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The Images Israel Didn't Want Seen: Video and Photographs From the Gaza-Bound Aid Flotilla


World  (tags: Gaza freedom flotilla, israel terrorism, murder, Gaza, Palestine, HumanRights, corruption, Refugees&Relief )

Cheryl
- 1407 days ago - democracynow.org
In the wake of the commando raid that left nine dead, the Israeli government confiscated every recording and communication device it could find-thus allowing the state to control what the world learned about the assault.



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Comments

Just Carole (341)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 1:30 pm

BLESS YOU, for posting this, Cheryl!
 

Just Carole (341)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 1:32 pm
 
And here's another (also at Democracy Now) that people should view while they're there:
 
EXCLUSIVE: New Video Smuggled Out from Mavi Marmara of Israel’s Deadly Assault on Gaza Aid Flotilla
 
 

Clayton Macdougall (10)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 1:36 pm
I have long been aware that Israel was an oppressive empire, which brutally subjugated the Palestinian people, but this is new, and even worse than what I would have expected from Israel. As if their raid on the Flotilla weren't bad enough in it's own right.
 

Brigitte T. (69)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 1:53 pm
Thank you Cheryl!

Shame on Israel. Shame on the Israeli soldiers. Shame on the Israeli military. Shame on the Israeli government.

We want JUSTICE!
 

Brigitte T. (69)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 1:55 pm


One more testimony, and call for action:

June 10, 2010


I just returned from the Gaza Freedom Flotilla and started my speaking tour last night in NYC to share what I witnessed aboard the flotilla, and what people can do to end the siege.

I witnessed the Israeli attack that killed 9 persons and wounded 50 on the Gaza Flotilla - the six unarmed civilian passenger and cargo ships that were taking humanitarian aid to the 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza to break the over three year Israeli siege of Gaza.

The murder of nine persons, the piracy in international waters, the kidnapping of 700 persons, taking us to Israel against our will, imprisoning us for 36 hours and stealing all our possessions (computers, cameras, cellphones and luggage) by the Israeli military forces left me aghast.

While it was a frightening and harrowing experience, I knew, as did the wife of one of the men killed aboard the ship, that we were doing the right thing.

Tragically, it took another example of disproportionate use of force by the Israeli military that resulted in the deaths of nine innocent civilians to force many governments of the world to call for the Israelis to end the siege of Gaza.

I call on all people of conscience everywhere in the world to keep up the pressure on our governments to use their power and influence to end of the siege on Gaza and to open the gates to the open air prison called Gaza!

I hope to carry my message throughout communities in the US. I'd like to ask you to donate to support my speaking tour, and let us know if you'd like to host a speaking event for me or another delegate in your city.


Send this fact sheet on Gaza to your member of Congress and to your friends who may be receiving bogus reports about what happened. We can spread the truth and ask for a full, impartial investigation into the killings aboard the flotilla. And we must keep the focus on lifting the crippling siege of Gaza.

Thank you and hope to see you in your city,
Ann Wright
United States Army Colonel (Ret.)

PS Join me later this month at the US Social Forum in Detroit to hear me speak about the flotilla and the Gaza crisis, and join CODEPINK for creative peace actions and dynamic workshops.

 

Pat B. (351)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 2:04 pm
TY, Cheryl, and Carole for this FW!! I'm passing this one on!
 

Yvonne White (232)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 2:07 pm
Thank you Cheryl & Just *C*!
 

Rajna T. (102)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 2:55 pm
So sad...so shameful .... so humiliating for the human race in general. Policy that has lost the compass ... madness !!! Thanks Cheryl, thanks Carole.
 

Dave C. (867)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 3:15 pm
Monsters! But we knew that anyway didn't we?!!
 

chris b. (2484)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 3:35 pm
No doubt the propaganda machine of Israel borrowed from the Nazis will spin this material in the same way as the footage from the massacre of the Gaza Zoo animals was claimed to be anti terrorist action because the animals were booby trapped that of course was claimed after they first denied killing or targeting Zoo animals! What it is to be so arrogant and condescending towards truth, human and animal life!
 

Jerry C. (16)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 3:38 pm
I'm afraid I don't understand. At the 1:59 mark, this video CLEARLY shows the "peace activists" firing on the Israelis with slingshots. This is in a heavily edited video put out by the "activists" themselves. How much other offensive action was cut out?
 

Luisa Fox (144)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 3:38 pm
Thank youCheryl, and Carole for the forward.

Noted and posted on Facebook wall.
 

Eleanor B. (909)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 3:52 pm
Thank you, Cheryl.
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 3:55 pm
Thank You Cheryl.. Good Link Carole..
 

Cheryl Benson (390)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 4:13 pm
I told u when I was watching it live before they got cut off that night on facebook link throughs there they were getting slaughtered and to get the prior to front page fast, thank you carol, once again.
 

Cheryl Benson (390)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 4:15 pm
slingshots against helicopters and armed israeli assassins coming illegally on board via helicopter then boats, with machine guns, oh GOD spare me israeli hasbara you make me sick to my stomach
 

Pamela Salomon (255)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 4:22 pm
Thank you Cheryl and Carole.
 

Jerry C. (16)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 4:22 pm
Sling shots are primitive guns. They are offensive weapons. I ask again. If the videos put out by the "peaceful activists" themselves show that they were armed and attacking the Israelis, how can you call them "peaceful"? Also, the helicopters weren't used as offensive weapons, only transportation. If they had opened up with a .50 caliber I might be willing to agree with you, but the truth is that the "activists" attacked the Israelis. The Israelis responded with remarkable restraint. Please note that the other boats in the flotilla DID NOT attack the Israelis and nobody was hurt on either side.

By the way, your personal invective is kinda useless. I don't care if I make you sick to your stomach. In fact, it makes me feel like I may have actually done the world a small service. Cheers!
 

Cheryl Benson (390)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 4:31 pm
israeli hasbara
 

Ge M. (216)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 4:34 pm
Jerry, the truth, which the Neo-Nazis refuse to acknowledge, merely makes the Palestinians conditions worse because Hamas & Hezbollah win. The terrorists want the Palestinians to suffer because it gives people like them the lies to present to the world.

Well done all of you, you have now made the Palestinians lives even worse.
 

Just Carole (341)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 4:40 pm

Hmmmm . . . I didn't even know I had that kind of power! (I can't even get my representatives to respond to my numerous emails and petitions.)
 

Just Carole (341)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 4:44 pm

In all seriousness. If we can access this information on the internet (which is where it was found and widely distributed to subscribers), I'm sure the Palestinian, U.S., EU and Israeli governments were already aware of it.

What we are doing here is educating ourselves -- NOT revealing government secrets.
 

Patrizia S. (315)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 4:48 pm
Wow ... Thanks Chery will forward this.
 

Jerry C. (16)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 4:48 pm
I'm not an Israeli, if that's what you are suggesting, Cheryl. I don't parrot anybody's line. I look at the evidence and make my own decisions. I leave it to the other readers to decide which of us is more believable.

I'll admit that I don't understand how my indifference to your gastrointestinal issues makes for good Israeli propaganda...

Thanks, Gillian! You hit the nail on the head!

Carole, you personally are not that powerful, but the ideas that are espoused here are. They are killing Palestinian and Israeli children by strengthening Hamas' position. Good luck with your representatives!
 

Just Carole (341)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 4:52 pm

Well said . . . and ditto: "I look at the evidence and make my own decisions. I leave it to the other readers to decide which of us is more believable."
 

Rose NoFWDSPLZ (264)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 4:54 pm
Thanks for this
 

Cheryl Benson (390)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 4:54 pm
@Jerry 19 murdered, many execution style bullets tot the head you really need to catch up on the REAL NEWS, but then you aren;t interested in the real news only hasbara
 

Cheryl Benson (390)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 4:58 pm
Activist Statements: EXCLUSIVE: 16 Minute Unseen Footage From Mavi Marmari | The Gaza Flotilla Archive From Delegitimize.Com - I

http://www.care2.com/news/member/956805373/1621140
 

Jerry C. (16)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 5:04 pm
Wasn't it only 9 dead, Cheryl? Forgive me if I have the wrong numbers.

And "murder", well, that's what we're arguing about, isn't it. I hold that the Israel forces have the right to defend themselves and to close the port of Gaza.

With regards to "to the head" and "execution style", two comments:

1. Don't whack that hornets nest if you don't want to get stung. The other boats didn't fight, nobody got "executed", hmmmm, almost like there's a pattern developing there...

2. The Israeli forces are VERY good. When you say "execution style" you seem to be implying that the Israelis lined them up and shot them. Nope, the Israelis shot them in the head, in motion, on the deck of a moving ship, from a distance. They shot them because they were attacking the Israelis. THE VIDEO LINK THAT YOU POSTED SHOWED THIS!!!! They were able to do this because, as I said earlier and cannot stress enough, the Israeli forces are VERY good.

Just to give you some other words to use:

hasbara - Hebrew
explanation - English
propaganda - also English
прапаганда - Belarusian
propagandë - Albanian
verspreiding - Dutch

Hope this helps!


 

Mack David (100)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 5:13 pm
Yes,
thank you Cheryl...
It os very good footage and I cried to see the REAl situation..
 

Just Carole (341)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 5:18 pm
 
Furkan Dogan assassination on the Mavi Marmara
 
(Hardly "from a distance." Autopsy results described the wounds at practically point-blank range. If they are "VERY good," why did he need to be shot 4 times in the head?)
 
 

Jerry C. (16)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 5:25 pm
Can't see much in that video. Honestly, that looks like a shotgun to me, not a rifle. Being shot with four live rounds from that distance with a shotgun not be described as being shot four times in the head. There wouldn't be anything left.

I can't even see what the Israelis are kicking and can't be sure that the weapon was fired.

I'm gonna have to call that one inconclusive.
 

Nichole L. (68)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 6:01 pm
Thank you, Cheryl.
 

Jerry C. (16)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 6:12 pm
This one seems pretty clear, though
 

Ge M. (216)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 6:17 pm
Thursday June 10, 2010, 2:53 pm
Israel, like any other sovereign state, has an inherent right of self defence and a duty to protect her citizens especially against ongoing rocket attacks from Gaza.
The rocket attacks against towns and cities in southern Israel have continued throughout the last months, four were fired last Thursday night and one reached Ashkelon on Friday evening.
The maritime blockade of Gaza has to a considerable degree protected Israel’s citizens from recent lethal rocket attacks launched from Gaza but does not stop them entirely .
While not ideal, Israel not only offers and continues to provide other routes through which humanitarian aid can reach Palestinian civilians in Gaza, but all of the aid taken off the flotilla last week has lain in Ashdod port simply because Hamas has refused permission for its delivery.
Israel is delivering truck loads of supplies on a daily basis – mostly in conjunction with various aid agencies to ensure it is made available to those most in need. Details of the items and quantities are regularly published disproving the wilder and often false claims by some of those quoted last week.
Despite reports to the contrary, building materials are sent in from Israel but only given to agencies such as UNWRA to ensure they do not get misappropriated by Hamas for protecting their fighters and rocket launching sites.
Last week’s flotilla episode was nothing to do with delivering humanitarian aid and everything to do with making a propagandist political statement. The fact that there was a violent outcome is regarded by Hamas as a victory.
Whatever the wisdom of the operation mounted by the Israeli Navy, the extreme violence displayed towards the commandos including the kidnapping of three of them and the attempted murder of one of them left the remaining commandos in an impossible position in which clearly their lives were in grave danger.
It was revealing that on none of the other five boats in the flotilla were there any similar incidents, but those on the Turkish vessel were armed and ready to create an incident, knowing full well that it would gain the world’s attention.
Those passengers on the Marmara who engaged the commandos were reportedly not human rights activists but hard line Islamists, many of whom have close links with or are members of the IHH, which itself allegedly has links with Hamas. And at least two of whom it is known had left behind notes wishing for martyrdom.
If Hamas desires an end to the blockade, it must cease all terrorist activity and declare an intention to live in peace with Israel
 

Cheryl Benson (390)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 6:30 pm
that is IDF copy delivered by Gillian, no surprise there or that you are so behind delivering it and it's already OLD , they pump it out more than any other country I know, and the most sadly ridiculous, they stopped allowing aid in after the gaza massacre, war crimes come to mind again? check my submitted news G, the israeli spin propaganda was already DEBUNKED

typo there J., yes 9,
 

Ge M. (216)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 6:32 pm
For those of you that blame Israel for the suffering of the Palestinians note that this gives support to the terrroists groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah who terrorise their own people. Each child that dies, Palestinian or Israeli, is down to you because your actions allow these BANNED terrorist groups to function. No Hamas in Gaza, open borders and no problems.

Could one of you kindly enlighten me as to why it is acceptable for Hamas & Hezbollah to shell Israel continually? Why it is acceptable for the terrorists to attack Israel from school, mosques and other civilian areas? Why no-one objects to these terrorists targeting Israeli schools and hospitals? And why it is so objectionable to Israel trying to stop the terrorists?
 

Just Carole (341)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 6:33 pm
 
The Legal Framework of International Law
 
The Attack on the Gaza Freedom Flotilla by Israeli Navy Commandos on May 31, 2010
 
Crimes against the Peace and Crimes against Humanity
 
By Lynda Brayer
 
During the pre-dawn hours of May 31, 2010, the Israeli Navy attacked the six civilian vessels of the Gaza Freedom Flotilla.  The attack took place in international waters against ships flying under national flags of countries with which Israel is not at war, namely Turkey, Greece and the United States.  The ships were carrying civilians from more than sixteen countries.
 
Salient points:
 
Since no state of war existed at the time, the attack on these vessels constitutes an act of war against those governments under whose flags the vessels were sailing.
 
The attack falls within the purview of the ius ad bellum, those laws which govern the resort to armed conflict.  Israel’s action does not fall into the category of the ius in bello or the laws which govern the actual conduct of war.
 
Because this attack was carried out in international waters, the status of the relationship between Hamas, or any other Palestinian body, and the state of Israel is of no relevance whatsoever.  Likewise, neither the blockade of Gaza nor Israel’s claims and legal interpretations regarding it has any bearing on its acts of aggression in international waters.
 
This is not an act of piracy.  Piracy is an act of aggression carried out in international waters by individuals and not by states.
 
The following internationally binding treaties, charters, and agreements are relevant to the attack by Israel:
 
1. Article 6 of the Charter Provisions of the Nuremburg Trials
 
(a) Crimes against Peace: namely, planning, preparation, initiation, or waging of a war of aggression, or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances, or participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the foregoing;
 
(b) Crimes against Humanity:  namely murder…deportation, and any other inhumane acts committed against any civilian population, before or during the war...in execution of or in connection with any crime…whether or not in violation of the domestic law of the country where perpetrated.
 
2. 1907 Hague Regulation Convention (XI) Relative to Certain Restrictions with Regard to the Exercise of the Right of Capture in Naval War
 
Chapter II – The Exemption from Capture of Certain Vessels
 
Article 4.  Vessels charged with religious, scientific, or philanthropic missions are likewise exempt from capture.
 
Salient points:
 
The standard for judging the Israeli acts is objective and not subjective. It is irrelevant what Israeli ministers, generals, admirals, or soldiers thought or intended.  The test is in what they did.
 
What they did was engage in acts of war using weapons of war in international waters against vessels that are protected not only in peacetime but also in times of war.
 
Israel has therefore committed both crimes against the peace and crimes against humanity.
 
These are crimes that have international jurisdiction.  Israeli political and military personnel can be named in trials held in any and all countries of the world.  If the Israelis do not attend the trials, they can be tried in abstentia, and those decisions in which the Israelis are found guilty can be executed anywhere in the world.
 
Because unarmed civilians were murdered by a preplanned military attack, capital crimes have been committed.  While it would appear that the international community no longer finds capital punishment civilized, the punishments for these capital crimes can be multiple life sentences.
 
These crimes give rise to damage claims for huge sums of money and Israeli accounts can be blocked using decisions finding them guilty.
 
The unarmed vessels were on a philanthropic mission, carrying civilians and humanitarian supplies.  Even if Israel were in a state of war with any of these countries, it would be prohibited from capturing the vessels according to the terms of the Hague Convention of 1907.
 
Conclusion:
 
It follows, therefore, that Israel was first of all not allowed to attack these vessels militarily, and then not to board these vessels by force, capture these vessels, attack the passengers, imprison them on the vessels, forcibly remove them from the vessels, and steal their private property in the form of cameras, computers, clothes, etc.
 
Every single act carried out by the Israeli military forces in international waters no May 31, 2010, are unqualifiedly and absolutely violations of international law.
 
Lynda Brayer is an Israeli human rights lawyer who specialized in the laws of war and international law in representing Palestinians.  She is a graduate of the Hebrew University Faculty of Law and lives in Haifa.   She can be reached at lyndabrayer@yahoo.com
 
Appendix: The Gaza Freedom Flotilla included six vessels on May 31, 2010 1. Mavi Marmara, passenger boat, Turkey 2. Sofia, cargo ship, Greece 3. Gaza I, cargo ship, Turkey 4. Gaza II, cargo ship, Turkey 5. Spendoni,  passenger ship, Greece 6. Challenger I, passenger ship, United States
 
 

Ge M. (216)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 6:37 pm
Actually Carole you are wrong. The blockade is legal and has been recognised as such for the last 4 years, Israel had the right to prevent the blockade being breached, international law!

If this was a genuine and peaceful protest then why were soldiers attacked by knives and metal bars when they landed without any weapons being displayed.

And, if the aid is needed why is Hamas refusing to allow it in?
 

Ge M. (216)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 6:38 pm
Try this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg
 

Just Carole (341)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 6:39 pm

Hullo?????? This is about the flotilla attack, Gillian -- NOT the blockade.
 

Jerry C. (16)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 6:51 pm
FINALLY - a substantive argument. Thank you Just Carole!

I greatly appreciate the clarification that this is not piracy. Definitions are extremely important...

Some responses:

"During the pre-dawn hours of May 31, 2010, the Israeli Navy attacked the six civilian vessels of the Gaza Freedom Flotilla". Israel BOARDED these vessels. They did not attack them. The soldiers doing the boarding were attacked and subsequently defended themselves. The willingness to proceed peacefully was demonstrated by the Israeli soldiers on the other 5(?) ships, where they were not attacked.

"The attack falls within the purview of the jus ad bellum, those laws which govern the resort to armed conflict. Israel’s action does not fall into the category of the jus in bello or the laws which govern the actual conduct of war. " False statement. Israel is at war with Hamas. These ships had, as their stated intent, the resupply of Hamas. This falls therefore under jus in bello, which would allow Israel to act to prevent supplies reaching their enemy.

"Because this attack was carried out in international waters, the status of the relationship between Hamas, or any other Palestinian body, and the state of Israel is of no relevance whatsoever." Irrelevant. A state of war exists. Israel may protect itself at the time and place and in the manner of its choosing.

"Because this attack was carried out in international waters, the status of the relationship between Hamas, or any other Palestinian body, and the state of Israel is of no relevance whatsoever. Likewise, neither the blockade of Gaza nor Israel’s claims and legal interpretations regarding it has any bearing on its acts of aggression in international waters. " Ludicrous, a state of war exists. Israel may protect itself at the time and place and in the manner of its choosing.

It follows, therefore, that Israel soldiers were, first of all, legally allowed to board these vessels, and then allowed to defend themselves from the armed passengers, transport them on the vessels, remove them from the vessels, and impound their property in the form of cameras, computers, clothes, etc.

Every single act carried out by the Israeli military forces in international waters no May 31, 2010, are unqualifiedly and absolutely NOT violations of international law.

Hope this helps.
 

Erin R. (165)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 6:51 pm
Thanks for posting!
 

Jerry C. (16)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 6:55 pm
Reformatting for better reading:

Some responses:

"During the pre-dawn hours of May 31, 2010, the Israeli Navy attacked the six civilian vessels of the Gaza Freedom Flotilla".

-- Israel BOARDED these vessels. They did not attack them. The soldiers doing the boarding were attacked and subsequently defended themselves. The willingness to proceed peacefully was demonstrated by the Israeli soldiers on the other 5(?) ships, where they were not attacked.



"The attack falls within the purview of the jus ad bellum, those laws which govern the resort to armed conflict. Israel’s action does not fall into the category of the jus in bello or the laws which govern the actual conduct of war. "

-- False statement. Israel is at war with Hamas. These ships had, as their stated intent, the resupply of Hamas. This falls therefore under jus in bello, which would allow Israel to act to prevent supplies reaching their enemy.


"Because this attack was carried out in international waters, the status of the relationship between Hamas, or any other Palestinian body, and the state of Israel is of no relevance whatsoever."

-- Irrelevant. A state of war exists. Israel may protect itself at the time and place and in the manner of its choosing.


"Because this attack was carried out in international waters, the status of the relationship between Hamas, or any other Palestinian body, and the state of Israel is of no relevance whatsoever. Likewise, neither the blockade of Gaza nor Israel’s claims and legal interpretations regarding it has any bearing on its acts of aggression in international waters. "

-- Ludicrous, a state of war exists. Israel may protect itself at the time and place and in the manner of its choosing.
 

Just Carole (341)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 6:56 pm

I appreciate your opinion.
 

Jerry C. (16)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 7:01 pm
Thanks. It's nice to be able to air our opinions without calling each other names. We disagree, but that's ok. Again, good luck with those representatives!
 

Just Carole (341)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 7:01 pm

Frankly, you have given NO explanation as to the right Israel had to board a ship flying a Turkish flag without permission outside Israel's jurisdiction.

(Or, are you saying that Israel has the right to have armed soldiers forcefully board ANY ship ANYWHERE in the world?)
 

Jerry C. (16)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 7:06 pm
I'm saying that if you state that you are going to "break the blockade" by sailing into Gaza, Israel has the right to stop you. If you attempt to resupply Israel's enemies, they have the right to stop you. They are at WAR! So yes, just as we have the right to stop resupply to Al Qaida (however you spell it) anywhere we can, they have the right to stop resupply of Hamas. Especially in international waters. If Turkey has a problem with it, that is between Turkey and Israel. Israel does risk Turkeys wrath by doing this, but that's it.
 

Jerry C. (16)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 7:08 pm
For reference, that's why the article you cited earlier tried to declare that this was governed by jus ad bellum rather than jus in bello. The "rules" are different.
 

Just Carole (341)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 7:10 pm

See, that's where the logic ends. Israel is NOT at war with Turkey (yet); the passengers were NOT representing Hamas; and the ship was NOT in Israeli territory.
 

Jerry C. (16)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 7:17 pm
Ok, I understand your point. But, the ship WAS trying to resupply HAMAS. The passengers, at least some of them WERE representing Hamas.

Are you suggesting that the U.S. would allow a ship with supplies for Al Qaida to sail from North Korea to Pakistan without intercepting it? Of course we would. Israel has the same right.

For a historical example, Lincoln blockaded the ports of the South in the American Civil War. Great Britain would have loved to continue trading with the Confederacy for cotton, but they didn't even try. Their ships would have been stopped, boarded and sent back to merry old England. Just exactly like Israel did. If the Brits fought, they U.S. Navy would have SUNK their ships, not just boarded and redirected them.

In a war, I don't have to allow resupply of my enemy. By anybody. Now, if they have the power to just it, then they'll just do it. But that's not where we are now.
 

Just Carole (341)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 7:20 pm

But, please forgive me if I decline going around and around in these circles with you. If we really wanted to, we could both spend this evening and into all of next week citing credible sources that support our views. (And, honestly? I've done enough of that this past week to last me for some time!)

It was, indeed, a pleasure having a civilized discussion of opposing viewpoints with you; and I appreciate it.
 

Jerry C. (16)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 7:21 pm
Thank you, too. Good night.
 

Just Carole (341)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 7:22 pm

G'night, Jerry.
 

Connor Hocking (29)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 8:04 pm
i can't believe they first of all attacked the flotilla, then refused to apologize for it and now this. they are digging themselves in an ever deeper hole
 

Zahra Pilavdzic (274)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 9:48 pm
Democracy now was only showing clips...here's more of the smuggled footage, minus the commentary:

http://www.culturesofresistance.org/gaza-freedom-flotilla
 

Mehdi H. (27)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 10:08 pm
So sad. Noted. Thanks
 

Betsy Bee (1362)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 10:19 pm
Thank you for the post. This is making me sick in my heart.
 

Locan Sleeping-Squirrel (209)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 10:22 pm
Look what I found. Gillians talking points WORD FOR WORD.

http://www.sdrs.org.uk/bod/flotilla.pdf

When you cite International law, Gillian, it's helpful to cite a source. But we've discussed that already and that would disrupt your propaganda effort.
 

Locan Sleeping-Squirrel (209)
Thursday June 10, 2010, 10:49 pm
Jerry the ships are going to Gaza. the flotilla relief efforts are not for Hamas. Your ridiculous and childish games are pathetic. But hey, your real cordial and respectful of others opinions, thanks. Not used to that around here coming from zionist apologists. A welcome change.
 

Treasure Tree C. (354)
Friday June 11, 2010, 12:31 am
Thank you Cheryl and Carole
 

Rajee Seetharam (138)
Friday June 11, 2010, 12:32 am
Thanks for posting this news and video! Tippers, thank you so much for this forward! The whole world seems to be going crazy with these kind of happenings! I've noted!
 

Mike L. (59)
Friday June 11, 2010, 1:01 am
Enough now!
 

Brigitte T. (69)
Friday June 11, 2010, 1:03 am
You cannot currently send a star to Locan because you have done so within the last week


Oh but I can: **************************************************************** well said Locan!! :)
 

Arild Warud (151)
Friday June 11, 2010, 2:04 am
The first thing lost in any war is the truth,shame on Israel and TY for the post "C".
 

Uhoud Abdulmajeed (182)
Friday June 11, 2010, 2:13 am
Thank you will forword it ..
 

Ben Oscarsito (347)
Friday June 11, 2010, 2:27 am
If You haven't signed the Avaaz petition
"Gaza: investigate the raid, end the blockade", please do!
486,994 have signed since 1 June. Help us reach 500,000
https://secure.avaaz.org/en/gaza_flotilla/?fp
Thank You!
 

Marty H. (119)
Friday June 11, 2010, 3:00 am
Thanks Cheryl! Gee, wonder why the IDF had to confiscate all video and audio equipment if they had nothing to hide?! LOL! Yes, I saw the sling shots too, lol! David did kill Goliath with one, lol! Of course they were not as well armed as the IDF, lol! Love how the Israeli supporters turn things around and claim it's other that are Nazis when it's clearly the IDF/Mossad who are Nazis! Oh well, to each their own! Denial is quite an interesting concept!
 

Tinkie K. (71)
Friday June 11, 2010, 4:26 am
I knew from the beginning what had happened. The peace-activists did not attack first, and the soldiers here are trained to respond in an un-proportionate way. Our country has been "sold" to the highest bidders - the Mob.
I do think, however, that this is a global phenomena. In Nigeria environmentalists are being excituted - with the backing of Shell. Look at BP. While the oil is flowing, these companies are still pumping away the oil from Iraq. Everywhere in the world today, corruption reigns, and everywhere, the people voted into government, are elected by the poorest people whom have been completely brain-washed and manipulated, and meanwhile they get abused and over-worked.
The focus is on Israel. (Don't get me wrong - this place has become the pinnacle of Super-capitalism, if one only wispers about working rights, they are considered anti-Israel), but the Western powers are creating mayhem in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc, but the coverage is minimal.
Also many people who are against the Israeli government, become confused and become anti-Jewish.
This is a very dangerous situation, in all aspects. Israel has become rogue, Netanyahu sees himself as a god with ultimate power... the power trip is dangerous, we have enough nukes to blow the entire world into oblivion. Although - if Israel were to go against the interests of the Western powers, our government would be stopped. "They" are all in it together. One just has to look at main-stream news to see how biased it is.
In my opinion, we are facing apocalyptic disasters. All of this makes me think of the saying: We are re-arranging the deck stairs on the Titanic, after it hit the ice-berg.

I feel very very bad - the people killed on the Flotilla was murder, but so is killing and starving people in Iraq and in Afghanistan. In short.... (sigh).... I do not believe our "civilization" is going to "get over this" without decimation of world population. The entire system is screwed up and in reality - nothing substantial enogh is being done to change the current course.

Thanks for posting this.
 

Tinkie K. (71)
Friday June 11, 2010, 4:44 am
I am trying to save a bit of money and leave. I really cannot bear this any longer.
 

Maurene T. (122)
Friday June 11, 2010, 5:00 am
Signed the petition Ben noted above.
In this day of video, and bless the man who was able to get it out, you can no longer hide actions. The whold world ends up watching and deplores atrocity.
 

patricia lasek (317)
Friday June 11, 2010, 5:28 am
Ben, I signed the petition also. There must be a full investigation of this incident. If they were truly re-arming Hamas, the Israelis were justified in their action.
 

David Gould (155)
Friday June 11, 2010, 7:00 am
One wonders which world people like Jerry really inhabit...meanwhile back in the real world we know that Israel openly defied the world and carried out an act of open warfare on the citizens of 32 countries on unarmed ships (slingshots...grow up Jerry...that is not dangerously armed people but desparate people trying to defend themselves). To attack unarmed ships with an armed force in International waters constitutes an act of War as understood by any strategist over the last five thousand years...and under the Geneva definitions of acts constituting warfare. (Actum ad bellum if you want it in legal definition).

The real question is how the world reacts to these acts of open defiance by a country clearly outwith the control of International Law. When it was Saddam or Adolf there seemed no question but because it is the Jews the world dithers while they get away with ever more outrageous behaviour. They need brought to book...and fast by the UN...using all the facilities at hand.
 

Cheryl Benson (390)
Friday June 11, 2010, 7:16 am
there were no weapons on any of the ships only humanitarian aid, no weapons for hamas!! which has already been in the news and posted on care2 as well and debunked from israeli propaganda spin, just like they said al-quedia was involved, the fake video they produced of boarding the ship, the weapons they said they found, they didn't find any weapons, they didn't have weapons. The israeli government is not capable of investigating itself and is an outrage that any country would support that. With that said, so far any international investigations of israel have proven inadequate and any findings after still blocked like the Goldstone report.

what I also find shocking is how many fall for israeli propaganda who are well known for, however I was nieve some years back, and as said one of the worst for spin on propaganda, it is so poorly done, it is pathetic, and shows the state of the mind set of the israeli government and much of the israeli population. Many that are Jewish are involved in taking a stand against the israeli government both inside and out side and taking the wrath of other Jew's who they can't use the "anti-Semitic" fallback to try to stop any criticism of israel, that they have used for years, while arabs and palestinians are semitic, so they call them 'self-hating Jews" and " enemies of the state", which they are trying now to make law, for any israeli that is involved in the palestinian cause. The only democracy in the middle east, it is not and never has been, it is a racist state with the one of the highest lists of breaking international laws, and the world and the UN (which I find basically useless organization and was part in creating this in the first place), can not reign them in. While they have the backing of the USA, this will continue unless push comes to shove and arab countries stand together. Some other countries are now, that are not arab, the international community is getting more involved and more determined that not only flotilla's and land aid get through, the illegal siege of gaza is broken forever, and palestinians are left to decide what they want as a country or not, if a one state solution, not the rest of the world or the international community. they never had a chance..

@ tinkle check out PULSE, maybe you would like to write for it what is really happening there as I know other israeli's are to get out news that gets blacked out from israeli to their own and to the world. Many that join the protests, and in bi'lin where they take a chance of having their heads shot off with tear gas canisters. There are many Jewish organizations inside and out of israel that are working for the palestinian cause, much of which israel blacks out. Jewish voices for Peace (I prefer), Peace now, Women in Black, and many others, as well as individual groups that work together who know each other and take the wrath of their own people everyday, to do so. I commend them. facebook and many other websites are the place to be to get the real news. most posted on c2 is from msm.

 

Cheryl Benson (390)
Friday June 11, 2010, 7:33 am
btw Israeli's shot at passengers while coming off the helicopter to land on board, any self defense is warranted. there is still mixed repots about what the humanitarian aid workers used to defend themselves, eye witness accounts said they had nothing, wiki ( which is never completely reliable and israel say different. It has also been reported that israel wanted to use this as an example, they knew the layout of the ship and were the video was and satellite were and the journalists who they went for first. it was planned far in advance.

There is also another 16 minutes of footage from the Mavi release yesterday, I posted on c2 here

Activist Statements: EXCLUSIVE: 16 Minute Unseen Footage From Mavi Marmari The Gaza Flotilla Archive

 

Cheryl Benson (390)
Friday June 11, 2010, 7:34 am
@Locan and @Carol well done
 

Cheryl Benson (390)
Friday June 11, 2010, 7:38 am
oops

Activist Statements: EXCLUSIVE: 16 Minute Unseen Footage From Mavi Marmari | The Gaza Flotilla Archive From Delegitimize.Com - I

http://www.care2.com/news/member/956805373/1621140
 

Just Carole (341)
Friday June 11, 2010, 8:02 am

I need to state something here that has been on my mind for some time. Several times, I've heard acts perpetrated by the United States, which have now become benchmarks, used as justification for other countries to follow in their footsteps.

There have been many heinous acts committed by the United States both on foreign lands, and also within (the unapologetic continued use of the monstrous DU in Iraq and Afghanistan immediately comes to mind) and I denounced them as well; and will continue to do so.

I do not understand this unwaveringly blind allegiance to Israel -- right or wrong! This is not about patriotism . . . it's about human rights.
 

Past Member (0)
Friday June 11, 2010, 11:06 am
noted (and keeping my mouth shut, for the last time I said anything against Israel, I was getting hate mail)
 

gone g. (133)
Friday June 11, 2010, 11:25 am
KUDOS for getting this out to us. TY
 

Cheryl Benson (390)
Friday June 11, 2010, 11:31 am
@John have gotten hate messages here as well as other places as well as threats. if they succeed in stopping you from speaking out they have won, which is their intent
 

Just Carole (341)
Friday June 11, 2010, 1:47 pm

What saddens me most about this horrible situation is what I'm seeing as "demonizing" of either side.

How can any truth/truce/peace be found if either side convinces others that the parties involved are inhuman?

I don't see where either side is faultless; and I definitely don't see where portraying the image of either as unfeeling animals will result in anything positive.

Yes, there have been many lies.

But, as I've said before, there is a HUGE difference between the might of one, versus the other. (Even to the point that the mightiest would MURDER others for even attempting to assist the other -- while, at the same time, requesting that the U.S. assist THEM.)

TOO MUCH HYPOCRISY!

TOO LITTLE REGARD FOR HUMANITY!
 

Abo r. (95)
Friday June 11, 2010, 2:22 pm
Israel stol the mobiles, cameras so on so that no one can photograph and not to show the facts by pictures, in order to spread to the world its false news and lies hidding the real facts.
The eyewittness are preasent and can tell the whole story to the world.
 

Ge M. (216)
Friday June 11, 2010, 2:54 pm
Many posts are imaginitive and untrue eg. Abo, you have nothing to prove your statement. It is these statements that help cause the aggravation and hate.

Carole's post allegedly from a solicitor, is one of the untrue items that people latch on to to prove a lie. People want to believe these lies because it might prove that their hate is based on a lie. However, I do agree with you, demonizing Israel serves no purpose except to support the terrorists.

What all of you are continuing to ignore is the suffering of the Palestinians. You are so keen to blame Israel for everything that you are happy to let them suffer. I, and all of the Israeli supporters (none of whom have ever said that Israel doesn't make mistakes) want the Palestinians not to suffer and to live free from fear. What none of you will accept is that the fear is not from Israel but from their own people, the terrorist groups. In Gaza it is Hamas. Yet not one of you is prepared to accept it.

Di is right, you do not want to listen and help, you want t blame and your anti-Semitism helps support the terrorists. The more that you think that Israel is wrong the more they will hurt their own people. Each and everyone of you, both collectively and individually, are responsible for the death and suffering of both the Palestinians and Israelis.

I have no intention of continuing to tell you how bigotted and biased you are and, more importantly, how guilty you are of continuing to support the deaths of both Palestinians and Israelis. Your hate must be all that fills your empty and unfulfilled lives, I am sorry for you . I prefer to work towards supporting life and continue to try and stop the terrorists so as to allow peace in Israel for all people in it regardless of race, creed, colour or disability.
 

Just Carole (341)
Friday June 11, 2010, 2:57 pm

And for that, Gillian . . . I thank you!
 

Locan Sleeping-Squirrel (209)
Friday June 11, 2010, 3:59 pm
Don't let the door hit ya on yer way out
 

Dave C. (867)
Friday June 11, 2010, 4:04 pm
Don't go. . . pleeese. . . DON'T go. . .
 

Teresa K. (33)
Friday June 11, 2010, 4:12 pm
Noted and thank you
 

Past Member (0)
Friday June 11, 2010, 4:28 pm
Darkness and Falsehood cannot hide any longer. Everything is coming together for the evil Zionist cabal.
on every front. People are waking up politically. They are just lashing out in their death throes.
 

Past Member (0)
Friday June 11, 2010, 4:30 pm
For centuries they have been causing so much suffering in the world . Gaza is but the tip of the iceberg.
 

Past Member (0)
Friday June 11, 2010, 4:33 pm
Now it takes just nine martyrs for them to come to a dead end.
 

Just Carole (341)
Friday June 11, 2010, 4:34 pm

What is most appalling -- and unforgivable -- to me is that these people seem to have forgotten the horrors of being oppressed.

For years, I read about -- and was in shock by -- the unbelievable and evil things one group of people would subject another to. The Holocaust was, in my mind the absolute DEPTH that humanity could sink to.

And now? I see the tables turned. (But no remembrance or kindness shown by those who now choose to exact the same undeserved inhumanity on others.)

This is very sad for me.
 

Zahra Pilavdzic (274)
Friday June 11, 2010, 4:37 pm
LMAO Dave...pass the vomit bucket!! Btw, would your romantic vision of "peace in Israel for all people in it regardless of race, creed, colour" extend to Hitler and Nazis Gillian? Are you aware that Hanin Zaobi,, the token Palestinian with Israeli citizenship is receiving death threats? How's that for peace and equality?

FYI: culturesofresistance.org now has one hour of unedited Mavi Marmara footage available, watch and decide for yourselves, who are the freaking terrorists?

 

Zahra Pilavdzic (274)
Friday June 11, 2010, 4:46 pm
Hasbarists will complain that we are "full of hate" and "full of blame." Didn't the Jewish people "hate" Nazis, wasn't Nazi Germany deserving of blame? Hence a further explanation at my above comment. Nazism is akin to Zionism, a racist and despicable mindset, what's there to love and tolerate? Forgive us for placing the blame where it's due!
 

Just Carole (341)
Friday June 11, 2010, 4:53 pm

Oh, sweetie . . .

I'm sorry things aren't going the way you wish -- but YOUR TRUTH may not be what others view as reality.

It's just not fair to oppress others. (And, yes, it's really that simple.)
 

David Gould (155)
Friday June 11, 2010, 5:12 pm
Josh FYI the Palestinians are a Semitic race as well...so anti-semitic would be against all semitic people eh?

A little re-think of terms I think is called for.

By the way I do not see this group you are referring to...can you direct me to it so I can join them.

Perhaps you were blocked for being intolerant maybe? Inflamatory? And why apologize for including a letter...you could have left out all that guff.

Hey Dave pass that bucket will yer?
 

Cheryl Benson (390)
Friday June 11, 2010, 5:31 pm
josh is back aka sasko, alex, roger, humm how many other profiles were there, obiouvsly he has another profile fr, off topic, and standing a protest in my thread on care 2 policies this isn't the place in this thread, and there is only 1 Electronic Intifada site, I know the webmaster, who built it for them, it's legite, the israelis don;t like palestinian news posted or what is really ahappneing there, start a petiton if you want to change care2 policies, and you're off topic as usual, and yes Dave pass the bucket, I knew he was back just very recently. people were murdered, nothing new with isra-el enmass
 

Jerry C. (16)
Friday June 11, 2010, 5:32 pm
Hey David Gould! Thanks for your comments, I appreciate them. A couple of points:

1. It's jus in bello, not jus ad bellum. Israel is already at war, this flotilla floated into a war zone with the stated aim of interfering. Israel's acts must be considered in that context, not in the context of initiating hostilities.

2. I propose a little experiment. You stand about 20 feet in front of me. I'll use my slingshot on you. After you get out of the hospital (if you survive) we'll sit down and talk about whether slingshots are dangerous.

Just Carole, you are correct. Our country is not perfect, nor is Israel. What I hope you will find about me is that I believe in applying the proper definitions irrespective of the situation. If Israel does it, we do it or Hamas does it, I try very hard to be consistent in my evaluations of the actions. I don't blindly agree with Israel or with the US.
 

Just Carole (341)
Friday June 11, 2010, 5:57 pm

Jerry . . .

"2. I propose a little experiment. You stand about 20 feet in front of me. I'll use my slingshot on you. After you get out of the hospital (if you survive) we'll sit down and talk about whether slingshots are dangerous."

In your simplistic scenario, where you are a passenger on a boat delivering humanitarian supplies, you forgot to mention that you are surrounded by well-armed, well-trained military commandos; who descended upon your ship, in the cover of night; who had already murdered other passengers; and that your slingshot (or metal bat, or brute force) is of little use against such opposition.

Please, apply your "proper definition," as you state you do. That is, under NO far-stretched imagination, a fair match!

(Shame on you!)

 

Jerry C. (16)
Friday June 11, 2010, 6:05 pm
Five(I think, please correct me if I'm wrong) other boats were boarded that night. NOBODY died or was injured. Only on the boat that attacked the Israeli soldiers was anyone hurt. Did you look at the link I posted earlier? It showed the "humanitarian activists" attacking the Israelis with water cannon, stun grenades and other projectiles BEFORE the Israelis boarded. The video link that Cheryl posted to start this thread clearly showed the "activists" firing on the Israeli helicopters and descending soldiers with slingshots.

Combat is not fair. I assure you that if anyone attacks me on the street, I will not ask them the caliber of their weapon and how many rounds it holds. I will not inquire as to its ability to fire multiple rounds or only single rounds per trigger pull. I will pull the largest, most powerful weapon I have and defend myself with it. "Proportionate response" is, in many cases, an overstated goal. When under deadly attack, such as with a slingshot, I, and the Israelis, have every right to respond with OVERWHELMING force. To ask for fairness is naive.
 

Just Carole (341)
Friday June 11, 2010, 6:06 pm

Try this:

I assume that YOU are going to hurt me; so, I travel to your house, with several armed friends, and break in. Then, because you attempt to stop us, I use that as justifiable provocation to have them riddle you and your family with their AK-47's.

That's about as much sense as the Israeli argument makes.
 

Jerry C. (16)
Friday June 11, 2010, 6:15 pm
Is there a state of war already? Have I stated that I intend to help your enemies? Have I made obvious progress towards helping your enemies?

If the answer to these questions is "Yes", then you are correct, you have that right. I also have the right to attempt to protect myself and nobody needs to cry foul about the actions on either side. We would all be greatly saddened by the death of civilians.

The only way you could be wrong is if you are operating as an individual, not in the service of a legitimate government. If THAT was the case, then you would be a criminal.

Please also note that I have never said that the "activists" didn't have the right to do what they did. I have merely noted that, once attacked, the Israelis were within their rights to defend themselves.
 

Just Carole (341)
Friday June 11, 2010, 6:16 pm

(Oh, geez, I am losing all faith in humanity that I even have to explain that.)
 

Jennifer G. (20)
Friday June 11, 2010, 6:17 pm
Thanks for your post
 

Just Carole (341)
Friday June 11, 2010, 6:19 pm

These were NOT enemies. They were NOT representing enemies. (As a matter of fact, Turkey was an ally of Israel -- before this debacle.)

The U.S. offered aid (and still does) to Israel because it was being oppressed and needed humanitarian aid.

And then, Israel MURDERS others who attempt to do the same?
 

Just Carole (341)
Friday June 11, 2010, 6:23 pm

This blatant insensitivity to human rights, and over-use of MIGHT vs. right are the reasons that my allegiances (which were for a long time with the Israelis) have shifted.

It is unconscionable that a people, who were once so atrociously oppressed, and were dependent upon the sympathies of others, would be so cruel to others!
 

Jerry C. (16)
Friday June 11, 2010, 6:25 pm
OK, we'll go through it one more time...

Hamas is at war with Israel. These people stated that they were going to Gaza to "break the embargo" that Israel and Egypt have around Gaza. That is, by definition, helping Israel's enemies (Hamas).

Murder is the intentional killing of another human being without justification or provocation. The Israeli soldiers were attacked on the MM. They were not attacked on the other ships. They defended themselves from lethal attack on the MM. Some of their attackers died. So be it. Attacking Israeli soldiers is, quite literally, a spectacular form of suicide. The "activists" knew this, They attacked anyway. One might argue that they wanted to die, given their suicidal attack on Israeli soldiers.
 

Just Carole (341)
Friday June 11, 2010, 6:28 pm

As you CONVENIENTLY keep omitting, the Israeli soldiers were NOT in Israeli territory!

They had NO RIGHT to commandeer the vessel -- not to mention MURDER 9 people (armed with slingshots).

I pity your soul for not seeing the disparity.
 

Ricardo C. (66)
Friday June 11, 2010, 6:31 pm
I try not to be in favor of any side, because I hate "HATE". But to tell you the truth, the activists messed it up with this "sling shot" thing! Check it out and think about it, again and again...I think you'll get what I mean!

This hate must stop! Peace be to all, Palestinians and Israelis alike!


 

Jerry C. (16)
Friday June 11, 2010, 6:35 pm
Cruelty is the application of force in the absence of necessity. Israel has the need and the right to defend itself. We obviously differ on what circumstances allow for that self-defense to come into play.

I've enjoyed discussing with you and I sense that I am causing you to be very frustrated with me. My wife assures me that this is one of my many character flaws.

I appreciate that you are against cruelty. Believe it or not, I am too.
 

Jerry C. (16)
Friday June 11, 2010, 6:35 pm
Thanks for caring about the state of my soul...
 

Just Carole (341)
Friday June 11, 2010, 6:39 pm

As much as I detest drawing the similarities between the Holocaust wrought by Nazi's (who, by the way, also, in their own demented minds, felt justified). What I am hearing from Zionist apologists are the SAME type of justifications for their unjustifiable cruelty!

Wanna imagine? How about we go to war, and you get a powerful nation (such as the U.S.) to side with you and supply you with billions of dollars and arms.

BUT, you (having more force) disallow anyone from helping me. And if anyone should have the audacity to attempt to help me, you travel -- BEYOND YOUR OWN TERRITORY -- and make a show of force by MURDERING anyone en route to aid me.

Now, in the case of Israel, when the U.S. did it, it was HEROIC. (And the lives lost by Americans and others were deemed to be for a good cause.)

However, in your history book, it's perfectly alright to slay humanitarians who disagree with YOUR version of truth.
 

Just Carole (341)
Friday June 11, 2010, 6:47 pm

The same has been said about slain human rights activists in the 60's, who fought for African-Americans to have rights.

Unfortunately, lives must be lost for the world to focus on the inhumanities of oppressors to other people. The fact that Israelis were once the people oppressed only makes me more perplexed at their insensitivity.
 

Richelle R. (65)
Friday June 11, 2010, 6:50 pm
America needs to stop funding Isreal.
 

Ricardo C. (66)
Friday June 11, 2010, 6:55 pm
The problem with HATE is, that those who use it for their own purposes, almost always use other innocent people in their hateful agendas and without any remorse. If they have to stage some event, to get their way, they will! This is very dangerous, because this could bring on WW III and this time around it's going to be very urgly. I just hope that many here get my message. My message is not against the Palestinians nor in favor of the Israelis, but in favor of peace for all mankind. We as intelligent human beings must not let these issues, which will involve all humankind if not addressed properly, into an "Apocalyse". Some hate filled people want an "Apocalypse" to happen, and simply because it "might" help their cause! Those that propose hate as an alternative to peace are against humanity. It is still the same today as it was 2,000 years ago: "15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them.
 

Just Carole (341)
Friday June 11, 2010, 6:56 pm

Another fact, often conveniently omitted, is that the goods (and passengers) were already inspected before departure (by Turkey, which was an Israeli ally).

How convenient, for the Israeli commandos to know, in advance, that the passengers were not equipped with the equivalent of THEIR WAR ARMS.

(And, to make a case -- based upon slingshots, metal bars and brute force VERSUS MILITARY ARMS -- as a case to MURDER humanitarians, pre-disarmed, is as insipid and ridiculous as those who would back them.)
 

Just Carole (341)
Friday June 11, 2010, 7:07 pm

"It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."
--Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955)
 

Jerry C. (16)
Friday June 11, 2010, 7:08 pm
"BUT, you (having more force) disallow anyone from helping me. And if anyone should have the audacity to attempt to help me, you travel -- BEYOND YOUR OWN TERRITORY -- and make a show of force by MURDERING anyone en route to aid me. "

It's like you're reading my mind. That's EXACTLY what I would do. I'd use the term "killing" or maybe "forcibly dissuading" rather than "murdering", but yeah, you do understand. WAR SUCKS!! Always! In every case! There is no "fair" in war.

The idea is to take away the other guy's willingness to fight, by any means necessary. My goal is to bring about a psychological change in you that makes you unwilling to fight me anymore. Of course I won't let anyone help you. By every metric (lives lost, money spent, destruction of infrastructure, loss of wealth, expenditure of materiel) the best war is the SHORTEST war. My job is to so traumatize you that you give up!

That's not MY definition of war, that's THE definition of war. You seem like a really nice person, and I am sure that this is shocking to you, but that's the truth. I swear I'm not making this up.

Israel is at war with Hamas. If you stick your nose into that conflict you are liable to get it shot off.
 

Just Carole (341)
Friday June 11, 2010, 7:09 pm

Murder is murder.

Your definition of war is just an excuse to murder.

Feel better?
 

Just Carole (341)
Friday June 11, 2010, 7:11 pm

As long as you condone the murder of another human, you are an accomplice.
 

Just Carole (341)
Friday June 11, 2010, 7:13 pm

You have a choice, Jerry. You can opt out.

You can say that there IS NO EXCUSE to take another life.
 

Jerry C. (16)
Friday June 11, 2010, 7:13 pm
My wife says I have this affect on everybody.

No, I don't feel better.

Nobody likes war, not even me. It really is true that short, brutal wars kill fewer civilians and cause less damage than long "humane" wars.

Call it murder if you want.
 

Jerry C. (16)
Friday June 11, 2010, 7:15 pm
"As long as you condone the murder of another human, you are an accomplice. "

I agree. Which is why I have studied war, its causes and actions. I am responsible, partially, for every death that occurs in Afghanistan or Iraq. I take my responsibilities seriously.
 

Just Carole (341)
Friday June 11, 2010, 7:18 pm

It strikes me as odd that, in a civilized society, there are few (if any) excuses for the taking of another life. Life is seen as sacred; and the taking of it as abhorrent.

And yet, in the scenario of war, our government propaganda has convinced us that the rules are now changed. Returning veterans, suffering from PTSD, can attest otherwise.

A life is sacred; and a government ruling that an enemy's life doesn't count . . . doesn't even make sense!
 

Just Carole (341)
Friday June 11, 2010, 7:21 pm

Each life lost was a world (maybe small) to those who knew it.

No one has the right to take that life away.

We, as people, need to remember our own values, and quit being such pawns to the powerful, who care not about humanity.
 

Ricardo C. (66)
Friday June 11, 2010, 7:24 pm
I just want to be as fair as possible on the Palestinian/Israeli issue. I have 3 scenarios, where one is correct and the other two must be wrong:
Scenario One: The Israelis, being always on edge because of previous bombings from Hamas, were informed by “someone”, that there was a supposed “Freedom Flotilla” that would move into Gaza and that there were weapons on board to be delivered to Hamas and that is why the Israelis occupied (attacked) the ship.
Scenario Two: Hamas, knowing that the world is watching, “Staged the event” by letting the Israelis know beforehand that a “Freedom Flotilla” ship would move to Gaza and “someone” notified the Israeli authorities, which knowingly would attack and since Hamas believes that “death” would be the big issue here, proceeded with many innocents on board, where some were killed, making Israel look like the bad guy killing people with only “sling shots”.
Scenario Three: The Israelis are just bad people and they would do anything to survive ***without caring who gets killed.
Now you pick the one you believe really happened. Or maybe you may have another scenario.
***Remember, both sides have not cared who gets killed when they are fighting, because hate rules!
 

Jerry C. (16)
Friday June 11, 2010, 7:25 pm
"You have a choice, Jerry. You can opt out.

You can say that there IS NO EXCUSE to take another life. "

I do have a choice. I think that sometimes violence is necessary. Sweet people like you aren't willing to fight, but nasty people like me are.
 

Just Carole (341)
Friday June 11, 2010, 7:28 pm

I can't judge you, Jerry. It's not in me. I'm not even religious.

I just hope that you can reconcile within yourself your own actions and their repercussions. (Which is what all each of us need to do.)
 

Jerry C. (16)
Friday June 11, 2010, 7:28 pm
With regards to the psychological cost of killing, please consider reading "On Killing", by Col. David Grossman. He is an Army psychologist who studied exactly that subject and explores it in the book. One of the major issues for the soldiers who have had to kill is exactly what you said, "A life is sacred; and a government ruling that an enemy's life doesn't count . . . doesn't even make sense! "
 

Jerry C. (16)
Friday June 11, 2010, 7:31 pm
Luckily, I've never had to kill or even be particularly violent. I'm not a cop or a soldier. I'm not physically able to be either. I do, however, support what they do and strongly believe that neither a police officer or a soldier working within their proper guidelines can be considered a murderer if they kill.
 

Just Carole (341)
Friday June 11, 2010, 7:35 pm

If you take a life, you're a murderer.

(The rest is escapism.)
 

Jerry C. (16)
Friday June 11, 2010, 7:37 pm
OK, a real scenario. I helped put a serial child molester in jail. The conditions were so bad there that he had a heart attack and died. Realistically he would probably still be alive today if I had not gotten involved. I knew he had a heart condition. Am I a murderer?
 

Just Carole (341)
Friday June 11, 2010, 7:39 pm

An example: Even if a person were to break down my bedroom door, in the middle of the night, without warning . . . and I were to use my gun (always near me) to choose to unlatch the safety and shoot him/her -- for the rest of my life, I would KNOW that I murdered another human being -- justified or not -- and that I extinguished any future for that person.

I would (forever) take that seriously.

That is one of the reasons I cannot condone 4 shots to the head of a 19-year old.
 

Jerry C. (16)
Friday June 11, 2010, 7:42 pm
I can respect that. You say you would be a "murderer" who murdered with justification, but still a murderer.

I say the justification removes the stigma of "murderer". I'd call you a justified killer.
 

Just Carole (341)
Friday June 11, 2010, 7:45 pm

I will go even further, Jerry.

I honestly believe that the soldier who used that weapon will ALSO be haunted by it. (I refuse to dehumanize the participants.)

So, we have even MORE devastation, by resorting to murder. A young life is lost; and a soldier's mind is forever warped by the memory.

Who won?
 

Jerry C. (16)
Friday June 11, 2010, 7:48 pm
Gotta go to bed. Good night!
 

Jerry C. (16)
Friday June 11, 2010, 7:49 pm
Oh yeah, you're right on that. Nobody won. War sucks for everybody.
 

Just Carole (341)
Friday June 11, 2010, 7:50 pm

G'night, Jerry.
 

Matloob ul Hasan (81)
Friday June 11, 2010, 8:34 pm
Noted, thanks.
 

Cheryl Benson (390)
Friday June 11, 2010, 9:25 pm
Jerry posting from the IDF, some of those have been debunked and some were fake recorded after they seized it and they FILMED and acted themselves on the Mavi and they got found out or haven't you seen the fake one yet obviously not, how patetic, check my submitted news ! also the Auschwitz statement was retracted by Israeli government, they said they didn't know who made it, so how you make sense of that one? As for 9/11, the zionists were behind it, and the USA, mossad was out a week prior and warned washington HELLO.


As for the usa giving billions to israel for humaitarian aid, it's been to have a strong hold in the middle east, nuclear ready, 5th strongest military in the WORLD y. USA gives out approx $10,000 per israeli head per YEAR STILL, P;US BILLIONS FOR MILITARY, IT'S A WELFARE STATE WHILE PALESTINE IS DYING AT THE EXPENSE OF ISRA'EL's GREED & FEAR & POWER MONGERS

Yes war sucks for everyone THINK WHO IS PULLING THE STRINGS AND WE LET THEM, WE VOTE MOST OF THEM IN
 

Kathy Chadwell (371)
Friday June 11, 2010, 10:53 pm
After seeing the actually footage (which I can't find at the moment) of Rachel Corrie being ran over by an Israel soldier in a tank then him raising his fist like he actually accomplished something other than running over an beautiful American kid trying to make a difference:( I don't trust the Israel government. They had a mock trial and that coward was let loose to murder more kids:(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUoZGnvZwNY



Rachel Corrie was a 23-year old American peace activist who was run over and killed by an Israeli on a bulldozer, on March 16, 2003 in Nablus, Palestine. Corrie was protesting Israel's systematic destruction of Palestinian homes.
 

Kathy Chadwell (371)
Friday June 11, 2010, 10:54 pm
Sorry that was a bulldozer
 

Bryan S. (96)
Friday June 11, 2010, 11:39 pm
Jerry C., You say the ships were going to re-arm Hamas. There's no proof of that, but anyway what were they going to arm Hamas with?? Sling-shots and knifes? Not to mention, the wounded IDF soldiers were treated by the "terrorists" on the flotilla.

And even if there was a possibility of real weapons on the flotilla, that didn't give the IDF the right to be judge, jury, and executioner. Imagine if the Iranian military had hijacked a boat in international waters because it claimed there might have been a danger to them, and killed 9 people and wounded dozens more.

 

KS Goh (0)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 12:16 am
Thanks for posting.
 

Marty H. (119)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 3:39 am
Josh, it's possible that you are paranoid? Just because people stick up for the underdog, which definitely are the Palestinians, does NOT mean they are spreading Islamic propaganda of any kind! Just because people do not agree with you does NOT mean they are anti-semitic! I do not know if your claims about accounts being deleted, etc are true or not. I have never found care2 to be biased and I have been a member since 2002! What the IDF and it's serious supporters can not seem to understand is why everyone does not fall into the hate game and agree with them. Hate is a self destructive emotion that does no one or the world any good at all. The IDF/Mossad has modern weapons and the money to make their military one of the best trained in the world. However they continually abuse, kill, bomb UN buidings, etc., and seem to not think that is wrong or that they should suffer the consequences! People are fed up all over the world with this hateful behavior and they should be! All this has little to do with people of the Jewish faith! This has to do with the IDF/Mossad mostly. Sure there are anti-semites. And I have heard some very rscists remarks from the people in Israel! People of the world should ALWAYS STAND UP AGAINST any group anywhere that is treating others like inferiors! What if no one stood up against the Nazis in WW11? We would be an all blonde hair blue eyed race speaking German! I hope you are capable of seeing what I am saying! Trying to stifle people's opinions that do not agree with you or trying to suppress free speech is extremely Nazi-like! Take care and have a nice day!
 

Jerry C. (16)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 3:56 am
Bryan, actually I say the BLOCKADE is to prevent the rearming of Hamas. Whether there were or were not weapons on these particular ships is irrelevant. The stated goal of the flotilla was to "break the blockade". That would allow resupply of Hamas.

"Imagine if the Iranian military had hijacked a boat in international waters because it claimed there might have been a danger to them, and killed 9 people and wounded dozens more. "

-- Good point. Is Iran in the middle of a war? Did they "hijack" a boat? Or did they just board it? Was it the stated goal of the passengers on the boat to resupply Iran's enemies? Did the passengers on the boat attack the clearly identified Iranian soldiers? Were there 5 OTHER boats that were boarded peacefully, thereby showing that the Iranian soldiers were willing to proceed peacefully?

If the answers to these questions were: Yes, no, yes, yes, yes and yes, I would support the Iranian's actions just as I am supporting the Israeli's actions.



 

Sini K. (113)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 4:35 am
Noted and thank you.
 

Dennis Campbell (0)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 5:12 am
This is simple, if you do not live in Israel you do not have a clue. This is not to be an insult but you all are just IGNORANT. Have any of you had to worry that sending you three daughters off to school in the morning would be the last time we you ever saw them? Reason being that some deranged suicide bomber was convinced this was his day to meet his 72 virgins. Did you ever worry that dinner at the local pizza cafe would end up in a bombing killing your whole family? When were you driving to the beach for a family outing did you worry about snipers firing from Gaza would kill someone in your car? Unless you are willing to spend a year in Israel you will never have a clue what it is like to live in the line of fire 27/7. The news about this is 5 minutes- I challenge any of you to live it on a day in day out basis, then tell me what you think!Shalom Shalom
 

Jerry C. (16)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 5:40 am
thank you, dennis.

Dennis - "but you all are just IGNORANT. "

I disagree. Ignorance is simply lack of knowledge. Many of the people here have been told and shown. They simply choose to ignore what doesn't fit in their world view. That's "willful ignorance", and it is not acceptable.

Shalom
 

David Gould (155)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 7:15 am
Jerry,
Sorry it has taken me 24 hrs to reply.
80 miles off the coast of israel is not floating into a war zone. Israeli waters are three miles off coast as is all international treaties...or has israel now taken over the whole Med as it did land for settlements...
As a point of information the boats were in fact steaming away (west) at the time of being invaded at 4.30 am.

And when I need Latin lessons I shall tell you...bellum it is, as it 'of war' since there has been no declaration of war upon the nations of the people on board the ship...grandmothers and eggs come to mind.

thanks for the ironic star...or don't you do irony. I note that others are picking a few holes in your rather spaceous comments.
 

Alamzeb Khan (422)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 7:28 am
ISRAEL IS PROMOTING STATE TERRORISM WHICH MUST BE CONDEMNED.THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT IS EVEN WORSE THAN ALQAEDA.
 

Dawn W. (2)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 8:05 am
Hmmm, let me see if I've got this right.

The 'tiny' (in comparison to those around it) country of Israel (democratic) is trying to defend itself against surrounding countries (dictatorships) that are 640 times its size - and people are condemning Israel!

Something is very wrong here.
 

Gavan A. (13)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 8:09 am
Noted, thanks.
 

Dave C. (867)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 8:39 am
Dawn W.

Saturday June 12, 2010, 8:05 am

"Hmmm, let me see if I've got this right.

The 'tiny' (in comparison to those around it) country of Israel (democratic) is trying to defend itself against surrounding countries (dictatorships) that are 640 times its size - and people are condemning Israel!

Something is very wrong here."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Democracies don't act like savages while living on stolen land or pirates in international waters.
 

Dawn W. (2)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 8:56 am
Unless you were there Dave C. then my comment back to you is 'get in the real world'.

'Democracies don't act like savages"!! Haven't you been reading the news! The U.S. does whatever it needs to in order to protect itself and its interests: 'every' country does that so why is Israel singled out for doing the same thing!

In the case of this democracy however, it's a 'tiny' country that is desperately fighting just to stay alive against extreme odds. For that reason my vote is with the 'little guy'.


 

Bryan S. (96)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 8:58 am
Jerry, Israel is not in the state of war against Gaza, it is an occupied territory. Yes they most definitely did hijack the flotilla. It was the stated goal to bring aid to Gaza. Yes some passengers resisted the IDF which they shouldn't have, and other passengers on the flotilla treated the wounded soldiers. But the killing of 9 and wounding of dozens was not just defense. And it was the IDF that initiated this agression.

Israel may have the right to inspect goods going into Gaza, but the blockade and collective punishment of this occupied territory is in fact a violation of international law.
 

Bryan S. (96)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 9:04 am
And Israel is not the little guy. They have one of the largest militaries in the world, the 5th largest arsenal of nuclear weapons and recieve billions in military aid each year from the US. This is a different issue, and not to say Israel doesn't have security needs, but none of the surrounding countries threaten their survival at all.
 

Jerry C. (16)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 9:11 am
David, we seem to have gotten off on the wrong foot. Let me try again.

The star was not ironic. It was a legitimate thanks for presenting a cogent viewpoint.

I wasn't trying to correct your Latin, I was responding to your point. You essentially said that the proper rules were those of "justice in the initiation of hostilities". (jus ad bellum) (you literally said "actum ad bellum", but for simplicity I am using the terms already in play here. I don't think there is a substantive difference). I replied that I felt the proper rules were the ones regarding justice in the conduct of existing war. (jus in bello). My apologies if I was unclear.

Israel is at war and these people made it clear that they were trying interfere in that war. Your point about their location in international waters is true, but also irrelevant. Israel, like every other sovereign nation has the right to prevent resupply of their enemies in a war. They don't have to wait until that resupply reaches some magical distance from shore. The flotilla members stated that "breaking the blockade" was their goal and made credible progress towards that goal. Israel stopped them.

I notice that you have not agreed to allow me to use you for target practice with my slingshot (this is not a threatening statement, see my "offer" above). Are we agreed then that a slingshot is a deadly weapon?

David - "I note that others are picking a few holes in your rather spaceous comments."

-- Others are TRYING.I think I am doing rather well for a (mostly) lone voice crying in the wilderness!
 

Dave C. (867)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 9:12 am
State Terrorism and the New World Order. "Man's Stupidity Has No Bounds"

"On board (the Marvi Marmara) was a consignment of marbles, for the children of the tiny twenty five miles long, by seven mile wide, besieged territory. One could be forgiven for thinking there are some in high places in Israel, who have lost theirs. . ."

http://www.care2.com/news/member/986137489/1624465
 

susan w. (13)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 9:31 am
why is israel afraid of a ship bringing aid ?
 

Jerry C. (16)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 9:33 am
Bryan - "Jerry, Israel is not in the state of war against Gaza, it is an occupied territory. "

-- Hamas is the elected government of Gaza. I don't believe there are any Israeli soldiers occupying Gaza. Therefore, Gaza is not an occupied territory.

Bryan -"Yes they most definitely did hijack the flotilla."

-- No, they didn't, they boarded it. Governments don't "hijack". They stop or seize or board or impound.


Bryan -"But the killing of 9 and wounding of dozens was not just defense."

-- In your opinion. Not in mine. Firing on Israeli soldiers is a spectacular form of suicide and those guys chose it.

Bryan - "And it was the IDF that initiated this agression."

-- Not from the videos. Even the video that started this thread showed the "activists" firing on the Israelis with slingshots during the boarding. I have posted a link to a video that was taken FROM THE BOAT and it shows the "activists" attacking the soldiers with a stun grenade, water cannon and other deadly projectiles before the boarding. Five other boats were boarded and nobody attacked the soldiers on them. Nobody there was hurt. Therefore, the Israelis were not looking for a fight. The "activists" were. The "activists" lost.

Bryan - "This is a different issue, and not to say Israel doesn't have security needs, but none of the surrounding countries threaten their survival at all."

--ROFLMOA!! Do you do stand-up comedy? If not, you should. Man, that is the funniest thing I have heard in years!! LOL. "none of the surrounding countries threaten their survival at all." Man, you're just killin' me!! Seriously, read some history. Israel is threatened by nearly EVERY country around them.

Dave C. - marbles... you mean ammunition for the slingshots? To be shot at Israeli troops? Yeah, no need to stop THAT shipment.


 

Jerry C. (16)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 9:35 am
Susan - asked and answered many times. Read the thread.
 

Dave C. (867)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 9:42 am
and I suppose the blacklisted jam getting into Gaza prevents them from doing what, exactly? Making jam sandwiches to hurl at the IDF soldiers as they shoot at them!
 

Jerry C. (16)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 9:49 am
I would put that under "luxury goods". Goods which could easily be sold to raise money for more weapons.
 

Jerry C. (16)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 9:58 am
I appreciate your viewpoint as well. Have a great day!
 

Jerry C. (16)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 9:59 am
Actually, no joke, my grandfather was a hatter. He actually made hats for a living. Do you think there might be a connection?
 

Jerry C. (16)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 10:09 am
Fair enough. Have a nice life!
 

Cheryl Benson (390)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 10:17 am

Shocking Testimonials from the Mavi Marmara Survivors

by Lauren Booth / June 12th, 2010

One of the most striking trends following the flotilla attack has been how quickly Israeli hasbara is being exposed by internet journalists. The doctored IOF audio clips, where amateurs with mock Arab accents hiss ‘Go back to Auschwitz’ to Israeli naval officers. Well they didn’t take long to pull apart did they? Then there are the (so-pathetic-they’re-almost-funny claims the flotilla was linked to Al Qaeda. I laughed out loud to read in an Israeli paper that humanitarian activist (and former US marine) Ken O’Keefe was going to Gaza to; ‘train a commando unit in Hamas.’ I know Ken fairly well. Quite frankly I’m not sure who should be more insulted by this stupidity him or Hamas? Either way flinging the words ‘Hamas’ ‘Jihadists’ and ‘Israel’s security’ around is no longer having the same shock and awe effect on journalists or the public at large.

The internet now shapes the world’s story, not the Israeli Foreign Ministry.

Meanwhile, like a soccer star caught cheating on his wife. Instead of saying ‘ I messed up big time, forgive me’ Israeli government sources and other shysters are screaming; ‘it’s not fair to watch us all the time, that’s mean!’ and ‘this is our business, leave us alone!’ Bad luck for them that as it stands, more of the IDF’s minging dirty washing, is being aired in public than ever before; via facebook and twitter. The Zionists sobs of ‘no faiirrrr!’ are sounding ever more bizarre. But more about the Isra-bots later on.

Israeli Intelligence (some mistake surely?) have been busy since the massacre. Erasing the memory sticks and hard disks of what my preliminary research estimates to be some 800 video cameras, around 1200 mobiles and 600 lap tops. All items, looted from the passengers of the Freedom Flotilla, whilst they kneeled, handcuffed and in stress positions, on the hot deck of the Mavi Marmara for up to 12 hours after the attack. Before the bots cry ‘why so much money on board, why so many cameraaas!’ Let me explain, the good individuals on board had been raising money for months in the local communities around the world to take useful gifts tot eh people, schools and children of the besieged Gaza Strip. Besides which -the cameras were the only ‘weapons’ those on board had with which to arm themselves in the event of an attack at sea.

Now, evidence is emerging, that having been forced (by Turkish hard line diplomacy) to release all of the kidnapped passengers sooner than it would have liked; Israel is (as usual) taking revenge on the Palestinian relatives of activists onboard. Those who seek to non violently oppose Zionist policies of Apartheid violence are having loved ones interrogated by the Shabak as you read this for merely sailing with the Freedom Flotilla. I am not at liberty to say much more for fear of even further reprisals on innocent people. But as you should by now be aware, the Israeli machine specialises in collective punishment. This week a spokesman in the US said live on air that ‘Children in Gaza were under siege because their parents voted Hamas.’ Too much to say on that, so I’ll leave it hanging for you to take in

Last night in London, as in so many cities this week, Freedom flotilla passengers addressed a packed open meeting. At the Conway Hall in Central London half a dozen British survivors, looked in turns spaced out and hardened by their experience, eleven days ago (is that all it is? How the world turns!).

Jamal El Shayyal, is the Al Jazeera reporter who kept broadcasting as gun shots rang out behind him on the upper decks of the Mavi Marmara. I honestly thought I had heard, read and seen the worst about the Israeli attack on the fleet’s passengers. I hadn’t. Believe me, nor have you. Those three minutes clips, miraculously broadcast live or smuggled out beneath tongues, reveal the merest inkling of the horrors these brave people witnessed. And suffered.

El Shayyal, told an utterly silent audience he ‘had been invited by IHH to film every inch of the ship.’ So he did. From the bowels of the hull to the uppermost decks he filmed.

‘I checked and filmed’ he said ‘there was not 1 weapon onboard. Not one gun. no lethal artillery. The most lethal thing on the ship was fruit and vegetables.’

When the Israeli commandos attack began Jamal was wearing his pyjamas under a life jacket as were so many of the allegedly ‘prepared terrorists on board.’ Helicopters caused a near hurricane on the decks, all satellite phones were jammed (deliberately to stop SOS calls to the rest of the world). And, so the IDF hoped, any factual reports of what was about to occur.

At this point, just after four thirty am, Jamal saw a Turkish passenger shot in the top of his head. He spoke slowly and clearly to make sure he was understood by us all in the hall.

‘No Soldier was on the ship at this time’.

Quickly another passenger removed a white t-shirt from a bag and used it as a white flat of surrender. When gun shots rang out, greater numbers fell. It was clear calls for mercy were to be ignored. That a shoot to kill policy was in place.

An Israeli member of the Knesset and Lubna (an activist who also speaks Hebrew) took turns making announcements over the tannoy in English and then Hebrew. Announcements made at least 8 times;

‘We have critically injured people here, please can you come and get them. We are NOT armed. We SURRENDER!’

Soon the tannoy connection was cut off.

Sarah Colborne of the PSC and another passenger negotiated with soldiers for the evacuation of some at least of the mounting injured. Many of the bleeding would not go with the Israeli’s. Fearing they would be less safe getting ‘treatment’ from the troops, than below decks being operated on without anaesthetic.

‘The Israelis were asked for a stretcher’ continued Jamal ‘for a man with severe internal bleeding to be moved. Use a sleeping bag we were told.’ The man was moved in agony on a blanket no doubt increasing his injuries. And his immense pain. Did he survive? We’ll never know.

As the shooting gave way to the enforced imprisonment of the passengers, or, let’s give it its right name – kidnapping, Jamal was pushed to the floor, cuffed and beaten. His possessions taken from him. It was morning on a bright, sunny, summer’s day by now. Hundreds of shocked men were taken on deck, hands bound behind their backs. Three, then four hours passed. Pleas were made to use the toilet. No water was given, they were kicked, spat at and punched by soldiers who passed by every few minutes. Eventually Jamal persuaded one soldier to let him go to the toilet, ‘with my hands still bound behind my back.’ One man in his eighties trying to get back to his family in Gaza, was jeered by soldiers, in his discomfort. After many hours, he suffered the indignity of urinating on himself, in front of both friends and fiends.

At some point Jamal was taken back downstairs. The area had been thoroughly ransacked.

‘There was no respect for human rights or dignity. Holy books of all faiths had been thrown about, possessions strewn everywhere”.

He remembers one quietly spoken Muslim brother asking soldiers gently several times for his cuffs to be loosened, just slightly. The third time he asked one of them tightened them so much that ‘he gave a scream of agony that made us all feel sick to our stomachs.’

In the afternoon the ship was forced into Ashdod port. Pushed ashore by armed guards Jamal was greeted with the words; ‘Welcome to Israel. Are you enjoying your time here?’

The Al Jazeera journalist wanted us all to understand something very clearly. That the civilian passengers were not ‘detained’ nor ‘arrested.’ They were plainly and in every legal definition of the word ‘Kidnapped, abducted.’

In Beersheva prison, he was placed in a cell, with a leader from the Turkish human rights group, IHH. They had no food for 24 hours, just a few sips of water. They had no idea if the world knew where they were or what had happened. In other parts of the prison, consular reps from Greece, France, Spain and Macedonia could be heard shouting at the Israeli captors demanding the release of their compatriots. Yelling that rights were not being respected, yelling for food, water, access to legal representation. From the British consul.

Nothing.

Finally when every other consul had visited the abducted civilians, a British rep turned up. Jamal described the obsequious nature of the visit in terms that make one cringe. Bowing and scraping to the Israelis, the British diplomat didn’t even push for the right to see the victims in a private area. A legal imperative for all detainees during such visits. He didn’t demand water, or food, or a release time for those he was supposedly representing. Under the gaze of Israeli soldiers he asked just two questions ; ‘what is your name and what is your home number in the UK.’ Then our citizens were left. Wondering about their fate and that of their comrades; hungry, afraid, shocked, alone.

When the Israeli’s knew the game was up, that the world had indeed seen clips of their murderous attack, the Turkish abductees were given the chance to leave quickly, in an hour.

Did they go? No. They refused point blank to leave ‘before every other nationality has left before us.’ We salute them.

Jamal, Osama, Alexandra, Sarah, Kevin, and four hundred other internationals were released ONLY because of Turkish support for them. Not because the international community stepped in. Not because of action by the UN or (God forbid), the UK government. Because of the Turkey government.

In all his time as a prisoner, some forty hours plus, Jamal, like all the other Brits, had no legal visit, no phone call home and no proper British representation.

Finally at Ben Gurion airport being deported from a place he never wanted to enter in the first place. Jamal was given a piece of paper with a photo of himself on it and Hebrew writing.

His interrogator smirked at him and led him towards the plane ‘Congratulations’ the man said. ‘This is your new passport.’

‘I want my old passport!’ Said Jamal.

‘Sue me!’ Came the reply.

There was more much more from the survivors, which was videotaped and I will post as soon as it comes online. But let’s get back to the Zio-bots now. For alongside Press TV cameras and PSC workers filming the testimonies, there was the compulsory, sulky faced Zionist, shooting footage of the event for some organization opposed to justice, and free speech. Curiously, as the survivors described their horrors in depth, this woman’s camera was aimed NOT at the stage. But at my Press TV colleagues.

I went outside for a cigarette and there she was again. Instantly recognisable as a tight lipped Proto Zionist. She asked if I was with Press TV and would I speak to her for “Israeli TV?” Clearly she was not from any broadcaster — as no valid news channel accepts shaky, amateur hand held footage of the sort she was producing. Curious about her real intentions, I said ‘with pleasure.’

‘So do you think Press TV has done enough to give the Israeli side of events concerning the flotilla?’

Did I pause? It felt like a must have, just to have the time to process that after an hour of harrowing testimony about a massacre, this woman, had heard and felt – nothing.

‘The BBC has given Mark Regev enough space for your cause don’t you think,’ I replied

‘Yes but don’t you think Press TV ought to….’ and then it happened. The white rage. I heard children crying in Gaza, saw fishermen being shot along the coast, phosphorous plummeting onto schools and UNWRA food stores. I saw the massacre on the Freedom Fleet, the torture, the needless, avoidable death..

‘Go f yourself,’ I heard myself saying. And to make sure I couldn’t be misquoted I added.

‘Just f off.’

http://dissidentvoice.org/2010/06/shocking-testimonials-from-the-mavi-marmara-survivors/#more-18323
 

Bryan S. (96)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 12:14 pm
Jerry, First, no government has a right to sieze any boat it wants to, especially in international waters. People have a right to resist such an unlawful siezure, though in this case it was stupid for some of the people to do so.

But you're actually going to equate some guys using slingshots to heavily armed soldiers killing people? Not to mention there were people shot several times at close range. And you talk to me abuot comedy??

Israel controls all the borders and air-space of Gaza. By definition, Gaza is occupied. Look it up.

And no, none of the surrounding countries are a threat Israel's survival. Any of them would be immediately wiped out by Israel and the US if they attacked Israel.

But it does no good to argue with people who will always excuse any use of violence by the Israeli government, such as the massacre in Gaza last year. The large majority of the world, including Israeli peace activists demand a change in Israel's behavior.

 

Cheryl Benson (390)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 12:17 pm
8

Shocking Testimonials From the Mavi Marmara Survivors


http://www.care2.com/news/member/956805373/1624734
 

Yvonne Mendes Siblini (218)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 12:28 pm
Where are we going from here, do you see a green light anywhere besides being allowed junk food when they can make it themselves. They are not allowed the most important Cement to rebuild which was destroyed.
 

Jerry C. (16)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 1:08 pm
Bryan - "Jerry, First, no government has a right to sieze any boat it wants to,"

-- I never said they did. I said every gov't has the right to defend themselves. Part of Israel's defense involves the blockade. These ship's stated purpose.... yada, yada, yada. Said it many times before, read the thread.

Bryan -"But you're actually going to equate some guys using slingshots to heavily armed soldiers killing people?"

-- The capacity for self-delusion is apparently limitless. A slingshot is a deadly weapon. If an Israeli soldier has an automatic rifle and you have a slingshot you are an idiot for attacking him. These "activists" did. They died. Up close, from a distance, attacking armed men with inferior weapons is dumb, but they chose to do it.


Bryan -"Israel controls all the borders and air-space of Gaza. By definition, Gaza is occupied. Look it up. "

-- I did: The Hague Conventions of 1907 define military occupation.

"Laws and Customs of War on Land" (Hague IV); October 18, 1907: "Section III Military Authority over the territory of the hostile State."[1] The first articles of that section states:

Art. 42.
Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army.
The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised.

Gaza is under the authority of Hamas. Israel has no control that it can exercise in Gaza, therefore, Gaza is not occupied territory.

Bryan -"And no, none of the surrounding countries are a threat Israel's survival. Any of them would be immediately wiped out by Israel and the US if they attacked Israel."

-- Mutually Assured Destruction? That's your answer? MAD only works if both sides care about their survival, personal or national. Radical Muslims who have dedicated their lives to the destruction of Israel (Hamas for example) don't care about living as long as Israel is destroyed. Israel could be wiped out. Yes, the offending parties would be punished, maybe even destroyed, Israel would still be gone. Even if Israel survived an all-out attack from her enemies, the destruction would be terrible. Perhaps that doesn't matter to you, but it does to me.




 

Mike H. (213)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 4:19 pm
Wow this thread is like a mini war. back and forth. Tit for tat
 

Jerry C. (16)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 6:01 pm
sssshhhhhh..... we're in a truce right now....
 

Cheryl Benson (390)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 9:11 pm
hardly
 

Patricia B. (4)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 9:36 pm
Gillian and Josh,
You cannot succeed on this forum when the website itself shares the views of the haters who participate with their venomous attacks on anything they detest. In this case, it is their vile antisemitism that Care 2 promotes by deleting opposition!!! My posts have been deleted also. I have had discussions with Care 2 that were met with absolute negative responses. I let them know that I was very aware that they would cut me off and that is what they did. I am sure they will delete this post also. They practice selective allowance of posts on their website. They practice censorship at its very worst. That is the nature of a hate website. These are not fair and balanced discussions. Thank you for trying to educate locked minds. It is a losing gesture when the choices they make are filled with hatred for a specific group of people. This is the nature of the Internet. The world is full of different types of people. Sadly, this website has attracted the very worst imaginable!! Their lives are empty and filled with hatred! Let them wallow in their hatred. We have better, more constructive things to do with our lives. I hope you were able to read this before Care 2 deletes my post. I wish good things and good luck for you both.
 

Dave C. (867)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 10:40 pm
Pathetic.
 

Bryan S. (96)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 11:29 pm
There are some lines of argument that support actions of the IDF no matter what, which follow a certain line of logic, as flawed as it may be, but they are opinions.

Then there are those who have nothing, and can only resort to calling others hateful and racist.
 

Locan Sleeping-Squirrel (209)
Saturday June 12, 2010, 11:35 pm
Di, your comments get deleted because your calling Care2 members shameful names. Josh has proven himself to be terms of service impaired and Gillian, oh forget it. Ever the victim, no wonder you're so married to the myth's of Israel. If you don't like Care2, I'm sure you'll be welcomed elsewhere.

Jerry,
"-- Others are TRYING.I think I am doing rather well for a (mostly) lone voice crying in the wilderness!"
Ya, I've been there many times myself and daresay not in as good humor.

I just have to wonder how many more murdered children can you see to understand that war has become the ultimate cowardice. What's happening in Palestine is not war.
 

Jerry C. (16)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 5:23 am
OK, Cheryl, maybe "temporary cease-fire" or "lull in the action" is a better way of saying it. But, hey, I'm mad as a hatter, so what do I know?

Although you may not think so, I have a lot of respect for people who work for what they think is right and against what they think is wrong. That definitely includes you Cheryl. I think we all want the same thing. Peace.

Locan, there's an interesting book named "The Barking Deer". It's about the Vietnam conflict, and it is very violent, so I don't think you would like the book, but it is built around a supposed Vietnamese folk story. The story is about two predators, a bear and a tiger maybe, who are each fighting to protect the little prey animal, a deer, from the other predator. By the time the predators lose interest, the deer (what they were supposedly fighting to protect) is just a torn carcass on the jungle floor. I think that's a good allegory for what's happening to the children of Israel and Palestine.

I appreciate you noticing that I try not to fight, but only discuss or argue with people. I'll cheerfully try to rip your arguments to shreds, but I try very hard to be painfully polite while doing it.

Bryan, I've enjoyed the discussion. I don't know why, but for some reason i was more aggressive in arguing with you. I hope you don't think less of my because of it.
 

Cheryl Benson (390)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 5:47 am
Gillan posts hasbara if she can get it right even from them, josh aka sasko aka alex, aka
roger, aka, nada, aka? hummn how many were there, didn't get banned for his/her opionin

wow, you would think that it had gotten through that the "anti-semetic" propoganda, is a lie used by isra-el to try to stop any critisim and doesn't work, not for any one intelligent enough to know that Palestinians are semitic , well most Jews are not , and what about Jews who are against Israel, they get called self hating jews,



me, I have been name called here for years, and no one got punished by care2 or suspended although they have been against the COC, but Palestinian supporters were banned from here for years, one a good frined for a whole year for the palestinian cause, UNTIL the gaza massacre, I think then care2 opened it's eyes, Your hasbara can't work with me and I hope the rest of the world wakes up to it faster and faster which it is, israel is loosing, and has lost face so to speak, they rewrote history to suite them the victors always do, however much as been perserved and what really happened to the palestinians and what the zionists really did for centuries to have palestine.

I have finally broken my own standards on another thread and shot back , part of real free speech on facebook as well, although I have been called a lot worse here and frankly am fed up with and the hasbara israel deliberately sends out and their supporters & the jidf. zionists have a history of this even to their own people and brain washing (most government;s do, israel is extreme), even at the expense of millions of Jewish lives in order to have palestine, palestine or nothing.

Palestine is occupation,land theft, ethnic cleasning to name a few, lets not forget resources (planned long before zionists got there, there were palestinian;s and jew's living together in peace before the zionists got there)
anyone who converts to Judism can go to isra-el in the world, while palestinians are refused the right of return, think about that, and take a look at some maps and the actually small amount of land israel was given, no one had any right to give the, althought the times were desparate for them and the zionists were involved with the nazi's in order to get palestine. look at a map now and see what they have taken, look at tourist maps on subways where they mark all of palestine as israel. even their propoganda has become pathetic and shows the desparation, unforuntately the psycical harm and ruined lives of palestinians still goes on,

however israel has pushed the international community too far, our leaders who do nothig but supprt isra-el with large and very wealth Jewish groups who rule politics and many politicians in countries, even israel does, so this has made the international community even more determined:, 50 ships may join Freedom Flotilla II

Fri, 11 Jun 2010 20:29:46 GMT



The next Freedom Flotilla will be much bigger than the first one, the head of a non-governmental organization says.


Yasser Qashlaq, the director of the Free Palestine Movement, said
on Thursday that up to 50 ships could join the Freedom Flotilla II, the
International Middle East Media Center reported.


Meanwhile, the movement, in cooperation with Reporters Without
Borders, is organizing a new mission to send educational supplies to
the children of the besieged Palestinian territory. Qashlaq said a ship
would depart from Lebanon within a week.




The Israeli military attacked the Freedom Flotilla in international
waters in the Mediterranean Sea on May 31, killing nine Turkish
citizens on board the M.V. Mavi Marmara and injuring about 50 other
people who were part of the team on the six-ship convoy.


Israel also arrested and later released nearly 700 activists from
42 countries who were on board the ships of the Freedom Flotilla, which
was attempting to break the siege of Gaza in order to deliver 10,000
tons of humanitarian assistance to the long-suffering people of the
territory.


The Gazans have endured almost three years of an all-out siege, which has deprived them of food, fuel, and other necessities.


HN/HGL

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=130014§ionid=351020202

I know of others signing up on facebook already including volunteers as well as more by land are going VIVA PALESTINA AND BREAK THE SEIGE OF GAZA!.
 

Patricia B. (4)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 6:34 am
Interesting that you mention Facebook!!! Since you know nothing about facts and spout only distortions, listen very carefully!!!!!!!
Facebook is NOT biased. Facebook does NOT interfere OR censor ANYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Facebook allows discussions and EVERYONE of us, no matter our differences, IS RESPECTFUL!!!! This is something you, your followers of hate AND Care 2 need to learn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Linda Mills (104)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 6:43 am
noted. this was sad no matter how you slice it. myself, i pray for peace.
 

Cheryl Benson (390)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 6:52 am
@Di Bi who keeps flagging me, again I say check my news submissions back for YEARS that tell of real history and real FACTS and not zionist hasbara, some are opinion pieces, others are real history, and yes facebook does censor not near as much as care2 actually, and more free speech much more.

@linda yes, I cried for 2 days, I was watching the livestream they had on board until the israeli's cut it off and their satellite
 

Dave C. (867)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 8:25 am
Di B.

Sunday June 13, 2010, 6:34 am

"Interesting that you mention Facebook!!! Since you know nothing about facts and spout only distortions, listen very carefully!!!!!!!
Facebook is NOT biased. Facebook does NOT interfere OR censor ANYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Facebook allows discussions and EVERYONE of us, no matter our differences, IS RESPECTFUL!!!! This is something you, your followers of hate AND Care 2 need to learn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I have no doubt that Facebook is much suited to your needs. That's the place that allows a group calling for
the murder of Israeli Palestinian MK Chanin Zoabi - http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2010/06/03/israeli-palestinian-mk-assaulted-in-knesset/ - who joined the Gaza flotilla and testified that IDF commandos fired on her boat before landing on it.
Care2 would NEVER allow such a group - that's why I'm a proud member OF IT and YOU and your ilk have no place IN IT!
 

Bryan S. (96)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 9:50 am
Jerry, i don't think you've been unpolite and i also enjoy the discussion.

Your statement that Israel has no control that it can exercise in Gaza is certainly not true. Israel has complete control of Gaza's borders - any movements of goods and people. And is free to use military force at any time. It is a territory controlled by an outside force, and thus according to international law, occupied.

Your equating surrounding Arab states to radical suicide bombers says a lot about the way you see the situation. The notion that any of these states have motivation to annihilate themselves, due to Israel's far superior military and nuclear weapons, is bizarre.
 

tara lav (31)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 10:07 am
does anyone wonder why the only boat with such violence was the marmara? did the israeli soldiers decide for some reason to start killing people on just one boat? also the rachel corrie didn't have such violence, last time i checked.
that boat had violent people on it. peole who wanted to be martyrs.
just a side point, the aid ships were asked to bring aid to gilad shalit, an israeli soldier help captive in gaza, and the activists refused.
also dave c., that facebook group is totally wrong, i am very angry at zoabi, but death threats are totally wrong.
 

Just Carole (341)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 10:23 am
 
In doing more research on international law, I found the following to be quite informative:
 
The Attack on the Gaza Flotilla and International Law
 
In particular, I found the following to be of special interest:
 
The Law of Naval Blockade
 
A naval blockade is legitimate form of warfare recognised in international law.(8) It permits a State to interfere with vessels on a defined portion of the ‘high seas’ where it normally has no jurisdiction and where such an interference would be a serious violation of international law. Usually a State blocks enemy merchant shipping that may carry material useful to the enemy State’s war effort. It cannot block humanitarian or purely civilian supplies as this would be waging war on civilians. Starvation blockades are illegal. (9)
 
A blockade also gives a State limited powers of inspection of vessels of neutral States not involved in hostilities for the purpose of establishing whether they are carrying military supplies or not (contraband). The concept of proportionality does apply here because the rights of one State (the right to inspect for contraband) clashes with the rights of another (sovereign rights, free passage).
 
A blockade is only lawful in two circumstances; it is authorised by a Resolution of the UN Security Council,(10) or it is applied in the context of a war between States. In the latter circumstance a blockade must comply with certain conditions:
 
- A blockading State must be at war with the blockaded State or a ‘belligerent’.(11) Israel refuses to recognise ‘Gaza’ or ‘Hamas’ as a State or as a belligerent. It thus robs the Palestinians of any legal status so as to deny them the protection of international law. Furthermore Palestine does not exist in international law as a State.
 
- The blockading State must notify all States likely to be effected of the area under blockade. Normally a blockading State lodges a notice with maritime organizations, including a map specifying the blockaded area – or sends diplomatic notes to the relevant countries. Since Israel considers itself immune from international law, it has given no notice to anyone.
 
- Blockades targeting the civilian population are illegal. Several UN bodies have stated that the effect of the blockade is to significantly harm the population of Gaza. That this is also the intention of the blockade is evidenced by the fact that Israel rejects UN and EU proposals to monitor the blockade. This would prevent the supply of military contraband – but would make it impossible to impose a 'starvation blockade', Israel’s real intention.
 
Israel’s blockade of Gaza is therefore illegal.
 
 

Dave C. (867)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 10:39 am
tara lav

Sunday June 13, 2010, 10:07 am

". . .also dave c., that facebook group is totally wrong, i am very angry at zoabi, but death threats are totally wrong."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

An elaboration of that rather interesting and illuminating statement would be very much appreciated Tara. . . Please tell us - your fellow members of Care2 - exactly why, you are so "very angry at zoabi"?
 

Dave C. (867)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 11:37 am
“The Government Is Drowning Us All”.

Uri Avnery attacked by rightist thugs.

A disaster was averted yesterday (June 5) at Tel-Aviv’s Museum Square, when rightists threw a smoke grenade into the middle of the protest rally, obviously hoping for a panic to break out and cause the protesters to trample on each other. But the demonstrators remained calm, nobody started to run and just a small space in the middle of the crowd remained empty. The speaker did not stop talking even when the cloud of smoke reached the stage. The audience included many children.
Half an hour later, a dozen rightist thugs attacked Gush Shalom’s 86 year old Uri Avnery, when he was on his way from the rally in the company of his wife, Rachel, Adam Keller and his wife Beate Zilversmidt. Avnery had just entered a taxi, when a dozen rightist thugs attacked him and tried to drag him out of the car. At the critical moment, the police arrived and made it possible for the car to leave. Gush spokesman Adam Keller said: “These cowards did not dare to attack us when we were many, but they were heroes when they caught Avnery alone.”
The incident took place when the more than 10 thousand demonstrators were dispersing, after marching through the streets of Tel Aviv in protest against the attack on the Gaza-bound aid flotilla.
Not only was this one of the largest peace demonstrations for a long time, but also the first time that all parts of the Israeli peace camp - from Gush Shalom and Hadash to Peace Now and Meretz – did unite for common action
The main slogan was “The Government Is Drowning All of Us” and “We must Row towards Peace!” - alluding to the attack on the flotilla. The protesters called in unison “Jews and Arabs Refuse to be Enemies!”
The demonstrators assembled at Rabin Square and marched to Museum Square, where the protest rally was held. Originally, this was planned as a demonstration against the occupation on its 43th anniversary, and for peace based on “Two States for Two Peoples” and “Jerusalem – Capital of the Two States”, but recent events turned it mainly into a protest against the attack on the flotilla.
One of the new sights was the great number of national flags, which were flown alongside the red flags of Hadash, the green flags of Meretz and the two-flag emblems of Gush Shalom. Many peace activists have decided that the national flag should no longer be left to the rightists.
“The violence of the rightists is a direct result of the brainwashing, which has been going on throughout the last week,” Avnery commented. “A huge propaganda machine has incited the public in order to cover up the terrible mistakes made by our political and military leadership, mistakes which are becoming worse from day to day.”

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/events/1275859507
 

Locan Sleeping-Squirrel (209)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 11:58 am
Tara, none of the other boats were boarded in the same manner and none before had elite commandos being lowered in such a hostile manner. This craft was 80 miles offshore heading away from the shoreline at the time of attack.

Do you have a source for your information about aid that was refused for Gilad Shalit? Not that it matters, The boats wouldn't have been let through anyway.
 

Just Carole (341)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 12:06 pm

Thank you very much for mentioning sources, Locan!

One thing I've noticed (pretty consistently) is that, while I and others make a point of citing references for our statements, I don't see that happening on the opposing side of the debate. What I'm hearing is opinion, which is fine -- UNLESS your opinion is supposed to be founded upon some fact, in which case, others should also be permitted to review your source.

 

Cheryl Benson (390)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 12:30 pm
I give opinion and regarding citing sources, I am not going through 5 years of my submissions here and others often with links under mine, and posting the links again for each statement I make, they can do the work and go through my submissions themselves, I am not up to it and rather fed up.
 

Barb PL (1062)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 12:31 pm
Thanks Cheryl & Carol for posting and fwdg this video and information.

First off the Israeli government made their ill intentions clear, they planned on stopping the Humanitarian Aid from getting to Gaza at any cost. They had no business stopping the convoy of ships filled with civilians, activists and supplies. To suggest that they The Israeli Armed forces) were in any danger by nine activists with slingshots is absurd.
Also it's good to see some sheep people around the world finally opening their eyes... noticing every time there is an incident between Israel and anyone having to do with Palestine, the Israeli government does everything humanly possible to shut down all news coverage. Why? Because the world would see the truth. Israelis have been speaking out against their governments terrorist actions. Israeli citizens and activist being beaten and attacked while police sit by and do nothing unless they join in beating on the people who are speaking out for the truth.
As sad as I am for the innocent children and people of Palestine, suffering and going without the supplies they need, I am glad Israel has finally made such a mistake that the whole world is now looking for the truth.
 

Just Carole (341)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 12:43 pm

Cheryl, I understand what you're saying, but what I'm referring to is when I (or anyone) posts a summary of international law (with the source) . . . and another person disputes it (without a source).

No, I do not expect anyone to cite a reference for their own personal judgment/opinion of a situation.
 

Jerry C. (16)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 1:57 pm
Bryan - you're saying Israe controls the Gaza/Egypt border?

Carole - either Gaza/Hamas are separate from israel and this is a blockade, or they are part of Israel and Israel is closing its own ports. Either way, it's legal. If you think Israel didn't give proprietary notification, file a protest. It's not required, just customary.

Israel is providing and allowing humanitarian aid, so this isn't a starvation blockade.

It's legal. You don't like Israel's classifications of "humanitarian aid" vs. "luxury goods" and military goods, but it's legal.

 

Just Carole (341)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 1:58 pm

Because you said so?
 

Just Carole (341)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 2:28 pm

Dave, thank you for posting "The Government Is Drowning Us All." In reading it (and viewing all the excuses made by Zionist supporters), this paragraph is quite true:

“The violence of the rightists is a direct result of the brainwashing, which has been going on throughout the last week,” Avnery commented. “A huge propaganda machine has incited the public in order to cover up the terrible mistakes made by our political and military leadership, mistakes which are becoming worse from day to day.”

I wonder if there is ANYTHING too outrageous for that government to perpetrate that its supporters would ever question or condemn!
 

Dave C. (867)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 3:37 pm
"I wonder if there is ANYTHING too outrageous for that government to perpetrate that its supporters would ever question or condemn!"

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You hit the nail right on the head there Carole. . .sadly. . .
 

Jerry C. (16)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 5:52 pm
I think so. And none of you have said anything that remotely comes close to challenging my logic. You have made emotional statements, but never once challenged the logical progression of the ideas I am discussing.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
JC - "A naval blockade is legitimate form of warfare recognised in international law.(8) It permits a State to interfere with vessels on a defined portion of the ‘high seas’ where it normally has no jurisdiction and where such an interference would be a serious violation of international law."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
-- Quoted from YOUR post. Interfering with with vessels in international water is acceptable. Haven't I been saying that all along?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
JC -"A blockade also gives a State limited powers of inspection of vessels of neutral States not involved in hostilities for the purpose of establishing whether they are carrying military supplies or not (contraband). The concept of proportionality does apply here because the rights of one State (the right to inspect for contraband) clashes with the rights of another (sovereign rights, free passage). "
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
-- Again, quoted from YOUR post up the page. Again, haven't I been saying that all along? The concept of proportionality roughly dictates that the loss of life and property incidental to a military attack must not be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage expected to be gained. The concrete gain to Israel of preventing the flotilla from "breaking the blockade" was huge. The response of the Israeli force against the flotilla "activists" was not even close to being excessive. They were attacked before they boarded, as evidenced in the multiple videos we've discussed before. (why doesn't anybody want to talk about that?) They responded with limited, accurate fire, killing only 9 of their attackers. Ships which did not attack them suffered NO casualties.

And, just for the record, I don't think I have ever disputed your quotes of international law. I have, on the other hand, interpreted them differently and pointed out what I saw as weaknesses in your, and other people's, interpretations.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
JC -"Several UN bodies have stated that the effect of the blockade is to significantly harm the population of Gaza."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
-- Under international law the blockade is illegal if either:
(a) it has the sole purpose of starving the civilian population or denying it other objects essential for its survival; or

(b) the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade.

Starvation is not the sole goal, nor is it happening. The direct military benefit of this blockade is immense. It is greatly complicating Hamas' efforts to acquire rockets, guns, ammunition and explosives for attacking and killing Israeli civilians (men, women and children). The blockade is paying off in military terms.

Since neither (a) nor (b) is true, under international law, this blockade is legal.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
JC - "That this is also the intention of the blockade is evidenced by the fact that Israel rejects UN and EU proposals to monitor the blockade"
"Several UN bodies have stated that the effect of the blockade is to significantly harm the population of Gaza."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
-- If a UN bureaucrat told me it was a sunny day outside, I'd immediately walk outside to check And I'd take an umbrella.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
JC -"I wonder if there is ANYTHING too outrageous for that government to perpetrate that its supporters would ever question or condemn!"
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

-- I can't speak for others, but for me, they could break international law. Then I would condemn them. But that's not what's happening now. It seems to me that many people on care2 suffer from the "somebody's hurting, somebody must be responsible, somebody must be punished" point of view. I disagree. Sometimes people are hurting and there is either no clear villain, or there is no way to punish the villain. You all scream about "collective punishment" being evil, but that's what you want for Israel.

Every time the Israeli leaders have broken international law in the past, I have been against it. So has every Jew I know.

@Bryan - You said:
"Your equating surrounding Arab states to radical suicide bombers says a lot about the way you see the situation. The notion that any of these states have motivation to annihilate themselves, due to Israel's far superior military and nuclear weapons, is bizarre. "
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

-- Upon further reflection I think you are right. Obviously MAD is working to some degree. I still don't think that saying "none of the surrounding countries threaten their survival at all" is correct either. I think the answer is somewhere in between our two statements.

For example, look at Hamas' brutal usage of the Palestinian people as human shields against Israel. Hamas' charter clearly states that they will not stop until Israel is gone. The suffering of the Palestinian people seems to be beneath their notice. So, they may not be suicidal, but they are certainly willing to burn through Palestinian men, women and children for as long as it takes to destroy Israel. That's, perhaps, a corporate version of the homicidal intentions of a suicide bomber. I think if you said to the leaders of Hamas, "We have a plan to destroy Israel, but it will require the horrific death of every Palestinian in Gaza", they wouldn't even need to think about it. They would sign in blood immediately.


 

Just Carole (341)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 6:02 pm

That may work with most of your compatriots, Jerry (who, I guess, you are writing this for).

HOWEVER, true to a propagandist, you have omitted KEY PHRASES:

"-- Quoted from YOUR post. Interfering with with vessels in international water is acceptable. Haven't I been saying that all along? "

The phrase was -- most importantly -- "on a defined portion of the ‘high seas’ "

And, in fact, after seeing your RIDICULOUS manipulations of the language -- for the end effort of dehumanizing people -- I don't even want to continue to debunk your rhetoric. I have human rights issues to devote my time to . . .

(I don't speak double-talk and jibberish.)


 

Jerry C. (16)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 6:31 pm
Frankly, I don't think I have any "compatriots" here. It's just me...

How could I have "omitted" the phrase when I quoted you DIRECTLY above that statement? In fact, in your response YOU have omitted a key phrase. Are you suggesting the "on a defined portion of the ‘high seas' WHERE IT NORMALLY HAS NO JURISDICTION" means something other than "international waters"? OK, I guess that might be true. I don't know what it means, though, if that's not it.

As for the rest of your post, I repeat what I said before: "...none of you have said anything that remotely comes close to challenging my logic. You have made emotional statements, but never once challenged the logical progression of the ideas I am discussing."

Good luck with your human rights issues. I wish you well.

 

Jerry C. (16)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 6:35 pm
I did leave out a citation in my post above (sorry):

San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The San Remo Manual explicitly states that this prohibition applies to blockades in Article 102:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
102. The declaration or establishment of a blockade is prohibited if:

(a) it has the sole purpose of starving the civilian population or denying it other objects essential for its survival; or

(b) the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 

Just Carole (341)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 6:35 pm
"...none of you have said anything that remotely comes close to challenging my logic."

I do not bother challenging that which does not exist. I have seen NO empathy from you for the Palestinians. You have consistently dehumanized them, and portrayed them in terms equating them with barbarians, devoid of caring -- even for their own lives. That is fanaticism.

Immediately, I distrust such over-the-top characterizations, and avoid people who use them.

 

Jerry C. (16)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 6:49 pm
First of all, my LOGIC does exist, my empathy, maybe it's not showing through very well.

I don't believe I have dehumanized the Palestinian people, I have portrayed the Hamas organization in the terms you mentioned and believe they are accurate. I believe (and I may be wrong) that I have stated here several times that I feel for the Palestinian people.

If I haven't, let me say so now. I feel great empathy and pain for the suffering of the Palestinians, the children especially. I have a tremendous longing for this war to be over. I believe the electing an organization which states in its charter that it WILL NOT STOP until Israel is destroyed is NOT in the best interest of the Palestinian people and has led to their greater suffering.

I KNOW I have stated here that I believe short wars are better than long wars. Hamas is in this for the long haul and it simply doesn't seem to matter to them, in my opinion, how many Palestinians have to die. In my opinion, then, anything that weakens Hamas is better for the Palestinian people in the long run. Hamas (and other organizations like it) is a cancer that is killing the Palestinians and needs to be removed.
 

Jerry C. (16)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 7:21 pm
"You have consistently dehumanized them, and portrayed them in terms equating them with barbarians, devoid of caring -- even for their own lives. That is fanaticism.

Immediately, I distrust such over-the-top characterizations, and avoid people who use them"

I am going to call BS on that statement. That's exactly how most of the people here portray the Israelis and you don't seem to have any problem with it in that direction.
 

Just Carole (341)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 7:24 pm

You've already proven that you wouldn't recognize BS if it oozed from your own mouth . . . which it has.

I have no problem with Jews or Israelis (I have friends who are both). I DO, however, have a problem with Zionist propaganda.

 

Jerry C. (16)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 7:27 pm
With that statement you've ended the discussion.

Have a nice life.
 

Locan Sleeping-Squirrel (209)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 7:29 pm
Jerry, if it important to you that you claim victory, go ahead. No one is stopping you. If you need that, by all means claim it.
Just because you have taken on all comers and seem to be more knowledgeable of international law than everyday people doesn't in fact mean you are accurate. I've noticed parts of your logic that does not jibe with what we are told my actual Israeli spokesmen. Just because you say it's not collective punishment does not mean that it isn't.
It's not your logic thats in question, it's your selective humanity.

I apologize if I offend and have to admit having trouble saying all I want, but I can say that I truly appreciate your allowing us into the world, as Jerry sees it.
 

Locan Sleeping-Squirrel (209)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 7:34 pm
"Hamas is in this for the long haul and it simply doesn't seem to matter to them, in my opinion, how many Palestinians have to die. In my opinion, then, anything that weakens Hamas is better for the Palestinian people in the long run. Hamas (and other organizations like it) is a cancer that is killing the Palestinians and needs to be removed."
And yet, are they not strengthened by this, only the latest in a litany of over the top heavy handed military action against civilians that occur everyday?
 

Jerry C. (16)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 7:39 pm
Actually, victory is not the point. Open discussion without personal attacks is the point. Some would call it arguing...

I enjoy it. My wife assures me that other people don't. Apparently most of them hang out here.

I don't intend to offend anybody, but obviously manage to do it anyway. For that I truly am sorry.
 

Jerry C. (16)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 7:42 pm
So I'm confused. Are we discussing again, Locan?
 

Jelica R. (159)
Sunday June 13, 2010, 10:11 pm

Did Israel press on with bloody attack on Mavi Marmara even as ship fled at full-speed?

UPDATED: Mavi Marmara was fleeing west at full-speed at time Israel claims "rioters initiate confrontation with IDF soldiers," and had already been under sustained attack for some time.

View Mavi Marmara route May 30-31, 2010 in a larger map.

The ship Mavi Marmara was not heading toward Israel or Israeli territorial waters when it was attacked, boarded and comandeered by Israeli forces in the early hours of 31 May in the international waters of the Mediterranean Sea approximately 85 miles west of Haifa. Had it stayed on its heading at that time it would not even have approached Gaza's waters.

Once the attack began, Mavi Marmara apparently attempted to take evasive action, but Israel pressed on with its violent takeover of the ship nevertheless. Nine people were killed and dozens wounded when Israeli forces in fast patrol boats and helicopters attacked and boarded the Mavi Marmara, which was part of the six-ship Freedom Flotilla that had set out to break the blockade of the Gaza Strip.

Israel commandeered all six ships in the flotilla and forced them to sail to the port of Ashdod where the approximately 700 passengers from dozens of nationalities were held, and their property including images and video seized, until the vast majority were expelled from Israel. The ships, including the Mavi Marmara, and all their navigational equipment and logs, remain in Israeli possession.

At a certain point during the Israeli attack, the Mavi Marmara turned sharply west and sped up significantly, directly away from Israel and the Gaza Strip. It is unclear whether the Israelis already controlled the ship at that time or whether its change of course was an attempt by the crew to escape the Israeli attack. If the Israelis controlled the ship already it seems more likely that they would have turned east, toward Ashdod, rather than west.

Automatic Identification System (AIS) data transmitted by the Mavi Marmara and captured on the web site Marine Traffic indicates that prior to the Israeli attack, the Mavi Marmara, and presumably the rest of the flotilla in close formation, were traveling due south, parallel to the coast of Israel at a distance of more than 80 miles -- well outside Israel's 12-mile territorial limit. At 00:56:46 UTC (Coordinated Universal Time), or 3:56 am local time (UTC+3), according to the AIS data, Mavi Marmara was at coordinates N 32° 47' 37.3518", E 33° 31' 34.14" and moving south southwest on heading 184 at 7.4 knots.

The exact moment the Israeli assault on the Mavi Marmara began is difficult to pinpoint, but most eyewitnesses have said it occurred roughly between 4 and 4:30 am local time (01:00 to 01:30 UTC) and coincided with the performance of fajr (dawn) prayers by a number of the ship's Muslim passengers.

It is not yet clear how long it took for the Israelis to gain full control of the ship. It was been widely reported there was a considerable struggle. Israel has so far released only highly selective video clips with time stamps obscured.

Australian journalist Paul McGeough, who was on one of the smaller ships, reported:

“The Israeli attack was timed for dawn prayers -– when a good number of the men aboard the Mavi Marmara were praying on the aft deck of the big Turkish passenger ferry, as it motored steadily through international waters in the eastern Mediterranean Sea.”

McGeough adds:

“Jerry Campbell awoke at 4 am [01:00 UTC] to attend dawn prayers but she had hardly bowed her head before she was dragged off to a nursing station to help treat four gunshot victims.”

Similarly, Norazma Abdullah, a Malaysian national, told Reuters, "The Israelis just attacked us without warning after dawn prayer," adding, "They fired with some rubber bullets but after some time they used live ammunition. Five were dead on the spot and after that we surrendered." ("Israel attacked ships 'without warning,' freed activists say", Reuters, 2 June 2010).

Dawn prayers are usually performed at or shortly after the start of astronomical twilight, the period when the center of the sun is between 12° and 18° below the horizon -- when it is still dark. Passengers on the ships were observing Eastern European Summer Time.

Aljazeera correspondent Jamal Elshayyal who was on the Mavi Marmara wrote, "Just after 4 am local time, the Israeli military attacked the ship, in international waters. It was an unprovoked attack. Tear gas was used, sound grenades were launched, and rubber coated steel bullets were fired from almost every direction."

At 01:35:20 UTC, or 4:35 am local time, the ship had apparently accelerated to 11 knots and begun to turn west, directly away from Israel. At that point it was located at N 32° 42' 52.848", E 33° 31' 0.2604" and moving southwest on heading 195.

At 01:51 UTC (4:51 am local), the Twitter account @ShipToGazaGr, which was in direct contact with the two Greek-flagged flotilla ships Eleftheri Mesogeios and Sfendoni tweeted, "we have lost comms with ship, last contact was mentioning attack, we are in alert mode."

At that moment, 01:51:00 UTC, Mavi Marmara was already due almost straight west on heading 247 away from Israel and the Gaza Strip and had sped up to 12.6 knots.

At 01:59 UTC ( 4:59 am local time) the Mavi Marmara was located, according to AIS data, at N 32° 41' 5.7834", E 33° 26' 15.975" and was due west on heading 276, at 12.7 knots.

Fifteen minutes later, at 02:14:06 UTC (5.14 local time) Mavi Marmara had slowed down sharply to 2.4 knots and had begun making a sharp turn to the north. At 02:21:40 UTC, Mavi Marmara was headed straight north.

By that time, it is clear the Israeli attack had already been well underway. Turkish television carrying a live video feed from the ship was already reporting at least two people dead and 30 injured based on statements by passengers heard over the live video feed from the ship.

I was watching Turkish television over the internet and at 02:21 UTC, I tweeted, "URGENT: Turkish TV: Israel attacks Mavi Marmari, 2 Dead, 30 injured #Flotilla #Gaza," and posted a screen capture of the TV screen. The TV shot carries Turkish local time of 5:17 am (UTC+3) which was 02:17 UTC.

The Mavi Marmara continued to slow almost to a halt, and by 02:51:58 UTC (5:51 am local time), at a reported speed of just 0.2 knots, it had begun to turn east. It then began to gather speed slightly, and its last reported position at 03:17:34 UTC (6:17 am local time) was at N 32° 41' 43.5768", E 33° 23' 5.1678" and it was on an eastbound heading of 74 at a speed of 0.7 knots.

After this, there is no more AIS data. Presumably the ship was then under full Israeli control and had begun to head toward Ashdod.

These data -- if corroborated -- raise even more troubling questions about Israel's attack on the flotilla. At the time of the attack, the ships were definitely not headed toward Israel and not, at the time of the attack, on a direct track to Gaza.

Israeli warships had been shadowing the flotilla for some time. According to Aljazeera's Elshayyal, they had been spotted at approximately 11 pm local time (20:00 UTC) and passengers had been ordered to don life vests. Elshayyal reported that, "At 2 am local time [23:00 UTC] the organisers informed me that they had re-routed the ship, as far away from Israel as possible, as deep into international waters as they could. They did not want a confrontation with the Israeli military, at least not by night."

Gulf News reporter Abbas Al-Lawati (@allawati on Twitter), who was aboard the ship, told me by telephone today that he too was told by flotilla organizers that the ships would re-route slightly to "buy-time" and avoid any confrontation with the Israelis.

The AIS data does not show that the Mavi Marmara changed course around that time, but rather remained on a southerly track that was taking it gradually further west, deeper into international waters.

The Israeli account, as given by the office of the IDF Spokesperson was as follows:

“Early this morning, IDF Naval Forces boarded six ships attempting to break the maritime closure of the Gaza Strip. This happened after numerous warnings from Israel and the Israeli Navy that were issued prior to the action. The Israel Navy requested the ships to redirect toward Ashdod where they would be able to unload their aid supplies which would then be transferred over land after undergoing security inspections.”

The Israeli account added,

“The interception of the flotilla followed numerous warnings given to the organizers of the flotilla before leaving their ports as well as while sailing towards the Gaza Strip.”Yet the navigation data indicate the ships weren't actually headed "towards" Gaza at the time they were attacked. An independent investigation -- which Israel has so far refused -- must address the following questions:

• Where was the flotilla and which direction was it heading when Israel attacked it?
• Why did Israel choose to attack when it did? Did the Israelis take a strategic decision to hijack the flotilla under any circumstances as a show of force? If so, for tactical reasons, the Israelis might have wanted to do this under cover of darkness and may have planned the attack to take place at a specific hour regardless of where the ships were actually located and heading at that time. The time the attack took place would indeed have been the last opportunity for Israel to move during darkness.
• Who caused the Mavi Marmara to turn sharply west and accelerate in the midst of the Israeli attack? If this was an evasive action, why did Israel press on with a bloody military attack on a civilian passenger ship that was fleeing at full speed, especially when passengers aboard were pleading for the attack to stop, saying that the ship had surrendered, and that there were wounded on board who needed treatment? (Denis Healey, captain of one of the smaller Greek-flagged boats, told me by telephone from Cyprus that the normal cruising speed of the flotilla was 7-8 knots because the cargo ships could not go much faster).
• Who decided and why did they decide to carry out a military operation against civilian ships when there were any number of alternatives including allowing the ships to proceed to Gaza following inspection? Did Israel decide to make an example of the Free Gaza Flotilla?

Israel's attack on the flotilla was an illegal act that resulted in the deaths of at least nine people: Ibrahim Bilgen (61), Ali Haydar Bengi (39), Cevdet Kiliçlar (38), Çetin Topçuoglu (54), Necdet Yildirim (32), Fahri Yaldiz (43), Cengiz Songür (47), Cengiz Akyüz (41) and Furkan Dogan (19).

The possibility that Israel initiated the attack on the ships when they were heading away from its shores, and pressed on with it when at least one of them, the largest, Mavi Marmara tried to flee at full speed, only compounds the crime. There must be a full, independent investigation. There must be justice for the victims and their families.

Update 1: Mavi Marmara was fleeing at high speed when IDF claims passengers "initiate confrontation with IDF soldiers"

In order to bolster its claim that its soldiers killed passengers aboard the Mavi Marmara in self-defense, amid a brutal and pre-planned attack by "rioters," the Israeli army released a video on 2 June apparently taken from the ship's closed circuit TV cameras. The IDF statement accompanying the video claims:

“The passengers of the Gaza flotilla are seen here preparing for confrontation with the IDF soldiers. The rioters put on gas masks and arm themselves with rods, slingshots, broken bottles, metal objects, and water hoses. As the IDF soldiers approach the ship the rioters immediately attack the forces by hurling these objects at them.” On the video, the Israeli army has placed a caption stating "Rioters initiate confrontation with IDF soldiers."

The video shows passengers wearing life vests, some carrying sticks or other makeshift weapons and looking over the sides of the ship as if in anticipation of boarding attempts by Israeli soldiers.

But the time stamp indicates the video was taken at 5:03 am (02:03 UTC). If this is accurate then the ship had already been under attack for almost an hour, and at this time was located at position N 32° 41' 7.8714", E 33° 25' 10.0164" and was due directly west on heading 271 at speed 12.7 knots. In other words, far from preparing to "initiate confrontation," the passengers were attempting desperately to defend a fleeing ship that had already come under a lethal and sustained attack from the sea and from the air.

Once again, it is clear that nothing the IDF or Israeli government says can be taken at face value -- especially when they are withholding video and other media confiscated from passengers, while releasing highly selective and manipulated materials in order to offer a narrative that has proven time and again to be falsified.

 

Lone Merise Frederiksen (16)
Monday June 14, 2010, 3:13 am
What an interesting discussion. I really enjoy reading Jerry's posts as he truly understands how to discuss and debate without getting emotional. I'm sure that doesn't mean that he doesn't have an emotional opinion on the subject - it's just not very healthy to be ruled by emotions here. I believe it's people's strong emotions that keep the 'Israel vs. Palestine'-war so alive. More power to ya, Jerry! :-)
 

Dawn W. (2)
Monday June 14, 2010, 6:13 am
Shouldn't have been there in the first place.
 

Dawn W. (2)
Monday June 14, 2010, 7:19 pm
Jerry C. and Gillian; you are among the 1% of people that will look beyond 'what appears', the other 99% only see what propagandists want them to.

The old adage is true, 'Believe half of what you see and nothing of what you hear'.
 

Jerry C. (16)
Monday June 14, 2010, 7:46 pm
Why thank you, Lone. And you as well Dawn.

I do have an emotion opinion, but I try very hard to not let it rule what I say. I do get a little smart-ass sometimes.

@Locan - you said "And yet, are they not strengthened by this, only the latest in a litany of over the top heavy handed military action against civilians that occur everyday?"

-- That's the million dollar question of course. I wish I KNEW the answer, as opposed to only having an opinion about the answer. I think you know what my opinion is.
 

Bryan S. (96)
Monday June 14, 2010, 11:08 pm
Jerry, you talk about logic but your whole premise is based on falsehoods. Israel's blockade is illegal under international law because they are not in a state of war with Gaza. Again, Gaza is internationally recognized as an occupied territory. Just because Egypt is allied in this doesn't somehow change the situation betweein Israel and Palestine.

Second, you insist that Hamas will never rest until Israel is destroyed, therefore any violence Israel perpetrates anywhere is justified. That is wrong in itself, but reality also contradicts your claim. From July to Nov
of 2008, rocket attacks from Palestine went to almost nothing because of a truce. Yes, a truce that Hamas obeyed. Israel was supposed to end its blockade which it didn't (it let in some additional supplies). After an Israeli raid which left 6 Palestinians dead in Nov '08, the rocket fire started again. Then of course on Dec. 27 Israel invaded Palestine.

And just in general, if you want to justify what Israel has done because of rocket fire, then you'd have to justify whatever Hamas does 10 times over.

I don't want to justify either side, but i'm not going to entertain some nonsense about Israel's actions being defense against a waring state that refuses to change.
 

Dave C. (867)
Monday June 14, 2010, 11:27 pm
Israel’s Cult Of Victimhood

By Jonathan Cook

10 June, 2010
Countercurrents.org

Why are Israelis so indignant at the international outrage that has greeted their country’s lethal attack last week on a flotilla of civilian ships taking aid to Gaza?

Israelis have not responded in any of the ways we might have expected. There has been little soul-searching about the morality, let alone legality, of soldiers invading ships in international waters and killing civilians. In the main, Israelis have not been interested in asking tough questions of their political and military leaders about why the incident was handled so badly. And only a few commentators appear concerned about the diplomatic fall-out.

Instead, Israelis are engaged in a Kafkaesque conversation in which the military attack on the civilian ships is characterised as a legitimate “act of self-defence”, as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called it, and the killing of nine aid activists is transformed into an attempted “lynching of our soldiers” by terrorists.

Benny Begin, a government minister whose famous father, Menachem, became an Israeli prime minister after being what today would be called a terrorist as the leader of the notorious Irgun militia, told BBC World TV that the commandos had been viciously assaulted after “arriving almost barefoot”. Ynet, Israel’s most popular news website, meanwhile, reported that the commandos had been “ambushed”.

This strange discourse can only be deciphered if we understand the two apparently contradictory themes that have come to dominate the emotional landscape of Israel. The first is a trenchant belief that Israel exists to realise Jewish power; the second is an equally strong sense that Israel embodies the Jewish people’s collective experience as the eternal victims of history.

Israelis are not entirely unaware of this paradoxical state of mind, sometimes referring to it as the “shooting and crying” syndrome.

It is the reason, for example, that most believe their army is the “most moral in the world”. The “soldier as victim” has been given dramatic form in Gilad Shalit, the “innocent” soldier held by Hamas for the past four years who, when he was captured, was enforcing Israel’s illegal occupation of Gaza.

One commentator in Israel’s Haaretz newspaper summed up the feelings of Israelis brought to the fore by the flotilla episode as the “helplessness of a poor lonely victim, confronting the rage of a lynch mob and frantically realising that these are his last moments”. This “psychosis”, as he called it, is not surprising: it derives from the sanctified place of the Holocaust in the Israeli education system.

The Holocaust’s lesson for most Israelis is not a universal one that might inspire them to oppose racism, or fanatical dictators or the bullying herd mentality that can all too quickly grip nations, or even state-sponsored genocide.

Instead, Israelis have been taught to see in the Holocaust a different message: that the world is plagued by a unique and ineradicable hatred of Jews, and that the only safety for the Jewish people is to be found in the creation of a super-power Jewish state that answers to no one. Put bluntly, Israel’s motto is: only Jewish power can prevent Jewish victimhood.

That is why Israel acquired a nuclear weapon as fast it could, and why it is now marshalling every effort to stop any other state in the region from breaking its nuclear monopoly. It is also why the Israeli programme’s sole whistle-blower, Mordechai Vanunu, is a pariah 24 years after committing his “offence”. Six years on from his release to a form of loose house arrest, his hounding by the authorities -- he was jailed again last month for talking to foreigners -- has attracted absolutely no interest or sympathy in Israel.

If Mr Vanunu’s continuing abuse highlights Israel’s oppressive desire for Jewish power, Israelis’ self-righteousness about their navy’s attack on the Gaza flotilla reveals the flipside of this pyschosis.

The angry demonstrations sweeping the country against the world’s denunciations; the calls to revoke the citizenship of the Israeli Arab MP on board -- or worse, to execute her -- for treason; and the local media’s endless recycling of the soldiers’ testimonies of being “bullied” by the activists demonstrate the desperate need of Israelis to justify every injustice or atrocity while clinging to the illusion of victimhood.

The lessons imbibed from this episode -- like the lessons Israelis learnt from the Goldstone report last year into the war crimes committed during Israel’s attack on Gaza, or the international criticisms of the massive firepower unleashed on Lebanon before that -- are the same: that the world hates us, and that we are alone.

If the confrontation with the activists on the flotilla has proved to Israelis that the unarmed passengers were really terrorists, the world’s refusal to stay quiet has confirmed what Israelis already knew: that, deep down, non-Jews are all really anti-Semites.

Meanwhile, the lesson the rest of us need to draw from the deadly commando raid is that the world can no longer afford to indulge these delusions.

http://www.countercurrents.org/cook100610.htm
 

Locan Sleeping-Squirrel (209)
Monday June 14, 2010, 11:59 pm
Sorry for the confusion, Jerry. After I submitted my comment, that statement (along with others) stood out and just doesn't make sense to me. So let me get this right, you know as certainty and speak with apparent authority of how Hamas will act toward Israel, but cannot give an opinion if you think Hamas is strengthened by the recent massacre, because you don't know?

Maybe you were just tired, certainly understandable.

You cannot currently send a star to Dave because you have done so within the last week.
 

Jerry C. (16)
Tuesday June 15, 2010, 4:25 am
Locan - You said "So let me get this right, you know as certainty and speak with apparent authority of how Hamas will act toward Israel, but cannot give an opinion if you think Hamas is strengthened by the recent massacre, because you don't know? "

OK, let me state my position more clearly. I don't know.

You've asked a question and I've answered it. It is really interesting to me that on the one hand you seem to be subjecting me to ridicule for because I "speak with apparent authority" (thanks for that, by the way, I'll do my best to live up to it), but on the other hand seem to be critical of me because I say I don't know.

I have an opinion, and I think I've made it clear. My opinion, at the moment, is that it doesn't strengthen them, but I really just don't know how it will play out. I do think that it strengthens the anti-Israeli movement in general, at least in the short run. Is that answer more acceptable to you?

My statements of OPINION (clearly identified as such) about how Hamas will act toward Israel are based on what Hamas itself says and does, so that's not much of a stretch to predict.

Hey, Dave C.!! I know you swore a vow of abstinence regarding me, so I won't expect a response, but did you notice? My new icon is in honor of you. And my grandfather, of course (he really was a hatmaker).

Bryan, I think we understand each other and where we disagree. I respect your opinion and I'm obviously not going to change it. I respect your passion for what you believe. Let's agree to disagree.
 

Bryan S. (96)
Tuesday June 15, 2010, 10:31 am
True Jerry, opinions probably won't change here. One thing i didn't mention before, in the same way i don't hold back in criticizing the US invasion of Iraq, as one example, and believe that action has done much to hurt America, i also criticize the policy of the Israeli government and believe it ultimately hurts the Israeli citizens. I'm not anti-Israeli when it comes to any people living there.
 

Jerry C. (16)
Tuesday June 15, 2010, 10:58 am
I don't doubt your sincerity or caring heart for a minute, Bryan.
 

Locan Sleeping-Squirrel (209)
Tuesday June 15, 2010, 10:28 pm
Wasn't trying to ridicule you, Jerry, I'm sorry if it appeared as such. I used that example but I have read numerous comments of yours purporting to know how Hamas will respond to various hypothetical situations.
 

Jerry C. (16)
Wednesday June 16, 2010, 5:27 am
Ok, I'll buy that. Thanks for the apology.

I've TRIED to identify my opinions as such. I know I haven't always been consistent.
 

Locan Sleeping-Squirrel (209)
Wednesday June 16, 2010, 6:32 pm
Fair enough, I believe we both do the best we can, as we can.
 

Patricia B. (4)
Thursday June 17, 2010, 5:07 am
It is especially good to see the truth shown below from Austrailia, since this website is an Australian publication which allows distortions of the facts by deleting honest posts that present documented truths about this conflict! This is just one of many, coming from NON Jewish People who KNOW the truth and have NO AGENDA or reason to LIE!!! My thanks go out to all who acknowledge truth!

Read the truth below!!

Jewish Online News from Australia and New Zealand

Liberal Senator rises to Israel’s defence



June 16, 2010 by admin

Victorian Liberal Senator Scott Ryan last night told the Australian Senate that there was “a highly orchestrated media campaign to vilify Israel” in the wake of the Gaza Flotilla Incident.


Senator Scott Ryan

“Several weeks ago we were informed that Israel had allegedly outrageously intervened to stop a so-called peace flo- tilla, with commandos launching themselves at a peaceful armada seeking nothing more than to take humanitarian aid to Gaza. Excuse me if I was a little cynical when I first heard the news, for despite days of a highly orchestrated media campaign to vilify Israel and her defence forces, the truth subsequently came out. These were not peace activists; they were agents of provocation, radicals seeking a violent confrontation as they broke the legal maritime blockade of Gaza. I did not realise that peace activists were so well armed, in this case, with knives, chains, firearms, molotov cocktails and pepper spray. By viciously attacking the soldiers, they quickly betrayed their true agenda with their anti-Semitic cries, as they did by their refusal to cooperate with the UN, Israeli or Egyptian authorities, who could have facilitated the entry of the humanitarian materials to Gaza. This was no peace flotilla; it was part of an orchestrated campaign to vilify the state of Israel for doing nothing more than would be expected of us in this place: to protect her own citizens.

The blockade of Gaza is well founded in law, but it is also well founded in the entirely legitimate need for a state and government to take reasonable action to protect its citizens—for Gaza under Hamas cannot be treated as if it or they were a reasonable neighbour, and in no way can it be considered a partner for peace. This blockade has been undertaken to prevent terrorist at- tacks on Israeli civilians, no matter their race or creed. For some reason, certain people, NGO’s and so called human rights organisations expect Israel to tolerate a much higher level of violence than in Manhattan, Melbourne or Manchester.

To those who do not understand what Hamas does to the innocent civilians of Israel, I urge you to go to Sderot. Look at the remains of the rockets that have been fired from Gaza into that neighbourhood by Hamas—intentionally fired from amongst civilians in Gaza so as to make detection and prevention more difficult. Visit the children’s playgrounds in Sderot that are made from reinforced concrete. Bomb shelters are painted as coloured snakes in lieu of a playground, as children need to be within seconds of safety as the sirens blare ‘code red’ as another rocket is launched. Speak to the mothers of the children to whom the word ‘red’ provokes fear because of these sirens and amongst whom mental illness—particularly anxiety, stress and depression-related disorders—are at un- precedented levels. Go and look at the schools which have concrete slabs above their roofs in an attempt to limit the carnage caused by terrorists firing rockets from only a kilometre away, to whom a school is noth- ing more than a target. This is the situation for Israeli towns along the border with Gaza.

And why is it that we do not hear of the brutal rule of Hamas and what its clear and stated agenda is? It cannot be through innocence; it can only be through ignorance. Hamas does not seek to hide its agenda, at least on its home turf. The truth is that Israel had allowed elections in Gaza. The corrupt Palestinian Authority lost to the terrorist organisation Hamas. The electoral attitude of Hamas can be best summed up as ‘One man, one vote, once,’ for elections are not regular. And pity those who might attempt to compete with them anyway, as thuggery and violence rule, rather than the ballot box.

Despite a lack of coverage of the reality of Hamas, we should be in no doubt as to what it is. It is a terrorist organisation, dedicated to the use of violence against innocent civilians to achieve its objective. In this case its objective is nothing less than the elimination of the Jewish state and of Jews in their homeland. Across Israel, Hamas has killed thousands, Jewish and Muslim alike. Shrapnel from terrorists does not discriminate. For this reason, Israel blockades the rogue state that is Gaza—but so does Egypt. Contrary to the perception created by some reports, this blockade does not pro- hibit the entry of food and medicines. It merely ensures that the materials going into Gaza are not diverted into the tools of violence and terror.

So what was the real agenda of this alleged peace flotilla? It was part of the campaign to delegitimise Israel in the West. It was intentionally aimed at weak- ening the historic friendship between many nations of the West and the only liberal democratic state in the Middle East. Over the past decade, a campaign of vili- fication against Israel has been undertaken by elements of the left in the West. Using NGOs, an occasionally ignorant media and a lack of understanding in the West of the existential threat faced by Israel, they have joined with other groups, including violent Islamic groups in the Middle East who seek to destroy Israel. The incidence of academic boycotts and the use of terms such as ‘apartheid’ are all an attempt to achieve through factual manipulation what the enemies of Is- rael have not been able to achieve through other means. It could not be achieved by three wars and it could not be achieved by an unprecedented terror campaign against civilians, so now these organisations seek to weaken Israel by demonising and delegitimising it, weakening its alliance with other nations to diplomatically cripple and hopefully destroy it. This was merely the latest media stunt in that campaign.

For those who doubt the intensity of the hatred of Is- rael and its people, have a look at what is on some of the television stations in its neighbourhood. I have seen a dramatic serialisation of that historic slur The Protocols of the Elders of Zion being broadcast on television as if it were a mini-series we would see on our own TV screens, and the portrayal of a Disney-like children’s character being killed by Jews on a children’s program. And, of course, there is the constant denial of the reality of the Holocaust.

These are just some of the examples of horrific anti- Semitism fed to millions of people via their TV screens, endorsed or tolerated by Israel’s Arab neighbour states. And while Hamas is of immediate interest with its control of Gaza, it is far from the only offender in creating and furthering racial hatred. The Palestinian Authority has maps on its walls that do not recognise the state of Israel. I have seen them. The schoolbooks the Palestinian Authority distributes to schools contain no reference to Israel or the three wars that were started against it. They have even named and funded a soccer tournament after a prominent suicide bomber. Israel and its citizens, including Muslim Arabs, do not live in the same world we do; they live in a world where their neighbours seek their violent destruction. No government is perfect. No state is perfect. But that does not mean one abandons those simply in need of security. In this case, it is the people of Israel who have that need—the need for no more than what we expect in Australia.

A group called ‘Australians for Palestine’ has been running a campaign entitled ‘Time to hold Israel Accountable’. Israel is accountable to its people via elections, courts and the rule of law, while Hamas, the Palestinian Authority and Israel’s other neighbours are not. Israel has a right to protect itself, and the campaign to undermine this must be opposed. More importantly, it must be exposed. The lies and misrepresentation of facts and the application of double standards in considering Israel’s legitimate right of self-defence cannot go unanswered.
 

Patricia B. (4)
Thursday June 17, 2010, 5:16 am
I am sorry this posted twice. My error and NOT intentional..
 

Locan Sleeping-Squirrel (209)
Thursday June 17, 2010, 5:28 am
Attacking a craft 80 miles offshore in international waters is not self defense. Slaughtering unarmed civilians, again, is not self defense.

Please tell me, what courts and what rule of law has Israel been accountable to besides their own?
 

Cheryl Benson (390)
Thursday June 17, 2010, 9:28 am
not that Di B attempt is really worth responding to, it only shows desperation in the face of proven facts against the post and claims repeatedly for some time now, and some inbreed sense that they are better than everyone else which is very typical of israeli government and zionism and defending the indefensible - tiresome

From Jewish voices for Peace

Silencing Gaza flotilla activists in the United States
Posted on June 10 2010 by Cecilie Surasky under Gaza , IDF.

The Israeli government, with the aid of its many proxies- especially in the Jewish institutional world, is working overtime after the Mavi Mavera massacre to paint the Gaza flotilla participants as terrorists.

Apparently–jamming satellite communications, absconding with tens of thousands of dollars of equipment, confiscating every photo and video they could find, and releasing pathetically doctored “evidence” (thank you Ali Abunimah and Max Blumenthal and others) is not enough. Now groups are working to keep flotilla human rights activists out of the country.

Here’s the stunning petition the NY Jewish Community Relations Council has put together to keep activists out. Mondoweiss has audio of retired US Colonel Ann Wright, who was just in NYC, speaking about what happened. She must be the person they’re trying to keep out of the country. Good luck with that. So much for America-first.

JCRC motto:Meeting challenges indeed. Meanwhile, Iara Lee has even more footage that she and her cameraman were able to sneak off the boat. Unlike the IDF, she has the courage to let you see it unedited and raw. -

there are a few embedded links with this I am not physically able to do, so check out the original
http://www.muzzlewatch.com/2010/06/10/silencing-gaza-flotilla-activists-in-the-united-states/

AND WHILE YOUR AT IT, DO READ JELICA'S POST OF Sunday June 13, 2010, 10:11 pm, click on the embedded links that support the submission,. you are posting more zionist jewish lobby propaganda which unforgivably most governments support.

What is so very sad is defending the indefensible , not all Israelis or Jew's do, this was a planned attack ahead of time by the IDF, they knew who was on board, were they were, and the journalists ,videos' and went for them first to make an example to the rest or any more coming after, and be sure there will be the international community is even more determined now. Israel is finally pissing off some countries enough like Ireland, turkey and yes Iran , saying it has neulocar capabilities when israel has the largest nuke capabilties in the mid-east that go unchecked and which is allowed by the usa and UN

as for homemade bomb;s and etc, already debunked check my submissions, and above, what was fake and did get out was the fake remake footage the IDF made of supposedly boarding the Mavi, which was quickly torn apart, just as some of the radio records the IDF said they got were proven false as well, also noted above

this is tiresome, read the posts above you to be sure to click n the links will you
 

Cheryl Benson (390)
Thursday June 17, 2010, 11:42 am
Over the past two weeks, survivor stories have begun to come out as passengers come home and talk to the media. Some of the stories are heartbreaking, some are stories of hope, all are stories that completely tarnish Israel's spin on what happened.

Here is just one of them that came out today.

Poignant story by Kevin Neish about being kidnapped on board the Marmara

http://www.counterpunch.com/lindorff06162010.html

For more survivor stories, go to http://www.freegaza.org/en/testimonies-from-israeli-jail/1221-in-their-own-words-survivor-testimonies-from-flotilla-31-may-2010

and be sure to check our videos at www.witnessgaza.com


--
Greta Berlin, Co-Founder
witnessgaza.com
www.freegaza.org
http://www.flickr.com/photos/freegaza
 

Pete M. (67)
Friday June 18, 2010, 11:38 pm
Thanks Cheryl!

The Arab-Israeli Conflict: Too Complicated For Our Beautiful Minds

''...Despite the endless propaganda we are subjected to, about Palestinians (and Arabs and Muslims) being people who are “not like us”, whose values are inimical to our own, and with whom we are condemned to be engaged in an endless clash of civilizations, the conflict in Palestine is actually rooted in the fact that Palestinians are exactly like us.

Palestinians do not accept that equal citizenship in their own homeland should be denied them because of their ethnic/religious background, any more than Americans would accept ethnic justifications for denying them equal citizenship in the United States.

Palestinians do not accept that a population that is 96.7% Muslim and Christian should be ethnically cleansed to make way for a sectarian Jewish state, any more than we would accept that the 97.5% of Americans who happen to be not-Jewish should be ethnically cleansed to make way for a Jewish state here. In short, Palestinians reject and resist Zionism because they do not accept being treated in ways that we, likewise, would never accept for ourselves.

This is not difficult to understand.

And yet we wrap the Arab-Israeli conflict in complex, ontological constructs about “The Arab Mind”, about “Islamofascists” who “hate us for our freedoms”, and about mindless, irrational anti-Semites who hate Israel just because it’s Jewish and not because the overwhelmingly non-Jewish population there has to be destroyed in order to make it, and keep it, Jewish.

Complicated existential explanations to hide the simple fact that the Palestinians are doing exactly what we would be doing if we found ourselves in their situation.

I understand that if you’re a Zionist you have a vested interest in not understanding all this, and in persuading others that it’s really very complicated. But for the rest of us, really, how difficult is this to grasp?

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2008/12/what-if.html
 

Dawn W. (2)
Saturday June 19, 2010, 9:18 am
"And yet we wrap the Arab-Israeli conflict in complex, ontological constructs about “The Arab Mind”, about “Islamofascists” who “hate us for our freedoms”, and about mindless, irrational anti-Semites who hate Israel just because it’s Jewish and not because the overwhelmingly non-Jewish population there has to be destroyed in order to make it, and keep it, Jewish. "

Are you kidding? You don't think the Palestinians would do the same in a heartbeat (purge non-Palestinians) given the opportunity! What do you think this fight is all about?

Are you sure that you yourself are not just a naive freedom fighter welcomed by Palestinian propagandists to spread a biased opinion of something you know virtually nothing about except what you hear and see from the media?

Why doesn't Israel engage in these same kinds of propagandist media manipulation?

I'm not saying all Palestinians are wrong but are you sure that you have a good handle on a war that's as old as time?

 

Locan Sleeping-Squirrel (209)
Saturday June 19, 2010, 10:20 am
Dawn W. (0)
Saturday June 19, 2010, 9:18 am
Why doesn't Israel engage in these same kinds of propagandist media manipulation?

You're kidding, right?
 

Pete M. (67)
Saturday June 19, 2010, 11:27 am
Most probably not, which is kinda disturbing.... ;-)
 

Pete M. (67)
Saturday June 19, 2010, 12:12 pm
What d'ya call someone who spreads 'Hasbara?

Hasbaragus- cos only a brain-dead vegetable could believe it. ;-)
 

Pete M. (67)
Saturday June 19, 2010, 12:14 pm
(& they look like d**ks)
 

Dawn W. (2)
Saturday June 19, 2010, 8:13 pm
That's all you got - insults!! Somehow it fits the profile.
 

Pete M. (67)
Sunday June 20, 2010, 5:16 am
Dawn; ''Are you kidding? You don't think the Palestinians would do the same in a heartbeat (purge non-Palestinians) given the opportunity! What do you think this fight is all about? ''

That's got to be the closest to an admission I've read yet from a 'Hasbaragus' that Israel is a racist state that can only exist by oppressing the non-Jewish indiginous majority population, (tho it's more a lack of denial -they'd do it so the Jews have to - than an admission).

Thanks for that, tho I don't think that's the intended purpose of Hasbara. ;-)

Once that fact has seeped its way past the years of GIYUS horse poo that you no doubt consume on a daily basis & into your brain, you might finally 'get it' that the Palestinians are simply doing what you or I or anyone else would be doing in their position- ie fighting injustice , racism & occupation.

That is what the 'fight is all about', and the Palestinians have right on their side.

''Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. …Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home. The nobler course would be to insist on a just treatment of the Jews wherever they are born and bred.

… I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regarded as an unwarrantable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds.

-- The Jews In Palestine, by Mahatma Gandhi; The Harijan, 26 Nov 1938.
 

Dawn W. (2)
Sunday June 20, 2010, 7:00 am
Only a child resorts to insults.

Unless you're a Jew or an Arab living there, and open to considering 'both' sides, you will, at the very least have a flawed idea about what's 'really' happening. We read, see or hear stories and we make judgements based on 'one-sided' information.

The very best 'we' can do for this situation is to encouarge peace talks. Your words seem filled with discord and anger, in which case you are a part of the problem.
 

Locan Sleeping-Squirrel (209)
Sunday June 20, 2010, 1:21 pm
"I'm not saying all Palestinians are wrong but are you sure that you have a good handle on a war that's as old as time?"

That statement in itself shows your lack of perspective of reality. The present conflict is "only" a few decades old. If you take it back any further than that, it's clear your sources are questionable as are your motives.

"We read, see or hear stories and we make judgements based on 'one-sided' information."

Human Rights Watch, B'tselem, Amnesty International, are these organizations one-sided to you?
 

Dawn W. (2)
Monday June 21, 2010, 7:48 am
We're not talking about humanitarian aid, we're talking about WAR and the atrocities 'it' creates.

Atrociities have been committed by 'both' sides, although I believe by virtue of Israel's size (the Arab nations around it are 640 times its size and often hostile towards this tiny democratic nation), Israel has had to work that much harder just to survive.

Aside from humanitarian aid the very best 'we', as unqualified observers, can do is not further encourage hatred and suspicion but rather peace talks.

We are all part of a collective whole, our passion is misplaced if our words further fuels the hatred and mistrust.
 

Pete M. (67)
Monday June 21, 2010, 1:46 pm
We are meant to be talking about the vids and fotos of the Israeli attack, murder and kidnapping of the activists on the humanitarian aid convoy that the Israelis didn't want us to see.

Dawn; Re ''....can do is not further encourage hatred and suspicion but rather peace talks.''

So what action have you taken recently in opposing the building of illegal settlements in Al Aqsa and the West Bank, which of course are one of the major obstacles to peace and betray Israels true intentions regarding the 2 state solution?

Do you as a supporter of Israel really believe that atrocities committed by Israel such as the Sabra & Shatila genocide, Lebanon invasions , Operation 'Vast Dead', murdering Palestinian leaders, their families & innocent bystanders by dropping one ton bombs in residential areas, murdering Hamas members in hotel rooms using 'allies' passports & the latest Freedom Flotilla massacre to name but a few, have the effect of improving Israels (or the rest of ours) security?

Isn't defending these atrocities as you and the other 'Hasbaragus' on this thread & elsewhere have done not 'further encouraging hatred and suspicion' of Israel?

If you genuinely want peace then you would of course be condemning these outrages & crimes against humanity, rather than trying to justify them.

If not then you are undeniably ''a part of the problem.''

Re; ''Are you sure that you yourself are not just a naive freedom fighter welcomed by Palestinian propagandists to spread a biased opinion of something you know virtually nothing about except what you hear and see from the media?''

I am admittedly biased against states that determine citizenship by race or ethnicity, such as Israel .

More so when they and their supporters continually try to play the victim card, or accuse hypocritically Israels critics of being 'anti semetic'.

I know several Israelis and people close to me have visited Israel & Gaza several times , I am a member of AI and was a member of Jewish Voice for Peace (paid a membership fee/donation last year which may have lapsed now) , I'm on Jewish Peace News mailing list along with others and have read many books on the history of the I/P conflict.

So I have formed an opinion - Israel is a racist state whose very existence is a breach of international law & can only define itself as a 'democracy' due to the fact that it has ethnically cleansed about a million non -Jews & refused them the right to return. It was imposed on the majority indigenous population against their will & without a referendum so was in direct contravention of the UN Charter which states-

''WE THE PEOPLES OF THE UNITED NATIONS DETERMINED

to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind, and
to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person,** in the equal rights of men and women** and of nations large and small''

It has about as much 'right to exist' as a 'Jewish state' in Palestine as f.i Apartheid S Africa or Rhodesia (ie none at all) and the sooner it 'disappears from the map of time' like the aforementioned regimes the better for all of us. I was going to add Nazi Germany, but the way they 'disappeared from the map of time' was the hard way, which I wouldn't want to see repeated.
Ideally the Israelis themselves would rise up & overthrow their corrupt & racist leadership, but failing that I believe it is way past time for talking about regime change in Israel.

NATO has a perfect opportunity to show it still has a useful post cold war purpose by ordering the Israelis to hand over those responsible for attacking a NATO allies ship on the high seas & murdering & kidnapping its citizens, otherwise the illegal Jewish settlements on the West Bank get a taste of some 'shock & awe' (you couldn't possibly object if the inhabitants were given say 24 hrs advance notice which is around 23 hrs more than the IDF give to Non-Jewish families before the bulldozers demolish their homes) and install a govt with a constitution that guarantees equal rights for all Israels citizens.

I support the two-state solution as a first step towards the only sustainable long term future Israel has-the one state solution with equal rights for all its citizens.

I guess you're a 'Hasbaragus' when you found my joke insulting, tho the biggest insults I find on these threads are the insults to our intelligence that Israels apologists try to post as 'facts'. ;-)
 

Pete M. (67)
Monday June 21, 2010, 2:01 pm
Dawn w; Have you ever read any of Norman Finkelstein or Noam Chomskys books?
Chomskys Rogue States, Hegemony or Survival and Finkelsteins Beyond Chutzpah are excellent.
 

Dawn W. (2)
Monday June 21, 2010, 2:32 pm
Pete M. - Funny - you 'never' make negative comments about Palestinians yet you are 'always' slamming Israelis! You sound very angry when you write and anything but unbiased.

As for reading Finkelstein (isn't he Jewish and living in Israel?) or Chomsky - I'll look them up but if they're difficult to reason with like yourself (you almost sound like you have a personal vendetta) then I won't be impressed.
 

Dave C. (867)
Monday June 21, 2010, 4:02 pm
Dawn W.

Monday June 21, 2010, 2:32 pm

"As for reading Finkelstein (isn't he Jewish and living in Israel?) or Chomsky - I'll look them up but if they're difficult to reason with like yourself. . ."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Obviously to this lady - along with P & E - ignorance is utter bliss. Leave them to wallow in it Pete, and maybe concentrate your high intellect in engaging in a dialog with those individuals on Care2 with a brain slightly bigger than a frozen pea. If you enjoy bashing your head up against a brick wall then carry on, but I wouldn't give them the time of day.
 

Cheryl Benson (390)
Monday June 21, 2010, 4:37 pm
Oy vey
 

Pete M. (67)
Tuesday June 22, 2010, 1:45 am
Soz guys, after getting the half acknowledgment that Israel is a racist state I thought we had at least a slightly less ignorant 'Hasbaragus' , guess they just dumb instead... ;-)
 

Dawn W. (2)
Tuesday June 22, 2010, 6:13 am
Dace C. - Insulting people is the childish way to handle a grown up problem. If you want to encourage people to think another way; you're going to have to get a lot more creative. As it is, all you do is reveal to myself and others two things: you've got an uncontrollable temper and you completely lack diplomacy and good manners.

Granted this topic makes people passionate but you need to use your anger more constructively.

I would tend to listen more to yourself and Pete if you were less biased. I get the distinct sense that you are both anti-Israeli. Perhaps you have good reason for it!

However, you can't tell me that Israel has committed 'more' atrocities than Palestinians because in sheer numbers (and support from surrounding Arab nations), Arabs outnumber Israeli's something like 10-1 (actually I have good reason to suspect it's probably far greater). Logistics tell me that when you have ten people against one - the odds are stacked in favour of the ten and yet Israel is always portrayed in the media as the monster.

This is the point I'm trying to understand.
 

Jerry C. (16)
Tuesday June 22, 2010, 6:56 am
Way to hang in there, Dawn!!

Hey Pete! It seems like maybe you have some good points, but that whole asparagus fixation makes it impossible for me to hear you.
 

Cheryl Benson (390)
Tuesday June 22, 2010, 7:01 am
@Dawn, spend some time, and I do mean lots of time at these links

If Americans Knew - what every American needs to know about Israel ...
.. If Americans Knew is dedicated to providing Americans with everything they need to know about Israel and Palestine.
www.ifamericansknew.org/ - (they have graphs)

This is an Israeli Human Rights Watch -

http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp

http://www.btselem.org/English/Beating_and_Abuse/


http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/Index.asp


http://www.palestineremembered.com/ (very important site and the REAL one - the zionists have made one with a similar name that doesn't tell the truth, some truth with zionist hasbara - the israel and jewish lobbies or supporters of their illegal actions do this a lot on the internet, and in the world, or they try, unfortunately many don't know the difference )


http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/

http://gazafreedommarch.ort

http://bdsmovement.net

news you don't see in msm, very rare what is being done to the Palestinians or alot of it in B'Tselem for that matter - also very important, subscribe to them for 1 or 2 weeks

http://www.theheadlines.org/06/16-07-06.shtml

www.endtheoccupation.org/


www.palestineblogs.org/

palestineblogs.net/

www.maannews.net

www.palestinecampaign.org/

www.muzzlewatch.com/

that's a start.

 

Cheryl Benson (390)
Tuesday June 22, 2010, 7:04 am
and yes israel has committed and continues to commit more atrocities, with a lot of US funding, billions, just do some reading, even the Israeli sites show that israel has committed grossly more
 

Jerry C. (16)
Tuesday June 22, 2010, 7:07 am
Hey, Cheryl. As always, you remain committed.We disagree, but I have to respect your focus!
 

Dawn W. (2)
Tuesday June 22, 2010, 7:09 am
Cheryl - Are you saying that Palestinians don't receive 'outside' help?
 

Dave C. (867)
Tuesday June 22, 2010, 7:55 am
Dawn W. (0)
Tuesday June 22, 2010, 6:13 am
"I get the distinct sense that you are. . . anti-Israeli."

Hilarious -
What finally convinced you of that?!!

^^^^^^^^^^^^

"Are you saying that Palestinians don't receive 'outside' help?"

They get roughly $3Billion a year less than 'Israel' gets handed on a plate from the USA.
 

Dave C. (867)
Tuesday June 22, 2010, 9:14 am
Israeli World Records

I can spot someone a mile off who has a genuine thirst for knowledge Dawn -

You can print this out and put it up on your wall:

• Israel was established upon the ruins of another nation that it destroyed; Palestine
• Israel hold the world record in the number of towns & villages it ethnically cleansed...500+
• Israel holds the world record in the number of refugees it deported...4 million +
• Israel holds the world record in the number of homes it demolished...60 thousand +
• Israel is the country with the highest record of UN condemnation...500+ times
• Israel is the country with the highest number of protective US Security council vetoes...100+ times
• Israel has killed more innocent civilians per capita than any other country...50 thousand+
• Israel has imprisoned more civilians per capita than any other country...250 thousand+
• Israel has rendered more innocent civilians handicapped per capita than any other country...50 thousand+
• Israel has injured more innocent civilians per capita than any other country...200 thousand+
• Israel has only two countries to defend its policies in the United Nations. These countries are America & Micronesia. The population for Micronesia as of June 2008 is only 108,000
• Israel is the only country on Earth that denies the right of return of refugees
• Israel is the only country on Earth that still occupies a whole other country & parts of two other countries
• Israel is the only country on Earth that publicly, steals the water of its neighbors
• Israel is the only country on Earth that has legalized home demolishing as a method of collective punishment
• Israel is the only country on Earth that uproots trees as a method of collective punishment
• Israel is the only country on Earth that deliberately targets civilian infrastructure and justifies it
• Israel is the only country on Earth that legalized assassination
• Israel stands unique in using human shields in military operations
• Amongst all countries, Israel is the only one that has legalized torture
• Israel is the only country on Earth that builds illegal settlements in occupied lands
• Israel is the only country on Earth that publicly jails activists without trial
• According to the Guinness Book of World Records, Israel has created the highest number of checkpoints
• According to the Guinness Book of World Records, Israel holds the world record in the number of curfew it has installed on the Palestinians
• Israel is the only country on Earth whose checkpoints deny women access to hospitals, they give birth alone and babies usually die
• Israel is exceptional in being the only country on Earth whose checkpoints denies patients access to hospitals, and they end up dying
• Israel is the only country on Earth whose checkpoints are where wedding parades come to an end
• Israel is the only country on Earth who check points schoolchildren, denies them access to school, and puts an end to their classes
• Israel is one of two countries that, against International Law, use cluster bombs and depleted uranium bombs. America is the other...what a surprise huh?
• Israel holds the world record in the number of soldiers refusing to serve in the army
• Israel despite being a rich country, receives the highest financial aid, more than the sum aid to all sub-Saharan Africa!
• Israel claims its enemies want to wipe it off the map, but it has indeed wiped a whole country called Palestine off the map!
• Israel is the country that has introduced nuclear weapons into the Middle East. But the only country in the Middle East that refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty
• After East Germany, Israel is the only country that is building a segregation wall
• Second to South Africa, Israel is the only country to establish an apartheid regime
• Israeli engineers developed the worlds' first iron gates on roads
• Israeli engineers developed the worlds' first cities turned into jails with gates and opening hours
• Israeli engineers developed the worlds' first apartheid walls
• Israeli engineers developed the worlds' first electrified segregation fences
• Israeli engineers developed the worlds' first 'eyes specific' rubber bullets
• Israeli engineers developed the worlds' first abortion efficient, infant killing tear gas
• Israeli engineers developed the worlds' first humiliation guaranteed human cages
• Israel is the only country on Earth that has a political party that publicly advocates ethnic cleansing of native citizens (Palestinians)
• Israel is the only country on Earth that still has racist laws that discriminate against native citizens (Palestinians)
• Israel is the only country on Earth known to have a memorial dedicated to a terrorist where his followers gather and dance
• Israel is the only country on Earth that imprisons kids for political reasons
• No other country on Earth has towns and cities allocated exclusively for one ethnic group
• The only country on Earth, where people live in homes stolen from living refugees is, Israel
• The only place on Earth where people cultivate fields stolen from living refugees is, Israel
• Israel has the highest number of towns built upon ethnically cleansed villages, whose former residents are living refugees
• Israel ranks amongst the top countries in lack of security

 

Jerry C. (16)
Tuesday June 22, 2010, 10:08 am
A possible source of Dave C's list:

http://arabnews.com/middleeast/article67337.ece?service=print
By UPROOTEDPALESTINIANS.BLOGSPOT

Hey Cheryl, weren't you the one who had a problem with people just quoting "hasbara" that they lifted from other sites? Any comments?
 

Pete M. (67)
Tuesday June 22, 2010, 10:13 am
Thanks Dave, I'm gonna re post that in BC so I've got it handy.
 

Pete M. (67)
Tuesday June 22, 2010, 10:58 am
Jerry-''but that whole asparagus fixation makes it impossible for me to hear you. ''

Asparagus; (Noun)- plant whose succulent young shoots are cooked and eaten as a vegetable.It is also believed to have aphrodisiac properties, owing to its phallic shape.Ingestion of asparagus may bring on an attack of gout in certain individuals due to the high level of purines.

Hasbaragus;(Noun)-No brain vegetable who spreads Hasbara , ingestion of which may bring on an attack of gout in certain individuals due to the high level of horsep*o. Also resembles a phallus, but not believed to have any aphrodisiac properties.
 

Jerry C. (16)
Tuesday June 22, 2010, 11:18 am
Exactly my point. Asparagus fixation - signifies an inability to present an argument on its own merit, requiring the sufferer to resort personal invective.

If you had something worth saying, you wouldn't need to attempt to be insulting.
 

Dave C. (867)
Tuesday June 22, 2010, 4:22 pm
Onion sauce!!
 

Pete M. (67)
Tuesday June 22, 2010, 4:29 pm
;-)
 

Dawn W. (2)
Wednesday June 23, 2010, 7:25 am
Dave C. - First of all, I asked Cheryl the question about Palestinian support from outside - not you.

I have noticed that when you can't answer a question you start insulting people - its a bully tactic and a way to dodge a question. You almost sound (to me) like someone who has been indoctrinated!

I know Israel doesn't wear a shiny badge but perhaps you're familiar with their 'Never Again' slogan!

And you still haven't answered my most fundamental question: Israel is outnumbered 10-1 (conservative figures). When you tell me that their atrocities are so much worse than the Palestianians I look at the 'numbers' but they don't add up. Therefore, I must deduce that in order to survive they must be ten times more intelligent, ten times better organized and fight ten times harder than their adversaries.

And, if they didn't receive 'outside' help - they would have ceased to exist by now. The laws of survival dictact that when people are backed against a wall they will fight that much harder and be that much meaner - it's survival of the 'fittest'.
 

Dave C. (867)
Wednesday June 23, 2010, 7:42 am
I'm afraid it is a dilemma that only you can deal with, that you regard facts posted for your benefit about 'Israeli' as 'insulting' to yourself. . .
 
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