Sun orbit Earth.

Proof of residues of cutting-edge-hightek explosives/incediaries(*) in WTC-dust are (peer-reviewed scientifically-as-can-get) published: ""Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe" in The Open Chemical Physics Journal, 2009, 2, p.7-31.


*) the difference between the two, and the merging of the two by said cutting-edge-hightek nano-Thermate were e.g. explained (excellently, imo) by Niels Harrit @ The Toronto Hearings
==

Richard Gage (1.5 min)
R. Gage, licensed architect and founder of "Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth" sums it up, and the way he argues, it's becomming really, really obvious: 9/11 was an Inside Job a 'controlled demolition', and executed with leading-edge-technology at that.
Richard Gage's full (~1.5 h) presentation
 

David C. (25)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 11:52 am
@MJM:
you have read NIST's report ? (me, i could only stomach parts of it. AND parts (of their 'simulations') were kept unpublished! ... )
you have read Harrit&al.'s paper ? (i have studied it)
can('t) you tell a difference ? (it was a striking one for me. The NIST-coverup contained rubbish which i commented as "wouldn't pass in a student's paper" -- in contrast to that, Harrit's work seemed carefully, thoroughly, attentively done - even for a scientific paper -- just my personal opinion as a mag.rer.nat.(Chemistry) )
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 12:12 pm
When is all of this 'proof positive' evidence going to end up in a court room? In the system we have to work with, isn't that the only place it will make any difference?

Hey, we can't even get indictments against Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the lot for PROVEN war crimes! Who are you going to jail for the 9/11 conspiracy?
 

Julie E. (347)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 1:14 pm
I don't know if I am ready to watch this. A part of me wants to. A lot of the comments posted are helping me to want to watch it and to believe it. Evil and deception of this magnitude scares the hell out of me! I will feel betrayed and lose trust. I already know it...

What should I to do or think about this video? Should I just admit that it is real if that's what I feel? I don't think it is going to be that easy. I will need some sort of closure. I don't want to be paranoid.
 

Just Carole (341)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 1:23 pm

Julie, I will give you my best advice (which I gave to myself, when uncertain).

You have nothing to lose by viewing the offerings here, but your illusions.

In my mind, I would prefer truth to propaganda.

Do I feel better because of it? Yes and no.

But, IMO, it's better to know the devil you live with and face reality.

Choose for yourself, my friend. I will not judge you.

 

Jude Hand (59)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 1:23 pm
Noted. Haven't yet watched the entire video. But experience with Dandelion's choices suggests that it's powerful.
 

Ros G. (90)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 2:39 pm
Thanks MJM..I understand where your coming from.."smoke and mirrors" ..if there are no charges laid against the "real" criminals..all it does is keeps a nation divided...UFO's ummm..now isn't that "Roswell"
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 3:26 pm
While we argue physics, chemistry, architecture and gravity, what are we being distracted from?
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 3:34 pm
I suppose this really shouldn't matter but doesn't anyone feel really creepy about crawling into bed with Alex Jones?
 

Dave C. (213)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 3:51 pm
not into conspiracies.....especially this one........sometimes society must wake up and face up to reality not being what they want.....
 

Dandelion G. (385)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 4:37 pm
I think Carole stated it well in her Sept. 12 at 1:23 comment. View it take what you will from it. I think it explains a lot of what we have today going on. You don't think so then so be it.

I don't consider it to be a conspiracy when there is a lot of factual information that came out. Are there still some loose ends, questions, that need answers, yes, but that shouldn't lead one to be so dismissive. There are many intellectuals that have placed their careers on line and have used their knowledge of chemistry, physics, architecture, been military personal adding weight to facts.

But if you want to blow it all off and throw the code word Alex Jones out to deflect those who might want to dig to the truth, then so be it. It's your Country too, stay in the dark or the light we each must make that choice.

Just remember this is the same Government that sold a lot of lives to their graves based on lies, lies to go into Iraq, lies to go into Vietnam, lies to do this and lies to do that. Why this couldn't be another big lie to turn events to someone's favor or a bunch of someone's by saying these people with their box cutters and some man in a cave managed to escape all our intelligence and fighter jets to ram some airplanes into these buildings and the pentagon just has to be the truth.

If that is what you are happy with then so be it. To me it stinks, to me there is a lot that doesn't add up, to me I'm digging deeper. This video is just one of many things that is offered to the public, take your pick or none at all.
 

Just Carole (341)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 4:42 pm

Brava, Sheryl!

 

Past Member (0)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 4:49 pm
Sheryl, you convinced me. So now, what do we do about it?
 

Dandelion G. (385)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 4:55 pm
I'm so sure I did....lol Right now I'm taking two cold tablets, drinking my orange juice and heading to bed. So not much tonight my dear will I do about anything. Night night.
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 4:56 pm
BTW, I thought the Alex Jones question was a valid one. I did not mean it as any kind of code And like I said, it really shouldn't matter who the messenger is.
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 5:01 pm
Feel better, Sheryl. Night
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 5:23 pm
As I only meant that figuratively, please, don't take the Alex Jones question the wrong way. Perhaps it wasn't the best choice of words. If I offended anyone, you have my most profound apologies.
 

Just Carole (341)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 6:02 pm

The term "conspiracy theorist" is over-used, and many times with derision, sometimes unwarranted.

I, myself, was once one of those people who dismissed the majority of prevalent conspiracy theories; which is why it took me weeks of research to realize that this is not a theory. It is truth.

How convenient for a corrupt government to devise lies (that don't hold up to close inspection) and deride those who question them as whack-jobs.

I learned my own lesson with this extremely sad, disillusioning and oft-used tragedy of my country's history -- where it has been the excuse for slashing the rights of its own citizens, and endless imperialistic wars, and gigantic defense budgets (which take away from their own citizens' needs) . . . with the taxpayers' fearful, and willing, permission.

Even though I don't agree with many other conspiracy theories, before I deny them, I read and evaluate them with an open mind.

 

Ros G. (90)
Thursday September 12, 2013, 9:08 pm
How true Carole..once you tag it: you get division..I prefer to stay impartial..don't condone/don't condemn..more facts are needed on so many levels.......who, why, how, when and where.. start with the planes..who else was on those planes..and why might the do such a thing???
 

SuSanne P. (182)
Friday September 13, 2013, 5:15 pm
Forgive me for not acknowledging this earlier Dandelion, as I missed your newsletter in my galaxy of messages. I will definitely watch this tonight!
Thank you *C* for ALL your information and each post. I KNOW how you have researched this and I appreciate your extreme knowledge and passion of informing us of FACTS.
Thank you Brian for the brilliant (and simple to follow) break down of FACTS.
I know many of my good friends BELIEVED in this country and I was never afraid to share I disagreed. Even without facts I have seen too many lies to be surprised at anything. I follow the FACTS closely but am not influenced by patriotism. This is NOT because I was born in Canada as I have lived in this country my entire life holding a USofA passport. What those who call conspiracy theories always STINK prior to the title. The FACTS are always submitted by Dandelion, *C* and others I respect. Truth be told when I first heard about "the conspiracy" I didn't even question it. The corruption IN THIS COUNTRY is undeniable and sickens me! I have a bit more news to read and am glued to the FACTS. Thanks to those who kept the difference's of opinion respectful. Shame on those who don't respectfully disagree.
 

SuSanne P. (182)
Friday September 13, 2013, 5:20 pm
I am glad you are taking care of yourself and wish you feel better when you arise. Nightie Nite Zzzzzzz's :)
 

Past Member (0)
Friday September 13, 2013, 5:48 pm
My research continues to turn up information that clearly refutes the truthers claims, in every instance I research. . but I'll keep researching..

9/11 Debunked: Thermate Chemical Signatures Disproven

open mind?
 

Theodore Shayne (56)
Friday September 13, 2013, 5:51 pm
I watched this some time ago. I believe that if you want to know the truth; find as many reputable sources from both sides of the fence. The truth is somewhere in the middle.
Conspiracy is a "slider"; a word used by the intelligence and Elite communities to discredit all who disagree with them and would expose the truth but also to obfuscate the truth.
It's not a conspiracy when the facts over time begin to back it up. Certainly there are theories out there that you look at them and go; are you kidding me? 9/11 isn't one of them. I'm not a fan of Alex Jones and his sensationalism and Ms. D - get lot's of Vitamin D3.
 

Past Member (0)
Friday September 13, 2013, 6:13 pm
On Richard Gage and his 'Architects & Engineers' for 9/11 truth, I found some interesting information.
'According to the organization, the identities and qualifications of all licensed architects and engineers whose names are being published on its website as well as those of other supporters who are listed separately are subjected to verification before acceptance. However, many of the signatories listed in the Architects & Engineers section have engineering degrees not related to structural or civil engineering. Many include degrees in computer or electrical engineering, aerospace engineering, mechanical engineering, chemical engineering, or general engineering. For instance, as of September 2013, out of the 137 signatories with a first name starting with A, only 21 had their background listed as civil or structural engineering. One person was listed as a metallurgical engineer. Twenty eight had a Bachelor's degree or higher in Architecture. Out of these 137 signatories, one person with a Bachelor's degree in psychology, another with a doctorate in computer science, two geologists, and a software engineer were listed.'
 

Just Carole (341)
Friday September 13, 2013, 6:25 pm

SuSanne -- Thank you for your kind and supportive words.

Theodore -- You got that right!

MJM -- Is it possible that the reason you are only finding information not in support of 9/11 Truth is because, instead of actually reading/viewing the numerous resources offered here . . . you are ONLY looking for opinions that oppose their validity??? [Shaking head and rolling eyes.]

(And THAT, MJM, is my last response to your attempts to question the validity of resources provided . . . while you offer NO credentials to back up the opinions you've posted. Sadly, that's a lot of time spent to attempt to discredit the credibility of others.)

 

David B. (14)
Friday September 13, 2013, 6:27 pm
Remember the non-existent WMD Bushco lied about?... Obamas' statement "We do not conduct mass surveillance" Why should the 'official' account of 9/11 be any different?... It does not take a conspiracy monger to work that one out. There has never been an independent investigation into the 9/11 tragedy, it's time there is.
 

Just Carole (341)
Friday September 13, 2013, 6:42 pm

True dat, David!

 

Past Member (0)
Friday September 13, 2013, 6:47 pm
Dandelion G. (353)
Wednesday September 11, 2013, 6:40 am
"I realize this is a movie. Please come back with your feedback after having watched it."

I find the movie to be a slick production, from its ominous music to its clever editing. I believe it twists truth and ignores facts in its attempt to suck in the viewer. I continue to find information that refutes so called 'truths' in the movie. And above ALL ELSE, I find it to be a HUGE distraction that keeps us from addressing the real problems we face in this country!
 

David B. (14)
Friday September 13, 2013, 7:15 pm
New Poll Finds Most Americans Open to Alternative 9/11 Theories

One in Two Surveyed Have Doubts About Government’s Account of 9/11.

46% Suspect Controlled Demolition of World Trade Center Building 7 after Viewing Video Footage of Collapse.

On the 12th anniversary of 9/11, a new national survey by the polling firm YouGov reveals that one in two Americans have doubts about the government’s account of 9/11, and after viewing video footage of World Trade Center Building 7’s collapse, 46% suspect that it was caused by a controlled demolition. Building 7, a 47-story skyscraper, collapsed into its own footprint late in the afternoon on 9/11.

The poll was sponsored by ReThink911, a global public awareness campaign launched on September 1. The campaign includes a 54-foot billboard in Times Square and a variety of transit and outdoor advertising in 11 other cities, all posing the question, “Did you know a third tower fell on 9/11?”

Among the poll’s findings:

38% of Americans have some doubts about the official account of 9/11, 10% do not believe it at all, and 12% are unsure about it;
46%, nearly one in two, are not aware that a third tower collapsed on 9/11. Of those who are aware of Building 7’s collapse, only 19% know the building’s name;
After seeing video footage of Building 7′s collapse:
46% are sure or suspect it was caused by controlled demolition, compared to 28% who are sure or suspect fires caused it, and 27% who don’t know;
By a margin of nearly two to one, 41% support a new investigation of Building 7′s collapse, compared to 21% who oppose it.

SOURCE: ReThink9/11... http://rethink911.org/news/new-poll-finds-most-americans-open-to-alternative-911-theories/
 

Just Carole (341)
Friday September 13, 2013, 7:35 pm

While I am pleased that more of this country's citizenry are questioning the many lies promoted by their bought-and-paid for (by corporations) lies (and I thank you for providing this information, David), it dismays me that so many are still in denial of the truth.

I don't see how we can recover our control of a government elected to represent us, when so many citizens choose to believe their lies, even when they are uncovered.

It's saddens me.

 

Judy C. (106)
Friday September 13, 2013, 7:41 pm
Thanks for posting this movie so people can watch for the first time, or revisit it, Dandelion. When I first heard of "Loose Change" a 20-yr.-old woman I know told me about it, and I knew I'd have to see it. This girl is normally very apolitical, but her eyes had been opened in a very rude awakening. She talked about the fact that it was backed up by authoritative sources, and she was blown away by the implications that we don't live in a nice country where we always wear the white hats.

I'll have some time this weekend to watch this again, and to read more of everyone's interesting comments and links. Hope you wake up feeling better, Dandelion!
 

Just Carole (341)
Friday September 13, 2013, 7:48 pm

Judy, that's why I luv ya.

You speak from your heart.

It IS a sad awakening. But, it is necessary.

 

Ros G. (90)
Friday September 13, 2013, 10:58 pm
Thanks Carole, Brian and MJM for all your imput on this subject...I prefer to call it a cover-up more so than a conspiracy. When it is covered up by Governments..then they must know if not all of the truth..at least some of the truth..as I stated earlier..I really haven't followed 9/11(as you call it) right from the beginning....always very suspicious of any reporting that comes out of the US and so are many Australians..what are the truths/facts so far...not hear say or theories..what has been proven so far (not in a legal sense)..really interested in hearing this.
 

Ros G. (90)
Saturday September 14, 2013, 3:24 am
Beep, Beep,Beep....is there any light out there...America..are you still with us...not good news beaming into my lounge room..floods..possible hurricanes...
 

Dandelion G. (385)
Saturday September 14, 2013, 6:45 am
I had asked for feedback and yes, all have a right to their opinion. One must remember that this is a movie and as such there was a cost to go into it and they want to reach as wide of an audience as possible. Most people will not go to a movie, pay, and sit through over an hour of someone standing their giving a monologue of events and data, showing some mathematical equations, charts, and a few photos.

Americans loved to be entertained so music whether it would be your personal choice to use, visuals or other methods of presentation that is referred to you as slick does not mean that there isn't credence within the film itself. Does it cover everything and answer everything, no, but it does open up what even the families who did loose members that day are asking for, more independent investigation.

The way the buildings emploded alone has me questioning things. If it was the fire alone why didn't the top fall off, or the building top bend over as the steal got soft and sort of lean. No, instead both building came down in a nice way, just like we see those planned out demolition of buildings from time to time. And building 7, just so happened to be that building verses others around it went that way too. That building that held those agencies that is mentioned in the film. How convenient, all is lost, and the buildings just fell down in a nice and controlled way.

You've said several times that we have more pressing issues today to deal with and I very much agree we do have a lot of pressing issues to deal with. But I do believe that a lot of what we deal with today links back or has a connection to what happened on 9-11. Why is it the further we move from that date we have less rights than we did before that date? Every time our Government wants to drag us into something or take some rights away, we get pulled back to 9-11. So I don't think, on it's anniversary is a bad time to have people think about it and explore what our Country was like previous to 9-11 and what it's like today.

There is a little 5 minute version on Everything Anyone Wanted to Know About 9-11 that might be more direct. Enjoy.....
9-11 in a Nutshell or For Those Who Don't Have An Hour to Spare for Slick Productions

I thank those who have given me well wishes and Theodore got you on the D3. No, not feeling good yet, this is one of those that seems to cling on as my granddaughter is still ill and she had it first and is younger to fight it off better. But I'm hanging in there, eventually I'll get there......thanks all for caring.
 

Just Carole (341)
Saturday September 14, 2013, 6:56 am

Oh, Sheryl, I loved that 5-minute take!

Thanks for sharing. LOL!

Take good care of yourself, my friend.

 

SuSanne P. (182)
Saturday September 14, 2013, 7:02 am
My head is spinning this morning as I just viewed this movie. Dandelion I must give you kudos for this find. I admit I was not as informed as others and felt terribly ignorant due to the FACT my mind exploded with the scientific facts. This BRILLIANT 'movie' certainly was appreciated (and understood) by me. How the chain of events occurred, prior to the attack-during (on many levels)-and what has occurred to this very day! It is chilling but not surprising due to the expertise and deceptive ways of our FEARLESS (cowards) Leaders. Whatever you choose to believe is your right but does this comment alone seen plausable (if only part of this is true???) "...This was a psychological attack on American people which was pulled offf with militarty percision..." And if so "If the Government has nothing to hide why won't it answer a few questions?" Why won't they release the tapes and missing minutes-which are unavailable to anyone other than family members. I think I know the answer, IT IS SCIENTIFICALLY IMPOSSIBLE. This information (breaking down the alleged authentic conversations) never occurred to me. The scientific FACTS re: Jet Fuel??? The lack of debris? Do you really believe planes disintegrated???? How is it possible the buildings came down so tidy? I have always been CONFUSED with (lack of information) Flight 93 and now understand why. There is no information. HOW COULD THERE NOT BE ONE DROP OF BLOOD?

If anyone doesn't continue researching and more importantly QUESTIONING after viewing this information if only the scientific FACTS~ you are condoning and believing all the lies shoved down our throats over the years to be acceptable. You are accepting, hence allowing the future to be totally out of reach for each American. Do you not question the loss of gold $$$$$$$ which has not been retreived (1% is doing nicely). Do you not see our Constitutional RIGHTS being a thing of the past? How about the Patriot Act which occurred as a result?

Controlled Demolitions, one after another. All the 'evidence' has been destroyed but it is up to us as AMERICANS, as moral beings to demand a few answers. Make those in charge (CONTROL) at least throw us a bone! I am glad my pea brain can't even imagine how long that list is!

Besides everything I've shared the PSYCHOLOGICAL ATTACK IS STILL BEING FELT BY EACH AMERICAN not to mention the fallen, literally and figuratively. Haven't we suffered enough? Are you pleased with the state of CURRENT AFFAIRS?

The question is "WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT"? Please take 90 minutes out of your life to watch this movie...


 

Dandelion G. (385)
Saturday September 14, 2013, 7:32 am
David left this story on C2 is worth a viewing I believe.
Rethink 9-11
 

SuSanne P. (182)
Saturday September 14, 2013, 7:49 am
The 5 minute take WAS AWESOME! TY! There are several links provided and I will look into them this evening as I have to go to work. HAVE AN AWESOME WEEKEND EVERYONE!
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday September 14, 2013, 2:31 pm
The video Rethink 9-11 is a joke! There is a reason they call liars 'fast talkers'.

'Everything you wanted to know'?? BS.

Here's everything you SHOULD know. Debunking the 9/11 Myths: Special Report - The World Trade Center. The following content is from an in-depth investigation of the conspiracy theories surround the attacks of 9/11, which was published in the March 2005 issue of Popular Mechanics. That cover story was expanded and published in August 2006 as a book titled Debunking 9/11 Myths.

Consider this my 'feedback' about the film.

The collapse of both World Trade Center towers—and the smaller WTC 7 a few hours later—initially surprised even some experts. But subsequent studies have shown that the WTC's structural integrity was destroyed by intense fire as well as the severe damage inflicted by the planes. That explanation hasn't swayed conspiracy theorists, who contend that all three buildings were wired with explosives in advance and razed in a series of controlled demolitions.


Widespread Damage

Claim: The first hijacked plane crashed through the 94th to the 98th floors of the World Trade Center's 110-story North Tower; the second jet slammed into the 78th to the 84th floors of the 110-story South Tower. The impact and ensuing fires disrupted elevator service in both buildings. Plus, the lobbies of both buildings were visibly damaged before the towers collapsed. "There is NO WAY the impact of the jet caused such widespread damage 80 stories below," claims a posting on the San Diego Independent Media Center Web site (sandiego.indymedia.org). "It is OBVIOUS and irrefutable that OTHER EXPLOSIVES (... such as concussion bombs) HAD ALREADY BEEN DETONATED in the lower levels of tower one at the same time as the plane crash."

FACT: Following up on a May 2002 preliminary report by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), a major study will be released in spring 2005 by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), a branch of the U.S. Department of Commerce. NIST shared its initial findings with PM and made its lead researcher available to our team of reporters.

The NIST investigation revealed that plane debris sliced through the utility shafts at the North Tower's core, creating a conduit for burning jet fuel—and fiery destruction throughout the building. "It's very hard to document where the fuel went," says Forman Williams, a NIST adviser and a combustion expert, "but if it's atomized and combustible and gets to an ignition source, it'll go off."

Burning fuel traveling down the elevator shafts would have disrupted the elevator systems and caused extensive damage to the lobbies. NIST heard first-person testimony that "some elevators slammed right down" to the ground floor. "The doors cracked open on the lobby floor and flames came out and people died," says James Quintiere, an engineering professor at the University of Maryland and a NIST adviser. A similar observation was made in the French documentary "9/11," by Jules and Gedeon Naudet. As Jules Naudet entered the North Tower lobby, minutes after the first aircraft struck, he saw victims on fire, a scene he found too horrific to film.


"Melted" Steel

Claim: "We have been lied to," announces the Web site AttackOnAmerica.net. "The first lie was that the load of fuel from the aircraft was the cause of structural failure. No kerosene fire can burn hot enough to melt steel." The posting is entitled "Proof Of Controlled Demolition At The WTC."

FACT: Jet fuel burns at 800° to 1500°F, not hot enough to melt steel (2750°F). However, experts agree that for the towers to collapse, their steel frames didn't need to melt, they just had to lose some of their structural strength—and that required exposure to much less heat. "I have never seen melted steel in a building fire," says retired New York deputy fire chief Vincent Dunn, author of The Collapse Of Burning Buildings: A Guide To Fireground Safety. "But I've seen a lot of twisted, warped, bent and sagging steel. What happens is that the steel tries to expand at both ends, but when it can no longer expand, it sags and the surrounding concrete cracks."

"Steel loses about 50 percent of its strength at 1100°F," notes senior engineer Farid Alfawak-hiri of the American Institute of Steel Construction. "And at 1800° it is probably at less than 10 percent." NIST also believes that a great deal of the spray-on fireproofing insulation was likely knocked off the steel beams that were in the path of the crashing jets, leaving the metal more vulnerable to the heat.

But jet fuel wasn't the only thing burning, notes Forman Williams, a professor of engineering at the University of California, San Diego, and one of seven structural engineers and fire experts that PM consulted. He says that while the jet fuel was the catalyst for the WTC fires, the resulting inferno was intensified by the combustible material inside the buildings, including rugs, curtains, furniture and paper. NIST reports that pockets of fire hit 1832°F.

"The jet fuel was the ignition source," Williams tells PM. "It burned for maybe 10 minutes, and [the towers] were still standing in 10 minutes. It was the rest of the stuff burning afterward that was responsible for the heat transfer that eventually brought them down."


Puffs Of Dust

Claim: As each tower collapsed, clearly visible puffs of dust and debris were ejected from the sides of the buildings. An advertisement in The New York Times for the book Painful Questions: An Analysis Of The September 11th Attack made this claim: "The concrete clouds shooting out of the buildings are not possible from a mere collapse. They do occur from explosions." Numerous conspiracy theorists cite Van Romero, an explosives expert and vice president of the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology, who was quoted on 9/11 by the Albuquerque Journal as saying "there were some explosive devices inside the buildings that caused the towers to collapse." The article continues, "Romero said the collapse of the structures resembled those of controlled implosions used to demolish old structures."


FACT: Once each tower began to collapse, the weight of all the floors above the collapsed zone bore down with pulverizing force on the highest intact floor. Unable to absorb the massive energy, that floor would fail, transmitting the forces to the floor below, allowing the collapse to progress downward through the building in a chain reaction. Engineers call the process "pancaking," and it does not require an explosion to begin, according to David Biggs, a structural engineer at Ryan-Biggs Associates and a member of the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) team that worked on the FEMA report.

Like all office buildings, the WTC towers contained a huge volume of air. As they pancaked, all that air—along with the concrete and other debris pulverized by the force of the collapse—was ejected with enormous energy. "When you have a significant portion of a floor collapsing, it's going to shoot air and concrete dust out the window," NIST lead investigator Shyam Sunder tells PM. Those clouds of dust may create the impression of a controlled demolition, Sunder adds, "but it is the floor pancaking that leads to that perception."

Demolition expert Romero regrets that his comments to the Albuquerque Journal became fodder for conspiracy theorists. "I was misquoted in saying that I thought it was explosives that brought down the building," he tells PM. "I only said that that's what it looked like."

Romero, who agrees with the scientific conclusion that fire triggered the collapses, demanded a retraction from the Journal. It was printed Sept. 22, 2001. "I felt like my scientific reputation was on the line." But emperors-clothes.com saw something else: "The paymaster of Romero's research institute is the Pentagon. Directly or indirectly, pressure was brought to bear, forcing Romero to retract his original statement." Romero responds: "Conspiracy theorists came out saying that the government got to me. That is the farthest thing from the truth. This has been an albatross around my neck for three years."


Seismic Spikes

Claim: Seismographs at Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory in Palisades, N.Y., 21 miles north of the WTC, recorded the events of 9/11. "The strongest jolts were all registered at the beginning of the collapses, well before falling debris struck the earth," reports the Web site WhatReallyHappened.com.

A columnist on Prisonplanet.com, a Web site run by radio talk show host Alex Jones, claims the seismic spikes (boxed area on Graph 1) are "indisputable proof that massive explosions brought down" the towers. The Web site says its findings are supported by two seismologists at the observatory, Won-Young Kim and Arthur Lerner-Lam. Each "sharp spike of short duration," says Prisonplanet.com, was consistent with a "demolition-style implosion."

FACT: "There is no scientific basis for the conclusion that explosions brought down the towers," Lerner-Lam tells PM. "That representation of our work is categorically incorrect and not in context."
The report issued by Lamont-Doherty includes various graphs showing the seismic readings produced by the planes crashing into the two towers as well as the later collapse of both buildings. WhatReallyHappened.com chooses to display only one graph (Graph 1), which shows the readings over a 30-minute time span.
On that graph, the 8- and 10-second collapses appear—misleadingly—as a pair of sudden spikes. Lamont-Doherty's 40-second plot of the same data (Graph 2) gives a much more detailed picture: The seismic waves—blue for the South Tower, red for the North Tower—start small and then escalate as the buildings rumble to the ground. Translation: no bombs.


WTC 7 Collapse

Claim: Seven hours after the two towers fell, the 47-story WTC 7 collapsed. According to 911review.org: "The video clearly shows that it was not a collapse subsequent to a fire, but rather a controlled demolition: amongst the Internet investigators, the jury is in on this one."

FACT: Many conspiracy theorists point to FEMA's preliminary report, which said there was relatively light damage to WTC 7 prior to its collapse. With the benefit of more time and resources, NIST researchers now support the working hypothesis that WTC 7 was far more compromised by falling debris than the FEMA report indicated. "The most important thing we found was that there was, in fact, physical damage to the south face of building 7," NIST's Sunder tells PM. "On about a third of the face to the center and to the bottom—approximately 10 stories—about 25 percent of the depth of the building was scooped out." NIST also discovered previously undocumented damage to WTC 7's upper stories and its southwest corner.

NIST investigators believe a combination of intense fire and severe structural damage contributed to the collapse, though assigning the exact proportion requires more research. But NIST's analysis suggests the fall of WTC 7 was an example of "progressive collapse," a process in which the failure of parts of a structure ultimately creates strains that cause the entire building to come down. Videos of the fall of WTC 7 show cracks, or "kinks," in the building's facade just before the two penthouses disappeared into the structure, one after the other. The entire building fell in on itself, with the slumping east side of the structure pulling down the west side in a diagonal collapse.

According to NIST, there was one primary reason for the building's failure: In an unusual design, the columns near the visible kinks were carrying exceptionally large loads, roughly 2000 sq. ft. of floor area for each floor. "What our preliminary analysis has shown is that if you take out just one column on one of the lower floors," Sunder notes, "it could cause a vertical progression of collapse so that the entire section comes down."

There are two other possible contributing factors still under investigation: First, trusses on the fifth and seventh floors were designed to transfer loads from one set of columns to another. With columns on the south face apparently damaged, high stresses would likely have been communicated to columns on the building's other faces, thereby exceeding their load-bearing capacities.

Second, a fifth-floor fire burned for up to 7 hours. "There was no firefighting in WTC 7," Sunder says. Investigators believe the fire was fed by tanks of diesel fuel that many tenants used to run emergency generators. Most tanks throughout the building were fairly small, but a generator on the fifth floor was connected to a large tank in the basement via a pressurized line. Says Sunder: "Our current working hypothesis is that this pressurized line was supplying fuel [to the fire] for a long period of time."

WTC 7 might have withstood the physical damage it received, or the fire that burned for hours, but those combined factors—along with the building's unusual construction—were enough to set off the chain-reaction collapse.

And BTW, I resent being told I don't have an 'open mind'. When all of the information I've provided to de-bunk these 'theories' is ignored completely, see the conspiracy theorists as having minds closed tighter than a bank vault door.




 

Ros G. (90)
Saturday September 14, 2013, 5:22 pm
Thanks MJM..for your comment..I'm more intrigued about the planes...and how they come to the conclusion that it was who they say it was..two direct hits on the WTC.. one plane shot out of the air.. Then the one that aimed at the Pentagon building??? No imploding evidence there??
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday September 14, 2013, 5:42 pm
The Pentagon
At 9:37 am on 9/11, 51 minutes after the first plane hit the World Trade Center, the Pentagon was similarly attacked. Though dozens of witnesses saw a Boeing 757 hit the building, conspiracy advocates insist there is evidence that a missile or a different type of plane smashed into the Pentagon.

Big Plane, Small Holes

Claim: Two holes were visible in the Pentagon immediately after the attack: a 75-ft.-wide entry hole in the building's exterior wall, and a 16-ft.-wide hole in Ring C, the Pentagon's middle ring. Conspiracy theorists claim both holes are far too small to have been made by a Boeing 757. "How does a plane 125 ft. wide and 155 ft. long fit into a hole which is only 16 ft. across?" asks reopen911.org, a Web site "dedicated to discovering the bottom line truth to what really occurred on September 11, 2001."

The truth is of even less importance to French author Thierry Meyssan, whose baseless assertions are fodder for even mainstream European and Middle Eastern media. In his book The Big Lie, Meyssan concludes that the Pentagon was struck by a satellite-guided missile—part of an elaborate U.S. military coup. "This attack," he writes, "could only be committed by United States military personnel against other U.S. military personnel."

Hole Truth: Flight 77's landing gear punched a 12-ft. hole into the Pentagon's Ring C. (Photograph by Department of Defense)
FACT: When American Airlines Flight 77 hit the Pentagon's exterior wall, Ring E, it created a hole approximately 75 ft. wide, according to the ASCE Pentagon Building Performance Report. The exterior facade collapsed about 20 minutes after impact, but ASCE based its measurements of the original hole on the number of first-floor support columns that were destroyed or damaged. Computer simulations confirmed the findings.

Why wasn't the hole as wide as a 757's 124-ft.-10-in. wingspan? A crashing jet doesn't punch a cartoon-like outline of itself into a reinforced concrete building, says ASCE team member Mete Sozen, a professor of structural engineering at Purdue University. In this case, one wing hit the ground; the other was sheared off by the force of the impact with the Pentagon's load-bearing columns, explains Sozen, who specializes in the behavior of concrete buildings. What was left of the plane flowed into the structure in a state closer to a liquid than a solid mass. "If you expected the entire wing to cut into the building," Sozen tells PM, "it didn't happen."

The tidy hole in Ring C was 12 ft. wide—not 16 ft. ASCE concludes it was made by the jet's landing gear, not by the fuselage

Intact Windows

Claim: Many Pentagon windows remained in one piece—even those just above the point of impact from the Boeing 757 passenger plane. Pentagonstrike.co.uk, an online animation widely circulated in the United States and Europe, claims that photographs showing "intact windows" directly above the crash site prove "a missile" or "a craft much smaller than a 757" struck the Pentagon.

FACT: Some windows near the impact area did indeed survive the crash. But that's what the windows were supposed to do—they're blast-resistant.

"A blast-resistant window must be designed to resist a force significantly higher than a hurricane that's hitting instantaneously," says Ken Hays, executive vice president of Masonry Arts, the Bessemer, Ala., company that designed, manufactured and installed the Pentagon windows. Some were knocked out of the walls by the crash and the outer ring's later collapse. "They were not designed to receive wracking seismic force," Hays notes. "They were designed to take in inward pressure from a blast event, which apparently they did: [Before the collapse] the blinds were still stacked neatly behind the window glass."

Flight 77 Debris

Claim: Conspiracy theorists insist there was no plane wreckage at the Pentagon. "In reality, a Boeing 757 was never found," claims pentagonstrike.co.uk, which asks the question, "What hit the Pentagon on 9/11?"

FACT: Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"

FACT: Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"

FACT: Wallace Miller, Somerset County coroner, tells PM no body parts were found in Indian Lake. Human remains were confined to a 70-acre area directly surrounding the crash site. Paper and tiny scraps of sheetmetal, however, did land in the lake. "Very light debris will fly into the air, because of the concussion," says former National Transportation Safety Board investigator Matthew McCormick. Indian Lake is less than 1.5 miles southeast of the impact crater—not 6 miles—easily within range of debris blasted skyward by the heat of the explosion from the crash. And the wind that day was northwesterly, at 9 to 12 mph, which means it was blowing from the northwest—toward Indian Lake.


F-16 Pilot

Claim: In February 2004, retired Army Col. Donn de Grand-Pre said on "The Alex Jones Show," a radio talk show broadcast on 42 stations: "It [Flight 93] was taken out by the North Dakota Air Guard. I know the pilot who fired those two missiles to take down 93." LetsRoll911.org, citing de Grand-Pre, identifies the pilot: "Major Rick Gibney fired two Sidewinder missiles at the aircraft and destroyed it in midflight at precisely 0958."

FACT: Saying he was reluctant to fuel debate by responding to unsubstantiated charges, Gibney (a lieutenant colonel, not a major) declined to comment. According to Air National Guard spokesman Master Sgt. David Somdahl, Gibney flew an F-16 that morning--but nowhere near Shanksville. He took off from Fargo, N.D., and flew to Bozeman, Mont., to pick up Ed Jacoby Jr., the director of the New York State Emergency Management Office. Gibney then flew Jacoby from Montana to Albany, N.Y., so Jacoby could coordinate 17,000 rescue workers engaged in the state's response to 9/11. Jacoby confirms the day's events. "I was in Big Sky for an emergency managers meeting. Someone called to say an F-16 was landing in Bozeman. From there we flew to Albany." Jacoby is outraged by the claim that Gibney shot down Flight 93. "I summarily dismiss that because Lt. Col. Gibney was with me at that time. It disgusts me to see this because the public is being misled. More than anything else it disgusts me because it brings up fears. It brings up hopes—it brings up all sorts of feelings, not only to the victims' families but to all the individuals throughout the country, and the world for that matter. I get angry at the misinformation out there."


 

David B. (14)
Saturday September 14, 2013, 6:34 pm
I believe you are missing the point MJ M. All anyone is asking for is a truly independent investigation of the 9/11 tragedy. All we have so far is the official government version. Are the American people not entitled to that?
 

Ros G. (90)
Saturday September 14, 2013, 6:48 pm
Thanks MJM..this is what probably fuels all the speculation..the plane involved in the Pentagon- the statements made by experts..I looked at the photos for the first time today re: this crash and I thought that there would be more of the rescue effort..you know the sort of thing people running around..even armed guards around the plane just in case there still live "terrorist" inside or seeing if anyone survived in the plane that sort of thing..the human side....no emotion no human side just words like: "It was a definitely plane and I can tell you why" Sometimes people need to be shown.
 

Ros G. (90)
Saturday September 14, 2013, 7:09 pm
Thank you Brian for your comment..I would like to take that even further..the World has the right to know as well and an independent inquiry should be done..although after 12 years and much of the evidence destroyed I think that would almost be impossible. I as an Australian would like to know..our Government (of the day) lead us into an illegal war all based on these facts..they followed into the Afghanistan war, and the will follow into Syria as well...our Governments do this "In our Name", it's time for us to say "No, No More, in my name"
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday September 14, 2013, 8:05 pm
I have less trust in my government than anyone reading this! They lie to us at every turn! That doesn't prove any of the truthers claims. Everything that happened that day is consistent with the official record. Every single claim of the 'truthers' has been addressed, and if you will, de-bunked.

I have to tell you, I was on the fence on this up to a couple days ago. Now, after more research into this than I ever thought I'd do, I'm convinced that the 'truthers' are more concerned about a conspiracy than the effects of that so-called conspiracy.

How many of you have actually written and called your Representatives in Congress to demand they stop allowing the destruction of your Constitutional liberties by the Patriot Act, the National Defense Authorization Act, the National Security Agency, the Drug Enforcement Agency? This is what we should be screaming about in the streets!! Not some insane notion of controlled demolition. Both the Clinton and Bush administrations both new about a threat but neither did anything about it. That doesn't mean they planted explosives to take down any buildings! Get F ing real!

Why can't I get an answer from any truther when I ask, how many people would have to be in on this conspiracy to pull it off? WTC 7 is not an answer.
 

David B. (14)
Saturday September 14, 2013, 8:27 pm
"how many people would have to be in on this conspiracy to pull it off?"... Lots, all told to keep their mouths shut, or?
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday September 14, 2013, 8:34 pm
In the history of man, when have 'lots' of people ever been able to keep their mouths shut about anything? Now you want me to believe they are all keeping quiet under penalty of death, I presume?
 

Ros G. (90)
Saturday September 14, 2013, 9:54 pm
Sorry David I called you Brian before..what sort of expertise would be needed, what sort of time frame would they have had..before the Towers went down..was there any work being carried out..not everyone that had set foot into those 3 buildings in the last month was killed?...MJM I agree with you the more important issues are what this "Event" did to your Liberties and how do you get them back as a Nation or at least stop anymore..9/11 may have been the catalyst but I think I'll find it has been a slow build-up to this..
 

David B. (14)
Saturday September 14, 2013, 10:14 pm
I'm not trying to tell you anything MJ M. Perhaps it is wiser to have an open mind and question all things rather than live in a state of denial and acceptance of everything?
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday September 14, 2013, 11:59 pm
Might I suggest the same for you my friend?
 

Ros G. (90)
Sunday September 15, 2013, 2:23 am
On a lighter note David being a fellow Australian - how do you feel Margaret & David would review this film?
 

AniMae Chi (399)
Monday September 16, 2013, 5:06 am
Finally watched it, thanx Dandelion!

i'll never understand the excessive patriotic delusion in the states, it's blinding.
 

Dandelion G. (385)
Monday September 16, 2013, 5:42 am
We have been conditioned well I guess. Thanks for watching.
 

AniMae Chi (399)
Monday September 16, 2013, 1:40 pm
i apologise for my rash comment i definitely wasn't referring to the majority of the brilliant & educational comments here, just the patriotic closed minds that refuses to look at hard evidence.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday September 16, 2013, 3:24 pm
"...pathetic closed minds.." ?

Please, state your hard evidence. Could it be that it is your closed mind that refuses to accept evidence that refutes your claims of 'hard evidence'?
 

Ros G. (90)
Tuesday September 17, 2013, 3:54 am
Thanks MJM..I still have an open mind..have not been draw into the Pentagon's explanation after the fact or any conspiracy theory..all I know is that two planes flew into the WTC ..and it change the World as we know it..
Cui Bono
 

Devon Leonard (54)
Tuesday September 17, 2013, 11:19 am
It's up to each one of us to sift through the information.... Where there is smoke, there is fire...so one must be watchful and alert.
People in power, government or otherwise have their own agenda's.... However, Truth has no agenda. Truth simply "is".
love many , trust few, and always paddle your own canoe.
Thanks Dandelion...Feel better soon..!
 

Dandelion G. (385)
Friday September 20, 2013, 9:55 am
And with those wise and loving words from Devon may this thread wrap up. I know most of you on this thread and love you dearly, we are not expected to agree on all things, but let us not walk away from here with hurt in our hearts.

It is a hot button topic and draws in a lot of emotions so please forgive any hurt sent to another on here and those who can make peace behind the scenes with those you feel the need to do so with. Peace......
 

alicia m. (100)
Thursday October 24, 2013, 12:52 am
noted, gracias
 
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