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This Is How We Fought in Gaza 2014 - Press Release From Breaking the Silence


World  (tags: Israel, Palestine, Gaza, Protective Edge, Breaking the Silence, IDF, indiscriminate firehumanrights, politics, middle-east )

Angelika
- 1478 days ago - breakingthesilence.org.il



   

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Angelika R (143)
Monday May 4, 2015, 1:33 pm
Press Release: This is How We Fought in Gaza 2014

This is How We Fought in Gaza 2014- Soldiers’ Testimonies from Operation “Protective Edge”

Today, May 4th, 2015, “Breaking the Silence,” an organization of Israeli soldiers, is releasing testimonies from over 60 officers and soldiers who took part in Operation “Protective Edge” in Gaza during the summer of 2014. These testimonies paint a disturbing picture of the IDF’s policy of indiscriminate fire, which directly resulted in the deaths of hundreds of innocent Palestinian civilians.

The testimonies collected by Breaking the Silence paint a troubling picture of a drastic change in the IDF’s combat norms. The IDF’s guiding values such as the “Purity of Arms” principle —which mandates that soldiers use the minimum amount of force necessary and “maintain their humanity even in combat”— were devalued and even discarded by the IDF itself.

The rules of engagement relayed to the soldiers were the most permissive Breaking the Silence has ever heard.

Many soldiers testified that the orders that they received were to shoot to kill every person sighted in the area.

The soldiers were given misleading information, according to which IDF activities were to take place in areas cleared of civilians. In reality, the forces entered areas in which innocent civilians, and sometimes even entire families, remained.

Throughout the Operation, the IDF fired thousands of imprecise artillery shells into residential neighborhoods.

Throughout the Operation, the IDF carried out mass destruction of civilian infrastructure and homes. In many cases, this destruction occurred without any clear operational justification and after the ground forces had already “cleared” and left the area.

Many residential homes were shelled, from the ground and from the air, in order to “demonstrate presence in the area,” or even as an act of punishment.

The Director of Breaking the Silence, Yuli Novak, says:

“From the testimonies given by the officers and soldiers, a troubling picture arises of a policy of indiscriminate fire that led to the deaths of innocent civilians. We learn from the testimonies that there is a broad ethical failure in the IDF’s rules of engagement, and that this failure comes from the top of the chain of command, and is not merely the result of “rotten apples.” As officers and soldiers, we know that internal military investigations scapegoat simple soldiers rather than focusing on policy.

The public must know what missions its sons are being sent to carry out, and according to which norms the IDF acts in its name. We call for the establishment of an investigative committee external to the IDF, which will investigate the policy behind the rules of engagement given during “Protective Edge,” and the norms and values that stand at the base of this policy.’’
 

Sue H (7)
Monday May 4, 2015, 1:35 pm
;(...
 

Angelika R (143)
Monday May 4, 2015, 1:36 pm

Letter to The Chief of General Staff of the IDF, General Gadi Eizenkot
 

. (0)
Monday May 4, 2015, 1:44 pm
I---D(my posterior!!!)---F
 

Past Member (0)
Monday May 4, 2015, 2:58 pm
And are we going to discuss hamas's heinous war crimes? No??

The very essence of anti-Semitic bigotry is to place Israel on an unattainable pedestal, whilst blithely and snidely ignoring the far more heinous crimes committed, and being commited, by almost every nation on the planet.
 

Sue Matheson (79)
Monday May 4, 2015, 3:00 pm
thanks
 

Lona Goudswaard (66)
Monday May 4, 2015, 3:02 pm
Thanks for posting this so quickly, Angelika. This news release of Breaking the Silence was the basis of the front page article of my Dutch newspaper. That it was front page news was somewhat remarkable, but even more remarkable was the fact that it was published on Remembrance Day, the 70th after WWII ended. Since this is also the time that the Holocaust and the large number of Dutch Jews who perished in it are commemorated, publishing this article today will surely cost the paper a few readers. Obviously the editors decided it was too important not to run it.

I believe that many will be shocked by the contents of this article, but this isn't the first article on the behavior of the IDF in Gaza and slowly, as more and more is revealed, the truth is laid bare and is accepted. Well, at least here in Europe, it is.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Monday May 4, 2015, 3:14 pm
And this is what was being denied systematically -

e.g. " You’re allowed to shoot at pretty much whatever you want to, unless you see something that would be unreasonable to shoot at, like a school. There were times we were told, “You see that building? That’s a school, don’t shoot there. And that over there is the Gaza amusement park – one can see the Ferris wheel from a distance – we don’t shoot at it.” But everything else that they didn’t specifically instruct us to avoid shooting at – and except for a few other places, where nearby [IDF] forces were located to avoid friendly fire – you could shoot anywhere, nearly freely. There are also times when we said, “Let’s fire over there, worst case they’ll ask what we shot at, we’ll say it was a ‘suspicious spot,’ that it looked threatening.” That happened a few times."

And another:
"The rules of engagement are pretty identical: Anything inside [the Gaza Strip] is a threat, the area has to be ‘sterilized,’ empty of people – and if we don’t see someone waving a white flag, screaming “I give up” or something – then he is a threat and there is authorization to open fire. In the event that we arrest and restrain him, then one strips him to make sure there is no explosive device on him.

To get authorization to open fire, does he need to be armed, or with binoculars?
I think he just needs to be there.

When you say open fire, what does that mean?
Shooting to kill. This is combat in an urban area, we’re in a war zone. The saying was: ‘There’s no such thing there as a person who is uninvolved.’ In that situation, anyone there is involved. Everything is dangerous; there were no special intelligence warnings such as some person, or some white vehicle arriving… No vehicle is supposed to be there – if there is one, we shoot at it. Anything that’s not ‘sterile’ is suspect. There was an intelligence warning about animals. If a suspicious animal comes near, shoot it. In practice, we didn’t do that. We had arguments about whether or not to do it. But that was just a general instruction; in practice you learn to recognize the animals because they are the only ones wandering around.

During the period that you were there, did you see an armed Palestinian?
Nothing, I didn’t see a single living human being, except for the guys in my platoon and a few from the Armored Corps. "

"What rules of engagement were you provided with before
you entered [the Gaza Strip]?
I don’t really remember what was discussed in terms of formal instructions before we entered, and after we entered nobody really cared about the formal instructions anyway. That’s what we knew. Every tank commander knew, and even the simple soldiers knew, that if something turns out to be not OK, they can say they saw something suspicious. They’ve got backup. They won’t ever be tried"

Kudos to Breaking The Silence for sharing the testimonies.

"Strange" that official reports find no fault ....
But of course - anywhere can be described as "suspicious spot" to justify -
And no Palestinian is considered uninvolved, innocent .... the mere fact of existing makes them guilty ... the crime of being Palestinian ... so eminently killable ...

:>(
 

Evelyn B (63)
Monday May 4, 2015, 3:26 pm
What is very striking in these witness statements is the extent to which what soldiers had "heard" (not seen themselves) colours their judgements - leads them to kill first, maybe ask questions later ... but meanwhile, cover up the dead with rubble so it won't be so obvious (sounds like a hint of guilt there)

No clear reports of Hamas' crimes - other than fighting back against a vastly larger & better equipped invading army .... Just assumptions by those who need justification to dehumanise all Palestinians in order to live with such actions.

Moral army? Israeli Military MORAL more like it ... their own standards, don't need to be measured against others, too "superior"
 

Past Member (0)
Monday May 4, 2015, 3:37 pm
evilyn, you're so full of non-kosher baloney....... Just WHO is *justifying*??
 

Past Member (0)
Monday May 4, 2015, 6:51 pm
You don't read very well, do you, earlie?
 

. (0)
Monday May 4, 2015, 7:22 pm
I read you alright.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday May 4, 2015, 7:42 pm
Obviously not. LOLOL!!
 

Evelyn B (63)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 2:47 am
Earl - more Animal Farm than 1984, no?
 

Angelika R (143)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 3:49 am
Thank you all for great comments, ..was too tired last night to comment. Lona, that looks like a pivot foryour media, amazing! And yes, "drop by drop"the truth spreads to Europeans, those who may have been unaware so far.
Nothing to add to Evelyn there! Neither to Earl's... strong language there but honest!

After I was angry and disappointed that there was zero word from our media about those clashes and huge rally at Rabin Squ. in Tel Aviv, I was pleased this morning to hear at least about THIS report, they were surprisingly quick addressing this what was previously regarded as pretty much a taboo subject.
I assume we'll be hearing much more about it, after there will be some official Israeli statement about the allegations, which are all factual.
 

Ben O (131)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 4:01 am
Right, tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth!
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 4:12 am
No one has EVER said that all Israelis are innocent of wrongdoing, but it is NOT state endorsed and it is severely punished.
The point of your malicious bigotry is persecuting every Israeli who picks a booger, whilst ignoring the thousands of war crimes, genocide, human rights violations, beheadings, massacres, suicide bombings, rapes........happening in other countries everyday.
Where is your MORALITY and INTEGRITY?
What you have is not righteous indignation, but moral terpitude.
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 4:23 am
Perhaps YOU should mind your own business and comment on articles and opinions rather than attacking individuals with guilt-ridden Germanic anti-Semitism?
 

Evelyn B (63)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 4:40 am
Angie, you seem to have touched a nerve somewhere! Where does "attacking individuals" come from? Not your usual style ... I can only see a gentle suggestion here, not an attack ....

And I too would like to see some of those severe punishments (I mean the ones not dished out to Palestinians, or perhaps peace activists) - wonder what sources there are ?
 

Angelika R (143)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 4:48 am
Ah, Evelyn, never mind :-) she's only playing ^^ "Attacking individuals" usually comes from exactly that source, not from me, as you correctly observed! And, unlike her, I shall never tell her to "go away". We ALL have a right to be here and voice our opinions!
 

Evelyn B (63)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 4:55 am
:>)
I know, Angie! Even if expression of those opinions sinks pretty low!!
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 5:00 am
Laurel & Hardy. Abbott & Costello. Amos & Andy. Burns & Allen. Lucy & Ethel. Brooks and Reiner.

Well, gee willikers! angle finally made a relevant statement!

*Respect and courtesy - All Care2 Members are entitled to express their views and beliefs in a safe environment without feeling attacked. Members may not infringe on the rights of any other person to express themselves in a safe environment.

This policy includes:

Any harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, hateful, or otherwise objectionable posts.
Any posts which are invasive of another's privacy.
Name calling or otherwise attacking the person posting rather than the content of the post. Disagreement is encouraged, but you should only comment on the argument or position taken, never against the person posting their opinion or belief.
Any racial or ethnic slurs or insults relating to the mental, physical or intellectual qualities of any member.*
 

. (0)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 7:17 am
What's transparent is the HASBARA that's written right across your forehead. Straight out of the official Israeli propaganda handbook. If you and your pernicious collective couldn't be any more blatant and obvious if you tried.
Sheesh. Talk about stick out like a sore thumb. You professional whiners and inveterate liars are easier to spot than a group of Jehovah Witnesses in a mall a mile away! LOL!!
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 7:54 am
Gee, earlie, you sound an awful lot like someone else who's comments have also bored me half to death......
 

Arild Warud (174)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 8:54 am
"The rules of engagement relayed to the soldiers were the most permissive Breaking the Silence has ever heard.

Many soldiers testified that the orders that they received were to shoot to kill every person sighted in the area."

If bd is "living the truth" as she pointed out on one of Carrie's post's, why doesn't she see the truth for what it is?? Being so blinded by hate I don't think she need to remind us how wrong we are when we show our disgust for the Zionist's behaviour.

Many thanks for the article Angelika.
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 8:59 am
IDF Tattle-Tales Funded By Arab Foundation, Says Report

http://www.care2.com/news/member/904384673/3877944
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 8:59 am
arild, thanks for the laughs! LOLOL!!
 

. (0)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 9:29 am
Must be right what they say - it certainly doesn't take much to make a cretin laugh. . .
 

fly bird (26)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 12:30 pm
Thanks for sharing and posting!
 

Carrie B (306)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 12:55 pm
I can always tell when an article hits too close to home for the hasbara crowd. The mean spirited personal attacks come pouring in. Thanks for an excellent post Angie.
 

Angelika R (143)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 1:06 pm
"Externally, for those Palestinians seeking justice, the testimonies could ultimately play a significant role in legal redress for any alleged war crimes. In a Haaretz interview with legal scholar Aeyal Gross last week, ICC Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda said that her office’s current preliminary examination process into the Gaza war, “will proceed on the basis of available reliable information. We will be looking at all credible and reliable sources of information.” And although the Israeli military censor compelled Breaking the Silence to remove any identifying information from its testimonies, their credibility and detail could still prove invaluable should an international criminal investigation be initiated." (from http://972mag.com/israeli-soldiers-testify-on-gaza-war-redefining-who-is-a-civilian/106311/ which also links the full report) for DL)

That is exactly what I already suggested on another of these posts re the ICC !

What a "comfort "! o know the IDF responded that they'll "improve the rules of engagement BEFORE THE NEXT WAR STARTS" - !!-
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 1:29 pm
What does it mean when you, brucie, earlie, angle, jester, evilyn, ellie, parsleyfull.......belch out disparaging remarks regarding our intelligence, morality, loyalties, and what we ate for dinner?

Invariably, this seems to happen co-incidently with you being confronted with verified facts and logic that can't be defended with the vomitted hamasbara propaganda your mentors spoon-feed you.

At least I assume so, as you never address the comments we make.........
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 1:56 pm
carie, remember *stupid* and *liar* and *uneducated* and *rodeo clown* and *why don't you go home* and.................................................................................................................???????
 

Alexa R (319)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 2:10 pm
And this is why and how we fight back ..

We will never forget your 4 year old face and Lego tower, Daniel Trageman:


ISRAEL & THE REGION
Daniel Tragerman was killed by mortar fired from UN facility – ex-IDF chief
Hamas’s tactics of targeting and hiding behind civilians demand a change to rules of war, says Benny Gantz
By MITCH GINSBURG May 4, 2015, 3:04 pm

The mortar round that killed four-year-old Daniel Tragerman on the second to last day of the war in and around Gaza last summer was fired from a United Nations installation, Lt. Gen. (res) Benny Gantz, the commander of the army during the 50-day war, said on Monday.

“I will share with you my painful experience of visiting 75 [bereaved] families in the last four months of my service… I went to visit each and every family [bereaved by the Gaza war]. No media. Just them and me,” Gantz said, speaking in English at an Israel Law Center conference on the need to change the laws of war.

“I went and visited the civilians that were killed. That includes the family of Daniel Tragerman, four years old, that I was in the same kibbutz when they shot those mortars from a UN installation in Gaza.”

Gantz had happened to be visiting Kibbutz Nahal Oz — a community perched roughly one mile from the Gaza Strip — on August 22, 2014, when a mortar shell fired from Gaza landed outside the Tragerman family’s home, killing Daniel. The mortar shell landed outside and sent shrapnel smashing into the home. Daniel and his family had only a three-second warning between the sounding of the alarm and the impact of the mortar round that killed him.


Former IDF chief of general staff, Lt. Gen. (res.) Benjamin (Benny) Gantz addresses the Jewish Agency Board of Governors in Jerusalem, Tuesday, February 24. photo credit: David Schechter/Jewish Agency)

Daniel’s mother Gila said at his funeral that he generally displayed an “iron discipline” about the mortar warnings. On that day, he did not make it into the reinforced “safe room” in their house in time.


Gila Tragerman, with husband, Doron, at her side, eulogizes their 4-year-old son Daniel at his funeral, August 24, 2014. Daniel was killed by shrapnel from a mortar shell fired from Gaza at his home at Kibbutz Nahal Oz on August 22. (photo credit: Hadas Parush/Flash90)

The war claimed the lives of over 2,000 Palestinians, roughly half of whom are believed to have been combatants.

A UN panel last Monday submitted a summary of events affecting UN personnel and facilities during the war. The Board of Inquiry, as it’s known, reviewed and investigated seven incidents involving the loss of 44 Palestinian lives, at least 227 injured or damage at UN facilities, a statement read. The Board also reviewed three incidents involving weapons found in UNRWA schools, including instances in which Palestinian armed groups may have used UNRWA school premises to launch attacks.

A UN spokesperson was not yet able to respond to Gantz’s allegations at the time of publication.

Speaking of Hamas’s practice of largely targeting Israeli civilians and operating from within civilian population centers, Gantz said democratic countries must update the laws of war, returning to a period “when the laws of war were meant to limit the bad guys” and not a tool to be used by terror organizations in the asymmetric battles of today.


Firefighters at the site where a mortar shell landed and killed a 4-year-old Daniel Tragerman in Kibbutz Nahal Oz in southern Israeli on August 22, 2014. (photo credit: Southern Region Fire Department Spokesperson)

In the late days of the war, Hamas, frustrated by Israel’s rocket defense — which intercepted hundreds of rockets fired at civilian centers — shifted tactics, focusing on mortar rounds, which travel a shorter distance and for which Israel does not yet have an adequate defensive response.

Israel is working on making operational a laser-based defense against mortars and is weighing changing its approach to the evacuation of civilians in the line of fire. Maj. Gen. (res) Eyal Eisenberg, who was discharged after four years as head of the IDF Homefront Command in March, told The Times of Israel recently that the army would strongly consider removing citizens from the front line communities during the early days of a future conflict.
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 2:17 pm
Barbara, Israel from the beginning made for itself unrealistic expectations.

A war is not a show, that's why it is called a war. Hamas Islamist and Nationalist Arabs do not have any concept of "purity of arms", other than to kill any Jew using those arms. Arabs are using any legal and illegal method to kill Jews and to abuse the system protecting civilians.

If misguided Israel soldiers have any doubts is their way of war, they should learn how other wars are going now in Iraq, Afganistan, Yemen, etc.


 

Angelika R (143)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 2:19 pm
It is just a shame and unfortunate that the Israeli military censor succeeded in urging BtS to remove all personal identification from their report. But, presumingly they will have a copy with the original names to each statement made. I encourage everyone to actually READ the full report! Some testimony there will leave you breathless!
(e.g. "it was just for kicks, the sort of fun you have at a shooting range" - link in my comment above)
 

Angelika R (143)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 2:27 pm
How are they even to "closely examine the report and investigate" without the names in it...just wondering. Sounds to me more like a tactic for them to easily say-as they already have started to do- that's just all unfound allegations.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 3:22 pm

Dear friends - I've singed the thank you note to Lauryn Hill for cancelling her concert and noted all the relevant stories about the report by Breaking the Silence and hope that many will read these testimonies as well as all the other links provided here and elsewhere on C2.

One way of success control is the amount of highly cognitive and logical comments this and similar articles get by the hasbaratchik trolls - LOL. It can be concluded that these testimonies are hitting home ...
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 3:41 pm
When ellie, et al., resorts to name-calling it simply means that she's not as sure of her opinions as she would have you believe.
 

. (0)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 4:22 pm
Barbara D. - Tuesday May 5, 2015, 4:23 am

"Perhaps YOU should mind your own business and comment on articles and opinions rather than attacking individuals with guilt-ridden Germanic anti-Semitism?"

See under: Odious

(1) deserving or causing hatred; hateful; detestable.

(2) highly offensive; repugnant; disgusting.

~ ~ ~ ~

N.B. The above quote WILL NOT be flagged, but will stay for all to see as a perfect example of how - care2 C of C or not - of how NOT to conduct oneself in a civilized society.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 4:27 pm

I've read through the comments and must assume that some or one was flagged and, hence, deleted? I've read in a comment about "rather than attacking individuals with guilt-ridden Germanic anti-Semitism" and tried to find the relevant posting to no avail. Can someone help out - what was this all about?

Was it true anti-Semitism e.g. hate speech against all those who adhere to the Jewish religion ... or is this yet another cheap attempt to deny one's Freedom of Speech and Expression by slurring him/her with the label "anti-Semitism"?

... and ... why does the good old saying about "he who sits in a glass house ..." come to my mind?
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 4:33 pm

Hi Earl - it seems our postings crossed each other so to say. Was this slanderous remark about the "guilt-ridden anti-Semitism" addressed to you? If so - don't get upset. I've seen that you're new on C2 and, therefore, probably don't know our hasbaratchik trolls yet. Anti-Semitism et al. are always their last line of defense in front of the indefensible. So you can book it as a point on the positive side of your balance sheet as it means that you must have hit a very raw nerve and/or exposed a solid fact - LOL! That's when they go into a fit and throw a temper tantrum.

Welcome anyway!
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 5:08 pm
And here we see yet another of the commonly used tactics ~ embroidering malignments into a mesh of flowery guaze and then crying, *What? Who?*.
For instance a made-up and mispelled (if it were a word!) ethnicism will be used to denigrate the writer of a comment, but if called on it they will go to great lengths to explain why its not offensive.
It sometimes goes so far that the word anti-Semitismbeen declared not offensive. As if the goyim are in a position to dictate to Jews/Israelis what they can and cannot be offended by.

I wonder what would happen if they tried to dictate to African-Americans that the *N* word isn't offensive.
 

Rose Becke (141)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 6:39 pm
Gee Barb, your comments are so nasty
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 6:40 pm
Yes, well, don't just consider one side of the story only.......
 

Rose Becke (141)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 6:41 pm
Respect and courtesy - All Care2 Members are entitled to express their views and beliefs in a safe environment without feeling attacked. Members may not infringe on the rights of any other person to express themselves in a safe environment.

This policy includes:

Any harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, hateful, or otherwise objectionable posts.
Any posts which are invasive of another's privacy.
Name calling or otherwise attacking the person posting rather than the content of the post. Disagreement is encouraged, but you should only comment on the argument or position taken, never against the person posting their opinion or belief.
Any racial or ethnic slurs or insults relating to the mental, physical or intellectual qualities of any member.*
 

Rose Becke (141)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 6:43 pm
The above comment is for Barbra D
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 6:53 pm
rose, you obviously did not A) read my comment above or B) read the twenty odd comments I've posted that state Care2's Code of Conduct.
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 7:21 pm
Barbara,

Don't you find it interesting, that Israeli soldiers feel guilty for running the war using normal weapons and means. Lots of usual Islamist and Arab apologists are active here to cherish and publicize their report.

But NONE of them publicized ANY report from Arab soldiers, feeling guilty of the crimes they are committing: beheading captives, executing hostages, raping civilians, burning people alive, etc. Perhaps, they don't even expect any moral considerations from their warriors, or don't considers such crimes to be worthy of any guilt when these crimes are applied to others.

I don't expect Sunni-Shia, Inter-Arab or Arab-Israeli war to stop until Arab soldiers won't reach the same moral level, as their Israeli counterparts.
 

. (0)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 7:27 pm
A bit of fresh air does wonders Bob. . .
 

. (0)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 7:42 pm
Care2's C of C obviously only applies to Gentiles.
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 8:02 pm
Nyack, may be Arabs will publish similar moral appeals, or may be not. Israelis did, Arabs didn't.

With Arabs in Gaza having the highest birth rate in the world - all refugees living on our tax money - I doubt that ALL of the witnesses and participants were killed by drone strikes.

How about a statement from an Arab warrior that ate a liver from a killed Syrian soldier? Or may be from his comrads? May be something from Palestinian Arabs, desecrating corpses of suspected collaborators? Looks, like none of them is feeling that dragging corpses by cars is not appropriate. Anything from Arabs beheading Coptic Christians?

Looks like Gentiles and Goyim are quite different, depending if they follow Sharia, or not.
 

Alexa R (319)
Tuesday May 5, 2015, 11:33 pm
Barbara D, I'm so sorry to notice what you've been through on this thread, the vindictiveness, insults and slander tells me much more about them than what it says about you ..

Please keep on speaking the truth with your unique way of banter, continue to be you no matter what, there are many like me who not only like hearing your truth but who also appreciate you for who you are ..
 

Evelyn B (63)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 4:06 am
Eleonora - that comment quoted was actually addressed to Angie, not Earl. I obviously don't need to say by whom - you'd already guessed correctly! (Not that it was difficult - the insulting tone was a give-away!)
 

Sheryl G (359)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 4:30 am
Good for Israeli soldiers for coming out and telling of what they have seen and were told to do. Who better to know than those who were actually there. As it was during the Vietnam conflict, it wasn't until the soldiers started coming home and speaking up as to what they had seen and done that more support to investigate journalism took place. We now know, historically, that much of what they said is today based on fact and proven to be so. I suspect that the same will take place here.

As with Vietnam as with Iraq there are always going to be those people who dig their heels into the wrong side of history and even when it's proven beyond a shadow of a doubt they will still disbelieve. To suddenly see it in the correct way destroys, in their mind, who they are or were for many years. They'd rather hang onto the lies than see the truth, for the truth is too painful for them.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 4:37 am
You are so right, Dandelion - and the level of aggressivity reflects their level of need to hang on to the lies.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 5:54 am
Ros, if you remember, Stephen B also pointed out that newly arrived Israelis are thrown into their service with very inadequate preparation, too ....
 

Angelika R (143)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 5:56 am
Thanks very much to some later visitors and "noters" here, much appreciated!
Just so annoying and sad the thread got trashed so heavily and buried all my links, ..I'm still encouraging everyone to READ the actual report, linked at Tuesday May 5, 2015, 1:06 pm. (via another link at bottom of article)
 

Angelika R (143)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 5:59 am
Isn't it fortunate they cannot recruit newborn "Aliyah" babies to the IDF !
 

Angelika R (143)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 6:01 am
Ros, good on you for that brief tribute to your friend !
 

Bruce C D (89)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 6:25 am
Alexa, you got any more of those pre-1948 Zionist flags from Pam Geller's Islamophobic hate organization to disingenuously pass off as official "Palestinian" flags, in some pathetic ill-fated attempt to "prove" Palestine was always exclusively Jewish? You know, like the one I just debunked a few days ago and you slunk away without the decency and integrity to admit you were wrong and peddling Zionist propaganda?

The hasbara sure has an Orwellian idea of "truth."

Looking through this thread for the first time, almost all of the vindictiveness, slander and insults appear to be originating from the party claimed to be the victim. Just more Orwellian mining of the English language by the hasbara apparently.
 

Bruce C D (89)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 6:36 am
Here are a couple of interesting videos with the group Breaking the Silence. This first addresses a provocative question rather well, I thought.

Breaking the Silence responds to criticism on self-censorship and concealing the facts

This second one addresses Israeli censorship and coercion of the media, but also describes an illuminating bit about Operation Cast Lead. It is a short excerpt, with the full length version accessible at the beginning of the video if desired.

Eran Efrati Discusses Breaking the Silence, 3 March 2014
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 6:42 am
Watch out for the joy-stealers: gossip, criticism, complaining, faultfinding, and a negative, judgmental attitude.
Joyce Meyer

The greatest moral failing is to condemn something as a moral failing: no vice is worse than being judgmental.
Julian Baggini

If I've learned one thing in life, it's not to be so judgmental of other people.
Patti Smith

I don't like cattiness, or people who are too judgmental of others, or other situations.
Tyler Blackburn

There is nothing more dangerous than the conscience of a bigot.
George Bernard Shaw

He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; and he that dares not reason is a slave.
William Drummond

How it infuriates a bigot, when he is forced to drag out his dark convictions!
Logan Pearsall Smith

 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 6:47 am
brucie, NEWS FLASH, we already know the AHRF ordered and financed Breaking the Silence's *reports*.
 

Carol R (11)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 8:06 am
Thanks for think Bruce...
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 8:08 am
Barbara, I like the quote of William Drummond, but want to extend it a bit: He that will not reason; cannot reason and dares not reason might be an Arab or Islamist PR worker, simply following the instructions.

As I mentioned above: "Lots of usual Islamist and Arab apologists are active here to cherish and publicize their report.

But NONE of them publicized ANY report from Arab soldiers, feeling guilty of the crimes they are committing: beheading captives, executing hostages, raping civilians, burning people alive, etc. Perhaps, they don't even expect any moral considerations from their warriors, or don't considers such crimes to be worthy of any guilt when these crimes are applied to others. "

These Arab and Islamist apologists active on this spread and placing multiple posts one after another to make this thread more popular on Care 2 are causing great harm to Moderate Arabs and Moderate Muslims by preventing a similar discussions on the real and worse atrocities committed by various Arabs and Islamist armies and militias: ISIS, Taleban, Al-Queda, Iraqi army, Hesbola, etc.
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 8:18 am
schnoz, where did I *protest*? I thought I wrote a statement. LOLOL!
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 8:30 am
Bob, as you say, my man. The true curse of the willfully ignorant is that they can not grasp the concept that they are harming everyone else, whilst enabling and supporting the true enemy.
Then they gasp in horror (momentarily) at the next Paris or Garland or Tunis never conceiving that they not only allow, but encourage, these acts of violence to continue.
 

Angelika R (143)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 11:33 am
Thanks for those videos Bruce, have seen the Efrati one but didn't know the other, appreciated!
And, it's not "almost all of"- it is all of the insult and slander- or did I miss any from anyone other than.. ?
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 12:28 pm
brucie, I'm confused about something. Can you explain why, from 1920 to 1948, the *palestinian flag was blue and white rectangles with a yellow Star of David??? And it ain't just Pam saying so.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 2:20 pm
Bruce - That first clip answered a question I'd been asking myself! The media are saying that the Israeli government imposed the removal of identifying details of the witnesses .... but it is clear in the clip that his is Breaking The Silence policy (as a journalistic organisation) - which is what I thought. Only those who opt to speak out publically reveal their identity - of their own choice - e.g. Eran Efrati.

The story of flags is a strange one. The official flag during the Mandate years - up to 1948 - was an Ensign - Union Jack at top left, background red, with a white circle in the centre. The 1917 Arab Revolt against the Ottoman Empire generated a flag that is the basis for several flags - including the modern Palestinian flag, and Jordan's. The flag with a white & a blue (two verticle parts) background, with a gold edged Star of David was recorded in the 1939 Larousse, according to Pamela Geller ....and was identified as Palestine. There doesn't seem to be an earlier sign of this flag - perhaps it was a flag designed for the small Zionist community at that time - strange to choose a gold star, at the time the Nazis were imposing this to be worn by all Jews, but perhaps the aim was to give an alternative basis for pride? It seems unlikely that it would be in Larousse if it were a Zionist militia's flag ... But I shall be looking for a 1939 Larousse to see what information is given there.

It shouldn't really be necessary to remind anyone (except those who don't want to know the truth) - but Palestinians included Jews as well as Christians, Muslims and Druze (and Baha'i) for many centuries. Even today, Israeli Jews whose families have been in the land for centuries tend to identify their ancestors as Palestinian Jews. I've never heard a Palestinian deny the presence of Jews amongst their neighbours over the centuries. Those who deny the Palestine-based identity of any whose families were in this land over the centuries are the pro-Zionists and those who've studied recent adjusted "history" .... However, census records from the late 19th century show Jewish Palestinians as constituting a very small proportion of the population.
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 2:23 pm
I told you it isn't acording to Pam Geller..................!!
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 2:26 pm
Your ensign flag was flown on ships, not on land.
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 2:27 pm
Believe me, Palesinian Jews live strictly in the closet.
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 2:32 pm
Jewish Palestinians lived in a very small sector, whereas **arabs* lived in ALL of Palestine. We don't want palestine, we want our little sector called Israel.
 

. (0)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 2:59 pm
Israel Is Illegitimate
- - - Alan Hart.

For readers who may not be intimately familiar with English terminology, an oxymoron is a figure of speech by which contradictory terms are combined to form an expressive phrase or epithet such as cruel kindness and falsely true. (It’s derived from the Greek word oxymoros meaning pointedly foolish).

For my contribution to the De-legitimizing Israel series, I’m going to confine myself to one question and answer.

The question is: How can you de-legitimize something (in this case the Zionist state) when it is NOT legitimate?

Leaving aside the fairy story of God’s promise, (which even if true would have no bearing on the matter because the Jews who “returned” in answer to Zionism’s call had no biological connection to the ancient Hebrews), the Zionist state’s assertion of legitimacy rests on the Balfour Declaration of 1917 and the UN General Assembly’s partition plan resolution of 1947.

The only real relevance of the Balfour Declaration is in the fact that it was an expression of both the willingness of a British government to use Jews for imperial purposes and the willingness of Zionist Jews to be used. The truth is that Britain had no right whatsoever to promise Zionism a place in Palestine, territory the British donot possess. (Palestine at the time was controlled and effectively owned by Ottoman Turkey). The Balfour Declaration did allow Zionism to say that its claim to Palestine had been recognised by a major power, and then to assert that the Zionist enterprise was therefore a legitimate one. But the legitimacy Britain conveyed by implication was entirely spurious, meaning not genuine, false, a sham.

Zionism’s assertion that Israel was given its birth certificate and thus legitimacy by the UN General Assembly partition resolution of 29 November 1947 is pure propaganda nonsense, as demonstrated by an honest examination of the record of what actually happened.

In the first place the UN without the consent of the majority of the people of Palestine did not have the right to decide to partition Palestine or assign any part of its territory to a minority of alien immigrants in order for them to establish a state of their own.

Despite that, by the narrowest of margins, and only after a rigged vote, the UN General Assembly did pass a resolution to partition Palestine and create two states, one Arab, one Jewish, with Jerusalem not part of either. But the General Assembly resolution was only a non-binding proposal - meaning that it could have no effect, would not become binding, until and unless it was approved by the Security Council.

The truth is that the General Assembly’s partition proposal never went to the Security Council for consideration. Why not? Because the US knew that, if approved, and because of Arab and other Muslim opposition, it could only be implemented by force; and President Truman was not prepared to use force to partition Palestine.

So the partition plan was vitiated (became invalid) and the question of what the hell to do about Palestine - after Britain had made a mess of it and walked away - was taken back to the General Assembly for more discussion. The option favoured and proposed by the US was temporary UN Trusteeship. It was while the General Assembly was debating what do that Israel unilaterally declared itself to be in existence - actually in defiance of the will of the organised international community, including the Truman administration.

The truth of the time was that Israel, which came into being mainly as a consequence of Zionist terrorism and pre-planned ethnic cleansing, had no right to exist and, more to the point, could have no right to exist unless ….. Unless it was recognised and legitimized by those who were dispossessed of their land and their rights during the creation of the Zionist state. In international law only the Palestinians could give Israel the legitimacy it craved.

As it was put to me many years ago by Khalad al-Hassan, Fatah’s intellectual giant on the right, that legitimacy was “the only thing the Zionists could not take from us by force.”

The truth of history as summarised briefly above is the explanation of why, really, Zionism has always insisted that its absolute pre-condition for negotiations with more than a snowball’s chance in hell of a successful outcome (an acceptable measure of justice for the Palestinians and peace for all) is recognition of Israel’s right to exist. A right, it knows, it does not have and will never have unless the Palestinians grant it.

It can be said without fear of contradiction (except by Zionists) that what de-legitimizes Israel is the truth of history. And that is why Zionism has worked so hard, today with less success than in the past and therefore with increasing desperation, to have the truth suppressed.

http://www.countercurrents.org/hart050410.htm
 

Scooby Snacks (95)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 3:19 pm
The British Mandate for Palestine, or simply the Mandate for Palestine, was a legal commission for the administration of the territory that had formerly constituted the Ottoman Empire sanjaks of Nablus, Acre, the Southern portion of the Beirut Vilayet, and the Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem, prior to the Armistice of Mudros. The draft of the Mandate was formally confirmed by the Council of the League of Nations on 24 July 1922, supplemented via the 16 September 1922 Transjordan memorandum and then came into effect on 29 September 1923 following the ratification of the Treaty of Lausanne. The mandate ended at midnight on 14 May 1948.

The document was based on the principles contained in Article 22 of the draft Covenant of the League of Nations and the San Remo Resolution of 25 April 1920, by the principal Allied and associated powers after the First World War. The mandate formalised British rule in the southern part of Ottoman Syria from 1923–1948.

The formal objective of the League of Nations Mandate system was to administer parts of the defunct Ottoman Empire, which had been in control of the Middle East since the 16th century, "until such time as they are able to stand alone."The mandate document formalised the creation of two British protectorates: Palestine, to include a national home for the Jewish people, under direct British rule, and Transjordan, an Emirate governed semi-autonomously from Britain, under the rule of the Hashemite family.

"Zionist Rejoicings. British Mandate For Palestine Welcomed", The Times, Monday, 26 April 1920, following conclusion of the San Remo conference.
The preamble of the mandate document declared:

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

The British Foreign Secretary, Lord Curzon, together with the Italian and French governments rejected early drafts of the mandate because they had contained a passage which read: "Recognizing, moreover, the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and the claim which this gives them to reconstitute it their national home...

The Palestine Committee set up by the Foreign Office recommended that the reference to 'the claim' be omitted. The Allies had already noted the historical connection in the Treaty of Sèvres, but they had not acknowledged a legal claim. Lord Balfour suggested an alternative which was accepted:

Whereas recognition has thereby [i.e. by the Treaty of Sèvres] been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine, and to the grounds for reconstituting their National Home in that country ...

The Vatican, the Italian, and the French governments continued to press their own legal claims on the basis of the former Protectorate of the Holy See and the French Protectorate of Jerusalem. The idea of an International Commission to resolve claims on the Holy Places had been formalised in Article 95 of the Treaty of Sèvres, and taken up again in article 14 of the Palestinian Mandate. Negotiations concerning the formation and the role of the commission were partly responsible for the delay in ratifying the mandate. The UK assumed responsibility for the Holy Places under Article 13 of the mandate. However, it never created the Commission on Holy Places to resolve the other claims in accordance with Article 14 of the mandate.

The High Commissioner established the authority of the Orthodox Rabbinate over the members of the Jewish community and retained a modified version of the old Ottoman Millet system. Formal recognition was extended to eleven religious communities, which did not include the non-Orthodox Jewish or Protestant Christian denominations.

I wish it was still part of the British Empire, as none of these sick killings of families and children would not be happening by Israel. We would not let it happen!

Mandatory Palestine Arabic: فلسطين‎ Filasṭīn; Hebrew: פָּלֶשְׂתִּינָה (א"י) Pālēśtīnā (EY), where "EY" indicates "Eretz Yisrael" (Land of Israel)) was a geopolitical entity under British administration, carved out of Ottoman Southern Syria after World War I. British civil administration in Palestine operated from 1920 until 1948. During its existence it was known simply as Palestine, but, in retrospect, as distinguishers, a variety of other names and descriptors including Mandatory or Mandate Palestine, also British Palestine and the British Mandate of Palestine, have been used to refer to it.

 

Angelika R (143)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 3:23 pm
pretty much the same as most of us knew from ifamericansknew.. even that "birth certificate" was a fraud. But I wasn't present there, so can neither approve nor disapprove of any of the variants one can read about this..
All I can judge is the sort of actions and behaviour of the zionist entity I've seen in my life until today..and that has certainly been enough to form my opinion.

 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 3:24 pm

*I suggest you are playing pretty lose with history. You might read A Peace to End All Peace by David Fromkin. There was much more meddling by the European powers between the World Wars than you suggest. You are correct the UN partition resolution didnt confer any rights because it was rejected by the Arab States. Finally six months later Israel did declared independence. What made the declaration binding was that Israel was recognized by the US, USSR and most other countries. The Arabs States immediately attacked and after the war in a negotiated peace Israel ended with much more territory than the partition plan would have given it. Israel is just as legitimate as any other country. Would you call the US and Canada illegitimate?*

Counter-Currents is listed right along side:

American Nazi Party
Aryan Nation
Aryan Wear
Blonde on a Mission (extreme racism)
The End of Zion
Exposing the Holocaust Hoax
The Jews Among You
Jew Watch
The Last Gringo
Martin Luther King/Stormfront
The Model Minority
National Socialist Movement
N****r Mania
The SlittyEyes
Stuff Black People Don't Like
The White Only Republican

Real nice, earlie. Wanna Bud n' some smokes whiles ya readin'?
 

Angelika R (143)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 3:28 pm
Ând..I fear even more what we are YET TO SEE in the future when Nuttenyahoo's new 'settlement govt.' has been formed and sealed. ...
 

Scooby Snacks (95)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 3:34 pm
Dear Kitty flag - ger .......

You have now changed your tune, on another thread you stated that Israel and Palestine was NOT British owned.

Glad to see you are coming round to my way of thinking butter cup.

Here is how it is, especially for you oneth.....

With bells on.

Before World War Two, Haganah had been, from the British viewpoint, a terrorist organisation that used violence to defend the Jewish Agency. Haganah attacked Palestinian Arabs and aspects of British rule in Palestine. By the time Israel had gained its independence, Haganah was effectively the army for Israel. Many members of Haganah had gained military experience during World War Two – ironically fighting for the same British military that they had been attacking before the war.

Israel was attacked on the same day it gained its independence – May 14th. The armies of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq attacked Israel. With such a combined force attacking Israel, few would have given the new country any chance of survival.

In fact, Israel had internal problems regardless of what was happening on its borders. The regular army had to be used to disband Irgun and the Stern Gang. Both of these had been classed as terrorist organisations by the British in pre-war Palestine. David Ben-Gurion, Prime Minister and Defence Minister wanted the Israeli army to remain non-political and using a combination of diplomacy and force, he removed both groups as a threat. The leaders of both groups were arrested but members of them did join the army. At the height of the 1948 War, Israel’s army numbered 100,000.

Though the attack on Israel was a surprise one, Israel was surprisingly well equipped at a military level. The country had a navy and many in her army were experienced in combat as a result of World War Two. Israel had also bought three B-17 bombers in America on the black market. In July 1948, these were used to bomb the Egyptian capital, Cairo.

The Arab nations that attacked Israel faced one major problem. There was nothing to co-ordinate their attacks. Each essentially attacked as a separate unit rather than as a combined force. However, the Israeli Army was under one single command structure and this proved to be very important. Israeli victories came on all the war fronts.

The Arab nations involved negotiated their own peace talks – a further sign that they were only united by their desire to attack Israel. Egypt signed a peace settlement in February 1949, and over the next few months Lebanon, Jordan and Syria did the same culminating in peace in July 1949. Iraq simply withdrew her forces but did not sign any peace settlement.

As a result of their military victory, Israel was able to expand the territory given to the state by the United Nations. However, this could only be at the expense of the Arab population that lived in these areas.

In the summer of 1949 there was no obvious leader in the Arab world who could head a campaign by the Arabs. Egypt seemed the most likely leader if only because of her size. However, the Egyptian Royal Family was far from popular and it was in this setting that Nasser rose to power. The scene was set for almost perpetual conflict between the Arab nations and Israel that culminated in the 1956, 1967 and 1973 wars.

The 1948 war, which the Israelis referred to as the "War of Independence", claimed 6,000 Israeli lives – but this was only 1% of the nation’s population. The boost the victory gave to the Israelis was huge and put into perspective the 6,000 lives lost. Ironically, those nations that had attacked Israel in May 1948, only lost slightly more men – 7,000. However, the damage to their morale was considerable.

 

. (0)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 3:41 pm
"Counter-Currents is listed right along side. . ."

Listed by WHO? Abe Foxman?!!! LOL!!!
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 3:49 pm
Wiki WebShites.

dog, have you snack crumbs in your eyes? You're not reading well. Flagger? Should I tell everyone about the Personal Message you sent since they already know about your little ditty?
 

Bruce C D (89)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 3:54 pm
As the hasbara well knows, I'd already thoroughly debunked the Zionist flag nonsense, and they are being disingenuous. There was no official flag for Palestine during the period in question other than the one the British created for Palestinian merchant ships.

The Zionist flag was only used by Zionists (a minority in Palestine) to represent themselves and had no official standing. The Palestinians also began using a flag very similar to their current one during the first Arab Revolt. There are pictures of those from that era -- in one the Palestinian flag is flying prominently over Jerusalem in the background. Reportedly, the LaRousse Dictionary correctly describes its entry as a "Zionist" flag, even though it incorrectly shows it as the flag of Palestine in the illustration being passed around by pro-Zionist and Islamophobia groups.

Below is the debunking and links to save others from wasting their time on such inane hasbara propaganda:

Pamela Geller's racist Islamophobic organization is credited with first publicizing this obscure reference to a Zionist flag which was incorrectly labeled as the Palestinian flag in the LaRousse Dictionary. (Actually, it is described there not as the official flag but as the flag of Palestinian Jews.) Immediately, numerous other Isalmophobic and pro-Zionist sources began repeating this propaganda the same way the Islamophobic organization and Alexa did as some kind of "proof" that Palestine was already Zionist. It is a pro-Zionist revisionist bid to rewrite history that no reputable historian or vexillologist would support. In essence, this is also just another pathetic, deceitful and vain attempt by Zionists to somehow justify their ethnic cleansing and dispossession of the Palestinian majority.

Here is the truth about the flag, which no doubt Alexa and the rest of the hasbara will simply dismiss out of hand, as they do with all facts that don't support their hateful agenda:

Palestinian flag pre-1948
The flag pre 1923 was that for the Ottoman Empire: Red with a white crescent and white star. Post 1923 to May 1948: Union flag on land; Red Ensign with white roundel with the word 'Palestine' inside edge of top half.

In 1927 it was found that there was no legal procedure by which a merchant ship owned by an inhabitant of Palestine could be registered. Palestinians were not British subjects, and only ships owned by a British subject could be placed on the British Register. The Palestine Shipping Register was established, and an Admiralty Warrant of 27th October 1927 authorised, "the Red Ensign of HM Fleet defaced on the fly thereof by the word PALESTINE in a white circular field, to be used on board vessels belonging to the inhabitants of Palestine".

In 1944 the only flag that represented the area that roughly corresponds to modern Israel was the defaced Red Ensign. It was for use only at sea, and was internationally recognised as the ensign of a ship registered in Palestine. It appears Haifa was the only port ever used for registry. Introduced in 1927, it was used legally until 15th May 1948, and illegally after that.

***

The following link has a picture of the only official Palestinian flag for the period in question:

Civil Ensign 1927-1948 (British Mandate of Palestine) Red Ensign

http://fotw.fivestarflags.com/ps_gb~c.html

***

The following link displays three different versions of Zionist flags used by the Zionist minority in Palestine and flown on their merchant ships. Undoubtedly there were additional various manifestations of the same design. At times it was flown as supplementary to the official British-Palestinian flag, while at other times Zionist vessels sailed under only the official British-Palestinian flag. Illegal immigrants' ships hoisted only the Zionist flags no matter where those were registered. The link includes the version show in the LaRousse Dictionary. None of these Zionist flag versions were ever the official flag of Palestine pre-1948, any more than was a Palestinian flag very similar to the current one that was used by Palestinians since the time of the Arab revolt.

Flag on the SS Emanuel 1934

http://fotw.fivestarflags.com/il%7Dz1934.html

***

Not to add any credibility to hasbara propaganda, but the LaRousse Dictionary was apparently not the only publication from that era to misrepresent the flag of Palestine. However, this link does make clear these are merely Zionist flags used by Palestinian Jews, and not in any way official flags of Palestine:

Zionist Flags

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/il%7Dzion.html
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 4:13 pm
dog, I wasn't speaking to you...not everything revolves around you.

brucie, again nothing but empty (albeit copious!) words. When will you learn that you don't get points for disparaging your opponent?
 

. (0)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 4:20 pm
"Kill Anything": Israeli Soldiers Say Gaza Atrocities Came from Orders for Indiscriminate Fire.
- - - Democracy Now!

A new report based on testimonies of Israeli soldiers concludes the massive civilian death toll from last summer’s Israeli assault on Gaza resulted from a policy of indiscriminate fire. The Israeli veterans group Breaking the Silence released testimonies of more than 60 Israeli officers and soldiers which it says illustrate a "broad ethical failure" that "comes from the top of the chain of command." More than 2,200 Palestinians were killed in the assault, the vast majority civilians. On Israel’s side, 73 people were killed, all but six of them soldiers. During the 50-day operation, more than 20,000 Palestinian homes were destroyed, and hundreds of thousands of people are still displaced. We hear candid video testimonies from the soldiers and speak to former Israeli paratrooper Avner Gvaryahu, director of public outreach at Breaking the Silence.

http://www.democracynow.org/2015/5/6/kill_anything_israeli_soldiers_say_gaza
 

Scooby Snacks (95)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 4:21 pm
Oh, so sorry kitty, I will apologise if I have barked up the wrong tree.

Kitty quote:

"dog, have you snack crumbs in your eyes? You're not reading well. "

Hmmmm...... You must have a Siamese twin cat kitty......
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 4:35 pm
Scooby, than you for brilliant overviews.

Earl, how many Arabs were killed in Syria, 150,000 by now, or more?
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 4:58 pm


Thanks a lot, Evelyn and Earl, for the clarification. I didn’t intend to comment further as I didn’t want to derail Angelika’s thread but seeing which (all too familiar) way this discussion is going I believe it doesn’t do harm to simply post what Care2Support told Barbara D. some 7 months ago and which is all too obvious and visible in practically every thread where she participates. With a bit of a stretch of imagination my comment goes in line with “breaking the silence” ;-).

Quote:
Barbara...get it together and be a part of this community, not a divider of it.

Let us just call it as it is. Your ongoing issues with several other members on the Vaccine Threads recently...Your ongoing issues with several other members on the Vegan Diet threads recently....Your issues with the Middle East postings that you do not agree with....do you see a pattern here? All have been taken to the extreme and all have a common factor.

We all understand aggressive language and insulting conduct, my issue is...why are you so frequently at the center of it..regardless of topic? I find it an issue of conduct and you have more than proven that point tenfold.

If you cannot silence the other side or make them quit, you do not seem to want to cease or at least recognize that difference of opinion is necessary, educational and welcome here. Not nasty comments and put downs and name calling and getting your digs in at someone. That solves nothing. Things can get heated. Debates can happen. Debates should happen if we can ever expect to understand another point of view and maybe...peacefully coexist here while discussing and maybe solving them? Let everyone have a chance to speak without the aggressive tone. Please.

As adults, I know we can all pull it together and respect each other, even if we disagree, so...please do. If you cannot, just say so.
End quote

It is simply outrageous – although not surprising in the least – to see Angelika accused of “guilt-ridden Germanic anti-Semitism”. Ever since I participate in C2 and read Angelika’s often very eloquent and well researched comments I have never read a slur, slander or ad hominem attack by her directed at any member.

We often use the term ”Hasbara” which is not a slur or slander but simply using the Hebrew term to describe the disseminated information presented. If one goes by the activities of ICIC then we have all the right to use this descriptive term.

Another elaborating and insightful article with interesting links gives further information about hiring what I call “hasbaratchiks” in analogy to the term “apparatchik” – a word heavily used during the communist area. The way to avoid being called a troll is simple: don’t behave like one!

Earl – you’re new on C2 and can’t be familiar with all the members. Don’t worry – I will not give you a run down as my perception will/can not be yours. Suffice to say that all of us have made umpteen attempts to keep all discussions on a civilized and adult level in showing 1) respect to other participants even or especially when disagreeing and 2) adhering to intellectual honesty and 3) staying away from tampering with history. An outstanding example of how different viewpoints can and should be discussed are the many discussions with Stephen B. He once stated that he was indoctrinated with the polit-Zionist ideology in his early (formative) years and that he revised (if memory serves me right he said “shook off”) some of it. He is still a Zionist at heart and on a number of issues we will maybe never see eye to eye; yet we agree on the fundamental issues. But we also agree that we can disagree amicably and it is always a pleasure to exchange thoughts and views with him.

On the other hand we’ve extended a number of “peace offers” in attempts to calm down the debates to Barbara D. as threads have at times gone awry and we started showing aggressive reactions in response to her. To no avail – on the contrary; I do vividly remember that to my last one I got an … eloquent … answer telling me that this is “more rose-scented dreck”. The word “dreck” is of German origin meaning “dirt” or “trash”, integrated into Yiddish and there being a vulgar way of expression for “excrement”.

The latest one being “schnoz” in answering to Ros. “Schnoz” has its origin too in German and stands for snout, spout or muzzle – commonly used for animals and derogatory/vulgar lingo used for a person’s mouth. In the context used above it means simply: “shut up” as any German speaking person can confirm. These are just two examples of the use of Yiddish to insult and slur people who don’t share her doctrine. So … for me there’s simply no sense in wasting my valuable time with such participants, is there?

In light of the above quote of some 7 months ago it is like a slap in the face of Care2Support that of all people she puts in the Code of Conduct while at the same time violating it again and again in the very thread where she puts it up! Just take as an example what she sees appropriate to make out of peoples’ names e.g. Evelyn turns now into “Evilyn” … need I say more? But all the while crying “I/we are victimized”.

I rest my case!
 

Evelyn B (63)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 5:03 pm
Spot on, Eleonora!
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 5:04 pm

PS I just realize that I forgot to put in the correct German term for "Schnoz" - it's "Schnauze".
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 5:14 pm

Bob - it is quite interesting ... almost Freudian ... that you compare the IDF (remember: the most moral army in the world) to scumbags like ISIS which is quite obvious from your comparison:

"Don't you find it interesting, that Israeli soldiers feel guilty for running the war using normal weapons and means. Lots of usual Islamist and Arab apologists are active here to cherish and publicize their report.

But NONE of them publicized ANY report from Arab soldiers, feeling guilty of the crimes they are committing: beheading captives, executing hostages, raping civilians, burning people alive, etc. Perhaps, they don't even expect any moral considerations from their warriors, or don't considers such crimes to be worthy of any guilt when these crimes are applied to others."

Just for the records: I for one do profoundly refuse to be named in the same breath as well as being equated with them ("... from their warriors ...") as these scumbags which are created, financed, armed and trained by USrael as we all know by now from reliable and official sources. Needless to say that I equally refuse your subtle allegation of being an "Islamist and Arab apologist".

You can't help it but see red when you're confronted with people who work for peace and understanding and belief in the same HUMAN RIGHTS for ALL and for whom "NEVER AGAIN" means truly ... never again.

You better get used to the fact that our numbers are growing by the minute - see Lauryn Hill as an example. People are not willing any longer to either look the other way when it comes to the atrocities committed by Israel or nod in agreement and find excuses for something which is simply inexcusable.
 

. (0)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 5:20 pm
WOW - follow THAT!
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 5:26 pm
ellie, the numbers of vegans, and anti-vaxxers, and anti-GMO'ers, and anti-Israeli's........ yup, they're all just growing by leaps and bounds as the world moves on without them.

YOU and YOURS will play no role in the resolution of this conflict, dearie.
 

fly bird (26)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 5:43 pm
Get help / freshen up.. something foul is clogging the thread.

S!
 

Bruce C D (89)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 8:36 pm
Well put, Eleonora. Couldn't agree more -- with both posts. I think part of what we are dealing with is willful ignorance, and part of it is willful malice. That Care2 allows such reprehensible behavior from the hasbara to continue unabated for so long is appalling and bewildering.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 11:20 pm

Hi Bruce - that's a question I have been asking myself time and again: how can Care2 tolerate such willful breaking of its rules time and again and for so long? Big question mark there. You sure remember when you were offered to have your knee caps taken care of? "? I WILL TAKE A SHOT AT YOU WITH MY 0.22 CAL. RIFLE . THE BULLET IS MUCH SMALLER THEN MY OTHER GUNS . TELL ME IF I CANT BLOW YOUR KNEE CAP AWAY." Not too long ago I read a similar comment by a hasbaratchik troll that "she would take care of his knee caps" if it would concern her. Seems to be a going thing ... I was told in mails that "we will finish you off if you don't disappear" and other similar niceties.

Very much like the label "anti-Semitic" I suggest we wear such stuff like a badge of honour for exposing the truth about polit-Zionism and polit-Israel. The commen above of Wednesday May 6, 2015, 5:26 pm shows clearly with which ... level ... we're dealing with once exposed for what they are. But yes, our poor trolls are the victims ... LOL!

Stay safe!
 

Alexa R (319)
Wednesday May 6, 2015, 11:25 pm
Thank you Bruce C D, both for posting and finally acknowledging that there had been a continuous and uninterrupted zionist presence in the land of Israel for nearly 4000 years!

The Zionist Flag dates back long before 1948. Zionists have lived continuously in the Holy Land for nearly 4000 years ..

The Nazis hated the zionist flag you posted a link to earlier, they even replaced the Star of David on the Zionist Flag of Palestine with a 5 pointed star, keeping the white and blue background though.

It's nothing new that the Zionist Flag prior 1948 was so hated. It's nothing new that Zionists are so hated either, Zionist hatred dates back nearly 4000 years.

Abraham was the first Zionist since he believe that the Land of Israel belongs to ALL of his and Sarah's descendants:
Genesis 17:
3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5 No longer will you be called Abram[b]; your name will be Abraham,[c] for I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”

Even though the term 'Zionist' was only coined In the 19th century:

If so, how would we define who is a Zionist, starting from the emergence of the Zionist movement as inspired by Theodor Herzl and his associates? Here is the definition: A Zionist is a person who desires or supports the establishment of a Jewish state in the Land of Israel, which in the future will become the state of the Jewish people. This is based on what Herzl said: “In Basel I founded the Jewish state.”

The key word in this definition is “state,” and its natural location is the Land of Israel because of the Jewish people’s historical link to it. Thus my grandfather’s grandfather, for example, who came to the Land of Israel from Thessaloniki in the mid-19th century, cannot be considered a Zionist. He came to settle in the Land of Israel, not to establish a state here. This is also the rule for the ancestors of Neturei Karta and other Hasidic groups that came to the Land of Israel as far back as the 17th and 18th centuries, and who remain loyal to it. Not only were these Jews not interested in establishing a Jewish state, but they include some who saw − and still see − the State of Israel as an abomination and a desecration of God’s name.

A Zionist, therefore, is a Jew who supported the establishment of a Jewish state in the Land of Israel, and not necessarily one who actually settled in the land. Herzl himself and many Zionist leaders never settled in the land, yet you wouldn’t hesitate to call them Zionists. Even today, the members of Zionist federations worldwide are considered Zionists by us and by themselves, even though they don’t live in Israel.

Anyone who believes that only a person who lives in Israel can be a Zionist is essentially saying that today, there are no Zionists outside the State of Israel, and that’s not the case. And what about those born in the Land of Israel − are they considered Zionists based on their place of birth alone?

A Zionist is a person who wanted or supported the establishment of a Jewish state in the Land of Israel. What kind of state? Well, every Zionist had his own vision and his own plan.

Zionism is not an ideology. If the definition of ideology, according to the Hebrew Encyclopedia, is as follows − “A cohesive, systematic combination of ideas, insights, principles and imperatives that finds expression in the particular worldview of a sect, a party or a social class” − then Zionism cannot be considered an ideology, but merely a very broad platform for various ideologies that may even contradict one another.

Ever since the State of Israel was founded in 1948, the definition of “Zionist” has been revised, since we don’t need to establish another state. Therefore, its definition is as follows: A Zionist is a person who accepts the principle that the State of Israel doesn’t belong solely to its citizens, but to the entire Jewish people. The practical expression of this commitment is the Law of Return.

Ha'aretz
 

Alexa R (319)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 12:12 am
My point is Nyack,

STOP DEMANDING A JUDENFREI PALESTINE ..!!!!! Stop denying the strong zionist links to the Land of Israel.

Isn't it good enough for you already that Gaza is 100% Judenfrei as we speak?!!

Btw, my name is written Alexa ..
 

Evelyn B (63)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 1:26 am
Alexa - the only people demanding a country free of any other religion are the political Zionists, who call for "Jewish democracy" - which is an ethnocracy not a democracy. Because the Palestinians are part of the "dem" - PEOPLE. The Christian, Muslim & Druze Palestinians lived alongside Jewish Palestinians for centuries

Many Ashkenazi have no blood ties to the land between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean, no genetic link with the Hebrews who arrived there from the Chaldeas (via Egypt) to find Philistines and Caananites already present.

In the years after the Israelites occupied the land, there were times of conflict with the other peoples there. Normal - if an invading people grab land and settle on it, and make minimum effort to negociate any peaceful coexistence. Rather like what was happening even before the State of Israel was declared in 1948 - terrorise those already there, try to get them to flee ... quite a successful attempt indeed.

But there was also coexistence - and the coexistence continued largely peacefully between those of different religions who remained in the land through - and after - Roman occupation. Through centuries where Jews were but a minority among the local people.

Even Hamas revised their extreme statements of their first Charter (1988) quite rapidly, and do not call for a Jew-free country. The Palestinian leadership has long recognised the State of Israel's existence - the point at issue is the frontier line, which Palestinians (and International law) identify as the 1967 lines - but Israel refuses to provide precise border lines on any maps. Palestinians' equal human rights are also an issue.

Your "Judenfrei" concept is designed to play on Holocaust guilt, but is not based on a reality on the ground. Jews who respect Palestinians as fellow human beings with equal rights are welcomed by Palestinians - and if they choose to live as equals in Palestine, they would not be chased out. However, those who grab land, who live in settlements provided with far better basic services, and who look down on Palestinians with disgust, distrust, fear and hate - and don't hesitate to show it ... they would not be welcome in a State of Palestine.

If a viable two-state solution could be worked out (questionable, given the archipelago of isolated units left to the Palestinians within the Occupied West Bank & East Jerusalem), political Zionists would not be very welcome, but Jews who accept to be Palestinian citizens with equal rights to other Palestinians - respecting their fellow human beings - would not be chased out.

In the Gaza open air prison, the settlers chased out were there as occupiers, with no will or effort to be good neighbours to the Palestinian refugees who constitute a large majority of the Gaza population. Settlements are illegal in occupied terrirtories (under International law) - there were no native Jewish Palestinians who had remained there.

So your demand to stop demanding a Judenfrei Palestine is a load of rubbish. Both sides have at one time or another used crowd-appeal calls to drive each other into the sea .... in fact, the Zionists came closer to doing so literally, with Palestinian refugees wading out to reach boats in 1947-48 ... (Photographic evidence exists ....)
 

Alexa R (319)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 2:58 am
Biggest anti-zionist lie ever Evelyn B!!! Complete nonsense to claim zionism is not multicultural.

There are over 1.5 million non-Jews living in the State of Israel with the same citizen right as all Israeli citizens. Even Herzl's zionism was all for a multicultural society:

He included detailed ideas about how he saw the future state’s political structure, immigration, fund­raising, diplomatic relations, social laws and relations between religion and the state. In Altneuland, the Jewish state was foreseen as a pluralist, advanced society, a “light unto the nations.” This book had a great impact on the Jews of the time and became a symbol of the Zionist vision in the Land of Israel.

Herzl's Pluralist Society
 

Alexa R (319)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 3:11 am
Equally big anti-zionist lie, Evelyn B, is to claim that anyone without a link to Israel can make aliyah. The Laws of Return requires someone to proof their Jewishness before they would be allowed to return to Israel. These laws are strictly adhered to.

They are no different to the new rights of return granted to Jewish people with Spanish roots.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 4:29 am
Alexa - you clearly haven't looked carefully at the comparative rights on Palestinian Israelis if you sincerely believe that non-Jewish Israelis have equal rights - equal to the rights of all Jewish Israelis. For example, look at rights related to freedom of movement, freedom to live where they wish ...

And as Ros points out, not all Jews have exactly the same rights as the Ashkenazi.

Herzl probably would have a fit if he saw what has been done in the name of the movement he started. (Much as Christ would at what Christians do ....)

Are you saying Israel isn't a "Jewish democracy" ? Is that an anti-Zionist lie?

"Link" to Israel is flexible .... Judaism is a link .... Granted - Yemenite & Ethiopian & Somali Jews don't have the same aliyah rights ... But how many generations of Judaic culture are sufficient for European or US Jews? Bob has just spent time explaining that genetics is NOT a consideration ... it is culture & tradition that counts ... Two hasbara arguments that seem to be in contradiction ....
 

Alexa R (319)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 4:38 am
Ros G, the IDF left Gaza in 2005 ..

And the Ethiopians have the same citizen rights than any other Israeli citizen, and the right to protest if they believe that they are not getting what they are entitled to. AND they have Israeli law on their side to protect them and to ensure they are not discriminated against.

The majority of Israelis do not discriminate against them and are against discrimination towards them.
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 4:41 am
Alexa, who are you trying to kid? Just because you actually live in Israel doesn't mean that you know more about Israel than these armchair critics from Outer Suburbia who glean their information straight from the horse's mouth. They read every bit of qatar and iranian financed information they can get their hands on ~ and what better source of information about Israel than terrorist publications? Who would question their honesty and integrity?

Don't feel embarrassed or alone, though. Every Jew and Israeli who comments here has been called out and apparently we are all idiots and liars.

AM ISRAEL CHAI!

 

Alexa R (319)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 4:41 am
Ros G, there is not a single IDF in Gaza, it is 100% Judenfrei since 2005, apart from the 49 days during Operation Protective Edge last August. After these 49 days Gaza has returned to be 100% Judenfrei.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 5:00 am
Ros - someone doesn't follow information about action against Gazan farms near the barrier! Inside Gaza .... & there is unawareness of low-flying planes, drones etc - a presence almost continuously. And that "Judenfrei" word makes people react by association with the Nazis .. with fear & disgust, so reason flees. Which is, of course, why some people love to use it!
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 5:07 am
evilyn, did you get your *information* from qatar and iranian financed sources? Gullible!
 

Alexa R (319)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 5:32 am
Ros G, they gave up all control of Gaza in 2095.

Just like Eqypt, the ONLY control Israel has is that which EVERY country has, border control. Other than border control where Gaza shares a border with Israel, Israel has 100% NO CONTROL over Gaza.

Btw, Eqypt is much more strict about its border with Gaza than Israel ..
 

Alexa R (319)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 5:34 am
Oops, 2005 I meant ..
 

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 6:37 am
(Obadiah verses 2-4). "Behold, I will make you small among the nations, you will be utterly despised.The pride of your heart has deceived..."
(Obadiah verse 118)"The house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau stubble; they shall burn them and consume them and there shall be no survivor to the house of Esau; for the Lord has spoken."
 

Evelyn B (63)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 6:43 am
That's a Freudian slip, if ever!
Most countries don't block sea accesss from international waters, prevent fishermen from their livelihood activities! Imagine if Britain were to fire on French fihing boats in the Channel or the Atlantic ......
Most countries don't block delivery of essential materials for reconstruction .....

How often do you go to visit Palestinian families in a Palestinian village, just in a friendly way?
How often have you socialised with Palestinians ? Outside of an office "do" or formal occasion where it was required, but really just to get to know them, to see how much you actually have in common with them, Alexa - and talked about how your rights and theirs may be different in Israel?
 

Evelyn B (63)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 6:46 am
Scooby - I do hope they leave your "Hello Trolly" this time! I was glad to have caught it the first time .... **********

Because a laugh is precious ....

Ros **************************
 

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 6:49 am
“Read it until you can't go on. Then read it some more. Don't go back to advocating for Israel until you've read it to the end. It's not that long. Length is not the problem. Nor is language. It's just people talking. Honesty is the problem.”
-Haaretz's Bradley Burston implores supporters of Israel from left to right to read the harsh testimonies of IDF officers and soldiers on their actions towards Palestinian civilians in last summer's Gaza war, published by Breaking the Silence.**
 

Alexa R (319)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 7:02 am
Even have many organised activities and organisations who try and bring Palestinians and Israelis together Evelyn B. I am one of the teachers on the books of such an organisation who invite Palestinian children over for joined teaching and trips. These we do on a voluntary basis in our free time.

But like most Jewish people who partake in these activities, we do not blow our own horns, we even believe that by mentioning it, we detract from our efforts. Thus I share it here reluctantly as a Jewish Zionist dreaming for peace in The Land of Israel, just like many Jewish Zionists, including Herzl dreamt before me.
 

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 7:04 am
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu decided to appoint Ayelet Shaked as justice minister in his fourth government. Shaked is a Member of Knesset (MK) representing the far-right HaBayit HaYehudi (“Jewish Home”) party. She is known for her extreme, ultranationalist views.
During Israel’s summer 2014 attack on Gaza, MK Shaked essentially called for the genocide of Palestinians. In a Facebook post on July 1—a day before Israeli extremists kidnapped Palestinian teenager Muhammad Abu Khdeir and burned him alive—the lawmaker asserted that “the entire Palestinian people is the enemy” and called for its destruction, “including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure.”


http://mondoweiss.net/2015/05/netanyahu-palestinians-government
 

Evelyn B (63)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 7:15 am
That's great, Alexa! - although it leaves me wondering how you can make some of the statements you do.

But working to build understanding and real mutual respect is critical to any hope for peace-building, and every bit counts. Do you also go over to them? Or just bring the children to you?
 

Evelyn B (63)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 7:18 am
Abdessalam - exactly the mindset refelcted in a number of the witness statements about the orders received ...

It was inevitable that BN bring such people into his government, unfortunately.
 

Angelika R (143)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 8:25 am
My friends, here I come with a white flag, smbolizing peace and surrender, now that my thread with a VERY SERIOUS issue about war crimes has been turned into a junkyard and totally derailed from topic.
Thank you Abdessalam for your effort bringing it back on track!
******* to all who deserve them, they know who they are and sorry if I ran out for some.
 

Angelika R (143)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 8:33 am
This new "Settlement government" may be the first thing to fail and fall to pieces before we know it..I suggest to perhaps open up a NEW THREAD for that topic. More disaster to come, for sure!
 

Angelika R (143)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 8:39 am
In -hopefully- closing this drama thread, let me just express my hope that this report was simultaneously submitted to the ICC prosecutor where it belongs. For collecting such evidence is what the period of preliminary examination is for.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 1:29 pm
Scooby - thanks for the laugh and ********* - sad that your right of freedom of expression has been stifled. Maybe if your name would be Pam Geller or ... your comment wouldn't have been taken down twice? Luckily I too caught it in time and copied it ;l-).

Evelyn and Ros - I run out of ********

Angelika - while I fully understand your frustration ... isn't this always the case when the topic is polit-Israel? We have to read time and again the fiddled "history" to suit the needs and goals of polit-Zionism and for the umpteen times read the same old and outdated stories again. Almost fascinating though is the fact that the sole valid reason for Israel to continue to exist ... is never ever mentioned by the polit-Zionist apologists ... quite telling in itself.

Every effort to derail a discussion is made in order not to be able to talk about the topic: the war crimes of a state as well as its crimes against humanity as the state's name is Israel.

Yes, I do hope with you that these testimonies (and more to follow) are presented to the ICC prosecutor unless the whole process is downgraded to just another charade.
 

Angelika R (143)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 1:50 pm
Thanks Eleonora and all others as well who helped fight the hasbara and for justice!

Well, looks like the topic WILL BE polit-Israel for a while. to come.. so meanwhile let's live of that hope as expressed!
 

Bruce C D (89)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 1:57 pm
Alexa conveniently omits the racist part about Palestinians having no right to return to their homes and lands in Israel, from whence they originated.

Alexa also neglects to mention all the racist, discriminatory Zionist laws against non-Jews, making them second- and third-class citizens.

Alexa denies the racist, brutal military occupation of Palestinian lands recognized by the world, including the U.S.

Alexa denies the racist, heinous apartheid regime Israel has erected in the West Bank.

Alexa ignores the decades-long racist and illegal colonization and population transfers by Israel that are in contravention of the Geneva Conventions and are condemned by the whole world, including the U.S.

For Alexa, her self-serving denial and willful blindness is bliss. But we are not blind, nor does our conscience allow us to close our eyes to the gross injustices perpetrated by Israel upon Palestinians.

 

Bruce C D (89)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 2:12 pm
Alexa still demonstrates a lack of integrity and honor in failing to admit she was disseminating Zionist propaganda BS originating from Geller's Islamophobic hate organization about the pre-1948 Palestinian flag. Which lack of character is only compounded by her attempts to obfuscate while disseminating more Zionist propaganda and engaging in Jewish victimhood to detract from Palestinian victimhood at the hands of Zionism.

Like I said, we are not blind. Nor are we so easily fooled. Such transparent hasbara ploys to deceive are easily seen through.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 2:13 pm

Angelika - I hope you don't mind that I take this chance to clarify/explain what "Am Yisrael Chai" means; an expression which has been used further up. R'Levi Brackman had written about this some years ago and I just quote him below. If we compare with what the Rebbe says and what we see here and elsewhere ...

"The Jewish people are charged with the responsibility to be a light unto the nations. This means that we must talk, speak and act in a manner that exemplifies decency, morality and compassion. But it does not end there. Jews also have a spiritual responsibility. Being a good person is not enough. If our entire reality consists solely of the physical aspect of the universe and we do not tap into, or are unaware of, the deeper divine consciousness, we are not living up to our responsibilities as a nation. We must recognize the spiritual and divine dimension of the universe and then radiate that deep appreciation of spirituality and G-dliness outwards to others.

Why is it that Eastern religions seem to have the monopoly on spirituality in the Western world? The depth that Judaism has to offer in the spiritual realm is stupendous. We Jews may be alive physically but we still need to wake up and start living spiritually. When we collectively experience a Judaism-inspired spiritual awakening we will be able to say Am Yisrael Chai – the nation of Israel lives in the truest meaning of the phrase."

As the Rebbe said: "This means that we must talk, speak and act in a manner that exemplifies decency, morality and compassion."

It seems to me that most of the adherents to Judaism as well as to Christianity and Islam should every now and then re-read and UNDERSTAND what their scriptures teach them.

 

Bruce C D (89)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 2:27 pm
Israel's new Justice Minister, Ayelet Shaked:

"This is not a war against terror, and not a war against extremists, and not even a war against the Palestinian Authority. The reality is that this is a war between two people. Who is the enemy? The Palestinian people."

Doesn't appear to be any room for justice for Palestinians in the new racist Israeli government.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 3:17 pm
Eleonora & Bruce -
***************************************************
 

Alexa R (319)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 3:23 pm
Evelyn B, whenever I visit one of my best friends who lives near Ariel, I meet with Palestinian Arabs. My friend does something similar to this person:

While politicians are blabbering about peace, Ariel native Arik Dushi is making peace happen. The hummus joint he founded in Ariel, Hummus Abu Dushi – now a local institution – is run with his Palestinian partner Faisel from the neighboring town of Kifl Haris, and it’s the prime example how Palestinians and Israelis can unite over our most basic needs: hummus. He and Faisel are like brothers; their children, like cousins. His example and sound ideas, not to mention his charm and good looks, have served as excellent diplomacy for the settlements and their role in not dividing people, but in bringing them together. Aside from his entrepreneurial activities, Dushi is a father of two and Ariel councilmember. He works tirelessly to make the City of Samaria an ever exciting place to live, especially for the students and younger generation. Next time you’re in Ariel, be sure to visit him and Faisel for some rockin’ homemade hummus!
 

Alexa R (319)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 3:28 pm
By the way, for those who does not know, Ariel is in Samaria (West Bank), and my friend is a so-calked 'settler' even though he was born and bred near Ariel, has never lived anywhere else all his entire life .. Just like Arik Dushi mentioned in my previous post, he too is a supposed 'settler' in Ariel, Samaria (West Bank).
 

Angelika R (143)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 3:50 pm
Thx Eleonora. But that same Rabbi Brackman also said "[-] Iran must be stopped. If America won’t do it, Israel must. There is no doubt that we Jews will outlive the Islamic republic of Iran. But we must not allow them the capability to hurt us as they suffer their inevitable demise."

Frankly, this doesn't sound too spiritual, compassionate to me, why should the Iranians "suffer inevitable demise"?
 

Angelika R (143)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 3:52 pm
Let the people of Israel live and let the people of Iran live !! What's so hard about that.?!
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 4:01 pm

Agree with both of your comments, Angelika. I left the Iran part out as I didn't want to open the door to yet another derailment of the discussion. I didn't think it to be helpful to go into all the "evil doings" of Iran and, hence, take away from your original article even more.

Your last comment reminds me of something which is circulating in the net: "Thou shalt not kill" say all three monotheistic religions - which one of these four words are not understood?!
 

Evelyn B (63)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 4:08 pm
Alexa - I'm noting it - will do if I get the chance.
Stephen B often stresses that not all settlers are extremists; your friends are clearly among those who are not. And they are reproducing the kind of coexistence that was present in Palestine before Zionist political action disrupted it. (Not Hertzl's vision, but how political activists then used his thinking ... he wasn't even insistent on an "Israel" land for the Jews being in the Middle East ....)

Building peace will need the foundations that such collaboration provide ... there are some great musicians that also bring together Israeli & Palestinian ... and of course, the collaboration on films like 5 Broken Cameras
 

Bruce C D (89)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 4:13 pm
Alexa neglects to mention the part about the Palestinians ethnically cleansed to create racist apartheid Jewish-only settlements in the West Bank, which are highly subsidized by the Israeli government. Alexa fails to explain how ethnic cleansing of Palestinians by settlers and Israel is creating peace.

Alexa also neglects to mention that much of the settlement population is composed of more recently arrived immigrants from Russia.

Alexa seems proud and unrepentant of the fact that Israel has flouted International Law for so long that now Israel has illegal settlers in the West Bank that were born there.
 

Angelika R (143)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 4:14 pm
Eleonora, you didn't which was good.;well, I did ,yet nobody necessarily has to come walking through that door. My thread was already derailed enough, doesn't matter much... and I DO understand those 4 words, wish all others would too! Thank you!
 

Angelika R (143)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 4:19 pm
Bruce- not to mention that obviously Alexa also failed to notice things like Cast Lead, Pillar of Defence,.. or does "no IDF except... in Gaza since 2005" ONLY boots or tanks on the ground???
Deadly air droppings, devastating shellings, hundreds of dead Palestinians etc etc don't count? huh..
 

Angelika R (143)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 4:21 pm
add: (does..) mean
 

Bruce C D (89)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 4:21 pm
I disagree, Evelyn. First, I'm not really buying much of Alexa's self-serving BS. How does she meet Palestinians in Ariel or any other settlement in the West Bank when they are Jewish-only? Secondly, Zionist businesses in the West Bank are exploiting Palestinians and their resources. Is this Jewish owner any different than the owner of SodaStream? Isn't that what the BDS movement is about? Can Palestinians from the West Bank freely enter Ariel when they want and buy the Palestinian dish hummus from this supposed business?
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 4:47 pm
Why are you questioning the word of an Israeli? You don't live there, she does and you only read what you want to read about Israel.
What are you implying?
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 5:11 pm

Hhmmm - I have to agree with Bruce and Angelika, Evelyn. The story Alexa is telling us doesn't tally - there are loose ends there. You even more so than I have a pretty clear picture of how things work and don't in Israel and explicitly in the settlements. ... But it's "heartwarming" to see that the Israelis not only steal land and resources from the Palestinians but also the national dishes of the Arabs ;-). Very much like their art - didn't you a while ago post something about this topic, Evelyn?
 

Bruce C D (89)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 5:11 pm
Sheyna, why are you questioning the word of Palestinians suffering under Zionist oppression who live there, and the human rights groups (Israeli and other) who live/stay and work there?

Are you questioning the word of these courageous and conscientious IDF soldiers who live in Israel and are speaking up for human rights?

Did one have to live in South Africa under apartheid to know what was happening and to know it was wrong? Does one need to live in Tibet to oppose the injustice there? Should we just take the word of the Chinese living in Tibet with a self-serving agenda that there is no gross injustice against Tibetans?

And what Alexa is advocating is the racist notion of denying Palestinians their legal and moral right to return to their homes and lands Zionists dispossessed them of in order to maintain a Jewish majority within the 78% of former Palestine while at the same time taking over the scant 22% left over that is allocated for a Palestinian state -- much the same way Zionists took over the 78%.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 5:20 pm

Bruce - I'm running out of Stars to send you!! Here - take some **************************************
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 5:29 pm
Ros, I'm sorry, those questions were to Bruce. He implies that we are all liars.
 

Carol R (11)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 5:45 pm
A plethora of stars to Bruce, Evelyn, Eleonora, Angelika and Ros.... great, great comments! *****************
 

Bruce C D (89)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 6:01 pm
Wherever would anyone get the ridiculous idea people that habitually tell lies and engage in other deceits are liars?

That's the problem I suppose when the hasbara destroys their credibility -- they cease to be credible.
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 6:31 pm
So you say that all Israelis are deceitful and liars? How would you know such a thing? Aren't you putting all Israelis into a group and judging them? To say hasbara shows me you don't understand at all and you are the one who's nt credible.
 

Bruce C D (89)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 7:34 pm
Now, now, Sheyna. You know you're just trying to put words in my mouth that I didn't say and attribute ideas to me I don't believe, which is deceitful.

Remember that part about people destroying their own credibility I mentioned? You might want to keep that in mind before engaging in such intellectual dishonesties.
 

Bruce C D (89)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 7:36 pm
Some of the hasbara are attempting to smear and discredit a group of conscientious IDF soldiers and their organization simply because it brings to light information that they wish to suppress!!!

About the NGO Breaking the Silence and its funding:

Transparency
Breaking the Silence is registered as a public-benefit corporation and acts according to requirements for all not-for-profit organizations as determined by the State of Israel and its authorities. The organization submits reports to the tax authorities and the Registry of Non-Profit Associations as do all organizations of this type. These reports include itemized accounting of activities and sources of all donations.

We take issues of financial responsibility and transparency very seriously, and we share all our official documentation

Breaking the Silence activities are made possible through the generous support of individuals and foundations including:

Broederlijk Delen; the CCFD - Terre Solidaire; Dan Church Aid; Die Schwelle; Human Rights and International Humanitarian Law Secretariat; medico international; MISEREOR; Moriah Fund; New Israel Fund; Open Society Foundations; Rockefeller Brothers Fund; the Royal Norwegian Embassy to Tel Aviv; Sigrid Rausing Trust; SIVMO; Spanish Agency for International Cooperation (AECID); Swiss Federal Department of Foreign Affairs; Trócaire and countless private individuals who have made contributions to our work.

***

Other notable contributors to Breaking the Silence:

Interchurch Organisation for Development Cooperation (ICCO-Netherlands), Support to Israel Peace and Human Rights Organisations (SIVMO-Netherlands), Oxfam, The British Embassy in Tel Aviv, the EU, and the Spanish Agency for International Development Cooperation

About the Moriah Fund:
The Moriah Fund is a private foundation that was established in 1985 to perpetuate the lifelong philanthropic commitment of its founders, Robert and Clarence Efroymson. Their philosophy of giving was rooted in fundamental Jewish values: a concern for the disadvantaged and an emphasis on self-help; a commitment to equity and justice; and a desire to improve the quality of life for Jews and non-Jews alike.

Moriah seeks to promote human rights and social justice, help disadvantaged people gain self-sufficiency and control over their lives, foster sustainable development, and promote women’s rights and reproductive health.

About SIVMO:
SIVMO provides financial and moral support to Israeli organisations, that
*want to put an end to the Israeli occupation
*reach out to the Israeli public to raise awareness with respect to possible political solutions to the conflict
*protest against injustices committed against Palestinians
*maintain a dialogue with Palestinians and Palestinian NGO's
*work together with likeminded Palestinians as partners in peace

About ICCO:
ICCO is an inter church organisation for development cooperation. We give global financial support and advice to local organisations and networks that work for better access to basic facilities, initiating sustainable economical development and enhancing peace and democracy. We also bring together enterprising people in the Netherlands and in developing countries.
 

. (0)
Thursday May 7, 2015, 7:38 pm
On the nature of Israeli government and political identity:
- - - Haneen Zoabi

This is the only meaning of democracy in Israel– the tyranny of the majority. We allow you, we the masters– allow you to be elected in the Knesset, we allow you the freedom of expression. We stole your homeland– but we allow you to scream.

We stole everything from you, now we want to make you Arab Israelis. You are not 100 percent Arab, and of course not at all Palestinian and not 100 percent Israeli, because Israel is a Jewish state and in order to be 100 percent Israeli, you must be a Jew. And I am not. So you are in the middle, with a distorted identity. This is the meaning of democracy in Israel. Democracy is the rule of the majority…and if we have a majority in the Knesset, so any law that we pass is part of the democracy. And in Israel there is 50 laws in every theme of life that you can imagine, which discriminate against us.

http://mondoweiss.net/2015/04/haneen-answers-theodore?utm_source=Mondoweiss+List&utm_campaign=663023eb7d-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_b86bace129-663023eb7d-309259082
 

Evelyn B (63)
Friday May 8, 2015, 12:25 am
Oh Bruce I've run out of stars yet again! *************************************************************

The hasbara respect runs out for IDF soldiers who have a conscience!
And they pretend to have read all the witness statements ... some even say they made them "laugh" ... HOW can one LAUGH at descriptions of killing??? Humanity rating ZERO there ....
Read them? And not noticed that there are also statements "supporting" their orders, far from all criticising ... (Or is that what made some laugh???)

Yes - some are trying to smear and discredit IDF soldiers without even having the integrity to actually read carefully what they actually have said ....

Not really surprising .....
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Friday May 8, 2015, 1:56 am

Bruce - I can only say "touché" re your answer to "Barbara" ... ops I meant to say "Sheyna". All the hasbaratchiks have one common streak: intellectual dishonesty and trying hard to put words in your/our mouth to later claim that we are "anti-Semites". It's such a see-through and rather childish attempt; but hey! anything goes to discredit the opponents of their doctrine for lack of solid and valid arguments!

Running out of Stars again for you ... *************
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Friday May 8, 2015, 1:58 am

Well put, Evelyn; you too are over the quota for Stars *****************************

Intellectual dishonesty shows time and again but especially in this case which you summed-up so clear in your comment above. Some never learn ... LOL!

 

Past Member (0)
Friday May 8, 2015, 4:34 am
All of you spend all your time picking us and our facts apart to fit your purpose, but you do nothing to prove you're right.
 

. (0)
Friday May 8, 2015, 5:23 am
Freedom for Palestine - OneWorld

https://youtu.be/V28HnPTYz-I
 

Angelika R (143)
Friday May 8, 2015, 5:25 am
Ros..can't you see these here are also "just following orders"? ! I don't think all them are denying the report as facts but only fighting those who SPREAD it what (probably by orders from whatever side, be it their own soul) is supposed to stay in the darkness by all means... so they fight by all means.
 

Past Member (0)
Friday May 8, 2015, 5:33 am
Ros, who ordered and financed this "report"?
Angelika, don't worry about these here. Worry about yourself..
 

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Friday May 8, 2015, 6:07 am
 I here would like to draw the of those who deny the fact that Israel is an apartheid state, to an article published at " THE TIMES OF ISRAEL" on February 21, 2013 .  The article refers to Alon Liel . Who is Alon Liel ? He is a former Israel's foreign ministry director general and an ex-ambassador of Israel to South Africa. As this is the case,the man is an Israeli official who represented his country in South Africa. He lived the experience in Apartheid South Africa and Apartheid Israel. This is his testimony which was published in " The Times of Israel on February 21,2013 . Please read : 


“In the situation that exists today, until a Palestinian state is created, we are actually one state. This joint state — in the hope that the status quo is temporary — is an apartheid state,” Liel said at a Jerusalem conference about whether Israel is or could become an apartheid state. 

“As someone who knows the original apartheid well, and also knows the State of Israel quite well – I was born here, grew up here, served and fought for it for 30 years — someone like me knows that Zionism isn’t apartheid and the State of Israel that I grew up in wasn’t an apartheid state,” Liel emphasized. 

“I’m here today because I came to the conclusion that the occupation of the West Bank as it exists today is a sort of Israeli apartheid,” said Liel. “The occupation became a hump on the back of Zionism; it has now become the hump of the State of Israel.” 

There is a real danger of Israel’s occupation of the West Bank becoming an integral part of the state, he said. “When that happens, when the West Bank and [Israel in the pre-1967 lines] become one, and the Palestinian residents of the West Bank will not have citizenship — we’re apartheid,” he said. 

Similarities between the “original apartheid” as it was practiced in South Africa and the situation in Israel and the West Bank today “scream to the heavens,” added Liel, who was Israel’s ambassador in Pretoria from 1992 to 1994. There can be little doubt that the suffering of Palestinians is not less intense than that of blacks during apartheid-era South Africa, he asserted. 

‘You cannot come to an area that exhibits signs of apartheid and ignore them. That would simply be an unethical visit’ 
Addressing Obama’s upcoming Middle East visit, Liel said that just as Americans feared the so-called fiscal cliff a few months ago, they and Israelis should be aware of an Israeli apartheid cliff. 

“If you, President Obama, intend to come here for a courtesy visit — don’t come. Don’t come! We don’t need you here for a courtesy visit,” Liel said. “You cannot come to an area that exhibits signs of apartheid and ignore them. That would simply be an unethical visit. You yourself know full well that Israel is standing at the apartheid cliff. If you don’t deal with this topic during your visit, the responsibility will at the end of the process also lie with you.” 

Wednesday’s remarks were not the first time that Liel — who served as the ministry’s director-general from November 2000 to April 2001 — has condemned Israel’s policies vis-à-vis the Palestinians. Last summer, he told The Times of Israel that he supports cultural boycotts of Israel and that he himself started boycotting goods produced in the West Bank three years ago to protest the lack of progress in the peace negotiations. 

http://www.timesofisrael.com/joint-israel-west-bank-reality-is-an-apartheid-state/ 





 


 

Angelika R (143)
Friday May 8, 2015, 6:21 am
Only, that "hump" has since grown into a cancer. How long is "temporary"? WHEN does it END???
Thx Abdessalam!
 

Past Member (0)
Friday May 8, 2015, 6:25 am
Ros, if YOU make a statement, YOU need to verify the information, not me. Read first then talk.
 

Past Member (0)
Friday May 8, 2015, 6:30 am
*•In 2010 BtS published a highly tendentious book titled Occupation of the Territories - Israeli Soldier testimonies 2000-2010, which claimed to provide a counter to the “official Israeli position” on IDF actions in the territories. NGO Monitor analysis has revealed that this book was rife with methodological problems and appeared to tailor the testimonies to predetermined “analyses” that falsely claimed that Israeli actions are not aimed at self-defense but at “terrorizing the civilian population.”
•This book was later re-published under the title Our Harsh Logic and translated into Swedish, German, and Dutch. The launching of the book in the various languages served as a platform for further demonization and delegitmization of Israel, including accusations of “racism” and alleged “political assassinations” of Palestinians, claims that Gaza is still “occupied,” and implying that Israel is ethnically cleansing “area C.”

(Excerpt)
 

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Friday May 8, 2015, 7:03 am

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-2012


1 - Torture of Palestinians under occupation by Israelis is as old as the occupation itself not to mention the terrorist attacks against Palestinians in and before 1948 by the organized Zionist gangs that forced Palestinians to leave their villages,towns,homes,land and properties and turn to be refugees here and there around the world. Physical pressure ( torture ) was always used during interrogations by The GSS (General Security Service/Shabak/Shin Bet). That fact appeared in an official report issued by an official Israeli committee called Landau Commission which was a three-man Commission set up by the Israeli Government in 1987 following a long-running scandal over the deaths of two Palestinian prisoners in custody and the wrongful conviction of a Circassian IDF officer. The Commission, headed by former Supreme Court Justice Moshe Landau, found that the GSS (General Security Service/Shabak/Shin Bet) interrogators routinely used physical force during the interrogation of prisoners and then committed perjury at subsequent trials. In its conclusion, approved by Cabinet in November 1987, it lay down guidelines for the use of a "moderate measure of physical pressure". The details of the recommended methods were described in the classified appendix to the report. In 1994 the UN Committee Against Torture stated: "The Landau Commission Report, permitting as it does 'moderate physical pressure' as a lawful mode of interrogation, is completely unacceptable to this Committee." 

2 - In 1968 the International Committee for the Red Cross issued a report on Nablus Prison, one of the IDF's detention centers in the recently captured West Bank. It found: 
"1. Suspension of the detainee by the hands and simultaneous traction of his other members for hours at a time until he loses consciousness. 
2. Burns with cigarette stubs. 
3. Blows by rods on the genitals. 
4. Tying up and blindfolding for days. 
5. Bites by dogs. 
6. Electric shocks at the temples, the mouth, the chest and testicles." 
( National Lawyers Guild. 1977 Middle East Delegation. "Treatment of Palestinians in Israeli-occupied West Bank and Gaza: report of the National Lawyers Guild 1977 Middle East Delegation." ISBN 0-9602188-2-3. 1978. Page 103. quoting UN Special Committee Report, Doc, A/8089 (1970), para. 107, p. 50.) 
 
 
3 - In 1969 As'ad Abdul Rahman published his account of his ten months in Israeli prisons in Sarafand, Jerusalem, Ramleh and Ramallah. He identifies Sarafand as an interrogation center. Methods used included: being stripped naked, beating, crushing of hands and fingers, being attacked by dogs, suspension by wrists or ankles, electric shocks, cigarette burns. He also describes the "refill of a dry ink pen or matches" being inserted into prisoner's penises, and a metal helmet covering the prisoners head and then being struck repeatedly. 
( As'as Abdul Rahman, "Memoirs of a Prisoner." Palestine Monographs 51. Palestine Research Center. Beirut - Lebanon. February 1969. Pages 113, 114. ) 


4 - In February 1970 the United Nations Economic and Social Council issued a report which had two annexes containing evidence of the mistreatment of prisoners. Annex III is a medical report on a prisoner who had been so severely beaten around the groin that he no longer had testicles. Annex IV is a translation of a Swedish journalists interview with Felicia Langer. She describes the experience of women prisoner in Jerusalem. Also a detailed account of a 37 year old man held at Sarafand. He was blindfolded; beaten with rifle butts; confined in chains for two days in a toilet were he could neither sit nor stand; hung by his handcuffs; beaten on his feet, his hands, his genitals; one arm chained to the wall the other to a door which was then pulled repeatedly; threaten with large dog, electric shocks and execution. The prisoner was released after 17 days. He is quoted as saying that he had the same treatment in prison in Jordan. 

( United Nation Economic and Social Council, E/CN.4/1016/Add.4. 18 February 1970. Report of the Special Working Group of Experts Established Under Resolution 6 (XXV) of the Commission on Human Rights. Annex III : "the scrotal sac is quite empty of all its normal contents." Annex IV : Article by Staffan Beckman.) 


5 - In April 1970 Amnesty International published its "Report on the Treatment of Certain Prisoners under Interrogation in Israel." It concluded that there was "prima facia evidence of the serious maltreatment of Arab prisoners in Israel." A member of the Executive Committee said "We have rarely - if ever - had such reliable material on which to base the establishment of the fact in relation to torture taking place - or not taking place - in a particular country. 

( National Lawyers Guild, page 105.) 

6 - In 1972 the Israeli League for Human and Civil Rights, founded by Israel Shahak, issued a report on conditions in the Gaza Strip. They found that prisoners were stripped naked for long periods including during interrogation, and that prisoners had no contact with the outside for a least a month sometimes two or three. It list methods used as: a) Falaka (beating of the soles of feet). b) suspension by hands for long periods. c) holding a chair or arms above head for long periods. d) beating hands and fingers. e) leaving prisoners soaked in cold water. f) beating. g) slapping face. 

( ILHR report issued 17 October 1972. Quoted in "Political Prisoners and Human Rights in Israel. An Union of Liberal Students Report" researched by Louis Eaks. Introduction Peter Hain/Andrew Ellis. Page 8.) 

7 - In 1974 Israeli attorney Felicia Langer, and later another attorney Leah Tsemel, lodged cases with the Supreme Court against the use of torture by the GSS. 

( Catherine Cook, Adam Hanieh and Adam Kay, "Stolen Youth." 2004. ISBN 0-7453-2161-5. Page 153 )

8 - In 1977 the London Sunday Times Insight team reported that torture was being used as a "systematic deliberate policy" in six detention centers, including a special camp at Sarafand. It describes "more refined techniques" being used: electric shocks and special "small" cells in which a prisoner cannot sit or stand. 

( National Lawyers Delegation. Page 101. Quotes Sunday Times 19 June 1977. reporting on a five month investigation which identifies four prisons, a detention center and a military intelligence centre as being used for interrogation.) 
( "Stolen Youth." Page 153. Describes the report as a 4 page article by two respected journalists following interviews with 44 Palestinians. It noted that torture was so "systematic that it cannot be dismissed as a handful of "rough cops" exceeding orders." ) 
9 - In 1978 the American National Lawyers Guild identified the following: beating of feet and sexual organs; burns by cigarettes; cutting body with razor blades; standing naked for long periods in hot or cold; drenching in hot or cold water; use of dogs; withholding food and blindfolding for long periods; insertion of bottles or sticks into anus; insertion of wire into penis; suspension from pulley; electric shocks. 

( National Lawyers Guild, page 97.) 

10 - In 1984 International Commission of Jurists published a report by Law in the Service of Man called "Torture and Intimidation in the West Bank - The case of al-Fara'a Prison." They had found that detainees were handcuffed and hooded for long periods, routinely beaten, kept in tiny cells "awash with filthy water", forced to masturbate, deprived of sleep and food, given cold showers and being forced to stand naked outside in rain at night. 

( The International Commission of Jurists and Law in the Service of Man, "Torture and Intimidation in the West Bank. The case of al-Fara'a Prison." 1984. Pages 22,23. ) 



11 - The first study of interrogation techniques following the Landau Commission was published in March 1991 by the Israeli Human Rights organisation B'tselem: "The Interrogation of Palestinians during the Intifada: Ill-Treatment, Moderate Physical Pressure or Torture?" Based on interviews with 41 prisoners the report concluded: 

"A number of interrogation methods appear to be common, even routine in the group we interviewed. Virtually all our sample were subject to: verbal abuse, humiliation and threats of injury; sleep and food deprivation; hooding for prolonged periods; enforced standing for long periods, sometimes in an enclosed space, hands bound behind back and legs tied ("al-Shabah"); being bound in other painful ways (such as the "banana" position); prolonged periods of painful confinement in small specially constructed cells (the "closet" or "refrigerator") and severe and prolonged beatings on all parts of the body, resulting in injuries requiring medical treatment." 
http://www.btselem.org/english/publications/summaries/199103_torture.asp 

( Page 106 of the report, quoted in the Middle East Watch Report: "Prison Conditions in Israel and the Occupied Territories". April 1991. Pages 10,11.) 


12 - A 2009 report by B'Tselem into the Shin Bet interrogation facility at Petah Tikva, based on testimony from 121 Palestinians, stated that: "In the interrogation room, detainees are forced to sit bound to a rigid chair unable to move, for hours and even days, causing intense pain in some cases. The hygienic conditions are appalling: detainees are sometimes denied showers and not given a change of clothes and toilet paper. At least some cells reek and have mould. The food is of poor quality and quantity, and detainees loose weight. During interrogation, detainees are exposed to threats, including threats against family members, and sometimes to violence. Other severe means include exposing the detainees to extreme heat and cold and depriving them of sleep." 

http://www.btselem.org/english/publications/summaries/201010_kept_in_the_dark.asp: Page 60. 


Do we need more to prove the crimes against humanity committed by the ZioNazist entity against the people of Palestine ????????????????????
 

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Friday May 8, 2015, 7:15 am
Please ignore the link to amnesty.org mentioned at the head of my comment
 

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Friday May 8, 2015, 7:21 am
Quote of the day:
"...the reputation as the most advanced and enlightened legal system in the world will shatter, and as a country that faces international criticism every day, every Israeli should be worried."
--An unnamed Israeli state prosecutor expressed the concern of many over the coalition deal that has made far right-wing MK Ayelet Shaked the new justice minister.**
 

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Friday May 8, 2015, 7:57 am
The nature of the ZioNazist entity is a racist one not only against Arab-Israelis who might be Christians or Muslims but also against Ethiopian Israelis who are Jews,

Ethiopian Israelis’ first encounter with bias is at school
An investigation by Haaretz found that segregation of children from Ethiopian families is still widespread.
By Yarden Skop | May 7, 2015 | 8:55 PM
Last year an American foundation arranged a visit to a school in central Israel in which many of the pupils are of Ethiopian origin. The two guides were pupils, one of whom was Ethiopian. They stopped in front of some portraits pupils had drawn. The Ethiopian guide stopped in front of a drawing of a blonde, green-eyed girl and said that was her. The teachers and principal were very pleased and full of praise, not mentioning the fact that she had drawn herself as white.

The demonstrations over police violence against Ethiopian Israelis this week exposed the extent of discrimination and the rage felt by community members. The first stop on the road of discrimination is the education system. An investigation by Haaretz found that segregation of children from Ethiopian families is still widespread. According to the Ministry of Education, there are still two schools in which 70 percent of the pupils are from this community (one is a boarding school). In another 10 schools they constitute 50 percent of pupils, and in yet another 47 schools one-third of pupils are of Ethiopian origin. Even in cities with large Ethiopian communities there are schools without even one pupil from this community. Most schools they attend belong to the national-religious school system.

In boarding schools affiliated with rural areas, 18 percent of pupils (3,759 out of 20,483) are Ethiopian, even though overall they constitute 2 percent of the entire student body in the country. The Ministry of Education has for a long time refused to divulge the complete list of schools in which there are concentrations of Ethiopian pupils, so that its claims that the issue of segregation is being taken care of cannot be verified.

Community activists say that in some schools Ethiopian children are segregated into separate classes. They add that during former Yesh Atid Education Minister Shay Piron’s tenure, no focused action was taken to integrate pupils into schools in their places of residence. The ministry says there is a reduction in the number of Ethiopian pupils in schools in which they are highly concentrated, and that in new classes that open no more than 25 percent of pupils are of Ethiopian origin.

A further difficulty has been the incorporation of teachers of Ethiopian background into tenured positions. Specialized study programs were written for teachers’ training colleges, such as the Kibbutzim and Oranim seminars. At the end of their studies, graduates are assisted in seeking jobs as full-fledged teachers. The ministry estimates that over the last three years 50 teachers from this community have been placed in elementary schools and kindergartens.

Yaron Dasta, who coordinates this program at Oranim College, says, “If the ministry would add material about the heritage of Ethiopian Jews to the curriculum, Ethiopian children would feel they have something to contribute to society, showing off themselves and their affiliation. Currently, these children go through the system without knowing who they are. Those who aren’t from Ethiopia know nothing about Ethiopian Jews. The media presents it as if the community came here not out of ideological reasons. Society doesn’t recognize our community, and that is hurtful.”

The story of the community’s immigration appears briefly in a history unit in high schools, in a chapter about “waves of immigration to Israel over the last 30 years”. This is obviously insufficient. Proof of the prevailing hidden racism could be seen in a Facebook posting by a teacher in the Jerusalem area, describing a conversation in the teachers’ room. One teacher states that Ethiopians come from a backward country, while another says that her family worked hard to reach where they are now but “what are they [the Ethiopians] doing for themselves?” Others complained that nothing comes out of all the investment in these children.

One graduate of the program for training Ethiopian teachers says that she was automatically referred to work with Ethiopian immigrants even though she was fully qualified to work in any school.

Another teacher of Ethiopian origin who teaches science at an elementary school says that “children are exposed only to white-skinned teachers, but they hear about violent incidents involving Ethiopians on TV and no one examines these issues with them. Stories of immigrant communities exclude the Ethiopians. School books aren’t diverse enough, with no pictures of dark-skinned children.”


http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel/.premium-1.655487

 

Past Member (0)
Friday May 8, 2015, 8:07 am
Anyone who reads Ha'aretz is likely foolish enough to believe it. As they say you get what you pay for and Ha'aretz is one of those free giveaways you find in stands on street corners.
 

Angelika R (143)
Friday May 8, 2015, 8:11 am
Why ignore the AI link, the correct one for the latest report says just as much. The war crimes in Gaza during Protective Edge are indisputed.

Amnesty International Report 2014/15- Israel and Occupied Palestinian Territories
 

Past Member (0)
Friday May 8, 2015, 9:11 am
Criticism of Amnesty International (AI) includes claims of selection bias, ideological/foreign policy bias against either non-Western countries, or Western-supported countries and AI's policies relating to organisational continuity. Governments who have criticised AI include those of Israel, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, China, Vietnam, Russia and the United States, who have attacked Amnesty International for what they assert is one-sided reporting or a failure to treat threats to security as a mitigating factor. The actions of these governments — and of other governments critical of Amnesty International — have been the subject of human rights concerns voiced by Amnesty.
In February 2011, newspaper stories in the UK revealed that Irene Khan had received a payment of UK £533,103 from Amnesty International following her resignation from the organisation on 31 December 2009,[10] a fact discovered in Amnesty's records for the 2009–2010 financial year. The sum paid to her was in excess of four times her annual salary of £132,490.[10] The deputy secretary general, Kate Gilmore – who also resigned in December 2009 – received an ex-gratia payment of £320,000.[10][11] Peter Pack, the chairman of Amnesty's international executive committee, said on 19 February 2011, "The payments to outgoing secretary general Irene Khan shown in the accounts of AI (Amnesty International) Ltd for the year ending 31 March 2010 include payments made as part of a confidential agreement between AI Ltd and Irene Khan."[11] and that "It is a term of this agreement that no further comment on it will be made by either party."[10] On 21 February Pack issued a further statement, in which he said that the payment was a "unique situation" that was "in the best interest of Amnesty’s work" and that there would be no repetition of it.[10] He stated that "the new secretary general, with the full support of the IEC, has initiated a process to review our employment policies and procedures to ensure that such a situation does not happen again."[10] Pack also stated that Amnesty was "fully committed to applying all the resources that we receive from our millions of supporters to the fight for human rights".[10] In a letter to the "movement" dated 25 February, Pack offered additional details, which in turn had been made public by Amnesty International Netherlands.[12] According to this statement Irene Khan, being reluctant to retire at the end of her second term, the International Executive Committee offered her additional termination benefits, payment of back salary, bonuses and other inducements to leave. UK employment law offering additional protections to fixed-term employees had given Khan leverage to ask for termination benefits. The alternatives, according to Pack, would have been her continuation in office, or an official dismissal which might have led to litigation.
In 2007, AI stated that it reports disproportionately on relatively more democratic and open countries.[13] AI's intention is not to produce a range of reports such that the number of reports on a country correlates precisely with the number and severity of its human rights abuses. Instead, its aim is: (a) to document what it can, to (b) produce pressure for improvement. These two factors skew the number of reports towards more open and democratic countries, because information is more easily obtainable, these countries have usually made strong claims and commitments to uphold human rights, and their governments are more susceptible to public pressure. AI also focuses more heavily on states than to other groups. This is due in part to the responsibility states have to the citizens they claim to represent
Critics have also pointed out that AI had a role propagating disinformation in a press release before the 1991 Gulf War, in which it claimed that Iraqi soldiers were responsible for the deaths of "scores of civilians, including newborn babies, who died as a direct result of their forced removal from life-support machines."[15] It later transpired that this claim was a propaganda hoax, and AI's press release was used in the opening salvo of this propaganda campaign – U.S. President George H. W. Bush showed AI's press release on a prime time interview. Prof. Francis Boyle, an AI USA director at the time, gives a detailed insider account of the way the AI press release was handled.[16] The normal process of double-checking and consultation was short-circuited in a rush to issue the press release. In an April 1991 statement, AI said that although its team was shown alleged mass graves of babies, it was not established how they had died and the team found no reliable evidence that Iraqi forces had caused the deaths of babies by removing them or ordering their removal from incubators.[
Elliott Abrams, writing about the November 2012 Operation Pillar of Defense, says that AI treats "Hamas and other terrorist groups" "with an 'evenhandedness' that bespeaks deep biases," citing NGO Monitor's detailed research.[23]

The Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs criticised the May 2012 report on administrative detention saying it was "one sided,” and “not particularly serious,” and "that it seemed little more than a public relations gimmick.” Gerald Steinberg, of NGO Monitor, said that the report was tied to the recent Palestinian hunger strikes and that AI “jumped on the bandwagon to help their Palestinian allies.”[24] Steinberg also said that one of the researchers, Deborah Hyams was not a neutral party, saying that “Hyams has volunteered as a ‘human shield’ in Beit Jala (near Bethlehem) to deter Israeli military responses to gunfire and mortars targeting Jewish civilians in Jerusalem,” and that “in 2008 she signed a letter claiming Israel is 'a state founded on terrorism, massacres and the dispossession of another people from their land
In May 2012, NGO Monitor criticized AI's 2012 World Report in a few areas:
AI criticized Israel's blockade on Gaza without mentioning that the blockade was in place "to stop the smuggling of weapons and rockets used to target Israeli citizens." NGO Monitor continued and said that "UN Secretary General’s Palmer Committee declared in September 2011 that the blockade is legal under international law."AI "failed to mention the thousands of tons of goods provided by Israel to Gaza each week."NGO Monitor also pointed out that AI's report "mentions Israel 137 times, while making only 74 mentions of the Syrian regime," during a year in which thousands of people have been killed by the Syrian government
Alan Dershowitz, professor of law at Harvard University, in his book The Case for Israel, is very critical of AI and their comparison of Israel to nations such as Sudan and other offenders of human rights. Amnesty International has consistently called on Israel to bring any officer suspected of human rights violations to justice and to remove its settlements in the West Bank. It has also opposed "discrimination" against Arab citizens of Israel, and says that the Law of Return and Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law are discriminatory, as they grant automatic citizenship to Jews worldwide, while denying Palestinian refugees the right of return. It has also opposed the blockade of the Gaza Strip, calling it "collective punishment

University of Illinois professor of international law Francis Boyle, who spent several years as an Amnesty International USA Board member, claimed that aspects of organisational continuity and survival came ahead of human rights aims. He stated "Amnesty International is primarily motivated not by human rights but by publicity. Second comes money. Third comes getting more members. Fourth, internal turf battles. And then finally, human rights, genuine human rights concerns."[1]*

 

Bruce C D (89)
Friday May 8, 2015, 11:00 am
Sheyna/Barbara D. uses information from NGO Monitor to cast aspersions on respected human rights organizations. NGO Monitor is nothing more than a propaganda arm of the Israeli government and right-wing illegal Israeli settlement groups. The founder and director of NGO Monitor served in two Israeli government posts while leading the organization. It only concentrates on human rights groups and their criticism of Israel, and its sole purpose is to discredit them, often using misleading, incomplete information.

***

"NGO Monitor is an extreme right-wing group with close ties to the Israeli government, military, West Bank settlers, a man convicted of misleading the US Congress, and to notoriously Islamophobic individuals and organizations in the United States."

NGO Monitor was captured perfectly in The Forward by liberal Jewish thinker Leonard Fine who said it was “an organization that believes that the best way to defend Israel is to condemn anyone who criticizes it.”

The Jerusalem-based organization poses as a project concerned with accountability for nongovernmental organizations (NGOs), but as Israeli human rights activist and journalist Didi Remez has stated, "NGO Monitor is not an objective watchdog: It is a partisan operation that suppresses its perceived ideological adversaries through the sophisticated use of McCarthyite techniques -- blacklisting, guilt by association and selective filtering of facts" ("Bring on the transparency," Haaretz, 26 November 2009).

In a 6 November article in The Jerusalem Post, NGO Monitor president Gerald Steinberg revealed that his group was part of a new "Israel Action Network" established by the Jewish Federations of North America (JFNA) and the Jewish Council of Public Affairs (JCPA) ("Turning the tables on BDS," The Jerusalem Post, 6 November 2010).

NGO Monitor -- as a glance at its publications reveals -- characterizes any documentation of, or call for an end to Israel's systematic human rights abuses, violent colonization of the occupied West Bank including Jerusalem, or its siege and amply documented war crimes and crimes against humanity in Gaza as "hate," "incitement" and/or "anti-Semitism."

NGO Monitor is closely tied to Israel's far-right, its government and military as well as leading anti-Palestinian and anti-Muslim activists in the United States.

NGO Monitor states on its website that it is "a joint venture of the Institute for Contemporary Affairs, founded jointly with the Wechsler Family Foundation, and B'nai B'rith International."

Among NGO Monitor's International Advisory Board are some unusual choices for an organization focused on accountability. In addition to Alan Dershowitz and Elie Wiesel (who has gone on record saying he can never criticize Israel), there is former CIA chief and pro-Iraq-war activist James Woolsey, and Elliott Abrams. Abrams was convicted in 1991 of withholding information from the United States Congress in the Iran-Contra affair in which he was deeply involved as an official in the Reagan administration.

As deputy national security advisor during the administration of George W. Bush, Abrams was the architect of covert US policies intended to overturn the January 2006 Palestinian legislative elections by arming Palestinian militias opposed to Hamas, which had won the vote. Abrams' policies led to a Palestinian civil war that cost hundreds of lives (David Rose, "The Gaza Bombshell," Vanity Fair, April 2008).

NGO Monitor's "Legal Advisory Board" includes former Israeli ambassador Alan Baker, who as an Israeli government official spent years publicly defending Israel's violations of international law, including its settlements in occupied territory, which are nominally opposed by all EU governments, including the Netherlands.

Cementing the link even more closely, NGO Monitor recently published a joint report with its partner the Institute for Zionist Strategies entitled "Trojan Horse: The Impact of European Government Funding for Israeli NGOs." The Institute for Zionist Strategies, as Didi Remez has pointed out, is led by Israel Harel, a founder of the fanatical Gush Emunim settler movement.

While NGO Monitor is increasingly frank that its goal is to shut down open discussion of Israel's human rights abuses, it claims that it exists to promote "accountability" and transparency. But this transparency does not extend to itself or its political allies.

Some information is available about NGO Monitor's funding, but the organization does not release the names of all its donors nor the amounts they gave -- even as it insists that others should do so. In addition to the Wechsler Foundation, NGO Monitor lists among its "major donors," Daniel Pipes' Middle East Forum Education Project. Pipes has been widely criticized for purveying anti-Muslim and anti-Arab propaganda, including by United States Senator Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) who opposed Pipes' 2003 appointment by President George W. Bush to the board of the United States Institute for Peace ("Daniel Pipes nomination stalled in committee," The Baltimore Chronicle, 23 July 2003).

NGO Monitor also lists a US tax-exempt organization called American Friends of NGO Monitor (AFNGOM) among its "major donors." While AFNGOM received its recognition as a tax-exempt non-profit in early 2009, there was -- as of late 2010 -- still no legally-required, public Form 990 for 2009 available for the group on the Guidestar.org website, the information clearinghouse for US non-profits (According to Guidestar, a 990 should appear on its website approximately two months after being filed).

Among AFNGOM's board members is Rita Emerson. Emerson and her husband Steven Emerson are prominent in the US pro-Israel, anti-Muslim community and often make donations to pro-Israel causes.

They jointly fund the "Emerson Fellowships" for the anti-Palestinian advocacy group Stand With Us (which works closely with the Israeli military to organize speaking tours for Israeli soldiers on North American college campuses) and are both substantial donors to the Technion Israel Institute of Technology. "Their most passionate concerns include cancer research, the defense of Israel on campus and in the media, and the struggle against the global Jihad," is how the couple was described in the program of a 2007 dinner for the American Freedom Alliance.

The Emersons have done very well financially from incitement against Muslims. A recent investigative report by The Tennessean newspaper found that in 2008 Steven Emerson paid his own for-profit company $3.4 million in fees from a non-profit charity he founded, which, according to the newspaper "solicits money by telling donors they're in imminent danger from Muslims."

According to The Tennessean, Emerson's non-profit effectively acts as a front for a lucrative for-profit venture ("Anti-Muslim crusaders make millions spreading fear," The Tennessean, 24 October 2010). Unusually, the non-profit's 990 forms do not list any staff, board members or salaries except for Steven Emerson who is the organization's sole officer.

Yet a search of NGO Monitor's website found no page dedicated to exposing the lack of transparency of the Emersons' multimillion dollar "non-profit" business.

NGO Monitor evinces a similar lack of concern for transparency when it comes to extremist Israeli groups. As Didi Remez points out, "Hundreds of millions of dollars in Israeli taxpayer money and US tax exemptions, mostly hidden from public view, are the driving force of the settlement enterprise," including organizations such as Elad which are behind the current efforts of Israeli settlers to expel Palestinians from certain neighborhoods in occupied East Jerusalem ("Bring on the transparency").

Remez notes that while most of the Israeli dissenting and human rights groups NGO Monitor targets already meet high standards of fiscal transparency, the settler groups do not. Settler groups, Remez observes, "depend on financial opacity for continued operations." NGO Monitor has never said a word about it.

 

Past Member (0)
Friday May 8, 2015, 11:05 am
Apparently it works for you. And no, I am not my cousin.
 

Angelika R (143)
Friday May 8, 2015, 11:30 am
Thx Bruce for posting that info which I had myself thought of doing, then abstained. Even a brief look at that website clearly shows their origin and intention and proved my suspicion.
Funny how you got the same idea as I had about some friends here...
 

. (0)
Friday May 8, 2015, 11:58 am
"Haaretz - Israeli News source."

"Haaretz.com is the world's leading English-language Website for real-time news and analysis of Israel and the Middle East."
http://www.haaretz.com/

"Haaretz is Israel's oldest daily newspaper. It was founded in 1918 and is now published in both Hebrew and English."

"An independent newspaper of record, some commentators state that it plays the role in Israel that The New York Times plays in the United States."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haaretz

That certainly doesn't sound like some old rag "given out on street corners" to ME.
 

Angelika R (143)
Friday May 8, 2015, 12:33 pm
Nuttenyahoo himself once declared the paper one of the state's top enemies :-) go figure.
 

Past Member (0)
Friday May 8, 2015, 1:08 pm
Ha'aretz is so good they can't give it away fast enough. Except to people who forgot to bring something to sit on when they go to the beach. Americans would know it as the National Enquirer or Today's Truth.
 

. (0)
Friday May 8, 2015, 1:22 pm
I think you'll find that the National Inquirer is a million miles away from: (Ha'aretz) - "An independent newspaper of record, some commentators state that it plays the role in Israel that The New York Times plays in the United States."
 

Evelyn B (63)
Friday May 8, 2015, 2:04 pm
Ros - that Redgum song is so powerful ...
And LOL the inappropriate one! ********************************************************************

As for other comments - some 90% of those accusing of hate appear to be looking in mirrors and transferring the hate they see there to those who don't share their point of view. In this thread, and a number of others.
 

Alexa R (319)
Friday May 8, 2015, 10:35 pm
Israel is not an Apartheid State, that is one of the most twisted lies out there, only someone wallowing in hatred for Israel would subscribe to such an utterly false notion:

The apartheid theme was projected strongly in Haaretz, Israel's liberal newspaper. The writer, Gideon Levy, is famed for his exposes of the evils of occupation; he is also one of the small, perhaps tiny, number of Israeli journalists and academics who seek to pin the "apartheid" tag on Israel.

He wrote that, "a sweeping 74% majority is in favour of separate roads for Israelis and Palestinians in the West Bank". But the sentence that follows needs to be noted: 24% believed separate roads were "a good situation" and 54% believed they were "a necessary situation". Decoded, this gets to the heart of the issue of the separate roads which Israel has built for some settlements. Critics say this is apartheid. But as the 54% indicate, they see it as a security issue; that is, it is the (expensive and extravagant) way to counter drive-by and roadside shootings which have killed many settlers. Nor (and this is little understood) are the roads only for Jews: the cars allowed on it are those with Israeli black and yellow number plates, irrespective of whether the driver is an Israeli Jew or Arab; the barred cars are those with Palestinian green and white plates.

Levy's report said that the survey had been commissioned by the US-based New Israel Fund's Yisraela Goldblum Fund. But the New Israel Fund, a major player in fostering equality and democracy in Israel, quickly announced that it had nothing to do with the survey. With equal speed its deputy communications director, Noam Shelef, wrote in New York's Daily Beast that the survey actually shows that Israelis want to separate themselves from the West Bank: "So, claiming the poll demonstrates support for 'apartheid' is spin at its worst." He said it "seems to amount to a misrepresentation of the data".

Whatever attitudes might be claimed for Israel's Jewish public the situation on the ground does not support accusations of apartheid. The Arab population, some 20%, certainly suffers discrimination but to liken their lot to apartheid South Africa is baseless, indeed ridiculous. Arabs have the vote, which in itself makes them fundamentally different from South Africa's black population under apartheid. And even the current rightwing government says that it wants to overcome Arab disadvantage and promises action to upgrade education and housing and increase job opportunities. Of course time will show how genuine it is.

The West Bank is a linked but separate issue: it's a military occupation which, in its nature, is violent and discriminatory. Trying to put an erroneous apartheid label on it confuses and distorts and is propagandistic.

Why do I dismiss the apartheid analogies so emphatically? Because I straddle both apartheid South Africa and Israel today and have knowledge of the good and the ill in both societies.

The Guardian

STOP THE APARTHEID AGAINST JEWISH PEOPLE!! BY STOPPING TO DEMAND A JUDENFREI PALESTINE!!!
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 4:20 am
We wrap our garbage in Ha'aretz, Earl. That's how much real Israelis think of it.
 

. (0)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 5:32 am
Surely like any other reader of a newspaper - you BUY it to READ and THEN wrap your garbage up in it.
 

Angelika R (143)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 5:57 am
How proud Ha'aretz can be being read even in Montana!
 

Evelyn B (63)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 6:35 am
And then put to further good use ....?!
 

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 9:12 am
Angelica commented " Why ignore the AI link, the correct one for the latest report says just as much. The war crimes in Gaza during Protective Edge are indisputed.

Amnesty International Report 2014/15- Israel and Occupied Palestinian Territories "

Exactly. I was posting the link to AI 2014 /2015 report when something wrong happened to my pc> What I wanted to say was that the crime is still going on till this moment not only according to the report referred to in the link I provided by the latest report as well. Thanks Angie for posting the link.
 

Angelika R (143)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 10:24 am
Abdessalam, I figured that and only wanted it exposed and ready fo all others! Thanks to you too!
 

Angelika R (143)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 10:25 am
Abdessalam, I figured that and only wanted it exposed and ready fo all others! Thanks to you too!
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 11:45 am
Eleonora, your own quote should give you an idea of how long your trash has been going on, and that doesn't even include Carrie's and jess's posts from far over a year ago.
We had the good sense to save certain remarks and references too. You ask how it is that Care2 tolerates this, but notice that when you have a flag campaign we disappear. Care 2 will very rarely even delete YOUR most vulgar, crass, and vile comments. And filthy PM,s.
Isn't it fun that you can have all the fun you want with no penalty?
So what are you kvetching about? (Used in the correct sense.)
I sure you track the columns, so I will wait for your prompt answer.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 1:03 pm
We've seen mis-attributed comments cited by certain C2NN members in the past - somehow continuing the pattern of twisting truth in order to "justify" their own hate & aggression.

We've seen cases where false flagging got people (Jess, for example) banned (but fortunately Care2 investigated & corrected rapidly ......)

We don't have to go far to find a small handful who chase around seeking to express insults & hate ... and then believing that they are victims of intolerance, hate & racism ... because others do not necessarily endorse their versions of history & culture ... and won't allow themselves to be turned into the images that are being projected, but continue to stand for human rights including those of the Palestinians .... and of Muslims (the large majority of whom are not Islamists ... even those who actively practice Islam).

A number of us who've often been attacked & insulted have learnt to check out carefully so-called quotes of the past! They tend to be an inaccurate as the versions of history presented by the same people here. (I've been accused of making comments that turned out to have a) been taken completely out of context, & b) never been made by me! )

So I would advise anyone accused of making statements that they find unlikely to do a search .... and find the original comments, the context & who actually said what .... in reply to what .... and post the correct version below the accusations.

Such lies do become excessively boring.
 

Angelika R (143)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 1:09 pm
"exessively boring" is quite the charming understatement! Thx Evelyn!
 

Evelyn B (63)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 2:00 pm
By the way - an interesting example of another hasbara attempt at using lies can be seen in anothe newspaper's coverage (UK The Independent 'Fire at every person you see': Israeli soldiers reveal they were ordered to shoot to kill in Gaza – even if the targets may have been civilians)

"“Today, as in the past the organisation ‘Breaking the Silence’ has been asked to provide any evidence or testimony related to IDF activities prior to publication, in order for genuine investigations to be carried out. Unfortunately, as in the past, ‘Breaking the Silence’ has refused to provide the IDF with any proof of their claims.”

In a letter seen by The Independent, Breaking the Silence approached the IDF on 23 March. The group wrote to the IDF chief of staff, Gadi Eizenkot, requesting a meeting. “With the completion of the first stage of gathering testimonies from the combatants from Operation Protective Edge, and in the light of the severity of the facts described in the [testimonies], we ask to present the findings to you, urgently,” the letter says.

The group says that it approached soldiers to interview, and that it rejected the testimony of some on the grounds that it was unreliable. Included in that number is a new Israeli MP from Mr Netanyahu’s Likud party, Oren Hazan, who approached the group with the intention of giving false testimony with the aim of discrediting the organisation. Mr Hazan did not take part in the conflict."

For those interested - this is an article you might want to read ...

For those who want to believe that the whole Breaking The Slience report is paid-for propaganda and that so many IDF soldiers can easily be "bought" - please don't bother to read it - you'll only be further upset, and want to do more insulting of others .....
 

Angelika R (143)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 2:12 pm
Thanks Evelyn, I read it before. Typically, the not so independent MSM ONLY SENT THAT FIRST PARAGRAPH through the airwaves. ://
 

Scooby Snacks (95)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 2:13 pm
Back by popular demand, if this get deleted I will eat my hat, I don't know why this will get deleted, it is just a song.

Please change Dolly to Trolly




Dolly'll, never go away again

I feel the room swayin' while the band's playin'
One of your old favourite songs from way back when
So golly, gee, fellas have a little faith in me, fellas
Dolly'll, never go away, promise you never go away
Dolly'll, never go away again
 

Scooby Snacks (95)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 2:18 pm
I said hello, dolly,...... Well, hello, dolly
It's so nice to have you back where you belong
You're lookin' swell, dolly....... I can tell, dolly
You're still glowin'... You're still crowin'... You're still goin' strong
I feel that room swayin'...... While the band's playin'
One of your old favourite songs from way back when
So..... Take her wrap, fellas....... Find her an empty lap, fellas
Dolly'll never go away again

[Instrumental]

I said hello, dolly,..... Well, hello, dolly
It's so nice to have you back where you belong
You're lookin' swell, dolly..... I can tell, dolly
You're still glowin'... You're still crowin'... You're still goin' strong
I feel the room swayin'... While that ole band keeps on playin'
One of your old favourite songs from way back when
So... Golly, gee, fellas.... Find her an empty knee, fellas
Dolly'll never go away.... I said she'll never go away
Dolly'll never go away again
 

Evelyn B (63)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 2:36 pm
See also 'From what we knew, that area was supposedly devoid of civilians': The testimonies of Israeli soldiers provided to Breaking the Silence

?Where in the heck did they think the civilians could have gone? ... given the small area of Gaza, the blockade, and at least 1.7 millian inhabitants trapped in Gaza ...........
 

Evelyn B (63)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 2:44 pm
In support of Scooby's sharing a lovely song ....
Louis Armstrong - Hello Dolly Live

(Just remember to adjust your hearing aids ... TR, not D ....)
 

Alexa R (319)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 3:19 pm
Evelyn, how about the civilians going inside the Gaza Terror Tunnels?

These had exit or entry holes in private homes, mosques, schools, hospitals, you name it .. It was a whole underground labyrinth..

The terror tunnels did not save even a single Gaza civilian's life ..

In Israel we ran to bomb shelters sometimes so many times a day that it would have made better sense to have stayed in the bomb shelters the whole day ..

War is not pretty and it was horrible for those Israeli families whose family members did not all make it in time for the bomb shelters..
 

Scooby Snacks (95)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 3:28 pm
Alexa
You quote on your profile page live and let others live, so please vetch for Palestines to live, don't be a troll dolly.
 

Angelika R (143)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 3:51 pm
Maybe with less govt. propaganda and hype about Gaza rocket fire-which hardy ever hit anywhere to harm civilians- less Israelis would have gotten so horrified and traumatized about shelter runs ? To be clear, i am herewith NOT apologizing Hamas' indiscriminate firing and I DO consider that a war crime as well, while I acknowledge their rightful resistance at the same time!

But one has to wonder why Israel didn't simply seal those tunnels that ended on its territory? Instead, preferred a maniac race trying to destroy them which failed anyway after all. the main use of these tunnels were LIFE LINES for Palestinians to get those goods Israel denied them! Even spices for their food.
 

. (0)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 3:53 pm
When the Jews dug tunnels to smuggle food and weapons into the Warsaw Ghetto, it was an act of justified resistance. When the Palestinians dig tunnels to smuggle food and weapons into the Gaza Ghetto, it is terrorism. . .
 

Angelika R (143)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 4:00 pm
You saifd it Earl! ! *******
 

. (0)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 4:13 pm
YEP - that just about sums up the twisted mindset that we're dealing with here.
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 4:20 pm
*The fact that these sparsely populated areas exist in the Gaza Strip raises several important moral questions: First, why don't the media show the relatively open areas of the Gaza Strip? Why do they only show the densely populated cities? There are several possible reasons. There is no fighting going on in the sparsely populated areas, so showing them would be boring. But that's precisely the point—to show areas from which Hamas could be firing rockets and building tunnels but has chosen not to. Or perhaps the reason the media doesn't show these areas is that Hamas won't let them. That too would be a story worth reporting.

Second, why doesn't Hamas use sparsely populated areas from which to launch its rockets and build its tunnels? Were it to do so, Palestinian civilian casualties would decrease dramatically, but the casualty rate among Hamas terrorists would increase dramatically.

That is precisely why Hamas selects the most densely populated areas from which to fire and dig. The difference between Israel and Hamas is that Israel uses its soldiers to protect its civilians, whereas Hamas uses its civilians to protect its terrorists. That is why most of Israeli casualties have been soldiers and most of Hamas' casualties have been civilians. The other reason is that Israel builds shelters for its civilians, whereas Hamas builds shelters only for its terrorists, intending that most of the casualties be among its civilian shields.

The law is clear: using civilians as human shields—which the Hamas battle manual mandates—is an absolute war crime. There are no exceptions or matters of degree, especially when there are alternatives. On the other hand, shooting at legitimate military targets, such as rockets and terror tunnels is permitted, unless the number of anticipated civilian casualties is disproportionate to the military importance of the target. This is a matter of degree and judgment, often difficult to calculate in the fog of war. The law is also clear that when a criminal takes a hostage and uses that hostage as a shield from behind whom to fire at civilians or police, and if the police fire back and kill the hostage, it is the criminal and not the policeman who is guilty of murder. So too with Hamas: when it uses human shields and the Israeli military fires back and kills some of the shields, it is Hamas who is responsible for their deaths.

The third moral question is why does the United Nations try to shelter Palestinian civilians right in the middle of the areas from which Hamas is firing? Hamas has decided not to use the less densely populated areas for rocket firing and tunnel digging. For that reason, the United Nations should use these sparsely populated areas as places of refuge. Since the Gaza Strip is relatively small, it would not be difficult to move civilians to these safer areas. They should declare these areas battle free and build temporary shelters—tents if necessary—as places of asylum for the residents of the crowded cities. It should prevent any Hamas fighters, any rockets and any tunnel builders from entering into these sanctuaries. In that way, Hamas would be denied the use of human shields and Israel would have no reason to fire its weapons anywhere near these United Nations sanctuaries. The net result would be a considerable saving of lives.

But instead the UN is playing right into the hands of Hamas, by sheltering civilians right next to Hamas fighters, Hamas weapons and Hamas tunnels. Then the United Nations and the international community accuses Israel of doing precisely what Hamas intended Israel to do: namely fire at its terrorists and kill United Nations protected civilians in the process. It's a cynical game being played by Hamas, but it wouldn't succeed without the complicity of UN agencies.

The only way to assure that Hamas' strategy of using human shields to maximize civilian casualties is not repeated over and over again is for the international community, and especially the United Nations, not to encourage and facilitate it, as it currently does. International law must be enforced against Hamas for its double war crime: using civilian human shields to fire at civilian Israeli targets. If this tactic were to be brought to a halt, then Israel would have no need to respond in self-defense. Applying the laws of war to Israel alone will do no good, because any country faced with rockets and tunnels targeting its civilians will fight back. When the fighters and tunnel builders hide behind human shields, there will inevitably be civilian casualties—unintended by Israel, intended by Hamas—regardless of how careful the defenders are. Israel has tried its hardest to minimize civilian casualties. Hamas has tried its hardest to maximize civilian casualties. Now the United Nations and the international community must try their hardest to become part of the solution rather than part of the problem.*

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Gaza/@31.44761,34.4479282,13z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x14fd7f054e542767:0x7ff98dc913046392

*I see lots of criticism of the Iron Dome. So its obvious that because of the Iron dome, only 6 Israeli civilians have died, but without the Iron dome, or the air raid siren, how many Israelis would die in the 2014 Israel Gaza conflict?
In the conflict, still only in he hundreds, but over all the years of rocket fire the number wouldeasily have been in the multiples of a thousand.*

"Destroying the tunnels is also a painstaking operation. "This is very dangerous work," said Hecht. "Firstly, locating the tunnel entrances is very difficult; they are needles in a haystack." Remote technology does not yet exist to locate and map tunnels deep underground, he said, hence the need for troops."

"Once you find the entrance, you have to climb inside to know whether it is a defensive or offensive tunnel. Then you have to map the tunnel: where is it going, does it have branches? Then you have to rig almost the entire tunnel with explosives. And all this time the soldiers are at risk of attack, shooting, booby traps. It is a deadly game of hide-and-seek."
Hamas has reportedly resumed digging tunnels throughout the Gaza Strip in preparation for its next battle with Israel. According to the Hamas-affiliated website Arsalanet, tunnel construction has resumed, since they provide the organization, and particularly its military wing, with strategic depth.

On Sunday, the website published an extensive report on the tunnels, including meetings and conversations between digging team commanders and team members who are part of Izz ad-Din al-Qassam, Hamas' military wing. According to the commander of one such team, the digging will not stop as long as security conditions allow it to continue.

“In Gaza today there is a kind of a lower city for people who work around the clock with primitive means but through these tools and tunnels they attain many achievements,” he said.

The team head, who goes by the name of Abu Khaled, said that work on the specific tunnel photographed for the Web report began a few years ago, adding that the tunnel was intended to deliver supplies to Hamas' military wing.

In recent years, the report said, Gaza City has become riddled with tunnels. Some are used for attacks and defense, while others are used to move around, far from Israel’s watching eyes.

The report pictured a tunnel that it said was attacked and severely damaged by Israel during this summer’s war, after a drone caught sight of a group of armed men exiting the tunnel. However, it has since been restored and has returned to operation, the commander said."

"

 

Past Member (0)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 4:24 pm
Percentage of world Jews killed in the Holocaust: 67%

Percentage of Palestinians killed in Arab/Palestinian conflict: 1.3%

"A UNRWA report published in 2012 said that by 2020 Gaza’s population will reach 2.1 million, and pointed out that basic infrastructure such as electricity, water, sanitation and social services cannot keep up with the needs of the growing population. The Gaza Strip needs much more electricity, hundreds of new schools and hospitals and thousands of housing units by the year 2020.

“Gaza has become a dense urban area that is currently facing a housing units shortage estimated at about 71,000,” the report added.

Experts attribute this increase in population to the high fertility rate of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. The executive director of the Association of Family Planning and Protection, Muyassar Abu Mailaq, told Al-Monitor that the fertility rate for the people of Gaza has long been up to 5.7 children per woman. He said, “According to my work, family-planning methods in all government clinics and those affiliated with UNRWA are available. But some causes have led to increased fertility, thanks to eastern customs and traditions. Palestinian families like procreation, and they don’t consider five or six to be a large number.”

Abu Mailaq said that Gaza's fertility rate would be considered high even for developed countries with a high average income, let alone for a besieged territory suffering a blockade, extreme poverty, high unemployment and low per capita income.

Abu Mailaq warned of worsening health, marital and social problems, as well as educational problems caused by the high number of students in classrooms. There is also an absence of clear government population policies in the narrow Gaza Strip, increasing employment demands and difficult conditions"


 

. (0)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 4:35 pm
So what you're saying is that the laws of the civilized world only apply to Gentiles, and Jews are a law unto themselves - is that right? Sounds BIG TIME racist to ME.
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 4:59 pm
"This article contains Lists of Palestinian suicide attacks carried out by Palestinian individuals and militant groups. The international community considers the use of indiscriminate attacks on civilian populations and the use of human shields as illegal under international law.
A 2007 study of Palestinian suicide bombings during the Second Intifada (September 2000 through August 2005) found that 39.9 percent of the suicide attacks were carried out by Hamas, 26.4 percent by Fatah, 25.7 percent by the Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ), 5.4 percent by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) and 2.7 percent by other organizations"

Number of Israeli CIVILIANS killed in Israel/not in wartime by Palestinian terrorist attacks: 3,154 (823 children).
 

. (0)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 5:18 pm
We can take that as a yes then - as long as we know where we stand that's alright.
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 5:23 pm
Angelika, I don't read Ha'aretz in Montana. I don't read Ha'aretz in Israel either.
 

. (0)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 5:38 pm
But you still manage to acquire a copy to wrap your garbage in. . . Hmmm. . . I see. .
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 5:43 pm
Israelis in Israel do not read Ha'aretz. They take it to the beach or wrap garbage in it....in Israel.
 

. (0)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 5:47 pm
Yeah RIGHT. . .
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 6:00 pm
"The Israeli daily newspaper Haaretz has a minimal following in Israel. According to a recent Target Group Index (TGI) survey, Haaretz‘s readership amounted to only 5.8% of the news market. And even this minimal share is higher than it was last summer during the IDF's Operation Protective Edge to stop Hamas rocket fire. At that time, numbers were even lower due to a slew of cancellations that were prompted by columnist Gideon Levy's Op-Ed demonizing Israeli pilots for carrying out their military orders. Most Israelis recognize Haaretz for what it is, an ideological newspaper with a far-left editorial policy that appears more interested in advocacy than in objective news gathering.
Gideon Levy serves on Haaretz's editorial board, penning a weekly column, "Twilight Zone," as well as political editorials for the newspaper. He is known in Israel as an acrimonious, anti-Israel ideologue and activist, recently arrested for spitting and cursing at IDF soldiers, who often invents his own facts to support his radical agenda. His fan base consists primarily of fellow Israel haters and activists, while mainstream Israelis and journalists dismiss him as a dishonest propagandist."

 

. (0)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 6:21 pm
Oh boy, pathetic, "woe is me!" "Israel Haters!" Nobody loves me everybody hates me I'm gonna go and eat worms!!! LOL!!
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday May 9, 2015, 6:23 pm
Ros, Allen gladly fought for his beloved Israel. And if he could, he would rise up and fight again if his country needed him.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Sunday May 10, 2015, 1:03 am
Can't you see 1.7 + million in those tunnels - waiting to be blown up underground by IDF? The perfect solution, corridors of death, would avoid burial costs ..... Brilliant, Alexa ..... The Israeli "final solution" .... And endorsed by some of the Rabbis, too .... Although whether some took shelter in those tunnels .... who knows? (And a reminder - Israelis who hate Palestinians refer to them as "terror tunnels" - but they have served to bring in urgently needed food & medical supplies that are blocked .... they are also life-line tunnels.

Also, so clever to pull out old statistics, because a clear policy was adopted by Hamas several years ago to condemn suicide bombings .... and they have not been responsible for any since, but hasbara propaganda can still pull out old info & pretend it is current - in order to justify current oppression by the Israeli government. In fact, I'm not sure how far back you had to go to come up with a total of 3,154 (823 children) Israeli civilian deaths .... certainly earlier than 1987, and of course, you couldn't afford to report both sides for the same time frame!
That study is OLD DATA - If anyone wants to see current reality, check the sites that monitor Palestinian & Israeli aggression (and give regular update reports) and you can see for yourselves. (for example http://www.btselem.org/statistics)
For global figures: At least 1,195 Israelis and 9,131 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000 (civilians & combatants, excluding "Protective Edge" data). Such a waste of human life ....

And isn't it convenient to comment critically on "civilian shields", when the IDF guidelines & the mindset drummed into IDF soldiers is that every Palestinian is the enemy, could be dangerous - so using kids & adolescents can't be described as "civilian shields" when they are caught on camera .....

The empty areas of Gaza are empty because they lack the basic necessities for daily survival. With IDF shooting farmers who try to work as much of their land near the barrier ... don't you think such families would far rather be working fields elsewhere if the land there could support them? Especially as the IDF often move into the fields, bulldoze the crops, or organise aerial spraying that kills the crops (the most recent reported case of such destructive intrusion being within the last 2 weeks) ..... With the barricading, Gaza needs every ounce of food that can be produced .... but Israeli policies & strategies ensure that part of the more fertile land is inaccessible for farming purposes.

As Angie says, the media & hype caused much psychological trauma during "Protective Edge", far more than justified since Hamas' weaponry was largely ineffective ......

And I too would stress - this is not intended to justify irresponsible & indiscriminate firing by Hamas, also criminal ... but what about recognising that Israel is also guilty - and with superior equipment, superior numbers? And having invaded Gaza, is it surprising that there was military response in defense?

Hamas has still done far less than Haganah, Stern Gang etc - they've never eliminated & flattened whole villages.

The wrongs of one side do not justify the wrongs done by the other side. Violence feeds violence - and irresponsible orders from the leaders increase the scale of wrongs that have been done.

The scale of suicides by IDF soldiers & ex-soldiers, and the testimonies, indicate that numbers among the IDF find it hard to live with what they've been encouraged to do ...
 

Angelika R (143)
Sunday May 10, 2015, 2:14 am
Can't we just STOP giving Barbara and all or any Israel-right-or-wrong-supporters here a forum..?!
The message about IDF's unlawful behaviour during the last assault on Gaza is out and widely noticed.
That's a good thing, so now let's wait and see what consequences will be drawn and possible actions taken, by whom ever.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday May 10, 2015, 7:44 am
"There are people with vastly different views regarding the environment, politics, human rights, and many other topics that you will find on our boards. We see this diversity and variety as a real strength, and see dialog and debate as an integral part of the educational process as well as an important tool in exploring different sides of complex issues. "

"We are committed to allowing freedom of expression for our members, including maintaining a safe space for people with opposing views to express themselves."

"All Care2 Members are entitled to express their views and beliefs in a safe environment without feeling attacked. Members may not infringe on the rights of any other person to express themselves in a safe environment. "

"Any racial or ethnic slurs or insults relating to the mental, physical or intellectual qualities of any member."

"Degrading or insulting whole classes of people, or using such statements to justify actions taken against them."
 

. (0)
Sunday May 10, 2015, 7:49 am
Yep - without a doubt - that's her alright Evelyn.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday May 10, 2015, 8:01 am
" And, unlike her, I shall never tell her to "go away". We ALL have a right to be here and voice our opinions!"

"Can't we just STOP giving Barbara and all or any Israel-right-or-wrong-supporters here a forum..?! "
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday May 10, 2015, 8:04 am
He said he received help from an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) anti-suicide bombing expert and the Mossad, Israel's intelligence agency, following the 2005 London bombings. Kemp was highly critical of the "automatic assumption that everything the IDF does is illegal." He said "there is harsh criticism against the US and British armies as well, but they are given the benefit of the doubt. Israel is always automatically condemned, no matter what. It's a joke. Even the conspiracy theory that the one responsible for the 11 September attacks is not al-Qaeda but Israel refuses to die out, it's unbelievable"

""Of course innocent civilians were killed. War is chaos and full of mistakes. There have been mistakes by the British, American and other forces in Afghanistan and in Iraq, many of which can be put down to human error. But mistakes are not war crimes...Based on my knowledge and experience, I can say this: during Operation Cast Lead, the Israeli Defense Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in the combat zones than any other army in the history of warfare."
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday May 10, 2015, 8:15 am
Law. Unlawful. Against the law. Illegal.

Would you state the SPECIFIC laws you refer to and their text for everyone's edification?
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday May 10, 2015, 8:24 am
"Suicide bombing on Israeli bus. Sunday, May 10th 2015
A Palestinian suicide bomber killed seven people on a bus in northern Israel today, posing a threat to U.S. efforts to secure a halt to nearly 18 months of Israeli-Palestinian violence.
Total number of fatalities, by year[edit]
Year Total
1989 16
1993 1
1994 38
1995 39
1996 59
1997 24
1998 3
1999 0
2000 6
2001 85
2002 238
2003 145
2004 98
2005 33
2006 15
2007 3
2008 1
Total 804

Only 800 CIVILIAN (war crime), INNOCENT Israeli women, children and men. A high percentage of women and children ~ the most desirable targets.


 

Angelika R (143)
Sunday May 10, 2015, 8:35 am
"Can't we just STOP giving Barbara and all or any Israel-right-or-wrong-supporters here a forum..?! "
This clearly targets all other commenters, incl. myself. Obviously, only YOU misunderstood it.... I COULD equally have used the more common term "no feed troll" -... and off I am again.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday May 10, 2015, 9:08 am
You could stop posting drivel or you could stop ridiculing the intelligence, honesty, and integrity of anyone who holds a more realistic opinion than you.
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday May 10, 2015, 9:25 am
"Jews are not white. People who try to argue otherwise are not only abrogating history and denying our people’s authentic identity, they are in fact (even if unintentionally) also practicing a form of Western imperialism, as nobody has the right to superimpose an artificial Western identity on a people with an ancient Middle Eastern-tribal identity. Nobody has the right to try and make Jews, or any other Middle Eastern people, feel they “need” to fit into the “neat” Western categories of religion and race. Nobody has the right to force Jews into identifying as white people when they are clearly not. "
 

. (0)
Sunday May 10, 2015, 11:39 am
Sheyna/Barbedone - Sunday May 10, 2015, 9:25 am

"Jews are not white. . ."

Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings. . ,

What we have got ourselves here is a 100% self-confessed Jewish Supremacist.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Sunday May 10, 2015, 12:06 pm
I do like this line:
"Nobody has the right to try and make Jews, or any other Middle Eastern people, feel they “need” to fit into the “neat” Western categories of religion and race"
OR ANY OTHER MIDDLE EASTERN PEOPLE - grants the right NOT to be classified automatically with extremists, either ...

However, I read Angie's comment earlier as saying : this discussion has run itself out, people are no longer addressing the article about Israelis who have borne witness to what they saw and experienced in Gaza during "Protective Edge" but just bouncing around & using the thread to discuss other topics including propaganda ...

And I think she is correct. Trolls will try to use any active thread to feed their twisted stories .... Let's leave them to it, just warn open minded readers that -

From here on, nobody is making any effort to keep a balanced picture for those concerned about human rights ... Facts and figures should be careful checked on varied sources - and concerning BOTH sides!

Over and Out, Angie! The BS some generated shows the sensitivity & importance of your original post! Thanks ..
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday May 10, 2015, 12:17 pm
Armenians, Tibetans, Nigerians, Arab women, LGBT, Eritrea, Turkey, Sri Lanka, Hamas, IS, Sudan, China, Cuba, Zimbabwe, North Korea, Venezuela, Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Lebanon.........................................................................................................................................................


Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
Mark Twain

 

. (0)
Sunday May 10, 2015, 12:36 pm
The entity known as 'Israel' gives National Socialist Germany a bad name.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Sunday May 10, 2015, 4:26 pm


My dear “Sheyna” or whatever your true name is – reference to you comment of Saturday May 9, 2015, 11:45 am above I’d like to tell you that coercion is usually something I ignore; but as I’m a good hearted person I can’t see you suffering even more than you seemingly already do. And yes – it’s the most logical thing to track a thread one participates in if there’s the facility to do so. Otherwise … how could you always be so fast with your comments?!

I hope you don’t mind that I don’t address your first sentence? I don’t want to stoop down to trashy levels. Everyone here and on other threads where you participate can decide on their own and with ease who comes from the gutter and indulges in intellectual dishonesty.

You talk about “we” – it can’t be the royal “we” I assume? Add to that that you’ve just … joined … Care2 in November 2014; in other words just 6 months ago … do I have to conclude that you diligently went through all our postings and comments “from far over a year ago”? WOW – you really are a devoted and interested member – the question is just: a member of what? Could it be that the “we” you are referencing concerns rather the Hasbaratchik Troll Group (HTG)? That would make sense.

Let me clarify a few points with which you seem to have an issue:

1. I don’t participate in flagging campaigns. I love to leave those beautiful, meaningful, very expressive and very revealing comments of the HTG for future reference. Otherwise how could I comply with my own rule to adhere to intellectual honesty without being able to provide evidence in giving a reference/source of my claims?! E.g. like the one above which upset you so much and which triggered your “demand” to me.

2. Therefore, in line with what you state above, would you please search the archives of “we” and produce any or all of my “most vulgar, crass, and vile comments. And filthy PM,s”. It should be easy for you as they have not been deleted as you state in your comment above and you did copy them … I mean … the “we” copied them.

3. I can always state what I have to say in the open forum and don’t need to revert to private messages and emails to threaten other people. Neither do I feel the urge to threaten other participants to take care of their knee caps.

I have told you before on a number of occasions to substantiate your slanderous accusations against me (and other members) with links to the referenced text(s). Up until now I’m still waiting for a crumb of solid evidence from the “we’s”.

All we participants in this and other fora are getting from you and your group are totally baseless accusations; slanderous remarks; slurs and distortions; insults abound as well as ad hominem attacks. Even when the “we’s” filed a complaint (see the link I referenced further up) the “we’s” did nothing but kvetching without any substance to it. Maybe you should look up the meaning of the Yiddish words you so love to use?

Until you produce at least one single evidence you’re simply a disgusting liar and a bad one for that matter.

And this is in perfect line with the Code of Conduct of Care2 as I can substantiate each and every of my claims.

~*~*~*~

For those unfamiliar with the Yiddish word “kvetching” – it has it’s origin in the Middle High German word “quetzen” which is in today’s modern German “quetschen” which means “to squeeze”. In Yiddish it stands for “to complain persistently and whiningly”.

Well – I leave it to the … inclined … reader to decide who’s the kvetcher – LOL!
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Sunday May 10, 2015, 4:31 pm

"Sheyna" puts in a comment on Sunday May 10, 2015, 8:24 am listing "terrorist" attacks since 1989 until 2008 - as always without any reference to the source.

Which reminded me of this interesting discussion in February here on C2 with some of us participating. Maybe you’d want to read again about the Zionist terrorism aimed at the purely Palestinian population of those days which the world is forced to forget? Compare it to what "Sheyna" listed.

The big difference is that the Palestinians have every right to resist the colonization of their land by foreigners of whom the vast majority have no connection whatsoever to this land. And they definitely have every right and law on their side to resist that the remaining meager 22% is not stolen from them too. Yes – I know; such is not in "Sheyna's" Zionist Hasbara Manual.

Those interested may want to visit above given link and start reading from the comment of Saturday February 28, 2015, 3:37 pm onward.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Sunday May 10, 2015, 4:58 pm

"Sheyna" opens her posting of Sunday May 10 2015, 8:24 am with the following statement:

"Suicide bombing on Israeli bus. Sunday, May 10th 2015
A Palestinian suicide bomber killed seven people on a bus in northern Israel today, posing a threat to U.S. efforts to secure a halt to nearly 18 months of Israeli-Palestinian violence."

I couldn't believe that this incident which allegedly happened this Sunday going by "Sheyna's" posting would not make headline all over the media and checked ... and found ...

Suicide bombing on Israeli bus

... but it seems to me that this refers to the incident that actually happened on Feb 23, 2004 just before the court hearing about the Wall in The Hague as the text is identical with what "Sheyna" posted. Correct me if I'm wrong and provide evidence.

"A Palestinian suicide bomber killed seven people on a bus in northern Israel today, posing a threat to U.S. efforts to secure a halt to nearly 18 months of Israeli-Palestinian violence.

The attack, claimed by the militant group Islamic Jihad and condemned by the Palestinian Authority, was the most lethal single incident since U.S. Middle East envoy Anthony Zinni arrived in the region last Thursday on a ceasefire mission.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, calling the bombing "very grave and very harsh", lashed out at Palestinian President Yasser Arafat after speaking to Zinni about the attack.

"We believe that Arafat has not relinquished his policy of terrorism," Sharon told reporters in Jerusalem. But security sources said they did not expect Israel to retaliate, to avoid charges of undermining Zinni's efforts.

Islamic Jihad, which opposes peace moves, called the bombing revenge for the killing by Israeli forces of its leaders and civilians in military attacks in the West Bank and Gaza Strip."

Read the rest under above link.

Who said what again about intellectual (dis)honesty?!


 

Past Member (0)
Sunday May 10, 2015, 5:48 pm
I've never used a single Yiddish word as Hebrew is my mother tongue. I've told several of you not to because you're using dictionary definitions not colloquial usage. It's actually fairly funny at times.
 

Carol R (11)
Sunday May 10, 2015, 7:07 pm
Lona, thanks so much for clarifying Sheyna's post of Sunday May 10 2015, 8:24. It's what the hasbara does best,.... As Sheyna herself said:

Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
Mark Twain
 

Past Member (0)
Sunday May 10, 2015, 7:18 pm
Carol, the excerpt that I posted was a retelling of what was nearly an everyday event in Israel specifically targeting women and children. Schools and school buses, a discotheque, cafés and coffeehouses, shopping malls, city buses.....
Terrorist attacks on innocent civilians. War crimes that have been ongoing for decades. CIVILIANS.
 

. (0)
Sunday May 10, 2015, 7:21 pm
"Civilians" who have no business being there in the first place.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Sunday May 10, 2015, 10:57 pm
Eleonora - I'm glad you traced that supposedly new event back.

Earlier, I pointed out "Also, so clever to pull out old statistics, because a clear policy was adopted by Hamas several years ago to condemn suicide bombings .... and they have not been responsible for any since, but hasbara propaganda can still pull out old info & pretend it is current " ..... QED!

There are occasional individual suicidal attacks - just as there are murderous attacks by extremist settlers. Neither are justified, although oppressive treatment does contribute to pushing people further into despair, a condition that can trigger individuals and small groups to crack up & do crazy things. But there are no more Hamas-organised suicide attacks ....

The actions of extremists, psychopaths, sociopaths & those who've been pushed over the edge into violent insanity are not comparable to the scale of a military offensive by an extremely well equipped official army - with directives that encourage considering all indigenous people to be "the enemy", not civilians, and therefore OK targets for killing. Of course - such a policy was endorse by a senior Rabbi (whose mindset seems to have much in common with that of ISIS leaders).

I'm not going to post statistics in reply - they are not that accurate anyway, particularly older ones - but even the Jewish Virtual Library reflects at least 10 times more Palestinian deaths than Israeli ("Protective Edge" was more than 20 times higher) .... and they've had to go back to 1948 to get enough Israeli mortalities for the figures to be less shocking .... As the source is not clearly indicated, I can't even provide the fuller picture, but according to the Jewish Virtual Library database, it seems that the figures cited above refer to Israeli (?civilian?) deaths since 1947 or 1948 ......
 

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Monday May 11, 2015, 8:00 am
Israeli colonialism, plain and simple
In two court decisions involving shoving Palestinians off their land, Supreme Court justices have confirmed what Israel’s critics are saying: that Israel has been a colonialist entity since 1948.
By Amira Hass | May 11, 2015 | 2:30 AM |

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.655812


 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday May 11, 2015, 4:00 pm
“Sheyna” – in your posting of Saturday May 9, 2015, 11:45 am you state in your 7th sentence “So what are you kvetching about?” … a Yiddish word as can be easily find out ... but now you deny in your posting of Sunday May 10, 2015, 5:48 pm … “I've never used a single Yiddish word as Hebrew is my mother tongue.” …

There’s just one single day between these two diametrically opposed postings of yours … you should decide for one version and stick to it if you’d want to keep a shred of credibility. Unless someone else is using again that funny computer which produces the same linguistic semantics for different “persons” …

Can I assume that the “we” are still busy copying my “most vulgar, crass, and vile comments. And filthy PM,s” (your slanderous and totally baseless accusations against me further up) and preparing them to be posted here?

Should I hold my breath??
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday May 11, 2015, 4:04 pm

Evelyn, another prime example how official Israel - and by extrapolation all it's hasbara foot soldiers - are playing with numbers and statistics can be found e.g. in two news articles of 2010:

According to Israeli government statistics 22,684 soldiers and civilians have been killed since 1860 until 2010, the date cited as the beginning of modern Jewish immigration.

According to the same report by AP - Sunday, April 18, 2010 10:10:49 PM By MARK LAVIE – “… the Defense Ministry said 111 Israelis have been added to the list over the past year. THE FIGURE INCLUDES SOLDIERS KILLED IN TRAINING AND TRAFFIC ACCIDENTS (Emphasis added by me). Places of entertainment were closed Sunday evening. Israeli radio and TV stations aired documentaries about Israel's wars and stories of fallen soldiers.”

Yet, one day later, on AP - Monday, April 19, 2010 10:58:27 PM By AMY TEIBEL - we read that “Barak spoke to Israel Radio on the occasion of Israel's Memorial Day, dedicated to the nearly 23,000 fallen soldiers and civilian victims of terror attacks. The day is observed with a two-minute nationwide siren when people stand at attention, traffic is halted and everyday activities come briefly to a standstill.”

This is how soldiers killed in training and traffic accidents become “soldiers and civilian victims of terror attacks”.

Wasn’t this easy? As the saying goes: figures don’t lie but liars figure. Q.E.D.

 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday May 11, 2015, 4:07 pm

Corrigenda: it should naturally read - "This is how soldiers AND civilians killed ..."
 

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Tuesday May 12, 2015, 5:11 am
What kind of peace is the ZioNazist entity looking forward to achieve? The new ZioNazists government is heading towards a new war actually . This is really obvious from the newly chosen or nominated ministers.

In Their Own Words

Moshe Ya’alon (Likud)
Current and likely Defense Minister
“You don't have to be a security official to understand that when there are 20 Arabs on a bus with a Jewish driver and two or three passengers and an armed soldier, that's a guarantee of a terror attack.”

Ayelet Shaked (Jewish Home)
New Justice Minister
“This is a war between two people. Who is the enemy? The Palestinian people. Why? Ask them, they started.”

Uri Ariel (Jewish Home)
Current Housing Minister, New Agriculture Minister
“We need to state clearly that there won’t be a Palestinian state west of the Jordan River. We will fight for the Land of Israel with all our strength.”

Israel Katz (Likud)
Current and likely Transportation Minister
“I am opposed to a Palestinian state… It is unacceptable, mainly because of our rights to this land.”

Eli Ben Dahan (Jewish Home)
New Deputy Defense Minister in charge of West Bank civil administration
“To me, [Palestinians] are like animals, they aren’t human.”
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Tuesday May 12, 2015, 2:32 pm

Hellllloooo "Sheyna"!! What happened? Just as a reminder ...:

Can I assume that the “we” are still busy copying my “most vulgar, crass, and vile comments. And filthy PM,s” (your slanderous and totally baseless accusations against me further up) and preparing them to be posted here?

Your telling silence and attempted distraction from your slanderous statements against me further illustrate why I very seldom and only where I deem it necessary answer to comments by you and other members of the Hasbaratchik Troll Group. It's simply a total waste of time.

Your "system" is always the same: you throw dirt in every direction hoping that something will stick somewhere somehow while overlooking the fact that it all lands back at your place.

This little exercise in futility was just done to further document the case.

 

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Wednesday May 13, 2015, 7:04 am
Israel to demolish electricity grid in Nablus-area village
MAY 13, 2015 4:03 P.M. (UPDATED: MAY 13, 2015 4:03 P.M.)

NABLUS (Ma'an) -- The Israeli civil administration issued an order Wednesday to completely demolish an electricity grid near the Qasra village in southern Nablus, 48 hours after the village council was delivered demolition orders, a monitor says.
In addition to the ordered demolition of the electricity grid, the demolition notices were given for a home and water well in the village belonging to Said Mimr Said and Abd al-Hamid Youssef Khrewish, Ghassan Daghlas, an official who monitors settlement activity in the northern West Bank, told Ma'an.
All demolition orders were given until May 15.
An Israeli army spokeswoman did not have immediate information on Wednesday's orders.
Israeli authorities regularly demolish Palestinian structures under the pretext that owners have failed to acquire the proper building permits.
Approximately half of Qasra's lands are classified Area B and the other half Area C, under the Oslo Accords. As Area C is under full Israeli civil and military control, all building permits must be obtained through Israel's civil administration, and the vast majority of permits requested by Palestinians in Area C are denied, according to rights organization Rabbis for Human Rights.
Meanwhile, Jewish-only settlements are given funding and military protection throughout Area C, and are often connected to expansive electricity grids that Palestinians in the same area are forbidden access to.
In addition to Yash Kodesh settlement outpost, Migdalim settlement and Ahiya settlement outpost lie on private land belonging to Qasra's residents.
There are over 500,000 Israeli settlers living in settlements across the West Bank, including occupied East Jerusalem, in contravention of international law.

http://www.maannews.com/Content.aspx?id=765390

 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Wednesday May 13, 2015, 12:28 pm

Thank you Abdessalam - this is just the "only democracy in the Middle East" in full swing!! Another perfect example of how much polit-Israel longs for nothing more than peace ... or is it ... another piece of the land of Palestine??
 

Angelika R (143)
Wednesday May 13, 2015, 12:43 pm
Thanks Abessalam, most typical and regular behaviour, yes. :( and with impunity as always.
Eleonora, yep..were there not written orders delivered, and wouldn't we know better, one could really assume it's all just a hearing error!;) a peace is a piece is a peace..
 

Parsifal S (96)
Wednesday May 13, 2015, 11:22 pm

is this the article where hasBarbara switched to Sheyna ?

Sigmund Freud schau herunter
 

Angelika R (143)
Thursday May 14, 2015, 3:40 am
Yes Parsifal, I think it was. if not this particular thread, at least the TOPIC, as there were mutiple postings about it.
 

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Thursday May 14, 2015, 4:23 am

Tell the State Department to revise its definition of anti-Semitism
We need to fight all forms of hate and prejudice, wherever they exist. But we won't achieve that by punishing people for speaking out against Israel's human rights abuses.

Over 300 academics from across the U.S. have added their voices to the growing movement to change the State Department's definition of anti-Semitism.

Add your name, and tell the State Department: criticism of Israel is NOT anti-Semitic.


http://org.salsalabs.com/o/301/p/dia/action3/common/public/?action_KEY=17832&track=ASlink1
 

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Thursday May 14, 2015, 4:30 am
Signed.tweeted and shared on FB
 

Angelika R (143)
Thursday May 14, 2015, 5:52 am
Thx Abdesslam, had signed earlier from email, also this link was posted on other threads. I don't think this thread here is being (re)visited by m/any any more..perhaps best add anything important onto the other ones that exist on the topic. (Jess', Carrie's, Sam's and Evelyn's posts)
 

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Thursday May 14, 2015, 5:58 am
Thanks Angie. Appreciated
 

Angelika R (143)
Thursday May 14, 2015, 6:28 am
That's 2007 stats, ok. Now, nearly 8 yrs later, numbers will have changed, more likely not favorably to Israel, given their low number of casualties in wars since, compared to Arab Muslims!
The relevant sentence from that article is this:
"[-] Israel's reputation will continue to pay the price." And at its own fault.
 

Parsifal S (96)
Thursday May 14, 2015, 11:02 am

278 comments is quite impressive Aloha Angelika
 

. (0)
Thursday May 14, 2015, 1:30 pm
67 Years Of Continuous Nakba In The Holy Land Of Palestine
- - - Dr Salim Nazzal

When I was a kid, my father used to summon me on the 15th of May to tell me about the events of Nakba that I did not witness. Like all my generation, I paid the price of the Nakba that I did not live. I inherit it from my family so to speak. I remember how my parents were sentimental while remembering its events. At school, our teachers all witnessed the Nakba recalled its events. At that age, it was difficult to understand its implications on those who lived it.But we naturally felt it through many things. The hardest feeling of all this is the knowledge that we see everybody has a home expect us.

Like all Palestinians, I grew up with pain, bitterness, and anger about the unjust which took place in Palestine like these days in 1948.Like these days in May 1948,East European Jewish terrorists, did all sorts of atrocities, from murder to rape, to burning houses, and to expel Palestinians from their cities and villages.

Like all generation of Palestinian who lived the Nakba and who did not, we never understand the level of hypocrisy the west has reached. We know very well that the Zionist state get support by most of the western world. In other word, the most powerful western states stood against my small nation and wanted it to die.

The declaration of the death of Palestine and the birth of Israel is the worst nightmare that happened to my nation. A culture that lived thousands of years was brutaly destroyed.The holy land was covered of innocent Palestinian blood. Palestinians never stop asking the question why a Jew from Poland or Ukraine or Russia or the US has the right to live in our home country, and we denied that right. Why any Jew can live free in my home and my nation either under occupation or in exile?

My people did no wrong to anybody .They were engaged to plant and harvest their fields to feed their families. But they had to suffer almost a century because Europe wanted to solve the European Jewish problem outside Europe. And Palestinians had to pay the price.

Many Palestinians were not even aware of the Jewish history in Europe, this history which my nation has paid and still pays for it.

Zionist Jews need to know that not by any way Palestinians accept less than their rights. Yes, Zionist Jews are powerful now but things will change one day.

It will change for sure. My generation may be dead then, but I'm sure that a new generation of Palestinians will walk freely in Haifa and Yaffa, and all Palestine. And Zionism will be no more than a nightmare in the history of Palestine.

http://www.countercurrents.org/nazzal140515.htm
 

. (0)
Thursday May 14, 2015, 4:27 pm
I don't know. Please tell us why - we are agog with anticipation. Honest. . .
 

Abdessalam Diab (145)
Friday May 15, 2015, 7:28 am

Today the whole world commemorates the Nakba (Arabic for ‘catastrophe’), when over 700,000 Palestinians were driven from their homes in the process that led to the declaration of the State of Israel. Now, 67 years later, the Nakba is ongoing:

1 - Over 5 million Palestinian refugees are still fighting for the realisation of their right of return to their homes, a right which the State of Israel continues to deny to them.

http://www.badil.org/en/press-releases/149-2015/4448-pren14051514


2 - 1.6 million Palestinians live as second-class citizens in the State of Israel. Over 50 Israeli laws have been enacted since 1948 that directly or indirectly discriminate against the indigenous Palestinians who were able to remain after the Nakba.

http://www.adalah.org/en/content/view/7771

3 - Nearly 2 million Palestinians live under an Israeli military siege in the Gaza Strip, without freedom of movement or reliable access to clean water, food, medicine, electricity and other basic needs. Everyone in Gaza is vulnerable to Israeli military attacks such as the bombardment in the summer of 2014 when over 2,000 Palestinians were killed, hundreds of whom were children.

http://waronwant.org/campaigns/justice-for-palestine/free-gaza

4 - More than 1.7 million Palestinians live under Israeli military occupation in the West Bank, closed in by Israel’s illegal Apartheid Wall and settlements which are proliferating at a frightening pace.

http://waronwant.org/campaigns/justice-for-palestine/the-wall-must-fall

5 - Nearly 6,000 Palestinians are held as political prisoners in Israeli prisons and detention centres, where torture is widespread. Many are held in administrative detention, without charge or trial.

http://www.addameer.org/etemplate.php?id=765

Despite these seemingly insurmountable challenges, Palestinians continue to struggle for justice, asking grassroots movements around the world to take action using boycotts, divestment and sanctions (BDS) on Israel until it complies with international law.

http://www.bdsmovement.net/bdsintro



 

Angelika R (143)
Friday May 15, 2015, 8:25 am
My contribution to that day a painful memory. But the effort-by some brave Israelis!- to raise awareness of history and maybe give a little something to some of the victims.
 

Angelika R (143)
Friday May 15, 2015, 9:34 am
link above messed up, sorry.
My contribution for Nakba Day
 

. (0)
Saturday May 16, 2015, 12:08 pm
Nyack, maybe Bibi screamed in joy because the Arabs were voting!
 

Evelyn B (63)
Thursday May 28, 2015, 7:42 am
IDF isn't the only army in which soldiers admit to the weaknesses of their "orientation. I thought of this thread when watching
Jacob George U.S Veteran Afghanistan Turns Into Peace Activist


War is bad - and it is worse when instructions are flexible, "woolly", where racially insensitive fear is being promoted as a mindset ....
 

Fiona Ogilvie (562)
Monday June 1, 2015, 7:54 am
A link on another thread, left by Evelyn, led me here to TOO MUCH truth.

Thank you, Angelika, for this topic a month late.

Same trolls everywhere trying to obscure truth.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday June 15, 2015, 12:54 pm

A little piece of info which I just read by coincidence:

PUTTING ISRAEL ON TRIAL AT THE ZURICH ‘KULTURHAUS’

There’s nothing like respecting Freedom of Expression … I’m proud that the Swiss Government didn’t get intimidated enough to cancel its funding of "Breaking The Silence" neither the Kulturhaus to cancel the exhibition!


 

Angelika R (143)
Monday June 15, 2015, 1:35 pm
So am I Eleonora and I left a bravissimo for your fellow countrymen on Jess's thread where' I mentioned this
http://www.care2.com/news/member/124335883/3888465
 

Angelika R (143)
Monday June 15, 2015, 1:41 pm
I so wish our officials had acted like those in Zürich! Sadly, the Oberbürgermeister of Cologne caved to the zionist pressure. I'll fwd one letter of protest to you.
 

Angelika R (143)
Monday June 15, 2015, 1:48 pm
Related:


White House Officials Meet Breaking The Silence Reps



 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Monday June 15, 2015, 1:50 pm

Thanks Angelika - haven't seen this y et (bit short of time these days). So sad that the "Koelsche" didn't have the guts to stand up to this bullying! Looking forward to your letter - have lots of German friends here and in Germany. Thanks!!
 
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