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Pope Issues Call for Palestinian Homeland


World  (tags: middle-east, israel, palestine, world, pope )

AWAY AWHI
- 3685 days ago - hosted.ap.org
Pope Benedict XVI, standing in the cradle of Christianity, told Palestinians Wednesday that he supports their quest for a sovereign homeland, offering his strongest public support yet for an independent Palestinian state.



   

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Comments

Morgan Griffith (225)
Wednesday May 13, 2009, 4:32 pm
Wow am going to have to follow this to see what type of reception this gets
 

sue M (184)
Wednesday May 13, 2009, 5:52 pm
Yeah Aba, It will be interesting what his hignass stirs up. Wonder if this was what they did when they came to America?????
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday May 14, 2009, 6:14 am
I don't think anybody argues against an independent state for Palestinian Arabs, besides Jordan. The question is when and how.

Josh.
 

Erica Stuart (0)
Thursday May 14, 2009, 1:08 pm
The Pope has given his blessing on something the entire world (except Israel of course) has voted for at the U.N and supported in the name of justice, Let it not be forgotten that all the claims of suffering the Jewish people have, did not come about because of the Palestinians, who are innocent victims of Jewish revenge. And let also remember that those leaders who make those outlandish claims on the world, including against the Pope, have been now translate not in persecution of the Jews but
in "Failure of coming to the aid of the Jews" Which is a voluntary act of free people with no legal obligation, hence no legal punishment should be involved, nor should the Moral implications if any,be given legal authority. The bets example is the crucifixion of Jesus, Jewish people are incensed at being accused of 'Killer of Christ". But based on the Jewish people mode of thinking hey are guilty of not having tried to save Jesus, of cheering instead. So...what is it? That means that unlike other people Jews are not responsible for the consequences of their action. To a certain extent we are all responsible for the consequences of our action in terms of avoidance.
Unfortunately we are headed that way again with other minorities, illegal immigrant are poor, so it is our burden to help them but not to question their right to enter illegally. So, we are being asked to ignore legality while being condemned and demand punishment for lack of moral compassion . That is a moral obligation, Personally I help every one but ther is no legal obligation to do so. Many people have helped the Jews in WWII at the risk of their own lives, now, as with the Pope, the question is "what did you do for the Jews" Therefore,"What did you do for the Jews" is now the determining factor of a person qualification, even if you never met a Jewish person.

Netanyahu is allowing food to Gaza...Netanyahu has not legal or moral right to stop food going to Gaza. So do not expect us to praise him for it.

ETS

 

Past Member (0)
Thursday May 14, 2009, 2:53 pm
Erica, allowing or disallowing food to Gaza has nothing to do with anything other than the threat of Hamas hiding weapons and rockets in the trucks. Hamas and Israel are in the state of war, and how often do you see aid coming from one warring entity to another?

Palestinian Arabs in Gaza are surely not victims of Israel revenge: they are victims of the war started by Hamas, which they elected at free democratic elections. Hamas was honest and promised them war with Israel, Gazans knew it and elected them, and the war they got. As such, they bear the responsibility to accept the results of their defeat.

The Pope is not an ordinary man, he is the head of the Church, and many Nazis and their allies listened to Church. That's why Jews ask the Pope about his past - which is very honoraouble, to my knowledge.

Jewish people are incensed at being accused of 'Killer of Christ" because it is an impossible punishment from their point of view. Jewish Messiahs happened and happen very often. The latest Messianic claim was put about late Lubavitcher Rabbi who passed away several years ago. Nobody wanted to crusify him. Jerusalem has Messianic Syndrom, where every year several people claim to be Messiahs. Nobody crusifies them as well. Jews have lots of tolerance on these things.

Netanyahu is allowing [trucks with] food to Gaza. Nobody knows if any of these trucks have rockets hidden between bags with flower, as happened many times before. Those rockets can kill Israeli people. Netaniyahu must be cautious and deserves the praise for taking a risk in endagering his people for the sake of people from a warring entity.

Josh.
 

Erica Stuart (0)
Thursday May 14, 2009, 4:34 pm
Josh, as you described it the issue is too complex for a reply on this post and I am to busy to enter in a long historical and political discussion. Since I have a Ph.D in International Politics it would be a very complex answer. So lets keep it simple. Hamas defeat?. I do not support Hamas although Israel encouraged and empowered Hamas as a counterforce to Arafat when it was convenient. . Apart from that Hamas won a legitimate election and talking about refusing to accept defeat???? we blackeded them. As to being at war. I ma glad your mention it because that is what the Palestinians and Arabs in general are trying to tell Israel WE HEVE NOT SURRENDERED AND ARE STILL FIGHTING. Until they officially surrender the Palestinians are at war even if they use unconventional methods. Keep in mind that until the world officially recognize the STATE of Israel as is or as you want it, Israel borders are those accepted in the settlement made by the U.N. So while one can accept Israel right to exist there is no acceptance of the state of Israel except as originally established and the rest is illegal occupation which you call your by military victory, BUT that war is not over for the Palestinians and until that matter is settled and the state of war is officially ended the Palestinians are just displaced refugees fighting to liberate their home land.
Perhaps a good review of International law which the Arab states and Palestinians are fully aware of, Israel has been playing a good game of "don't ask don't tell" about their legitimacy as a State, no one, not even the USA has yet recognized the STATE of Israel as it presently exists. Recognition of a State is based on recognition of its borders, the legitimate borders of Israel are what the Palestinian are willing to accept.

WEll not trying to play a game of Shylock here. I want Israel to exist but history also show it has a tendency by its ambitions to destroy itself.
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday May 14, 2009, 6:51 pm
many borders have been created or lost to wars..that is nothing new..the paliestinians and israelis both have a right to exist peacefully , but where and when is the big question... and yes food aid is great but it must be searched for weapons because many weapons caches have been hidden among food in the past...but hey its a good start...rome wasnt built in a day!
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday May 14, 2009, 7:56 pm
Hi Erica, it is always nice to talk to a clever person!

Under Hamas defeat I meant:
1. Hamas defeat in the last war. All Hamas threats were blown up, and Israel achieved all the goals it could without bombing hospitals where Hamas leaders were hiding.
2. Hamas disregard for civilian population. They had money and materials to dig tunnels all over Gaza, but not to build a single bomb shelter. IU bet Gazans understand it too.
3. Course on confrontation with Israel did not bring Gazans anything good in the economic sense. Money count everywhere, and receiving charity is not the same as making a decent living. They can compare themselves with West Bank, or with Jordan, to see the difference.

It is correct - Arabs tell Israel that they don't surrender and we are fighting. But didn't you notice, that Israel also didn't surrender and is also fighting? And fighting with more success on all aspects.

The main issue in this war is not borders - otherwise Arabs would OK Israeli in borders of 48. Borders are negotiateable. They surely depend on success in wars - as in all other places. Countries lose territories in wars - I don't need to tell examples to Ph.D. in International Politics, do I?

The main issue is where to move Arab refugees from concentration camps of Syria and Lebanon. And another main issue is if Arab recognition of Israel as a Jewish state, i.e. not living under Islam. That's a very big thing too, because lands which were under Islam one day, have to be taken back to be under Islam, one way or another.

Considering that Hamas is the hard-core enemy of Israel on all aspects, and is at the state of war, we can recognize risks that Netaniyahu is taking by allowing trucks to come to the enemy's land. Remember, when Nazis wanted to trade several thousands Jews for several trucks with gasoline, US did not let the deal pass so not to help the enemy.

If we won't recognize Netaniyahu's action now, less stimulus he will have in doing it again next time. Something like don't forget to say "thank you".

I don't see Israeli ambitions here, only the strong will to survive and not to be destroyed.

Josh.
 

Erica Stuart (0)
Thursday May 14, 2009, 11:29 pm
Of course Israel would want to search the cargo, but once done it could be allowed to proceed.
ETS
 

Marty H (119)
Friday May 15, 2009, 2:30 am
Josh, Josh Josh, lol! Always coming up with some answers to defend the IDF even if they really have nothing to do with the situation, LOLOL! Not condemning you for your opinons as we are all entitled to our opinions. It was very nice of the IDF not to blow up hospitals, LMAO! Like they have that right even if Hamas was really hiding in there! Hamas's disregard for civilian population?! Ummm I think we can safely say the IDF has little or no regard for civilian populations after this last slaughter! Shall we compare numbers of innocent people killed by Hamas vs innocent people killed by the IDF?! And now you are blaming THEM for not building bomb shelters because they needed tunnels just to get food and/or medical supplies?! Puh-leeze!

Don't make enemies and you have very little to worry about although there will always be people who dislike you, there is a difference between stepping on people and making enemies and people who don't like you because of some personal conflict. I'm talking about the IDF/Mossad. NOTE; I have never said Hamas was innocent and I support NO terrorists anywhere. I never said Hamas is not capable of trying to get weapons to combat the IDF's superior arsenal! But exactly what you would expect Hamas to do when they were elected by the people to govern and it's their responsibility to make sure the people have food, medical supplies, etc., amazes me!

A main issue here IS borders because the IDF controls food, medical supplies, electricity and the Good Lord only knows what else! If the Palestinians did not have to rely on the IDF concerning control of all these things, they would be a much happier people. Happier comfortable people are much less likely to want war.

I'm NOT impressed with Netanyahu personally! How big of him to allow trucks into the Palestinians, NOT! It's not his right in the 1st place to control another people's food, medical supplies or electricty! But that's what you get when power and control take over people. It's not a new concept by any means! I believe EVERYTHING is searched from IDF to Palestinians so I do not see why letting in food after it was searched is such a praiseworthy action!

Gee, remember a guy with a Charlie Chaplin moustache who constantly put down and killed the "weak?" Yes the strong can usually conquer the weak at least for a while. However all that strength the IDF has because of superior weapons, training and funds will amount to nothing when called before their Creator! It's how you treat people that will come back to haunt you or praise you and strength has nothing to do with it in the end!
 

Past Member (0)
Friday May 15, 2009, 5:11 am
Marty, I was talking Netaniyahu, not IDF.

To answer your point: Hanieh and his guys comandeered a ward in Shefa hospital and made their HQ there. On at least three occasions elsewhere other armies were attacking hospitals full of patients, even without rebels HQ there: 2 in Russia, and 1 in Sri-Lanka. Tell me which army, besides Israeli, refused to attack hospitals?

When talking tunnels, I meant the ones Hamas built under Gaza to move fighters from one area to another, not the border ones which used to get food, etc. Plenty of those and no bomb shelter sounds like a disgust for the local population, isn't it?

Marty, Israel and Hamas are at war! Many enemies don't support help efforts to the other side, read my comment about US action on such help. That's the reality of war, and everyone has to be judged accordingly.

IDF is strong not only in weapons. Besides them is 2,000 years old will of Israeli people, of Jewish people to come back to their homeland. They are not conquerers, they took what was theirs, whatever limited it was. IDF has has really nothing to fear when coming to face the Creator.

What do you say about:
1) Where to move Arab refugees from concentration camps of Syria and Lebanon?
2) Arab recognition of Israel as a Jewish state, i.e. not living under Islam. That's a very big thing too, because lands which were under Islam one day, have to be taken back to be under Islam, one way or another?

Josh.



 

Marty H (119)
Saturday May 16, 2009, 11:50 pm
Josh,
Whenever you talk about the Jews in Israel, except Jewish scholars or the very few excused from joing the IDF, you are talking about IDF. That is why I always just use IDF and Netanyahu is no exception.

Here is an article on "rules of War." No one should be attacking hospitals anywhere! Yes it does say if that place is used as a military outpost the rules are off but being an outpost I would says does not mean mainly being a hospital and there should be some good proof if it is attacked that it was being used as an actual outpost! I think this is a loophole that should be fixed! Too easy for an army to attack a hospital who has a lot of sick and wounded just because some enemies might be hiding there. There is little as low as attacking a place where there are sick and wounded! Here;
http://people.howstuffworks.com/rules-of-war.htm/printable

How do you know the tunnels built under Gaza are not used mainly to get food and medical supplies from places like Egypt? I would have to see some serious proof that these tunnels were not mainly being used to get food and medical supplies. Too easy for the IDF to blow up those tunnels to starve and deny the Palestinians food and medial supplies. And what makes you think the Palestinians don't deserve to protect themeselves even though their weapons don't compare to the IDF's? Everyone has a right to protect themselves!

Josh, Yes I realize Hamas and the IDF are at war. However the IDF has been at war with pretty much anyone in charge of the Palestinians for ages! I think it's time they both grow up and elect leaders on both sides that really want peace if there are such leaders there at all! I think the world should DEMAND they come to a solution or take their weapons away. Israel is one of the best trained and effecient armies in the world but they are no match for the U.S. or countries like Russia, lol!

Yes Josh, the IDF are strong and it has went to their head and they have become bullies! There is nothing wrong with defending your country but when you start looking at other humans as less than human and start kicking them around because you can, you are no longer just defending your country! I can show you many videos of this bullying! Let's get something clear. I always defend people of the Jewish faith, like I've said before I have Jewish friends. However did you know that about 80% of the Jews in israel are secular? Yup, 80% don't worship, which is their right but in my book Jews are people who practice the Jewish faith. This figure came from an old friend who goes to Israel often and has relatives there. I believe her, however if you can find something to disbute that, great! Not conquerers, now that is funny! I don't think I have to tell you about the Israeli wars! I would not be so sure about the IDF not having to worry about facing the Creator but time will tell on that subject.

As far as the refugees, what a political mess and both due to the wars of 1948 and 1967 mostly. Here, in case you do not know the technical problems;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee
Since they had to leave israel, maybe they should be allowe back? Got me on that one! What a mess!
2. Also not sure about the "recognition." Obviously the majority of the population is Jewish. About 5.5 million out of the approx 7.4 million are Jewish so for all intensive purposes it is a Jewish state! However the two state solution sounds like a good thing to me! Then there are two recognized states, one Jewish and the other Palestinian! People should just try to get along but there are always war mongers and powerful people who make big money off war, plus the greedy people who want land and or their resources!

Thanks for the conversation Alan, I mean Josh, lol!
Marty
 

Erica Stuart (0)
Sunday May 17, 2009, 1:25 am
Marty I really appreciate your comment with Josh and I will not but in because you know more about the issues you are discussing that I do.
 

Marty H (119)
Sunday May 17, 2009, 1:36 am
Erica, please do add your thoughts! Never hurts to learn from each other!
 

Erica Stuart (0)
Sunday May 17, 2009, 1:48 pm
Marty: I made an academic decision never to comment on something of which I have no facts or personal knowledge only an opinion that does not contribute to solutions
Erica.
 
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