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Mob Torches Dozens of Pakistani Christian Homes

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- 1929 days ago -
Hundreds of people in eastern Pakistan rampaged through a Christian neighborhood Saturday, torching dozens of homes after hearing reports that a Christian man had committed blasphemy against Islam's prophet.

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pam w (139)
Saturday March 9, 2013, 3:42 pm
Violent, thuggish, primitive people.....using a religion as the EXCUSE to perpetrate horror on others.

"Islam....the religion of peace."

Rahman Q (76)
Saturday March 9, 2013, 3:44 pm
LAHORE, Pakistan (AP) — Hundreds of people in eastern Pakistan rampaged through a Christian neighborhood Saturday, torching dozens of homes after hearing reports that a Christian man had committed blasphemy against Islam's prophet.

Blasphemy is a serious crime in Pakistan that can carry the death penalty but sometimes outraged residents exact their own retribution for perceived insults of Islam's Prophet Muhammad. Pakistan is overwhelmingly Sunni Muslim and people of other faiths, including the nation's small Christian community, are often viewed with suspicion.

The incident started Friday when a young Muslim man accused a Christian man of committing blasphemy by making offensive comments about the prophet, according to Multan Khan, a senior police officer in Lahore.

A large crowd from a nearby mosque went to the Christian man's home on Friday night, said Khan. Police registered a blasphemy case against the man after the crowd gathered and demanded action, the officer said.

Fearing for their safety, hundreds of Christian families fled the area overnight.

Khan said the mob returned on Saturday and began ransacking Christian homes and setting them ablaze. He said no one in the Christian community was hurt, but several policemen were injured when they were hit with stones as they tried to keep the crowd from storming the area.

But Akram Gill, a local bishop in the Lahore Christian community said the incident had more to do with personal enmity between two men — one Christian and one Muslim — than blasphemy. He said the men got into a brawl after drinking late one night, and in the morning the Muslim man made up the blasphemy story as payback.

He said the Christian community handed over to police the accused man, identified by police and Gill as Sawan Masih, when police came to the neighborhood to investigate. Then the Christians all locked up their houses and went to relatives in other areas. He said the mob was armed with hammers and steel rods and broke into houses, ransacked two churches and burned Bibles and crosses.

"Poor people were living here. They have lost all of their belongings," he said. "Where can they go now?"

The scene was chaotic. An Associated Press reporter said roughly 150 homes were torched. One man was seen carrying a dog and some puppies from a burning house. Refrigerators, washing and sewing machines, cooking pots, beds and other household goods were ripped from homes, smashed and burned in the streets.

One Christian couple from the neighborhood said they went to their Muslim neighbors' house on Friday night after people came looking for the Christian man accused of blasphemy. Ishaq Masih said the Muslim neighbors sheltered the couple for the night and then gave them money to leave the area in the morning.

After the mob dissipated, residents began to slowly return to their burned-out homes.

"They have burnt each and every thing in my whole house. Nothing is left here. I don't know why this happened," said Samina Riaz. "Now we don't have even enough to eat."

Such accusations of blasphemy in Pakistan can prompt huge crowds to take the law into their own hands. Once an accusation is made it's extremely difficult to get it reversed, partly because law enforcement officials do not want to be seen as being soft on blasphemers.

Two prominent politicians were assassinated in 2011 for urging reform of the law. The killer of one of the politicians was hailed as a hero, and lawyers at his legal appearances showered him with rose petals.

According to Human Rights Watch, there are at least 16 people on death row for blasphemy and another 20 are serving life sentences.

Last year there was a rare reversal of a blasphemy case. A teenage Christian girl with suspected mental disabilities was accused of burning pages of the Quran. But she was later released after a huge domestic and international outcry about her treatment. A local cleric where she lived was arrested and accused of planting the pages in her bag to incriminate her, a rare example of the accuser facing legal consequences. However, he was later freed on bail.

While Muslims are frequently accused of blasphemy, members of Pakistan's small Christian community are especially vulnerable to the accusations, said the head of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, Zora Yusuf. Only in Christian cases will violent mobs punish the entire community for the perceived crime of one Christian.

She said often these blasphemy cases are personal grudges or disputes masquerading as religious fervor.

"Most of the time there are other motives involved," she said, such as scaring off Christian residents to grab their property.

The chief minister of Punjab province, Shahbaz Sharif, quickly condemned the incident and said investigators will use video footage of the rampage to identify the guilty and make arrests. He also said he was removing a number of high-ranking police officers.

But the Punjab government has frequently been criticized by human rights groups for essentially tolerating the type of religious extremism that often leads to this type of violence and the Sunni Muslim extremists who often whip up anti-minority sentiment.

"The Punjab provincial government has spent almost its entire 5-year term in office being in denial about threats to minorities," said Ali Dayan Hasan, Pakistan director of Human Rights watch in a statement.

Also on Saturday, four people were killed and 25 were wounded when a bomb exploded inside a mosque of the Sunni Barelvi sect in the northwestern city of Peshawar. The bomb was planted in a bookshelf inside the mosque and was detonated by remote control when noon prayers started, said senior police officer Imtiaz Khan.

Peshawar, the capital of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province, has been the site of several terrorist attacks in recent months. The city is surrounded by lawless tribal regions where al-Qaeda and Pakistani Taliban have hideouts.


Stan B (123)
Saturday March 9, 2013, 4:01 pm
Sadly, more of the same from these neanderthals. No minority is safe living in a Muslim country.
Thanks Rahman.

Rahman Q (76)
Saturday March 9, 2013, 4:10 pm
I wonder if non-Muslims acted this way in non-Muslim countries, what sort of world response would be generated. Obviously it would be on the news 24 /7 condemning Christianity or Judaism or whatever ideology perpetuated the act. Yet when Muslims do this based on the Qur'an and Sunna, no one says anything so as not to offend "the religion of peace". I thank the AP for posting this story on yahoo. We need more exposure of the true face of Islam.

Michela M (3964)
Saturday March 9, 2013, 4:29 pm

mar l ene dinkins (264)
Saturday March 9, 2013, 5:41 pm
noted !!!! thnx for hte article!!!!

Beth S (330)
Saturday March 9, 2013, 5:53 pm
Really no one is safe in Muslim countries or areas. The ideology is so focused on hurting people, that when there aren't any more of the "right" people or animals around, then they just have to hurt somebody, so it can be another sect, the other sex, pretty much ANY reason is enough for Muslims to go on rampages.

Patricia Martin (19)
Saturday March 9, 2013, 6:29 pm

You are right. This administration, the media and others would be choking to death, faces turning blue if Christians and Jews, etc., if this were the other way around.

Seems like the Muslims get the Academy Awards for pretend victims and making people eat it.

Rahman Q (76)
Saturday March 9, 2013, 6:42 pm
Great comments everyone. Beth, it is true that no one is really safe in Muslim countries. In Saudi Arabia for example, where Christianity is illegal and Islam is the only religion, I just read a Saudi government report that 23% of Saudi Arabian kids are raped, and mostly by family members. When there is nothing but Islam we see islam's vileness without excuse as Islam turns on itself. Islam devours the minds and souls of Muslims. It is for this reason Muslims commit such vile acts as raping children, slavery, raping women and men, animals, torture, terrorism and murder - their "perfect" example Muhammad did these things. In Saudi Arabia they can't pull the usual "terrorists come from poverty" excuse because that country has our oil money. The terrorism of their own innocent Muslim children shows without distraction the pure vileness of Islam. And now we have a clearer picture on why this Muslim mob acted so ravenously; they are followers of Islam. The "blasphemy" charge is just a cover.

Craig Zimmerman (86)
Saturday March 9, 2013, 7:43 pm
Is there no law and order in these countries or do they just let mobs run wild?

Giana P (398)
Saturday March 9, 2013, 10:26 pm
Really terrible religion, I can't fathom how they are spreading like vermin, causing destruction and ruin in their wake...

Madhu Pillai (22)
Saturday March 9, 2013, 10:42 pm
What a mockery of religion! The authorities are scared to take action for fear of being targeted by the extremists. They are everywhere, holding the world to ransom, waving their rifles in the air with religious fervor unmindful of the death and distruction they cause. It's total anarchy.

bob m (32)
Saturday March 9, 2013, 11:13 pm

this is not unusual regarding islam... it is part of the pattern of activity at the core .. it is a natural manifestation .. the natural response to Truth encoded in the quran. . as bacteria grow a certan way ... these commandments are obeyed as the sleeper they were intended... as the man of sin cannot but obey his flesh..because his will is not sufficient; he Must obey his master.

bob m (32)
Saturday March 9, 2013, 11:15 pm

Only the Grace of a Holy God can finally quench this fire.

reft h (66)
Sunday March 10, 2013, 12:00 am
Thanks Rahman for bringing this to our attention. Noted.

John J (0)
Sunday March 10, 2013, 1:38 am
Islam conceived and born under the auspices of Satan,sustained by thuggery thievery,murder and lies
The absence of any vestige of morality setting it apart from other faiths
when you worship evil you become evil

Jay S (116)
Sunday March 10, 2013, 3:45 am
"torching dozens of homes after hearing reports that a Christian man had committed blasphemy against Islam's prophet."

It's bad enough that these primitive bigots persecute and kill 'kafir' (the ugliest word in Islam used for non-Muslims) on a daily basis, but to go off into crazed violent rages just on rumor, makes it even more evil.

And the really sick thing is this is following the example of their ungodly 'prophet' who had people tortured and murdered for ridiculing his silly con game to pretend to be the next Jewish prophet (he wasn't even Jewish and didn't even know the name of the Jewish god!). This is not a perversion of Islam, as Muslims are so wont to claim, but a direct action in obedience to the commands of and in following the actions of their religion's inventor.

Religion of 'peace and tolerance'? Is not now, never has been and can never be without renouncing all the 109 verses of hate toward all non-Muslims in the qur'an, not counting the many, many more in the Sunnah. No other religion preaches such hate and violence against those who don't follow it. Islam is the only religion that does NOT teach the Golden Rule, except for other Muslims.

"Muhammed is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves." Qur’an 48:29

"Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: 'I will terrorize the
unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and
incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers
and toes." Qur'an 8.12

How can anyone be surprised at barbarous actions like these? What is surprising is that there aren't more of them.

Carola May (20)
Sunday March 10, 2013, 3:56 am
There are so many reports like this from this backward, hateful Islamic Republic of Pakistan. I read of the Christians and Hindus being daily persecuted and oppressed, with their girls being kidnapped, raped, forced to convert to this 'religion of peace and tolerance' then forced to 'marry' their rapist and become one of his 'wives' to spend the rest of her life as a slave, serving him and giving into his sexual debauchery on command - Allah commanded it, after all. Then the Pakistani courts rule in favour of the rapists, force the young women who have escaped to go back to their kidnappers, and tell them they are 'blessed to be forced into Islam'!

Where is the outrage in the western media and among our cowardly 'leaders'? But let one person threaten to burn the hateful Qur'an and they all scream in outrage, don't they? What a sick world. No wonder so many are losing faith in our institutions which do not protect us or stand up for what is right.

Thank you Rahman (one of the 4 names Mohammed used for his invented deity before he agreed to use the old pagan name of their chief god, Allah, the Moon God and God of War). With your Muslim background you must face a lot of threats for your own 'apostasy', I would fear.

Jaime Alves (52)
Sunday March 10, 2013, 6:51 am
Noted, Islam is a very sick religion, thanks Rahman.!

Gillian M (218)
Sunday March 10, 2013, 8:30 am
It wasn't that long ago an imam lied about a 14 year old girl with learning disabilites and, despite his admission, the Muslims attacked the family and the village. This happens regularly even without the "excuse" of blasphemy.

If this happened in a more civilised country then there would be riot police out to protect the village and some of the ring leaders may - Note May - be arrested and charged. Sadly, no Muslim controlled country is civilised and not one of them protects non-Muslims. And there will be no outcry, no sanction by the UN (too busy criticising Israel so as to keep attention away from their human rights abuses), nothing from any government. Let's face it, they are only Christians and it took years of abuses before even the Pope spoke out! What will it take to protect non-Muslims, even in their own countries?

P. L. Neola (21)
Sunday March 10, 2013, 8:36 am
Out of all the paragraphs, this one had a profound effect on me:

“One Christian couple from the neighborhood said they went to their Muslim neighbors' house on Friday night after people came looking for the Christian man accused of blasphemy. Ishaq Masih said the Muslim neighbors sheltered the couple for the night and then gave them money to leave the area in the morning.”

Remember all the Jewish families hidden in the attics and basements of German and other nationalities’ homes during WWII? Does the previous paragraph imply that we, the Christians and the Jews, will need to be hidden away for our survival? Is Islam more powerful than Nazism?

It really does seem like the “final days” written about in Revelations are here right now or very close to arriving in the next ten years for all Christians and Jews!

What truly is terrifying about this scenario is that, with global technology and GIS data bases, the authorities will be able to figure out which Muslim families are harboring Christian or Jewish refugee-fugitives by consumer costs. When a household of two eats like a family of three, four or five, the government will figure it out. It will be nearly impossible for families to take in and hide other individuals and families from Islamic authorities!!!


. (0)
Sunday March 10, 2013, 10:59 am
Certain passages reminded me of the Jews in Germany during the mid 1930's.

Melania Padilla (122)
Sunday March 10, 2013, 5:09 pm

Jaime Alves (52)
Monday March 11, 2013, 7:36 am
Islam is the religion of the DEVIL.!!

Gloria picchetti (304)
Monday March 11, 2013, 8:03 am
Why did #43 bother with this G-d forsaken place?

jan b (5)
Monday March 11, 2013, 8:38 am
If it isn't one country it's another. Recently, Saudi Arabia executed, by beheading, 45 Sri Lankan maids. Many of these female workers are subject to extreme abuse, rape and are beaten and assaulted by their employers, not paid the salary promised them, and have their passports confiscated so they cannot escape.

Alice C (1797)
Monday March 11, 2013, 12:35 pm
Noted ~ very sad for anyone, anywhere to endure this !

Birgit W (160)
Monday March 11, 2013, 1:45 pm
We have to stop hating each other just because of our religion.

Gene J (290)
Monday March 11, 2013, 1:51 pm
As always seems the case with Islam, all it takes is a rumor to start an enraged mob storming the streets, burning houses,cars AND bibles. Shouldn't we be demanding recompense? I mean, lord knows how many they kill every time a Koran is burned, accidentally or dropped on a floor. What is it with these people that makes them think this only goes one way? The way I read this story was that it had more to do with a personal dispute between the two men, so one crys wolf and the entire freaking nation goes on the rampage, again? Nauseating people, and I use the term lightly as I'm not sure they are really people at all, if I believed in devils, I'd say these were their offspring wearing human skin as disguise, because they are truly despicable human beings.

Billie C (2)
Monday March 11, 2013, 3:39 pm
non muslims need to be removed from muslim countries and all muslims from every country they have invaded need to be sent back. then wall off the entire area and let them rot. they can go back to killing each other.
they are not fit to live with others. nothing peaceful about any muslim. the world needs to stop letting these dogs terrorize the world. sorry that's an insult to dogs, vermin would be a better term.

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Monday March 11, 2013, 4:12 pm
I am going to get slammed for this, I know.
Muslims and other faiths have historically existed in peace, side-by-side, in many Muslim countries.
Not always, but often. There have been long periods of relative peace & quiet. How did you think those Christian communities, and communities of other faiths besides Muslim and Christian, got ESTABLISHED in those areas in the first place? Not by walking into a War Zone!
The Koran, like the Bible, has "war verses" and "peace verses". Just like members of other faiths, Muslims pick & choose which verses they are going to follow. We call it "cherry-picking" when it comes to the Bible.
Members of a Church I go to occasionally {altho I am an Atheist!}, meet with members of a Mosque in friendly exchanges. These good American Muslim folks choose to "cherry-pick" the "Peace Verses" in the Koran. There is room for lots of interpretation.
The ferocious Fundamentalism we see in Islam today, stems from a sect, Waha'abism, born in the early 20th century, that absorbed a kind of anti-Western Nationalism.
They chose the "war verses" {by the way, this is the way Scholars I read speak of those Koran verses}, and set about trying to convert all Muslims, with some success among Angry Young Men who because of various Economic reasons, are educated but can't find jobs. This they blame on the West {imposing our Economic system on the World - which we do!}.
When Western countries such as the US and UK make WAR on Islamic countries, this has the DIRECT RESULT OF INCREASING TERRORISM AND ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISM. Read any IN-DEPTH ANALYSIS of the News - this is far to big a subject for me to cover completely here!

Folks, you may not KNOW it - it is NOT IN THE NEWS - but, in effect, WE ARE AT WAR WITH PAKISTAN.
This is a BREEDING GROUND for Terrorism, the most crushing forms of Fundamentalism and Fanaticism, as well as Crime, Mob Rule, all sorts of Violence...

What happened in Iraq after the US invasion, the Sectarian violence, we are seeing HAPPEN ALL OVER AGAIN in Pakistan, and will see in other countries.... ARE seeing in other countries.
These are symptoms of WAR. Just because the Media aren't calling the Drone attacks on Pakistan, by the NAME of "War", THEY ARE STILL WAR.
Only with PEACE, and relative Economic Prosperity, will different Faiths AGAIN be living in quiet and harmony with each other, AS THEY DID BEFORE in several Muslim countries....

Please LOOK BEYOND THE SURFACE, things are NOT as SIMPLE as Propaganda will have you believe...
Please preserve the values of Care2, and use REASON...

Devon Leonar (54)
Tuesday March 12, 2013, 12:59 am
Extremism in All it's forms is dangerous...! It provides a fertile breeding ground for all manner of pain and suffering...... Hitler, the Ku Klux Klan, suicide bombers, and the list sadly goes on.... Religious extremism is so dark and controlling...a tragedy for all people.

Darren W (218)
Tuesday March 12, 2013, 1:45 am
Crazy. . . and it's not religion that's too blame. . . that's an easy cop-out. It's man's interpretation thereof.

Parvez Zuberi (7)
Tuesday March 12, 2013, 1:57 am
It is really very sad to see these unruly mob destroying the houses of minority Christine they should be punished and also take action against the police who were their as helpless spectators in fact it was land mafia who have maneuvered this unfortunate incident should also be taken to task

Phil P (94)
Tuesday March 12, 2013, 1:01 pm
(Following is from another source I find appropriate)

Muslims are not happy:

They’re not happy in Gaza
They're not happy in Egypt
They're not happy in Libya
They're not happy in Morocco
They're not happy in Iran
They're not happy in Iraq
They're not happy in Yemen
They're not happy in Afghanistan
They're not happy in Pakistan
They're not happy in Syria
They're not happy in Lebanon

So, where are they happy?
They're happy in Australia
They're happy in England
They're happy in France
They're happy in Italy
They're happy in Germany
They're happy in Sweden
They're happy in the USA & Canada
They're happy in Norway
They're happy in almost every country that is not Islamic!

And who do they blame?
Not Islam...
Not their leadership...
Not themselves...

And they want to change the countries they're happy in,
to be like the countries they came from, where they were unhappy.

Try to find logic in that !


tiffany t (142)
Tuesday March 12, 2013, 1:49 pm
Religious wars in radicals name, terrorist

Cousin It Addams (8)
Tuesday March 12, 2013, 2:19 pm
WHAT? you don't approve? but your tax dollars are funding this shit.

all amreeka will ask of pakistan is where to send the next check.

berny p (23)
Tuesday March 12, 2013, 2:28 pm
Most of the time there are other motives involved," she said, such as scaring off Christian residents to grab their property.


Lynne Buckley (0)
Tuesday March 12, 2013, 4:23 pm
Very disturbing.

. (0)
Tuesday March 12, 2013, 4:50 pm
I wish that there was a petition or something,I would sign it.If anyone knows of any actions that can be taken,please send me a message.I want to help,I want to do something,but I do not know what to do.Even if my actions only help a few,it is worht the effort to me.

janet f (29)
Tuesday March 12, 2013, 5:44 pm
Muslims are savages

Robert B (60)
Tuesday March 12, 2013, 6:06 pm
Ignorance breeds fear based religious beliefs. A strong spiritual mind is not affected by mere rumors and is not threatened by other beliefs or opinions. The world needs to stand up to any religious bullies.

Joy M (169)
Tuesday March 12, 2013, 7:09 pm
Very sad.. noted

Rahman Q (76)
Tuesday March 12, 2013, 7:29 pm
RE: Holly's comment -

for Holly and those of you who wish to continue your effort of speaking out against this craziness in Islam, please help to stop UN Resolution 16/18 which would criminalize what we are doing right now:

Lydia S (71)
Tuesday March 12, 2013, 8:31 pm
@ BMutiny who wrote: "I am going to get slammed for this, I know."

As you should ... your statements lack accuracy!

Muslims and other faiths have historically existed in peace, side-by-side, in many Muslim countries.
Not always, but often. There have been long periods of relative peace & quiet."

Yeah sure, after the "Infidels" were killed or threatened into submission and silenced! Then it's an uneasy "relative peace' & quiet"! A "Peace" that is based on threats and intimidation, with one group being in power over the subjugated, is NO peace at all! It is CONQUEST and ENSLAVEMENT! A peace that is easily broken by a rumor, leading to violence and bloodshed is no peace at all!

And: "How did you think those Christian communities, and communities of other faiths besides Muslim and Christian, got ESTABLISHED in those areas in the first place? Not by walking into a War Zone!"

They didn't "get established" -- they WERE ESTABLISHED LONG BEFORE ISLAM ... Christianity and Judaism existed for centuries before islam which was founded in 610 AD. Buddhism was founded in 460 BC. Hinduism in 1500-500 BC. Zoroastrianism was founded in 1200-1500 BC. So you see, islam came MUCH later -- and decimated the native populations & arabized the cultures of the countries they conquered!

When the muslim hordes came through and brought islam with the sword, whole communities were wiped out! The choice was -- AND IS -- Convert or die! The populations of Christians CONTINUES TO DWINDLE around the world. Hindus were wiped out in areas of India ... Buddhists in Afghanistan. Zoroastrians in Iran. etc! Right now, Buddhists in Thailand are being threatened and murdered -- including little children! Christians in every muslim majority country are being persecuted & systematically deprived of their rights, even to exist!!


Rahman Q (76)
Tuesday March 12, 2013, 8:48 pm
@ BMutinyTCorporationsEvil - First, thanks for taking the time to comment. I'm not here to slam you for writing what you think is the case based on the information you have. I'm here to make sure you have the correct information.

First, Islam has not historically existed peacefully with other religions because of Muhammad's example and what is in the Qur'an. Please watch this historically accurate presentation by Dr. Bill Warner detailing the murder of over 270 million Africans, Hindus, Christians, etc. in Islam's 1400+ year history:

Muslim wiped out half of the Christian churches just in the first few centuries of Islam. And this persecution by Muslims continues to date. Muhammad spread Islam by the sword, first raiding, pillaging and murdering his own people the Meccans, then Jews and Christians. This is the REAL Islam. This is the ONLY Islam. When you meet genuinely peaceful people who profess Islam as their religion, they do so out of ignorance of what Islam actually teaches, or some do it in spite of what Islam teaches, but most certainly not because of Islam.

How did Muslim countries become Muslim countries? Not peacefully. How did "Turkey" become Turkey? By "cleansing" it of 1.5 million Armenian Christians - and this just within the last 100 years!!!

Please read the pact of Umar, the second Caliph. Based on Sura 9:29 in the Qur'an, Christians are forced to choose between denying Jesus, living as semi-slaves, or being killed. The existence of Christian communities in Muslim countries is due to Christians choosing to live as semi-slaves. That pact of Umar says what Muhammad said, that no Muslim should be killed for taking the life of a Christian, but vice-versa is fine. Christians, who originally inhabited many of the now Muslim countries, didn't get there by "walking into a war zone." They were taken over by Muslims and the result is small Christian communities. Look at Egypt, being led by the Muslim Brotherhood. Coptic Christians are being raped, little Christian girls are forced to convert to Islam, abducted and sold as sex slaves, or killed. THIS IS ISLAM!!!

You wrote - "The Koran, like the Bible, has "war verses" and "peace verses". Just like members of other faiths, Muslims pick & choose which verses they are going to follow. We call it "cherry-picking" when it comes to the Bible. Members of a Church I go to occasionally {altho I am an Atheist!}, meet with members of a Mosque in friendly exchanges. These good American Muslim folks choose to "cherry-pick" the "Peace Verses" in the Koran. There is room for lots of interpretation."

The war verses in the Old Testament were for a particular time, and NEVER to conquer a people to force them to convert to Judaism or live as a semi-slave or be killed, as is the case with Islam. Jesus' message of peace is the ultimate authority. I do appreciate your open-mindedness going to church with your friends, and I will address you being an Atheist soon. Please understand the doctrine of abrogation in Islam, which many of the American Muslims you mentioned don't know about though it is in the Qur'an in Sura 2:106. This means that later, violent verses CANCEL the earlier peaceful ones. Because the Qur'an is not in chronological order but from longest to shortest chapters (Suras), an uninformed person can't tell which teachings are early and late. Sura 9, containing verse 5, CANCELS EVERY PEACEFUL VERSE IN THE QUR'AN because all of those peaceful ones like 2:256 "no compulsion in religion" and 109:6 "unto you you're religion and me mine". The one most commonly referenced these days is part of Sura 5:32 (killing one is like killing all mankind) without referencing the entire verse or the one right after it. 5:32 was for the children of Israel, and the ones for Muslims is 5:33 which calls for mutilating people who oppose Islam in any way, what Muslims call "making war". In fact, the very fact that I posted this article is considered in Islam to be an act of war against Islam. So please understand Christ's message of peace supersedes everything, and in Islam Muhammad's message of war supersedes everything peaceful. It is not an issue open to interpretation. In Islam, IJTIHAD has been closed for 1000 years. That is fundamental Islamic interpretation - The Qur'an, Ahadith, Sirat Rasul Allah, Tafsir, etc. Any contemporary rulings in Islam always have to reference those. When people try to reinterpret Islam to make it peaceful, it is their consciences not willing to accept that islam is inherently evil. To deny the divine authority of one verse of the Qur'an, like any of the 100+ violent ones, is to deny being Muslim. to disagree with any of Muhammad's Sunna, like raping women, is to deny being Muslim. The genuinely peaceful Muslims you come across are that way in SPITE of Islam and not because of it. The version of Islam taught them sounds more like Christianity than Islam.

Regarding your statement the "ferocious Fundamentalism we see in Islam today, stems from a sect, Waha'abism" please note that they are most accurately representing Muhammad's Islam. The contemporary public figure who most accurately represented Muhammad was Osam Bin Laden! Actually, Bin Laden was too nice. I don't believe he engaged in the rape of little girls and of women, like Muhammad did and like the Qur'an teaches.

Pakistan is the number one terrorist country, with about 90% of terrorists receiving their training there. Most of the Muslims in Pakistan are uneducated, and that is Islamic because Islamic belief is that the only knowledge worth having is in the Qur'an, a book full of scientific errors and moral errors. Muhammad / Allah discouraged Muslims from asking questions, as can be seen in Sura 5:101-102. Why discourage them? Because they would leave Islam if they asked questions and because they would see how Islam falls apart in the face of intellectual scrutiny - that is what the passage teaches!

The force most successfully advancing the Islamization of the world is the oldest terrorist group, the Muslim Brotherhood. The Muslim Brotherhood is the parent organization of Hamas. Some of their front groups in America are CAIR, ISNA, ICNA, the MAS, the MSA, etc. The Muslim Brotherhood has successfully infiltrated every branch of US government. No wonder the US supports the violent Muslim Brotherhood leadership in Egypt, which terrorizes their own Muslim population along with non-Muslims.

Islam mandates hatred of Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus...and yes Atheists. At least a Christian like me would be given the choice of living as a semi-slave, but an Atheist would have to convert or be killed. And why would any of this bother you as an Atheist? After Islam, Atheism is responsible for the most murders in history of 160 million people and counting. When people have no divine value, when they are taught they are a random bag of chemicals that happened by chance and ceases to exist at the grave, there is no value to life. An Atheist can't say "its just wrong" to kill someone because in a world of no purpose there is no right and wrong. What Hitler felt to do or Stalin felt to do cannot be considered right or wrong because wrong according to who? Morality comes from God. The standard of right and wrong comes from God. The Satanic Islamic teaching is that raping little girls, having sex slaves and raping captive females is right, and the West is wrong in condemning those things for Muslims. The Bill of Rights is based on Judeo-Christian values. The teaching of everyone being entitled to equal treatment is based on the Bible. Under Atheism, you have no authority outside of what you want to believe personally, to condemn someone who wants to kill as many people they can before leaving his world into nothingness. Under Christianity, God is the authority to tell all of us life is precious because we were made in His image and because Jesus was crucified and raised back to life so that we can be with God in bliss forever. As a Christian I have divine authority, the Bible, to condemn Islam's hatefulness. Under Atheism, you don't.

May the Lord bless you with a heart open to Him.

In Jesus,


Nancy Black (308)
Tuesday March 12, 2013, 9:06 pm
Noted, tweeted, tweeted, shared and shared. Sad that people are so fanatical they are willing to kill someone for what they say. You hear Muslims say Allah is good, and he might be but, it's not good to kill or destroy a village for religious reasons. It's no better to do it for payback We have to change or we are going to destroy ourselves. Some time, some small nation like Pakistan will get access to nuclear weapons and start a war that will destroy the world.

Kenneth L (314)
Tuesday March 12, 2013, 10:03 pm
@Rahman, here we go again. Rag at how bad other religions are, including atheists, while your own is a wonderful sweetness and light innocent little group of angelic saints. I think in the last 2000 yrs. Christians have killed many, many, many millions of people, in the name of the Christian God. And the Christian God is particular to the Christian religion. It isn't the Supreme Being of any other belief. And if someone isn't a Christian they are doomed to hell in a handbasket of course. And you would like everyone to be Christian of course.
You would invalidate Buddhism, Hinduism, native spirituality, and any other religion or spiritual belief,---anything and everything that isn't Christianity.

The idea of Supreme Being has been around long before Christianity. The idea that a human being is a spiritual being has been around long before Christianity. The idea that there is more than physical body or more after death has been around long before Christianity.

Christianity is dogmatic. Christianity in it's history has much blood on it's hands of murder, coercion, torture, enforced belief. subjugation, domination...

You make a lot of philosophical statements about right and wrong, purpose, etc. Philosophy has been around a lot longer than Christianity..

It could be said that with Christianity you have 'freedom of thought' etc. as long as you eventually come around to thinking and believing all things Christian. So is it really freedom of thought? Hardly. As I said it's dogmatic. 'Here is 'the truth' and here is what to believe and if you don't you are doomed. Well, maybe, maybe not. .


Rahman Q (76)
Tuesday March 12, 2013, 10:18 pm
@ Darren Woolsey - thank you sir for commenting on this story. You wrote, "and it's not religion that's too blame. . . that's an easy cop-out. It's man's interpretation thereof."

Actually, in the case of Islam it is the religion to blame. The real Islam is political. Muhammad's religion was a failure, generating only about 150 followers (mostly family and friends probably doing him a favor) in 13 years. Over the next 10 years (when he died) his strategy changed to pillaging, stealing, enslaving, raping, terrorizing, torturing and murdering. He even said "I have been made successful with terror." That is the true religion of Islam. That is how Islam grew and how most of the world was Islamic, until Muslims were pushed back by crusaders. (That was the whole point of the crusades, by the way.) America probably would not have existed had it not been for what the crusaders did to push back against the relentless attack by Islam.

Islamic terrorism is not based on interpretation, it is based on application of the Qur'an and Muhammad's Sunna.

There is no other way to interpret "Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are harsh to the unbelievers but merciful to one another" (Sura 48:29) than being harsh to non-Muslims.

There is no other way to interpret Sura 5:33 referring to non-Muslims "...they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world..." than to do that to non-Muslims.

I can go on and on with the physical violence commanded for Muslims, child rape and rape of women considered as a divine right, and other demented teachings in Islam, but I think you get the idea.

My friend, it's not the interpretation thereof, it's the religion of Islam that's to blame.

Rahman Q (76)
Tuesday March 12, 2013, 10:43 pm
@ Kenneth - once again, an uninformed individual speaks. Everyone, please notice how he did not once condemn the violence against Christians. That can only be taken to mean he supports it. Kenneth, perhaps you're telling us you'd like to be a minority and have your house burned down? You don't seem to mind it.

You rant and rave against Christianity when you have no idea what you are talking about. I feel sorry for you my friend. Where in the words of Jesus "pray for those who persecute you" and "do not murder" do you see "kill people because they don't believe what you do?" Exactly, you DON'T because Jesus taught peace. If someone chooses to call themself a Christian and goes around murdering people saying God told them to do it, they are going against Jesus in many ways. On the otherhand, if a Muslim acts genuinely peaceful towards non-Muslims and believes in equal rights of all and condemns rape, slavery, oppression and murder, they are going against Muhammad and his god in many ways.

Islam has the record for murdering people IN ACCORDANCE WITH ITS DOCTRINE - 280 million people and counting. Atheism is second - 160 million dead bodies and counting. Jesus rebuked his disciple for cutting off the soldier's ear. If Jesus preached violence, that would have been the time to support violence, but he condemned violence.

I can see you don't have peace in you, and that is sad. If you are willing to engage in a serious exchange, I'd be more than happy to explain all of the errors you've made in your rant. But if you just want to rant then I don't wish to waste my time. I will make two brief statements - 1) there is no such thing as the "Christian God." There is only God, found in the Bible. 2) God gives free will to love Him or reject Him, and there are results of both. I pray you will choose to actually learn about God's love for you instead of choosing to be unrepentant and reject God.

God bless,


Nimue Michelle Pendragon Gaze (339)
Tuesday March 12, 2013, 11:02 pm

Tommy S (11)
Wednesday March 13, 2013, 12:40 am
@Kenneth L
you are still delusional
In your absence I thought you were seeking treatment-- I was obviously wrong
As Rahman states...." you have no idea what you are talking about. "

I have told you this many times, and as the lost sheep are valuable so I presume are the lost asses

Nimue Michelle Pendragon Gaze (339)
Wednesday March 13, 2013, 12:46 am
An advert for just showed up under this story.

Süheyla C (234)
Wednesday March 13, 2013, 12:57 am
Thank you Rahman

Darren W (218)
Wednesday March 13, 2013, 1:01 am
@Rahman "@ Darren Woolsey - thank you sir for commenting on this story. You wrote, "and it's not religion that's too blame. . . that's an easy cop-out. It's man's interpretation thereof."

Actually, in the case of Islam it is the religion to blame. The real Islam is political. " 'Fraid not... it's men's *interpretation" of the religion and how they then manifest this out in everyday life... and this isn't restricted to any one religion, it's done to them all. "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity" and curiously, it's always "Religion" and poor old "God" that gets it in the neck...

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Wednesday March 13, 2013, 2:28 am
Here are three books available from - dealing with a period, the Middle Ages, in one country, Spain, where Muslims DID tolerate and live among Christians and Jews. This period is called the CONVIVENCIA. Look it up. There is a great deal of info on this period available. Christians and Jews lived under some restrictions, but they LIVED IN PEACE with Muslims. They were not slaves, nor persecuted. During this SAME period, CHRISTIANS IN OTHER PARTS OF EUROPE, ENGAGED IN POGROMS WIPING OUT SOME JEWISH COMMUNITIES.
There is far more to be said on this subject, than I have room for here. People can look these things up for themselves.
I repeat, there HAVE been long periods in some Muslim countries - and Spain used to be RULED by Muslims - where other faith communities among them flourished and were neighborly in the best sense.
This is absolute historical, geo-political FACT.
Three books available on

"Convivencia: Jews, Muslims, and Christians in Medieval Spain" by Vivian Mann; Paperback $31.91
"The Ornament of the World: How Muslims, Jews and Christians Created a Culture of Tolerance in Medieval Spain" by Maria Rosa Menocal; Paperback $10.87
"A Vanished World: Muslims, Christians, and Jews in Medieval Spain" by Chris Lowney; Paperback $13.45

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Wednesday March 13, 2013, 2:57 am
About "Atheists having no morals" -

As far as Hitler being an Atheist - NOWHERE did Adolf Hitler EVER say he was an Atheist, or profess Atheism, Agnosticism or Non-belief. On the DIRECT CONTRARY, in his writings and speeches, as ANYONE can read, Hitler CONSTANTLY mentioned and called upon God.
In fact, Hitler TRULY BELIEVED THAT HE WAS DIVINELY INSPIRED BY GOD. He says so OFTEN. If he was deep down inside, an Atheist, he sure did a good job LYING about it! Hitler believed, he said, that GOD INSPIRED HIM TO LEAD THE GERMAN NATION - and that GOD WAS LEADING THE GERMAN NATION THRU HITLER. Read "Mein Kampf" {"My Battle"}, in either the original German, or in ANY English translation! Also, I don't think there is a SINGLE PUBLIC SPEECH of Hitler's, where Hitler did NOT call on God and Divine Inspiration!
[Some Nazis, believed in Thor and Odin and the old Germanic Gods. That's not "Atheism" either! But, for his speeches for the masses, Hitler stayed very close to Christian Orthodoxy. The Catholic Church in Germany had been bad-mouthing Jews for centuries - laying the GROUNDWORK for Hitler's and the Nazis' persecutions. That is a lengthy subject of study in itself.]
So - the people Hitler killed, WERE NOT KILLED BY ATHEISM OR BY ATHEISTS. Nazis were Catholics, Protestants, and Odin-worshippers - some were a weird kind of Buddhists! But, THEY WERE NOT ATHEISTS AND DID NOT PUBLICLY PROFESS ATHEISM. They didn't want to publicly offend the German churches, for one thing! You hear NOW about the "dissident priests" - there were a FEW - but, at the time, THE MAJORITY OF CLERGY AND CHURCHES WENT ALONG WITH THE HOLOCAUST - this is HISTORICAL FACT. {So did Pope Pius XII and the Vatican...}

As to Stalin - he was RAISED BY HIS MOTHER TO BE A RUSSIAN ORTHODOX PRIEST. Obviously, he rebelled against it. But, as with Hitler, Stalin and the Church made an accommodation with each other. That is STILL the case, in Russia, with Putin, now.
Stalin's religiosity wasn't as OBVIOUS as Hitler's. However, to say that "all" Atheists {including me} are "like Stalin", is just as wrong, offensive and stupid as saying that "all" Roman Catholics are exactly like Adolf Hitler.

There ARE in fact, Secular, non-religious bases for Morality and Ethics. I refer you here to books by British Atheist and Secular Moralist Richard Dawkins - or, shorter and easier, to the many Videos on youtube where he speaks on this exact same subject... if I tried to cover it here, it would take pages.....

Unnikrishnan Sasidharan (44)
Wednesday March 13, 2013, 3:52 am
I guess this would be stage 3 of jihad
More here ..

Kenneth L (314)
Wednesday March 13, 2013, 7:08 am
Rahman, you're an idiot!

"once again, an uninformed individual speaks. Everyone, please notice how he did not once condemn the violence against Christians. That can only be taken to mean he supports it. Kenneth"

ABSOLUTELY FALSE. LIE. A retarded illogical conclusion, an incorrect assumption, totally non-sequitur to what I posted about Christianity and your pathetic drivel as a zoned-out Christian fundie. I've denounced ANY act of violence against people, no matter the religion, many times on these threads. But you are a newbie and an obnoxious know-it-all.

As for your other tirades against me personally, you show your true stripe as an 'enlightened religious or spiritual' person.
You are as dangerous to humanity as anyone you condemn.

You didn't have a single intelligent rebuttal to anything I stated.

You are a testament to your arrogant self.

For the record, state exactly how you KNOW what Christ said 2000 years ago. The truth is you don't KNOW what Christ said, you've only READ what OTHERS have said Christ said, and meant, and his views, and his attitudes. All written by humans. All fallible, able to make mistakes, misinterpret, alter, add, leave out, incorrectly conclude, etc.

THAT'S what you 'know' about Christ. Self-righteous ass.

Kenneth L (314)
Wednesday March 13, 2013, 7:13 am
again @ Rahman---"there is no such thing as the "Christian God." There is only God, found in the Bible" Are you for real? That's YOUR belief son! Period! The Christian God is different than supreme beings in native spirituality, Islam, new age, etc. Pertinent to the Bible and if you haven't noticed, the Bible is the holy book of Christianity, NOT any other of the major religions.
As I said, you are as blind as a bat regarding freedom of thought and a true slave of dogma.

Kenneth L (314)
Wednesday March 13, 2013, 7:16 am
@Tiommy S., oh yes another Christian fundie, hard core. You're as nuts as they come.

Kenneth L (314)
Wednesday March 13, 2013, 7:25 am
B. Mutiny is correct. Only a religious zealot would say 'atheists have no morals'. Now what convoluted crapola 'logic' brings you to that conclusion? No logic. Only their own personal beliefs behind it.

You see here with Rahman and Tommy S., how self-righteous and self-elevated over other people by asserting what THEY believe and think is so much more superior, and right, and true, and correct, and good, than what ANYONE else thinks or believes religiously or spiritually. It is the exact OPPOSITE of freedom of thought.

paul m (93)
Wednesday March 13, 2013, 7:49 am


Cousin It Addams (8)
Wednesday March 13, 2013, 10:10 am
i'm an atheist so don't start your crap with me. stop using the r-word you ignoramus. i have a cognitive disabled relative and you OFFENDED me.

mutiny, all i can say to you is the history books also said columbus was a fabulous individual who did great things over here in the new world for the indigenous people. by your standards antebellum america was characterized by relative peace and hell it was pretty convivial there, too. i was raised in a catholic setting and neither renounced my baptism officially nor was i excommunicated but if you call me a catholic i'll be pissed off enough to take a swing at you. i'm not one. hitler hated xianity and said so on many occasions.

the ones with the messed up "interpretation" of mohammedanism are, unfortunately, what the west calls "moderates" the most recent and best emulation of mohammed (pig-blood be upon him) himself is probably bin laden. pretty much to the letter of the koran there. and if you don't think it's political, please do us all a favor and look at some news sites from europe.

i myself listen and read what they say IN ARABIC and trust me it ain't what they're telling you. you infidels are a joke to them, amreeka is a laughing stock and like europe theirs to take. i'll be fine, i'm fluent in their language and already own a couple burkas. i can hide among them but i'll gladly die before i profess allegiance to satan/allaah. good luck to those of you that think they really want to be your pals. they say beheading saudi style isn't that bad, just hope it won't be the kind with the 12 year old kid using a dullish hunting knife when your turn comes up.

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Wednesday March 13, 2013, 2:19 pm
Glad you accept the modern take on the bloody Imperialism of Columbus and the dark underbelly of antebellum America. MOST respectable history books now do not disguise these FACTS - as many books in the 19th and early 20th century routinely did. There is a CONSENSUS now among respected historians, about both Columbus, and Slavery.
There is also a lot of research done, and a CONSENSUS, about the CONVIVENCIA. That is why I chose books to reference, that have RECENTLY BEEN PUBLISHED.
There is a good discussion, on Wikipedia, about the CONVIVENCIA, its good and its bad points. Naturally, it wasn't all puppies and roses. For Spain, it was a Golden Age for the Arts and Sciences. Non-Muslims were "second-class citizens" - but still, they were CITIZENS, with LEGAL RIGHTS. Better than Jews had in Christian countries at the time! For women, it was probably not so great - as Christians tended to adopt Muslim customs, including the veil for women in some cases. But, I was using the EXAMPLE of the CONVIVENCIA - not as an example of "Paradise on Earth" which of course it wasn't, no place is - but, as a VERY CONSPICUOUS EXAMPLE OF MUSLIMS AND OTHER FAITHS LIVING IN PEACE UNDER MUSLIM RULE. Christians were NOT slaves under the Convivencia, so the antebellum South is not an analogy.
Christians were NOT massacred or enslaved under the Convivencia, so Columbus is not an apt comparison.

And, the Convivencia is ONLY ONE example, of Christian and Muslim {and other} communities co-existing.
Sometimes they co-existed, and for long periods - other times they didn't.
But, it is FALSE to say that they NEVER co-existed, or CAN'T co-exist.
Communities that are now being attacked, had to have EXISTED for a while, in peace, BEFORE they were attacked.
I mean, like, DUH.....
I am trying to point out here, that these attacks, which are horrible, are because of a complexity of Economic/Political reasons, with stirred-up religious fanaticism adding fuel to the passions and frustrations of people.
We have to take care that the SAME sort of religious fanaticism, is not exacerbating the passions and frustrations of CHRISTIANS.... as I see it happening here, with those who want to "kill all the Muslims"....
no different from Waha'abists, no different from Hitler...

Also, I don't think the U.S. should be longterm ALLIES with Saudi Arabia, which is a CENTER FOR FANATIC WAHA'ABISM, and EXPORTS it to the rest of the Muslim world... THERE'S inconsistency for you! on the part of U.S. policy.....

Barbara Tomlinson (431)
Wednesday March 13, 2013, 2:38 pm
To clarify:
Hitler may have hated Christianity - but HITLER WAS NOT AN ATHEIST.
The two are not the same thing.
HITLER CALLED ON GOD ALL THE TIME. How is that consistent with being an "Atheist"?
If Adolf Hitler was, deep in the core of his inner being, an Atheist, that has to be the most covered-up secret of all time...
Hitler in no way, shape or form, manifested Atheism.
By the way, LOTS of vicious criminals, serial murderers, rapists, etc., have been religious believers, believers in their own peculiar God...

About Hitler being a Catholic -
according to THE WAY THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH DEFINES IT, if you or anybody else were Baptized a Catholic, as an infant when you had nothing to say about it, and you never renounced that Baptism formally, and were never excommunicated by the Church - then YOU DIED A CATHOLIC. Even if you never crossed the threshold of a Catholic Church in your entire life. According to Catholic doctrine, it is the BAPTISM that makes you a Catholic. That is what the CHURCH says.
So, every "lapsed" or "non-observant" Catholic, is still officially counted by the Church as among the number of Catholics. The Church COULD have excommunicated Hitler - but didn't. So, HE DIED A CATHOLIC. Even without the last rites, etc.
Better hurry up and renounce YOUR Baptism... it has to be done IN WRITING, and delivered to the Parish where you were originally Baptized, not where you are living now... The Church wants to make it difficult for people to do that...

bob m (32)
Wednesday March 13, 2013, 5:27 pm

As to blood on hands what is that on your hands Ken?........on a personal level ; aside from what men have done with the machinations of pride...what will you do with His shed Blood....shed for you.
You remind me of the old arcade game with the arrow firing out at the decending targets all directions...
But truely you will face your own judgement ...I hope you come to understand the amazing Grace Gift laid freely before you ...Before your heart comdemns you forever....

bob m (32)
Wednesday March 13, 2013, 5:32 pm

What will you die Egypt?.. whilst locusts fly from mouths ; today is the day of the Lord... ..You must be born again.

Carla van der Meer (648)
Wednesday March 13, 2013, 7:15 pm
Religion seems to be the main cause of hatred and mistrust. More people have been killed in the name of god(S) than most anything else.

Stan B (123)
Thursday March 14, 2013, 1:02 am
I'm sure you're right, Carla, but at the moment there's only one religion doing most of the killing.

Tommy S (11)
Thursday March 14, 2013, 2:30 am
@ Kenneth L

Quote...@Tiommy S., oh yes another Christian fundie, hard core. You're as nuts as they come..Unquote

---- I know when you are getting excited-- your dyslexia comes to the fivefront on fundies when you start thinking of hardcore.

and yet nothing changes-- your inane comments - (the product of an empty head and the Dunning Kruger effect) are still inane
To save you looking it up
The Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled people make poor decisions and reach erroneous conclusions, but their incompetence denies them the metacognitive ability to appreciate their mistakes.

Kenneth you are an ass----not the front of an ass nor the back of an ass but no end of an ass and the worst fault of all -- too dim to see it.


Rahman Q (76)
Thursday March 14, 2013, 5:30 am
@BMutiny - you seem to be stuck on Hitler, Saudi Arabia and Convivencia when this article is about Christians being persecuted in Pakistan (and in the rest of the Muslim world) with the reason being Islamic doctrine.

To you, if Saudi Arabia didn't have Waha'abists all would be fine and dandy in the Muslim world for Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, etc. You fail to understand that Muslims kill Muslims, as has always been in Islam, and that seed of self-destructive hatred spreads to non-Muslims per Muhammad's example, teachings and his god Allah.

You fail to also understand that Waha'abists are MOST adhering to Islam. Bin Laden was as close to a perfect example of Muhammad in modern ages, though Osama was too mild as compared to Muhammad. What people label as "extremists" like Waha'abists, Salafis, or whatever else are the ones actually holding most true to Islamic doctrine - Islamic DOCTRINE being the key word.

You're stuck on this concept of Muslims and Christians co-existing in Spain in the so-called "Golden Age" yet you have to qualify the non-Muslim existence six way from Sunday as "lived under some restrictions" and "wasn't all puppies and roses" and "for women it was probably not so great" and "second-class citizens". If that is co-existence then I'm sure you're ready right now to live under such circumstances since you are so passionate about defending it as an example of something good, right? You are so blind that you still call living under such circumstances as being a citizen! To you the concept of "separate but equal" makes perfect sense, and I feel sorry for you.

Muslims have the option of treating the dhimmi (subjected Christian, Jew) well or harshly, if they can use the dhimmi. For example, pretty women and girls weren't killed but sold as sex slaves because they could generate income. Muslim destroy everything good under Islam so Muhammad created the concept of the dhimmi for income. Sura 9:28 Muslims were worried about the loss of income by prohibiting people from making the pilgrimiage to the Ka'aba because that was a huge income source. So Muhammad established the concept of the Dhimmi in the next aya with the income source being jizya. By his example, slavery was also an income source, as was raiding and plundering since that was how he funded his Medinan ministry. So causing non-Muslims to live under subjugation is Islamic. If they are better being used by Muslims, then the Muslim has the option of not killing them. Such was the case in Spain or the so-called "Golden Age" where Muslims, because of Islam, fail to produce anything good so relied on stealing inventions and works of non-Muslims under their rule. When you hear of all these "inventions" and "discoveries" made under Islamic rule, it was from the semi-slave dhimmi. In Islam, when a Muslim produces something good, it is in SPITE of Islam and not because of it, such as the handful of Muslims who won Nobel prizes, while living in Western countries mind you. They are dwarfed in comparison to the Jews who have won at least 158 Nobel prizes even though Jews are subjected to terror in Israel and Jews make up a fraction of the world's population while Muslims make up a significant portion with nearly 2 billion Muslims. So stop with your prattle trying to show "co-existence" all the while they were semi-slaves. You would also argue slavery in America was good because slaves were given food and allowed to marry and raise families. Only a diseased mind would try to defend slavery in any form as having some merit.

280 million+ people have been murdered because of Islam. As you write, Christian girls and women are being raped because they are Christian. Why don't you write about that instead? Why don't you write about current events such as this? Why don't you write about the murders being committed by Sunnis and Shi'ites alike, of each other and of non-Muslims? Why don't you write about and denouce the Pact of Umar (second Caliph) which guides the semi-slave treatment of Christians and Jews under Muslim rule? Why don't you write about the unfairness of Jews being kicked out of Saudi Arabia because Muhammad said to expel them, all the while people complain about Israel as "occupiers" even though both from the Bible and Qur'an the land of Israel belongs to the Jews? Why don't you write about Christianity being illegal in Saudi Arabia, and not because of "a sect born in the early 20th century" but because of Muhammad?

Hitler said "The only religion I respect is Islam. The only prophet I admire is the Prophet Muhammad." No wonder, both hate the Jews and call for their destruction. Muslims must believe, whether Western Muslims like it or not, that all Jews must be killed because the Muslim messiah the Madhi / 12th Imam for Shi'ites, can't return until the Jews are wiped off the face of the earth. Islamic teaching is "first the Saturday people, then the Sunday people" which means wipe out the Jews then turn on the Christians. Hitler also had his hit list, starting with the Jews. Hitler was best friends with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (high ranking Muslim position) and Hitler has his Muslim army of 100K - 250K fighting on the side of the Nazi's. Hitler had an affinity for Islam, having Muslims on the payroll. How does that in any way make Hitler a Christian? If Hitler wasn't an Atheist then the god he was talking about was Muhammad's Allah!

Saying Stalin was raised to be a Russian Orthodox Priest means absolutely NOTHING. Like you noted, he rejected it and was an Atheist. You go by the ideology someone operates under, not by how they were raised. Communism is Atheism. Islam is actually Communism with a god.

Where did I say - "all" Atheists {including me} are "like Stalin" - can you show me that anywhere? All of my comments are out there for all to see. What is happening is you recognize Atheism is inherently evil because of what it can produce, but because you have morality you don't want to be identified with historically public figures like Stalin or the Communist ideology which resulted in the murder of 160+ million people and continues to oppress and murder. Such is the cognitive dissonance Muslims face when islam is exposed to them, and such is the one you're experiencing. I never said all Muslims kill people or that all Atheist kill people. I have friends who are Atheists, though I am a Christian. It is my belief to love them because that is what Jesus taught. But that doesn't mean I don't point out the obvious flaws inherent in Atheism, in fact, exposing them is part of loving them. Atheists who are moral must understand that is by their choice and those who rape, torture and murder do by their choice and no Atheist can condemn that. To say "it's just wrong" means nothing because to those raping, torturing and murdering "it's just right." But when God is introduced into the picture, well now we have His authority to define what is right and wrong. Atheists essentially say they are god to determine what is right and wrong to condemn someone who murders. The philosophy of evolution was created to destroy Christianity. The teaching of "survival of the fittest" drives people to wipe others out because they are not "fit" and the proof they they weren't "fit" is they were able to be wiped out. If that isn't a supremacist ideology then I don't know what it is. That ideology lines up with the Quran'ic teaching in Sura 3:110 "Muslims are the best of peoples." Muslims have their ideology of Islam to justify their supremacist belief, and Atheists have their ideology of Atheism rooted in Darwinian evolution. The holy grail of evolution is the non-exitent geologic column. The holy grail of Christianity is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. I highly recommend you follow the latter.

Rahman Q (76)
Thursday March 14, 2013, 5:41 am
@ Darren - you made a general blanket statement again. I gave you specific teachings of Islam and yet you said the same thing of interpretation. You want to believe it is interpretation why Muslims like those in this article act the way they do because you don't want to face the fact that Islamic doctrine is 100% the reason. Would you like to try to interpret the Qur'anic references to not mean what they say they mean? I'd like to see that.

Here is what I posted:


There is no other way to interpret "Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are harsh to the unbelievers but merciful to one another" (Sura 48:29) than being harsh to non-Muslims.

There is no other way to interpret Sura 5:33 referring to non-Muslims "...they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world..." than to do that to non-Muslims.


If you try to interpret other than what it says, keep in mind the interpretations have already been done in the Tafsir like that if Ibn Abbas, a companion of Muhammad. The application of these verses are in the Ahadith and Sirat Rasul Allah, which make up Islamic Shari'a law. If you think you are more of an authority on Islam than ibn Abbas or even Muhammad, then that is the problem right there. You think you can interpret Islam better than those who laid the foundation of it. And that my friend is delusion.

Rahman Q (76)
Thursday March 14, 2013, 5:44 am
@ Kenneth L. - I'll get back to you in a bit, after I finish work. I see Tommy has had his say, and you will do especially well to listen to Bob M. I'll post my response to yours later.

Kenneth L (314)
Thursday March 14, 2013, 10:40 am
@Bob M. and Rahman, you're a perfect example of religious oppression and self-superiority. You try to use fear. I think it says in the bible 'at whatever point, as you judge others, you also condemn yourself'. You must have something to say to all the atheists on this thread. Nah. Same with Tommy S. But you have no balls. You only attack someone who confronts you with your own bullshit and you can't take it.
Whatever anyone thinks about Christ or the bible or God is between them and God, not some peon little humans like yourselves.

Lydia S (71)
Thursday March 14, 2013, 8:28 pm
Thank you Rahman, for your accurate & factual posts ... when it comes to "epitome of spittle leaking, zonked out" -- only one matches that description ... the one who came up with those words ;-)

Some just have a mindless, knee jerk reactions, when they are confronted with the truth & it doesn't match the info they have in their comfortable little bubble!

Yeah, "islam is peace" alright -- and so is war ... and "wrong is righ", " truth is false", etc. Double speak, the language of the Liberal Leftist, who signs petitions "defending Human Rights, Women's Rights, LGBT Rights, Animal Rights, etc., ALL while Defending the WORST ABUSER of all those Rights!

Islam -- the POLITICAL IDEOLOGY masquerading as a "religion" -- which denounces Western Civilization, threatens those who believe in tolerance. and is working to force Sharia/islam on all -- whether we want it or not!

To all the islamists & their apologists & appeasers .... baaaa baaaa -- Sheep have more sense!

Tommy S (11)
Friday March 15, 2013, 2:20 am
@Kenneth L
.Let's see, on this thread, 3 atheists, 2 Buddhists, a Muslim, a Pagan, and a couple Agnostics.
...Unquote Why did you leave out the last three words "and an asshole".... such false modesty is unbecoming in one of your stature

Never mind Kenneth I enjoy your jibber-jabber and am not in the least offended by your abnormal,behavioral deviancy and I do appreciate that language is not your strong-suit and make adjustments accordingly.
Keep on wittering


Kenneth L (314)
Friday March 15, 2013, 10:14 am
Don't be a coward Tommy. Don't run and hide behind your politically correct, social tea party pretenses on these threads. Don't avoid, or change the subject or not address it. Tell everybody what you fully and REALLY think of the atheists, buddhists, muslim, pagan, agnostics, and the 2 or 3 Jews on this thread.
Tell it to their faces scrum. You're a big man. You're a loudmouth Christian fundamentalist who lords it over anyone else who doesn't have the same personal beliefs as you.

Don't crawl out from under your antisocial psychotic rock every once in a while on these threads to throw stones at other people, or to just personally attack me. which is all you've done here, immediately and continually on this thread (and this is the correct sequence of events that occurred on this thread Lydia---and if you think I'm not going to attack back sister, you're dreaming).

So little scrum Tommy, be a big man, have some balls, put your money where your mouth is, and state JUST how WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, DELUDED, FALSE, NOT REAL all the personal beliefs of these atheists, agnostics, jews, pagan, muslim, buddhists are on this thread...and how RIGHT, RIGHT, RIGHT, TRUE, CORRECT, REAL,,,YOUR...personal beliefs are.

Waiting coward.


Bettina Galo (70)
Saturday March 16, 2013, 9:26 am
It is undeniable that all fronts are attacked Christian believers. Our faith is the least accepted by the major world powers. What had also conquered much effort, mutual respect in some Muslim countries, is now lost. But from everywhere trying to silence us, amordazarnos not afford express or part of contributing to a better society. It appeals for human rights for all, but when asking for the right to freedom of expression of the Christian, it is denied or silenced. The God of Christians upset. As one said: bark Sancho sign that ride. This saying for those who do not know their origin is due to the great book of Don Quixote de la Mancha, an exceptional book. In their ideals equally fought against windmills. Here the opponents of the Christian God, trying to silence us at all costs. But whether they think will fight against windmills, continue to demand respect for God to live according to Christ and to defend our God.

bob m (32)
Saturday March 16, 2013, 10:16 am

He is Lord...He Is the Lamb...The Alpha and Omega...The Way , Life, and truth... King of Kings , The Door , The gate, the Invitation to eternal life
His Shed blood ..Holy and the ONLy sufficient payment for sin...His Name above every name that is named,...The Son of God... crucified by sinful hands like mine .. hung on a tree... Given.... Gracious as only God can be.. without equal ... yes He is my Lord, my saviour...My salvation .. there is none other like Him ...
Creator redeamer,Saviour.....God come toward us to give Himself for all ...once and forever... only believe...
very soon all doubt will flee.. sadly most will hide under the stones to no effect.. their hearts long hardened in bitterness and wrath... having listened to deceiving spirits couched in darkness; out of whose mouths pour death like; out of deaths' mouth like rivers of scarab... GREAT DECEIT OUT OF THE LOINS OF THE DECEIVER... ..THE ONE DEFEATED AT CALVARY. THANK YOU JESUS.

Kenneth L (314)
Sunday March 17, 2013, 5:51 am
Finally, a Christian fundamentalist getting around to preaching YOUR personal beliefs. YOUR dogma.

And EVERY INDIVIDUAL has their own personal beliefs. And many also have 100% conviction of their personal beliefs. That would include atheists, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, new age, agnostics, native spirituality, and then all the different sects found within Christianity, Islam, Hindu, Buddhism etc.

In fact one of the HUMAN RIGHTS in the UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS is 'FREEDOM OF THOUGHT'. And that means freedom to believe whatever you want to believe. However, that is the antithesis of Christian fundamentalists who use their personal dogmatic beliefs to SQUASH any and every other individual and their personal beliefs. It is the exact OPPOSITE of 'FREEDOM OF THOUGHT'

To be fair, bob m. should ask every other individual on this thread to state their own personal religious and spiritual beliefs. And accept them. Nah, ain't gonna happen. His beliefs are right, true and real, and ANYTHING ELSE is wrong, false, and not real.

And thus you have bigotry.


Kenneth L (314)
Sunday March 17, 2013, 6:05 am
btw, I can imagine the same lines that bob m. has used were used a few hundred years ago at Salem to torture and murder individuals for being 'witches'.
I can imagine the same lines being used before that to torture and murder individuals for being 'heretics'.in the Inquisition.
The same lines being used to squash anyone who 'dares' to question or disagree with the Bible, Christ, God as of Christianity. The use of fear that if you do you are part and parcel of 'satan' and will be doomed to eternal badness. Actually, it's control and domination and the antithesis of freedom of thought.

bob m (32)
Sunday March 17, 2013, 8:33 am

Actually no Ken; I have sat at the table of "witchcraft".. and learned of my own rebellion. I have heard the name whispered from lips of one whose purpose was entirely based on seeking souls that time mine.
I have become aware at that table that this world which groans under the burden of sin and woundedness is a feeding ground for a spiritual power (spirits); who truely does exhist in darkness and is "sent " (like a hunter on scent) plant seed unto DO the works of darkness and to undo the works of love..I have watched this spirit indeed judge and corner and plant its' poisonous teeth into the hearts of men who were despairing in bars and ignorant of the end planned for them.. ; by those who confess as my hunter did ...their name....mine actually turned upon being thwarted momentarily and being convicted by a word of knowledge the Lord gave me and after hissing like a serpent....pushed forth like gas under pressure, the name "witchcraft"... before fleeing.
Pride is a killer Ken .... and I was PRIDEFUL in omnibus... and lustful...and had seen all that God had given me walk out the door ....I lived in darkness myself ; but figured I was a NICE" GUY ...A VICTIM...
I had no idea that I was a preditor myself.

I fond myself at that table ..being examined by a spirit so much more cerebral than I and speaking of things which I had never dreamed of....I was asked if I would serve him for 10000 years .. The ONLY thing that delivered me out of these powers' grip was the presence of the Glory of God in me which I really knew little of..but who as promised had Graven me upon His Hand... so let me assure you humbly I hope ..that these things are true but the power of Gods deliverence are committed in Love and salvation and deliverance to those who call upon His Name .. Mercifully ...He hears them .. and gives Himself up for them He did for me.... I speak not as a bigot ....but as one who has seen and heard such terrible suffering in darkness and suffered in rejection .. left a spiritual leper at the roadside.. I was found by my Shepherd dying there and recieved from Him new life ...even as He Gave himself for me ... there is none Greater Ken..than this Lamb of God.

Kenneth L (314)
Monday March 18, 2013, 11:49 am
'Actually' you're rambling bob m. and running manic with YOUR personal religious beliefs.

Look up the words 'dogma' and 'bigotry' in any dictionary. These 2 words exist. They mean something. They have definitions. I didn't make them up. Then apply them to 'dogmatic religions' and 'religious bigotry'.

And of course nary a response whatsoever about the Human Right 'Freedom of Thought'. That's another actual term that exists and part of the DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS. But 'freedom of thought' is so unacceptable and intolerable to religious fundamentalists.

bob m (32)
Monday March 18, 2013, 2:19 pm

have it your way Ken.

Cousin It Addams (8)
Tuesday March 19, 2013, 10:34 am
ken, you have a teeny weeny memory.

i know for a fact you've been shown that mohammedans reject the universal declaration of human rights as a man-made and therefore sinful "law". i also know you got a link to their own declaration which subjugates everyone, even you and me, whether we want it or not, to the absolute and perfect-for-all-time allaah-ordained law of shari'a.

in other words, it's at best a bad joke mockery of human rights, since women, gays, apostates, and non-mohammedans are relegated to sub-human status. animals don't fare well either. and neither do mohammedan men accused of any number of offenses. unless i'm wrong and hacking off a thief's hand or crucifying (literally) some random guy for not liking the government are somehow honoring human rights?

i do believe you when you say you care about human rights but i don't get how you buy the line of bull that such a concept does exist in mohammedanism when it so clearly doesn't and the leaders of it say exactly that it doesn't. a cursory perusal of news headlines from mohammedan countries should have cured you of that within a few minutes even if you don't believe the mullahs (assuming you apply logic and an open mind, big assumptions, i know).

maybe your memory, logic, and narrowmindedness issues stem from the occasional bolus having to squeeze past your head on it's way out your anal sphincter?

Klaus Peters (14)
Saturday March 23, 2013, 9:37 am
With all the mud slinging, I will not comment at all. Religion is dangerous territory, hence: wars and hate.

Cousin It Addams (8)
Monday March 25, 2013, 10:53 am
okey dokey kenny,
we established that nazis can think their nazi thoughts, mohammedans can think their anti-semitic misogynistic thoughts, white supremacists can think their racist thoughts, but you jump all over bob's right to his christian thoughts. why do they threaten you so? what, has bob been firebombing your house to get you to convert? every evil can think as nasty as they like but his concern for your everlasting soul, as he sees it, well, we can't have that. funny, cause i'm an atheist and while i see bob's comments as quaint, they neither offend me, nor put me on the defensive. i think he is genuine, even if i disagree.

while you still have your dictionary out go in the H section, i believe "hypocrite" might be instructive to you. in seeing yourself as one, i mean. cause you're already an old pro at DOING hypocrisy.

and are you really that naive or is it an act? who backs up their religion with ACTION? i'd say burning out a whole village of christians is a bit pasat THOUGHTS, sir. i'd say doing that on the mere word of a man who was drunk (against his religion) when he thought he heard an offending comment (an expression of thought that the christian had a right to, except for in pakistan you DON'T have that right) with no due process is ACTION. what is this? stephen king? did their THOUGHTS cause the houses (like 180 some) to burst into flame spontaneously?

lastly, i am honored for the compliment you paid me. it made my day to be called an asshole by you. if you, with your piss-poor judgment of character say i'm an asshole, i can only conclude that i must be one helluva fine human being.

Russell R (2)
Monday April 22, 2013, 8:24 am
two men — one Christian and one Muslim — than blasphemy. He said the men got into a brawl after drinking late one night, and in the morning the Muslim man made up the blasphemy story as payback.
~ got into a brawl after drinking - I guess the mussie pig lost the fight and went crying, "blasphemy, blasphemy, blasphemy" all the way home to his imomy.
The mussie was possessed by "Evil Spirits" he was drinking. A follower of islami is forbidden to partake in the drinking of alcohol.
They are all cowards when alone. That is why they have this mob mentality!

The Shariah

Only Allah knows what is right and beneficial for His creation, and alternatively what is wrong and harmful. The Holy Quraan clearly states the lawful and unlawful actions. All Humans must follow this Law of Allah which is known as the `Shariah' or Islamic Law.
Amongst the clear-cut prohibitions is the use of Alcohol in any form whatsoever.

No - Selling!

The selling of Alcohol is also forbidden. It is completely Haraam for Muslims to be trading in this trade. It is also forbidden to sell alcohol as part of your business. Grocers, Newsagents and Mini-Market traders should keep this in mind. Therefore, no question remains regarding trading in Off-Licences, Pubs or Public Houses. In selling of these in Take-Aways and Restaurants also is completely Haraam. Muslims should also not work or employ any of their family members in such Haraam Environments.

The consumption of Alcohol can destroy families, communities and in fact a whole locality. Man commits such autrocious crimes in the state of being drunk which can only be described as babaric and ruthless.

Cover your sin, Follower of islami. and cry "blasphemy!" ~'Allah Knows All' and what you have done!~
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