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Muslim Right of Return to Spain

Society & Culture  (tags: politics, religion, Islam, Spain, expulsion )

- 1552 days ago -
Observers say that by granting citizenship to all descendants of expelled Muslims, Spain, virtually overnight, would end up with the largest Muslim population in the European Union.

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Giana P (398)
Saturday February 22, 2014, 10:59 pm
Alexa, they are also granting citizenship to all Jewish descendants of expelled Jews during the inquisition 1492, they will probably be in smaller numbers than the Muslims.

Alexa R (319)
Saturday February 22, 2014, 11:34 pm
That is exactly why the sudden furore about it Giana, jealousy and wanting what the Jewish people received ..

Alexa R (319)
Saturday February 22, 2014, 11:35 pm
I quote: "Muslim groups are demanding Spanish citizenship for potentially millions of descendants of Muslims who were expelled from Spain during the Middle Ages.

The growing clamor for "historical justice" comes after the recent approval of a law that would grant Spanish citizenship to descendants of Sephardic Jews expelled from Spain in 1492.

Muslim supporters say they are entitled to the same rights and privileges as Jews because both groups were expelled from Spain under similar historical circumstances.

But historians point out that the Jewish presence in Spain predates the arrival of Christianity in the country and that their expulsion was a matter of bigotry. By contrast, the Muslims in Spain were colonial occupiers who called the territory Al-Andalus and imposed Arabic as the official language. Historians say their expulsion was a matter of decolonization."

Carol Dreeszen (346)
Sunday February 23, 2014, 12:11 am
Interesting Yonati! Wonder how much broohaha this will stir up!? Thanks!

Alexa R (319)
Sunday February 23, 2014, 12:28 am
Let's hope this article leaves the deniers speechless, Carol ..

Joy Wong (103)
Sunday February 23, 2014, 12:46 am
Thanks for sharing, Alexa.

alicia m (97)
Sunday February 23, 2014, 1:32 am
gracias, noted

Barbara K (60)
Sunday February 23, 2014, 5:21 am
Spain is having economic problems as it is, high unemployment, etc., how can they possibility take in and provide for so many more people of any kind?

Beth S (330)
Sunday February 23, 2014, 7:44 am
Good question, Barbara

Well, if the typical scenario prevails as it in most of Europe, highly-educated and hard-working Jewish populations help create jobs and give the governments the added insights, creativity, industriousness, and sophistication to help the countries get on a world-class footing.

It's no surprise that the inquisition and subsequent expulsion from Portugal and Spain of their Jewish populations, their economies did not do well.

By contrast, the typical scenario of Muslims emigrating to Europe is generally one of dysfunctional, low-educated populations, high crime rates, packed prisons, prison Da'wah -- meaning Islamic propaganda proselytizing of the most violently inclined prisoners.

Generally, Muslim populations eat up whatever monies Western governments have in their coffers for welfare payments to Muslims who have either no or low employment skills, do not want to assimilate into the fabric of the country, and essentially cause the country to become as dysfunctional and fractured as many of the Middle Eastern countries from which they come.

Muslims have made no secret of their long-held desire and demands to get Spain back to the Muslims -- because Islamic law holds that once the Muslims occupy an area -- then it is always theirs, regardless of who is actually there.


Patricia Martinez (63)
Sunday February 23, 2014, 8:40 am

Those are excellent points, Beth S.

If I may add that when Muslims get control, and it would not be without the spilling of enormous amounts of the citizens' blood of the countries which they have come to occupy all over the world, the force the sharia dictate of making the native populations pay Jizya -- or oppressive amounts of protection money.

Not only is this "tax" so oppressive that it drives the natives into dire poverty, but the non-Muslims must submit to horribly oppressive and humiliating laws of dhimmitude, which are many. Some of these laws are that dhimmies

- cannot dress as well as the Muslims,

- they have to walk on the other side of the street,

- their churches and synagogues must be lower and much more humble than the mosques.

-They are not allowed to repair old churches and synagogues or build new ones.

-In the days of horses, Christians and Jews were not allowed to ride them, because then they would be sitting "higher" than the Muslims.

I'm sure with modern technology and transportation, sharia-enforcers will find newer and meaner ways to make non-Muslims' lives hell.

By the way, those non-Muslims who do not submit to sharia (Islam = submission) are killed.

In any way, shape or form, Islamic control is a horrible thing. I hope the Portuguese and Spanish hold firm with a big, fat NO to Muslim invader-encroachers.


pam w (139)
Sunday February 23, 2014, 8:50 am
And then what? Demanding REPARATIONS?

Maggie Kearns (7)
Sunday February 23, 2014, 9:15 am
Thanks Alexa! Comparing genocide to exile is appalling!

Justin Vale (13)
Sunday February 23, 2014, 10:45 am
spain had always had a huge population of muslims.
they ruled spain for 400 years, a lot never left.

. (0)
Sunday February 23, 2014, 11:28 am
It's incredible how Muslims will twist history as long they are the victioms.

Justin Vale (13)
Sunday February 23, 2014, 12:03 pm
there used to be a lot of muslim sharing with us here.
i can see why they're gone.
how are we ever gonna know what makes them tick if we don't talk with them. how can we know what irks them if they are not here to tell us?
too much hatred on both sides. i use to come here in the early 2000's and spend the nite chatting with them. now i can't find a muslim here even if i offer to buy them.

Alexa R (319)
Sunday February 23, 2014, 12:25 pm
One explanation Justin, is that there is a global religious revival, Islam included.

If you see the photos of women in Egypt, Syria, ME and even UK in graduation shots you'll notice that whereas no women used to wear headgear around 10-20 years ago, the majority now do .. This is Nonie Darwish, a lady from Syria who herself graduated in the ME and is speaking about the Islamic religious revival. See the link below:

Nonie Darwish

Beth S (330)
Sunday February 23, 2014, 1:03 pm

I just want to say, for the record, that I doubt that anyone here "hates" Muslims, per se. What many of us find compelling is the need to "out" Islam, the ideology. (The religious components such as wudu and other rituals are irrelevant.)

There have been a number of instances in which Muslims have disagreed with us, and I believe it was mostly in good faith, in the sense that they'd been taught to believe what actually ran contrary to the "perfect word of Allah", the Qur'an. Many of these people genuinely didn't know what kind of awful things their own religious ideology taught/contained.

For the Muslims, one common rallying point was anti-Zionism which in *most* cases was synonymous with anti-Semitism, as it is with the vast majority -- though not all -- of people in the Islamic world, as the Qur'an is chock-full of really vile things to say about Jews (Christians and other non-Muslims).

Well it so happens that a number of non-Muslims took the time to read the Qur'an and many of the most authoritative Hadiths, and I think many of the Muslims were horrified and deeply embarrassed that they not only did not know this stuff, but that it was so out of synch with the values of Western society that these Muslims absorbed to a great extent, and that they had been lied to by their culture and religious figures.

I don't think any of us have been hateful to them, because we know that most of them have been duped. All of us also have friends and acquaintances and even relatives (me) who are Muslim and who are good people, who we like and are on good terms with.

It's important to remember though, that once you know what the Qur'an commands of its believers/followers, that Muslims can be good people, but truly devout and "good" Muslims cannot be good people in the sense that we understand it, by the value of the Golden Rule.

federico b (47)
Sunday February 23, 2014, 1:49 pm
Grazie per la condivisione Alexa!

Lynn G (185)
Sunday February 23, 2014, 3:20 pm
The end of the article says it all:

"Jose Ribeiro e Castro, a Portuguese lawmaker who drafted Portugal's law of return for Sephardic Jews, puts it this way: "Persecution of Jews was just that, while what happened with the Arabs was part of a conflict. There is no basis for comparison."

I can't add much to that concise evaluation of this crisis. It's oranges vs. comparison.

Lynn G (185)
Sunday February 23, 2014, 3:21 pm
By the way, thanks Alexa, for this informative and very interesting article. :-)

Stan B (123)
Sunday February 23, 2014, 8:51 pm
Interesting article thanks, Alexa. The Spanish aren't loco. They aren't going to let this rabble back in.

Monday February 24, 2014, 5:20 am
The Muslims that went to Spain where imperialistic invaders who before that had invaded and occupied the whole of North Africa and most of Asia Minor. The Jews where immigrants. Spot the difference!

Gillian M (218)
Monday February 24, 2014, 12:08 pm
Justin, NY is still stuffed with Muslims, many of whom are terrorists. Just go to the mosque that they are building as close to the site of the Twin Towers as they can get. The trouble is that many of us know exactly what many of them want and it is the conversion of America to Sharia Law.

I am fed up with qualification of not being anti-Muslim because it is perfectly acceptable to insult Jews and Israelis and call them names or say all but so many object if one says Muslims!


Jennifer Ward (40)
Monday February 24, 2014, 12:20 pm
I'm planning on going to Ireland to claim my land rights to Ulster which the English stole from my Sept (clan) in the early 1600s. As my Irish roots go back to prehistory and my bloodline has been proven by DNA testing, my right of return and 400+ years of rent and reparations from the UK government should be forthcoming without any opposition (well maybe not)

Howard Crosse (21)
Monday February 24, 2014, 12:38 pm
As Phyllis points out the ramifications of this could be pretty widely felt if it were considered to set a precedent that were adopted widely. Ahead of this as a citizen of any EU country (such as Spain) has the right to live and work in any other EU member country. Thus any decision made by Spain could have an effect across the whole EU from the perspective of migration

David E (139)
Monday February 24, 2014, 12:48 pm
So true!!! Jose Ribeiro e Castro, a Portuguese lawmaker who drafted Portugal's law of return for Sephardic Jews, puts it this way: "Persecution of Jews was just that, while what happened with the Arabs was part of a conflict. There is no basis for comparison."

Sarah G (109)
Monday February 24, 2014, 1:13 pm
Where are Ferdinand & Isabella when we need them????

Amy L (112)
Monday February 24, 2014, 1:49 pm
I'm sorry but I love Spain - it's a beautiful country and the people are beautiful and cool. Let the Muslims invade and they will destroy it overnight. I seriously doubt they would allow non-Muslims to live in peace. Look at poor Mr. Rigby in England. He was walking down the street, minding his own business and out of the blue attacked and murdered by Muslim extremist. No thanks - no one is interested in allowing Muslims to occupy Spain. I can't imagine it would do wonders for the Spanish economy or psyche.

ewoud k (68)
Monday February 24, 2014, 2:10 pm
Even when on first sight this MIGHT (maybe etc) sound just, where do we stop after centuries of migrations on the European continent? And where do we go when we do the same for other areas?

On second thought this isn't such a good idea at all.....

Vlasta M (7)
Monday February 24, 2014, 2:10 pm
70% of all prisoners in France are Muslims, which is & fold higher rate of crime than 10% Muslims in France. Same in all European countries where Muslims were allowed to immigrate. Those who had studied Islam and read Koran ( know that Mohamed was a pedophile, polygamist,l rapist, looter, misogynist and murderer, who in any decent society would be convicted of his crimes, and not emulated by 1,640 millions of Muslims as "the most perfect human being who ever lived". When you have a criminal role model, Muslims who number 110 TIMES more then Jews (1,640 millions Muslims world wide vs 14 millions of Jews)), will be filling prisons wherever they move. Memorization of the hateful verses of Koran incited violence and terrorism. We all need to become jihads-busters and tell the truth about supremacist ideology of Islam that does not belong to any society that respects liberty, justice and human rights!

. (0)
Monday February 24, 2014, 4:47 pm
Spain can no more afford to repatriate and compensate any more than Israel can. Idiotic idea.

Julie Botsch (12)
Monday February 24, 2014, 4:52 pm
Whoa! Here are a few responses to the above comments:

--The numbers are simply irrelevant. If the Muslim community has a real claim, they should receive 'right of return' regarding the country of Spain. (I am uncertain as to how the Jewish community being smaller than the Muslim community is somehow a basis for denying Muslims a particular right or privilege.)

--The Muslim community is not jealous of the Jewish community. The Muslim community simply utilizes their cases as legal precedents.

--The Muslim community does have a legitimate case here. The last expulsion of Muslims was... a HUNDRED years after the war. Such was based on discrimination and bigotry -- not the removal of colonizers. Such was stated in the article. Please read carefully and completely!

Julie Botsch (12)
Monday February 24, 2014, 5:15 pm
-- The Bible states many negative things about the Jewish people as well. (Remember how Jewish brothers sold their own younger sibling into slavery... or how in one Jewish family a brother raped his sister... or the number of instances of domestic violence against Jewish women in the Bible... etc.) Such does not reflect good family values -- for any people! The book does not present the Jewish people in a good light.

--The Bible contains many passages that are both violent and bloody. In fact, the Bible was a book utilized in my Violence and Literature course. How can Jewish people and/or Christians point at the Qur'an as a violent book when both view the Bible as Holy Scripture? Such is indecent. The Bible has more violent passages than the Qur'an.

--Isn't the Golden Rule to treat people as one would like to be treated? I doubt the people speaking here would want any people or community to view them in such a negative manner. To all treat with Love, Kindness, Compassion, Understanding, Peace, and Harmony.

Julie Botsch (12)
Monday February 24, 2014, 6:14 pm
--To clarify... 'right of return' is NOT about Muslims occupying Spain. It's about righting a past wrong.

--The Jewish community has not contributed to the fabric of the Western world anymore than that of the Muslim community. The Arab world has contributed the following: Algebra; Arabic words such as lasso, alcohol, alchemy, alkali, zenith, and/or nadir; medical discoveries such as pulmonary circulation; the introduction of peach and apricot trees to Europe; the cultivation of coffee, cotton, and sugar to Europe; aromatherapy; the concept of dried fruit such as figs and dates; etc...

--In the US, the majority of Arab Muslims are college-educated and hold professional jobs such as that of doctor, lawyer, engineer, professor, etc... In fact, more Jewish people take out college loans and/or sign up for federal financial aid to pay for college than Arab Muslims. The Arab Muslim community in the US is actually quite affluent. So why all the negativity?


Julie Botsch (12)
Monday February 24, 2014, 6:24 pm
As a side note.. if it is true that in France 70 percent of the prison population comes out of 10 percent of the overall population, what you have is major racism... perhaps even apartheid. Surely one cannot believe that such is just a reflection that one demographic is simply more violent and/or criminal than all the other demographics/populations in a country.

Such a situation reminds one of racial dynamics of the US in regard to black populations.

Julie Botsch (12)
Monday February 24, 2014, 6:38 pm
Lastly... up until 1992, it was illegal to practice Judaism in Spain. In fact, I was in Spain in 1992. I remember asking why such was so. The Jewish community had nothing nice to say about Spain ...and how the country had denied them citizenship, the right to practice their religion legally, the right to own land in Spain, and so forth. Yet the moment that they receive citizenship in 2010s... what do they do? They express happiness that Spain is denying another group of people the very same rights for which they fought for almost 20 years. What is going on here?

John B (185)
Monday February 24, 2014, 6:47 pm
Thanks Alexa for the link to the very interesting article by Mr. Kern. This is paragraph expresses my take on the issue.
"But historians point out that the Jewish presence in Spain predates the arrival of Christianity in the country and that their expulsion was a matter of bigotry. By contrast, the Muslims in Spain were colonial occupiers who called the territory Al-Andalus and imposed Arabic as the official language. Historians say their expulsion was a matter of decolonization.
Read and noted.

Patricia Martinez (63)
Monday February 24, 2014, 7:29 pm

While Spain is not without its economic problems, it is a peaceful, beautiful country, respecting of all religions, tolerant, recognizing gay marriages and so on. It has flowered as a democracy and it was a long time coming.

The balance of Muslims in the country, seeking to take it back as the long lost Islamic colony of Al-Andalus, will bring with it all the pathological elements of Islam, the totalitarianism, supremacism, brutality of sharia, warring factions, if not between Muslim and non-Muslim, then between Sunni and Shia and many permutations.

Keep the West in the West's hands. Let the Muslims make a home in any of the 57 (fifty seven) Islamic countries in the world. Do we really need any more Islamic countries in the world?

Give Muslims the right to come back and take over and make everyone suffer is what will happen at a Muslim right of return. Heaven forbid.


Julie Botsch (12)
Monday February 24, 2014, 7:54 pm
The article also stated: the Muslim king surrendered in 1492. The final expulsions began in 1609. What does such have to do with colonizers, occupiers, empire builders, imperialists, etc...

From 1609 until 1614, Muslims were forced to leave Spain for North Africa. Such was an expulsion based on religious intolerance... and nothing else.

Julie Botsch (12)
Monday February 24, 2014, 8:14 pm
Hello? Has anyone here studied the Renaissance? Such was my major in college. What happened when Ferdinand and Isabelle ruled Spain? The Spanish Inquisition.

There was no return to peace, harmony, and Christian grace. Does no one realize that the Christian Reconquest was a bloody and violent nightmare of an event. Hundreds of thousands of people died!!!

The Muslim king was less violent to people -- Christians, Jews, and Muslims alike. That is than the Catholic rulers that took over. Does no one remember history? How can anyone say in good conscience that the Muslims who left were simply being removed because of their past history as occupiers?

According to the paperwork of the Spanish Inquisition, much was due to religious intolerance!!!

Alexa R (319)
Monday February 24, 2014, 9:10 pm
Julie, though we obviously appreciate your opposing, impatient comments for not being mindlessly antisemitic, and while it is great that you're an expert on the Renaissance and nice that you're at least trying to read history and this article closely - unfortunately you could not be more wrong in your one-sided judgement of the Spanish.

The gap you're talking about, perhaps even a little longer than 100 years, proves that the Spaniards were quite the opposite of the bigots you judged them to be. From the first suicide bomber that arrived in Spain until the Spanish finally figured that these supposed freedom fighters of the 'religion of peace' are nothing more than tyrant colonisers, who impose violations of human rights on all, specially on women and non-Muslims. If you believe the Spanish Inquisition to have been cruel and violent, you've obviously never looked at the other side of the coin, despite the many examples both in history and before your eyes as we speak in Syria.

It took the Spanish over a hundred years of oppression before they had the guts to firmly enough say, 'enough, no more. We will no longer put up with a deceitful invader, we've been deceived and violated long enough. This is not the religion of peace we've been duped to believe. There is no freedom under Islam. We want our freedoms and dignity back, and we will take any steps necessary to ensure our future generations live free from this cult.'

May the dear Syrians follow the example of the Spaniards before 100 years of cruel violence and oppression had passed ..


Marie W (67)
Monday February 24, 2014, 9:14 pm
Like inviting robbers to your house.

Alexa R (319)
Monday February 24, 2014, 9:26 pm
Ewoud, I could not possibly disagree with you more ..

I think it is a great moment in history when past wrongs are set straight. However, the key is that it must have been a past wrong, not an imaginary wrong. Which, I admit, is not always that easy for some to judge. Some seem to only listen to whoever throws the biggest pity party. Luckily, the Spanish seemed to have had thought this through thoroughly, took all factors into account and thus came to an accurate judgement in correcting a genuine past wrong.

Boy oh boy, imagine the day when most of Northern Africa, parts of Eastern Europe, parts of Asia and the ME would have the guts to put past wrongs right, surrender or even return the invaded countries back .. when these are decolonised ..

Every human being has the right to live free, free from oppression, free and equal. No human being has the right to oppress others .. that's not freedom nor equality.

Billie C (2)
Monday February 24, 2014, 10:34 pm
muslims just want another country to ruin. they need to be kept in their lands and not let out.
that's why spain had to remove them once before. history tells us what muslims are and will do if they are not controlled.

Jay S (116)
Tuesday February 25, 2014, 1:48 am
The big difference between the Jews and Muslims in Spain is that the Jews were peaceful immigrants who contributed a lot to Spanish society (and were treated well under many Spanish rulers until Isabel and Fernando whose one advisor on expelling Jews was a Jew himself). Muslims were invaders and conquerors who ruled with Sharia law forcing circumcision, destroying or closing churches (just try to find a church that predates the reconquest by the Spanish of their homeland - you'll have a very hard time to find one, except for those confiscated and used as mosques), selling bishoprics, outlawing all outward signs of religion for Jews and Christians, including bells, forcing Jews and Christians to wear special clothing (which gave Hitler the idea, who, btw, loved Islam), killed anyone who criticized or left Islam, ridiculed priests in public, charged a special tax on nonmuslims and enslaved tens of thousands of nonmuslims.

So given this difference, which to point out will get you labelled "islamophobic", which is just another word for "fear of truth". Muslims have never and will never apologize for their 1400 years of conquest, enslavement (all condoned by Allah), mass murder (80million in India alone during their conquest), intolerance and brutality. It is all commanded and smile upon by their demonic old Arab pagan deity, Allah (the name of the chief pagan deity before Mohammed borrowed the name).

It is Muslims who should have to pay reparations for all the centuries of repression, murder, oppression and forced occupation of Spanish lands. But with islam ruling the world, the media and our leaders today that will never happen. Sadly

Hilary S (65)
Tuesday February 25, 2014, 1:53 am
soon it'll be hard ti find a country where muslims don't claim 'right of return', and while i'm never a fan of conspiracy theories, too many imams have been proclaiming islam to be the true faith (whatever that may mean) for too long, and stirring their flocks to kill the infidels (that's us folks).

there's no muslims in tonga. for some reason they aren't welcome there.

Julie Botsch (12)
Tuesday February 25, 2014, 6:24 am
What? Seriously?:) None of my comments have been made in an impatient fashion. Think more on the lines of detached irony. It's difficult to believe that Jewish people would utilize the same hate language from the Holocaust ... that is against the Muslim community.

I am not anti-semitic. (Though attacking me personally does show a lack of maturity. In the future, please debate with the facts. That is minus the personal attacks.)

I am NOT judging the people of Spain. I simply am presenting the facts as they are. I simply DO NOT like hate language.

The language being utilized against the Muslim community here is simply that ...hate language. I am a civil rights activist. I am a human rights advocate. I believe in debating issues -- not spewing forth hate language against ANY community.

Howard Crosse (21)
Tuesday February 25, 2014, 6:51 am
Putting aside any of the other arguments that might apply here it should be understood that whilst Spain is a sovereign country it is a full member of the EU. Whilst the EU isn't quite a federal state, arguably it is heading that way, member countries have to be mindful of the views of their fellows.
Citizens of any EU country (I am assuming that the intention would be to grant these people Spanish citizenship) have the right to live and work in any EU country, and in some instances claim social benefits there. This has already seen large movements of people across the EU. It is hard to verify exact numbers, as there are no border controls, but it is reported that after joining the EU the population of Poland dropped by 2 million people and that an estimated 1 million of these moved to the UK (at first some other countries maintained temporary border controls). This, and the reported potential move of millions of people from Romania and Bulgaria to the UK (which doesn't seem to have materialised) has caused increased sensitivity toward potential large scale immigration across many countries. Spain would have to be mindful of this as would the governments of other potential host nations who would no doubt make their views clear to Madrid. I am not arguing in favour or against migration, that is a matter for a different time, but the reality is that people within the EU are sensitised to this matter and potential large scale migration has to be handled very carefully.

Julie Botsch (12)
Tuesday February 25, 2014, 8:59 am
38 percent of Europe is Muslim. Yes, that is a fact. The Islamic world is already a part of the EU. Sensitivity in such matters should already be a norm.

Patricia Martinez (63)
Tuesday February 25, 2014, 9:05 am


Were you as upset by the "hate" language when it was used against Jews and for Israel-bashing, or is you concern for the followers of the religion of hate itself, Islam?

In fact, if one looks at Islamic texts held holy, and the horrendous massacres done by Muslims who did so to advance the cause of Islam, the source of the hate is from the Koran itself and the followers who have perpetrated their sick beliefs on countries and societies around the globe.

I certainly wouldn't say to whitewash Spain or that the Spanish were blameless in the Inquisition and expulsion and hatred towards non-Catholics in the time-period of which you are speaking. Many of them were horrific, their policies inhumane.

But let me give you a little perspective check here:

More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined.

Spain no longer has an Inquisition. It is a civil country, with a great amount of tolerance.

That tolerance will be unquestionably jeopardized if Islam takes control. Examples of this abound around the world today. It doesn't take a prophet to understand this. It just takes objectivity and knowledge of the manifold bloody conflicts NOW taking place wherever there is a critical mass of Muslims against a non-Muslim majority.

Will be happy to supply many sources for this horribly unfortunate fact. Remember, that in Islam, the hate emanates from itself.

Howard Crosse (21)
Tuesday February 25, 2014, 9:55 am
Religion is not the principle issue in Europe Julie. By far the majority of those coming to the UK from Poland for instance are Christian. The principle problems in the UK, and this is repeated across Europe, see Golden Dawn in Greece for an example, has grown out of the economic crisis, which has hit some European countries harder than others. The most commonly identified issue is the perception that immigrants are motivated by economic concerns and move to other countries taking the jobs of the indigenous population. Religion doesn't feature large in this consideration nor does race, it is simply body count.

Howard Crosse (21)
Tuesday February 25, 2014, 10:07 am
Incidentally the two predominant religions in Europe (the EU Zone) are Catholic, 38% and Protestant 12%. The total identified as worshipping Islam, including Muslims, is 2%.

Julie Botsch (12)
Tuesday February 25, 2014, 10:18 am
OK here it is:

None of these facts are even true. And Wikipedia is not a reliable resource.

If religion is not an issue, then why refer to them as Muslim? Why not refer to them as Middle Eastern, Arab, Persian, and/or African?

BTW -- Hitler was not a fan of Islam.

Referring to a religion as a cult is simply rude.

Many religious people believe that their religion is the true faith. Judaism and Christianity would be two such religions.

The percentage of people who are Protestant in the EU is largely than 12 percent.

The list goes on and on.


Cynthia W (2)
Tuesday February 25, 2014, 10:32 am
Wow. Lots of intolerant and elitist people here. Makes me sad.

Howard Crosse (21)
Tuesday February 25, 2014, 10:48 am
The Official website of the European Union is - it has a huge variety of facts and figures regarding The Union.

Patricia Martinez (63)
Tuesday February 25, 2014, 11:50 am


You make some very interesting assertions that could even be called desultory and unsubstantiated. For example, you state that “none of these facts are true. And Wikipedia is not a reliable source [for the facts given about the Inquistion].”

Well, if you make such assertions, you need to be able to back it up with evidence. If you actually did look at the Wikipedia page, you would see meticulous tables spelling out the victims of the Inquisition. You would also note that the entire article is 111-item bibliography that gives references for what is in the article.

Please tell us specifically which items in the article you disagree with and give us specific references that you believe come from reliable sources.

To make such an unsubstantiated claim could very well mean you have nothing credible to contradict the claim.


Vlasta M (7)
Tuesday February 25, 2014, 12:26 pm
Hitler was a fan of Islam and Mohamed, whose violent and sneaky conquest method the Fuhrer greatly admired. That is why Hitler allowed the Mufti of Jerusalem organize 2 SS divisions recruited from Bosnian Muslim farmers who were promised care for their families if the joined the Nazis. Mufti was the highest ranking Nazi war criminal whom the British and French let go to Cairo, Egypt to start his genocidal campaign against the Jews that continues today.

Both Islam and Nazism are Jew hating supremacist ideology, except that Islam also condones pedophilia, polygamy, misogyny, rape, looting and murder. Hitler was rather normal sexually in comparison with the pedophile polygamist and child molester, Mohammed

Julie Botsch (12)
Tuesday February 25, 2014, 12:41 pm
OK -- I doubt that anyone would call my comments desultory and/or unsubstantiated. So let's not get carried away now.

Though most of my comments are validated through research by: The Pew Research Foundation, The State Department, Encyclopedia Britannica, etc...

By the way, I am not debating in a binary manner. I am simply discussing the issue in an analog format. OK.

Julie Botsch (12)
Tuesday February 25, 2014, 1:15 pm
OK -- one of my expertise is WWII and the Holocaust. So this is right up my alley.:) I can safely state that Hitler was NOT an admirer of Islam.

Though Hitler DID admire much of the US colonization of the Native American people. In fact, many of his policies reflect two American institutions. The Meat Industry. The American colonization of the Native Americans. (Many people have written about the parallels of the attempted genocide of the Native Americans and the genocidal attempt of certain European populations during WWII.)

Actually, the violence in the Balkans is attributed to the Catholic Church. Such is often referred to as the Vatican Holocaust. The Pope at the time oversaw camps in the Balkans. Such was not led by the Mufti of Egypt. I'm pretty sure of this.

Another neat fact is: The Muslim community rescued more Jewish people in the Middle East and the Balkans than Christians did in Europe during the war. In fact, Albania (a Muslim country) had a larger percentage of Jewish people after the war than before. Such a statistic was unheard of in Europe at the time. (So I guess no real attempt at genocide... that is by the Muslim populations in the Middle East against the Jewish people.)

Also, Egypt is a country that Jewish people travel in and out of all the time without worry. I lived in Egypt for a while. Jewish people vacationed there all the time. So perhaps you have Egypt confused with another country.

Julie Botsch (12)
Tuesday February 25, 2014, 1:18 pm
Just to clarify my background is: genocidal studies, the Holocaust, human rights, social reform, civil rights, peace advocacy, etc...

Julie Botsch (12)
Tuesday February 25, 2014, 1:24 pm
Here is a link in regards to Albania and the Muslim underground railroad that saved the lives of many Jewish people during the war. Such also has been recognized by Yad Vashem.


Julie Botsch (12)
Tuesday February 25, 2014, 1:36 pm
Remember though the Jewish population went from 200 to 2000, thousands more were moved through Albania to Italy ...and eventually out of Europe. Even Albert Einstein was assisted by the Muslim people of Albania during the war!

Patricia Martinez (63)
Tuesday February 25, 2014, 1:52 pm

First, Julie, you seem to have strayed far afield from the subject at hand, which is about the "Muslim Right of Return to Spain."

How is it that you came to throw Hitler into this discussion?


Julie Botsch (12)
Tuesday February 25, 2014, 1:54 pm
Here is a link regarding the Vatican Holocaust:

There are some documentaries as well.

Patricia Martinez (63)
Tuesday February 25, 2014, 2:00 pm


Same question and issue: you seem to have strayed far afield from the subject at hand, which is about the "Muslim Right of Return to Spain."

How is it that you came to throw Hitler into this discussion? How is this relevant?


Julie Botsch (12)
Tuesday February 25, 2014, 2:04 pm
hmmm... check out the comments made by Vlasta m. (and a few others like Rob and Jay B.)

The responses should be read in a holistic manner. That is versus a point-to-point one.


Julie Botsch (12)
Tuesday February 25, 2014, 2:05 pm
...such as to why I referenced Hitler and the war.

Patricia Martinez (63)
Tuesday February 25, 2014, 2:13 pm

I don't see where Rob and Jay mentioned Hitler.

Julie Botsch (12)
Tuesday February 25, 2014, 3:29 pm
In regard to the Muslim Right of Return...

--the Muslim community does have a right to petition for citizenship with regard to the descendants of the survivors of the Spanish Inquisition and the expulsions.

--they do have a right to petition with regard to reparations for such violations of human rights as well.

(Now enough has been said on the subject.)

Patricia Martinez (63)
Tuesday February 25, 2014, 3:44 pm

Much better. Thanks, Julie.


Alexa R (319)
Tuesday February 25, 2014, 10:42 pm
Unfortunately Julie, once more you could not be more wrong in your passionate defence of Islam and your wrong judgement of Muslim Albanians .. Once more we obviously appreciate all about you what we said previously ..

If your read history, closely, carefully, Muslim Albanians did not save Jews because of Islam, but in spite of Islam. The ancient Albanian custom of BESA, which predates Islam considerably (Albanians are one of the oldest civilisations) the custom of BESA was the driving force behind the behaviour of the Muslim Albanians to save Jews. Or like a US Muslim friend of mine likes to say, "in order to be a good person one cannot be a good Muslim". Then again, perhaps this history is outside your remit of Renaissance, WWi and WWII ..

If the shoe fits, wear it - no need for another pity party - specially on a thread like this one where everyone has been exemplary in kindheartedness, civility and goodwill. As you have even said yourself, enough had been said on this subject ..

Alexa R (319)
Tuesday February 25, 2014, 10:46 pm
hypocrite (munafiq)

From my US Muslim friend:

* for the bullet item from the above link: "close friends", I think he meant to write 5:51 instead of 5:52, though there are Qur'ans with slightly different verse numbers, like off by +/- one verse

The bottom line: according to Islamic doctrine, any genuinely decent person who considers themselves to be Muslim is in fact
not one but a hypocrite (munafiq)

P. L. Neola (21)
Wednesday February 26, 2014, 1:53 am
"But historians point out that the Jewish presence in Spain predates the arrival of Christianity in the country and that their expulsion was a matter of bigotry. By contrast, the Muslims in Spain were colonial occupiers who called the territory Al-Andalus and imposed Arabic as the official language. Historians say their expulsion was a matter of decolonization."

That sums it up.

Islam has become so belligerent and demanding nowadays. I, a Christian, am learning to loath the ideology.


Vlasta M (7)
Thursday February 27, 2014, 9:03 am
Julie clearly either does not know how to do proper historical research or she is deliberately denying the link of Islam-and the Muslim leaders, with the Nazi ideology and Nazi past in WWII.

Julie may be just another Muslim Brother employing taqiyya,- Islam principle of lying for Islam!, just as Barack Hussein Obama does in order to white wash Islam and its Nazi-like imperialist past. Anybody should be able to see this clear link of Islamic supremacist ideology of Caliphate and Third Reich of Hitler.

Süheyla C (234)
Thursday February 27, 2014, 11:08 am

Vlasta M (7)
Friday February 28, 2014, 5:04 am
Jews if they move back to Spain will take care of their people rather than living on the Spanish dole.

There are only 14 million Jews in the world, compared with 1,640[ millions of Muslims (that is 120 times more Muslims than Jews!). Yet, Jews account for over 20% of all Nobel prizes in Science compared to ONE for Muslims! Israel is a start up nation economically thriving, while 57 Muslim majority cases are basket cases of corrupt, dysfunctional dictators, wanting to annihilate Israel.

Islam thrived and spread by sward and looting what others were acvh
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