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It's a Crime to Point Out Israel's Crimes


World  (tags: BDS, Israel, boycott, settlement, illegal, zero, tolerance, Canada )

Sam
- 1346 days ago - cbc.ca
The Harper government is signaling its intention to use hate crime laws against Canadian advocacy groups that encourage boycotts of Israel.



   

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Comments

Sam H (410)
Monday May 11, 2015, 4:21 pm
Pretty soon groups like the United Church of Canada and the Canadian Quakers will be charged with hate crimes for boycotting products from illegal Israeli settlements.
 

Sam H (410)
Monday May 11, 2015, 4:21 pm
First They Stole Their Land, Now They’re Stealing Your Freedom.
 

Sandrea S (278)
Monday May 11, 2015, 4:32 pm
Hard to believe this is happening in Canada. Can't wait for Harper to be ousted this Fall - unless he finds new ways to cheat his way in to power.
Noted and tweeted.....thanks, Sam!
#ABC2015 (Anything But CONservatives)
 

Carrie B (306)
Monday May 11, 2015, 5:41 pm
How very discriminatory of them.
 

. (0)
Monday May 11, 2015, 7:34 pm
The truth does not fear investigation.
 

Past Member (0)
Monday May 11, 2015, 7:45 pm
Harper is despicable. He's running this country into the ground since he took office. Sometimes you wonder if he's jewish. Counting the days til he disappears from his high perch. thx Sam
 

. (0)
Monday May 11, 2015, 8:10 pm
Oh boy. . .
 

Maria Teresa Schollhorn (42)
Monday May 11, 2015, 10:53 pm
Incredible!
Noted. Thanks Sam.
 

DaleLovesOttawa O (198)
Monday May 11, 2015, 11:20 pm
Wonder if Harper will attempt to criminalize those who boycott Canadian maple syrup because of the seal hunt?

Nyack C, 90 percent of seals are shot with rifles and not clubbed. Most Canadians are opposed to the Newfoundland seal hunt, but governments pay no attention because they are afraid of losing votes if they end the seal hunt. Ottawa could just buy out the seal hunt and pay sealers a bit more than they get from the hunt and solve that problem easily.

Whatever one's position is on the BDS campaign, it seems that any federal government attempt to use hate crime laws against specific boycotts will fly against the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and this will (if attempted by a federal government) be challenged in the courts by Civil Liberties Associations, since it is more in the realm of politics than anything else it appears. Israel and supporters of Israel will likely run their own counter-campaigns against boycotts if they so choose, so obviously there is more than one version/source of information for people hearing about boycotts to choose from. Just because a boycott attempt is made, does not mean it will be agreed with. Some will choose to boycott, some will choose to ignore a boycott (of any issue).

If some boycott Palestinian products or whatever for political reasons, will that also become illegal? Will Harper also attempt to outlaw the boycott of American products because of some U.S. foreign policy in the future?

What about boycotting Monsanto, if the company starts to portray this as somehow being an example of "anti-Americanism?"


Next, perhaps Harper will attempt to outlaw the boycott of the Conservative Party of Canada in the next federal election.
 

DaleLovesOttawa O (198)
Tuesday May 12, 2015, 12:08 am
I am sure it is...but Canada produces 80 percent of the world's maple syrup. I like Ontario maple syrup, it is close by and I have even made my own.

I did not say that it was 'acceptable', I merely reported that most seals are no longer clubbed (a lot of people happen to believe that *all* seals are clubbed.) As with most Canadians, we tend to be against the seal hunt in its various forms, but Ottawa is too chicken to end it because they are afraid of losing votes in the Newfoundland/Labrador region. If they simply bought out the seal hunt and ended it in Newfoundland, then, it would no longer be in existence. Problem solved.

 

DaleLovesOttawa O (198)
Tuesday May 12, 2015, 12:15 am
My main point was that in the end, there is no point in the seal hunt.
 

Angelika R (143)
Tuesday May 12, 2015, 8:42 am
@ Sandrea- they thought the same about Cameron, too- and look what happened!

I'm just waiting for the Zionists to seduce OUR govt to follow suit, won't happen, they're not going to cut off the hand that also feeds them generously.
Pretty sickening currently these days in Berlin, celebrating the 50 yrs of bilateral diplomatic relations- what a show of hypocricy... emphasizing Palestinians rights and the two-state solution while on the same day selling them more military equipment.
Must be some "anniversary gift" worth $ 480 Mn for "patrol boats to secure Israel's gas fields"!

Thank you Sam- so, 'welcome to the crime club' to our Canadian friends!
 

Angelika R (143)
Tuesday May 12, 2015, 9:17 am
One thing is for sure: even if countries enforce laws to criminalise and prosecute people and groups advocating BDS, they can't prosecute the customers who choose to boycott products.
Guess by Israel's definition I've been a "political terrorist" for some time then and happy about it!
 

Sandrea S (278)
Tuesday May 12, 2015, 10:33 am
Yup... terrible for Britain. I think the Con Reform Party is losing ground : )
Hopefully the next government won't have their hands in the zionist pie!
 

Sheryl G (359)
Tuesday May 12, 2015, 11:49 am
Well if Alberta is any indication of things to come, in hopes it will be bye bye bye to Harper next election.
Alberta Election

I wonder if the Canadian elected officials also have to sign a pledge to another Country, putting their very own sovereignty below another Countries.
Sign The Pledge Or Those Who Elected You Get Nothing And You Elected Official Get Nothing Either

The ole' sign zee papers please.
 

Evelyn B (63)
Tuesday May 12, 2015, 12:29 pm
Isn't it strange that one side of the MOUTH is saying BDS isn't hurting anyone (except perhaps those Palestinians who work for the nice kind settlement companies) ....

While the other side of the MOUTH calls BDS action "terrorist"!!

I can't help feeling that BDS IS having an effect .... whether applied specifically to (illegal) settlement products & companies profitting from the occupation/ oppression - ot the broader full scale BDS that includes Israeli companies & products. And some of the strongest "full BDS" activists are Jews with a conscience. Which rather belies those who try to make BDS an Anti-Semitic movement! Despite the fact it was started by Semites (Palestinians, in Palestine) & supported by a reasonable number of Jews ......

But of course, the MOUTH & pro-Zionist supporters will call those Jews "self-hating", because they can't stand the idea that any Jews of principle might not condone what is done in the name of Zionism....

Thanks, Sam
 

Kathleen Mireault (211)
Tuesday May 12, 2015, 1:15 pm
Thanks, Sam. Suspect if BDS was ineffective, its target would ignore it..
 

Sam H (410)
Tuesday May 12, 2015, 1:17 pm
And if you thought only Canada was paying the price, well, check out this one:

http://www.care2.com/news/member/223806899/3879698
 

Angelika R (143)
Tuesday May 12, 2015, 1:22 pm
Exactly correct Kathleen! I'd assume the damage it has already done is probably treated as some secret inside Israel. I have no doubt it must be enormous by now, given the gigantic campaigns against it.
 

Sam H (410)
Tuesday May 12, 2015, 1:30 pm
You can’t bear arms to resist the occupation. You can’t use peaceful means to resist the occupation. You can’t point out Israel’s crimes without being accused of a hate crime. Well, the rest of the world might as well DROP DEAD!

In this fight between Humanity and Zionism, it’s quite clear who’s winning.
 

Lona G (66)
Tuesday May 12, 2015, 4:40 pm
A boycott of goods is soon to be a hate CRIME? In Canada? Who turned my word upside down when I wasn't looking? It sounds all way over the top somehow, very desperate with a hint of fear. What could possibly be the hold Israel has on these right wing governments? Perhaps it's nothing more than people in office can never admit to being wrong or having made a mistake and need to continue to the very end, even while their constituents have long seen the error of their way.

I think you made an excellent point, Evelyn, the hasbara can't have it both ways, if BDS is ineffective there is no need to turn it into a hate crime. Be assured, it is both effective and annoying in that it draws more and more attention.
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday May 12, 2015, 4:41 pm
Whoever wonders why Harper implemented laws against BDS should remember that Islamists were planning to behead him several years go right here, in Canada.

Not that these home-grown terrorists were poor or coming from defunct families. These young men came from good Muslim homes with professional parents.

So, Harper knows the truth quite well.

Needless to say, he will get my vote.
 

Sam H (410)
Tuesday May 12, 2015, 4:46 pm
It’s Just Unbelievable!

In Canada, they’re losing their freedom of speech!

And here in the US, we’re losing our sovereignty!

http://www.care2.com/news/member/223806899/3879698

How long can these things keep going on?
 

Sandrea S (278)
Tuesday May 12, 2015, 5:16 pm
Last I checked Michigan is not in Canada. Is Harper accepting votes from other countries now? LOL!
I guess all dictators have their fans and groupies.
 

Freya H (345)
Tuesday May 12, 2015, 6:24 pm
In the long run, the only people who benefit from this bullcrap are Jew-haters. News like this is meat and drink to them. As long as it appears that Israel's tail is wagging the world's dog, neo-Nazis and other hate groups will milk stuff like this for all it's worth.
 

Sam H (410)
Tuesday May 12, 2015, 6:32 pm
Gandhi committed such unforgivable hate crimes when he fasted to promote peace. Luckily, he didn’t end up on the cross like other fellow who preached peace!
 

Darlene B (100)
Tuesday May 12, 2015, 6:47 pm
As a Canadian it is appalling that our Prime Minister is turning speaking out against Israel into a hate crime. Canada used to stand as a peace keeper and a role model of how to live in peace. Now we are taking sides and bombing people. This is not the direction that most Canadians want to go. Harper is not speaking for Canadians but for his own personal agenda. Harper also passed a draconian terrorist bill that gives the state more powers to spy on Canadian people. We are not in Canada anymore. I can only say that don't let Harper make you think that he is representing Canadians and that this is what we want to be a warmonger like our neighbours to the South. Most Canadians support peace in the Middle East and that means for both Israel and Palestine and do not favour one over the other.
May the Middle East find a way to peace!
 

Vicky P (476)
Tuesday May 12, 2015, 7:08 pm
haha, he did deny it since, I'm not sure if it's true or not, if it is it's bullshit and most people will tell him that. Freedom of speech isn't to be tossed aside because Harper loves one country a bit too much
 

ParsifalAWAY S (99)
Tuesday May 12, 2015, 8:09 pm

Java oranges ?

hasbara means 'Information' ?

SERIOUSLY ?

maybe hasbara means the stolen from the Palestinians Jaffa farms

 

ParsifalAWAY S (99)
Tuesday May 12, 2015, 8:12 pm

hasbara:

'BDS is illegal under international law as collective punidhment.'

WHO is the 'international' ! ?
 

Past Member (0)
Tuesday May 12, 2015, 8:35 pm
Harper does not want Canada to support Arabs in their diplomatic war against Israel.

Note that the BDS campaign says nothing about Arab states, which are know for much greater violation of human rights, than Israel.

Arab states took Canada for dhummies for too long. UAE had the gall to refuse senior military officers to land on Canadian military base for not capitulating to their demands of preferred treatment on landing rights.

It is this government told Arab states to respect Canadian laws when dealing with Canada.

That's why Harper is not popular among Islamic and Arab apologists here.
 

Sam H (410)
Tuesday May 12, 2015, 9:11 pm
Neither is he popular among Canadians!

You must have missed Dandelion’s post above!

http://www.care2.com/news/member/928626362/3878148
 

Henriette M (154)
Tuesday May 12, 2015, 9:48 pm
Harper is a Zionist puppet like Obama! What Israhell want, it gets but like Darlene Buckingham comment says it well! Most Canadian are Peace loving citizens. Harper follows his own corrupt agenda & kiss ass to Israhell!
 

Alexa R (319)
Tuesday May 12, 2015, 10:48 pm
Whoa .. well done Harper for your high sense of integrity and morality on this matter even in the face of violent and barbaric opposition ..
 

Stan B (123)
Wednesday May 13, 2015, 3:43 am
I'm about to send a message of support to the Harper government for its sensible policy.
Thanks for the heads up, Sam.
Are you still logging on to the David Duke web site Henriette?
 

Rose Becke (141)
Wednesday May 13, 2015, 4:01 am
I agree with Freya
 

Sam H (410)
Wednesday May 13, 2015, 4:29 am
Go ahead, Stan. I’ll be writing to thank this LADY!
 

Angelika R (143)
Wednesday May 13, 2015, 5:00 am
Sam, I'd gladly join you in that! Is why I've been saying on threads here how I hope those groups like Breaking the Silence and B'tselem and others wll have sent a copy of their findings and evidence to her!

Her threat of "perhaps choosing one side only" is not clearly defined to which one she has in mind, one can merely guess. But the warning is clear and I really dont understand what the PA was waiting for??
Nuttenyahoo had stated from start that they would NOT provide any information but preferred to have it "învestigateed in-house" -lol ^^
 

Angelika R (143)
Wednesday May 13, 2015, 5:10 am
I wouldn't be too surprised either if next we hear about some alledged imminent islamist terror threat planned on the Netherlands... they've been pretty good so far in playing the IS card!
 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 13, 2015, 6:13 am
You cannot trust Sam - he continues lying about the article titles and the photos.

The real title of the article is "Ottawa cites hate crime laws when asked about its 'zero tolerance' for Israel boycotters".

After all, Koran allows believers to lie to promote their cause.

 

. (0)
Wednesday May 13, 2015, 6:17 am
I hardly think that you're in any position to lecture anyone on inveterate liars. . .
 

Angelika R (143)
Wednesday May 13, 2015, 7:15 am
Actually, the post should be titled 'It's a crime to NOT point out Israel's crimes' (or any country's for that matter) as that means boycotting the law and blocking the system of justice ! With regard to Israel, THAT has been done for far too long already!
 

Lona G (66)
Wednesday May 13, 2015, 7:27 am
I hope not, Angelika, because that would suit our Geert Wilders and his ilk to damn well. But if ICC should take it upon itself to go for a large investigation, Wilders will do everything in his power to provoke such an attack. He'll have no qualms about stageing an international Muhammad Cartoon drawing contest in a conference center next to the ICC. We'd be next in line then to see criticism of Israel turned into a hate crime and see the BDS finished in parliament by Wilders.
 

Angelika R (143)
Wednesday May 13, 2015, 7:36 am
Lona, your comment apparenty is in response to mine of 5:10 and not the last one ? I can see your point about Wilders, ok. Of course, nobody hopes for that to happen, was just a belly-feeling remark. ;)
 

Carol R (11)
Wednesday May 13, 2015, 7:53 am
Another dangerous legal way to shut down any criticism of Israel's political policies. Just as barbara (sheyna) d tried to do by starting a thread called Political Incorrectness on Care2 7 months ago in an effort to get articles disagreeing with Israel's policies or concerning the Palestinians banned from Care2. as "hate" articles. As it's a public forum thread I shall post it here. The thread is a very interesting read, including 2 letters from support directed at barb d. about her conduct towards those who have differing opinions, which is why I suspect barbara d was suspended. I'll just post the first letter from support to her:

http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?gpp=187&pst=1853489


CareTwo S.
7 months ago

Hi Barbara,

The Isreal/Palestine conflict is one that World Leaders have been at loggerheads over for many years, but one that members of Care2 often post about and can debate without taking it too far. Is there an *answer* to that issue or should it or any hot topic be open to discussion and debate?

Unfortunately, just looking at some of your very own, most recent posts, I would hardly say that were being the kindest towards others with a view in opposition to your own on not just this topic, but others as well. I know that will surely be met with your disagreement, but I am not here for debate on politics or issues.

The flagging system is in place to track what our members deem to be inappropriate comments and they are reviewed with regards to content and language, not politics. Your two most recent comments contain calling another member a *sock puppet* and the one before that you say it is like *talking to doorknobs*. 2 most recent, mind you. I do not remove those, but they are also not looking to make any attempt of civil conversation, either.

Are you being both civil and within boundaries? Please use the flags and also, simply please consider your own words and how you would expect someone to react IF you address them in that manner(Parrots, lacking integrity).

From above: (legimate source,self-proclaimed,Propaganda,fallacious statements,beyond the boundaries, nearly profane epithets). The meaning of words alone are very personal in nature as far as an individual opinion goes.

C2NN accepts links that members want to share...is it up to you or I or anyone to decide if it is a legitmate source, or can members discuss and debate the posted item without asking for another member to be removed? I also ask, are you going on to an opposing view, having a heated debate and then....??

Nothing personal or political, or having to do with diet choices or any issue or topic other than content. I know it goes both ways, so that is why the flags are there, so please use them and not verbal retalliation.
send green star


Thanks Sam.









 

fly b (26)
Wednesday May 13, 2015, 8:20 am
I agree with Kathleen, and some good suggestions. Thanks, Sam.

Btw, it seems like David Duke presented information and facts that others have substantiated, despite accusations and your obvious disapproval. Needless to say, that bigotry, retaliation and attacks on people, speaking out, are sure to follow, when the violations of International Laws and Palestinian human rights by the state of Israel are exposed.

 

Sheryl G (359)
Wednesday May 13, 2015, 9:32 am
One doesn't use David Duke to substantiate anything......

David Ernest Duke is an American White nationalist, antisemitic conspiracy theorist, far-right politician, and former Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan.

Need I say more.
 

Sam H (410)
Wednesday May 13, 2015, 9:35 am
Vatican Recognizes Palestine
 

ParsifalAWAY S (99)
Wednesday May 13, 2015, 9:43 am

Canada and I bet my arse soon the majority of the other rogue states - means practically all countries of the West are about to push through these laws to protect a fascist dictatorship that has terrorized for several decades, speak since it's illegal foundation not only the indigenous people and its neighbors on the most violent but also has covered the rest of the world with its cowardly, dastardly terrorists.

And as a hasbara puppets like Zionist Bob Algeron, Sheyna P. (Barbara) with one of her profiles, Zionist Stan B. and Zionist Alexa R. have indeed the audacity to talk about 'hate speech' and denigrate those who step in for basic human rights like HUMANE freedoms and 'lived democracy' and thus advocate this inhuman laws.

How sick is that ?

How sick is that a country carries out such massive impact on the whole world unpunished, display with impunity and strengthened this behavior on a daily basis ?

How sick it is above all that a country dares, even deems necessary to threaten those compassionate fellow human beings who speak out and share the truth proceed with phony laws ?

How sick is that those who have been entrusted with the task to represent their citizens and to ensure their welfare are being disastrous betrayed to a country which otherwise does not comply with any international treaties and continuously threatens the entire planet with the Samson Doctrine !

We made the unforgiveable mistake that we have silently watched far too long or looked the other way, where, meanwhile fascism has crept in like in the brown times when the Führer came to power.

 

Past Member (0)
Wednesday May 13, 2015, 10:51 am
The real article title is "AIPAC-backed amendments add to trade bill turmoil".

Sam lied about the article, and I certainly can point everyone to his lies.

Sam's second lie was to attach a photo taken somewhere else. Everyone following the link can see that the original photo is very different.

Koran allows believers to lie, I understand, but don't tell me that these are not lies.

I would settle on "These lies are permitted by Koran, because they promote the cause of Umma and that was said by Mohammad himself".

 

ParsifalAWAY S (99)
 

ParsifalAWAY S (99)
Wednesday May 13, 2015, 11:38 am

@ Zionist Bob Algeron

'All of the Palestinians must be killed; men, women, infants, and even their beasts'
- Rabbi Yisrael Rosen, director of the Tsomet Institute

'We are a people of vultures living on the labor (of the host nation) and the good nature of the rest of the world...We come to the nations pretending to escape persecution, we the most deadly persecutors in all the wretched annals of man' - Samuel Roth, Jews Must Live, 1934, p. 18

'We mustn't forget that some of greatest murderers of modern times were Jewish'
- Sever Plocker, Jewish writer

 

Sam H (410)
Wednesday May 13, 2015, 12:54 pm
Did I post the wrong link before?

Vatican Recognizes Palestine
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Wednesday May 13, 2015, 1:31 pm

Thanks Sam for letting me know that I soon may be branded a ??? ... what is it going to be called? It's kind of fascinating that BDS is OK as long as it's the West applying it on those countries it eyes the resources of ... but would never condone such behavior if it is applied in the hope to achieve justice and lasting peace!

Nyack - as a side issue here: I believe what Dale tries to say is that seal hunting could be ended almost instantly if the political will would be there. Quite obvious from what Dale is writing is that "politics" has its ulterior motives for not doing the necessary!

 

Janet B (0)
Wednesday May 13, 2015, 1:39 pm
Thanks
 

Lois Jordan (63)
Wednesday May 13, 2015, 3:00 pm
Noted. Thanks, Sam.
Canada would really go that far? Kind of surprised me. The article didn't indicate it was a "done deal" yet, though. And, I agree with others' above comments that BDS is really having an effect that scares Israel. Unfortunately, rather than pull back a bit on the rhetoric, Israel just continues with more aggression. That is always a big mistake. Haven't they had enough blowback yet?
 

Stan B (123)
Wednesday May 13, 2015, 5:46 pm
Not difficult for the Vatican to recognise a Palestinian state. It isn't under daily attack from Palestinian terrorists.
 

marie C (163)
Wednesday May 13, 2015, 5:52 pm
What a sad nasty thread so much anger
 

David B (34)
Wednesday May 13, 2015, 7:35 pm
my poor country . he is destroying it .
 

Darlene B (100)
Thursday May 14, 2015, 7:09 am
Israel used to have the support of the World and are losing it because they have shown that they are the same as what they were "defending" against and to live with dignity and peace. Canada instead of standing for the higher ideals of peace has taken sides and how is this going to solve anything? Canada used to be an example of how to live in peace but is now no better than anyone who believes that violence will ever solve anything.
People of peace all over the world uniting together with the ideals of human dignity and living with grace are coming together and will overcome all governments that promote war as a solution to our problems.
 

fly b (26)
Thursday May 14, 2015, 9:49 am
Sheyna et al, More diversions and hasbarah, unwilling to address the subject; too busy, trying to distract and post propaganda.

"..…and they became exactly what they hated and feared once themselves."
 

Past Member (0)
Thursday May 14, 2015, 12:18 pm
Parsifal, I don't know where did you get those quotes and I never heard names of people you are quoting.

You dawa sounded OK, but had little sense. You cannot talk about Israelis "killing Palestinians" when Arab birth rate in Gaza is the highest in the World.

Thanks to our tax money and UNWRA paying subsidies per child, many families in Gaza have 15 kids, or more. Hamas declared contraception un-Islamic.

I would say that This is quite a nice "genocide", but I won't.

I will not let Arabs steal a word Genocide, which belongs to people killed by millions just for belonging to and ethnic group.

Arabs in Israel and West Bank are doing quite well, Arab immigration to Israel is all time high, and only Parsifal and his "SPECIAL" buddies are agitation the world against Israel.
 

Janet B (0)
Thursday May 14, 2015, 12:44 pm
Thanks
 

. (0)
Thursday May 14, 2015, 1:38 pm
67 Years Of Continuous Nakba In The Holy Land Of Palestine
- - - Dr Salim Nazzal

When I was a kid, my father used to summon me on the 15th of May to tell me about the events of Nakba that I did not witness. Like all my generation, I paid the price of the Nakba that I did not live. I inherit it from my family so to speak. I remember how my parents were sentimental while remembering its events. At school, our teachers all witnessed the Nakba recalled its events. At that age, it was difficult to understand its implications on those who lived it.But we naturally felt it through many things. The hardest feeling of all this is the knowledge that we see everybody has a home expect us.

Like all Palestinians, I grew up with pain, bitterness, and anger about the unjust which took place in Palestine like these days in 1948.Like these days in May 1948,East European Jewish terrorists, did all sorts of atrocities, from murder to rape, to burning houses, and to expel Palestinians from their cities and villages.

Like all generation of Palestinian who lived the Nakba and who did not, we never understand the level of hypocrisy the west has reached. We know very well that the Zionist state get support by most of the western world. In other word, the most powerful western states stood against my small nation and wanted it to die.

The declaration of the death of Palestine and the birth of Israel is the worst nightmare that happened to my nation. A culture that lived thousands of years was brutaly destroyed.The holy land was covered of innocent Palestinian blood. Palestinians never stop asking the question why a Jew from Poland or Ukraine or Russia or the US has the right to live in our home country, and we denied that right. Why any Jew can live free in my home and my nation either under occupation or in exile?

My people did no wrong to anybody .They were engaged to plant and harvest their fields to feed their families. But they had to suffer almost a century because Europe wanted to solve the European Jewish problem outside Europe. And Palestinians had to pay the price.

Many Palestinians were not even aware of the Jewish history in Europe, this history which my nation has paid and still pays for it.

Zionist Jews need to know that not by any way Palestinians accept less than their rights. Yes, Zionist Jews are powerful now but things will change one day.

It will change for sure. My generation may be dead then, but I'm sure that a new generation of Palestinians will walk freely in Haifa and Yaffa, and all Palestine. And Zionism will be no more than a nightmare in the history of Palestine.

http://www.countercurrents.org/nazzal140515.htm
 

David B (34)
Thursday May 14, 2015, 8:33 pm
remember when we were a well respected country ? no more . when we had set of environmental laws . no more .remember when we looked after our own country , instead of selling it out to foreign oil companies no more. remember when we had a prime minister instead of a dictator .someone who because he has a majority government changes everything to the way he sees it .no matter how wrong it is . remember Canada ??
 

Sandrea S (278)
Friday May 15, 2015, 3:30 am
I remember David, and we're going to fix that this Fall! Join Leadnow.ca to get some inspiration - if you haven't already.
I'm helping @leadnowca (re)generate our democracy! Join me #yourcnda #cdnpoli
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Friday May 15, 2015, 7:00 am

Bob - I really like your avatar; as I told you the horse looks beautiful!!

For the sake of the horse - if for nothing else - go back to whoever taught you the word "Dawah" and slap him/her in the face or kick his/her butt for me.

“Dawah” linguistically means simply invitation.
In the religious context it means “inviting people to Islam”.

Now - where did anyone here or elsewhere invite anyone to anything? Or to Islam?

What is it anyway that you want to express with "Dawah"? If I'd know I might be able to supply you with another fancy Arabic word which really expresses what you want to state?

And mind you ... no charges for this service - LOL. Although we're not friends I just don't like it if you make a fool of yourself.

 

Past Member (0)
Friday May 15, 2015, 12:47 pm
Eleonora,

Here is my post from another thread posted by Sam, where he attached false title and a false photo as well, like here.

Dawah is also spreading the Islamic point of view. Often, Arab apologists show double standards for Israel and Palestinian Arabs, many of which rely on Islamic rules (unity of Umma, demand for lands once governed by Islam to be returned to Islam, etc).

While USA has 51 state, internationally is has only one voice. So does China, with 22 provinces. So does India, etc. Having 22 States gives Arab Nations a huge leverage of manipulating International bodies, like UN. 80% or more of all UN resolutions discussing human right violations are devoted to Israel. Don't you see huge bias here?

What happens internally, how Indian bands manage their affairs is a different issue.

I think Native Indians got good deals with the government here and get a special treatment and have special rights. I don't know their affairs in US. I believe European civilization brought Indians some benefits.

I am not saying Saddam was right or wrong to invade Kuwait to reclaim a former Iraqi province. It depends if Kuwaiti people wanted to join back to Iraq, if Saddam wanted to protect some minorities or just was grabbing Kuwaiti oil, etc.

But I consider the support which Arabs from Palestine, residing in Kuwait, gave to Saddam to be a betrayal of their hosts. Kuwait let them in, 300,000 of theirs, and Palestinians had to be grateful for it.

Don't you see similarity that these are the same Arabs from Palestine, and their descendants, who betrayed their Jewish neighbors in Palestine and sided with the attacking Arab states in 1948? Has this tradition made them unwanted in other Arab states?

Both of us don't like double standards then.

 

Sam H (410)
Friday May 15, 2015, 1:10 pm
OOPS! I thought those 300,000 Palestinians in Kuwait were just Arab migrants who worked the land of Palestine. Remember there were no Palestinians in Palestine when the European Zionist got there--just a welcoming, empty desert!
 

Sam H (410)
Friday May 15, 2015, 1:17 pm
"I think Native Indians got good deals..." This is like saying Jews got good deals after the Holocaust--the whole country of Palestine. What a despicable way to gloss over the suffering of people!
 

Past Member (0)
Friday May 15, 2015, 1:17 pm
The *European Zionists* got there in 1882, not 1948.
 

Sam H (410)
Friday May 15, 2015, 1:21 pm
So how/why did those 300,000 Palestinians, that Bob speaks of, end up in Kuwait?
 

Sam H (410)
Friday May 15, 2015, 1:23 pm
Double Standards! Native Americans still don't have their OWN land back!
 

Past Member (0)
Friday May 15, 2015, 1:30 pm
Israel is 8,019 sq mi. "Palestine" is not a country, it's a region. What kind of a good deal did Syria, Jordan, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip get? They also occupy the region.
 

Past Member (0)
Friday May 15, 2015, 1:35 pm
They left voluntarily or were ordered to leave, I e. Haifa and Jaffa. How could they have been forced if, as they admitted, "they never saw an Israeli soldier".,
 

Sam H (410)
Friday May 15, 2015, 3:07 pm
Excellent point! Since they left voluntarily, they should be able to return voluntarily! Q.E.D.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Friday May 15, 2015, 3:09 pm

Oh Bob! Didn’t I suggest that you should go back to that person who told you the definition of “Dawah” and slap him/her in the face or kick his/her butt? I suggest you do just that.

No matter how you – or your “handlers” – twist and re-interpret or re-invent definitions in the Arabic language … “Dawah” simply can’t mean “Dawah is also spreading the Islamic point of view”.

I give you examples of the use of “Dawah” = invitation:

Dawah rasmeya = official invitation

Dawah khassa = private invitation

Dawah illa al Islam = invitation to Islam

But yes, as we have seen with Beth S./Gilian/Ge dotting one’s comment with Arabic words seems to be the going thing as it can be safely assumed that the absolute big majority of Care2 members don’t speak/understand Arabic. And … it looks soooo good, doesn’t it? Gives the impression that the writers knows it all – LOL!! What does it matter that the term is wrong?!

I hope you’re not upset if I don’t address the rest of your comment re Arab states attacking Israel, etc. as I’m not known to waste my time – unless I want to get a clearer picture. And the picture is very clear now, thank you ever so much!

Instead I suggest that you check out this posting in a discussion with Stephen of Sunday May 18, 2014, 2:08 pm: “In this context we should also not obliterate the fact that BEFORE the creation of the State of Israel the Zionists stole under “Plan Dalet” another portion of the territories allotted to the Palestinians; some 22% of it. See also the “The History of the Palmach” (HaSepher HaPalmach) which was released in portions in the 1950s (and in full in 1972) which details the efforts made to attack the Palestinian Arabs and secure more territory than alloted to the Jewish state by the UN Partition Plan (Kibbutz Menchad Archive, Palmach Archive, Efal, Israel).

If you have nothing anymore to read: sift at least once through the “HaSepher HaPalmach”. These are basically the memoires of the today’s IDF written by Jewish Israelis. I just point this out so you don’t think I’m leading you to some Arab sources as you despise them – LOL.

~*~*~*~

While talking to you I’d have a question: why did you delete this nice picture accompanying this comment by “Sheyna” from your comment board ;-)?
“May 7, 2015 5:42 PM
Sheyna P. (21)
Thank you for the request, Bob! You know my cousin on Care2, Barbara D. She asked me to tell you that Care2 suspended her so be careful what you say. Thanks again and I wish you a good weekend.”

Although it was for public consumption – or sheer stupidity on the side of the poster? – the picture of the horse was really nice.

 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Friday May 15, 2015, 3:11 pm

Hhmmm - the last sentence of my above comment didn't make it:

Bob, why did you delete Sheyna's warning today, on the 15th of May? Anything special happened today? I hope it was nothing nasty ... LOL.

 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Friday May 15, 2015, 3:12 pm

Bob – I had to read this paragraph of your reply a number of times and still don’t believe it!!

“I think Native Indians got good deals with the government here and get a special treatment and have special rights. I don't know their affairs in US. I believe European civilization brought Indians some benefits.”

Yes, they got a great deal and beautiful benefits = 100 Millions slaughtered and the remaining fraction has the special right and benefit to a live in misery in the reservations without a glimmer of hope. Great … and exactly what Israel has cut out for the Palestinians.

May I ask how you’re wired to be able to make such a disgraceful statement void of any compassion for 100,000,000 Million slaughtered human beings? Why do you bother than about the 6 Mio Jews killed in Nazi Germany? They shouldn’t even enter your mind!

When you say “got good deals with the government here …” – where is “here”? You follow this up by saying “I don’t know their affairs in US.” I checked again your profile … you live in the States and I assume you’re American? How do I understand this comment of yours?
 

Past Member (0)
Friday May 15, 2015, 4:14 pm
Eleonora,

I do not "slap him/her in the face or kick his/her butt", no matter who said that. I would not kick even Sam, with his lying titles and photos.

I wish I could have “handlers” - then I could get paid too, like many active Dawah activists here.

Sorry Eleonora, I will stick to Dawah definition as given to me by people who are not used to lying. If you think that "Dawah is also spreading the Islamic point of view." is not correct, please let me know the proper Arabic word for it or for Islamic propaganda, and I will check it out.

When making references to division of the land between Arabs and Jews, you seem to leave aside a fact that 80% of Palestine lands were given to Jordan, even before Jews were given anything. How is it exactly fair, that Arabs are getting two states on 85-90%+ of Palestine, and Jews - one state at 10-15%?

I am sure some Jewish author wrote something very appealing and "proving" that that's very fair. For just $300,000 USD 60 Israeli soldiers come up with 60 stories. Having money - getting stories is not a challenge.

Eleonora, I am not Care2 admin to delete any comments.

Native people in Canada were treated better than in US and go have nice rights and privileges. That is what I was referring to.

I don't feel like sharing any personal information.

Many Germans feel sincere guilt for the Jewish people. Germany offers compensation to Jews, restitution for the confiscated properties and has a special immigration program.

Hey, Arab states don't have any moral guilt and offer no compensation to Jews whom they robbed and kicked out. You know that Iraq took a special law to prevent former Jewish property from returning to owners.

I am sure you will skip this comment, like you usually do, because no Arab state can do anything wrong.

Speaking of double standards, you left my question behind:

"
I am not saying Saddam was right or wrong to invade Kuwait to reclaim a former Iraqi province. It depends if Kuwaiti people wanted to join back to Iraq, if Saddam wanted to protect some minorities or just was grabbing Kuwaiti oil, etc.

But I consider the support which Arabs from Palestine, residing in Kuwait, gave to Saddam to be a betrayal of their hosts. Kuwait let them in, 300,000 of theirs, and Palestinians had to be grateful for it.

Don't you see a similarity that these are the same Arabs from Palestine, and their descendants, who betrayed their Jewish neighbors in Palestine and sided with the attacking Arab states in 1948? Has this tradition made them unwanted in other Arab states? "

Can you answer this question?
 

Don H (45)
Saturday May 16, 2015, 11:16 am
Harper would like to adopt the US perpetual war style. How did Canada ever elect this creep?
 

Sandrea S (278)
Saturday May 16, 2015, 11:48 am
By adopting Republican style cheating tactics.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Saturday May 16, 2015, 3:53 pm

Bob – let’s clean up some misunderstanding first, what do you think?

1. I SUGGESTED to you that you slap or kick the one who told you how to use the word “Dawah” (your interpretation being “Dawah is also spreading the Islamic point of view”) because he/she misled you. I did NOT say that someone said this!

2. “Eleonora, I am not Care2 admin to delete any comments.”
I did NOT say that, Bob. I asked you why did you delete Sheyna’s comment on your COMMENT BOARD, which is on your profile page and which carries so many nice pics of horses. On that comment board YOU can delete comments – and you did so with Sheyna’s warning to you of
“May 7, 2015 5:42 PM
Sheyna P. (21)
Thank you for the request, Bob! You know my cousin on Care2, Barbara D. She asked me to tell you that Care2 suspended her so be careful what you say. Thanks again and I wish you a good weekend.”
Her comment was there until the morning of May 15 … and then it got deleted by YOU – LOL. I still maintain what I said in my initial comment above that this comment was either for public consumption or sheer stupidity on the side of the one who posted this comment on YOUR comment board – whoever that person was in reality.

3. I didn’t really want any personal info from you – don’t worry. Me hoping that it was nothing nasty that led you to delete the warning by “Sheyna” I mentioned under point 2 above was rather a polite gesture extended to you …

4. I don’t really appreciate your insinuation about me being a liar – if you believe that I lie I’d ask you to provide evidence for your allegations and post them here.

~*~*~*~

“Dawah”

I don’t know how to tell you in other words, Bob. “Dawah” is the word for invitation to which one attaches a descriptive adjective like “private, official” or whatever else. IF you’d check with someone who speaks proper Arabic and has not hasbara in mind he/she will confirm that this is correct.

There is no word for “Islamist” propaganda as this is a construct of the West. I assume one could give a roundabout description of it.

The word for (positive) propaganda or publicity (like in a campaign for a politician or a product) which is used in Arabic is

دعاية

Pronounced “d3aya”. The letter “3” symbolizes the letter “ع” which doesn’t exist in our alphabet and is pronounced “ayn”. Often it is also replaced with an apostrophe depending which transliteration method is used.

Now you can make with this explanation what you want and come up with whatever answer you want – it’s up to you. My Arabic Prof was laughing his head off when I double-checked with him and told me not to bother with “such” people.

Maybe I should have let it be the way it was used by you as nobody understands what you want to say anyway when you use the word “Dawah” – LOL. Why should I really care if you insist in making a laugh/fool out of yourself?!

~*~*~*~*~

Native Americans

Bob, acc. to your profile you’re in/from the USA (I checked before answering to you) – how should I conclude that you talk about the Native Indians in Canada?! And I still maintain that killing them by the millions also in Canada is not really a nice thing to do, you know? But again – that’s me. You obviously see things different … because after all TODAY they don’t get killed anymore and should be happy that only their ancestors got killed in the millions and their land and resources were stolen from them.

No wonder do you have such a full understanding and portray 100% support for the Zionist high way robbers …

~*~*~*~*~

Germans and the Jews

Any decent person feels empathy/compassion with people who are persecuted because of their religion whether these are Jews, Christians or Muslims (incl. all the many sub-groups all of the three religions have); or their race be it “white, black, brown or yellow”; or because of their sexual orientation … and so on. I strongly believe that the UDHR applies to ALL human beings as opposed to the Hasbaratchik Trolls here on Care2 who believe that they apply only to some.

Having said that the Germans of today are made to feel guilty for something they have not a shred of fault in if they’re born in 1930 or later. None. Simply because a child can’t be held responsible for the politics of the adults. I do not believe in the “original sin” nor do I believe in eternal accountability for the sins of the forefathers. BUT if this becomes the norm – and it should if the Germans of today are held responsible/accountable – then I’d suggest we all should get ready, hang our heads in shame and open up our bank accounts to all those we have slaughtered and are still slaughtering with impunity as I’m writing these lines.

Legally a case is closed once compensation (financial or otherwise) is paid.

In case of wars compensation is usually agreed upon – see the relevant docs about compensation. Israel is the one and only case where the payments are going on and on and new demands are popping up like the one some 14 months or so ago when Germany had to bleed an additional 270 Mio to Israel because the few Holocaust survivors in Israel don’t receive proper medicare in Israel.

As I said – today the “Holocaust” is a $$ machine which was perfectly described in Prof Norman Finkelstein’s book “The Holocaust Industry”. It’s desecrating the memories of all those Jewish people who died at the hands of the Nazis as well as humiliating the children and grandchildren of those who survived the horror.

~*~*~*~*~

Arab guilt

I’ve been sifting through some docs about the Jews who left the Arab States in those years. Give me a day to reply to this specific question of yours as I don’t like to make common place statements.

~*~*~*~*~

Kuwait

Iraq was protecting his own oil fields which were tapped by the Kuwaiti Government as was known then. Iraq issued a number of warnings to Kuwait – April Glaspie (then US Amb to Iraq) re-assured Saddam Hussein that the US doesn’t interfere in “pan-Arab disputes” (her words) which was the green light for the fool to invade Kuwait. He had threatened to do this if Kuwait doesn’t stop stealing Iraqi oil. Hussein had outlived his usefulness as he intended to disengage from the Petro-Dollar. Simple. I lived at that time in a Gulf State and we witnessed the build-up of the US troops starting in May 1990 !!… when Iraq invaded Kuwait only in August 1990. These are the simple facts. It was all well planned and he fell head-on in the trap.

That the Palestinians were supportive of Hussein is understood as he was practically the only one who stood up for them at that time – for ulterior motives but nevertheless. So yes, they cheered. And yes, it is betrayal in that sense although you obviously don’t have much of a hands-on experience how life is for expats in Kuwait. Fact is that all of these little “States” would collapse instantly if their foreign work force would leave.

When the Jews in NYC were filming the collapse of the Twin Towers and dancing on the roof would you consider this a betrayal too?

~*~*~*~*~

“Don't you see a similarity that these are the same Arabs from Palestine, and their descendants, who betrayed their Jewish neighbors in Palestine and sided with the attacking Arab states in 1948? Has this tradition made them unwanted in other Arab states? "

It saddens me to see that you just love to ask questions ad infinitum but don’t bother to read the answers. Would you bother to properly read my reply to you of Friday May 15, 2015, 3:09 pm and follow the link I provided you with therein you wouldn’t ask this question. Intellectual honesty doesn’t figure high on your agenda, does it?

I find it though kind of appalling that you call the fight of the Palestinians to hold on to the 22% remainder of their homeland “betrayal of their Jewish neighbors”. As I said read HaSepher HaPalmach or at least what I provided in the link.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Saturday May 16, 2015, 4:06 pm

For Bob - if you want to know more the letter “ayn”
 

Past Member (0)
Saturday May 16, 2015, 9:49 pm
Eleonora,

I did not delete any comments and don't know how to do that. I guess, when the Islamist lobby managed to convince Care 2 admin to suspend Barbara for her support of Israel, that comment was gone as well.

I don't see in my posts above anything calling you a liar. Please clarify.

I shall stick with using the word Dawah for now, with the meaning I told earlier. The other stuff is too uncertain, and I will try to check it when I have a chance.

Finkelstein is a known anti-Israel and anti-Jewish author, widely used by Arab propaganda because he is Jewish himself. His quote tells nothing, because he is corrupted too much.

Compensations for MVA victims could go for all their lives, and this is why Germany still pays to those who suffered from the Nazis.

Thank you for explaining Kuwait. I have a similar understanding before, you confirmed what I knew, and we are on the same page here.

"When the Jews in NYC were filming the collapse of the Twin Towers and dancing on the roof would you consider this a betrayal too? " This is a lie. Jews were not dancing on any roof. News showed Palestinian Arabs dancing on their streets, and weeping Jews. Many Jews were killed there to start with.

Only Arabs have a custom to dance when their enemies are killed. Others know that death is death.

"It saddens me to see that you just love to ask questions ad infinitum but don’t bother to read the answers. Would you bother to properly read my reply to you of Friday May 15, 2015, 3:09 pm and follow the link I provided you with therein you wouldn’t ask this question. Intellectual honesty doesn’t figure high on your agenda, does it?"

Eleonora, you must be kidding. On that post you refered me to "
Israel's Peres Says Netanyahu Blocked 2011 Peace Deal", posted by Sam. That Sam, who switched titles and photos of the articles. "Who said what" is one story, but who started wars is another. Arab states started the wars (What did Nasser said?), they are guilty and now THEY have to give THEIR OWN money and land to resettle their Arab brothers in time of need.

BTW, how do you explain, that no Arab state, except for Saddam's Iraq, showed any mercy towards their brothers from Palestine? What is special in those tribes/clans to make them so unwelcome in the Arab world?
 

Evelyn B (63)
Sunday May 17, 2015, 12:34 am
Eleonora
Some people only read (and register) answers that match what they want to hear!

The above discussion illustrates a total disinterest in truth when it is inconvenient! Especially when the answer/ information makes nonsense of the use being made of the word.

In reality, Bob isn't interested in anything concerning facts about Arabic & Arab culture - as summarised in "Honestly, neither I care" in another thread (talking about why Abbas is called Abu Mazen ... not the topic of the thread - Al Shabaka: A Bold Proposal: Palestine Should Give Its Refugees Citizenship)

He doesn't care about accuracy ... of origins or of meanings of words. For example, he calls me an Islamist - and is then "shocked" when I criticise ISIS & Islamist positions .... probably more shocked because people might realise that he throws terms around carelessly & inaccurately!! He loves an argument he keeps pushing about sources of UNRWA funds being from US but Arab States (according to him) not contributing ... but systematically ignores answers that include specific (audited) data on these ... especially when these data are compared with data on funds paid to Israel out of US tax payers' pockets!!

There is a saying, you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink ...

You made a good point - not sufficiently picked up by responses ...
If Boycott & Sanctions are hate crimes, how come these have been endorsed internationally for South Africa in the past, & Iraq, & Iran?
Are such movements only hate crimes if the illegal Israeli settlement products & related oppressive businesses are targetted?
 

Sam H (410)
Sunday May 17, 2015, 6:42 am
AIPAC Wants Congress to Criminalize BDS
 

Lona G (66)
Sunday May 17, 2015, 7:16 am
Eleonora
Thank you for such going through the trouble of posting this interesting information. It may not be on topic and it will never be appreciated by all commenting on this particular thread, but I don't think Sam minds in the least and I always like to learn more about other cultures and languages.

Bob has used your posting again to try to divert things away from the topic and has picked a favorite from his agenda again to insinuate things about Palestinians, just as he insinuate that you were a liar, Eleonora. It's his old favorite: "What is special in those tribes/clans [Palestinians] to make them so unwelcome in the Arab world?" I think it's about time to address this one, if not for Bob then for the sake of other commenters.

Bob, you have a point there. Palestinians have been treated very badly in the Arab world and have been for centuries. They are the cheap laborers for the oil states, allowed to work their fingers to the bone, but never allowed to become a citizen of those states. They get the same ill treatment from the ones in power as the Kurds and the Armenians, who also have been on the wrong end of the cultural stick in the Arab world for centuries. Europe has its Roma (or gypsies or wanderers) and not to forget, its Jews (Sephardic and Askenazi). The Rohingya come to mind for Asia. Now ask the question again, Bob, but now including all who are in the same situation: "What is special in those tribes/clans to make them so unwelcome in the world?" Try to answer that without racism showing.
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Sunday May 17, 2015, 3:14 pm

Bob – shall we go through your answers one by one?

Deleting comments on your Comment Board
One should not play dumb if one can get caught so easy. Even I know how to do that – LOL! You go on your profile page to the top of your comment board and click on the right hand top side “approve/settings” which gets you on the page “All Bob’s comments” (in your case), sift through all the comments you got from your friends and click on the “delete” icon which is under each comment. And the comment disappears like magic! As if you didn’t know that. And no, Care2 does NOT go there and delete at random a comment …

Barbara/Sheyna/Ari/dot/Penny/and whatever else he/she calls herself – IOW a multiple account/profile holder
This person got not suspended (if that’s what it is) because he/she/it supports Israel and we all incl. yourself know this very well. Supporting whatever cause in a polite, respectful and intellectual honest manner will never get anyone suspended or banned – except maybe if one supports and/or promotes genocide and ethnic cleansing.

All one needs to do is read the obnoxious and agitating slurs and slanders (not to mention the insults in Yiddish); the endless lies and false accusations against other members which were proven to be just that and supported by solid evidence; the willful and utterly disrespectful distortion of the names of participants … he/she/it used to hurl at anyone who he/she/it didn’t approve of or who dared to oppose the endless hasbara he/she/it kept spreading. If one goes time and again against the clearly defined Terms of Conduct of Care2 – and has been told to tune down by Care2 on a number of occasions even publicly in fora – then your insinuations are rather unbefitting for a person who’d like to be respected as a discussion partner.

Such behaviour of this participant is not limited to the issue of Israel but as you too well know the same behaviour was observed concerning other (non-political) topics.

~*~*~*~*~

Lying

After I had given you ample evidence of your wrong use of an Arabic term which you were told by whomever to mean “Dawah is also spreading the Islamic point of view” (= your definition) you came back in your answer of Friday May 15, 2015, 4:14 pm and told me: “Sorry Eleonora, I will stick to Dawah definition as given to me by people who are not used to lying.” This is explicitly implying that, hence, I’m the one who’s lying.

The point is moot now IMO as it is your prerogative to comment in a way that nobody understands what you want to say. What should I care?

~*~*~*~*~

Prof Norman Finkelstein

Naturally you can’t say anything else. Prof Finkelstein is the son of Holocaust survivors and IF you’d have bothered to read anything by him you’d know darn well that he – very much like Professors Reinhart, Pappé, Chomsky, Bar-Tal, N. Brown, Said, Chossudovsky, et al. ALWAYS provide solid and factual evidence by reputable sources which anybody can check independently.

Neither one of them – nor any member of JVP, GS, APN, Jews sans Frontières, Zochrot, IOA, B’Tselem, ICAHD, etc. (btw all of them Jewish Organisations) would ever resort to any of these so typical hasbara traits like it is done here on Care2 and elsewhere; i.e. throw some quotes, numbers, titles and/or excerpts of articles in a discussion infallibly always without any source and/or link and if others don’t like it and demand intellectual honesty … are facing ad hominem attacks and slurs and slander.

This is why – very much like all others – you have to resort to slander and character assassinate him. Doesn’t say much for you, my friend!

~*~*~*~*~

MVA?

I know two abbreviations for MVA; the first one being Mitral Valve Annuloplasty and the second one being Motor Vehicle Accident. I can rule out the first one I presume and – if the 2nd one is correct – can only shake my head.

Yes, compensation should and is paid to the individuals who suffered. But I’d love to see which insurance company not only pays the victim but also to the state of the victim a life-long compensation. Once you find such a company would you please notify me? I’d be curious to know their motivation.

~*~*~*~*~

Twin Towers and “Jews”

It seems to me that you must live in a bubble where there’s only one source of information. Even the New York Times (of all newspapers) reported on those guys, them mocking the fall of the Towers and having fun, the white van, and how these 5 guys were arrested and … the CIA intervened and ushered them out of the country over to Israel. I wonder if they were on the same flight – mind you while ALL flights were stopped!! – as the Bin Laden family who was equally being flown out on State planes? Because after all … these 5 Israelis were only recording the event with cameras which they set up on the day before, right? Nothing wrong with that.

The Palestinians dancing in the street video is said to have been taken on another occasion some 2 years prior to 9/11. I simply don’t know. For the sake of it let’s assume they did dance.

Now I do vividly remember that black day which changed so profoundly the world. How many Jews were killed? I do remember also the big gasp at this possibility as it’s known that thousands of Jews worked in the TT, among them two of our friends. After the initial big noise especially from Israel … there was profound silence in Israel about the “thousands of dead Jews” they claimed prior. I also remember Odigo confirming sending out text messages 2 hrs prior the attack to Jews working in the WTC. Out of the almost 3,000 funerals to be held in the aftermath there were 49 “Jewish” funerals.

Qui Bono? Excerpts from Haaretz interview with Colonel (res.) Daniel Reisner, who headed ILD (International Law Division in the Military Advocate General's Office)

“Did the attacks of September 11 influence your legal situation?

"Absolutely. When we started to define the confrontation with the Palestinians as an armed confrontation, it was a dramatic switch, and we started to defend that position before the Supreme Court. In April 2001 I met the American envoy George Mitchell and explained that above a certain level, fighting terrorism is armed combat and not law enforcement. His committee [which examined the circumstances of the confrontation in the territories] rejected that approach. Its report called on the Israeli government to abandon the armed confrontation definition and revert to the concept of law enforcement. It took four months and four planes to change the opinion of the United States, and had it not been for those four planes I am not sure we would have been able to develop the thesis of the war against terrorism on the present scale."”

~*~*~*~*~

As for the dancing or celebrating the death of the enemy: you obviously missed the nice picnic your Israeli friends enjoyed daily last summer, watching Gaza being bombed to smithereens from a hill top on the other side of the prison wall; sitting cozy in chairs, armed with binoculars and having fun watching the destruction their heroic IDF brought onto the Gazan population.

You should read more often the New York Times if you don’t mind me suggesting this. Although it was also reported in many other reputable newspapers I know you only trust pro-Israeli sources. Israelis Watch Bombs Drop on Gaza From Front-Row Seats

~*~*~*~*~

HaSepher HaPalmach

IF I were a mean person I’d say that you’re anti-Semitic as you don’t want to look at excerpts of Jewish Israeli documents and archives nor do you want to read the history of the IDF as recorded by them. Are you by any chance a crypto anti-Semite?!

It’s your loss if you don’t want to educate yourself further. Just because it happen to be an exchange between Stephen and me in one of Sam’s articles doesn’t take an iota away from the facts as reported by the IDF. But it’s your loss. Just stop keep coming back to this point if ultimately you are too lazy (???) to read and digest.

 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Sunday May 17, 2015, 3:19 pm
Bob, you seem to have some misconceptions about the wars. Let me go through in chronological order.

The Wars

1947-48
"In internal discussion in 1938 [David Ben-Gurion] stated that 'after we become a strong force, as a result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand into the whole of Palestine'... In 1948, Menachem Begin declared that: 'The partition of the Homeland is illegal. It will never be recognized. The signature of institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) will be restored to the people of Israel, All of it. And forever." Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."


"Before the end of the mandate and, therefore before any possible intervention by Arab states, the Jews, taking advantage of their superior military preparation and organization, had occupied ... most of the Arab cities in Palestine before May 15, 1948. Tiberias was occupied on April 19, 1948, Haifa on April 22, Jaffa on April 28, the Arab quarters in the New City of Jerusalem on April 30, Beisan on May 8, Safad on May 10 and Acre on May 14, 1948 ... In contrast, the Palestine Arabs did not seize any of the territories reserved for the Jewish state under the partition resolution." British author, Henry Cattan, "Palestine, The Arabs and Israel." [Nota Bene: These operations were part of “Plan Dalet” as recorded in HaSepher HaPalmach]


"Menahem Begin, the Leader of the Irgun, tells how 'in Jerusalem, as elsewhere, we were the first to pass from the defensive to the offensive ... Arabs began to flee in terror ... Hagana was carrying out successful attacks on other fronts, while all the Jewish forces proceeded to advance through Haifa like a knife through butter' ... The Israelis now allege that the Palestine war began with the entry of the Arab armies into Palestine after 15 May 1948. But that was the second phase of the war; they overlook the massacres, expulsions and dispossessions which took place prior to that date and which necessitated Arab states' intervention." Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."


The Deir Yassin Massacre
"For the entire day of April 9, 1948, Irgun and LEHI soldiers carried out the slaughter in a cold and premeditated fashion ... The attackers 'lined men, women and children up against the walls and shot them,' ... The ruthlessness of the attack on Deir Yassin shocked Jewish and world opinion alike, drove fear and panic into the Arab population, and led to the flight of unarmed civilians from their homes all over the country." Israeli author, Simha Flapan, "The Birth of Israel."


"By 1948, the Jew was not only able to 'defend himself' but to commit massive atrocities as well. Indeed, according to the former director of the Israeli army archives, 'in almost every village occupied by us during the War of Independence, acts were committed which are defined as war crimes, such as murders, massacres, and rapes'...Uri Milstein, the authoritative Israeli military historian of the 1948 war, goes one step further, maintaining that 'every skirmish ended in a massacre of Arabs.'" Norman Finkelstein, "Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict


"The armies of the Arab states entered the war immediately after the State of Israel was founded in May. Fighting continued, almost all of it within the territory assigned to the Palestinian state ... About 700,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled in the 1948 conflict." Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."


"The Arab League hastily called for its member countries to send regular army troops into Palestine. They were ordered to secure only the sections of Palestine given to the Arabs under the partition plan. But these regular armies were ill equipped and lacked any central command to coordinate their efforts ... [Jordan's King Abdullah] promised [the Israelis and the British] that his troops, the Arab Legion, the only real fighting force among the Arab armies, would avoid fighting with Jewish settlements ... Yet Western historians record this as the moment when the young state of Israel fought off "the overwhelming hordes' of five Arab countries. In reality, the Israeli offensive against the Palestinians intensified." "Our Roots Are Still Alive," by the Peoples Press Palestine Book Project.


"Following the outbreak of 1936, no mainstream (Zionist) leader was able to conceive of future coexistence without a clear physical separation between the two peoples - achievable only by transfer and expulsion. Publicly they all continued to speak of coexistence and to attribute the violence to a small minority of zealots and agitators. But this was merely a public pose ... Ben Gurion summed up: 'With compulsory transfer we (would) have a vast area (for settlement) ... I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it,'" Israel historian, Benny Morris, "Righteous Victims."


"Ben-Gurion clearly wanted as few Arabs as possible to remain in the Jewish state. He hoped to see them flee. He said as much to his colleagues and aides in meetings in August, September and October [1948]. But no [general] expulsion policy was ever enunciated and Ben-Gurion always refrained from issuing clear or written expulsion orders; he preferred that his generals 'understand' what he wanted done. He wished to avoid going down in history as the 'great expeller' and he did not want the Israeli government to be implicated in a morally questionable policy ... But while there was no 'expulsion policy', the July and October [1948] offensives were characterized by far more expulsions and, indeed, brutality towards Arab civilians than the first half of the war." Benny Morris, "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949"


"Israeli propaganda has largely relinquished the claim that the Palestinian exodus of 1948 was 'self-inspired'. Official circles implicitly concede that the Arab population fled as a result of Israeli action - whether directly, as in the case of Lydda and Ramleh, or indirectly, due to the panic that and similar actions (the Deir Yassin massacre) inspired in Arab population centers throughout Palestine. However, even though the historical record has been grudgingly set straight, the Israeli establishment still refused to accept moral or political responsibility for the refugee problem it- or its predecessors - actively created." Peretz Kidron, quoted in "Blaming the Victims," ed. Said and Hitchens.


"During May [1948] ideas about how to consolidate and give permanence to the Palestinian exile began to crystallize, and the destruction of villages was immediately perceived as a primary means of achieving this aim...[Even earlier,] On 10 April, Haganah units took Abu Shusha ... The village was destroyed that night ... Khulda was leveled by Jewish bulldozers on 20 April ... Abu Zureiq was completely demolished ... Al Mansi and An Naghnaghiya, to the southeast, were also leveled. … By mid-1949, the majority of [the 350 depopulated Arab villages] were either completely or partly in ruins and uninhabitable." Benny Morris, "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949. [Nota Bene: This too was part of “Plan Dalet”]


And to address the myth that the Palestinian leadership told the civilian population to flee to safer places (something every responsible leader would do anyway):

"The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) monitored all Middle Eastern broadcasts throughout 1948. The records, and companion ones by a United States monitoring unit, can be seen at the British Museum. There was not a single order or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine, from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is a repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put." Erskine Childers, British researcher, quoted in Sami Hadawi, "Bitter
Harvest."


1956
The 1956 war was started by Britain and France after Nasser nationalized the Suez Canal – mind you this Canal is on the sovereign soil of Egypt. Israel took advantage and hung on to “Mami’s tail”. Israel occupied Sinai and started exploiting its oil fields; compensation for the stolen oil is still outstanding. When Israel finally was forced to leave the Sinai Egypt was left with the clean-up of the environmental mess they created while exploiting and plundering the oil fields. Something which is clearly against International Law … like settling its own population in occupied territories.

The 1967 War was started by Israel; one confirmation was that France stopped the delivery of Mirage jet fighters to Israel. France had announced upfront that they will ban arms to the aggressing party. The fact that deliveries to Israel stopped speaks a clear language … other than what time witnesses have to say.

"The former Commander of the Air Force, General Ezer Weitzman, regarded as a hawk, stated that there was 'no threat of destruction' but that the attack on Egypt, Jordan and Syria was nevertheless justified so that Israel could 'exist according the scale, spirit, and quality she now embodies.'

Menahem Begin had the following remarks to make: 'In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.' "Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."

"I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it." Yitzhak Rabin, Israel's Chief of Staff in 1967, in Le Monde, 2/28/68

"Moshe Dayan, the celebrated commander who, as Defense Minister in 1967, gave the order to conquer the Golan ... [said] many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel, and the kibbutz residents who pressed the Government to take the Golan Heights did so less for security than for the farmland ... [Dayan stated] 'They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land ... We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was ... The Syrians, on the fourth day of the war, were not a threat to us.'" The New York Times, May 11, 1997


1973
This war was started by Egypt in order to take back the territory of Sinai which was occupied by Israel in 1967. Every State has under International Law the right to fight the occupation of its soil by a foreign army. Egypt was perfectly within the laws and its right.

At no time in history did Egypt or any other state ever attack Israel proper – even during the 1948 war, when the Arab states tried to secure the remaining 22% of Palestine for the Palestinians, Israel proper was not under attack. Time witnesses on both sides abound, factual evidence and credible testimonies by high ranking military as well as top politicians on both sides confirm these facts.

It’s only the Zionists and their myth-creaters as well as their foot soldiers who want to still convince the world otherwise.

In Israeli Prime Minister Moshe Sharatt's personal diaries, there is an excerpt from May of 1955 in which he quotes Moshe Dayan as follows: "[Israel] must see the sword as the main, if not the only, instrument with which to keep its morale high and to retain its moral tension. Toward this end it may, no - it must - invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the method of provocation and revenge ... And above all - let us hope for a new war with the Arab countries, so that we may finally get rid of our troubles and acquire our space." Quoted in Livia Rokach, "Israel's Sacred Terrorism."


Maybe you should frame this statement and read it every now and then:
“Toward this end it may, no - it must - invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the method of provocation and revenge ... And above all - let us hope for a new war with the Arab countries, so that we may finally get rid of our troubles and acquire our space.”

~*~*~*~*~

Palestinians in Arab countries

All Arab countries have a relatively big Palestinian population. Jordan is the only one who has granted them full citizenship although many live still in refugee camps. Pres. Nasser has allocated 10% of the University places to Palestinians free of charge and this is still in place. They do get the same treatment as other non-nationals – so where is your point exactly?

That they don’t grant them citizenship? Why should they give hand and be complicit in the ethnic cleansing undertaken by Israel? As you know ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity and I don’t blame any country who does stay away from such crimes.

While I do understand that Israel is used to the fact that it creates a problem and the rest of the world solves it … this one is to be solved by Israel. Quite simply. Like it should also pay compensation to all those who are denied return to their homes; like it should pay compensation to Gaza, Lebanon, Syria and Egypt. Like it should pay compensation for the many thousands of Palestinian homes it has destroyed inside Israel as well as in the Occupied Territories.

Personally I think it's high time that Israel becomes a nation within the nations, is held to the same standards as all other nations too and stops being a colonializing pariah state who can only exist with the Billions of taxpayer money from the US.


 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Sunday May 17, 2015, 3:37 pm
Hi Lona – I know it’s an exercise in futility … as a friend said in another thread: one can lead a horse to the well but one can’t force it to drink. How adequate. But who knows … Bob might be inclined at some point to check out some of the links and info and not see any more everything from the Zionist viewpoint only but also from the Jewish and non-Jewish viewpoint?

On one subject you err – hope you don’t mind me saying so.

“They are the cheap laborers for the oil states, allowed to work their fingers to the bone, but never allowed to become a citizen of those states.”

While your last part is correct you probably don’t know that this rule applies to all foreigners who work in the so-called oil states = Gulf States. None of them grants citizenship to foreigners. There is an exception of which I know (and there probably are a few more no doubt) but this had pure political reasons. Sheikh Yousef Al Qaradawi (an Egyptian scholar) for one had been given Qatari citizenship for political reasons. But in normal cases no citizenship for foreigners even if they work there for say … 30 years.

Yet on the other hand, ALL foreigners enjoy the same benefits like free schooling for their kids, free healthcare, no taxes, etc. Exceptions are that they can’t own a business – they need a sponsor and 51% local partner (I’m not sure about the latter if this percentage is still everywhere in place) and they can’t own land (but in Dubai they can buy apartments for example). Then you have those who do low menial jobs and of which we hear ever so often in the news, lately in Qatar. These are on different contracts (modern day slaves) but even they have access to free health care, no taxes and could get put their kids in free schools – except naturally that their contracts don’t extend to having their families with them. But this is a different subject which nobody really wants to address as on both ends too many people make a handsome profit.

I have lived in Gulf States for many years and can assure you that you find among others Palestinians on all levels incl. top management of oil companies (Government) as well as private companies.

Stay safe!
 

Eleonora Oldani (37)
Sunday May 17, 2015, 3:48 pm

Hi Evelyn ;-) - I knew I read this "horse drinking" statement from you somewhere ... it's a good one and so appropriate!

You put your finger on the wound with your comment, my dear. Total disinterest in truth when it's inconvenient - yes; I would even go further and state clearly: if it's not the Zionist truth. Whatever that is - it is sacro sanct.

"Are such movements only hate crimes if the illegal Israeli settlement products & related oppressive businesses are targetted?" Absolutely! This is simply a no-no! BDS is perfectly fine - even actively pursued by the States and Israel ... rather demanded and states are blackmailed in adhering to it if USrael wants it ... but Israel is as always above any normal standard.

Go figure ...

In a way Bob and his reactions remind me of my kid's days. When there was something I was uncomfortable with (when I did something wrong) I used to say "I close my eyes and then YOU can't see me" - according to my Mama I did this when I was little but then grew out of it ...

;-)
 

Bible Letonn S. (0)
Thursday November 5, 2015, 7:35 pm
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