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Abbas: 'Not a Single Israeli' in Future Palestinian State

World  (tags: middle-east, israel, palestine, Abbas )

- 1841 days ago -
"In a final resolution, we would not see the presence of a single Israeli - civilian or soldier - on our lands," Abbas said in a briefing to mostly Egyptian journalists.

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Alexa R (319)
Tuesday July 30, 2013, 11:00 am
By REUTERS CAIRO - Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas laid out his vision on Monday for the final status of Israeli-Palestinian relations ahead of peace talks due to resume in Washington for the first time in nearly three years.

Abbas said that no Israeli settlers or border forces could remain in a future Palestinian state and that Palestinians deem illegal all Jewish settlement building within the land occupied in the 1967 Six Days War.

Palestinian, Israeli officials clash over format of Washington peace talks
Abbas meets with Egyptian interim gov't leaders in Cairo
The forceful statements appeared to challenge mediator US Secretary of State John Kerry's hopes that the terms of the talks, scheduled to begin Monday night over dinner, be kept secret.

"In a final resolution, we would not see the presence of a single Israeli - civilian or soldier - on our lands," Abbas said in a briefing to mostly Egyptian journalists.

"An international, multinational presence like in Sinai, Lebanon and Syria - we are with that," he said, referring to United Nations peacekeeping operations in those places.

He was in Cairo to meet with Egypt's interim president Adli Mansour nearly a month after the country's armed forces ousted his elected predecessor, Mohamed Morsi. He also discussed with senior Egyptian intelligence figures relations between the two governments and the easing of movement of goods and people between Egypt and the Gaza Strip.

Israel has previously said it wants to maintain a military presence in the West Bank at the border with Jordan to prevent any influx of weapons that could be used against it.

But Abbas said he stood by understandings he said he reached with former prime minister Ehud Olmert, predecessor to more right-wing leader Binyamin Netanyahu, that NATO forces could deploy there "as a security guarantee to us and them."

The United States is seeking to broker an agreement on a two-state solution in which Israel would exist peacefully alongside a new Palestinian state created in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

The talks will be conducted by senior aides to Netanyahu - Justice Minister Tzipi Livni and Yitzhak Molcho - and to Abbas - represented by Saeb Erekat and Mohammed Ishtyeh.

On the future of Jewish settlements on the West Bank and the status of Jerusalem - among the most contentious issues facing the two sides - Abbas signaled no softening of his stance.

"We've already made all the necessary concessions," he said.

"East Jerusalem is the capital of the state of Palestine ... if there were and must be some kind of small exchange (of land) equal in size and value, we are ready to discuss this - no more, no less," he said.

Terms of reference

Before agreeing to return to talks last week, Palestinian officials were adamant that negotiations should have three main prerequisites: the release of veteran Arab prisoners in Israeli jails, a full settlement freeze and an acknowledgment of the 1967 lines as the basis for future borders.

Israel has publicly granted only one of those demands when its cabinet on Sunday voted to approved the phased release of 104 Arab prisoners.

Abbas said on Monday that he refused to endorse any half-measure whereby he would let Israel freeze construction in smaller, more far-flung settlements but allow it to build in the larger and more populous "blocs" closer to the 1967 lines.

"There was a request, 'We'll only build here, what do you think?' If I agreed, I would legitimize all the rest (of the settlements). I said no. I said out loud and in writing that, to us, settlements in their entirety are illegitimate."

Asked if the Americans may try to get Israel to agree to a de facto settlement freeze, the president made a broad smile and declined to answer: "I don't know."

Palestinian sources say officials remain uncomfortable with the lack of a firm Israeli commitment, publicly or behind closed doors, to meet their remaining expectations.

They say that in talks in the coming days, the Americans hope to satisfy Palestinian objections by issuing a statement declaring the 1967 lines the basis for negotiations, and the United States will attempt to compel the Israelis to endorse their note.

Israeli officials have in public repeatedly refused to accede to the Palestinian demands, calling them preconditions on issues that must be agreed at the end, not the start, of talks.

Senior aide to the president Tayyeb Abdul Rahim, accompanying Abbas, told Reuters, "We're between two opinions: should Israel agree to stop building settlements, or should they agree to a state on the 1967 borders to go back to talks.

"What's stronger? (The second) means that all settlements are illegitimate. America is convinced of our point of view ... Israel has not yet agreed to a state on the 1967 lines, but it will go to the talks on that basis."

Gillian M (218)
Tuesday July 30, 2013, 11:42 am
This is already in operation in Gaza. An Israeli court ruled that no Jew could keep the land that they had bought in Gaza. They are in the process of driving out Arab Christians.

Abbas also wants the right of return to Israel for any Palestinian 4 generations later who are citizens of another country or who are abused in the other Muslim controlled countries in the Middle East who do not have such rights. Arafat was the same, no Jews into a country to which they have no legal or moral rights but dump as many as possible into Israel.

For readers who don't know, 20% of the population of Israel is made up of Palestinians who have exactly the same rights as any other Israeli. Now, why don't they call themselves Israeli and not Palestinian?

Fred H (31)
Tuesday July 30, 2013, 11:43 am
Well, I guess they won't be accused of apartheid since they will ethnically cleanse their country of Jews first.

Helen Porter (39)
Tuesday July 30, 2013, 1:26 pm
My heart goes out to Israel. I really believe PM Netanyahu has and is doing all he can. But what can he do? that he hasn't already tried?

My prayers are with Israel as with America.

Stephen Brian (23)
Tuesday July 30, 2013, 2:17 pm
This is another independent reason why the peace talks will fail. If foreign presence runs only one way, there is no threat of reciprocity to hold irridentism in check. Even if a deal is reached and a Palestinian state is built, Palestinian irridentism in Israel would drive Israel to retake control of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. For peace to hold, the settlements must remain in a Palestinian state, with Israel threatening retaliation on their behalf in case of persecution.

Alexa R (319)
Tuesday July 30, 2013, 2:26 pm
Stephen Brian (24)
Tuesday July 30, 2013, 2:17 pm
This is another independent reason why the peace talks will fail. If foreign presence runs only one way, there is no threat of reciprocity to hold irridentism in check.
. For peace to hold, the settlements must remain in a Palestinian state, with Israel threatening retaliation on their behalf in case of persecution.

I absolutely agree Stephen! I pray Netanyahu will insist on there being no such thing as a Judenfrei Palestine - it is racist/antisemitic to the extreme. I hope that the mistake made( in Gaza and some parts of Judea and Samaria (West Bank) when Jewish families that have lived in those areas for over 3000 years were evacuated in 2005 as part of the previous peace accords) will not be repeated this time round.


Jennifer Ward (40)
Tuesday July 30, 2013, 2:32 pm
Religion and race aside- the Islamic run countries are maelstroms of destruction and violence. They can't even work together to build a productive and safe society for themselves, and seem to live and die in a state of perpetual tribal warfare, only ameliorated by buckets of foreign cash to feed their out of control populations and fuelled by armaments from foreign powers. What is this BDS rubbish and worldwide conflict over a sliver of land (in some places only 9 miles wide) on behalf of a miniscule number of Arabs who live off the UN and ignore the 70% of the area (it never was a country) known as Palestine that was annexed/ gifted to Syria and Jordon (both constructs of foreign powers themselves)? So over the grievance industry that has become a great money spinner for the genetically and permanently dissatisfied.

pam w (139)
Tuesday July 30, 2013, 2:47 pm
""East Jerusalem is the capital of the state of Palestine"

++++++++++++ Can anyone tell me what that actually means?

Alexander Werner (53)
Tuesday July 30, 2013, 2:56 pm
That Abbas made quite a racist comment.

Chad Anderson (191)
Tuesday July 30, 2013, 6:42 pm
That is not very helpful but may accurately represent that attitude of the Palestinians toward the West Bank settlers. This makes it very clear that any final settlement be very carefully constructed to overcome these problems. The "solution" of expelling Jews from the Sinai or from Gaza is not satisfactory, even if it is done by the Israeli army. Other provision should be made to trade land, guarantee equal status of Jews in Palestine, or provide incentives for settlers to move within whatever are the final borders of Israel. All-in-all, it just highlights how far Israel still has to go before it can count on peaceful borders.

Stan B (123)
Tuesday July 30, 2013, 8:48 pm
Does anyone seriously believe that by releasing 104 Palestinian terrorists and murderers Israel is going to have peace and security with the Palestinians? That Israel is going to be recognised and accepted by her Arab neighbours?
Abbas should be congratulated for at least telling the truth. The reality is that there is very little chance for a two state solution because only one side is genuinely interested in peace.
Thanks Alexa.

Lily T. (8)
Tuesday July 30, 2013, 9:46 pm
"PA president says would agree to international presence in the West Bank, but not toe Israeli settlers, security forces."

As from the article and EVERY ARTICLE WRITTEN it refers settlers and the Israeli military. To turn this into ethnic cleansing of the Jewish people is dishonest. What would you people do if you didn't have the conflict to justify your continual posts of misinformation?

Tommy S (11)
Tuesday July 30, 2013, 10:47 pm
I wonder what a proportionate response would be to abbas statements
Should all arabs be thrown out of the Jewish homeland "palestine" as they call it
Do unto others as they would do to you--- but do it first

Alexa R (319)
Tuesday July 30, 2013, 10:57 pm
Lily T. (8)
Tuesday July 30, 2013, 9:46 pm
To turn this into ethnic cleansing of the Jewish people is dishonest

No it is not. History clearly shows that the Palestinian leadership are demanding a state that is 100% Judenfrei. Look what happened in Gaza and West Bank block A. Since 2005, it has been 100% Judenfrei or to use a deceitful term "Israeli-frei". Some of the Jewish families evacuated from Gaza and West Bank Block A have been living in those areas for over 3000 years! It was a mistake on Israel's part to removed them.

There are many Jewish people who live in West Bank who are not "settlers" but Jewish families who have been living in those places for over 3000 years continuously, without interruption whoever controlled the land of Israel. It is deceitful to call them "settlers".

In any case, demanding that all Israelis(who happen to be Jews) leave the new state of Palestine is racist in itself and to the extreme. Imagine your tantrum were Israel to demand that all Palestinians leave Israel.

Alexa R (319)
Tuesday July 30, 2013, 11:02 pm
Chad Anderson (73)
Tuesday July 30, 2013, 6:42 pm
The "solution" of expelling Jews from the Sinai or from Gaza is not satisfactory, even if it is done by the Israeli army. Other provision should be made to trade land, guarantee equal status of Jews in Palestine, or provide incentives for settlers to move within whatever are the final borders of Israel.

I absolutely agree Chad, part of the negotiations and agreements should include guaranteed equal status of Jews in the new state of Palestine.

Alexander Werner (53)
Tuesday July 30, 2013, 11:51 pm

Do you really think for a moment that Palestinian Arabs want to make peace with Israel? After demanding from Israel the release of 104 known and proven murderers of the Israelis? After seeing that West Bank Arabs are at war with Gaza Arabs? After seeing beginning of a civil war between Egyptian Arabs? After watching civil war raging for years between Iraqi Arabs?

If Arab entities cannot live in peace with each other, what are the chances that Palestinian Arabs decide to live in peace with Israeli Jews?

They will beg, demand and force what they can, and then disappear at the right moment, like Arafat did.

fly bird (26)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 12:06 am

agitprop, here, and agitprop there

quack, quack here, quack, quack there
everywhere a quack, quack....
e i e i o

Jay S (116)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 2:29 am
If the Arabs had not attacked Israel in 1967, they would not have lost that land, fair and square, and due to their own hate and aggression. The land belongs to the Israelis who beat the aggressors and should keep it. Maybe the Arab Muslims should stop whining for a change (always the victims even when they are the victimizers) and get off their lazy, non-productive fat butts and do something positive and constructive for a change. They produce nothing but oil while the Israelis produce so much for the benefit of human kind in science and medicine and the environment. Let the idiots boycott Israel and give up all the medicines and inventions for a better life. Just go out and buy more filthy oil products and support Muslim aggression and hate. Idiots.

MmAway M (509)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 2:44 am
Thank you Alex! Going to read tomorrow. Night!

Alexander Werner (53)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 4:48 am
The comment "agitprop" comes from Jessica is the highest praise she can give, as a an agitprop expert!

Well, Jessica, people don't like approach of anarchists, destroyers, occupiers and self-humiliation for a reason.

. (0)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 6:27 am
Regardless of whether it's Fatah or Hamas the Palestinians won't be satisfied until they have destroyed what Israel has built. Prior to 1947 most of the north was malaria and snake infested swamps and the south was desert. The Israelis cleaned it up and made it bloom.
One should look no further than Gush Katif if they want an example of the destructive paradigm that is Hamas and Fatah and all the sheople in between.
Fatah and Hamas aren't partners for peace and anyone who thinks they are has been either chasing the Dragon or drinking the Kool-aid.
BTW Mr. Kerry you are nothing but a joke. Go sail your yacht and see if you can berth it in Rhode Island to avoid paying your taxes in Massachusetts. What was King Barky thinking in appointing you? Then again he did give a high level petition to that uber socialist the Wicked Witch of the Midwest too.

Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 6:48 am
Putting aside these valid questions and issues for just a moment, I have to say that I doubt the Palestinian people have any say in the matter nor would they benefit from an independent Palestinian state. Without benefit of Israeli financial support and technology, and given what we know about the Arab propensity for rendering *aid*, the Palestinians would be cast adrift in the murky waters without the proverbial paddle. An independent Palestinian state would be nothing more than an even more convenient staging ground for further attacks on Israel.
Anyone who believes that the Arab extremist leaders want a Palestinian state for any reason other than personal gain is a fool.

divergent revolution (309)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 7:24 am
Israel keeps offering their hand in friendship,and they all just bite at it,and then want to blame the offered hand as being unfair....oxymoronic thinking
take a lot of nerve,and this I have seen in person
the only people who upset me more ,are the satmir fanatics that live there,but are against the Israeli government
even though they claim to be Jewish!

Gillian M (218)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 8:11 am
Lily, ignorance of history is no excuse. There has already been an ethnic cleansing of Jews from all Muslim controlled countries in the Middle East. These same countries are now attempting to do so with Christians as well as in Africa. Try taking your blinkers off and have a look on the internet.

I would also add that there are no Jews allowed in Gaza, an area to which "Palestinians" have no legal or moral right. Nor do they have such a right to Judea/Samaria. The Arabs rejected such land as they believed that they were going to destroy Israel. In the meantime, they had already been given Transjordan, now Jordan, which was 70% of the land already allocated to Israel. In other words, the "Palestinians" already have 70% of Israel.

Then they talk about pre-1967 borders but not the legal borders which came into existence with the birth of Israel in 1948, why not?

And Lily, do you know that Israel is the only country in the world that was agreed upon by both the League of Nations and the United Nations but is still the only country in the world that has to continually to justify its existence? I wonder why that is?

Patricia Gal (103)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 8:14 am
noted, thanks for the story

Kenneth L (314)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 9:04 am
I would hope that any future independent state of Palestine would then of course rise up in the world to offer great service and benefit to the rest of humanity in the fields of education, human rights, religious tolerance, medicine, etc. But why does that seem kind of a far-fetched idea?

The Human Development Index of world countries as determined by the UN regarding literacy, education, child welfare, standard of living, quality of life, well-being, etc. ranks Israel as No. 16. It is above other countries such as Spain, the U.K., China, Italy, France and many others.


P. L. Neola (21)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 9:28 am
It does not sound good for the Israelis.

The Palestinians should never been granted a sub-state status, considering that they were the squatters on Israeli soil after the 1948 annexation. The British and the other nations involved gave Israel that region because of the Biblical history of the land. This land belonged to the Jews for several millenniums. Islam was founded by nomadic merchants that really did not have any roots in any specific place in the Middle East. As Islam spread, the ideology began developing roots because the converts were already established in their own nations.

The Israelis should have followed God’s original advice. Since it is unethical to kill a displaced race, they should have bused them to some other Arab countries. The Palestinians should have been relocated out of the region before 1955.

I might sound cold-hearted, however, Israel is in great danger, because these Arab nations are going to unite as one large force and will begin the Islamic warmongering behavior of their past.

I feel nothing but danger for Israel and the rest of the non-Islamic world.

Alexa R (319)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 11:20 am
Marg Mayer (0)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 10:54 am

In advance, I know what the response(s) will be. I will be called an anti-Semite, a terrorist supporter and far worse.

Yeap, indeed. What an antisemitic diatribe! At least you recognise your own disposition.

And btw we've refuted all of what you said in your post up thread before you even posted it. (By now we know your "agitprop" off by heart .. and we still don't buy it.)

At least we provide care2 readers with a rare opportunity to ALSO see/read/hear Israel's side of the story backed up with facts and evidence as above and in this article.)


Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 11:25 am
Whatevers given or taken or what is said i dont see long term peace in these lands

Past Member (0)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 11:29 am
When I read something like this I think of the ridiculous outcome of what may become from of this sort of thinking. First you decide to only have those 'like you' living near you. Once you rid your area of those not 'like' from an obvious discernment, then you start excluding those who are not as much 'like you' as others . It is then that you decide to exclude others not 'like you' because of beliefs, then perhaps skull sizes, etc until you end your exclusion of those not 'like you' until you have - just you. What a lonely world that would be.

Alexa R (319)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 11:29 am
Marge, you think it is convincing to try and make out that Israel is a warmonger when the rest of her Arab neighbours in the Middle East is at civil war?

It rather confirms why the IDF is needed in order for Israel to remain the only democracy in the Middle East.

Kenneth L (314)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 11:47 am
MM wishes to 'win an argument.' LOL. Not up to you in the teeniest regarding the outcome of Israel-Palistinian peace talks. This is a tiny thread, one of gazillions that have existed on the internet with gazillions of people putting forth their 'proof' and 'historical accuracy' and views and opinions blah blah blah on both sides. There are and have been DELUGES of arguments on both sides of this issue for DECADES all over the world.
Try not to be so self-important dear. So infatuated with your own opinions and yourself. You're another dime-a-dozen self-proclaimed 'authorities' which are found to be very common on the internet regarding many things.

Beth S (330)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 12:29 pm
Send a Green Star to Kenneth L.
Sending a Green Star is a simple way to say "Thank you"
Show Green Star as from: Beth S. Anonymous

Care won't let me give you this star, Kenneth, as it keeps saying, "there has been an unexpected error. Try again." I tried again and again. So please accept my green star of trying for your great comments.

. (0)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 1:21 pm
I wouldn't expect any difference from you people. As for Ken, I gather you now joined the crazy train. The historical record is the historical record Ken. Perhaps you should actually read an Israeli Jewish history book. All mainstream historians (virtually everyone except Karsh) don't differ. That is the problem, you see to base your uniformed ignorance on blogs and threads rather than actually reading the historical record.

You people actually don't want peace, you just want space to demonize another population.

Alexandra - I didn't say Israel is a warmonger, actually these are quotes, not my words. Isn't it funny that it actually comes primarily from Israeli Jews who were there in 1967, were leaders during those years.

Why not actually refute the points with credible sources to back up your claims to prove me wrong?

Ken - posting the historical record has something to do with self importance? Or is it just your ignorance that makes you hypersensitive. I see no one, not one of you actually arguing what I posted.

fly bird (26)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 1:26 pm
Take action now...end bigotry and incitement against Palestinians and Muslims.

Alexa R (319)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 1:34 pm
. (0)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 1:21 pm

Alexandra - I didn't say Israel is a warmonger, actually these are quotes, not my words. Isn't it funny that it actually comes primarily from Israeli Jews who were there in 1967, were leaders during those years.

And now they've been proven to be distorting the truth and delusional, as it is clear that the surrounding Arab lands, Israel's neighbours, where bloody civil wars are raging, are the true warmongers.

Your attempt to convince through quoting delusional Jews who have been distorting the truth is not working. I don't have to quote or show any sources to refute your quotes, the reality that is presently unfolding in the Middle East is refuting your quotes as we speak.

You and any other delusional Jews will have to find another agitprop, the "Israel is the warmonger" one has become ineffective. The Arab world of the Middle East have finally shown their true colours for all the world to see with their civil wars among themselves.


Lily T. (8)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 2:11 pm
Alexandra - Would it be so difficult o actually either address the material posted? If you disagree with it, then address it providing credible, sourced material to support your argument. Instead we again are supposed to follow you down the rabbit hole. I have no interest in following your flight of fantasy nor am defending my character. This is not about me, this is specifically about Israel and Palestine. You showed your true colours along time ago. I wonder does your sense of racial superiority come along with your conversion, or did you have to obtain it independently? I have no use for people who actually claim Ari Sharon as their personal hero.

Alexa R (319)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 2:32 pm
Lily T, this thread is not about me, and I've no desire to win the argument.

I've also no interest in providing sourced material to refute your or MM's agitprop when the reality of the Middle East has refuted it already. Why try and flog a 'dead horse'?

Perhaps you can contribute a comment specifically about the Israel-Palestine peace process?

refhan irtem (13)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 3:14 pm
Filistin ne zaman devlet oldu ki İsrail'in 1967 sınırlarına dönmesini istiyor.Barış istiyorlarsa önce empatiyi kullanmak zorundalar.Kudüs tüm dinlerin evrensel bir tapınağıdır ve yahudiler oraya daha iyi bakar yönetimi İsrail'e verilmelidir.

Dori Grasso (0)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 3:16 pm
G.M., you wrote: "For readers who don't know, 20% of the population of Israel is made up of Palestinians who have exactly the same rights as any other Israeli. Now, why don't they call themselves Israeli and not Palestinian?"

Well, many of them do-- those who live within the pre-Six Day War borders. They refer to themselves as Israeli Arabs, many serve in the IDF, they have representatives in the Knesset, and they attend every single Israeli college and university. The Arab doctors and nurses (both Muslim and Christian) work alongside their Jewish counterparts in hospitals in peace, and teach in universities, and work as architects, engineers, and take full part in Israeli society. These are people who have NO interest in being part of a Palestinian state. They're fully aware that their average standard of living is the highest of any Arab population in the Middle East. And they are NOT the ones who think it's OK to blow up their neighbors.

Alexa R (319)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 3:43 pm
Free Gaza (0)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 3:36 pm

This is what I had posted earlier that mysteriously disappeared. Alexandra - this is what you need to address. My argument isn't built on what I say, it is built on what Israel's whether politician, academic or military say.


Free G. See my full and complete address and refuting of your disappearing comment up thread. Mine have not yet disappeared.

Alexa R (319)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 4:29 pm
Free Gaza (0)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 4:17 pm

Alexandra - There is a difference between statements by people who were actually the power brokers during the war, and your opinion.


It is not 'my opinion' that there are bloody civil wars raging in Arab lands surrounding Israel - it is the reality. I refuted your and your delusional selection of Jewish quotes, with the reality of what's happening.

Are you going to continue trying to convince this thread that Israel is supposedly the warmonger by simply repeatedly using your selection of delusional Jewish historians' quotes? Does not matter how many times you repeatedly quote them, its lost its credibility at the hand of reality within Arabs land in the Middle East where civil wars are raging. It has become clear to the rest of the world who the true warmongers are.

Alexa R (319)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 4:52 pm
Free Gaza (0), is that the worst you could come up with against me?

It is laughable .. thanks for a good laugh.

Lee Hampton (15)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 6:38 pm
Margaret's not obnoxious and wrong enough as herself, so she's back with her cherry pickings as "Free Gaza". Good grief, move there and stay, please.

Carol Dreeszen (346)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 7:01 pm
I agree!!! Too bad these arrogant bullies can't have a permanent exit from Care2!! It would make communications between different parties and people so much more worthy of the effort to communicate! When there can be no communication we can see clearly what happens as in the middle east conflicts! This my way or the highway attitude sucks and is detrimental to any solid peace foundation!

Your facts are truth Yonati! I see no possible way for there to be any peace what so ever between the Palestinians and Israel! After all how can there be sincere peace when the conditions are so one sided!? And to have Obama stick his nose in and say Israel needs to release terrorists and murderers as a condition for peace!? Unbelievable!!

Stuart Thomas (497)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 10:19 pm
Noted. Wow! A lot of people have quite a bit to write on this subject.

Thank you for the posting, Alexa

fly bird (26)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 11:02 pm
End bigotry, bullying, targeting and incitement on this thread and any like it.

Bullying and bully gangs demonstrate attempts for control, and power over others, manifested by
the same behavior patterns.


Patricia Martinez (63)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 11:25 pm
Palestinians need to get a life, produce something besides hatred, suicide bombers, rockets to fire into civilian areas, hiding under the children's wings of hospitals and the desire for the complete annihilation of Israel and the Jewish people.

Israelis want to live in peace and have made concessions time and again. It's time for the Palestinians to actually do something meaningful in this direction, besides demanding more concessions and things that are impossible for the Israelis to give without committing suicide.

Islam, the Palestinians' guiding light, will not allow peace with the infidel in a land it once controlled.

The truth is Abbas cannot make peace with the Israelis or he will be murdered by the Palestinians and then Hamas will take over the PA.

Alexa R (319)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 11:27 pm
Carol Dreeszen (354)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 7:01 pm
I agree!!! Too bad these arrogant bullies can't have a permanent exit from Care2!! It would make communications between different parties and people so much more worthy of the effort to communicate! ...This my way or the highway attitude sucks and is detrimental to any solid peace foundation!


AMEN Carol. This "my way or the highway" is indeed detrimental to any peace. It is only used to incite and target and then used to try and point fingers ..

The IDF, bless them, have to deal with this bigotry and bullying on a daily basis .. I take my hat off to them. So Israeli journalists. (I'll post something in my next comment).


reft h (66)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 11:28 pm
"In a final resolution, ..."

it sounds disturbingly similar to "the final solution" from a time long ago - and yet not all that long ago....

Alexa R (319)
Wednesday July 31, 2013, 11:30 pm
I quote: "Fadi Arouri is one of Ramallah’s biggest opponents of normalizing Israeli-Palestinian ties. He’s also a photographer who isn’t interested in separating his professional journalism and political activism.

And that raises questions about his association with the Reuters wire service and China’s Xinhua News Agency. HonestReporting has learned Reuters fired Arouri, apparently over his extra-curricular activities, but the wire service continues to use his work on a free lance basis.

Anti-Normalization Infects The Palestinian Media

The anti-normalization campaign condemns Israeli-Palestinian events whether they are political, business, or academic. Even children’s sporting events are taboo. All such activities, it is argued, “legitimize the Israeli occupation.”

This rejectionism has taken over the Palestinian Journalists Syndicate (PJS). That’s why in recent weeks, Israeli reporters and employees of Israeli news services working in the West Bank have faced increasing hostility. The PJS claims it’s fighting for freedom of movement in Israel.

Freedom of movement for journalists is certainly reasonable — but coming from this crowd, it’s a difficult argument to hear. The same journalists opposed to normalization are demanding Israeli travel permits and Israeli press credentials so they can work inside Israel, and interview the same Israelis they refuse to even let their kids play soccer with."

Photojournalist stages news for profit and ideology

Wednesday July 31, 2013, 11:59 pm
Peaceful-Islamic-Democracy-Coexistence now there are a bunch of contradictory terms!

Stan B (123)
Thursday August 1, 2013, 12:01 am
I very much doubt that ANYONE in their right mind would WANT to live in a future Palestinian state, unless they were forced to.

Stephen Brian (23)
Thursday August 1, 2013, 1:40 am
Hi "Free Gaza"

There are serious problems with the sources that you cited. They were, at the time, mostly soldiers, looking at the war at hand, and not the longer term effects.

In 1967, Israel was in no danger of immediate destruction. It was, however, in danger of a slower "mortal wound". Israel's qualitative military superiority relies heavily upon its very expensive, and expensive to maintain, technological advantages. Contrary to popular belief, the U.S. actually only covers a small, though obviously non-negligible, part of Israeli military costs. The bulk of it comes from the local economy, which is heavily concentrated in its cities, Three guesses what would happen to the economy, and then that military advantage, should conventional war really hit those cities. Israel was in little danger of being destroyed in 1967, but it was under severe threat of being set up to lose the next war after that.

Soldiers at the time, from Rabin to the non-uniformed Dayan, were in no position to really judge the impact of infrastructure-damage on the country's economy and ability to maintain its armed forces for the next war. They did not have the information to properly assess the threat.

As for Maoz, the fact that he is a professional academic, working in the social sciences, means nothing. Those fields are so badly littered with propaganda and circular logic that academic achievements in them are meaningless. The problem is that the liberal assumption that cultural differences don't matter, the strength of which is the primary dividing line in Western politics, is one of simplification in the social sciences. It's used to make studies feasible, and then results are published as though they are reliable. The problem is that the results can look logically consistent even in cases where it does not apply, like that of the Israeli/Arab conflicts, so it bounces around in the echo-chamber of academic literature without ever really getting checked, and it is politically incorrect to do so now after it has been circularly "confirmed" so many times, leaving most Western academics of the social sciences very heavily liberally biased. The Western political division on the Israeli/Arab conflict really comes down to whether one believes that this assumption applies to that conflict, and that political affiliation can easily overcome identity-bias among Jews and other Westerners.

Also, providing sources does not prevent something from being agitprop. I can cite propaganda-sources and fish for quotes from people who lacked information just as easily as anybody else. That doesn't make it "historical record".

I know how the usual responses my posts go: "But you didn't cite anything! Whaaaa!" The fact is that there are three elements of arguments, facts, logic, and questions. Logic and questions need no citation, and I don't need additional facts beyond what you posted, except I suppose that Dayan and Rabin thought and acted at the time as soldiers, to support the logic demonstrating your interpretations to be wrong. I guess if you want a citation, look at your own posts.

Stephen Brian (23)
Thursday August 1, 2013, 1:54 am
I noticed another person you cited, not a soldier nor an academic, Menachem Begin.

Begin became the leader of Irgun, which split of from the primary Jewish militia over its policy of limiting strikes against Palestinian communities to retaliation for attacks originating from them and instead "hit them back first". The man does not exactly get hero-status. Given his history, his comment about Israel's wars being wars of choice looks more like bragging than clearheaded analysis.

Syd H (48)
Thursday August 1, 2013, 2:03 am
So you guys must be flagging the posts/comments that don't agree with your righteous positions on Israel. But it's obvious you are playing censorship games because the comments by you to these now missing comments are still there.

All the more proof you only will see what you have decided to see rather than truth and reality.

None are so blind as those who will not see.

Being a Jew or an Israeli does not make anything or anyone golden. It just gives them some sort of excuse to be an ass and get away often with murder... oh, and bank several billion US dollars every year.

Carol Dreeszen (346)
Thursday August 1, 2013, 3:32 am
*****The IDF, bless them, have to deal with this bigotry and bullying on a daily basis .. I take my hat off to them. So Israeli journalists. (I'll post something in my next comment).

Lord..Do I know what they go through Yonati!! Every day!!! It gets tiring but they can't give it a break or snooze or they lose!

Alexa R (319)
Thursday August 1, 2013, 3:44 am
Syd, perhaps it was Free Gaza who flagged Marg M's post.

Because I see that Free Gaza posted exactly what Marg M posted first. Perhaps Free Gaza did not want Marg M to take her favourite agitprop -so flagged it to get rid of it therefore leaving her free to post it again..

Keep up Syd, or you'll miss out on another laugh.


Past Member (0)
Thursday August 1, 2013, 4:19 am
Syd/Marg/.(0)/et al., You might bear in mind that the worst any of us can do is flag an inappropriate comment. It's up to Care2 Support to evealuate the complaint; they only delete posts that violate the Code of Conduct.

Dori Grasso (0)
Thursday August 1, 2013, 6:07 am
Lee Hampton, concerning your comment "MM/Free Gaza, goddess of secretary and coffee-fetcher for lefty-loony-all self important university faculty,"-- please be aware that being left-wing does not automatically mean that you're anti-Israel. On the contrary, almost all of my friends and family, both Jews and non-Jews, consider themselves liberal/progressive. And we uniformly support Israel. Many of us make trips there every year or two. Please don't tar liberals that way. There are a few on the left who are rabidly anti-Semitic. There are also many on the right, as well.

Dori Grasso (0)
Thursday August 1, 2013, 6:16 am
Syd, your last paragraph IS offensive-- but I won't flag it. You wrote, "Being a Jew or an Israeli does not make anything or anyone golden. It just gives them some sort of excuse to be an ass and get away often with murder... oh, and bank several billion US dollars every year."

Think about your words the next time you go to a hospital with a wing named after someone who's obviously Jewish, or attend a symphony with your local orchestra, or hear of a chair or department endowed at a university.

Alexa R (319)
Thursday August 1, 2013, 7:44 am
Free Gaza (0)
Thursday August 1, 2013, 6:56 am
Nobody ever said that we are an army for preventive wars . . . I do not accept that the mere fact that the Egyptian army is deployed in Sinai makes war inevitable. . . . We are not alone in the world. . . . Are we to live all our lives by the sword? [Levi Eshkol addressing the Army’s General Staff, 27 May 1967]

“By all reports Israel received from the Americans, and according to its own intelligence, Nasser had no interest in bloodshed” [Michael Oren, Six Days of War, p.78]


Yeah right, just like Israel's Arab neighbours who do not want bloodshed, yet most of them are in civil war.

You're still not convincing Free Gaza.

Appeasement of unreasonable demands in the hope that they will be in a good mood and spare innocent Israeli lives can by no stretch of the imagination be called "peace".

It sounds no different to an abusive boyfriend: "look, I don't want to become violent and have bloodshed to clean up, so you better do as I demand in every single detail - that's the ONLY way to keep the peace you so desperately want 'b...%&^"

I'm proud of Israel standing up and firm, defending herself and not giving in to unreasonable demands in the hope of elusive peace in return. Never Again.

Luckily, it is now clear for all the world to see that the Arab lands surrounding Israel cannot, do not even live in peace with themselves and that it is not Israel who is the warmonger as so many deluded people have tried to claim.


Alexa R (319)
Thursday August 1, 2013, 8:52 am
Kenneth L. (315)
Thursday August 1, 2013, 8:04 am
Star to Stephan Brian for using rationality and logic.


I agree with you Kenneth, too could not help but star Stephen for his excellent post, well presented, well reasoned and logical. Stephen, you show depth of understanding on such a broad range of issues, that it is a pleasure to read your comments and learn from it.

I have asked you privately, but will ask you publicly too, if you would mind if I bookmark your comment for future reference.

Alexa R (319)
Thursday August 1, 2013, 10:18 am
The following made particular sense Brain:

You may have noticed a running theme here with Rabin, Maoz, and U.S. intelligence-analysis. They generally believe that you don't have to look at cultures, that different people will act roughly similarly. That's just a direct implication of the liberal assumption.

I can now understand clearly why they've been so delusional. And why those who wish to paint Israel as the supposed warmongers, use their quotes out of context.

Beth S (330)
Thursday August 1, 2013, 11:11 am
YOU are complaining about ad hominem attacks? I recall that you mastered and modeled the behavior on many threads. Really, really nasty, I might add, Marg-Free Gaza.

Funny that now that others are giving it back to you, you are trying to feign the high ground.

I don't blame anyone here for giving you a taste of your own poison.

Alexa R (319)
Thursday August 1, 2013, 11:22 am
What a hysterical post Free Gaza. Not a single logical argument or evidence for anything. Simply a lot (loooong lot) of probably false accusations and distortions about other posters, etc.

Oh well. Once more we're seeing your true colours.

. (0)
Thursday August 1, 2013, 12:09 pm
I'm only here to say that I guess I'm a dreamer. I wish that both sides ( each has a story to tell) would finally sit down, talk things out and try for a resolution which has evaded this region far too long. If not for themselves-do it for future generations. Hate and fear are the most debilitating forces on this planet. TY Alex for this important post.

Beth S (330)
Thursday August 1, 2013, 3:10 pm
I rest my case.


Past Member (0)
Thursday August 1, 2013, 3:24 pm
You cannot currently send a star to Beth because you have done so within the last day.

Suzanne L (99)
Thursday August 1, 2013, 3:28 pm
Thank you for posting Alexandra. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict won't be settled on Care2 no matter how passionately people argue, and I am not optimistic about ongoing peace talks involving the U.S. Palestinian leaders have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity and I think many Israeli's have moved much further to the right because of it.

Alexa R (319)
Thursday August 1, 2013, 4:03 pm
Free Gaza, Marg, MM, (0).

Can you please have the decency to refrain from turning a thread I posted into a personal vendetta you have with another care2 member of things that supposedly transpired between you two a very long time ago? Move on, get over it. Or is such a common courtesy too much to ask from you?

If you do not like my threads, why come and spoil it for the rest of us with your personal vendettas from days gone by?

I happen to enjoy Stephen's intelligent and insightful posts and find myself learning from him and his insight. It shows that he is as capable of philosophical, intellectual and academic discussions as what he is grounded in reality, added to it the vital ingredient of empathy.

He realises that here in Israel, it is real people, real innocent Israeli children and civilians that are under threat for their lives. And yet, I've still not seen any unhappy Israelis - perhaps because life is so precious, everyone is prepared to make the most of it, not just for themselves, but for others too. And to do all they can for the best country in the world -- Israel.

Kenneth L (314)
Thursday August 1, 2013, 7:27 pm
Marg is a common troll. Which is why she hijacks threads.
Know-it-alls love attention and hearing their own mouth motor on and on and on like it has some value. As I said before, she has ZERO ACTUAL EFFECT regarding the Israel-Palestine issue.

There is no 'unless you people don't want to prove me wrong' scenario in actuality going on here with MM. That's a false statement by her. There is NOTHING that anyone could say that could 'prove her wrong', IN HER MIND. It's a lie and a setup.

And again with the 'you people' and 'this group'. More generalities from a stinking bigot.

The hypocrisy of MM was clear from her very first line of her very first post on this thread....she insulted GM right off the bat, first sentence right out of her mouth. THEN she cries about 'ad hominem' attacks. ROTFL! Stinking hypocrite.

The illusion of 'historical accuracy' and 'historical fact'. Any historian knows actual historical fact is extremely basic precise concrete data such as date, location, signatures, actual documents, verifications of such. Past that point regarding events or meaning or whys or causes it is only HISTORICAL VIEWPOINT, HISTORICAL OPINION, HISTORICAL INTERPRETATION. IT IS DATA MODIFIED BY VIEWPOINT.

But don't try to tell this to a know-it-all.


Stephen Brian (23)
Thursday August 1, 2013, 8:34 pm
Hi Kenneth,

Here's the problem. Trolls like Margaret actually do have an effect on the Israeli-Palestinian issue. They get people killed.

Internet forums like Care2 are modern nodes of civic discourse. These are the places where politicians, the media, and other activists look to see which way the political wind is blowing today. A convincing troll like Margaret can easily encourage the sorts of "humanitarian" groups which regularly act against their own stated goals and like-minded politicians. Between claiming to oppose all violence, and then arguing against it in terms that could only possibly drive restraint on one side of a conflict (while arguing vehemently that she is no apologist for terrorists), presenting her badly screwed up opinions as facts, and making fine-sounding demands with no concern for the well-being of anybody involved, she seems to imitate those groups perfectly. I am concerned, though, that she may not quite be imitating them. They may be imitating a popular movement of trolls like her.

I wouldn't quite call her a murderer, but I consider people like her are responsible to be responsible for thousands of deaths. I'm just glad they didn't manage to destroy the tradition of ceasefires (conditional pausing in violence before peace is resolved when both sides are confident that it can be) in 2003, when they claimed that the U.S. and Iraq were at peace. I opposed the invasion until they started that, but then failure to invade ran the risk of setting a precedent where violence could not be conditionally paused, leaving wars active through the years that it normally takes to finish negotiations, until both sides are satisfied with a final peace deal. The body-count from such a precedent would be enormous, and people like Margaret who push for good-looking changes in matters they don't even begin to understand would be the last ones to accept blame for it.

fly bird (26)
Thursday August 1, 2013, 10:27 pm
Stephen Brian:
"Trolls like Margaret actually do have an effect on the Israeli-Palestinian issue. They get people killed."

" I wouldn't quite call her a murderer, but I consider people like her to be...."

Here's something for you, and the rest of the bashing team here.
Your tirades, and abuse are obviously, permissible in your eyes. The hate projected here says a lot more
to people seeing this stuff, than anything else.
This smear campaign, a la Nazi, is ugly. Rather than take a step back and look at yourselves, and show some decency, you maliciously dump, en masse, to get your own private kicks and salvage your egos.
You are actively trying to shut down another person's comments, out of malice and hate to control what
is said. The people doing this, know who they are. There's no point playing dumb, or acting superior.
I know, when people are discourteous and abusive. It is not up for discussion.
It's not what you think you know or, if you're "right" - it's what you say, and how you say it. The cronies
here would do well to consider, if they would want their children (those who
have children) to carry on this way.
I think some of you have just lost touch with the big picture. Talking about I-P, doubts, opinions, "facts",
etc., seems totally futile, when participants engage in dirt slinging, and emotional abuse.
I don't expect anyone to "turn over a new leaf" - but it would certainly improve the discourse all round, as
far as I am concerned.
This should not be a place for hateful language. For some of us, we say what we do, not to change others,
but to express our own points of view, safely.
Bullying is offensive and reprehensible.
since you mention "murderers" and people getting killed, let me tell you, hate/malice can be toxic.
Vicious name calling, targeting and bullying people has a very serious effect, and this has been
responsible for deaths, and suicides.
There's no need to regroup or assault people with words. Hate speech is detrimental to everybody.
It adds nothing good, it just stinks.
This is for anyone, who wants to hear my message, in the right spirit. There's no arrogance here,
It's a shame, that's all., not to be able to see comments, without personal attacks and bias.

point arguing this. I am not interested. I have seen kids in the playground


Alexa R (319)
Friday August 2, 2013, 12:57 am
Jessica, all you've said is truth of yourself, Lily and Marg, Free Gaza, MM, (0).

Not all people reading this thread are going to fall for your deceit and for how it is actually you and your friends that tried to hijack this thread and turn it into a bullying, name-calling fest.

None of us that you and your friends call "you people" have any problem with someone posting valid arguments, we all obviously have a problem with trolling and rabid ad hominem attacks that started off within your and your friends' very first posts.

In fact, a lot of people reading this thread are going to realise that what we've shared here is so true, that it brought out the hysterical trolls trying to derail this thread because they cannot delete the thread.


Alexa R (319)
Friday August 2, 2013, 6:48 am
Free Gaza,

Your comment is more a reflection of yourself than of me.

Would you mind to cite your resources to back up your attempt at character assassination?

Alexa R (319)
Friday August 2, 2013, 8:35 am
Free Gaza,

Are you going to continue in your circular one-sided debate because you're determined to get the last word in?


Maggie Kearns (7)
Friday August 2, 2013, 8:36 am
Thanks Alexa! Once again,another anti-semetic tirade by Abbas. This deal will fail because Israel is the only one who wants peace.

Gillian M (218)
Friday August 2, 2013, 9:35 am
Maggot is high jacking this board with personal abuses because she doesn't want us to talk about the truth which is that the Palestinians in Gaza are liars and cheats as well as showing themselves in their true lights, untrustworthy liars who won't negotiate true peace with Israel. In other words, it is the Palestinians and NOT the Israelis who are the baddies in all of this.

Gillian M (218)
Friday August 2, 2013, 9:44 am
Stephen, you must know that the maggot knows more than you as she is a member of the faculty.

Actually, no she isn't, she's a receptionist so anything you tell her goes straight over her head hence the personal abuses.

Gillian M (218)
Friday August 2, 2013, 9:49 am
Lily, you have attacked Alexa and asked for sourced material but you haven't provided any yourself to dispute.

I have commented on Jewish ethnic cleansing from Muslim controlled countries in the Middle East but you have ignored that so I can only assume that Jews have no rights. I mentioned the current cleansing of Christians from these same countries as well as in Africa but you have ignored that too so I suppose Christians don't rate very highly on your radar. I didn't mention their suffering in Pakistan or Syria either but we are talking many thousands of people murdered, women and little girls raped and often forcibly converted. But, hey, they are only Christians so of no value either.

And, as for what is happening to Muslim women and children in Muslim controlled countries, their suffering is appalling.

Now, would you like to review my stories of Muslim abuses or will you accept them?

Now we look at Gaza and the appalling behaviour of Hamas towards their own people. We look at how Hamas continues to commit war crimes by training little children to use weapons and brainwash them to hate and kill Israelis. They teach them to throw stones at Israelis to kill and maim them, including Israeli children. They fire rockets daily into Israel. Is there anything here that you need sources for?

And as for their suffering, try this

And, the bottom line of this article is that Abbas, and any other Palestinian leader, will not allow Jews on their land. Yet Israel has well over 1 million living there with the same rights and privileges as any other Israel regardless of ethnic or religious origin (& there are many who have fled to Israel because of Muslim persecution) including sending representatives to parliament.

Gillian M (218)
Friday August 2, 2013, 10:00 am

As Israeli and Palestinian negotiators meet, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas makes it clear that ‘compromise’ is not in his vocabulary.

While members of the international community focus on the establishment of a Palestinian state, believing it will bring about true peace and prosperity, the Palestinian leadership’s own vision for peace is often ignored. But insiders say that a careful look at what Palestinian President Abbas envisions as peace makes it apparent that the Palestinian leadership is seeking Israel’s destruction, instead of peaceful coexistence with the Jewish state.

“We have frankly said, and always will say: If there is an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital, we won’t agree to the presence of one Israeli in it,” Abbas says.

This approach is not only dangerous; it also nullifies any possible good that could come out of the negotiations, observers maintain. “Abbas’ vision of peace in the Holy Land is duplicitous and repugnant and only serves to undermine Secretary of State Kerry’s peace initiative,” says Rabbi Marvin Hier, founder and dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center. “The bitter irony is that Abbas has made a career out of rejecting Israel as a Jewish State, yet has the audacity to claim for himself that the future Palestinian state will be cleansed of Jews.”

“Abbas and his supporters continue to call Israel a racist and apartheid state—despite the fact that nearly 20% of Israeli citizens are Christians and Muslims,” Rabbi Hier goes on to say. “Now as renewed peace talks struggle to gain traction, he has signaled Israelis that the neighbor who will be sharing the Holy Land plans to exclude all Jews from its domain.”

Abbas has also been clear about his idea of borders and what he will and will not agree to coming out of the talks in Washington D.C. “East Jerusalem is the capital of the state of Palestine … if there were and must be some kind of small exchange (of land) equal in size and value, we are ready to discuss this – no more, no less.”

Palestinian terrorists
In addition, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Hamas, and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad remain opposed to negotiations with Israel, while other PA officials view the peace process as the first stage in the destruction of Israel.

Stephen Brian (23)
Friday August 2, 2013, 10:28 am
"No one has bothered to respond to what I actually posted in response to the 1967 war with actual support for their argument. " ... "Waaah! Waaaah! I want quotes!"

Something you've always been too arrogant to accept is that you're not just wrong due to lack of some obscure information. If that were the case, others would present that information and cite it like you want. No, you're usually wrong because your analysis either ignores pieces of common knowledge which you possess or because it is logically inconsistent. If you start insisting that 1 + 1 = 3, nobody needs citations to say you're wrong. That's pretty much what's going on here: You based half of what you said on the assumption that soldiers are experts on the long-term economic impact of the destruction of infrastructure, Then you demanded citations when I pointed out that this is ridiculous.

Your problem here is that you weren't just left behind when humanity entered the 20th century. You were left behind in the 1300s by the Renaissance. That's when everybody else abandoned "proof by authority" and became empirical. If you want, I can find a great and classic source to tell you that fire rises because the Sphere of Fire is above the Sphere of Earth. By your "logic", quotes from the great and respected scholar, Aristotle, would trump all modern explanations using hydrodynamics and buoyancy if those ones are presented without citations.

Forget it. The rest of us are so far removed from he Middle Ages that we just don't play by your rules anymore. Stop demanding that others regress to your level. For someone who claims to understand matters so much better than the rest of us, you have no grasp of how to understand anything. The consensus of scholars and the titles of academics to which you refer mean nothing as far as credibility is concerned. That has been the foundation of research and academia for centuries.

Hi Jessica,
What tirades? What smearing? What dirt-slinging and emotional abuse? Have you seen my list of every single post that included anything that could possibly be considered name-calling of Margaret on this thread, from her first appearance here to when that post was written? There were six. A grand total of 6. out of 48 posts, not including Margaret's own stuff. I think I may have missed one there, but that still leaves them at 13%, and I would only really call one of those a "diatribe". (Yes, I included a couple of yours in that count of 48. If you want to recalculate the rate without those, feel free to do so.)

As for the quote from my post, you just mimicked exactly the behaviour that gets others so annoyed with Margaret: You quoted selectively, without context, and abused the quote to support a totally unfounded set of claims. In fact, you misquoted me, adding a period in the middle of a sentence to change its meaning. I never said that people like Margaret are murderers, as is the clear meaning of your misquote. I said they were responsible for thousands of deaths. Without their activism, wars would not last as long and fewer people would be killed so they are responsible for sustaining conditions under which more people die, making them indirectly responsible for the deaths, but they are not criminally responsible for the continued fighting.

"I know, when people are discourteous and abusive. It is not up for discussion. " No, obviously you don't.

Alexa R (319)
Friday August 2, 2013, 10:39 am
Marg, MM, (0), Free Gaza have become so abusive and showed herself in such a bad light on this thread that it seems care2 staff had been merciful enough to her to have removed her posts.


Alexa R (319)
Friday August 2, 2013, 10:49 am
I quote: "While outwardly looking positive and accommodating, Israeli and Palestinian negotiators are in fact in disagreement over when to bring up core issues such as borders and security, with the Palestinians wanting to talk about borders first, and the Israelis demanding that all topics be discussed at the same time, a senior Palestinian official said Wednesday."

Israelis, Palestinians argue over which issues come up first

"I believe that history is not made by cynics," Livni said. "It is made by realists who are not afraid to dream. And let us be these people."

Alexa R (319)
Friday August 2, 2013, 11:49 am
Now contrast what Livni says with what Israel's neighbours are saying:

"Iran's new president has called Israel an "old wound" that "should be removed," in comments to reporters published two days ahead of his inauguration.

Hasan Rouhani's remarks about Israel show he is just as full of hatred toward Israel as was his predecessor, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and no less unbridled in expressing it.

Iran's semi-official ISNA news agency said Rouhani spoke after taking part in an annual “Al Quds Day” rally in Tehran on Friday.

It quoted Rouhani as saying: "The Zionist regime has been a wound on the body of the Islamic world for years and the wound should be removed."

Rouhani won Iran's June 14 presidential election, and will replace Ahmadinejad on Sunday. He has enjoyed the image of a “moderate,” compared to his predecessor, but Israel has warned that he is “a wolf in sheep's clothing.”

Meanwhile, outgoing President Ahmadinejad on Friday warned Israel that a regional storm was on the way to "uproot" the Jewish state.

"I will inform you with God as my witness, a devastating storm is on the way that will uproot the basis of Zionism," Ahmadinejad told crowds at annual Quds Day rallies.

Israel "has no place in this region", he added."

Iran's new president shows his true colors

Gillian M (218)
Friday August 2, 2013, 1:33 pm
I thought that when Hasan Rouhani took over that he was a moderate who was interested in peace as that was the info on the internet. In fact he is as bad, if not worse, as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Iran wants to destroy Israel and America.

In fact, none of the Muslim controlled countries want Israel to survive but they are willing to use their research and products in the meantime.

Kenneth L (314)
Friday August 2, 2013, 8:28 pm

How long have you been in C2? Your profile says July/13, So you know DIDDLY regarding MM who has been kicked out of C2 many times. Do you understand that? What are you defending? So unless you are just another false name and profile who's actually been around a lot longer in C2, as I said you know DIDDLY about MM. So which is it, 'Jessica B.'? Come clean, have some personal integrity and tell the truth. Simple.

You are of the same BIGOTRY as MM who uses terms such as 'you people'. Do you get it? Only you call it 'the bashing team'.. WHO are you referring to? Anyone who confronts MM with her trolling and her hypocrisy of crying about other's 'ad hominem' attacks on her, when she does the same thing time and again herself?

MM calling me part of 'the crazy train'. What self-righteous hole did you crawl out of going on about poor poor MM and how horrible and awful she's treated and the things said to her, when she says things like that?

GROW UP! You think somebody has to take such garbage slung at them by a loudmouth know-it-all TROLL like MM who hijacks threads, is a stinking hypocrite, has at least TWO profiles to double her loud mouth?


Kenneth L (314)
Friday August 2, 2013, 8:34 pm
@Stephan, nah, she doesn't have any actual effect. You see, anyone can assemble truckloads of data about something, like the Israel-Palestine issue. Doesn't mean they know how to think with it, or know how to use it or apply it, nor does truckloads of data make someone WISE.. LOL!

John J (0)
Saturday August 3, 2013, 12:40 am
" To turn this into ethnic cleansing of the Jewish people is dishonest. What would you people do if you didn't have the conflict to justify your continual posts of misinformation? "

Don't see much disinformation in this statement
In an interview with Tablet Magazine in 2011, Palestinian Ambassador to the US Maen Rashid Areikat clearly stated that "NO JEW WOULD BE ALLOWED TO RESIDE IN THE STATE OF PALESTINE"

"Any Jew who is inside the borders of Palestine will have to leave?" Areikat was asked by interviewer David Samuels, to which the ambassador answered, "Absolutely."

The Islamic hatred of the Jews if factored into any equation together with the fact that Lying is endorsed by the prophet in order to achieve the objectives of Islam makes Abbas and his ilk untrustworthy to say the least,certainly not a partner in a peace process (which is a joke anyway)


Stephen Brian (23)
Saturday August 3, 2013, 10:15 am
Hi Kenneth :)

Actually, it's fairly rare for anybody to have the ability and motivation to assemble as much data as Margaret doe. She doesn't have to know what to do with it because she personally doesn't have the means to do anything anyways. She just litters nodes of civic discourse like Care2 with her stuff, pushes arguments the way she wants, and lets opportunistic people who actually can do things watch those nodes. Those people know what to do with their data, and the data they car about is which way civic discourse runs, not the facts of the case.

Devon Leonard (54)
Saturday August 3, 2013, 12:08 pm
I had to stop reading the comment section..... My stomach was churning with pain and sorrow........ Everybody's compulsion to "be right" was igniting wars within wars right here on Care2 in your minds...... This 'us vs them' mentality is keeping us prisoners to war and strife all over our beautiful world. Life is not black or's all the shades in-between as well. Extremism in ALL it's forms is dangerous. It's brewing like a volcano ready to erupt right here on Care2......................................
Extremism in all forms is dangerous. No country, leadership, race,religion is free of this noxious element that poisons the hearts and minds of men.
All people deserve dignity...
Lets keep working and praying for Peace. Be "For" something positive rather than tearing things down....
We can mature. I can imagine it. I know that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.....
Lets get together and do this ... Treat others, even here on Care 2 like we would want to be treated. Life could flourish......!!!!!

Stephen Brian (23)
Saturday August 3, 2013, 3:10 pm
Hi Devon :)

Don't worry about it. We had a troll here who used to be a regular Care2 poster and actually had quite a following on the site at one time. She got banned and her posts were removed. If you had seen them and gotten the posts in context, I don't think the comments here would have been so stomach-churning.

Beth S (330)
Saturday August 3, 2013, 7:58 pm
Hi Devon,

I'd like to second what Stephen is saying. I don't know who had the REALLY offending posts removed, because if you had seen them, you would have understood the reactions (that are the only thing left here) to them. For as stomach-churning as the comments you are able to read now are, if you had seen the comments that prompted them, you would have been outright vomiting!

As awful as those comments were, I'm sorry that Care2 deleted them, because anyone reading them would get a feel for the pure hatred, vitriol, lies, mean-spiritedness, prejudice and worse from the people who wrote them and the sort of things they championed.

Kind of made me feel like I wanted to shower after reading them. Don't worry, the remainder of the people here are actually nice people, in spite of the fact that you are only able to see our responses to evil.

I wish and pray that all could be tolerant, truthful and loving, and these are good things to be working for.

We must remember, thought, that tolerance of absolute intolerance is evil in itself, and it must be exposed.

Thanks for writing and caring.

Syd H (48)
Sunday August 4, 2013, 3:37 am

Kenneth L says:
You are of the same BIGOTRY as MM who uses terms such as 'you people'. Do you get it? Only you call it 'the bashing team'.. WHO are you referring to? Anyone who confronts MM with her trolling and her hypocrisy of crying about other's 'ad hominem' attacks on her, when she does the same thing time and again herself?

Just after saying:
How long have you been in C2? Your profile says July/13, So you know DIDDLY regarding MM who has been kicked out of C2 many times. Do you understand that? What are you defending? So unless you are just another false name and profile who's actually been around a lot longer in C2, as I said you know DIDDLY about MM. So which is it, 'Jessica B.'? Come clean, have some personal integrity and tell the truth. Simple.

So... anyone who comes in with a differing opinion is automatically lumped in and accused of being one particular poster with multiple IDs (as even I certainly was here) as a way to dismiss and marginalize anything they might have to say and to justify the abusive behavior used in those attacks while condemning anything someone might say that can be seen, or at least twisted as the least bit uncomplimentary of the group so as to distract from the opposing points.

This would seem to be Israel's so-called "peace" tactics in microcosm.

Anything it is not okay for Palestinians to do is fine & dandy for an Israeli who will be backed up by the military so as to be sure the Palestinian just takes it. Might makes right here and there.

Until Israel is willing to look at the behaviors, abuses, and traumas they and their citizens are imposing on others (and just what kind of role models they are being as well), then there will be no peace.

This thread is very evident of that.

Alexa R (319)
Sunday August 4, 2013, 5:08 am
That's an old bullying technique Sydney. Not many people fall for it when the real bully baits the others and then try and make them look the buly when they retaliate.

As I already said up thread and the article I then shared, I take my hat off for the IDF and Israeli journalists who have to deal with this vicious baiting on a daily basis.

Many people are wise enough in the ways of bullies, to see through it and not to get distracted by it. Even when this bullying technique is used when the truth is exposed - they can discern between truth and distracting bullies.

Why would we wish to hijack our own thread? You make little sense Syd. But please post away if you can do so in a respectful manner. We've no problem with opposing views only a problem with trolling.

Alexa R (319)
Sunday August 4, 2013, 5:31 am
Syd, perhaps also have a look at:

Arab Countries Enforce Apartheid Laws Against Palestinians - Denying Them Human Rights

I quote: "While Arabs, Muslims & Palestinians have equal rights & all freedoms in Israel, Arab states routinely discriminate against Palestinians 'where they are denied not only basic rights such as employment and health care, but also citizenship'"


Kenneth L (314)
Sunday August 4, 2013, 4:47 pm
@Syd, "so anyone who comes in and has a differing opinion is lumped in and accused of being a poster with multiple ID's...." etc. is a ridiculous GENERALITY. I haven't accused you of being/having a multiple ID have I Syd? No. So why are you addressing that accusation at me? It just verifies what you said as being false.

Btw Syd, I notice you haven't said a thing against MM who DOES use multiple ID's. Neither did Jessica B. So you and her condone it.
Neither of you has said anything against a troll (MM) and a person who has admitted by her own words "I've been kicked out of C2 more times than I can count". So that's OK with you.
Neither of you has said anything against MM and Jessica B. using phrases such as 'you people' and 'the bashing team' that are simply BIGOTED GENERALITIES. So that's obviously OK with you.

As far as my post @Jessica B. I said "UNLESS you are another false name and profile and actually been around a lot longer in C2 then you know DIDDLY about MM..."

When you actually will say something against losers who use multiple ID's to double their opinion on a single thread, and you say something against trolling, and the use of bigoted generalities such as 'you people', that will mean something to me.

Kenneth L (314)
Sunday August 4, 2013, 5:00 pm
@Devon, my respect to you Devon but it's moot when you come on a thread that has had a large number of posts deleted by C2 that were done by a troll, with 2 identities nonetheless, and you simply see all the backlash and trouble because of it.

Kenneth L (314)
Sunday August 4, 2013, 5:21 pm
I understand what Beth S. means when she says " I'm sorry that Care2 deleted them" (regarding MM and 'Free Gaza''s, being the same person's posts), but personally I'm not. All it does is give a troll an audience, attention, and a platform. That would allow and make for an awful lot of free trolling and the resultant trouble caused by it all over the place in C2 .Who needs it? 'Troll' and 'trolling' have definite definitions. Nobody just made them up here.

Alexa R (319)
Monday August 5, 2013, 12:09 am
Thanks for explaining about trolls Kenneth. The wikipedia definition is as follow:

Troll (Internet)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about internet slang. For other uses, see Troll (disambiguation).
Page semi-protected
In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally[3][4] or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[5] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[6]
While this sense of the word troll and its associated verb trolling are associated with Internet discourse, media attention in recent years has made such labels subjective, with trolling also used to describe intentionally provocative actions and harassment outside of an online context. For example, mass media has used troll to describe "a person who defaces Internet tribute sites with the aim of causing grief to families."[7][8]

Experienced participants in online forums know that the most effective way to discourage a troll is usually to ignore it[citation needed], because responding tends to encourage trolls to continue disruptive posts – hence the often-seen warning: "Please do not feed the trolls".
A popular early article defining and explaining the issue of Internet Trolls included the suggestion, The only way to deal with trolls is to limit your reaction to reminding others not to respond to trolls..[1]

Gillian M (218)
Monday August 5, 2013, 9:52 am
I think the point that people like Syd is ignoring is that we are here to condemn Abbas as well as his behaviour and attitude towards Israel and Jews and that the trolls such as MM, Jessica and Lily come along to insult everyone and push the fault on Israel. He is here to disrupt such conversation and by coming in without seeing what has already happened makes such comments spurious resulting in nonsense.

Israel has made every effort to work with Arafat offering something like 95% of his outrageous demands at Camp David and what did he do? Nothing except refuse to negotiate and steal money meant for Palestinians for both his own bank account and weapons. He also supported terrorists in prison.

Israel has tried to work with Abbas (who no longer has the legal right to speak for the Palestinians) and Abbas has always sounded really caring when speaking in English but laughs at the world in Arabic whilst refusing to negotiate. As Hollywood used to say, "He speaks with forked tongue". An example was the refusal to talk while settlements were being built on Judea/Samaria so building was suspended. Silence and the refusal to speak to any negotiator for 6 months.

Yet the world blames Israel, why?

I do know that the majority of Palestinian Arabs in Israel do not want to live under Hamas or the PA but still do not call themselves Israeli, probably too frightened to.


Lindsey O (19)
Monday August 5, 2013, 7:32 pm
I think that any Jewish resident of a future state of Palestine who had historically been a resident should be allowed to remain as a full citizen (just as many Arab residents remained in Israel as citizens after the Israeli state was created). I wouldn't include the more recent Israeli "settlers" in that category, however. And I think most people understand the distinction between the two types of Jewish residents in Palestinian territory.

Kenneth L (314)
Tuesday August 6, 2013, 7:26 pm
Lol Dale K., Your post is like a good meal. You have just served up breakfast, lunch, dinner, and snacks! Delicious!

MM has made herself a C2 pariah. Not too intelligent. Like planning to run the 100 yd. dash tomorrow and then intentionally shooting yourself in the foot the night before.

Lindsey O (19)
Tuesday August 6, 2013, 7:28 pm
What an extraordinary amount of venom I'm seeing here on this thread, all directed at a person I've both known and liked (though due to my rather lengthy hibernation I've regrettably not spoken with Margaret in awhile - my apologies for that, Margaret). Unfortunately anyone is free to claim anything with regard to her posts on this thread....since the posts are no longer around to actually read. Many seem to enjoy castigating others for supposedly violating Care2's Rules of Conduct - while at the same time violating those Rules themselves when it comes to personal and rude attacks.

Where's Dr. Lecter when you need him?

Kit B (276)
Tuesday August 6, 2013, 8:06 pm

My, my. The cabal is all here. What ever would you do if you actually had to conduct a real discussion. Oh yeah, when everyone has decided to agree with one another there is no discussion. Just people hoping for anyone to dare disagree, then like pack of blood thirsty wolves, attack.

Margaret, who is not here to defend herself but is most certainly the only thing you contemptible and foul mouthed people have in common. I read each word of the articles she gave you to read, I also am completely aware that she did not in any way say one word to any of you to deserve your wrath. She did do the one thing you can not abide, she challenged you on the merits of your poor quality of argument. The fact is you do not know the history of this or you would welcome a real discussion.

Dale, or whatever your name might be, you are not new but not around long enough to really know Margaret. Let's not pretend that you do. Not with that name and not from 2012. John D has also left Care2, some time ago. Again, I remember reading John's comments, he didn't rely as many do, on the old "Nazi" argument. He presented his case and left.

I don't know who think you are, but Care2 is not here for your need for some sort of personal vengeance. Obviously what you do not know about Margaret is far more than you pretend to know.

There are many Quislings to the cause of Israel, those who blindly and from a space of no intellect support a country no matter how wrong or how many are killed.

Each time the cause of Israel comes to these boards, I am embarrassed for all of you. Your hatred of the entire world of Islam is far stronger than any argument you might present to support Israel.

Oh yeah - let me have it. I dared to disagree.

Alexa R (319)
Tuesday August 6, 2013, 10:17 pm
Lindsey O. (2)
Tuesday August 6, 2013, 7:28 pm
What an extraordinary amount of venom I'm seeing here on this thread

Kit B. (337)
Tuesday August 6, 2013, 8:06 pm

My, my. The cabal is all here. n. Just people hoping for anyone to dare disagree, then like pack of blood thirsty wolves, attack.

Margaret, who is not here to defend herself but is most certainly the only thing you contemptible and foul mouthed people have in common

Since you both have not been here to witness just how foul mouthed and contemptible MM's ad hominem attacks were I strongly urge every one to ignore and not to feed these two new trolls.

Their ad hominem attacks on many of the posters here who I've known for a long time, not just on care2 but personally as well, are blatantly false.

Once more I strongly urge every one to ignore and not to feed these two new trolls.

Kenneth L (314)
Wednesday August 7, 2013, 3:08 am
Kit and Lindsey O.---Defending a troll and someone who has been "kicked out of C2 more times than I can count", in her own words. That's why sh'e's 'not here to defend herself' LOL. THAT IS THE TRUTH. THAT IS THE FACT.
What is your bias Kit for someone who has been kicked out of C2 more times than she can count? It's like some hand-over-your-r eyes activity. Maybe you could ask C2 Management about it? Maybe that's the actual source of her being kicked out and why? Maybe that's the correct target?
Maybe someone could ask MM? But don't count on an answer or the truth necessarily (IMO). I asked her point blank once, she never answered. And someone might just simply get her self-generated justifications why she has been so unfairly and horribly treated by C2 Management. So much so she created an OCCUPY Care2 entity on C2. That's RICH. Care2 that allows a ton of members and articles to put on their website that lauds and supported the Occupy movement worldwide when it was hugely active, and she has the nerve and stupidity to 'Occupy C2' for being awful, horrible, rotten, nasty yadda yadda yadda? I THINK THAT IS OFFENSIVE IN THE EXTREME! A complete slap in the face of C2 Management.

The 'real discussion' was trolled and derailed by MM but that's not what Kit wants to hear.

Let's suffice it to say that Kit has had her share of labeling trolls on threads haven't you Kit? And putting them down haven't you Kit? Though in more 'refined' ways of course. To her more refined and couched insults make it OK, but to others that might be worse because it is more thoughtfully crafted.

As for Kit reading every word of MM's articles when they were here and she didn't find anything worthy of 'wrath----please----the first sentence out of MM's mouth on this thread in her first post was an insult aimed at GM. FACT. Then she insulted me by saying 'I see you've joined the crazy train'. You are loaded with bias for MM, against 'you people', and for yourself in order to not see that.
Like Syd, Kit, and Lindsey O. who made the same type of false accusation---. 'Let me have it, I dared to disagree'. FALSE. Syd and Dale O. have said what they wish about Israel, who's 'letting them have it'? No one. That disproves that idea that anyone who disagrees gets jumped on.

And from Kit, a STINKING GENERALITY of "you contemptible and foul-mouthed people'. I think YOU are self-righteous. YOU have a bias which prompts such a stinking generality.

If there's one thing no one will see from Kit, Lindsey O. (apparently), and Syd, though any of you can prove me wrong of course, is a single thing said AGAINST MM as a troll and a C2 PARIAH. That indicates a great deal.


Kenneth L (314)
Wednesday August 7, 2013, 3:56 am
That should be '...Syd and LINDSEY O.' have said what they wish about Israel..."

Lindsey O (19)
Wednesday August 7, 2013, 6:04 am
Oh, I've had my share of verbal rocks thrown at me, Kenneth,throughout the years on the Israel/Palestine issue. From those on both sides of the issue. Doesn't bother me much since I don't insult easily - though anyone's always welcome to try

It would be impossible for me to say anything "against MM as a troll" for what she's said on this thread - since whoever reported her comments had them removed from view. And since in her many comments I recall from my previous stay on the forum I don't remember anything she said that would constitute trolldom. A very rare four-letter word, perhaps, but that's hardly overly shocking in my free-speech-loving book (though undoubtedly against the rules and a no-no). Though, of course, I'm hardly claiming to have knowledge of every comment ever made by any member.

Anyone who wishes others to be able to see and judge the words of another would do well to allow those words to actually BE seen and judged by others - why on the whole I prefer not to report the comments of other people since I prefer to allow their own speech to publicly indict them (if it actually does, of course).

Alexa R (319)
Wednesday August 7, 2013, 6:59 am
Lindsey O. (2)
Wednesday August 7, 2013, 6:04 am

Anyone who wishes others to be able to see and judge the words of another would do well to allow those words to actually BE seen and judged by others - why on the whole I prefer not to report the comments of other people since I prefer to allow their own speech to publicly indict them (if it actually does, of course).

None of us, to my knowledge, flagged MM's comments on this thread Lindsey. Therefore my suspicion as mentioned up-thread already that care2 removed MM's comments in an act of being merciful to her, to save "face" for her, it could even have been MM who flagged her own comments. If you paid attention also to what others have said up-thread, that they're 'sad' MM's comments were removed ..

Most if not all of us who were on the receiving end of MM's ad hominem attacks on this thread WANTED then to remain for all to see just how vile those comments were .. just look how many expressed this very sentiment of regret that MM's vile ad hominem attacks were removed ..


CareTwo Support (521)
Wednesday August 7, 2013, 7:24 am
Hi everyone,

I will ask that we refrain from the personal and off-topic comments. If you wish to use this as a forum to discuss your views on the article, that is great. Any further conversations like this will be removed. Thanks everyone!!

Kenneth L (314)
Thursday August 8, 2013, 10:00 pm
Yes, no trolls allowed. Sounds good to me. I would say Care2 should not be a proving ground for trolls.

How is it Abbas says not a single Israeli (does that mean Jew too? Someone should make him clarify that a BIT further) can live in the proposed Palestinian state yet Israel allows Arabs to live in their nation?

Sounds like proposed immediate segregation based on nationality.

And I wonder if he thinks Israel's existence should be 'conditional' too like some other yahoos. All I need say to that is the United States of America's existence as a nation then should be conditional unless they do certain things, same with Egypt, same with Canada, same with, oh that's right, basically every nation on earth could have the same 'conditional' existence terms slapped on them by somebody.

Alexa R (319)
Friday August 9, 2013, 12:07 am
Kenneth L. (323)
Thursday August 8, 2013, 10:00 pm

How is it Abbas says not a single Israeli (does that mean Jew too? Someone should make him clarify that a BIT further) can live in the proposed Palestinian state yet Israel allows Arabs to live in their nation?

Sounds like proposed immediate segregation based on nationality.

Kenneth, that's exactly the point and why I posted this item. And you're right, the conditional existence that some Western politics wish to hold Israel to, would have been a laugh in its double standard bigotry, were it not that we're talking about real people, civilians (children, 'settlers', and even some Jewish families who have lived in the West Bank for over 3000 years continuously - but are deceitfully lumped in and called 'settlers') who are paying the price because some Western politics and their cult following embolden terrorists in their killing of Jewish civilians ...

What I cannot figure yet though, is whether they do it in hatred of Jewish 'settlers' or because it provides them with entertainment and an audience?

Because, just like the Palestinian governments (PA and Hamas), I have yet to see how they are supposedly doing all this 'jew-bashing' for the sake of the poor Palestinians -- their impact on the improvement of the situation for Palestinians are rather conspicuous by absence.

Whereas, if anyone is interested and unaware or uninformed, I can give plenty of citations for what Israel is doing to improve conditions for the average 'man-in-the-street' Palestinian who lives in the Palestinian territories - in other words, not only for the Arabs who lives in Israel, but any Arab living in the Palestinian territories: things like medical treatment, Israeli jobs, business opportunities like opening a mall in Israel rather than the Palestinian territories if a business man from the territories so prefer, educational trips and tours to Israel for school kids, trips to the beaches, organising joint sports and entertainment events, etc.


Past Member (0)
Tuesday August 13, 2013, 1:01 am
It is quite amazing that both my comments were deleted when Kit's (which were both OFF TOPIC and GENERALLY OFFENSIVE) remain. Such goes double standards. Remove both of mine but remove that one if you really believe in fairness.

Robert Garvin (46)
Sunday August 25, 2013, 7:44 pm
Having read all the threads that are left here, I find a particular thread running right through this whole line of posts.
Any who make any statements in favour of what Israel has been doing in favour of ALL their constituents is immediately stated as being propaganda while any statements that are degrading to what israel is doing are being pushed as "fact". I may not see Israel as the "promised land" of Biblical consideration and the promises as given To and By Moses (most forget that Moses also stated what would happen IF his constituents went down the wrong path) BUT, when i read articles about how even a Moslem is able to be a top student in an Israeli University and I also read articles written by a "Palestinian" who refused to move out when the Israeli state was formed and who has been treated very fairly, I find it very difficult to accept the writings of those who refuse to look at the reality facts and will only listen to those who wish to have the State of Israel removed and have stated very strongly that THAT is their platform approach. Remove Israel.

It is just my opinion, but I see something that just does NOT add up. Someone is LYING. Is it those who stand for Israel with their supposed IDF propaganda? OR is it those who refuse to take any notice of the statements of Israel's enemies? I do believe that one of Israel's leaders made a very profound statement that stands out very prominently and is totally backed up by the statements from the Arab World. IF the Arabs and Palestinians OUTSIDE of Israel would put away their warmongering arms, there would be PEACE. IF on the other hand, Israel were to put away their weapons of Defence, apart from the slaughter and blood shed, there would be NO ISRAEL. That is what the whole of the Moslem Arabs around are demanding. Now also do not get me wrong, there are things that Moslems believe that I also believe BUT, and i plead with you, Consider the bloodshed and total destruction of the Jew and all the technology for the betterment of the world that they have brought into existence, how much poorer this world would be without a Jewish presence. Also, how much the freedoms that we now have will be totally removed and we shall become nothing more than slaves. THEIR WORDS. Methinketh that the Jew DESERVES to have their OWN piece of territory which they have rebuilt from waste space. They DO give freedom to those "Palestinians" that refused to move out when they were being told that Israel and the Jews would be exterminated. They have a quality of life equal to the Jewish People. What about giving THEM a fair go to live under the quality of life they are presently enjoying? To be the DUX of the university IS something that they can be justly proud of BUT it was in an ISRAELI University.
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